JBR: Transcript of the John Douglas Interview
Maggie8097
at any point. Incidentally, I believe this transcript is somewhat redacted--I
specifically remember Douglas saying that John Ramsey was in the shower when
Patsy found the note. Does anyone else recall this?
January 30, 1997
The following is a transcript of the opening of segment of "Dateline
NBC" aired Tuesday night, January 28, 1997. It is presented here by
permission and is copyrighted by NBC. Any use of this material must
credit NBC. It is offered here simply as a convenience to members of the
news media who've expressed interest in it, and we will have no comment
on the substance of the interview.
SHOW: Dateline NBC
DATE: January 28, 1997
PROFILER
Announcer: From Studio 3B in Rockefeller Center, here is Jane Pauley.
JANE PAULEY: Good evening. In just a few minutes we'll have the latest
on today's developments at the O.J. Simpson trial, and we'll hear, for
the first time, what O.J. Simpson said during the Bronco chase. But
first, an exclusive inside look into the investigation into the murder
of JonBenet Ramsey. It comes from the man who helped invent the
technique of criminal profiling. He's been brought into the case to
create a profile of the person who murdered JonBenet. Now, more than a
month since her murder, police have little new to say about the case,
but this former FBI agent does. Here's Chris Hansen with tonight's
DATELINE Exclusive.
Mr. JOHN DOUGLAS: I sat down across the table from some of the country's
greatest liars--in the world, really--and I can sense it and if things
just did not fit. The crime scene data just doesn't--doesn't fit.
CHRIS HANSEN reporting: (Voiceover) John Douglas, the pioneer of
criminal personality profiling, is offering the first insiders view into
the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation. Douglas was called into the
case, not by police, but by lawyers retained by the little girl's
parents.
(Hansen and Douglas; JonBenet; JonBenet's parents)
HANSEN: Why did they hire you?
Mr. DOUGLAS: They hired me to, basically, do an independent analysis in
hopes of determining who was responsible for the death of the daughter.
And I said, `I will give you an independent analysis, but you may not
like what I have to say.'
HANSEN: And that's because when he arrived here in Boulder he
immediately suspected the Ramseys. Although Douglas was limited by
authorities on what evidence he could see, he was allowed in the house.
He was briefed on the autopsy report, and he saw a photocopy of the
so-called ransom note. And most importantly he was given access to the
Ramseys and experience told him, `Look very closely at the parents.'
(Voiceover) Mr. Douglas' 25 years of groundbreaking criminal profiling
research with the FBI led to important breaks in dozens of major cases.
He studied and interviewed scores of serial killers. He accurately
profiled the Unabomber suspect years ago, and he was the inspiration for
the character of agent Jack Crawford in the film "The Silence of the
Lambs." Douglas' new book, "Journey Into Darkness," was written before
JonBenet Ramsey was murdered, but for him, the Ramsey case was like so
many others. He first focused on the victim.
(FBI Academy; Douglas driving; scene from "Silence of the Lambs"; book;
photo of JonBenet)
DOUGLAS: When you look at the victim you ask yourself the question, `Why
was this victim the victim of a violent crime?' This is a low-risk
victim--I mean, killed in her home, taken from her bed, and disposed
of--placed in the--in the cellar.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) The basic facts of the case are well known.
Six-year-old JonBenet Ramsey was put to bed around 9:00 Christmas night.
The next morning her mother, Patsy, says she finds a ransom note and
discovers that JonBenet is missing. Hours later the father, John Ramsey,
finds his daughter strangled in the basement of efforts the house.
(JonBenet singing; Ramsey house)
Mr. DOUGLAS: Generally speaking, when--when you do have homicides
perpetrated in a residents the primary suspects will always and should
be family.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) Although the Boulder Police Department is releasing
no information about the investigation, Douglas says it was clear to him
that the Ramseys were the chief suspects when he arrived. So, for
Douglas, it was critically important to interview the parents.
(Police department; Ramseys talking to bishop)
HANSEN: How much time did you spend talking to Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey?
Mr. DOUGLAS: About four or five hours.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) For Douglas, that interview, two weeks after
JonBenet was found murdered would prove to be crucial in forming his
opinions, because he knew that whoever committed the crime had to have
intimate knowledge of the Ramseys' million dollar home.
(Douglas; Ramsey house)
Mr. DOUGLAS: I was really surprised when I--when I went in the house,
because it is and so compartmentalized. There's 15 rooms.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) The parents' bedroom is on the third floor. From
there, two staircases lead down to the four bedrooms on the second floor
where JonBenet and her nine-year-old brother were sleeping.
(Inside Ramsey home)
Mr. DOUGLAS: What s--struck me as really unusual is that--is that
the--the bedrooms--the family's, mother and father's bedrooms were so
far away on that third floor that even if you weren't a sound sleeper,
to have difficulty hearing any noise on the second floor, because it is
so far removed.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) The Ramseys told Douglas that they all went to bed
very early Christmas night, because they were planning to fly to their
other home in Michigan the next morning.
(Ramsey home)
Mr. DOUGLAS: Mr. Ramsey gets up, takes a. The mother gets up to go
downstairs to make some coffee. Goes down the st--spiral staircase. The
last step, there's three pages of the letter, starts reading it, doesn't
know what it is, then--and then she starts screaming. And Mr. Ramsey
comes down, and--and, you know, the instructions are, don't contact the
FBI, don't contact the police.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) But the police are called. They search the house,
but don't check a small basement room. Hours later a distraught John
Ramsey goes to the basement and discovers his daughter's body.
(Ramsey home)
Mr. DOUGLAS: And everyone hears him screaming upstairs, `My God, my
baby!' And--and grabs the child, removes the duct tape, and then carries
the child up stairs where they're trying to resuscitate the--the child.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) The Ramseys described to Douglas the horrific
details of what they said happened in those next few frantic moments.
(Ramsey home)
Mr. DOUGLAS: It was a real emotional scene as for the family putting a
child down in front of the Christmas tree as they're trying to, you
know, rub the shower skin, the body is--the body is cold. And ever--the
mother is hysterical, the father's hysterical, the minister's there, and
the neighbors are running in and out. And so there really isn't a crime
scene.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) The crime scene and JonBenet's body were now
contaminated by the family's desperate to help the little girl. But
Douglas says the parents' story contains important clues.
(Police carrying body away)
Mr. DOUGLAS: Generally, if a parent kills the child they don't want to
be the one to find the child. If they do search, say, in a--in a
residence, they'll get someone else to say, `OK, Frank, you check this
room, I'll be over here checking the other room.' The other thing you
look at is how the child is left. When--when parents kill, they usually
place the child in a very, very peaceful type of look to it. They--they
stage the crime scene.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) Douglas says JonBenet was brutalized, that she had
duct tape on her mouth. She suffered severe head wounds. And she was
strangled and sexually assaulted.
(Police taking body away)
HANSEN: Let me read you a passage from your book. As horrible unnatural
as it is to contemplate, parents do kill their children for a variety of
reasons, and normally when they do so they report them missing or
abducted, leaving a staged scene.
Mr. DOUGLAS: Right.
HANSEN: Isn't it possible that that very passage could apply to this
case?
Mr. DOUGLAS: I didn't see staging there by--by parents. II've never seen
where they put a ligature around a child's neck or have duct tape over
the face and--and left in that--in that condition. I just--I just
haven't--haven't seen that at all.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) And Douglas says the interview with the parents,
which lasted more than four hours, was what ultimately turned him
around.
(Ramseys)
Mr. DOUGLAS: While I'm looking at this--this--this man, Mr. Ramsey, `.
Ramsey, if you did it you are one hell of a liar. You--you are one hell
of a liar if you did it. And you're putting on a great production here.'
But I just don't believe, in my heart, he did this--and not just in my
heart, from what--from the analysis of the--of the scene.
HANSEN: But you're being paid by the Ramsey family?
Mr. DOUGLAS: Right. You can pay me for my time, but you're not going to
pay for my opinion or pay for my--or jeopardize my reputation.
HANSEN: Are you convinced, based upon your experience, that the parents
were not involved in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
Mr. DOUGLAS: What I've seen and experienced, I--I say they were not
involved.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) But if that's the case, it raises more questions. So
far, the parents have yet to give a formal interview to investigators.
(Crime scene)
HANSEN: Your child is killed and you're not going to talk to police?
Mr. DOUGLAS: They did talk to the police the day the child was--was
murdered, or located and--and discovered to be murdered. They did do the
interview. They did give the--the hair evidence and blood evidence.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) Douglas says the Ramseys told him they felt they
were the chief suspects, especially after Boulder officials assured the
public that there was no killer on the loose.
(Press conference)
Mr. DOUGLAS: What they were saying was, `We got the people, they're the
Ramseys. We got them.' So I would have gotten an--wazzu attorneys to
represent me, and they did the right thing.
HANSEN: Did you advise the Ramseys not to take a polygraph?
Mr. DOUGLAS: Right. I--I advised the--the attorneys that they should not
be polygraphed; maybe later on, but not at this point in time. It's too
close. They're still going through a lot of mourning.
HANSEN: If Douglas feels that the Ramseys are not suspects, though, then
who is? Douglas told DATELINE that the three-page note left on a
staircase inside the Ramseys' home is the key piece of evidence. Douglas
feels the note was written as an afterthought, and that the ransom
figure mentioned is an extremely important clue.
The so-called ransom note that was left at the Ramseys' home, demands
$118,000. And we now know that $118,000 is the amount of the bonus John
Ramsey was expecting this year. What does that say to you?
Mr. DOUGLAS: Well, who has this knowledge? The wife didn't have the
knowledge. She doesn't know anything about that. This is money that's
electronically placed in his 401(k) at the end of the--at the end of the
year. So, to me, it's kind of like the manifesto and the Unabomber. It
begins to tell me more about the person who's responsible. This person
has very unique, intimate knowledge about his--his financial workings.
Therefore, the person would have to be somehow related to his--his
employment.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) Mr. Ramsey knew about the bonus, it had been
deposited into his account months before. But Douglas thinks the ransom
note and the murder could be the work of an angry ex-employee. The note
has raised many questions, but Douglas doesn't see much importance in
reports that there was evidence of a practice note in the home, possibly
in a woman's handwriting. But Douglas does think that from all he's been
told by the Ramseys and others, it's important there was no sign of
forced entry and that the killer had to be bold enough to take JonBenet
from her bedroom, and then go down two flights of stairs, and risk
getting cornered in the basement.
(Outside of Ramseys' home; people entering home; outside)
Mr. DOUGLAS: This tells me this is again a certain breed of cat, a
high-risk type of an offender. But to Mr. Ramsey, it--it--it is somebody
who he knows, he knows very, very well, and the anger and aggression is
directed at him more so than--than--than the wife.
HANSEN: But if somebody is so mad at John Ramsey, why not kill John
Ramsey? Why go after and strangle and apparently sexually assault a
six-year-old girl?
Mr. DOUGLAS: Because if they're following the press and what's going on
in Boulder, there's been a lot of publicity that the child is a precious
possession of the Ramseys, and what better way to get back at the
Ramseys is--is to kill that child.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) Douglas says he has provided a much more detailed
profile of possible suspects to Boulder police who have been working
with the FBI. Today, Boulder police spokesman Kelvin McNeal confirmed
the department received Douglas' information, but said detectives are
not ready to say if it has influenced their investigation.
(Douglas; Boulder police station: McNeal talking with Hansen)
Mr. KELVIN McNEAL: This is a murder investigation, and it is important
that our investigating remain extremely focused, and that focus is on
finding out who's responsible and securing a successful prosecution.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) But Douglas remains focused on a piece of evidence
that continues to haunt him--the three-page note apparently left by the
killer.
(Hansen and Douglas walking at night)
Mr. DOUGLAS: Again, I am very prejudiced because of the amount of money,
the 118,000. Is that just a--a fluke, is that--is that just luck that
they picked that money--that--that amount of money? I don't think so.
PAULEY: John Douglas believes that going public with as much information
as possible is the best way to solve this kind of case. When Douglas was
still with the FBI, he once had investigators put up a billboard with a
copy of a ransom note. He says, within hours, someone recognized the
handwriting, and police arrested a suspect.
Maggie
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
John F. Kennedy
RossGetman
I haven't been following recent JBR posts -- or the news -- but thanks very
much for posting the John Douglas interview.
Certainly, Mr. Ramsey would have known
the figure $118,000, and so why, on earth, would Mr. Douglas -- who, note, is
not is not at all qualified as an expert in psychology -- think that it was
exculpatory of the Ramseys?
JBrown6000
Is this what you meant about the shower?
<<Mr. DOUGLAS: Mr. Ramsey gets up, takes a. The mother gets up to go
downstairs to make some coffee. Goes down the st--spiral staircase. The
last step, there's three pages of the letter, starts reading it, doesn't
know what it is, then--and then she starts screaming. And Mr. Ramsey
**The first line (if it's an accurate representation of what was said), looks
like he might have been going to say "shower". This transcript is kind of
choppy though, so maybe he did say shower.
jb
Maggie8097
Is this what you meant about the shower?
<<Mr. DOUGLAS: Mr. Ramsey gets up, takes a. The mother gets up to go
downstairs to make some coffee. Goes down the st--spiral staircase. The
last step, there's three pages of the letter, starts reading it, doesn't
know what it is, then--and then she starts screaming. And Mr. Ramsey
jb says:
**The first line (if it's an accurate representation of what was said), looks
like he might have been going to say "shower". This transcript is kind of
choppy though, so maybe he did say shower.
**Yes. That's what I mean. It also makes me wonder if there was anyting else
cut from the interview (either by NBC or the Ramseys, accidentally or on
purpose).
Martha Sprowles
And the word "shower" pops up later, clearly in the wrong place:
Mr. DOUGLAS: It was a real emotional scene as for the family putting a
child down in front of the Christmas tree as they're trying to, you
know, rub the shower skin, the body is--the body is cold.
^^^^^^
Mothra
Douglas M. Case
maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie8097) wrote:
>It's on the Ramsey family website. I'm copying it below in case it disappears
>at any point. Incidentally, I believe this transcript is somewhat redacted--I
>specifically remember Douglas saying that John Ramsey was in the shower when
>Patsy found the note. Does anyone else recall this?
Never saw the Douglas interview, but I recall that a lot of people
seemed to believe this to be the case around that time. However, in the
Infomercial II interview Patsy said JR was upstairs "dressing". And since
he says he heard her scream, and we all know by now that the house is all
but soundproof, don't we, it's doubtful he'd have heard her with the water
running.
dmc
---------------------
It's no disgrace t' be poor; but it might as well be.
-Kin Hubbard
Cliff and Linda Griffith
> child down in front of the Christmas tree as they're trying to, you
> know, rub the shower skin, the body is--the body is cold.
What is "the shower skin"?
Linda
Cliff and Linda Griffith
Also, he never saw the autopsy report; he was "briefed" on it by the
Ramsey attorneys. His words.
Linda
Wolfenhnd
>Ramsey attorneys. His words.
>
>Linda
Sloppy bit of work, that was. Perhaps he should retire. He sounds
overconfident and careless when he can't even bother to do his own research.
It's too bad too, I had a lot of respect for the man.
***-.._.--**-.._..-.........Wolfenhnd.......-.._..-**--._..---***
WWWoLadyA
>HANSEN: But you're being paid by the Ramsey family?
>
>Mr. DOUGLAS: Right. You can pay me for my time, but you're not going to
>pay for my opinion or pay for my--or jeopardize my reputation.
Bereaved parents probably do not represent a major market for former FBI
criminal profiling experts.
So ....... I don't imagine there is exactly a "going rate"
Whatever the terms are ....... I hope he can retire on it.
Lady A
Maggie8097
>Also, he never saw the autopsy report; he was "briefed" on it by the
>Ramsey attorneys. His words.
>
Sloppy bit of work, that was. Perhaps he should retire. He sounds
overconfident and careless when he can't even bother to do his own research.
It's too bad too, I had a lot of respect for the man.
***In all fairnes to Douglas, in this case, at this time, it would have been
impossible for him to do his own research on the autopsy--it had not been
released to the public at the time he did his interviews. This did not, of
course, stop him from implying he had seen it.
N.A.F. McNelly
wolf...@aol.com (Wolfenhnd) wrote:
> >Also, he never saw the autopsy report; he was "briefed" on it by the
> >Ramsey attorneys. His words.
> >
> >Linda
>
> Sloppy bit of work, that was. Perhaps he should retire. He sounds
> overconfident and careless when he can't even bother to do his own research.
> It's too bad too, I had a lot of respect for the man.
He's good at promoting himself, but has a bad habit of "forgetting"
cases where he's done more harm than good.
He came up with a profile of a rapist-murderer of a little girl in
Canada that just happened to match a next-door neighboor, Guy Paul Morin.
Morin was tried and found not guilty, but the prosecution appealed
(they can do that in Canada), and the appelate court found him guilty.
This dragged on until it was finally determined that the DNA in the
semen from the child was not Morin's. (The police work in this case was
also incredibly shoddy)
Douglas' response was that he still believed Morin was guilty, but
that either the DNA was screwed up or Morin helped someone else rape
the child. Talk about your sore losers ....
......................................................................
Nancy McNelly
http://halfmoon.org Rabbit in the Moon: Mayan Glyphs and Architecture
http://halfmoon.org/borden/ Virtual Lizzie Borden House
Douglas M. Case
maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie8097) wrote:
>***In all fairnes to Douglas, in this case, at this time, it would have been
>impossible for him to do his own research on the autopsy--it had not been
>released to the public at the time he did his interviews. This did not, of
>course, stop him from implying he had seen it.
>
One more time: at a book signing, John Douglas indicated to someone the
exact location of the skull fracture. This was months before the CNN
warrants revealed the presence of that fracture. And since the report
also preceeded them it must have some validity. There have been rumors
that the entire autopsy was given to the Ramsey attorneys right off the
bat. Whether or not that's the case, Douglas had some inside information
from somewhere-the fracture was not visible.
dmc
---------------------
Patience is that virtue which we admire in the driver behind us,
but not in the one in front of us.
-Anonymous
Maggie8097
maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie8097) wrote:
>***In all fairnes to Douglas, in this case, at this time, it would have been
>impossible for him to do his own research on the autopsy--it had not been
>released to the public at the time he did his interviews. This did not, of
>course, stop him from implying he had seen it.
>
dmc said:
One more time: at a book signing, John Douglas indicated to someone the
exact location of the skull fracture. This was months before the CNN
warrants revealed the presence of that fracture. And since the report
also preceeded them it must have some validity. There have been rumors
that the entire autopsy was given to the Ramsey attorneys right off the
bat. Whether or not that's the case, Douglas had some inside information
from somewhere-the fracture was not visible.
***No mystery here. Douglas admitted that he was briefed on the autopsy
results by Ramsey sources (parents or attorneys--I don't know which). Clearly
the authorities had shared the preliminary autopsy information with them.
Douglas M. Case
doria...@aol.com (DorianA123) wrote:
>But didn't the Ramseys demand the autopsy results through their attorneys? I
>seem to remember that was one of their requested items and that it was probably
>turned over by Hunter.
That was considerably after the Douglas episode I relayed. I don't
remember whether it was reported as part of the interview quid pro quo or
not.
>Matter of fact - they might have been automatically entitled to those results
>as the parents of the child.
Actually, Dorian, autopsy results are public record in CO-everybody is
entitled to 'em, which is why it took a court order to seal them. The
Ramseys were not exempted from that ruling.
dmc
---------------------
Ratio of the number of "cigar" references in Kenneth Starr's report to the number of "Whitewater" references: 9:1
Fine that the report's Internet posting might have brought if 1996's Communications Decency Act had become law: $250,000
Percentage of current members of Congress who voted for both the Communications Decency Act and the report's release: 72
Number of pages of the Watergate special prosecutor's report that have been released to the public: 0
source: Harper's Index
DorianA123
>Date: Mon, Oct 26, 1998 13:27 EST
>Message-id: <19981026132720...@ng41.aol.com>
>
>Linda said:
>>Also, he never saw the autopsy report; he was "briefed" on it by the
>>Ramsey attorneys. His words.
>>
>Sloppy bit of work, that was. Perhaps he should retire. He sounds
>overconfident and careless when he can't even bother to do his own research.
>It's too bad too, I had a lot of respect for the man.
>
>impossible for him to do his own research on the autopsy--it had not been
>released to the public at the time he did his interviews. This did not, of
>course, stop him from implying he had seen it.
>
>
But didn't the Ramseys demand the autopsy results through their attorneys? I
seem to remember that was one of their requested items and that it was probably
turned over by Hunter.
Matter of fact - they might have been automatically entitled to those results
as the parents of the child.
Dorian
JBrown6000
<<But didn't the Ramseys demand the autopsy results through their attorneys? I
seem to remember that was one of their requested items and that it was probably
turned over by Hunter.
Matter of fact - they might have been automatically entitled to those results
as the parents of the child.
**That certainly seems likely. I would think that I would have access to my
child's autopsy report.
jb