UPDATE: 2 Yr. Old Who Fell to Death from Chimney Rock
tiny dancer
Posted: May. 30 4:51 p.m.
Updated: 46 minutes ago
Asheville, N.C. - The mother of a 2-year-old who fell to his death at
Chimney Rock State Park has disputed reports from park officials who said
the boy ran from her and fell after slipping under a wooden rail.
Bibiana Saenz Bautista, 28, told the Spanish newspaper La Voz that she had
her son, Giovani "Nani" Chávez Saenz, by the hand when he suddenly tried to
pull away, lost his footing and fell between two wooden rails that guard the
Skyline Trail.
"There were about 15 of us. We were walking nearly single file in an area
maybe a meter (39 inches) wide," Bautista said Thursday. "He had a hold of
my hand when he wanted to join his cousins who were walking in front and
pulled at my hand. His foot slipped and he fell between the rails. He
disappeared below and that was the last time I saw my son until I saw his
body at the hospital."
Division of Parks and Recreation spokesman Charlie Peek initially said that
the mother was holding her child's hand, walking between him and the
railing, just before he fell on May 24. Peek said in a telephone interview
Thursday night that his information was the result of a statement Saenz
apparently made to Lake Lure police officer Glenn Gittens, who served as an
interpreter.
Peek corrected the part of the report that said the mother was walking on
the outside of the trail. He said it was the child who was walking next to
the railing, adding that the discrepancy stemmed from secondhand, word of
mouth information contradicted by written investigative notes, apparently
also the result of Gittens' interpretation.
Peek said investigators have wanted to talk again to Saenz and her husband,
Arturo Chávez García, 35, but the couple had not returned several message
left at the home of Saenz's sister.
Saenz said she has received no such messages and only Tuesday had a
telephone line installed in her home.
Peek said park signs warn visitors of the risks of falling and even death at
the beginning of the Skyline and Cliff trails. He said the park discourages
parents from taking smaller children on the trails because of the cliffs.
"We didn't see any signs in Spanish," Saenz said. "If they don't think
children should be on those trails, then why does it say at the entrance,
"Adults $14 and children under six, free?"
http://wral.com/news/state/story/2966932/
Local *comment* from message board.
"We didn't see any signs in Spanish," ...That would be because you are in
AMERICA!!! Funny she obviously could read the sign that said, "children
under 6 FREE". Selective reading I guess. It doesn't take a rocket scientist
to realize how dangerous those trails and lookout points are. I just don't
understand why the 2 yr old was next to the rail where he could slip and
fall to his death. Tragic for this little boy to lose his precious life.
Accidents happen, and I feel sorry for his Mom, but this could have been
prevented. I know, someone's going to say I should be ashamed for judging
this Mom, but when a child dies and it COULD have been prevented it makes me
mad. I guess the NAAHP (Nat'l Assoc for the Advancement of Hispanic People)
will slither on down to start a law suit....Oh, wait, wrong group!
me:
The commenter does have a point, if she couldn't read the signs how did she
know about the 'children under six FREE'.
Regardless, why was a two year old walking on the *outside* of the trail,
the steep side? And if she had hold of his hand, how the hell did he fall?
When I hold my children, now grandchildrens hands, I have a tight enough
grip on them to protect them. That's the reason I AM holding their hands,
to keep them from breaking away from me and running into the road, or
falling down a staircase, etc. What ever the need for the handholding to
begin with.
I too am *smelling* a lawsuit here.
td
LJ
"Alison MacIntyre" <chattan_s...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1e24ee7f-69d5-46bf...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On May 31, 9:17 am, "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@nospamhotmail.com>
wrote:
I feel really bad for the parents, also. But beings this park charges
for access, there should have been signs posted everywhere warning
parents of all hazardous areas and that child restraints are heavily
recommended for certain areas... and maybe even certain areas being
forbidden to children under the age of six. Very sad.>
I feel for the parents as well, but I have been there and would not attempt
to take a young child on that trail.
As far as signs in Spanish....they cannot blame others for that...like you
said, they are in the USA.
Wild Monkshood
Alison MacIntyre wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On May 31, 9:17 am, "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@nospamhotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I feel really bad for the parents, also. But beings this park charges
> for access, there should have been signs posted everywhere warning
> parents of all hazardous areas and that child restraints are heavily
> recommended for certain areas... and maybe even certain areas being
> forbidden to children under the age of six. Very sad.
It used to charge for access. It is now part of the State Park System.
I would think that, like the rest of the State Parks, there is no fee
for just going there and walking trails. Most fees are associated with
housing, reservations, etc. Unlike Va. Parks, we don't even charge for
parking. When I was last there, it was private and did charge for trail
access, but, there were signs and warnings, IIRC. The State Parks I
regularly go to have plenty of warning signs, some seemingly ridiculous
in nature. There has long been a debate about back country recreation
and at which point warnings and attempts to make the experience ultra
safe detracts from the purpose. Hopefully, a compromise is struck, but I
know that large signs and fencing can detract from the natural beauty
and experience. I mostly adhere to the belief of minimal impact,
thinking that the user should ultimately accept the responsibility.
After all, mountain trails are not an amusement park and should not be
sanitized as such. I think making Homo sapiens sign disclaimers at the
entrance should cover it.
WM
>
JonesieCat
"LJ" <lj...@lsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Qsj0k.703$tT4...@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
I agree about not allowing little ones there. The park needs to outright ban
toddlers from that particular trail (all of the extremely hazardous trails).
Holding a small child's hand is impossible if he doesn't want it held,
because their hands are so small and formless. That's when a parent should
have had a tight hold of his wrist, because then the child can't squirm his
way out of the grasp. - But IAC if the signs at the start of the trail give
admission prices for toddlers, some parents might very well believe it
appropriate to take the kids. Of course they would. Hallo?
Big signs with a child in a red circle with a cross over him/her, that's
understood internationally. (BTW, I would like to mention that
reading/writing a language is different from being able to speak it.) I too
think there will be a lawsuit. And they'll win. And the admission sign
saying toddlers are free will come down, and toddlers will be banned from
the trail. Like they should have been in the first place. Either that, or
chain link fencing is what I see in my particular crystal ball. YCBMV.
If the state wants an adult's money so badly that the adult's toddler goes
gets in for free - now there's a slippery slope indeed. If the state takes
money for something as _specific_ as this trail walk, then they also must
take responsibility. (Very diff from a general statement, say, at the
entrance to an entire park, "$15 admission to this sometimes dangerous park,
and you enter at your own risk.") "Children under 5 are free" is an
invitation and needs to be rescinded.
jc
Wild Monkshood
JonesieCat wrote:
So they do charge for trail access. This means that this State Park,
converted from a private park, has kept the payment policies. I had
assumed that they would no longer charge for access in line with the
rest of the park system.
WM
>
> jc
>
>
tiny dancer
"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Mo...@windstream.net> wrote in message
news:b9cc9$4841c27a$621016b8$30...@ALLTEL.NET...
I haven't been to Chimney Rock, but from what I read early on, there are
signs, lots of tthem, in English and Spanish is what I read. They
apparently do not ban anyone, but strongly discourage parents with small
children from the steep trails.
>>
tiny dancer
May 31, 2008
Chimney Rock toddler death spurs safety study
Nanci Bompey
The state Park Service plans to examine trail safety at Chimney Rock Park
following the death of a 2-year-old boy who fell from a cliff.
The Park Service is setting up a task force to look at facilities, signs and
public information, spokesman Charlie Peek said Friday.
Park officials also hope to interview the family of Giovani Chávez to learn
more about what led to his May 24 fall from a from a boardwalk section of
the Skyline-Cliff Loop trail.
Speaking out for the first time since the accident, the boy's mother,
identified as Bibiana Chávez by the state, told the Spanish newspaper La Voz
that the Memorial Day weekend trip to the park was the family's first visit
to the North Carolina mountains.
The family speaks little English, which state officials have said has slowed
their investigation.
"There were about 15 of us. We were walking nearly single file in an area
maybe a meter wide (39 inches)," Chávez told the newspaper.
"He had a hold of my hand when he wanted to join his cousins who were
walking in front and pulled at my hand. His foot slipped, and he fell
between the rails. He disappeared below, and that was the last time I saw my
son until I saw his body at the hospital."
Chávez said that at no time was her son out of her control.
She said the toddler was holding her left hand on the outside of the trail
while her other son, 3-year-old Kevin Chávez, held her right hand as he
walked on the slope side of the trail.
That section of trail was lined with a handrail and middle rail. Parks
officials said Giovani fell more than 100 feet.
Chávez said she did not see signs warning in Spanish of trail dangers and
that there were areas where there was no fence and the wooden railings had
large gaps beneath them.
The park has warning signs in English and Spanish that hikers should take
safety precautions.
Aura Camacho-Maas and her husband, John, were hiking near the group when the
boy fell and helped to translate for the Spanish-speaking family.
The couple have also voiced their concerns about the safety of the trail to
park officials.
Camacho-Maas said she talked on the phone to Chávez on Thursday.
"I just can't imagine what they are going through," she said. "This mother
is going to blame herself for the rest of her life."
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880530129
JonesieCat
"tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ccm0k.8591$vP5....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
What I believe to be the case, and I may be wrong, is that to access the
trail, adults are charged a certain price, teens charged less, $14, and
children under 5 or so were free, according to signs posted at the site.
That doesn't sound to me that they were discouraging the under 5s, despite
possible posted warnings. NO toddler ought to be allowed on that trail.
Interesting too that investigators, according to the article, left repeated
phone messages for the parents at the house they stayed at, when that house
didn't have a telephone at the time.
jc
Wild Monkshood
JonesieCat wrote:
Has anyone checked the website? Usually they have fee schedules and
such. Maybe they are trying to recoup the cost of buying from private
owners by charging access, but that would be inconsistent with other
State Parks in the NC system. Grandfather Mtn. is private. Some of its
trails cross free NPS trails of the Blue Ridge Parkway. If you wander
onto their fee access trail, you may be met with a representative with
his hand out. Here is the site for NC State Parks....
http://ils.unc.edu/parkproject/main/visit.html
Chimney Rock......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimney_Rock_State_Park
According to this article, they will be receiving licensing fees
through 2009, which might account for the fees...
WM
>
> jc
>
>
>
JonesieCat
This woman had TWO toddlers with her? And she says the dead one was never
"out of her control?" Hallo? Anybody who thinks that holding on to squirming
child's hand means she has control is, well, silly. It's like leading a
haltered horse by a rope. It allows you to lead it, but don't be thinking it
can't change that arrangement in a nanosecond if it so chooses.
Still, if that park was part of my own personal back yard, and I saw some
woman with one toddler, let alone two, intending to walk that trail, I'd be
turning them back so fast it'd make your head spin. No way would I let them
pay me to do it, even if I warned them of the danger extensively! - it just
wouldn't be an option. Allowing tiny kids on the 39" ledge? A no brainer.
Whether a state-run thing, or private. If you're gonna charge people, you
gotta make it safe - because a certain amt of safety is implied. If you
don't charge them money, and you tell them the consequences might mean
death, okay, different story. This woman likely (maybe - not sure) used
terrible judgement. But even if that's true, to allow such a person to pay
for something so dangerous - the state has used terrible judgement too, IMO.
jc
Wild Monkshood
JonesieCat wrote:
The signs at Hanging Rock & Pilot Mountain State Parks say something
like, "This area contains high Ledges and Water that could be associated
with serious injury or death". This even for the most innocuous trail if
there are cliffs in the area, no matter how far of the trail.
WM
>
> jc
>
>
tiny dancer
Have you been to Chimney Rock, monks? I'm having trouble picturing various
charges for trails?? The only state parks I've been in that charged
anything, charged admittance at the entrance to the parks. There weren't
'pay stations' at various points once inside. There were brochures, signs
to various trails, but no one at each trail to either charge a fee or turn
people away. You followed the signs, warnings, etc. and decided what type
of hike you were taking depending upon your individual situation. Were you
an experienced hiker, did you have small children or elderly peoplle with
you, etc. Nobody was around to say 'hey you, you shouldn't take that trail
because you have small children. We made our own *safety* decisions
depending upon if we had children with us or not. I remember when we took
our kids to the beach, it was up to us to watch them, supervise them, if we
walked far out on the fishing piers with them, it was up to us to hang on to
them tightly. I don't recall any signs saying 'no taking children out on
the piers.'
td
>>
>> jc
Wild Monkshood
tiny dancer wrote:
>>
>>The signs at Hanging Rock & Pilot Mountain State Parks say something like,
>>"This area contains high Ledges and Water that could be associated with
>>serious injury or death". This even for the most innocuous trail if there
>>are cliffs in the area, no matter how far of the trail.
>>
>>WM
>
>
>
> Have you been to Chimney Rock, monks? I'm having trouble picturing various
> charges for trails??
About 10 years ago. IIRC, we paid a general fee that covered all park
areas, excepting food courts and gift shop.
WM
>
earthage
> Mother says child did not run before fall at Chimney Rock
>
>
> Posted: May. 30 4:51 p.m.
> Updated: 46 minutes ago
>
> Asheville, N.C. - The mother of a 2-year-old who fell to his death at
> Chimney Rock State Park has disputed reports from park officials who said
> the boy ran from her and fell after slipping under a wooden rail.
>
> Bibiana Saenz Bautista, 28, told the Spanish newspaper La Voz that she had
> pull away, lost his footing and fell between two wooden rails that guard the
> Skyline Trail.
>
http://www.uncp.edu/home/mcclurem/photos/chrock/chrock.html
http://www.smartdestinations.com/design/images/blueridge/attractions/ChimneyRockPark.jpg
Peter Dworkin
If English was good enough for Jesus, it oughta be good enough for
these fuckin' wetbacks.
Wild Monkshood
earthage wrote:
Thanks for these.
WM
earthage
Beautiful park. Makes me want to hop a plane to see it. Do they take
the elevator up? Can't believe they did the entire trail with two and
three-year-olds.
Map, not to size
http://www.walchlogcabins.com/images/chimney.jpg
tiny dancer
"earthage" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:89a8f67f-89bd-44b8...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Wild Monkshood wrote:
> earthage wrote:
>
> > tiny dancer wrote:
> >
> >>Mother says child did not run before fall at Chimney Rock
> >>
> >>
> >>Posted: May. 30 4:51 p.m.
> >>Updated: 46 minutes ago
> >>
> >>Asheville, N.C. - The mother of a 2-year-old who fell to his death at
> >>Chimney Rock State Park has disputed reports from park officials who
> >>said
> >>the boy ran from her and fell after slipping under a wooden rail.
> >>
> >>Bibiana Saenz Bautista, 28, told the Spanish newspaper La Voz that she
> >>had
> >>her son, Giovani "Nani" Ch?vez Saenz, by the hand when he suddenly tried
> >>to
> >>pull away, lost his footing and fell between two wooden rails that guard
> >>the
> >>Skyline Trail.
> >>
> >
> >
> > http://www.uncp.edu/home/mcclurem/photos/chrock/chrock.html
> >
> > http://www.smartdestinations.com/design/images/blueridge/attractions/ChimneyRockPark.jpg
> >
> > http://picasaweb.google.com/art1card/ChimneyRockApr2007
>
> Thanks for these.
>
> WM
Beautiful park. Makes me want to hop a plane to see it. Do they take
the elevator up? Can't believe they did the entire trail with two and
three-year-olds.
I think the elevator just goes up to the top of chimney rock. If I
understand this all correctly, they were well up above on the skyline trail.
From what I've read one of the most rigorous of the trails.
At the chimney rock site, they have other *adventures* they recommend for
families with children. Hikes in the valley, not up the cliffsides.
The pictures were great. thanks for finding them. I kept searching the
official site, but didn't find anything like these you have found.
td
Wild Monkshood
earthage wrote:
I took the stairs years ago. Today, I might opt fir the elevator. I'm
not really up on which parts/trails they did, but it would be pretty
grueling to do everything on one day.
WM
Chocolic
"Peter Dworkin" <pe...@pdworkin.com> wrote in message
news:7qv3441rkbkdi6fk4...@4ax.com...
Don't tell me that was really you that said that?
Chocolic
JonesieCat
"Chocolic" <chatt...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Tmp0k.15099$SV4....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Choc, methinks your sarc meter needs repair.
jc
Peter Dworkin
<chatt...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Peter Dworkin" <pe...@pdworkin.com> wrote in message
>news:7qv3441rkbkdi6fk4...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 31 May 2008 17:32:03 -0400, "LJ" <lj...@lsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Alison MacIntyre" <chattan_s...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1e24ee7f-69d5-46bf...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>>x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>>On May 31, 9:17 am, "tiny dancer" <tinydancer...@nospamhotmail.com>
>>>wrote:
<snip>
>>>As far as signs in Spanish....they cannot blame others for that...like you
>>>said, they are in the USA.
>>>
>> If English was good enough for Jesus, it oughta be good enough for
>> these fuckin' wetbacks.
>
>Don't tell me that was really you that said that?
>
>Chocolic
Are you suffering from an irony deficiency, darling?
Chocolic
I must be, I should have known better. So so solly. :)
Chocolic
earthage
A picture of the map of Chimney Rock
http://www.pbase.com/455rocket/image/68004749/original
Picture taken from the top of Chimney Rock. WOW!
http://www.pbase.com/455rocket/image/68004758
tiny dancer
earthage wrote:
> tiny dancer wrote:
> > Mother says child did not run before fall at Chimney Rock
> >
> >
> > Posted: May. 30 4:51 p.m.
> > Updated: 46 minutes ago
> >
> > Asheville, N.C. - The mother of a 2-year-old who fell to his death at
> > Chimney Rock State Park has disputed reports from park officials who
> > said
> > the boy ran from her and fell after slipping under a wooden rail.
> >
> > Bibiana Saenz Bautista, 28, told the Spanish newspaper La Voz that she
> > had
> > her son, Giovani "Nani" Ch?vez Saenz, by the hand when he suddenly tried
> > to
> > pull away, lost his footing and fell between two wooden rails that guard
> > the
> > Skyline Trail.
> >
>
> http://www.uncp.edu/home/mcclurem/photos/chrock/chrock.html
>
> http://www.smartdestinations.com/design/images/blueridge/attractions/ChimneyRockPark.jpg
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/art1card/ChimneyRockApr2007
A picture of the map of Chimney Rock
http://www.pbase.com/455rocket/image/68004749/original
Picture taken from the top of Chimney Rock. WOW!
http://www.pbase.com/455rocket/image/68004758
Does any of this look like a place one would take two toddlers? There are
plenty of places one *can* take toddlers.
http://www.highcountrywebcams.com/webcameras_grandfather.htm
earthage
I think it's like a ride at an amusement park where one of the parents
have to sit it
out with the younger kids. I wonder when it was privately owned, if
young children
were allowed either on the stairs or to go up in the elevator.
Here's more of Chimney Rock:
http://www.pbase.com/image/41695498
http://www.pbase.com/image/18464257
http://www.pbase.com/image/88426273
http://www.pbase.com/sherfin/image/73518954&exif=N
LJ
That is what we did..paid one price for the entire park,not per trail.
JonesieCat
Wild Monkshood wrote:
> earthage wrote:
>
> > tiny dancer wrote:
> >
> >>Mother says child did not run before fall at Chimney Rock
> >>
> >>
> >>Posted: May. 30 4:51 p.m.
> >>Updated: 46 minutes ago
> >>
> >>Asheville, N.C. - The mother of a 2-year-old who fell to his death at
> >>Chimney Rock State Park has disputed reports from park officials who
> >>said
> >>the boy ran from her and fell after slipping under a wooden rail.
> >>
> >>Bibiana Saenz Bautista, 28, told the Spanish newspaper La Voz that she
> >>had
> >>her son, Giovani "Nani" Ch?vez Saenz, by the hand when he suddenly tried
> >>to
> >>pull away, lost his footing and fell between two wooden rails that guard
> >>the
> >>Skyline Trail.
> >>
> >
> >
> > http://www.uncp.edu/home/mcclurem/photos/chrock/chrock.html
> >
> > http://www.smartdestinations.com/design/images/blueridge/attractions/ChimneyRockPark.jpg
> >
> > http://picasaweb.google.com/art1card/ChimneyRockApr2007
>
> Thanks for these.
>
> WM
Beautiful park. Makes me want to hop a plane to see it. Do they take
the elevator up? Can't believe they did the entire trail with two and
three-year-olds.
Map, not to size
http://www.walchlogcabins.com/images/chimney.jpg
----------------------------------
What a fabulously beautiful place. Breathtaking. I want to go there. I can't
believe she did the entire thing w 2 toddlers either. But she didn't, in the
end. What an idiot to try (IMO).
jc