Neurologist Says Kip Kinkle Probably Schizophrenic
Maggie
Kinkel's Brain Has Signs of Illness
By JEFF BARNARD
.c The Associated Press
EUGENE, Ore. (AP) - A neurologist testified Thursday that there are ``holes''
in school shooter Kip Kinkel's brain that could be related to mental illness.
Dr. Richard J. Konkol, chairman of pediatric neurology at the Kaiser Permanente
Northwest Health Plan, testified that a scan of Kinkel's brain revealed areas
of reduced blood flow - or ``holes'' - especially in the frontal lobe, the seat
of emotional control and decision-making.
Last year, Kinkel killed his parents and went on a shooting rampage at Thurston
High School in Springfield that left two fellow students dead and 25 wounded.
He abandoned an insanity defense and pleaded guilty in September to four counts
of murder and 26 counts of attempted murder. In his plea bargain, Kinkel, 17,
agreed to serve 25 years for the murders, but it remains up to Judge Jack
Mattison whether to extend the sentence by up to 220 years by tacking on
additional years for the attempted murders.
Konkol, testifying for the defense, said the scan appeared to back up a child
psychologist's diagnosis of Kinkel as a paranoid schizophrenic. Konkol said he
believed the cause of the brain damage was developmental, and perhaps genetic.
The neurologist was followed by a private investigator, Joyce Naffziger, who
said she had found frequent cases of mental illness - including schizophrenia -
in Kinkel's extended family. Four out of five first cousins on Kinkel's
mother's side had been institutionalized, she said.
A child psychologist also testified Thursday that Kinkel's fascination with
guns and bombs and his strained relationship with his father led the teen's
mother to bring him for treatment. The psychologist, Jeffrey Hicks, said he
found Kinkel extremely depressed and angry, but not psychotic.
Kinkel began taking the antidepressant drug Prozac in 1997, but earlier court
exchanges have indicated he stopped taking it before the shootings.
Maggie
"A lot of people mistake a short memory for a clear conscience."--Doug Larson
Every9man
/From the AP:
/Kinkel's Brain Has Signs of Illness
/By JEFF BARNARD
/.c The Associated Press
/EUGENE, Ore. (AP) - A neurologist testified Thursday that there are ``holes''
in school shooter Kip Kinkel's brain that could be related to mental illness.
Dr. Richard J. Konkol, chairman of pediatric neurology at the Kaiser Permanente
Northwest Health Plan, testified that a scan of Kinkel's brain revealed areas
of reduced blood flow - or ``holes'' - especially in the frontal lobe, the seat
of emotional control and decision-making.
/Last year, Kinkel killed his parents and went on a shooting rampage at
Thurston
/High School in Springfield that left two fellow students dead and 25 wounded.
/He abandoned an insanity defense and pleaded guilty in September to four
counts
/of murder and 26 counts of attempted murder. In his plea bargain, Kinkel, 17,
/agreed to serve 25 years for the murders, but it remains up to Judge Jack
/Mattison whether to extend the sentence by up to 220 years by tacking on
additional years for the attempted murders.
/Konkol, testifying for the defense, said the scan appeared to back up a child
psychologist's diagnosis of Kinkel as a paranoid schizophrenic. Konkol said he
/believed the cause of the brain damage was developmental, and perhaps genetic.
/The neurologist was followed by a private investigator, Joyce Naffziger, who
said she had found frequent cases of mental illness - including schizophrenia -
in Kinkel's extended family. Four out of five first cousins on Kinkel's
/mother's side had been institutionalized, she said.
/A child psychologist also testified Thursday that Kinkel's fascination with
guns and bombs and his strained relationship with his father led the teen's
/mother to bring him for treatment. The psychologist, Jeffrey Hicks, said he
/found Kinkel extremely depressed and angry, but not psychotic.
/Kinkel began taking the antidepressant drug Prozac in 1997, but earlier court
/exchanges have indicated he stopped taking it before the shootings.
/Maggie
Its a shame that we lock adults up, no less kids, who are mentally ill where
they will get no treatment or at the very best, a poor imitation of it.
I'd really like to see a way to separate people like this from society but
treat them in a secure therapeutic setting.
I do think the entire "justice" system is upside down when we choose to punish
someone for what they do when they are probably not in full control of their
actions.
We seem to have given up on much of the next generation.
I wonder why they didnt do genetic testing on Kip.
Barbara
Maggie
>I wonder why they didnt do genetic testing on Kip.
***What kind? I didn't think a schizophrenia gene had been discovered. Has
it?
Every9man
From: maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie)
barbara said:
>I wonder why they didnt do genetic testing on Kip.
***What kind? I didn't think a schizophrenia gene had been discovered. Has
it?
Maggie
I wasnt clear Maggie. I dont know if a schizophrenia gene has been discovered
or not, I doubt it.
What I was referring to was the testimony that Kip might have some kind of
genetic defect or something on that order. ( I dont have a copy of the original
post handy).
If they suspected that he had a genetic defect and not just those schizphrenic
"holes",in his brain, it would make sense to find out what the defect is dont
you think?
Of course as I am finishing Jack Olsen's Misbeggoten Son I am taken with the
many tests which included genetic testing done on Arthur Shawcross. I have a
few pages to go but so far it looks like they found two things wrong with him
just before the trial that the doctors had never looked for no less found
before -one was a genetic defect and one was biological. There was some
indication that both defects could very well have contributed to Shawcross's
behaviour.
I'd love it if they would be able to find some way of predicting violent
behaviour but then again if they did, the whole issue would be fraught with
all kinds of problems , kind of like Gattaca.
Barbara
Maggie
>>I wonder why they didnt do genetic testing on Kip.
>
>***What kind? I didn't think a schizophrenia gene had been discovered.
> Has
>it?
barbara said:
>I wasnt clear Maggie. I dont know if a schizophrenia gene has been discovered
>or not, I doubt it.
>What I was referring to was the testimony that Kip might have some kind
>of
>genetic defect or something on that order. ( I dont have a copy of the
original
>post handy).
>If they suspected that he had a genetic defect and not just those schizphrenic
>"holes",in his brain, it would make sense to find out what the defect is
>dont
>you think?
***I think the implication was that his *schizophrenia* was genetic. The
genetic stuff was mentioned right after that part in the article where the
writer discussed Mrs. Kinkle's cousins who had been institutionalized.
When a disease is identified as genetic, that doesn't mean that gene studies
will identify it. We all know that depression, schizophrenia,
obsessive-compulsive disorder, bi-polar syndrome and lots of other diseases can
have genetic bases, but they can't yet be identified in any genetic tests (as
far as I know). I believe other diseases like Tourette's Syndrome, Alzeimers
and diabetes also fall into this same category.
barbara said:
>Of course as I am finishing Jack Olsen's Misbeggoten Son I am taken with
>the
>many tests which included genetic testing done on Arthur Shawcross. I have
>a
>few pages to go but so far it looks like they found two things wrong with
>him
>just before the trial that the doctors had never looked for no less found
>before -one was a genetic defect and one was biological. There was some
>indication that both defects could very well have contributed to Shawcross's
>behaviour.
>I'd love it if they would be able to find some way of predicting violent
>behaviour but then again if they did, the whole issue would be fraught
>with
>all kinds of problems , kind of like Gattaca.
***Agreed.
As far as Misbegotten Son goes, I bet when/if the book is reissued Jack will
remove that stuff about Shawcross having the extra Y chromosome. Back when the
book was written it was generally believed that the existence of an extra Y
indicated a predisposition to violence and criminal behavior. That has since
been disproved--the extra Y can cause ADD and learning disabilities but is not
known to be associated with violence.
Every9man
From: maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie)
>barbara said:
>>I wonder why they didnt do genetic testing on Kip.
>
maggie said:
>***What kind? I didn't think a schizophrenia gene had been discovered.
> Has
>it?
barbara said:
>I wasnt clear Maggie. I dont know if a schizophrenia gene has been discovered
>or not, I doubt it.
>What I was referring to was the testimony that Kip might have some kind
>of
>genetic defect or something on that order. ( I dont have a copy of the
original
>post handy).
>If they suspected that he had a genetic defect and not just those schizphrenic
>"holes",in his brain, it would make sense to find out what the defect is
>dont
>you think?
/***I think the implication was that his *schizophrenia* was genetic. The
/genetic stuff was mentioned right after that part in the article where the
/writer discussed Mrs. Kinkle's cousins who had been institutionalized.
You're right. I looked up the article and apparently I misread it.
/When a disease is identified as genetic, that doesn't mean that gene studies
/will identify it. We all know that depression, schizophrenia,
obsessive-compulsive disorder, bi-polar syndrome and lots of other diseases can
/have genetic bases, but they can't yet be identified in any genetic tests (as
/far as I know). I believe other diseases like Tourette's Syndrome, Alzeimers
/and diabetes also fall into this same category.
Gotcha! I do remember that they were trying to find some kind of genetic test
for , what was it, the propensity for breast cancer? I dont know if they were
successful.
barbara said:
>Of course as I am finishing Jack Olsen's Misbeggoten Son I am taken with
>the
>many tests which included genetic testing done on Arthur Shawcross. I have
>a
>few pages to go but so far it looks like they found two things wrong with
>him
>just before the trial that the doctors had never looked for no less found
>before -one was a genetic defect and one was biological. There was some
>indication that both defects could very well have contributed to Shawcross's
>behaviour.
>I'd love it if they would be able to find some way of predicting violent
>behaviour but then again if they did, the whole issue would be fraught
>with
>all kinds of problems , kind of like Gattaca.
/***Agreed.
/As far as Misbegotten Son goes, I bet when/if the book is reissued Jack will
/remove that stuff about Shawcross having the extra Y chromosome. Back when
the
book was written it was generally believed that the existence of an extra /Y
/indicated a predisposition to violence and criminal behavior. That has since
/been disproved--the extra Y can cause ADD and learning disabilities but is not
/known to be associated with violence.
Has it? I remember a big brouhaha about the extra Y chromosome awhile ago and I
remember you posting on it months and months ago but I didnt follow what you
were talking about.
After reading the book I have a much better understanding of what the ensuing
controversy was about thanks to Jack.
However, the book itself describes all the exhaustive research done by Dr.
Kraus in which exeriments did show that there was a link between the extra Y
chromosome and violence but I guess they never were able to prove that it was a
causal link.
The book was published in 1993. Was the extra Y chromosome controversy long
after that?
I think I am looking for the perfect way to explain behaviour and Lord knows
perhaps I should know better.
Barbara
Maggie
>/As far as Misbegotten Son goes, I bet when/if the book is reissued Jack
>will
>/remove that stuff about Shawcross having the extra Y chromosome. Back
>when
>the
>book was written it was generally believed that the existence of an extra
>/Y
>/indicated a predisposition to violence and criminal behavior. That has
>since
>/been disproved--the extra Y can cause ADD and learning disabilities but
>is not
>/known to be associated with violence.
>Has it? I remember a big brouhaha about the extra Y chromosome awhile ago
>and I
>remember you posting on it months and months ago but I didnt follow what
>you
>were talking about.
>After reading the book I have a much better understanding of what the ensuing
>controversy was about thanks to Jack.
>However, the book itself describes all the exhaustive research done by Dr.
>Kraus in which exeriments did show that there was a link between the extra
>Y
>chromosome and violence but I guess they never were able to prove that it
>was a
> causal link.
>The book was published in 1993. Was the extra Y chromosome controversy long
>after that?
>I think I am looking for the perfect way to explain behaviour and Lord knows
>perhaps I should know better.
***I'm not into intensive internet searches these days, but my first try turned
up this from the XYY Bulletin Board. In order to validate it, I suppose one
would have to check all the articles referenced, but here's the URL:
http://ajoupath.ajou.ac.kr/bulletin/criminal.html
and here is the page:
AN EXTRA Y CHROMOSONE DOES NOT EQUAL CRIMINAL/VIOLENT BEHAVIOUR.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
We understand that there are still a number of people who query the supposed
link between XYY and Criminal/Violent Behaviour.
There have been a number of research projects into all aspects of sex
chromosome anomalies. These include XYY, XXY, XXX and 45X. Since the original
research into XYY incorrectly raised the possibility of a criminal link, the
later studies have looked at this question, ALL have found there is NO LINK!
RESEARCH SHOWING THERE IS NO LINK TO CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR:-
Martha F Leonard M.D
Sara Sparrow Ph.D.
Of Yale Child Study Centre, Dept of Paediatrics', Yale University Medical
School, New Haven, Connecticut, 06510
"New Haven Study IV Adolescence"
Excerpt from conclusion: -
"No consistent effect on personality was observed in particular, the boys with
XYY Karyotype have shown no severe or unusual aggressive or delinquent
tendencies up to the age of 17/18, Compared to their siblings the XXY boys or
the comparison group"
A Freyen MRC Psych
A O'Connor MRC Psych
Central Mental Hospital, Dundrum, Dublin Ireland
These doctors have produced a research paper that concluded: -
"There are many factors contributing to violent behaviour. Possession of XYY
does not itself predispose one to criminal or violent behaviour."
Johannes Nielsen and Alice Theilgaard.
The Turner Centre, Risskov, Denmark
Shirley G Ratcliffe MRC
Clinical and Population Cytogenetics Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh,
Scotland, England.
Natalie Paul
March of Dimes Birth Defects Foundation, White Palms, New York.
Many of the above are now retired, but their research is still available. We
are aware there are a small number of men with XYY who are serving custodial
sentences, but as researchers point our there are many reasons for
criminal/violent behaviour and the presence of an extra Y chromosome is not
one.
It must be emphasised that the vast majority of XYY men live normal socially
acceptable lives. To site chromosome makeup as a reason for criminal behaviour,
is as wrong and offensive as it would be to site ethnic/racial background as a
reason for criminal behaviour.
We hope this puts reader's minds at rest and answers the question of XYY and
crime/violence and gives a starting point to your own research.
Maggie
taco
http://www.health-center.com/english/brain/schiz/genetics.htm
This site gives a summary of stats on schizophrenia.
taco
Fernando Melendez
wrote:
_______________________
I know a family in which ALL members are Presbyterians. They claim
that this has been the case for over six generations. Although I have
nothing against Presbyterians, I'm glad I don't have that gene.
Fernando
JesusBled4U
***** What a passive aggressive comment. (?). Your reply is a Insulting,
Flat as a tire, Off topic, attempted "joke". You say you have "nothing
Against Presbyterians". Uh huh. Schizophrenic is what Your half wit reply
is. Yes, hopefully you don't have that gene. *Slim- (whose father is an
ordained Presbyterian minister).
PattyC4303
how DUMB the original neurologist's comments sounded.
Sure, there is some "evidence" that there are familial tendencies with
schizophrenia. Just as there are with lots of other things, like MS, for
example. That is not in any way the same as "genetic," such as with Cystic
Fibrosis or Tay Sachs.
Besides, he was talking about viewing info on a scan (MRI, CT?) and noting
"holes" in the frontal lobes. Usually, it's not described so simplistically,
but that is generally a sign of at least some level of brain damage. While
organic brain damage sure can cause behavioral symptoms.. I am NOT getting the
link to shizophrenia, which is not usually considered as a diagnosis by
objective findings on diagnostic tests like x-rays, blood tests, etc.
I would suggest a Neurologist who is diagnosing Schizophrenia, is not so
professional to begin with. It's not his field of expertise, for sure.
PattyC
Fernando Melendez
_________________________
Hi, JesusBled4U? (Slim?):
I am sorry if my post offended you. I was trying to illustrate the
point that just because some aspect of human behavior might "run in
families" it does not mean that such behavior is genetically based. In
no was my post intended as an "attack" on anything or anybody, and I
regret you took offense from it. Maybe you could discuss the post
with your father and let him explain how tolerance and lightness act
as buffers that protect us from being rubbed too hard as a result of
our belief systems.
Fernando
Maggie
***I suspect this is another bought and paid for expert; OTOH, I wouldn't be
the least bit surprised if he's right--Kinkel is schizophrenic.
And why shouldn't a neurologist diagnose schizophrenia? As I understand it,
the line between psychiatry and neurology is becoming very blurred as more and
more illnesses which were once thought of as "all in the mind" (like
schizophrenia) are now known to have a very large organic component.
PattyC4303
maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie) writes:
PC said
I would suggest a Neurologist who is diagnosing Schizophrenia, is not so
>>professional to begin with. It's not his field of expertise, for sure.
>
>***I suspect this is another bought and paid for expert; OTOH, I wouldn't be
>the least bit surprised if he's right--Kinkel is schizophrenic.
>
>And why shouldn't a neurologist diagnose schizophrenia? As I understand it,
>the line between psychiatry and neurology is becoming very blurred as more
>and
>more illnesses which were once thought of as "all in the mind" (like
>schizophrenia) are now known to have a very large organic component.
>
>Maggie
Because, Maggie, a neurologist knows about the medical aspects of the brain and
spinal cord. A PSYCHIATRIRST knows what constitutes schizophrenia.
Not sure to what you are refrerring when you say the lines between neurology
and psychiatry are blurring. I don't know that is the case. One is sooo
medical, and the other is so much about subjective symptoms. I would say it's
likely any good neurologist would say, ask a psychiatrist.
As to the actual thoughts about schizophrenia, I bet the "diagnosis" is also
right. And say, I would also have come up with the diagnosis, based on the
stuff told. Just saying, for the "record," I would like to hear that from a
real expert. Both I and the neurologist are not those, as to schizophrenia.
I know this kid Kip Kenkel is hateful and done awful things. But I do think he
is nuts, and think it is so sad that such a young boy is such a mess, and done
such wrong things. Would only wish to know what the parents went thu with
this one.
PattyC
Fernando Melendez
>
>Because, Maggie, a neurologist knows about the medical aspects of the brain and
>spinal cord. A PSYCHIATRIRST knows what constitutes schizophrenia.
>
>Not sure to what you are refrerring when you say the lines between neurology
>and psychiatry are blurring. I don't know that is the case. One is sooo
>medical, and the other is so much about subjective symptoms. I would say it's
>likely any good neurologist would say, ask a psychiatrist.
>
>As to the actual thoughts about schizophrenia, I bet the "diagnosis" is also
>right. And say, I would also have come up with the diagnosis, based on the
>stuff told. Just saying, for the "record," I would like to hear that from a
>real expert. Both I and the neurologist are not those, as to schizophrenia.
>
>I know this kid Kip Kenkel is hateful and done awful things. But I do think he
>is nuts, and think it is so sad that such a young boy is such a mess, and done
>such wrong things. Would only wish to know what the parents went thu with
>this one.
>
>PattyC
________________________
Hold that thought and consider the theory of nominal determinism and
how, at times, names cause people to experience profound attractions
toward those with either similar names (Flick and Flack come to mind)
or quite different ones (Gilbert, Sullivan). Now consider the name of
the neurologist (Konkol) and the name of his patient (Kinkel). Need I
say more? Of course not.
Fernando
Maggie
>
>I would suggest a Neurologist who is diagnosing Schizophrenia, is not so
>>>professional to begin with. It's not his field of expertise, for sure.
>>
>>***I suspect this is another bought and paid for expert; OTOH, I wouldn't
>be
>>the least bit surprised if he's right--Kinkel is schizophrenic.
>>
>>And why shouldn't a neurologist diagnose schizophrenia? As I understand
>it,
>>the line between psychiatry and neurology is becoming very blurred as more
>>and
>>more illnesses which were once thought of as "all in the mind" (like
>>schizophrenia) are now known to have a very large organic component.
PattyC said:
>Because, Maggie, a neurologist knows about the medical aspects of the brain
>and
>spinal cord. A PSYCHIATRIRST knows what constitutes schizophrenia.
>
>Not sure to what you are refrerring when you say the lines between neurology
>and psychiatry are blurring. I don't know that is the case. One is sooo
>medical, and the other is so much about subjective symptoms. I would say
>it's
>likely any good neurologist would say, ask a psychiatrist.
***I think you're probably right about that. But my impression is that an MRI
is more the provence of a neurologist than a psychiatrist, and if
schizophrenic's brains show changes that are visible on an MRI, wouldn't a
neurologist normally make that diagnosis? I know there are
diseases--Tourette's Syndrome is one--that were once thought to be psychiatric,
but are now known to be neurological (and this without *any* changes seen in an
MRI). I can't believe it's the only one of these type of illnesses to be in
that category.
Leigh Ann
be diagnosed by the presence or absence of symptoms (i.e.
hallucinations and delusions), there ARE neurological oddities that
suggest schizophrenia as well. For instance, the brain ventricles
(holes for the blood vessels in the brain) are enlarged in
schizophrenics. There also appears to be an overabundance (or
overactivity) of dopamine in their brains, either of which is likely to
be noted by an MRI.
Leigh Ann
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Maggie
>Although the major symptoms of schizophrenia are subjective and tend to
>be diagnosed by the presence or absence of symptoms (i.e.
>hallucinations and delusions), there ARE neurological oddities that
>suggest schizophrenia as well. For instance, the brain ventricles
>(holes for the blood vessels in the brain) are enlarged in
>schizophrenics. There also appears to be an overabundance (or
>overactivity) of dopamine in their brains, either of which is likely to
>be noted by an MRI.
***Thanks, Leigh Ann.
Fernando Melendez
wrote:
_____________________________
Sorry to tell you, Maggie, but Leigh Ann is mistaken in her post.
Thank her for "effort" if you like, but she is passing on
misinformation. The brain ventricles are not " holes for the blood
vessels in the brain," but rather four chambers in the brain the walls
of which produce the cerebrospinal fluid that circulates through the
brain and the spinal cord. Some schizophrenics may have mildly
enlarged ventricles, and so do a lot of normal people. Most
schizophrenics have ventricles which are normal in size. The
"choroid plexus," which is the lining of the ventricles, is rich in
blood vessels, but there is no blood circulating in the cerebrospinal
fluid of normal people, and the ventricles are definitely not "holes
for blood vessels." Also, the MRI is not capable of detecting brain
dopamine or any other neurotransmitters.
Fernando
Maggie
>>>Although the major symptoms of schizophrenia are subjective and tend to
>>>be diagnosed by the presence or absence of symptoms (i.e.
>>>hallucinations and delusions), there ARE neurological oddities that
>>>suggest schizophrenia as well. For instance, the brain ventricles
>>>(holes for the blood vessels in the brain) are enlarged in
>>>schizophrenics. There also appears to be an overabundance (or
>>>overactivity) of dopamine in their brains, either of which is likely to
>>>be noted by an MRI.
>>
>>***Thanks, Leigh Ann.
Fernando said:
>Sorry to tell you, Maggie, but Leigh Ann is mistaken in her post.
>Thank her for "effort" if you like, but she is passing on
>misinformation. The brain ventricles are not " holes for the blood
>vessels in the brain," but rather four chambers in the brain the walls
>of which produce the cerebrospinal fluid that circulates through the
>brain and the spinal cord. Some schizophrenics may have mildly
>enlarged ventricles, and so do a lot of normal people. Most
>schizophrenics have ventricles which are normal in size. The
>"choroid plexus," which is the lining of the ventricles, is rich in
>blood vessels, but there is no blood circulating in the cerebrospinal
>fluid of normal people, and the ventricles are definitely not "holes
>for blood vessels." Also, the MRI is not capable of detecting brain
>dopamine or any other neurotransmitters.
***Thank *you*, Fernando.
Debby
S.<sarg...@injersey.com>
Every9man wrote:
> I wonder why they didnt do genetic testing on Kip.
> Barbara
Every9man
inherited?
Barbara
Debby
of Altzheimers. Debby S.<sarg...@injersey.com>
GLC1173
>No I am saying that the brain pattern did >show that he had early stages
>of Altzheimers.
Has anyone that age ever been diagnosed as having Alzheimer's? Is there any
record of such in the medical literature?
Did Kinkel have any of the symptoms typical of Alzheimers - like memory loss
- before he became notorious?
=======================================================
<B>Dissident news - plus immigration, gun rights, Y2K
<I> Al Gore and Bill Bradley - in their own words</I>
<A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT</A></b>
Every9man
a sign of Alzheimers.
I dont know much about Alzheimers. Ithink that it is caused by a hardening of
the arteries, thus a reduced blood flow.
The reduced blood flow they are referring to here is in the frontal lobe which
as they say, controls emotional control and decision making.
If I am not mistaken one of the symptoms of Alzheimers is loss of memory , and
a general disorientation. I dont know that the frontal lobe of the brain is the
one affected.
Barbara
From: Debby <sarg...@injersey.com>
Dear Barb: No I am saying that the brain pattern did show that he had early
stages
Fernando Melendez
>Debby wrote:
>>No I am saying that the brain pattern did >show that he had early stages
>>of Altzheimers.
>
> Has anyone that age ever been diagnosed as having Alzheimer's?
Without even knowing the exact age of Kinkel, but knowing the amount
of misdiagnosis around, surely the answer is yes. There is a
childhood disorder called "progeria" which results in premature aging
starting at about age 4 with death expected at puberty. The children
develop all the signs of aging, including white hair, wrinkles and
atherosclerosis. However, the do not have the neurofibrillary tangles
and the plaque associated with the brains of senior Alzheimer
patients, as far as I know. Hutchison- Gilford syndrome is the name of
childhood progeria. There is another kind in which the sudden aging
takes place in early adulthood and follows the same rapid course as
the childhood variety. It is called Werner's syndrome.
There are many dementias that can occur, some of them at a fairly
young age. Ultimately, the proper differential diagnosis between many
of these dementias can only be made at autopsy.
Fernando
Every9man
From: maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie)
http://ajoupath.ajou.ac.kr/bulletin/criminal.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maggie
I finally got a chance to look at this stuff Maggie. I cant get through to the
web site, it says "invalid request".
I'll do a search. what did you use to search, "XYY chromosome? "
BTW, it wasnt only the XYY chromosome that the doctor said was one of the
causes of Shawcross's violent behaviour. He also mentioned the elevated
krypopyrrole. Apparently the combination of the two is quite rare and both
according to the studies he referred to were causes of violence.
I'm assuming the studies you referenced were done after the case was over.
Barbara
Every9man
From: Leigh Ann <leighann...@teacher.com.invalid>
Date: Sun, 07 November 1999 02:50 AM EST
Message-id: <0a0133f8...@usw-ex0101-004.remarq.com>
Although the major symptoms of schizophrenia are subjective and tend to
be diagnosed by the presence or absence of symptoms (i.e.
hallucinations and delusions), there ARE neurological oddities that
suggest schizophrenia as well. For instance, the brain ventricles
(holes for the blood vessels in the brain) are enlarged in
schizophrenics. There also appears to be an overabundance (or
overactivity) of dopamine in their brains, either of which is likely to
be noted by an MRI.
Leigh Ann
Thanks Leigh Ann.
I am not sure how an MRI can detect the presence of dopamine though. I would
have imagined it would take a blood test.
Barbara
JIGSAW1695
GLC1173
>> Has anyone that age ever been >>diagnosed as having Alzheimer's?
and replied:
>There are many dementias that can >occur, some of them at a fairly
>young age. Ultimately, the proper >differential diagnosis between many
>of these dementias can only be made at >autopsy.
Then any neurologist who tells jurors that Kip Kinkel has early Alzheimers
is, at best, dishonest - because nobody can be sure of that for a long while,
and because Kinkel is kind of young for a typical Alzheimer's patient.
My elderly mother clearly has dementia (and is in a nursing home at age 77)
- but nobody asked can tell for sure if she has Alzheimer's or is just senile
from having had multiple ministrokes plus three major strokes. So who can tell
whether young Kinkel - even if he has some dementia - is a victim of
Alzheimer's, without any autopsy to guide the doctor?
Fernando Melendez
______________________________
Are you suggesting an early autopsy to settle the issue?
Umm!
Fernando
Maggie
>I finally got a chance to look at this stuff Maggie. I cant get through
>to the
>web site, it says "invalid request".
>I'll do a search. what did you use to search, "XYY chromosome? "
***Keep trying the URL, just in case there were some one-time problems going
on. I got in no problem, just now.
<A
HREF="http://ajoupath.ajou.ac.kr/bulletin/criminal.html">http://ajoupath.a
jou.ac.kr/bulletin/criminal.html</A>
As for my search terms, I'm thinking I used chromosome, extra and violence (or
violent). Good luck.
Maggie
>Barbara said:
>>I finally got a chance to look at this stuff Maggie. I cant get through
>>to the
>>web site, it says "invalid request".
>>I'll do a search. what did you use to search, "XYY chromosome? "
>
>***Keep trying the URL, just in case there were some one-time problems going
>on. I got in no problem, just now.
>
http://ajoupath.ajou.ac.kr/bulletin/criminal.html
Victor Hunter
not Altzheimer's Disease, which is usually a disease of much older people. 38
is about the youngest I have heard of someone with Altzheimer's and that kind
is usually hereditary. It can only be diagnosed for sure by cutting open the
person's head after death. Schizophrenia can cause brain shrinkage and loss of
intelligence. I was a psychiatric technician and would like to be a criminal
defense attorney because I have seen how these people with defective brains get
into trouble with the police and punishment doesn't help much becuase they just
don't have what it takes to live a normal life.
GLC1173
>I was a psychiatric technician and would >like to be a criminal
>defense attorney because I have seen >how these people with defective brains
>get
>into trouble with the police and >punishment doesn't help much becuase >they
>just
>don't have what it takes to live a normal >life.
Then they need to be locked up, forever, and not "deinstitutionalized."
You have made the best possible argument against "deinstitutionalizing"
them.
DedNdogYrs
have made the best possible argument against "deinstitutionalizing" them.>
I don't think people should be locked up who have committed no crime. I live
in Glendale, Calif. where there are something like 100 known homeless people
living in the street. The majority are mentally ill or brain damaged. The
mayor's office is trying to set up a program where they can be encouraged to
apply for Social Security disability benefits and possibly live in a board and
care home. Unfortunately, some of them have children or beloved pets and that
needs to be addressed. Rents are very high here and some people on SSI (Social
Security for people with no work credits) are living in vehicles and make-shift
shelters.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
? ? ?
Dogs & children first.
JIGSAW1695
Date: Thu, 11 November 1999 06:05 PM EST
Message-id: <19991111180524...@ng-fd1.aol.com>
From Jigsaw: <sadqqqwaaaawwwAAA ssaaaeqqqqqqQ>
? ? ?
=============================
Huh????????????
Send me a copy please.
Jigsaw