J MacDonald -Reference to Escatrol in FVision
Lionelgirl
manufactured by Smith Kline and French (now Smith Kline Beecham) and was a
popular diet pill in the late 70's? According to Fatal Vision, MacDonald had
been prescribing himself this drug around the time of the murders.
Escatrol was a very powerful, addictive amphetamine that was eventually taken
off the market for several reasons, one of which I believe was because it could
result in psychosis. If in fact MacDonald was taking this drug, it would be an
important factor to consider. I have never seen any drug have such an effect
on people as
speed does...it can make the most mild-mannered person suddenly go into a rage.
Has anyone discussed this yet? I apologize if I missed it. I would be curious
to know if anyone else wondered about this.
Terry Hallinan
>Does anyone remember the prescription drug called Escatrol that was
>manufactured by Smith Kline and French (now Smith Kline Beecham) and was a
>popular diet pill in the late 70's? According to Fatal Vision, MacDonald had
>been prescribing himself this drug around the time of the murders.
Dr. MacDonald was in charge of a weight-training battalion. The drug
was used by those in the battalion. There is not the slightest
indication that MacDonald abused any drug at any time. McGinniss was
lying. He made up stories. When he paid MacDonald $350,000 for his
lies he called it a "a great victory for free speech."
>Escatrol was a very powerful, addictive amphetamine that was eventually taken
>off the market for several reasons, one of which I believe was because it could
>result in psychosis.
Ol' Joe did a lot of cutting and pasting but IAC a state of
intoxication required a significant abuse of the drug. MacDonald's
blood tests the night of the murders showed only the remains of the
alcohol he drank with Colette. Few drugs cause more violence than
alcohol but he was not drunk.
>If in fact MacDonald was taking this drug, it would be an
>important factor to consider. I have never seen any drug have such an effect
>on people as speed does...it can make the most mild-mannered person
>suddenly go into a rage.
I knew students, particularly medical students, to use dexadrine
particularly to cram for tests. None of them killed their families.
I am sorry but users of bennies and dexadrine are the limit of my
personal experience.
>Has anyone discussed this yet? I apologize if I missed it. I would be curious
>to know if anyone else wondered about this.
Over and over.
But not lately. :-}
Best, Terry
"Justice - A commodity which in a more or less adulterated
condition the State sells to the citizen as a reward for his
allegiance,taxes and personal service"
- The Devil's Dictionary
Welldunne
>manufactured by Smith Kline and French (now Smith Kline Beecham) and was a
>popular diet pill in the late 70's? According to Fatal Vision, MacDonald had
>been prescribing himself this drug around the time of the murders.
>
>off the market for several reasons, one of which I believe was because it
>could
>an
>important factor to consider. I have never seen any drug have such an effect
>on people as
>speed does...it can make the most mild-mannered person suddenly go into a
>rage.
>
>curious
>to know if anyone else wondered about this.
Jimmy Buffett made musical mention of Escatrol's capacity to seriously mess up
one's mind when taken in tandem with alcohol. His melodic warning went
something like: "Take a bottle of rum and an Escatrol and watch the same thing
happen to you." Song title may be "Fool Button."
(Not that he'd killed anyone, you understand . . . .)
Martha Sprowles
Terry answered that MacDonald had not "abused" Escatrol. Does anyone
know whether or not he was taking it himself, at the prescribed dosage?
Martha
Gimarie330
>Terry answered that MacDonald had not "abused" Escatrol. Does anyone
>know whether or not he was taking it himself, at the prescribed dosage?
That's a good question Martha. I think (but can't swear by it) that when
McDonald was interviewed on one of these news shows I heard him say he was
taking diet pills to control his weight. I could be wrong. I could have read it
somewhere and or it could be a rumor......BUT if he was taking it at a normal
dosage, any combination with any amount of alcohol could produce a lethal.
violent person.
Regards, gini marie
Martha Sprowles
A long time ago, I was prescribed "diet pills" by a reputable doctor.
Or by what I assume was a reputable doctor--I was not overweight
(although I thought I was). Anyway, these were very mild pills, yet I
found myself much more aggressive than I'd ever been in my life. I went
after people who had too many items for the express line at the store,
and I chased some Nordic types off the tennis court because they'd
overstayed their time--things I could never do before.
I do not think we should underestimate the "enraging" potential of even
small doses of these drugs, especially when taken over time.
Martha
Gimarie330
>A long time ago, I was prescribed "diet pills" by a reputable doctor.
>Or by what I assume was a reputable doctor--I was not overweight
>(although I thought I was). Anyway, these were very mild pills, yet I
>found myself much more aggressive than I'd ever been in my life. I went
>after people who had too many items for the express line at the store,
>and I chased some Nordic types off the tennis court because they'd
>overstayed their time--things I could never do before.
>
>I do not think we should underestimate the "enraging" potential of even
>small doses of these drugs, especially when taken over time.
I know exactly what you are talking about......Absolutely agree!!!!
hall...@borg.com
Uh huh. Dr. MacDonald's blood was naturally tested at the hospital. He had
no eskatrol in his system although he did have some alcohol. The last is the
single drug that causes most violence but it makes for a less colorful story.
MacDonald was not drunk.
Dr. MacDonald as well as members of his weight-training battalion used
eskatrol periodically. No other members are reported to have killed their
families.
Neither did the doctor.
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t.cruise
wrote:
>
>Ol' Joe did a lot of cutting and pasting but IAC a state of
>intoxication required a significant abuse of the drug. MacDonald's
>blood tests the night of the murders showed only the remains of the
>alcohol he drank with Colette. Few drugs cause more violence than
>alcohol but he was not drunk.
>
What "blood tests" are you talking about? Which substances was he
tested for? Back then, drug screening tests weren't as comprehensive
as they are now. I doubt very much, that MacDonald was in fact
screened for Escatrol.
T.C.
t.cruise
>>From: Martha Sprowles
>>Terry answered that MacDonald had not "abused" Escatrol. Does anyone
>>know whether or not he was taking it himself, at the prescribed dosage?
>
>That's a good question Martha. I think (but can't swear by it) that when
>McDonald was interviewed on one of these news shows I heard him say he was
>taking diet pills to control his weight. I could be wrong. I could have read it
>somewhere and or it could be a rumor......BUT if he was taking it at a normal
>dosage, any combination with any amount of alcohol could produce a lethal.
>violent person.
>Regards, gini marie
I took ONE Escatrol capsule, and it kept me up for two days. I was
almost out of my mind, by the end of the second day. The slightest
annoyances agitated me to the point of violence. I didn't have any
screaming children, or wife, at that time. If I had, I might just be
in the same place that MacDonald is now.
T.C.
t.cruise
>Uh huh. Dr. MacDonald's blood was naturally tested at the hospital. He had
>no eskatrol in his system although he did have some alcohol. The last is the
>single drug that causes most violence but it makes for a less colorful story.
>MacDonald was not drunk.
>
Where has it been documented that MacDonald was specifically tested
for Eskatrol?
T.C.
hall...@borg.com
t___c...@yahoo.com (t.cruise) wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:17:48 GMT, hall...@borg.com (Terry Hallinan)
> wrote:
> >Ol' Joe did a lot of cutting and pasting but IAC a state of
> >intoxication required a significant abuse of the drug. MacDonald's
> >blood tests the night of the murders showed only the remains of the
> >alcohol he drank with Colette. Few drugs cause more violence than
> >alcohol but he was not drunk.
> What "blood tests" are you talking about?
Wnen you go to the hospital for superficial injuries like a punctured lung and
numerous other puncture and head wounds, it is customary to do blood tests.
> Which substances was he tested for?
Substances that would interfere with treatment or be cause of injuries.
>Back then, drug screening tests weren't as comprehensive as they are now. I
>doubt very much, that MacDonald was in fact screened for Escatrol.
>
> T.C.
You know how a teenage drug cult member and informant would talk. Now you
know what hospitals tested for in the 70's. Your span of knowledge is
breathtaking.
For everybody but Mr. Cruise, who just knows things, this is from "Fatal
Justice," p. 348, discussing evidence from the civil trial trial brought by
MacDonald against McGinniss. Bostwick was the lawyer hired by the plaintiff.
"On August 7, Botwick addressed the issue with the lab tehnician, Joseph J.
Barbuto. Even though Barbuto was called as a McGinniss witness, he stated
from the stand that McGinniss had incorrectly quoted him, that he was asked
to test for dangerous drugs in MacDonald's urine. He added that, contrary to
McGinniss's claims in the book, he did know in 1970 that amphetamines were a
restricted and dangerous drug.
"Bostwick then demonstrated with McGinniss back on the stand, that the writer
had ignored his own knowledge when he claimed in the book that the military
hadn't considered amphetamines a dangerous drug. He admitted under Bostwick's
questioning that Colette's body was specifically tested for amphetamines at
Womack Army Hospital because CID agents thought the extreme violence of the
crimes might be the result of amphetamine abuse by persons involved."
I believe the blood was tested likewise.
Martha Sprowles
Considering that MacDonald had come off a double shift the night before
the murders, I suspect that he might indeed have been using Eskatrol to
help him stay awake.
Martha
Martha Sprowles
But Terry, why wouldn't the authors of Fatal Justice *say* so, then?
And what was the point of testing Collette's blood? It sounds slippery
to me.
Martha
Gimarie330
>MacDonald's
>> > >blood tests the night of the murders showed only the remains of the
>> > >alcohol he drank with Colette.
Terry,
Is there an actual copy of the results of the test peformed on McDonald's blood
the night of the murders......and if so....does it list everything the blood
was tested for?
>Few drugs cause more violence than
>> > >alcohol but he was not drunk.
A small amount of alcohol combined with certain drugs can produce a violent
reaction in one......and actually alcohol, even taken in small quantities by
some can induce violent behavior.
>> Even though Barbuto was called as a McGinniss witness, he stated
>> from the stand that McGinniss had incorrectly quoted him, that he was asked
>> to test for dangerous drugs in MacDonald's urine.
I am sure you know that testing for dangerous drugs in a person's urine and
doing a comprehensive drug test from one's blood are two different facts.
> He admitted under
>Bostwick's
>> questioning that Colette's body was specifically tested for amphetamines at
>> Womack Army Hospital because CID agents thought the extreme violence of the
>> crimes might be the result of amphetamine abuse by persons involved.
>> I believe the blood was tested likewise.
(Who says "I believe", Terry, the authors, or the lab technician???)
And Martha Sprowles asks and me too:)
Terry Hallinan
>hall...@borg.com wrote:
>> ...this is from "Fatal
>> Justice," p. 348, discussing evidence from the civil trial...
>> "On August 7, Botwick addressed the issue with the lab tehnician, Joseph J.
>> Barbuto...he stated from the stand that McGinniss had incorrectly quoted
>> him, that he was asked to test for dangerous drugs in MacDonald's urine....
>> I believe the blood was tested likewise.
>But Terry, why wouldn't the authors of Fatal Justice *say* so, then?
Because they were describing the testimony as it was given in the
quoted passage. They do say in other places that Brbuto tested "body
fluids."
>And what was the point of testing Collette's blood? It sounds slippery
>to me.
??
But an investigation into what happened would naturally include an
investigation of the victims. At a scene of incredible and ghastly
violence it is hardly illogical to look for any violence on the part
of victims. Colette's blood, just like Jeffrey's, was subject to
investigation for amphetamines which can be implicated in violence.
None was found in either.
Many make up stories about Colette's violence as well as Jeffrey's.
It is the same sort of hogwash.
>Martha
Terry Hallinan
>t.cruise wrote:
>> I took ONE Escatrol capsule, and it kept me up for two days. I was
>> almost out of my mind, by the end of the second day. The slightest
>> annoyances agitated me to the point of violence. I didn't have any
>> screaming children, or wife, at that time. If I had, I might just be
>> in the same place that MacDonald is now.
>> T.C.
>Considering that MacDonald had come off a double shift the night before
>the murders, I suspect that he might indeed have been using Eskatrol to
>help him stay awake.
>Martha
Nevermind that none was found in the hospital tests of blood and urine
of MacDonald.
Eskatrol was used by members of the weight training battalion. When
Dr. MacDonald actually did use Eskatrol previously he did not murder
his wife and family. It is not reported that other members of the
weight training battalion who used Eskatrol murdered their wives and
children.
Cruise says he took one eskatrol tablet and could have killed his
family. I think it would be a good idea to keep amphetamines away
from Mr. Cruise.
And check police records for places he has been. :-}
Terry Hallinan
>T.C.
<sigh>
A transcript of a court proceeding is a document. Trust me on this.
A technician testifying before a properly ordained court that he
tested for amphetamines on both Jeffery and Colette MacDonald is
documented evidence. Try to believe me.
It is unfortunate "Fatal Justice" did not quote all the transcripts
verbatim for us. There might not have been many sales of such a
document, Mr. Cruise. I notice you won't even look at the book which
is much shorter than transcripts. I have to rely on correct excerpts
and characterization of the transcripts. No one is challenging them
which you might expect if it was all a fairy tale like "Fatal Vision."
Now I will agree that the "E" on the tablet or capsule or whatever
probably was impossible to reassemble or that Eskatrol would likely be
distinguishable from other amphetamines but I suspect that question
was a bit beyond your depth, Mr. Cruise.
As for the rest, perhaps your mommy or somebody can explain the
passage I quoted to you, Mr. Cruise.
hall...@borg.com
spro...@erols.com wrote:
> Considering that MacDonald had come off a double shift the night before
> the murders, I suspect that he might indeed have been using Eskatrol to
> help him stay awake.
> Martha
There is no evidence that Dr. MacDonald used amphetamines to keep him awake
though he had been moonlighting often. In fact MacDonald was an enemy of
drug abuse and had been warned by the FBI before the murders that he was
known as an informant by the drug world.
OTOH I knew a number of students who used amphetamines to cram for studies.
One professional musician was in deep trouble. The effects of the dexadrine
was just wearing off as he was going in for tests. He had not killed his
family that I know of but he might have killed the tests. None of the other
drug users I knew killed their families.
OTOH I have been kept up many nights by tendinitis. That has made me want to
kill somebody but I have not. It is the pain of the tendinitis that makes me
mad. My wife hasn't noticeably been keeping sharp objects away from me.
Should I warn her?
I have taken drugs so I could sleep nights. Don't tell Mr. Cruise.
Terry Hallinan
>>hall...@borg.com wrote:
>>MacDonald's
>>> > >blood tests the night of the murders showed only the remains of the
>>> > >alcohol he drank with Colette.
>Terry,
>Is there an actual copy of the results of the test peformed on McDonald's blood
>the night of the murders......and if so....does it list everything the blood
>was tested for?
There seems to be no toxicological examination report. A checklist
which would be a more logical expectation does not seem to be extant
nor does it seem there ever was one.
>>Few drugs cause more violence than
>>> > >alcohol but he was not drunk.
>A small amount of alcohol combined with certain drugs can produce a violent
>reaction in one......and actually alcohol, even taken in small quantities by
>some can induce violent behavior.
A sudden burst of violence from one who used alcohol before without
trouble does not make a whole lot of sense. Combinations of drugs
often magnify the effects of one (or counteract it). The fact is
there is not the slightest evidence that Dr. MacDonald used any
Eskatrol except his written statement that he might have taken one
pill. Tests did not indicate it. He had taken Eskatrol before
without bad effects to anyone's notice.
MacDonald has never been shown to be a violent man, a drug addict, or
a psychopathic personality. In fact a search was made for what could
have caused a man like MacDonald to murder his family when there was
no reasonable expectation of any violence from the man.
This is the level of logic being advanced: the murders are proof that
Eskatrol was used even though laboratory tests contradict it. And the
use of Eskatrol is proof MacDonald committed murder even though the
blood evidence proves he was telling the truth.
There seems to be a fallacy in there somewhere.
>>> Even though Barbuto was called as a McGinniss witness, he stated
>>> from the stand that McGinniss had incorrectly quoted him, that he was asked
>>> to test for dangerous drugs in MacDonald's urine.
>I am sure you know that testing for dangerous drugs in a person's urine and
>doing a comprehensive drug test from one's blood are two different facts.
MacDonald's blood was tested. My God, Gini, the man was in the
hospital for surgery. Tests for drugs are commonly done today through
urine tests.
>> He admitted under
>>Bostwick's
>>> questioning that Colette's body was specifically tested for amphetamines at
>>> Womack Army Hospital because CID agents thought the extreme violence of the
>>> crimes might be the result of amphetamine abuse by persons involved.
>>> I believe the blood was tested likewise.
>(Who says "I believe", Terry, the authors, or the lab technician???)
I wrote that. You can tell by my use of quotes. It is a common
device by writers. :-}
Other passages deal with blood tests.
>And Martha Sprowles asks and me too:)
>>But Terry, why wouldn't the authors of Fatal Justice *say* so, then?
>>And what was the point of testing Collette's blood? It sounds slippery
>>to me.
The authors of "Fatal Justice" were writing about the testimony. That
is what the testimony was.
Bundy Chanock
>t.cruise wrote:
>>
>> On 9 Jul 1998 15:48:04 GMT, gimar...@aol.com (Gimarie330) wrote:
>>
>> >>From: Martha Sprowles
>> >>Terry answered that MacDonald had not "abused" Escatrol. Does anyone
>> >>know whether or not he was taking it himself, at the prescribed dosage?
>> >
>> >That's a good question Martha. I think (but can't swear by it) that when
>> >McDonald was interviewed on one of these news shows I heard him say he was
>> >taking diet pills to control his weight. I could be wrong. I could have read it
>> >somewhere and or it could be a rumor......BUT if he was taking it at a normal
>> >dosage, any combination with any amount of alcohol could produce a lethal.
>> >violent person.
>> >Regards, gini marie
>>
>> I took ONE Escatrol capsule, and it kept me up for two days. I was
>> almost out of my mind, by the end of the second day. The slightest
>> annoyances agitated me to the point of violence. I didn't have any
>> screaming children, or wife, at that time. If I had, I might just be
>> in the same place that MacDonald is now.
>>
>> T.C.
>
>Considering that MacDonald had come off a double shift the night before
>the murders, I suspect that he might indeed have been using Eskatrol to
>help him stay awake.
Martha, I do doubles all the time and don't take Eskatrol or anything
else, other than strong coffee to stay awake. And neither did Jeff on
the preceeding night or the actual night of the murders at Bragg.
Bundy
hall...@borg.com
>>Martha, I do doubles all the time and don't take Eskatrol or anything
>>else, other than strong coffee to stay awake. And neither did Jeff
>>on the preceeding night or the actual night of the murders at Bragg.
>>Bundy
> However, Jeff *did* take various "helper" meds while working at
> St. Mary's in Long Beach,CA-post-murders,pre-conviction. I found
> him to a very pleasant co-worker; however, I did then and do now
> believe him guilty.
Why? What is the reason you overlook the pile of evidence of intruders as
well as the FBI warnings to Dr. MacDonald that he was in danger from the drug
underworld? It is hardly like Johnnie Cochran trying to prove Ron Goldman
and Nicole Brown were murdered by South American druglords because of a label
from a bunch of bananas found on the sidewalk.
What sort of "helper meds" did you see Dr. MacDonald take? Did others take
drugs? Did you? Why do you stay anonymous when you make such a charge? Do
you fear retaliation? Exposure? [I am quite well aware there are many
reasons for desiring anonymity. I also think anonymous charges are much less
effective.]
For all I know Dr. MacDonald became drug addict after the murders. It seems
few noticed.
Terry Hallinan
> Yes, there are many reasons for anonymity, so I choose to remain
>anonymous-I believe I have that right.
Certainly.
I only note that anonymous sources are not verifiable and therefore
have less reliability than other sources. Truth or otherwise can
sometimes be determined by what they say.
>As to Jeff's "addiction",
>you used that phrase,
I haven't made any claims of any kind except that yours is the first
claim for drug abuse I have seen from anyone who knows him. From
others the claims are legion.
>not I.Many of us, myself included, used amphetamines
>while pulling doubles. I am not proud of this, nor do I recommend
>it. It is, however, common practice.
I have stated that I knew many to use such drugs in the past. I
haven't but it doesn't seem terribly rare. I would imagine the
medical field would be where the drugs are most used because of the
easy access.
>As to the "charge"- this is not a charge, just an observation.
An "observation" that one broke the law seems to be a charge to me.
It would be a minor charge except for the context.
>Drug use among the medical profession is widespread, dangerous, and
>difficult to prove as very few within the medical community are willing
>to confront fellow docs, and fewer still will testify against another.
> Addressing the "did he do it?" issue-I have no real reason to
>believe Jeff guilty other than the worst possible-a gut reaction.
>He may very well be innocent; I hope he is- as I said I liked him; I just
>never found his version to be credible. On the other hand, I never
>found the prosecution version credible, either......hmmm, I think I need
>to think before I post again. I tend to act, then think......
Thank you.
I tend to believe you because what you say seems quite in line with my
experience and knowledge..