Bishop's Parents Attempted Suicide as Teens
Maggie
Pilot's parents had troubled, painful start
The parents of the pilot who crashed a plane into a skyscraper in Tampa had
tried to kill themselves before he was born.
By CHUCK MURPHY, Times Staff Writer
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MALDEN, Mass. -- Distraught that they could not get a license to marry, the
young lovers decided they would die together.
Julia J. Detore and Charles Bishara failed in a bloody, horrific suicide pact.
But the son they ultimately produced would succeed in a suicide plan of his own
-- nearly 18 years later.
The life of Charles Bishop was remarkable in both its spectacular end and
tumultuous beginning. By crashing a stolen Cessna into Tampa's Bank of America
Plaza building last Saturday, Bishop ended 15 years of near-constant movement
with his mother, and most of a lifetime without contact with his father or his
father's family.
Beyond his mother and grandmother in Palm Harbor, his death also leaves
forgotten relatives grieving in Massachusetts, angry that on the same day they
finally found the child they called Chucky Jr., they lost him forever.
"It's just a tragedy to find your grandson in this way," said Robert Bishara,
whose son, Charles, had little contact with his son after Detore sought
divorce, then moved from the small Boston-area town where they lived.
"We lost someone we didn't even know," he said.
The former Julia Detore, who changed both her name and her son's from Bishara
to Bishop, has declined requests for extensive interviews since her son's
death.
"I can't do it," she said. "I just lost my son a couple of days ago. There
hasn't even been a service yet."
Charles Bishara, thought to still live in the Boston area, could not be
located.
But details of his life can be found in police reports and microfilmed copies
of the local newspaper, the Malden Evening News.
Sometime before July 28, 1984, Bishara and Detore, who had been dating only a
short time, according to his relatives, decided to get married.
The couple drove to Rhode Island, where they planned to elope. But, for reasons
not explained, the license was denied. She was just 17. He was 19.
They returned to her home at 74 Adams St. in Malden.
There, according a newspaper story based on police reports, they became upset
at the failure. They stuffed rags into the tailpipe of her car, hoping to fill
the car with carbon monoxide and kill them both. When that failed, 'they agreed
that she would stab Bishara with a 12-inch butcher knife and he would then
slash her wrists with the same knife," according to the newspaper.
But the pain was more than Bishara bargained for. At 4 a.m., he asked her to
call an ambulance. Paramedics found him on the sofa, bleeding heavily with a
lacerated liver. When questioned, he denied that the pair was in a suicide
pact, though she insisted that was the case.
Detore was charged with assault with a dangerous weapon with intent to commit
murder. She was ordered to undergo a 20-day evaluation at a state hospital in
Waltham. Then, the case disappeared.
No record exists in the District Court for Malden. Records in Malden are not
computerized and it may have simply been lost, or ordered expunged by a judge.
Charles Bishara's sister said that he refused to cooperate with prosecutors and
that the case against Julia was dropped.
James Detore, the estranged father of Julia Bishop, said he did not want to
talk about the events that led up to the 1984 suicide attempt.
"I really don't want to go into that," he said in a telephone interview from
his Pompano Beach home. "That's really old stuff. It wasn't pleasant for me,
and I don't think she (Julia) would appreciate me talking about it."
Attorney Pam Campbell, who is now representing Julia Bishop, said she was told
that the court file in the case was sealed.
"Basically it was a Romeo-and-Juliet type of suicide pact," Campbell said.
"They were both very depressed. . . . And they were very young."
Could Charles Bishop have been influenced by his parents suicidal thoughts in
1984? If the teenager knew, some experts said, the family history could have
been a factor.
"It's taboo in society . . . to kill yourself. Like any taboo, if you've
witnessed it, or you've seen it broken, then it's easier for you to do," said
Dr. Tony Redding, chairman of the psychiatry department at the University of
South Florida in Tampa. "I don't know if it's a big factor. It's one more stick
on the fire."
But attorney Campbell said the teenager had no idea what his mother and father
had been through.
In time, Charles Bishara recovered from his wounds and resumed his relationship
with Detore. He also began a string of mostly petty, occasionally
alcohol-fueled crimes that made him familiar to the police in both Malden, and
nearby Everett, where he lived.
He was cited for running a stop sign and driving without a license in 1985. Two
years later, he was convicted of breaking into a restaurant two blocks from his
father's house. The same year, he was convicted of possession of burglary tools
and larceny.
"He was a straight-A student without picking up a book," recalls his father,
Robert Bishara, 54, a retired refrigeration mechanic in Everett. "But he just
drifted around."
In the middle of all that, Julia became pregnant with Charles. As 1986 began,
she had a baby on the way and a boyfriend with a criminal record. They decided
to marry shortly after the child was born.
The marriage was a mess, according to the Bishara family. But the baby was well
cared for.
"We had a crib in my room, and a playpen; I watched him all the time," recalled
Charles' sister, Dawn, 32, who still lives in the area. "He was my mother's
first grandchild, and she gave him all the love. "
As the marriage disintegrated, so did Julia's relationship with her in-laws.
She filed for divorce, citing "cruel and abusive" treatment by her husband.
Charles did not pay the $25-a-week in child support. Finally, according to the
Bisharas, Julia had had enough.
"She did tell us she wanted us to have nothing to do with little Chucky," Dawn
Bishara said. 'She took Chucky Jr. away."
Public records indicate that Julia moved frequently with her son, including
addresses in Reading, Winchester, Hingham and Norwell, Mass. In the early
1990s, she changed their last name -- not to Detore, but to Bishop. She told
Pinellas sheriff's officials that she made the change because Bishara is an
Arabic name and the U.S. was at war with Iraq.
Back in Everett, the Bisharas heard that Julia had changed her name and moved
several times, but they didn't know the new name. The family readily
acknowledges that her ex-husband, Charles, had no interest in Julia or his son.
Some family members were hoping that Julia would re-establish contact with
Charles' family. She didn't.
Then, on Saturday night, Charles's sister Dawn was watching Fox News coverage
of the crash into the Tampa office tower. They had a grainy photo of the
supposed pilot, Charles Bishop. In her mind, he looked just like her brother.
The next morning, the Boston Globe said the pilot's mother's name was Julia.
"I just had a horrible feeling," Dawn recalled. "I could tell."
By Monday, reporters were calling Robert Bishara, and he knew that Dawn was
right. Since then, he has read the stories about Charles, the grandson he never
really knew, described as a loner, with downcast eyes and slumping shoulders.
He knows the look.
"It sounds just like Charles (the father)," Robert Bishara said. "That's the
way he always looked."
Bishara is angry at reports that his grandson, who expressed sympathy for Osama
bin Laden in a suicide note, may have been influenced by his Arabic background.
Yes, said Bishara, his last name is Syrian, and his father came to the United
States in the first half of the 20th century from that country.
"But I was born right here," he said in a thick Boston accent. "I'm not an
Arab-American. I'm an American. I don't even speak the language. I know nothing
about it."
Robert Bishara and Dawn were quick to point out that they have no idea how
Charles Bishop was raised by Julia. They said several times that they did not
wish to criticize anything about her -- except her decision to take Charles
Bishop away.
"It had been my hope that when he turned 18 in a couple of years he would come
looking for us," Dawn said. 'Now that can't happen."
-- Times staff writers Wes Allison, Alicia Caldwell, Robert Farley, Katherine
Gazella, Curtis Krueger and Ed Quioco and researcher Kitty Bennett contributed
to this report.
Maggie
"There are no stupid questions. There are, however, many inquisitive idiots."
-- Unknown
mothra...@hotmail.com
>
> From the St. Petersburg Times:
>
> Pilot's parents had troubled, painful start
> The parents of the pilot who crashed a plane into a skyscraper in Tampa had
> tried to kill themselves before he was born.
<snip>
Wow. This poor kid never had a chance.
Martha
Desi
mothra...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<3C3DCC...@erols.com>...
I bet more bizarre details will come out. No one has heard
from Dad yet
desi
SteveF
I hope we can trust the Feds and the Tampa police not to distort what really
happened. I mean we really believe there was a note..right?
It wasn't something silly like .. a couple of young hot shot CG chopper
pilots were trying to bring this joyriding kid down and instead got him so
confused that he smashed into that building by accident.
Just a thought....
Steve
"Desi" <de...@cts.com> wrote in message
news:3c3dd04a$0$62611$e2e...@nntp.cts.com...
DedNdogYrs
Charles Bishop have been influenced by his parents suicidal thoughts in
1984? If the teenager knew, some experts said, the family history could have
been a factor.>
Or more likely heredity. This kid had depression on both sides of his family.
Dogs & children first.
Jason Pope
one of your orifices!
From the article below:
"As the marriage disintegrated, so did Julia's relationship with her
in-laws.
She filed for divorce, citing "cruel and abusive" treatment by her
husband."
I won't be expecting an apology any time soon!
ciao
Jason
SteveF
"SteveF" <s.r.fl...@att.net> wrote in message
news:aYo%7.243908$WW.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I wonder how many people have actually seen the suicide note?
> I hope we can trust the Feds and the Tampa police not to distort what
really
> happened. I mean we really believe there was a note..right?
> It wasn't something silly like .. a couple of young hot shot CG chopper
> pilots were trying to bring this joyriding kid down and instead got him so
> confused that he smashed into that building by accident.
> Just a thought....
>
> Steve
>
public manner and very rarely before they drive. One site claims that a 15
year old suicide might be the lowest on record.
Jason Pope
SteveF wrote:
>
> "SteveF" <s.r.fl...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:aYo%7.243908$WW.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > I wonder how many people have actually seen the suicide note?
> > I hope we can trust the Feds and the Tampa police not to distort what
> really
> > happened. I mean we really believe there was a note..right?
> > It wasn't something silly like .. a couple of young hot shot CG chopper
> > pilots were trying to bring this joyriding kid down and instead got him so
> > confused that he smashed into that building by accident.
> > Just a thought....
> >
> > Steve
> >
> I just read that it is almost unheard of for kids to commit suicide in a
> public manner and very rarely before they drive. One site claims that a 15
> year old suicide might be the lowest on record.
>
> Steve
We had a girl kill herself aged about 12 I think.
She was being bullied at school!
ciao
Jason
Maggie
>news:aYo%7.243908$WW.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> I wonder how many people have actually seen the suicide note?
>> I hope we can trust the Feds and the Tampa police not to distort what
>really
>> happened. I mean we really believe there was a note..right?
>> It wasn't something silly like .. a couple of young hot shot CG chopper
>> pilots were trying to bring this joyriding kid down and instead got him
>so
>> confused that he smashed into that building by accident.
>> Just a thought....
>>
>> Steve
>>
>I just read that it is almost unheard of for kids to commit suicide in a
>public manner and very rarely before they drive. One site claims that a
>15
>year old suicide might be the lowest on record.
***Well, that site would be dead wrong.
Maggie < knew an 11-year-old who took his father's rifle into the woods,
removed his shoes and socks and pulled the trigger with his toes
SteveF
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
news:20020111174730...@mb-cl.aol.com...
**
I think I would need to see some proof on that one.
Steve
SteveF
"Jason Pope" <serial...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3C3F616D...@btinternet.com...
**
how does someone that age even know how to kill themselves nevermind even
know that it can be done?
Steve
mothra...@hotmail.com
I knew an eleven-year-old boy who tried to kill himself by jumping out
of a window. It happens, Steve.
Martha
SteveF
<mothra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3C3F87...@erols.com...
could be the possible reason unless it was so totally obvious neglect? You
can't tell me that an 11 year old would commit suicide without the parent
knowing there was something totally wrong. I have 5 children who (thank God)
are all grown, but we knew when they were hurting.
Steve
Ken
> You, my dear man, are so full of bullshit it's seeping out over every
> one of your orifices!
> From the article below:
>
> "As the marriage disintegrated, so did Julia's relationship with her
> in-laws.
> She filed for divorce, citing "cruel and abusive" treatment by her
> husband."
We have already seen you know ZERO about children and child psychology,
now do you wish to demonstrate for the world you know even LESS about the
law?
> I won't be expecting an apology any time soon!
Don't, it seems YOUR reading is again PISS POOR..
From the article below:
"When that failed, 'they agreed that she would stab Bishara with a 12-inch
butcher knife and he would then slash her wrists with the same knife,"
according to the newspaper. But the pain was more than Bishara bargained
for. At 4 a.m., he asked her to call an ambulance. Paramedics found him on
the sofa, bleeding heavily with a lacerated liver. When questioned, he
denied that the pair was in a suicide pact, though she insisted that was the
case. Detore was charged with assault with a dangerous weapon with intent
to commit murder. She was ordered to undergo a 20-day evaluation at a state
hospital in
Waltham. "
Let's see. YOU claim HE was "BEATING HER SENSELESS and she HAD to RUN
from HIM." So how come the article says SHE stabbed HIM????????? How come
SHE was charged?????? Got a SMART assed answer?
Now let's READ ON about nthis "BADASS MANIAC..."
" He also began a string of mostly petty, occasionally alcohol-fueled
crimes that made him familiar to the police in both Malden, and nearby
Everett, where he lived. He was cited for running a stop sign and driving
without a license in 1985."
Well now THAT does it. We can know foir sure he was a wild wife beater,
the son of a bitch was running STOP SIGNS!
Yep, ALL men who run stop signs BEAT their wives. 100% of them! That is one
DANGEROUS son of a bitch Jason. He actually RAN A STOP SIGN! That's your
case. THAT proves that she ran in FEAR of him!
And then we read this:
"The family readily acknowledges that her ex-husband, Charles, had no
interest in Julia or his son."
Recall YOUR claims as ABSOLUTE FACT that he was CHASING HER and she HAD
to run? REMEMBER Jason??
Now I have taken things out of context, but have left the entire article
below. Do you know that under Massachusetts law at the time of their divorce
in the late 80's those seeking a divorce had to state "grounds" for it? Ay
that time "cruel and abusive treatment" was the boiler plate grounds. It's
the one you alleged that you didn't have to prove. If you alleged adultry
then you had to be specific and have a trial. "cruel and abusive" was the
"auickie" divorce of the day. Sorry that as an ignorant idiot you think it
means something. Try reading the WHOLE story.
Apology? No, I don't think I will see one from you. Not only don't you
read ALL of the article, you don't read whay YOU write yourself!
DedNdogYrs
Things are different today. Kids are more advanced. There wasn't sex
harassment in elementary school when I was a child but you hear about it today.
It's ridiculous. As for kids killing themselves, I read about an 8-year-old
who stood on a tenement apartment ledge and then decided to jump off when his
mother began bitching at him yet again.
Dogs & children first.
TPowers
Oh, please. Don't get her started.
TPowers
Remember that kid who hung himself in the back yard because he was fat? I
don't recall his age, but I believe he was around 12.
TPowers
"DedNdogYrs" <dednd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020112064755...@mb-mm.aol.com...
> <I think I would need to see some proof on that one.>
>
> Things are different today. Kids are more advanced. There wasn't sex
> harassment in elementary school when I was a child but you hear about it
today.
Lemme guess: You're a man ....??
Ken
"TPowers" <dee-d...@presidency.com> wrote in message
news:uqX%7.25128$zw3.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Lemme guess, you are NOT?
SteveF
raised my kids in a less informed period of time and things have changed so
much that i haven't kept up. My #1 son tells me I live in the dark ages and
I guess I do.
Steve
SteveF
As much as Maggie is grating on the nerves she is almost always correct.
Steve
>
>
>
Every9man
>
>Steve
So tell me Steve, do you also think that Major Depression is the same as
Clinical Depression and if so why?
Barbara
Luk
SteveF wrote:
> As much as Maggie is grating on the nerves she is almost always correct.
Sometimes correct.
Sometimes incorrect.
But never in doubt.
Luk
TPowers
"Luk" <lukn...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3C4051F9...@bellsouth.net...
...... about her correctness.
SteveF
matters.
Depressed is depressed and they both aren't much fun.
Steve
"Every9man" <ever...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020112100702...@mb-cd.aol.com...
Jason Pope
> > We had a girl kill herself aged about 12 I think.
> > She was being bullied at school!
> >
> > ciao
> >
> > Jason
>
> **
> how does someone that age even know how to kill themselves nevermind even
> know that it can be done?
> Steve
Maybe she'd seen it on a tv programme somewhere, or read about it in one
of her teen magazines?
ciao
Jason
Jason Pope
Sunday, 18 March, 2001, 21:18 GMT
Tiananmen 'suicide' girl dies
Liu Siying was treated for her injuries at Beijing hospital
A 12-year-old girl who doused herself in gasoline and set herself on
fire in Beijing's Tiananmen Square has died of her injuries, according
to reports on Chinese state television.
Liu Siying is believed to have been a member of the outlawed Chinese
Falun Gong sect.
She was among five people, including her mother Liu Chungling who died
at the scene, to stage a protest in Beijing's central square on 23
January this year.
Many Falun Gong followers are middle-aged women
According to the reports, the youngster, who for the past two months has
been receiving treatment for her injuries at Beijing hospital, died of
sudden heart troubles on Sunday night.
The three other members of the group, two women and one man, are still
receiving hospital treatment for their burns.
Falun Gong has denied the five were members of their organisation,
saying its teachings do not condone suicide.
Evil cult
Officials in China used the protest, which took place on the eve of the
country's traditional New Year celebrations, to drive home its message
that Falun Gong was an evil cult.
Disturbing images of the five ablaze in Tiananmen Square were broadcast
on state television.
Falun Gong attracted millions in the 1990s with its mix of traditional
Chinese religion, health exercises and teachings of founder Li Hongzhi,
a former government grain clerk who now lives in exile in the US.
Hundreds of police sealed off the square
The sect was outlawed in July 1999 after the group surprised Chinese
officials when more than 10,000 members surrounded the leadership's
living compound in Beijing demanding official recognition.
Falun Gong members have held regular demonstrations in Tiananmen Square
over the last two years to protest against the government ban.
Thousands of people have been arrested and organisers have received
lengthy jail terms.
The movement also says more than 100 people have been beaten to death in
custody - an allegation denied by the authorities.
Jason Pope
Coroner's anguish over 'bullying' death
Laura's notes said she had been bullied
A coroner has spoken of his "distress" at the suicide of a 14-year-old
girl who took an overdose of painkillers after being bullied at school.
Laura Grimes swallowed about 130 Co-proxamol tablets and left 11 suicide
notes for family and friends, an inquest heard.
Avon and District coroner Paul Forrest recorded a verdict of suicide
while depressed and said the depression arose from the way she was
treated by her friends and colleagues at school.
He said: "In my 20 years of being a coroner, I have never been so
distressed at what this young girl wrote regarding her experiences and
depression.
At no time did I witness any person bullying her nor did she mention
that she was being bullied
Schoolfriend
"The notes and the poems that she left all point to the fact that she
was suffering from depression, being brought on by a number of factors,
the main one being bullied and the rejection by one or two friends as
well."
Laura, who attended Mangotsfield School, died on 20 July.
The inquest at Poole Court, Yate, Bristol, heard that she had complained
to her mother, Susan, about having a problem at school about three or
four months before her death.
Mrs Grimes told the inquest in a statement that Laura had not told her
what the problem was and did not want her to go to school to complain.
She said she had told her daughter that if the problem carried on, she
would talk to her teachers , but Laura had not mentioned it again.
'Depressed and angry'
The inquest heard that unusually Laura had wanted to go to bed early on
the two nights before her death and had asked not to be disturbed.
When she could not wake Laura for school on the Friday morning, Mrs
Grimes called an ambulance, but she and her partner and paramedics
failed to resuscitate her daughter.
A school friend of Laura's for three years said Laura had seemed fine
the morning before her death, although she had been depressed and angry
during the afternoon.
She said: "She had not mentioned to me that she had any problems. At no
time did I witness any person bullying her nor did she mention that she
was being bullied."
A post-mortem examination showed that Laura had 2.11mg of
dextropropoxyphene per litre of blood, with 1mg per litre being
consistent with poisoning.
Hidden packets
The cause of death was given as cardio-respiratory failure caused by the
drug, more commonly known as Co-proxamol.
It had been prescribed to Mrs Grimes's partner's mother.
PC Garry Roberts said his first search of Laura's room had revealed five
suicide notes written in pencil, as well as 13 empty blister packets
hidden in a pillow case, which would all have contained 10 tablets.
A second search revealed six more notes behind the bedside cabinet, and
a couple of the notes referred to bullying at school.
Derek Hall, the headmaster of Mangotsfield school, said that the school
had a very strict policy on bullying, and that there was a helpline for
reporting such incidents.
He added that Laura had never complained of bullying to her tutor, head
of year, or to her large number of friends.
Jason Pope
Tuesday, November 25, 1997 Published at 19:46 GMT
UK
Youths charged with stalking after suicide of 'kind' schoolgirl
Flowers by the house of Kelly Yeoman
Youths arrested in the case of a schoolgirl thought to have killed
herself because of alleged bullying have been charged under new
anti-stalking legislation.
Kelly Yeomans, 13, was found dead at her home in Allenton, Derbyshire,
on September 29 from an apparent overdose.
Her family claims Kelly, a member of the Salvation Army described as a
kind and caring girl, took the painkillers because she was hounded by
bullies.
The remains of eggs and margarine thrown at her house were still visible
on the morning her body was found.
Five youths - aged 13 to 17 years old - have been charged by Derbyshire
Police under the 1997 Protection from Harassment Act.
It is alleged that during the four weeks leading up to Kelly's death the
youths pursued a conduct that amounted to harassment.
A sixth young person, a 15-year-old girl, faces public order charges.
All six have been bailed to appear before Derby Youth Court in January.
An inquest into Kelly's death has been opened and adjourned.
Jason Pope
UK
Teenage bullies convicted
Five boys have admitted harassing 13-year-old Kelly Yeomans, who was
found dead at her home after apparently committing suicide.
The boys, aged 13 to 17 years old, were convicted at Derby Youth Court,
of intentionally harassing Kelly Yeomans in the months before she died
in September, 1997.
Kelly was found dead in her bedroom at her home in Allenton, Derbyshire.
Her family claimed she had taken an overdose of painkillers because she
had been hounded by bullies.
The prosecution said the Yeomans family had been harassed for several
years and were known locally as the Slowmans.
Life 'made a misery'
The Yeomans suffered at their home for several years
The court heard that the gang of five youths had thrown eggs, butter and
stones at the house on the days leading up to Kelly's death.
Kelly, a member of the Salvation Army, was described as a kind and
caring girl. But her parents said her life had been made a misery by the
torment.
The court heard that during a police interview one of the youths said he
had tormented the Yeomans family simply for fun but later wished he
could say sorry.
BBC Correspondent Emma Simpson reports from the court (0'47")
The male defendants - who cannot be named because they are under 18 -
were given unconditional bail to reappear for sentencing on March 4.
A 15-year-old girl who has denied a public order offence was also bailed
unconditionally until her trial in April.
Detention possible
Kelly Yeomans' death shocked the community
Sentencing was deferred for background reports but the chairman of the
bench said he could not rule out a custodial sentence on the older boys
because of the seriousness of the crimes.
One of the defendant's solicitors, John Moss, described the case as a
tragedy from start from finish.
He said that although the harassment did not relate specifically to
Kelly's death the youths would have to live with what happened.
TPowers
> I don't have an opinion on this. From where I sit I can't see where it
> matters.
> Depressed is depressed and they both aren't much fun.
> Steve
.. so do you think you can place an adjective modifier inside a
prepositional phrase and not expect that adjective to directly modify the
subject of that phrase?
Jason Pope
Ken wrote:
>
> "Jason Pope" <serial...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:3C3F3171...@btinternet.com...
>
> > You, my dear man, are so full of bullshit it's seeping out over every
> > one of your orifices!
>
> > From the article below:
> >
> > "As the marriage disintegrated, so did Julia's relationship with her
> > in-laws.
> > She filed for divorce, citing "cruel and abusive" treatment by her
> > husband."
>
> We have already seen you know ZERO about children and child psychology,
> now do you wish to demonstrate for the world you know even LESS about the
> law?
Seems you know very little about reading and context and timelines etc!
>
> > I won't be expecting an apology any time soon!
>
> Don't, it seems YOUR reading is again PISS POOR..
It is your reading that is piss poor!
You take part of that article out of context!
>
> From the article below:
>
> "When that failed, 'they agreed that she would stab Bishara with a 12-inch
> butcher knife and he would then slash her wrists with the same knife,"
> according to the newspaper. But the pain was more than Bishara bargained
> for. At 4 a.m., he asked her to call an ambulance. Paramedics found him on
> the sofa, bleeding heavily with a lacerated liver. When questioned, he
> denied that the pair was in a suicide pact, though she insisted that was the
> case. Detore was charged with assault with a dangerous weapon with intent
> to commit murder. She was ordered to undergo a 20-day evaluation at a state
> hospital in
> Waltham. "
>
> Let's see. YOU claim HE was "BEATING HER SENSELESS and she HAD to RUN
> from HIM." So how come the article says SHE stabbed HIM????????? How come
> SHE was charged?????? Got a SMART assed answer?
Nope I have an answer based on FACTS.
From the article:
"But, for reasons not explained, the license was denied. She was just
17. He was 19.
They returned to her home at 74 Adams St. in Malden.
There, according a newspaper story based on police reports, they became
upset at the failure. They stuffed rags into the tailpipe of her car,
hoping to fill the car with carbon monoxide and kill them both. When
that failed,"....... cue the bit you quoted!!
In other words that particular action happened early in the relationship
when they felt a lot of love for each other such that if they couldn't
be together alive they would be together forever dead.
You see further down that article it says:
"Then, the case disappeared.
No record exists in the District Court for Malden. Records in Malden are
not computerized and it may have simply been lost, or ordered expunged
by a judge.
Charles Bishara's sister said that he refused to cooperate with
prosecutors and that the case against Julia was dropped."
He dropped the case and stayed with her, Ken!
> Now let's READ ON about nthis "BADASS MANIAC..."
>
> " He also began a string of mostly petty, occasionally alcohol-fueled
> crimes that made him familiar to the police in both Malden, and nearby
> Everett, where he lived. He was cited for running a stop sign and driving
> without a license in 1985."
>
> Well now THAT does it. We can know foir sure he was a wild wife beater,
> the son of a bitch was running STOP SIGNS!
> Yep, ALL men who run stop signs BEAT their wives. 100% of them! That is one
> DANGEROUS son of a bitch Jason. He actually RAN A STOP SIGN! That's your
> case. THAT proves that she ran in FEAR of him!
Again you seem to cling to something in your head that says because a
man is violent in the home he must be violent outside that home!
That's blatantly not the case.
My wife's ex-husband was not in trouble with the police before the
attempted murder and was not violent outside the home!
Wife-beaters are cowards outside the home.
They beat up their wives to try to exert power over them, the same power
that they often do not have outside the home.
>
> And then we read this:
>
> "The family readily acknowledges that her ex-husband, Charles, had no
> interest in Julia or his son."
>
So he tells his family and parents everything does he?!
How often did you go to your parents about your violent wife?
> Recall YOUR claims as ABSOLUTE FACT that he was CHASING HER and she HAD
> to run? REMEMBER Jason??
I made the opinion that that was a possibility, yes.
And I still maintain that!
>
> Now I have taken things out of context, but have left the entire article
> below. Do you know that under Massachusetts law at the time of their divorce
> in the late 80's those seeking a divorce had to state "grounds" for it? Ay
> that time "cruel and abusive treatment" was the boiler plate grounds. It's
> the one you alleged that you didn't have to prove. If you alleged adultry
> then you had to be specific and have a trial. "cruel and abusive" was the
> "auickie" divorce of the day. Sorry that as an ignorant idiot you think it
> means something. Try reading the WHOLE story.
Your talking out of your ass Ken!
There was plenty of other things around then that WERE the "boiler
plate" grounds. Irretrievable breakdown for instance.
It didn't put blame on any single party.
>
> Apology? No, I don't think I will see one from you. Not only don't you
> read ALL of the article, you don't read whay YOU write yourself!
>
Ken, you cannot read!
Simple but obvious fact!
It's becoming increasingly boring for me to keep replying to your
generalised bullshit!
ciao
Jason
SteveF
>
>
Ken
> > > From the article below:
> > > "As the marriage disintegrated, so did Julia's relationship with her
in-laws.
> > > She filed for divorce, citing "cruel and abusive" treatment by her
husband."
> > We have already seen you know ZERO about children and child
psychology,
> > now do you wish to demonstrate for the world you know even LESS about
the law?
> Seems you know very little about reading and context and timelines etc!
It seems to indicate after 1986 which is the year they got married.
> > > I won't be expecting an apology any time soon!
> > Don't, it seems YOUR reading is again PISS POOR..
> It is your reading that is piss poor! You take part of that article out
of context!
Not as badly as you. And I did so ACCURATELY!
So THAT explains the LACK of demonstrated FACTUAL violence on HIS part?
> They returned to her home at 74 Adams St. in Malden.
> There, according a newspaper story based on police reports, they became
> upset at the failure. They stuffed rags into the tailpipe of her car,
> hoping to fill the car with carbon monoxide and kill them both. When
> that failed,"....... cue the bit you quoted!!
> In other words that particular action happened early in the relationship
> when they felt a lot of love for each other such that if they couldn't
> be together alive they would be together forever dead.
But that was the *ONLY* incident of "VIOLENCE" that the article YOU
quoted, and it was BY HER and NOT him! THAT, young man IS the point you
miss.
> You see further down that article it says:
> "Then, the case disappeared.
> No record exists in the District Court for Malden. Records in Malden are
> not computerized and it may have simply been lost, or ordered expunged
> by a judge.
> Charles Bishara's sister said that he refused to cooperate with
> prosecutors and that the case against Julia was dropped."
> He dropped the case and stayed with her, Ken!
Did you forget that YOUR POINT was that HE was violent? When SHE stabs
HIM (regardless of the circumstances) and HE refuses to press charges (which
he shoudl have done given their agreement) is FAILS utterly to make YOUR
POINT that he abused HER. Which is what you TRIED to do with the artcile. It
just doesn't support your claims.
> > Now let's READ ON about nthis "BADASS MANIAC..."
>
> > " He also began a string of mostly petty, occasionally alcohol-fueled
> > crimes that made him familiar to the police in both Malden, and nearby
> > Everett, where he lived. He was cited for running a stop sign and
driving
> > without a license in 1985."
> > Well now THAT does it. We can know foir sure he was a wild wife
beater,
> > the son of a bitch was running STOP SIGNS!
> > Yep, ALL men who run stop signs BEAT their wives. 100% of them! That is
one
> > DANGEROUS son of a bitch Jason. He actually RAN A STOP SIGN! That's your
> > case. THAT proves that she ran in FEAR of him!
> Again you seem to cling to something in your head that says because a
> man is violent in the home he must be violent outside that home!
> That's blatantly not the case.
But you have ZERO evidence in THIS case. And the things you have used to
support you DON'T!
> Your talking out of your ass Ken! There was plenty of other things around
then that WERE the "boiler
> plate" grounds. Irretrievable breakdown for instance. It didn't put
blame on any single party.
Not in Massachusetts at THAT time Buddy! Massachusetts didn't have that
till the 90's.
TPowers
Zing!! hehehe.
Well, it looks like the Magster is 0-2 on "correctness" so far ... care to
retract your original claim?
Linda Griffith
<s.r.fl...@att.net> wrote in message
> >news:aYo%7.243908$WW.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >> I wonder how many people have actually seen the suicide note?
> >> I hope we can trust the Feds and the Tampa police not to distort what
> >really
> >> happened. I mean we really believe there was a note..right?
> >> It wasn't something silly like .. a couple of young hot shot CG chopper
> >> pilots were trying to bring this joyriding kid down and instead got him
> >so
> >> confused that he smashed into that building by accident.
> >> Just a thought....
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> steve said:
> >I just read that it is almost unheard of for kids to commit suicide in a
> >public manner and very rarely before they drive. One site claims that a
> >15
> >year old suicide might be the lowest on record.
>
> ***Well, that site would be dead wrong.
>
> Maggie < knew an 11-year-old who took his father's rifle into the woods,
> removed his shoes and socks and pulled the trigger with his toes
"Dead wrong"? It merely said, "15...*might* be the lowest on record."
Additionally, killing oneself in the woods isn't exactly suicide in a public
manner.
I hope Steve's scenario is far-fetched. However, I've wondered all along
why the suicide note hasn't been made public. An interpretation that the
boy expressed sympathy for bin Laden could reflect anything from "I have a
lot in common with Osama bin Laden; people hate me, too" to "I'm glad ObL
attacked the U.S., and I wish I could've been a part of it."
How could publishing the note interfere with the investigation?
Linda
SteveF
"Linda Griffith" <grif...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:u41rhge...@corp.supernews.com...
I can see how it might interfere if there were additional people involved.
Even his mother hasn't seen the note and she strongly opposes the police
justification that he was a troubled youth. She claims he was patriotic, not
shy and happy.
Point to Ponder - his dad from Massachusetts still hasn't been located by
police.
Steve
>
SteveF
This is a website based upon Columbia Presbyterian NYC data concerning
suicide in the United States.
It shows a graph of rates vs ages and quite surprisingly the numbers for
children under 15 is high.
15 year old white males in 1996 (latest year in survey) had a rate of 10 out
of 100,000. The rate for a 20 year old white males is only double that. The
highest incidences occur in the western US and Alaska. Lowest in the south
and northeast.
In 1993, 230 boys and 85 girls aged between 10 and 14 committed suicide in
the United States or about 7% of all deaths occurring in this age group.
My uninformed comment previously was based on data collected from less
official sites.
Steve
Jason Pope
> > It is your reading that is piss poor! You take part of that article out
> of context!
>
> Not as badly as you. And I did so ACCURATELY!
>
Hardly!
you took a bit out of the article and made up some bullshit to fit it!
> > > SHE was charged?????? Got a SMART assed answer?
>
> > Nope I have an answer based on FACTS.
> > From the article:
>
> > "But, for reasons not explained, the license was denied. She was just 17.
> He was 19.
>
> So THAT explains the LACK of demonstrated FACTUAL violence on HIS part?
>
Nope it just proves that you took a line about the START of their
relationship which most likely had nothing to do with why they
eventually split up!
Many "sweethearts" when they feel they cannot be together attempt to
enter into a suicide pact.
The fact that the 'father' did not press charges indicates that her
story about a pact was most likely correct!
> > They returned to her home at 74 Adams St. in Malden.
> > There, according a newspaper story based on police reports, they became
> > upset at the failure. They stuffed rags into the tailpipe of her car,
> > hoping to fill the car with carbon monoxide and kill them both. When
> > that failed,"....... cue the bit you quoted!!
>
> > In other words that particular action happened early in the relationship
> > when they felt a lot of love for each other such that if they couldn't
> > be together alive they would be together forever dead.
>
> But that was the *ONLY* incident of "VIOLENCE" that the article YOU
> quoted, and it was BY HER and NOT him! THAT, young man IS the point you
> miss.
>
> > You see further down that article it says:
>
> > "Then, the case disappeared.
> > No record exists in the District Court for Malden. Records in Malden are
> > not computerized and it may have simply been lost, or ordered expunged
> > by a judge.
> > Charles Bishara's sister said that he refused to cooperate with
> > prosecutors and that the case against Julia was dropped."
>
> > He dropped the case and stayed with her, Ken!
>
> Did you forget that YOUR POINT was that HE was violent? When SHE stabs
> HIM (regardless of the circumstances) and HE refuses to press charges (which
> he shoudl have done given their agreement) is FAILS utterly to make YOUR
> POINT that he abused HER. Which is what you TRIED to do with the artcile. It
> just doesn't support your claims.
Ken, they attempted the suicide pact well before they eventually split
and divorced. The violence was part of a suicide pact at that time and
as such she fully expected him to stab her as well.
Violence that early in the relationship does not negate the possibility
of further violence by either party further on in the relationship, even
though that is what you seem to think!
>
> > > Now let's READ ON about nthis "BADASS MANIAC..."
> >
> > > " He also began a string of mostly petty, occasionally alcohol-fueled
> > > crimes that made him familiar to the police in both Malden, and nearby
> > > Everett, where he lived. He was cited for running a stop sign and
> driving
> > > without a license in 1985."
>
> > > Well now THAT does it. We can know foir sure he was a wild wife
> beater,
> > > the son of a bitch was running STOP SIGNS!
> > > Yep, ALL men who run stop signs BEAT their wives. 100% of them! That is
> one
> > > DANGEROUS son of a bitch Jason. He actually RAN A STOP SIGN! That's your
> > > case. THAT proves that she ran in FEAR of him!
>
> > Again you seem to cling to something in your head that says because a
> > man is violent in the home he must be violent outside that home!
> > That's blatantly not the case.
>
> But you have ZERO evidence in THIS case. And the things you have used to
> support you DON'T!
There's the grounds for divorce Ken, "cruelty and abuse by the
husband". Seems that he didn't challenge that grounds either!!
>
> > Your talking out of your ass Ken! There was plenty of other things around
> then that WERE the "boiler
> > plate" grounds. Irretrievable breakdown for instance. It didn't put
> blame on any single party.
>
> Not in Massachusetts at THAT time Buddy! Massachusetts didn't have that
> till the 90's.
Cite, proof!?!
I doubt that "cruelty and abuse by husband" could be seen as boiler
plate, especially as it apportions blame to only one party and a "boiler
plate" grounds does not apportion blame to any single person!
ciao
Jason
Ken
> I doubt that "cruelty and abuse by husband" could be seen as boiler
> plate, especially as it apportions blame to only one party and a "boiler
> plate" grounds does not apportion blame to any single person!
You doubt it because of IGNORANCE. Learn something about divorce law.
Jason Pope
Cite it to me Ken!
If it's that common you should be able to give me an url for it!
ciao
Jason
Maggie
>> >news:aYo%7.243908$WW.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> >> I wonder how many people have actually seen the suicide note?
>> >> I hope we can trust the Feds and the Tampa police not to distort what
>> >really
>> >> happened. I mean we really believe there was a note..right?
>> >> It wasn't something silly like .. a couple of young hot shot CG chopper
>> >> pilots were trying to bring this joyriding kid down and instead got
>him
>> >so
>> >> confused that he smashed into that building by accident.
>> >> Just a thought....
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> steve said:
>> >I just read that it is almost unheard of for kids to commit suicide in
>a
>> >public manner and very rarely before they drive. One site claims that
>a
>> >15
>> >year old suicide might be the lowest on record.
>>
>> ***Well, that site would be dead wrong.
>>
>> Maggie < knew an 11-year-old who took his father's rifle into the woods,
>> removed his shoes and socks and pulled the trigger with his toes
>
>**
>I think I would need to see some proof on that one.
***I see from reading through the posts that you've gotten your answer on the
suicides of young adolescents. FWIW, this particular suicide occurred almost
thirty years ago and the suicider was the younger brother of a friend of mine.
Interestingly enough, years later when my mother was telling me about the major
depressions this friend of mine (an adult by then) and his father were going
through at the same, she said something on the order of, "Isn't it strange that
out of the blue a family with no history of depression would have two members
become depressed at the same time?" "Well, duh, mom," I said, "Remember
Charlie?" "Oh, he didn't commit suicide--that was an accident." My
father--good friends with the suicider's dad--set her straight, but I think it
was pretty common in those days (and now, I suppose) for suicides to be covered
up.
Here's another one: Several years ago the 14-year-old son of a neighbor had a
fight with his mom about curfew (the fight was in the afternoon after school),
ran up to his room, slammed his door and hanged himself with a belt hooked over
a nail above his closet door. This is one of the Accutane-related suicides I
mentioned earlier--at least I think it is. Another neighbor told me several
years ago that the boy had been taking some acne medicine that his parents were
blaming for the suicide. I though it was nuts at the time, but as I've found
out more, I've begun to think there's very likely something there.
Maggie
"There are no stupid questions. There are, however, many inquisitive idiots."
-- Unknown
Maggie
>**
>As much as Maggie is grating on the nerves she is almost always correct.
***You're a brave man, steve fletcher.