Cary Stayner's Confession
George Orwell
confession made by Cary Stayner?
Bo Raxo
"George Orwell" <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
news:3f435d02cac89938...@mixmaster.it...
> Anyone know where I can find online the complete 103 page
> confession made by Cary Stayner?
>
What's the need, regular porn doesn't do it for you anymore?
Hester888Mofet
Oh, come on, Bo. I read the whole Ridgway confession that was published and I
was not doing it to get off.
Hester Mofet
Bo Raxo
"Hester888Mofet" <hester8...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031225194615...@mb-m22.aol.com...
Yes, but there's a difference. Stayner's confession talks about his
obsession with child porn, and his repeatedly offering to confess if they
will just get him some kiddy porn to look at. He even specified the
quantities he wanted (how many magazines, etc.).
Which is where I get the whole jerking-off angle from when I profile this
request.
Hester888Mofet
Ewwww... yeah, I guess that was a bit too...prurient.
Hester Mofet
ChuckM
myra_nelson
Bo's an idiot. mn
Bo Raxo
<Myra Nelson> wrote in message
news:3feb94ce$0$18388$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
And yet, after I pointed out the kiddy porn stuff in Stayner's confession,
Hester agreed with me.
Maybe you want to read the whole thread before you make a fool of yourself.
Then again, that would not be in keeping with the whole fool motif, would
it?
So why are you so cranky? Husband left you, spending the holidays with a
woman who is attractive instead? Alcoholic relatives depress you? 'Cause
I'm thinking you have issues.
Jeff
Guess you must have read it yourself huh?
myra_nelson
"Bo Raxo" <invasio...@thepentagon.removethis.com> wrote in
message
news:FPMGb.19859$Pg1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> <Myra Nelson> wrote in message
> news:3feb94ce$0$18388$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >
> > "Hester888Mofet" <hester8...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20031225194615...@mb-m22.aol.com...
> > > Bo Raxo wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >"George Orwell" <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
> > > >news:3f435d02cac89938...@mixmaster.it...
> > > >> Anyone know where I can find online the complete 103 page
> > > >> confession made by Cary Stayner?
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >What's the need, regular porn doesn't do it for you anymore?
> > >
> > > Oh, come on, Bo. I read the whole Ridgway confession that was
> > published and I
> > > was not doing it to get off.
> > >
> > > Hester Mofet
> >
> > Bo's an idiot. mn
> >
>
> And yet, after I pointed out the kiddy porn stuff in Stayner's
confession,
> Hester agreed with me.
>
> Maybe you want to read the whole thread before you make a fool of
yourself.
*Did* read the whole thread before I posted, you witless old
bonehead. I then decided where I wanted to insert my brief post.
You frequently post with little or no knowledge of case(s) or facts
under discussion because you're a fool who likes the sound of his
own typing. mn
Bo Raxo
<Myra Nelson> wrote in message
>
>
> *Did* read the whole thread before I posted, you witless old
> bonehead. I then decided where I wanted to insert my brief post.
> You frequently post with little or no knowledge of case(s) or facts
> under discussion because you're a fool who likes the sound of his
> own typing. mn
Then by all means, post on one of those threads where I supposedly don't
know what I'm typing about.
Because on this one, I'm entirely right. The discussion of Stayners
confession and his extensive discussion of his kiddy porn obsession, and
offering to confess if provided with kiddy porn, was all over the press.
You seem very angry. What's the matter, even after years of hormone therapy
nobody remotely believes you're a woman?
Messalina
You know, thats was very funny, but it was also very mean.
Mez
Messalina
That is as may be. But he's interesting. You're not.
Sorry to be blunt.
Mez
Bo Raxo
"Messalina" <sec...@duelingoak.com> wrote in message
news:7111e10e.03122...@posting.google.com...
You just summed me up in one sentence.
Now I can go ahead and order my headstone, you've given me the perfect
inscription.
Someday maybe I'll learn to be funny without being mean. Then I can go on
to a brilliant career in comedy, and deny ever knowing any of you. Bwaa haa
haa!
Nah, can't give up the mean part. Guess you're stuck with me.
Bo
George Orwell
"ChuckM" <kss...@consolidated.net> wrote:
>
> Heres some excerpts http://www.sfgate.com/stayner/
Thanks but I know how to search.
I want the whole transcript.
I couldn't even offer a guess as to how many times I've read
that "everything is on the Internet".
My experience is just the opposite, nothing is available online.
It is kind of astonishing that something as well publicized as this
wasn't posted to this NG. The transcript was released to the public.
I imagine you can still purchase it from the courthouse in California
where Staynor was tried for copying costs yet it can't be found online.
It's my understanding that no one can communicate via mail with Staynor
either.
I'm just intensely curious as to what is in his confession that is so
horrible yet it was made public.
myra_nelson
>
> <Myra Nelson> wrote in message
> news:3febdeea$0$18390$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >
> >
> > *Did* read the whole thread before I posted, you witless old
> > bonehead. I then decided where I wanted to insert my brief post.
> > You frequently post with little or no knowledge of case(s) or
facts
> > under discussion because you're a fool who likes the sound of
his
> > own typing. mn
>
>
> Then by all means, post on one of those threads where I
supposedly don't
> know what I'm typing about.
>
> Because on this one, I'm entirely right.
By *Christ* you're an idiot. LOL! mn
myra_nelson
No need to be sorry. I usually skip your posts too. mn
Bo Raxo
<Myra Nelson> wrote in message
>
> "Messalina" <sec...@duelingoak.com> wrote in message
> news:7111e10e.03122...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > Sorry to be blunt.
> >
> > Mez
>
> No need to be sorry. I usually skip your posts too. mn
>
That's one of the great things about the United States: the freedom to
remain ignorant.
Glad to see you exercising it so freely. However, I fail to understand why
you need to bitch and moan about it.
Fortunately, that brings up another great right in my native country: the
freedom to not care why some whack job has some particular outlook.
Aussie Lurker
> Oh, come on, Bo. I read the whole Ridgway confession that was published
and I
> was not doing it to get off.
>
Same here. I have not had the time to read the whole confession but have
read most of it. Also like you Hester I am not reading it to "get off".
Aussie Lurker
Scorpi...@attnospam.net
What the fuck is a "Myra Nelson" and who let it out?
--
Like a game of pick up stick played by fucking lunatics
Jeff
wrote:
Obviously Bo has read the confession and used the kiddie porn
references contained in the confession to "get off" himself.
Bo Raxo
"Jeff" <J...@jft.com> wrote in message
news:3fec64e6...@news.chartertn.net...
No, I get turned on watching you stick your head up your ass. At the rate
you're going, I'll never have to rent porn again.
myra_nelson
Brilliant you are. mn (LOL)
Mke
If you do find it please post,
Mke
tinydancer
"Mke" <Noa...@homail.com> wrote in message
news:3fed049a$0$4757$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
I thought I heard somewhere that the details of the sexual assaults on the
girls were of a nature that it wasn't wanted to make them public. I mean, I
think the family didn't want the details of the assaults on the two teen
girls made public.
td
>
Jeff
Wow..what a witty comeback!
George Orwell
"tinydancer" <tinyd...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I thought I heard somewhere that the details of the sexual assaults on the
> girls were of a nature that it wasn't wanted to make them public. I mean, I
> think the family didn't want the details of the assaults on the two teen
> girls made public.
>
> td
> >
The transcript was made public, it's just that no one has published it in
its entirety.
As for the assaults on the two girls, that was made public by the San Francisco
Chronicle (or Examiner) and it wasn't easy reading, particularly his interaction
with Julie.
He was very talkative and he spoke of fantasies as being behind his actions,
and the strange fantasies having started as young as 6 years old. I'm wondering
if some of these fantasies are what was too sick.
Bundy claimed to have been plagued by fantasies that he finally felt compelled
to act on.
I find this part intensely interesting because the consensus from the psychiatric
field -as far as we are told- is that sexual predators and people who have such
fantasies are incurable.
I don't buy this.
Surely a very large segment of the public have adulterous fantasies about people
they know and never act upon these fantasies (though many do).
Now state governments are enacting laws so that people characterized in this
way are not released back into society after serving their sentences.
This also leads to the complete lack of mental health treatment for people
who like Stayner were not really sane no matter what the damn jury thought.
John Hinckley is one of the very few people who has been treated after
committing a serious violent crime. After Hinckley, those who committed
murder have all been sent to prisons and gone untreated.
I suppose those people will never be released given the change in sentencing,
but it is a disturbing road we have gone down as a country. The difference
between Europe and America on such issues is quite stark.
I thought Ron Reagan Jr's comments about how Hinckley should now be sent to prison
were appalling. That's like saying that a sleep walker who leaves the house and
walks into traffic should be held responsible for causing the accident.
mary Adrian
women. In my opinion he should have been taken out behind the
courthouse on the day he was found guilty and hung from the nearest
tree.
Patty
"tinydancer" <tinyd...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:c_7Hb.17702$ED.1...@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
:
: "Mke" <Noa...@homail.com> wrote in message
No, what happened was that the Modesto Bee was going to print the
transcript of the confession when it was made public, but the reporter
covering the murders went and read them and decided they were too
graphic and he in good conscience did not want it published in the
paper.
JC wrote Smoking Gun last year and asked if they would print it but
they said no since there wasn't much interest in the case anymore.
Patty
Restraint serves all this time
October 14, 2001 Posted: 09:06:00 AM PDT
By Mark Vasché
EXECUTIVE EDITOR
Modesto Bee
Among the many freedoms we enjoy, and take for granted as Americans, is the
freedom of the press.
At The Bee, we're well aware we've been given the right to publish news and
information with very few restrictions.
We're also well aware that with that right comes responsibility -- to our
community, to our readers and to our profession. And, we're well aware that
rights and responsibility occasionally are in direct conflict.
That was the case last week, when we faced the dilemma of whether or not to
print some information that we had gone to court and fought to access.
The information in question was Cary Stayner's detailed confession in the
Yosemite sightseer murders, one of the most horrific and heavily reported crimes
ever in this area.
Bee reporter Mike Mooney previously had written about the confession in June,
after listening to the tape recording during Stayner's preliminary hearing.
Because of the graphic nature of the recording, and concerns over whether
Stayner could receive a fair trial in Mariposa County, neither the tape nor the
transcript was made public after the hearing.
The Bee, joined by other news media, went to court, arguing that the public
should have access to the confession that was played during the hearing. A
Mariposa Superior Court judge agreed, and last week ordered the transcript
entered into the official court record, thus making it available to the public
and the press.
A Bee reporter went to Mariposa on Tuesday and picked up a copy of the 103-page
transcript. Our intent was to run a short story Wednesday reporting that the
transcript was in fact now part of the court record, summarize the contents, and
then refer people to our www.modbee.com site, where they could read the entire
transcript.
Then I read the transcript.
I've read a lot of graphic and gruesome stuff during my years as a journalist,
but nothing this disgusting and depraved.
Knowing we could publish it, I struggled with the reasons we should or should
not publish it. It was, after all, public information. It was, after all, a key
part of the case. And it was, after all, one of the biggest crime stories we've
ever covered. But, the detail was so repulsive and revolting -- I'm still
troubled by the sheer evil of what I read days ago. No editor's note or warning
could prepare readers for what they would learn. There was no practical way to
edit or excerpt the transcript. There was no way to prevent children or teens
from detail they shouldn't be exposed to. And, finally, there was no way the
transcript wouldn't attract some very sick people, or be reproduced and used in
some very sick ways. Some of those things still may happen, but we won't be part
of it.
Those thoughts and more led me to decide to not publish the transcripts.
We had -- and still have -- the right to publish the material. But we also had
-- and still have -- that responsibility, to the people and communities we
serve, to use sensitivity and sound judgment in deciding what we do and do not
publish.
I'm glad we went to court -- this newspaper will continue to do whatever is
necessary to protect the public's right to know.
I'm glad the judge ruled the way he did -- ordering the transcript to be part of
the official record that is accessible to any and all who want to view it.
And, I'm glad we decided to not publish the transcript -- even though we had
every right to do so, we exercised responsible restraint.
Child
"George Orwell" <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
> I find this part intensely interesting because the consensus from the
psychiatric
> field -as far as we are told- is that sexual predators and people who have
such
> fantasies are incurable.
Thats not exactly how I understand it. What I understand is that you can't
rewire someones' sexuality. You can perhaps teach them not to act on it,
but you cannot make someone who is turned on by raping little boys suddenly
turned on by mushy romantic sex with adult women.
scooter34
>
> Bundy claimed to have been plagued by fantasies that he finally felt compelled
> to act on.
>
> I find this part intensely interesting because the consensus from the psychiatric
> field -as far as we are told- is that sexual predators and people who have such
> fantasies are incurable.
>
> I don't buy this.
Please do buy this. The fantasies that sexual predators have are in
no way related to the fantasies you later refer to as "adulturous".
The fantasies are based in domination, cruelty, and possession. This
is not a matter of coveting your neighbor's wife - it's a matter of
seeing her look at you in terror, cower on the floor at your feet, or
scream as you torture them.
Where Bundy lied is in his assertion that porn drove him to kill.
Believe him when he said he could no longer resist the lure of his
dark fantasies.
tinydancer
"scooter34" <momofpe...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1731eefe.03122...@posting.google.com...
> George Orwell <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
news:<203766d848c5c895...@mixmaster.it>...
>
> >
> > Bundy claimed to have been plagued by fantasies that he finally felt
compelled
> > to act on.
> >
> > I find this part intensely interesting because the consensus from the
psychiatric
> > field -as far as we are told- is that sexual predators and people who
have such
> > fantasies are incurable.
> >
> > I don't buy this.
>
> Please do buy this. The fantasies that sexual predators have are in
> no way related to the fantasies you later refer to as "adulturous".
> The fantasies are based in domination, cruelty, and possession. This
> is not a matter of coveting your neighbor's wife - it's a matter of
> seeing her look at you in terror, cower on the floor at your feet, or
> scream as you torture them.
Very well stated,
td
Hester888Mofet
>"scooter34" <momofpe...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>news:1731eefe.03122...@posting.google.com...
>> George Orwell <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
>news:<203766d848c5c895...@mixmaster.it>...
>>
>> >
>> > Bundy claimed to have been plagued by fantasies that he finally felt
>compelled
>> > to act on.
>> >
>> > I find this part intensely interesting because the consensus from the
>psychiatric
>> > field -as far as we are told- is that sexual predators and people who
>have such
>> > fantasies are incurable.
>> >
>> > I don't buy this.
>>
>> Please do buy this. The fantasies that sexual predators have are in
>> no way related to the fantasies you later refer to as "adulturous".
>> The fantasies are based in domination, cruelty, and possession. This
>> is not a matter of coveting your neighbor's wife - it's a matter of
>> seeing her look at you in terror, cower on the floor at your feet, or
>> scream as you torture them.
>
>
>Very well stated,
>
>td
Hmmm.... there are plenty of people who want to see someone look at them in
terror, cower on the floor at their feet, or scream as they are tortured and
they do it with consensual partners.
Hester Mofet
vivisectrix
Scooter:
>>Bundy claimed to have been plagued by fantasies that he finally felt
>>compelled to act on.
>>I find this part intensely interesting because the consensus from the
>>psychiatric field -as far as we are told- is that sexual predators and
>>people who have such fantasies are incurable.
(note: I'm primarily responding to the surmise, "..and people who have
such fantasies are incurable.")
>>I don't buy this.
I don't either. But the Jury is still out.
>Please do buy this. The fantasies that sexual predators have are in no
>way related to the fantasies you later refer to as "adulturous". The
>fantasies are based in domination, cruelty, and possession. This is not
>a matter of coveting your neighbor's wife - it's a matter of seeing her
>look at you in terror, cower on the floor at your feet, or scream as you
>torture them.
FYI... as a person who has such fantasies, I can attest that they also
include death throes.
Excepting the fact that my victim profile includes both men and women (and
as I said, my sexual interests go beyond terror and torture and end with
the death of my fantasy victim) you've described my fantasies quite well.
I want to see them cowering in terror from me, screaming in agony, and
finally begging for death at my hands.
I'll go further and admit that my fantasies began long before puberty,
that my fantasies are often invasive, that they wax and wane and are
sometimes almost unbearable, that I've had periods in my life when I've
actively stalked strangers who fit my victim profile, that I feel empathy
for people like Cary Staynor and Ted Bundy (even though I have a personal
belief system that says they've been excessively rude by acting on their
fantasies), and that I'm completely incapable of orgasm without the
fantasy of causing ultimate terror and agony.
I'm in my 40s and if you met me in the solid world, you'd never even
consider the possibility that my mind works like it does... partly because
I'm female, and partly because my lifestyle and stated priorities make me
seem about as harmless as any human being could possibly appear. There are
a few select people here (and a few more in my "real life" who know my
real name and the lifestyle I lead, who like me as I am, who know that I
am also "Vivi", and they simply do not believe I could be bad (or "evil").
They believe, no matter what I say, that I'm honestly a good woman. By
society's standards, I won't argue that I live a "good" life. But what I'm
saying here, what I'm repeating about my inner self, is exactly as real
and true as my surface life. This *is* who I am.
So far, I've never had to act on my ultimate fantasies. But I want to make
it very clear that it makes me really sad that I probably never will "get
to" (or allow myself to) do that. It feels the way I imagine someone feels
when one priority (say the death of a parent and the needs of one's
family) has overruled a dream (say forcing a young adult to take over the
family farm, rather than attend University to become a physician). I have
a priority, and it's important to me, so it outweighs my sexual desires
and dreams, but that makes me sad.
The way that I've taken care of my "needs" is by playing S&M "games" with
willing partners. I've been doing that for on some level for at least 30
years, although I didn't get the education I needed to do it under "safe
and sane" guidelines within the BDSM subcommunity until the last 15 years
or so. And in my childhood I was horribly abusive and sadistic with my
siblings and playmates. The priority that has overwhelmed my life for the
last 25 years is almost finished. I'll be "free" in a few years. I still
don't know if I'll go for my fantasies at that time or not. I kind of
doubt it. I wouldn't say I have a conscience... I'm not even sure what
that is. I do have a belief system that clearly outlines polite and rude
activities, and it would be rude to kill people for fun. But there are
other behaviors that I consider rude, and I've chosen to do some of them
in the past, without feeling anything that I could call "guilt". I may
choose to fulfill my fantasies someday. As I said... the Jury is still
out.
But not today.
Does that make me incurable? Guess we'll find out when I die... unless I
go for it and get caught before that.
Vivi
--
I wanna play with a pathetic suicidal masochist. If you qualify,
or if you're just curious, you might find me on irc.bondage.com
in channel #torture.
Child
"vivisectrix" <vivis...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hi Honey,
I hope you are doing ok. I have missed you. Please send me your email
addy again - da...@alaska.com. Been trying to check on you.
Yes, you most definitely come across as a harmless, kind woman. I believe
that you ARE kind. I have wondered if you are a multiple because of the
duality of what you tell me as opposed to what I see in you.
> So far, I've never had to act on my ultimate fantasies. But I want to make
> it very clear that it makes me really sad that I probably never will "get
> to" (or allow myself to) do that. It feels the way I imagine someone feels
> when one priority (say the death of a parent and the needs of one's
> family) has overruled a dream (say forcing a young adult to take over the
> family farm, rather than attend University to become a physician). I have
> a priority, and it's important to me, so it outweighs my sexual desires
> and dreams, but that makes me sad.
Virtual reality might help you someday. You think?
> The way that I've taken care of my "needs" is by playing S&M "games" with
> willing partners. I've been doing that for on some level for at least 30
> years, although I didn't get the education I needed to do it under "safe
> and sane" guidelines within the BDSM subcommunity until the last 15 years
> or so. And in my childhood I was horribly abusive and sadistic with my
> siblings and playmates. The priority that has overwhelmed my life for the
> last 25 years is almost finished. I'll be "free" in a few years. I still
> don't know if I'll go for my fantasies at that time or not. I kind of
> doubt it. I wouldn't say I have a conscience... I'm not even sure what
> that is. I do have a belief system that clearly outlines polite and rude
> activities, and it would be rude to kill people for fun. But there are
> other behaviors that I consider rude, and I've chosen to do some of them
> in the past, without feeling anything that I could call "guilt". I may
> choose to fulfill my fantasies someday. As I said... the Jury is still
> out.
I suspect a new "priority" will emerge. Its in your nature.
Bo Raxo
>
>
> I'll go further and admit that my fantasies began long before puberty,
> that my fantasies are often invasive, that they wax and wane and are
> sometimes almost unbearable, that I've had periods in my life when I've
> actively stalked strangers who fit my victim profile, that I feel empathy
> for people like Cary Staynor and Ted Bundy (even though I have a personal
> belief system that says they've been excessively rude by acting on their
> fantasies), and that I'm completely incapable of orgasm without the
> fantasy of causing ultimate terror and agony.
Thank you for sharing this personal information with us; I think it's very
educational to understand the inner emotional life of people who experience
such urges.
>
> I'm in my 40s and if you met me in the solid world, you'd never even
> consider the possibility that my mind works like it does... partly because
> I'm female, and partly because my lifestyle and stated priorities make me
> seem about as harmless as any human being could possibly appear.
Yeah, Bundy looked like a nice guy to have a beer with. People are funny
about appearances, I've seen some remarkably stupid assumptions.
<snip>
> So far, I've never had to act on my ultimate fantasies. But I want to make
> it very clear that it makes me really sad that I probably never will "get
> to" (or allow myself to) do that.
I wouldn't be so certain. The same horny urge that provided the impetus to
develop the home VCR in the late seventies, and which fuelled much of the
early dial-up spread of internet access among non-technical home users, will
power the development of virtual reality technology. While VR has endless
entertainment (and other) applications, porn buyers are the natural early
adopters.
Computer technology makes possible a scalable business model for
distributing neccesary hardware and recouping engineering costs, resulting
in a downward cost spiral more rapid than we saw with the VCR or even the
DVD player.
Your life expectancy, barring health or lifestyle factors of which I am
unaware, is in the low 80s. A 15-25 year time frame, in my highly
unqualified opinion, is a likely period to develop immersive displays and
sensory feedback technology and get it in an affordable consumer package
format.
So within your lifetime, you may be able to kill, say, Johnny Depp, for
$19.95 pay-per-view.
Hang in there, killer. Nastier days are a comin'.
Bo Raxo
Chocolic
Who-oa, what a shocking post, Vivi. Are you that way because of child
abuse, born that way or just a sexual preference? I always wondered what
caused the attraction to BDSM. I'm not being sarcastic or a smart ass.
Just very curious.
Chocolic
Nitamargarita
Thanks for sharing that. Good to hear from you, it's been a while and I'd
wondered if you where still around.
Nita
> --
> I wanna play with a pathetic suicidal masochist. If you qualify,
> or if you're just curious, you might find me on irc.bondage.com
> in channel #torture.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/12/2003
Bo Raxo
"Chocolic" <chatt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fq8Ib.560388$0v4.22...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Who-oa, what a shocking post, Vivi. Are you that way because of child
> abuse, born that way or just a sexual preference? I always wondered what
> caused the attraction to BDSM. I'm not being sarcastic or a smart ass.
> Just very curious.
>
> Chocolic
Few of these people are reacting to childhood abuse. It appears to be some
kind of early-imprint fetish, similar to how some folks get off on leather,
or stuffed animals, or whatever.
In fact, someone who suffered abuse as a child is more likely to feel
conflicted about such urges, and thus not be able to enjoy them as a form of
sexual play: it stirs up feelings that dampen the feedback loop neccesary
for a fetish to work.
Child
>
> "Chocolic" <chatt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:fq8Ib.560388$0v4.22...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> >
> > Who-oa, what a shocking post, Vivi. Are you that way because of child
> > abuse, born that way or just a sexual preference? I always wondered
what
> > caused the attraction to BDSM. I'm not being sarcastic or a smart ass.
> > Just very curious.
> >
> > Chocolic
>
> Few of these people are reacting to childhood abuse. It appears to be some
> kind of early-imprint fetish, similar to how some folks get off on
leather,
> or stuffed animals, or whatever.
which could be formed by childhood abuse.
> In fact, someone who suffered abuse as a child is more likely to feel
> conflicted about such urges, and thus not be able to enjoy them as a form
of
> sexual play: it stirs up feelings that dampen the feedback loop neccesary
> for a fetish to work.
Now THAT sounds like Vivi.
vivisectrix
>Are you that way because of child abuse
I was physically and sexually abused as a child.
>born that way
My biological father was a sadistic predator. If it's hereditary, I come
by it legitimately.
>or just a sexual preference?
I don't believe that sexuality is a preference. It just is.
I've given up trying to figure out why I'm the way I am. Living in my skin
without being miserable is a lot more important to me than figuring out
why I exist.
Chocolic
It sounds as if you really did have a torturous childhood. I wonder if
your father did. Is he still alive? If so, I hope he is locked up. Do
you have other sibs that suffered as you did? My father was a pedophile,
and tho I have a few good memories of him (weird isn't it, but he really
did like kids, kind of a Michael Jackson persona) he also liked to use
torture to make you mind like burning your fingers with fire. He died from
suicide in his 40's. I have gotten over it and gone on. I look back on it
that he was mentally ill and he committed suicide out of guilt.
Chocolic
Child
"Chocolic" <chatt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ed9Ib.560691
> It sounds as if you really did have a torturous childhood. I wonder if
> your father did. Is he still alive? If so, I hope he is locked up
I just hope he's dead.
>Do
> you have other sibs that suffered as you did? My father was a pedophile,
> and tho I have a few good memories of him (weird isn't it, but he really
> did like kids, kind of a Michael Jackson persona) he also liked to use
> torture to make you mind like burning your fingers with fire. He died
from
> suicide in his 40's. I have gotten over it and gone on. I look back on
it
> that he was mentally ill and he committed suicide out of guilt.
That sounds like its exactly what happened. He knew he was a sick fucker.
tinydancer
"Bo Raxo" <invasio...@thepentagon.removethis.com> wrote in message
news:8F8Ib.11479$lo3....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
I can only speak for myself, but I don't like anything of a bondage nature.
It upsets me to even watch the sport of wresting. And I don't mean just
upsets me, it makes me panic, feel horrible, anxious. I can't stand being
restrained in any way. Can't even sleep in a sleeping bag with the side
zippered. And I can't stand watching anything that even hints of force, nor
even read about it without becoming very upset. But as I said, that's just
my reaction to it. I"m sure there are those that are just the opposite.
Any kind of violence scares me, if I happen to see a street fight I get
scared, even simply as an observer. If I'm around an angry man I've been
known to just sink to the floor with my arms up over my head for protection.
td
>
>
>
>
>
Chocolic
"Child" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote in message
news:vv28il4...@corp.supernews.com...
But at least he had the decency to realize that and end it saving someone
else the trouble.
Chocolic
vivisectrix
>It sounds as if you really did have a torturous childhood. I wonder if
>your father did.
He says not.
>Is he still alive?
Yes.
>If so, I hope he is locked up.
Nope. Although he does have a bit of a record.
>Do you have other sibs that suffered as you did?
Yes. One is dead... suicide at 44. One is an arrogant prick who has used
his sociopathism to become a millionaire, but in general, hasn't really
committed any harm and fits into the glove of the American Dream quite
well. One admits to being a pedophile, but so far as anyone knows, has
never acted on that. One is a sweet woman who became a nurse, can't
maintain a normal relationship, practices her religion religously, and is
raising a couple of pretty wonderful kids. And then there's me, and on the
skin of me, I seem pretty okay and in general I'm fairly happy. I won't go
into the details of my surface life except to say I appear to be pretty
middle-of-the-road, middle-class american, although I'm crappy at managing
money.
>My father was a pedophile, and tho I have a few good memories of him
>(weird isn't it, but he really did like kids, kind of a Michael Jackson
>persona)
My father likes kids and women and animals too, but that has never stopped
him from using them to fulfill his sexual and sadistic needs.
>he also liked to use torture to make you mind like burning your fingers
>with fire.
Yeah, mine did things like that too. But he was also often quite honest
about his sadistic actions. It was fun for him.
>He died from suicide in his 40's. I have gotten over it and gone on. I
>look back on it that he was mentally ill and he committed suicide out of
>guilt.
I only have one good memory of my father and it happened when I was under
five years old. I do retain a certain fondness for him, which comes and
goes, but never negates the fact in my mind that he's a scumbag. I worked
out my "issues" with him a couple of years ago when my brother killed
himself. We rarely speak now, but when we do, we're very much surface
polite. He seems to have given up most of his activities. It's easier to
get caught now than it was when we were kids. If he's still active, I
suspect I'll read about him here eventually. Whenever I see a news article
here about a violent crime in his State, I half expect to see his name.
tinydancer
My grandfather blew his brains out, but it wasn't done from guilt, it was
done to cause pain to others, out of meanness. He made sure of that. I
also have a number of cousins who also committed suicide. Their's was done
out of pain, they had been depressed their whole short lives, even I, as a
kid, could see that. I know my own father feels not one bit of guilt and
neither does the mother. They are angry at me for getting into therapy, but
not guilty.
td
>
>
Child
> five years old. I do retain a certain fondness for him, which comes and
> goes, but never negates the fact in my mind that he's a scumbag. I worked
> out my "issues" with him a couple of years ago when my brother killed
> himself. We rarely speak now, but when we do, we're very much surface
> polite. He seems to have given up most of his activities. It's easier to
> get caught now than it was when we were kids. If he's still active, I
> suspect I'll read about him here eventually. Whenever I see a news article
> here about a violent crime in his State, I half expect to see his name.
FWIW, I hate your fathers guts.
Chocolic
That's what my dad did, he blew his brains out while we were upstairs
sleeping. All I remember is waking up with all the commotion, the
neighbors, the cops, the morgue-mobile. I remember while laying in bed
hearing all this (I was 5) racket going on out in the other room, somebody
mentioning the kids and everybody ran into the bedroom to check on us
because the bullet holes went thru the floor from the basement. I never
had therapy. I just dealt with it. A couple other sibs have tho. One
has a couple attempted suicides. She's okay now.
Chocolic
tinydancer
Glad to hear she's okay now. I've had a couple myself, overdoses with pills
and alcohol. And did a lot of cutting for some years, but not for suicide,
just to somehow release some of the pain. But I've never wanted to injure
anyone else, just myself. All my pain and anger has been turned inward.
Was your suicidal sister older than you? I just wondered if being subjected
to his cruelties for a longer period of time might've effected her more
deeply. My father beat me till the day I got married, so I had it for all
18 years. Although the sexual abuse stopped once I got a bit older, he
seemed to like only 'little girls', not developed ones.
td
>
>
Hester888Mofet
Vivisectrix,
i don't think your outlook is as rare as you think, Vivi. I have known a couple
of people in the BDSM community who do have incredibly sadistic fantasies,
inlcuding death. I also know others who deny that their fantasies go that far,
but know that in the community that kind of stuff is "frowned upon" so they
might just hold back on what they are really thinking about.
There are those for whom the mental torture of others is exquisite. These are
the chaos causers in the community and every group has at least one. I swear
they get off on back stabbing and other social ills. These people are far more
dangerous than those with the whips and chains. If I said I found them rude, I
am sure you would understand my disgust.
I do have a question, though. In your relationships, do you find it hard at all
to keep yourself from killing your partner? I have seen tops get overwhelmed
and go too far for their bottoms and I wondered if you've ever had to end a
scene because you thought you might actually harm someone beyond your original
intent. Also, in knowing that you could kill someone you have tied up before
you, do you get that incredible rush from releasing them unharmed (relatively)
knowing you could have killed them at any moment?
My husband is a sadist. I am a bottom and a bit of a masochist, but I'm sure he
would prefer it were I not a masochist at all.
I'm glad you've come to accept yourself for who you are, Vivi. We spend far too
much time analyzing our motivations and far less time enjoying the results.
Hester Mofet
vivisectrix
>I have known a couple of people in the BDSM community who do have
>incredibly sadistic fantasies, including death. I also know others who
>deny that their fantasies go that far, but know that in the community
>that kind of stuff is "frowned upon" so they might just hold back on what
>they are really thinking about.
My closest Dom/Sadist friend is a very famous person in the worldwide BDSM
subcommunity, and his fantasies, while similar to mine, don't include
murder. But we have a lot in common, and sometimes we fantasize about
hitting the road and kidnapping likely victims, where he gets to play with
them to his heart's content and I get to take them when he's bored with
them and do my thing. The idea of getting a victim already warmed up and
at least partially broken appeals to me. And my fascination with torturing
someone to death appeals to him (although he wouldn't want to watch an
actual murder... would probably be repulsed by it, in fact), since a
corpse can't point at a perp and say, "Him (Her). He (She) did it." Fun
fantasies. :)
>There are those for whom the mental torture of others is exquisite. These
>are the chaos causers in the community and every group has at least one.
>I swear they get off on back stabbing and other social ills.
Sadistic mindfucking is appealing to me, but for some reason, I've never
had much interest in doing it in a group. Somehow, mindfucking a group
feels more cowardly to me than getting into the head of a single person
and wrecking them psychologically. That sense of self-righteousness is
probably bullshit though. The things I would most like to do don't have a
lot to do with being brave.
>If I said I found them rude, I am sure you would understand my disgust.
Absolutely.
>In your relationships, do you find it hard at all to keep yourself from
>killing your partner? I have seen tops get overwhelmed and go too far for
>their bottoms and I wondered if you've ever had to end a scene because
>you thought you might actually harm someone beyond your original intent.
I've had to end one scene early for exactly that reason, but only one. I
rarely get to play with people who fit my victim profile, and the murder
fantasy doesn't work as well with people who don't physically fit that
description. The few times I've played with people who did fit my victim
profile, it's been public play, and my fantasies don't involve other
people beyond myself and the victim.
>Also, in knowing that you could kill someone you have tied up before you,
>do you get that incredible rush from releasing them unharmed (relatively)
>knowing you could have killed them at any moment?
No. I always feel sad when I could have killed someone and didn't.
>I'm sure he would prefer it were I not a masochist at all.
My favorite bottom (and one of my best friends in the world) isn't
masochistic at all. She has a need to be hurt, but she hates it when it's
happening and gets no sexual or physical gratification from it during the
actual scene. And although she's quite beautiful, she doesn't fit my
victim profile. But she is absolutely my favorite person on the planet to
play with, simply because she's so terrified and miserable during a scene.
George Orwell
maryA...@webtv.net (mary Adrian) wrote:
>
> Cary Stayner wasn't and isn't mentally ill. He slaughtered 4 innocent
> women. In my opinion he should have been taken out behind the
> courthouse on the day he was found guilty and hung from the nearest
> tree.
I read reports that Stayner's family tree is plentiful with ripe fruit of
mental illness.
I'd like to read his confession to learn more about his fantasies. One of
these daydreams was when he was six years old and he dreamt of his mother
and grocery clerks being murdered as his mother went into a store.
That hardly sounds normal to me.
What kind of mental illness is in Stayner's family? I don't know. The gatekeepers
haven't said.
When are these gatekeepers going to be disenfranchised? I don't want their
service; why is it being forced upon me? How are gatekeepers of information,
and freedom related?
I had hoped the Internet would put the gatekeepers out of business but that
has not happened.
George Orwell
"Patty" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> JC wrote Smoking Gun last year and asked if they would print it but
> they said no since there wasn't much interest in the case anymore.
That's bullshit. Just look at this thread or at the True Crime shelf
at the book store.
The Smoking Gun is censoring itself so they can win the approval of
the "mainstream" and get the dollars.
George Orwell
"Patty" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> JC wrote Smoking Gun last year and asked if they would print it but
> they said no since there wasn't much interest in the case anymore.
It occurred to me after my post that www.rotten.com would be a better
site to send such a request to.
Rotten will never get the approval of the "mainstream" and neither will
www.ogrish.com, another place to put in such a request.
George Orwell
"Child" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote:
>
>
> "George Orwell" <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
>
> > field -as far as we are told- is that sexual predators and people who have such
> > fantasies are incurable.
>
>
> rewire someones' sexuality. You can perhaps teach them not to act on it,
> but you cannot make someone who is turned on by raping little boys suddenly
> turned on by mushy romantic sex with adult women.
I don't know why you're talking about child molesters when I said "sexual predators".
This thread is about Carey Stayner, and his victims can't really be considered
children. He also had a an adult girlfriend.
That's another point about child molesters though, from newspaper accounts I've
read they frequently seek out women with kids and molest the kids. Surely they
are having sex with mom as well.
This is like suspecting single men of being homosexual. Probably half the
practicing homosexuals are married.
There are homosexuals who claim to have gone straight, and straights who
have gone homo after marriage.
People commit crimes of rage, surely you understand that for every crime
of rage committed hundreds of people had similar thoughts but did not act
on them.
George Orwell
momofpe...@netscape.net (scooter34) wrote:
>
> George Orwell <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message news:<203766d848c5c895...@mixmaster.it>...
>
> >
> > Bundy claimed to have been plagued by fantasies that he finally felt compelled
> > to act on.
> >
> > field -as far as we are told- is that sexual predators and people who have such
> > fantasies are incurable.
> >
>
> no way related to the fantasies you later refer to as "adulturous".
> The fantasies are based in domination, cruelty, and possession. This
> is not a matter of coveting your neighbor's wife - it's a matter of
> seeing her look at you in terror, cower on the floor at your feet, or
> scream as you torture them.
Perhaps they could examine the pleasure they derive from such acts and
in doing so develop inhibitions about not only committing such acts but
in even having the fantasies?
That would be a years long process, but it may well work for a lot of
people so afflicted.
> Where Bundy lied is in his assertion that porn drove him to kill.
> Believe him when he said he could no longer resist the lure of his
> dark fantasies.
Oh I know Bundy was lying about the porn and I understand why. I wish
more attention had been paid to what drove his rage. Getting that
information would have taken work, but I think it could have happened
if he had been treated like the Dr. Lecterish character he was rather
than being fried like a piece of meat.
Unfortunately he is long gone, and what drove him to do what he did
will never be known.
I wonder if anyone has ever attempted to get at John Norman Collins,
a Harvard educated serial killer with an IQ higher than Harvard trained
Ted Kaczynski?
I'm almost obsessed by John Norman Collin's anonymity.
Lucy A. Afar
Hi, Vivi, I'm very glad to see you posting again!
Well, I really don't believe that there is such a thing as "evil"; and
I do believe that what we choose to do is what matters, from the
society's point of view, not what fantasies we have.
> By
> society's standards, I won't argue that I live a "good" life. But what I'm
> saying here, what I'm repeating about my inner self, is exactly as real
> and true as my surface life. This *is* who I am.
IMO, feeling the way you do and yet choosing to refrain from acting
upon your fantasies makes you a much better person than the rest of
us, who don't have to fight such a temptation in order to stay
law-abiding.
> So far, I've never had to act on my ultimate fantasies. But I want to make
> it very clear that it makes me really sad that I probably never will "get
> to" (or allow myself to) do that. It feels the way I imagine someone feels
> when one priority (say the death of a parent and the needs of one's
> family) has overruled a dream (say forcing a young adult to take over the
> family farm, rather than attend University to become a physician). I have
> a priority, and it's important to me, so it outweighs my sexual desires
> and dreams, but that makes me sad.
>
> The way that I've taken care of my "needs" is by playing S&M "games" with
> willing partners. I've been doing that for on some level for at least 30
> years, although I didn't get the education I needed to do it under "safe
> and sane" guidelines within the BDSM subcommunity until the last 15 years
> or so. And in my childhood I was horribly abusive and sadistic with my
> siblings and playmates.
Having been yourself horribly abused, this is hardly surprising, IMO.
But I suppose that a stronger predisposition for violent behavior
could exist in a child, even in the absence of abuse. It's our hunter
genes, I'd like to believe - or something having to do with the
self-preservation instinct: one has to be able to act violently,
sometimes, in order to simply stay alive; in the course of evolution,
perhaps those who found inflicting violence on others pleasurable had
a better chance to survive. Or perhaps it's just some strange
peculiarity of our killer-ape brains.
> The priority that has overwhelmed my life for the
> last 25 years is almost finished. I'll be "free" in a few years. I still
> don't know if I'll go for my fantasies at that time or not. I kind of
> doubt it. I wouldn't say I have a conscience... I'm not even sure what
> that is.
I'd rather say it's a matter of empathy. Perhaps, again, the
predator-prey relationship: if you can "see" yourself in your victim's
place, consider the humanity of that person, you couldn't possibly go
on and treat him/her as if it were an object you could dismantle or
destroy to tiny pieces; to do so would be, in your words, "rude".
> I do have a belief system that clearly outlines polite and rude
> activities, and it would be rude to kill people for fun. But there are
> other behaviors that I consider rude, and I've chosen to do some of them
> in the past, without feeling anything that I could call "guilt".
But then, perhaps, it is a matter of degree? I suppose that ANY kind
of rudeness is hurtful, but the damage is definitely different when
you say something insulting, for instance - though sometimes this can
also be deadly, for certain people, in certain circumstances.
> I may
> choose to fulfill my fantasies someday. As I said... the Jury is still
> out.
>
> But not today.
>
> Does that make me incurable? Guess we'll find out when I die... unless I
> go for it and get caught before that.
>
> Vivi
Though I don't know you in Real Life, my bet (based on the way you
reveal yourself in your posts here) is that you'd never kill just for
fun. But you might, at some point, choose to become a judge and give a
death sentence or two, I guess. :-)
I wish you with all my heart a very, very good and peaceful New Year,
Vivi!
Take care of yourself, girl.
Lucy
nan
Vivi wrote:
"And in my childhood I was horribly abusive and sadistic with my
siblings and playmates.
Unless I missed it, Vivi has NOT said, as you suggested, she had been
"horribly abused."
If I missed that part, I'd appreciate knowing.
Happy New Year, from Nan
Child
"nan" <nanl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8f49fa86.03123...@posting.google.com...
> lucy...@claque.net (Lucy A. Afar) wrote in message
news:<ed128780.03123...@posting.google.com>...
> > vivis...@yahoo.com (vivisectrix) wrote in message
news:<3ff0e8e0...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...
> Hello, Lucy,
>
> Vivi wrote:
>
> "And in my childhood I was horribly abusive and sadistic with my
> siblings and playmates.
>
> Unless I missed it, Vivi has NOT said, as you suggested, she had been
> "horribly abused."
>
> If I missed that part, I'd appreciate knowing.
you missed it. Vivi was physically and sexually abused by her shit of a
father.
vivisectrix
>>I have a priority, and it's important to me, so it outweighs my sexual
>>desires and dreams, but that makes me sad.
>Virtual reality might help you someday. You think?
I can't imagine VR ever being real enough to give me what I want. We'll
have to wait and see.
>>The priority that has overwhelmed my life for the last 25 years is
>>almost finished. I'll be "free" in a few years. I still don't know if
>>I'll go for my fantasies at that time or not.
>I suspect a new "priority" will emerge. Its in your nature.
Hopefully it won't take as much energy as this one has. I'm soooo ready to
retire.
vivisectrix
>A 15-25 year time frame, in my highly unqualified opinion, is a likely
>period to develop immersive displays and sensory feedback technology and
>get it in an affordable consumer package format.
Doubt if it would really give me what I want, but I'm willin' to wait and
see, assuming I don't blow off my middle-class life and do the real thang
between now and then.
>So within your lifetime, you may be able to kill, say, Johnny Depp, for
>$19.95 pay-per-view.
Do I even want to know who or what Johnny Depp is?
vivisectrix
>>In fact, someone who suffered abuse as a child is more likely to feel
>>conflicted about such urges, and thus not be able to enjoy them as a
>>form of sexual play: it stirs up feelings that dampen the feedback
>>loop neccesary for a fetish to work.
>Now THAT sounds like Vivi.
Hmph. Does not. I'm not conflicted at all.
vivisectrix
Speaking of my sperm donor...
>>If he's still active, I suspect I'll read about him here eventually.
>>Whenever I see a news article here about a violent crime in his State,
>>I half expect to see his name.
>FWIW, I hate your fathers guts.
I appreciate that. Now would you mind hating my first ex-husband for me
too?
vivisectrix
>Thanks for sharing that. Good to hear from you, it's been a while and I'd
>wondered if you where still around.
I'm always around. Sometimes I just don't have a lot to say.
vivisectrix
>Hi, Vivi, I'm very glad to see you posting again!
Thanks. I'm always here, even if I'm not posting.
>>I wouldn't say I have a conscience... I'm not even sure what that is.
>I'd rather say it's a matter of empathy. Perhaps, again, the predator-
>prey relationship: if you can "see" yourself in your victim's place,
>consider the humanity of that person, you couldn't possibly go on and
>treat him/her as if it were an object you could dismantle or destroy to
>tiny pieces; to do so would be, in your words, "rude".
Well, I know I have empathy. But that has never stopped me from hurting
someone if I chose to. When I read that Bundy claimed he didn't want to
"know" his victims, because that ruined the fun for him, I thought he was
probably lying. Now I think it might be an essential difference between
us. If I ever chose to follow through on my fantasies, I would want to
keep my victim around long enough to know them very well. And I don't
doubt that I'd be able to empathize with them. But that would make it more
fun for me, not less.
I'd like to add that it seems much more cowardly to me to refuse to feel
empathy for someone you are using for your own pleasure. When I finally
clued that some of the serial killers out there really do have no empathy
for their victims, I was quite disappointed in them.
Killing people for fun is rude no matter what. The question for me has
never been whether or not it would be rude, but rather, whether or not the
fun made it worth the cost of being that rude. I still haven't decided.
>But then, perhaps, it is a matter of degree? I suppose that ANY kind
>of rudeness is hurtful, but the damage is definitely different when
>you say something insulting, for instance - though sometimes this can
>also be deadly, for certain people, in certain circumstances.
Rudeness is rude no matter the lesser or greater "crime" in society's
eyes. What holds me back is the knowledge that my life as I know it (and
it's a good life, and I do enjoy it) would be irrevocably changed if I
chose to act on this particular rude behavior.
>Though I don't know you in Real Life, my bet (based on the way you
>reveal yourself in your posts here) is that you'd never kill just for
>fun. But you might, at some point, choose to become a judge and give a
>death sentence or two, I guess. :-)
Actually, I think about that sometimes, not because it's less evil, but
because when I got caught (and I'm sure I would eventually) if my victims
were "bad enough" in society's eyes, I'd have a better chance of getting a
livable sentence. I don't live in a death-penalty State right now, but I
probably will in the not-too-distant future. I could make a good life in
prison, I'm sure. Being killed before I'm done living has no appeal for me
at all.
>I wish you with all my heart a very, very good and peaceful New Year,
>Take care of yourself, girl.
You too.
vivisectrix
>>Unless I missed it, Vivi has NOT said, as you suggested, she had been
>>"horribly abused."
>>If I missed that part, I'd appreciate knowing.
>you missed it. Vivi was physically and sexually abused by her shit of a
>father.
FYI, I didn't mention it in the post you're referring to. However, I've
mentioned it in previous posts on other topics, and I did say I'd been
sexually and physically abused in my childhood in another post in this
thread. However, I've never claimed that the abuse I suffered has anything
to do with my fantasies or predilictions. I don't know whether there is a
connection between the two, and frankly, I don't care if there is or not.
Anything I do today is by my own choice as a thinking adult. It would feel
cowardly to me to try to blame my adult activities on the child I was, or
on the idiots who raised me.
However... if I were ever facing a death penalty, I wouldn't try to stop
my attorneys from using whatever they could to keep me alive, including
blaming the way my mind works on my parents. I'm not ashamed to be a
coward if it will get me what I want or need, and I have no desire to die
before I'm done living.
Child
> Beth:
>
> >>In fact, someone who suffered abuse as a child is more likely to feel
> >>conflicted about such urges, and thus not be able to enjoy them as a
> >>form of sexual play: it stirs up feelings that dampen the feedback
> >>loop neccesary for a fetish to work.
>
> >Now THAT sounds like Vivi.
>
> Hmph. Does not. I'm not conflicted at all.
>
Yeh, sure!
Child
> Beth:
>
> Speaking of my sperm donor...
>
> >>If he's still active, I suspect I'll read about him here eventually.
> >>Whenever I see a news article here about a violent crime in his State,
> >>I half expect to see his name.
>
> >FWIW, I hate your fathers guts.
>
> I appreciate that. Now would you mind hating my first ex-husband for me
> too?
Sure, if he was a fuckwad.
vivisectrix
>>>I hate your fathers guts.
>>would you mind hating my first ex-husband for me too?
>Sure, if he was a fuckwad.
Without question. So I appreciate it. The more people who hate him, the
tougher his karma will likely be. :)
Nitamargarita
> Nitamargarita:
>
> >Thanks for sharing that. Good to hear from you, it's been a while and I'd
> >wondered if you where still around.
>
> I'm always around. Sometimes I just don't have a lot to say.
>
> Vivi
I can understand that. I haven't been around for a while myself, my
computer blew up (literally) so I decided to do some other things I've been
needing to get done before I fixed it. I joined a gym and got some little
muscles, so now I'm all tough and gritty :)
Nita
s, you might find me on irc.bondage.com
> in channel #torture.
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003
tinydancer
"Nitamargarita" <aadd...@blahblahcox.net> wrote in message
news:1dsIb.13723$WQ3.13309@lakeread05...
>
> "vivisectrix" <vivis...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3ff22f1c....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> > Nitamargarita:
> >
> > >Thanks for sharing that. Good to hear from you, it's been a while and
I'd
> > >wondered if you where still around.
> >
> > I'm always around. Sometimes I just don't have a lot to say.
> >
> > Vivi
>
>
> I can understand that. I haven't been around for a while myself, my
> computer blew up (literally) so I decided to do some other things I've
been
> needing to get done before I fixed it. I joined a gym and got some little
> muscles, so now I'm all tough and gritty :)
>
>
> Nita
Are you into weightlifting? I find that so relaxing myself.
td
Nitamargarita
>
> "Nitamargarita" <aadd...@blahblahcox.net> wrote in message
> news:1dsIb.13723$WQ3.13309@lakeread05...
> >
> > "vivisectrix" <vivis...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:3ff22f1c....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> > > Nitamargarita:
> > >
> > > >Thanks for sharing that. Good to hear from you, it's been a while and
> I'd
> > > >wondered if you where still around.
> > >
> > > I'm always around. Sometimes I just don't have a lot to say.
> > >
> > > Vivi
> >
> >
> > I can understand that. I haven't been around for a while myself, my
> > computer blew up (literally) so I decided to do some other things I've
> been
> > needing to get done before I fixed it. I joined a gym and got some
little
> > muscles, so now I'm all tough and gritty :)
> >
> >
> > Nita
>
>
> Are you into weightlifting? I find that so relaxing myself.
>
> td
>
>
Yes, my youngest started school this year and suddenly I found myself with
all this free time. I originally started with cardio, but quickly got into
weight lifting when I hired a trainer. My trainer is 64, she looks about
40, and you could bounce a quarter off her ass and have it come back fifty
cents. I figured I wanted to do whatever she was doing:)
Now that I've started, I can't imagine not being able to.
Nita
tinydancer
That's how I felt when I first joined a spa. Weightlifting is really
addictive. My favorite is the butterfly's, they make my back feel so good.
I also liked that roman chair thingie too. What's your favorite?
My kids were all in school too when I began. In the summer we had a
mother/daughter day. Well, the girls were all set to really show me up.
I'd usually go at opening time, 9:00 a.m. and work out till noon. The 9:00
a.m. aerobics class was the most strenuous, a warm up and cool down, with a
full 45 minutes of aerobics in between. Well I want to tell ya, the girls
pooped out after a short time and were truly IMPRESSED with their mom, who
finished the whole class no problem. ;) Then the instructer came by to
tell 'em what wimps they were, that there mom was there every morning
waiting for the door to be unlocked, and never skipped a class. I was so
proud, and let me tell ya, they were speechless.
After the aerobics came the fun stuff, that's when I got to work out on the
weight machines, get the hard stuff over with first and then treat myself.
;)
td
Nitamargarita
"tinydancer" <tinyd...@nospam.com> wrote
> > Yes, my youngest started school this year and suddenly I found myself
with
> > all this free time. I originally started with cardio, but quickly got
> into
> > weight lifting when I hired a trainer. My trainer is 64, she looks
about
> > 40, and you could bounce a quarter off her ass and have it come back
fifty
> > cents. I figured I wanted to do whatever she was doing:)
> >
> > Now that I've started, I can't imagine not being able to.
> >
> >
> > Nita
>
>
> That's how I felt when I first joined a spa. Weightlifting is really
> addictive. My favorite is the butterfly's, they make my back feel so
good.
> I also liked that roman chair thingie too. What's your favorite?
>
My favorite is anything triceps. I don't know why, but I just love the
feeling I get from really working them. When my trainer first showed me the
roman chair, I laughed in her face. She told me to just get my butt on
there and try. I have really surprised myself with my own mental strength.
I never knew I could push myself so far. I've even had the big ole musclemen
compliment me on my mental toughness.
> My kids were all in school too when I began. In the summer we had a
> mother/daughter day. Well, the girls were all set to really show me up.
> I'd usually go at opening time, 9:00 a.m. and work out till noon. The
9:00
> a.m. aerobics class was the most strenuous, a warm up and cool down, with
a
> full 45 minutes of aerobics in between. Well I want to tell ya, the girls
> pooped out after a short time and were truly IMPRESSED with their mom, who
> finished the whole class no problem. ;) Then the instructer came by to
> tell 'em what wimps they were, that there mom was there every morning
> waiting for the door to be unlocked, and never skipped a class. I was so
> proud, and let me tell ya, they were speechless.
>
> After the aerobics came the fun stuff, that's when I got to work out on
the
> weight machines, get the hard stuff over with first and then treat myself.
> ;)
>
> td
> >
As a rule, I hate aerobics, mostly because of the music they use during the
workouts, so I crank up the mp3 player and hit the elliptical trainer for
about an hour. I need music with cuss words to get me through :)
Nita
Nitamargarita
I also wanted to say that I've seen your pic on agc, and you're tiny like
me, so I guess we're two tiny tough mothers
lol
tinydancer
Oh, too bad. When I went the 9:00 girl had the best music, lots of Stevie
Nicks, Jimmy Buffets 'Fins', 'She Works Hard For Her Money', stuff I could
really get into, sing along, and work out. That was what got me hooked to
begin with, I loved the music, so I'd push myself a little harder each day.
Wanting to get a bit further in the class. I think it took me about two
weeks, in the beginning, to get through a whole class, and collapse on the
floor in exhaustion. After awhile, one day, I noticed I wasn't exhausted
after the class anymore, I was energized. I knew I'd passed the hump then.
I even went when I had pneumonia that first winter, I just couldn't not go.
I was that hooked. I remember my doctor telling me 'tiny, ya gotta quit
goin to the spa if ya wanna get over this walking pneumonia'. I finally
agreed to stop doing the class, but I had to at least do a partial weight
routine.
Are you into the 'spa outfits'?? I absolutely loved my spa clothes. ;)
Got all kinds of matching outfits, leotards, tights, leg warmers, spa
shorts. Let me tell ya, I turned heads with my outfits. <g>
td
Nitamargarita
YES! All those cute little matching outfits motivate me even more. My
husband laughed at me one day telling me I looked like a brunette Elle Woods
with my pink from head to toe. Of course, I buy a new outfit just to go to
my annual gyn appt.:)
Have you ever done Pilates? I just added that, and I love it.
Nita
tinydancer
Agc? I don't know what that is? Maybe it's another tinydancer? or maybe
it is me? I don't know? I'm about 5'5" and properly proportioned. ;) A
little busty perhaps. <g>
td
Nitamargarita
alt.gossip.celebrities
They have a page with pics of some of their posters. It's a pic of a small,
thin, brown-haired woman sitting on a couch.
I'm feeling you on the busty part, I saw a post you made a while back where
you where complaining about the lack of 34DD bras. I almost posted back,
because I wear the same size and I've never understood with all the fake
boobs floating around out there how more women don't need that size.
Nita
tinydancer
Oh me too! I had a hot pink leotard I wore with white tights and hot pink
leg warmers, but my favorite outfit was a silvery grey and black metallic
leotard, with grey workout shorts, you know, those little tiny ones, and a
little grey half shirt, grey tights and black/white/ and grey striped leg
warmers. I had a purple outfit that was kind of snazzy too, with purple leg
warmers. I was really into the leg warmers. ;) It's so much fun to get
all decked out in just 'fun clothes'. I'll bet you're havin a ball while
the kiddies are in school! That was the first time I had something all of
my own, purely for fun and I made the most of it.
Of course, I buy a new outfit just to go to
> my annual gyn appt.:)
Geez, I just do new undies! ;))
>
> Have you ever done Pilates? I just added that, and I love it.
I haven't done Pilates per se, but I have a similar machine here at home,
it's kind of a cross between the Total Gym and Pilates. I haven't tried any
of the Pilates stuff on it though, but I know there are instructions in it
for doing some of the exercises. I've got one of those big weight machines
too, with the butterfly on it and a bench press, leg stuff and those pull
down thingies with the bar. Are tricepts the arms? I never had a trainer,
just did stuff on my own, so most of the things I'm not sure of the name of.
But I loved the arm stuff too. I loved seeing my muscles grow. For a long
time, everybody I saw had to 'feel my muscles', I'd flex my arms at 'em. ;)
td
katy...@sbcglobal.net
Nita
Oh my gawd you two are making me sick...get a room why doncha. Actually
I'm jealous, you guys have the time to treat your workout time like the
luxury it is. Me I have to breeze in for an hour or so and not get to
really enjoy the workout like I should. I have to schedule it around work,
hungry kid, homework, household chores, etc. It in itself then becomes a
chore. The one that is given up the most to accommodate the rest of life as
a single mom.
Katie
Nitamargarita
Your outfits sound cute. I don't have any leg warmers, but I remember my
rainbow striped ones from when I was younger, hot stuff:) I cried like a
baby when I had to leave my son at school, having something just for me and
going somewhere that people actually call me by my name is really cool. It
didn't take long for me to figure out that there are tons of things I can do
instead of feeling sorry for myself and sitting home waiting for the bus to
come.
urse, I buy a new outfit just to go to
> > my annual gyn appt.:)
>
> Geez, I just do new undies! ;))
>
>
> >
You'd have to see my beautiful doctor. He is H-O-T HOT! My husband liked
to pick on me, but once I found a lump in my breast and I wanted him with me
at the appt. When he saw my doc, he shut up. lol
Nita
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/12/2003
tinydancer
> > Agc? I don't know what that is? Maybe it's another tinydancer? or
maybe
> > it is me? I don't know? I'm about 5'5" and properly proportioned. ;)
A
> > little busty perhaps. <g>
> >
> > td
> >
> >
>
> alt.gossip.celebrities
> They have a page with pics of some of their posters. It's a pic of a
small,
> thin, brown-haired woman sitting on a couch.
Oh no, that's a different tiny dancer. That's happened to me before here
though. I do have long brown hair, but it's not straight, unless I work at
straightening it out, most of the time it's kind of curly/messy looking, in
a nice way though. ;)
>
>
> I'm feeling you on the busty part, I saw a post you made a while back
where
> you where complaining about the lack of 34DD bras. I almost posted back,
> because I wear the same size and I've never understood with all the fake
> boobs floating around out there how more women don't need that size.
I know, I just can't figure it out either? Don't you have a hell of a time
finding a bra? I do. It's gotten so I'll almost take anything in that
size. I used to wear a 32 DD, and they were a real bitch to find. I
remember Bali used to make one I liked, and then the next time I went on
'the great bra hunt' the sales woman told me Bali and Vanity Fair were
discontinuing my size! I said "how can they discontinue my size, what am I
going to wear?" As you said, with all the implants around, one would think
we could find a bra to fit. although I think most of the younger girls are
a bit bigger around now days. I know my daughters wear a 36 around. In
fact my youngest daughter tried to wear my wedding dress when she got
married, but she couldn't zip it up because the bust section was too tight.
td
Nitamargarita
<katy...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3DtIb.3654$gX5...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
I'm sorry Katie, if it makes you feel any better, my husband works out of
town, so come summer I won't be alone for over 2 months:) I know what it's
like to be the only parent available to a child, and it's TOUGH. I couldn't
imagine what it would be like to have to deal with the financial
implications to go with it.
Nita<
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/12/2003
Nitamargarita
>
> "Nitamargarita" <aadd...@blahblahcox.net> wrote in message
> news:MvtIb.13743$WQ3.7248@lakeread05...
> > > Agc? I don't know what that is? Maybe it's another tinydancer? or
> maybe
> > > it is me? I don't know? I'm about 5'5" and properly proportioned.
;)
> A
> > > little busty perhaps. <g>
> > >
> > > td
> > >
> > >
> >
> > alt.gossip.celebrities
> > They have a page with pics of some of their posters. It's a pic of a
> small,
> > thin, brown-haired woman sitting on a couch.
>
>
> Oh no, that's a different tiny dancer. That's happened to me before here
> though. I do have long brown hair, but it's not straight, unless I work
at
> straightening it out, most of the time it's kind of curly/messy looking,
in
> a nice way though. ;)
>
>
Oh man, all this time I've been picturing you like that when I read all your
posts! What am I gonna do now?
> >
> >
> > I'm feeling you on the busty part, I saw a post you made a while back
> where
> > you where complaining about the lack of 34DD bras. I almost posted
back,
> > because I wear the same size and I've never understood with all the fake
> > boobs floating around out there how more women don't need that size.
>
>
> I know, I just can't figure it out either? Don't you have a hell of a
time
> finding a bra? I do. It's gotten so I'll almost take anything in that
> size. I used to wear a 32 DD, and they were a real bitch to find. I
> remember Bali used to make one I liked, and then the next time I went on
> 'the great bra hunt' the sales woman told me Bali and Vanity Fair were
> discontinuing my size! I said "how can they discontinue my size, what am
I
> going to wear?" As you said, with all the implants around, one would
think
> we could find a bra to fit. although I think most of the younger girls
are
> a bit bigger around now days. I know my daughters wear a 36 around. In
> fact my youngest daughter tried to wear my wedding dress when she got
> married, but she couldn't zip it up because the bust section was too
tight.
>
> td
> >
> >
I shop at Stage for my bras. They only have one style, but it's a good one.
I just buy 2 or 3 of the same one. Recently, I found a specialty store in
Baton Rouge for cancer survivors. They mostly sell, specialty bras for
women who've lost one or both of their breasts, but they also have every
size bra in the world. The problem is that they are super expensive.
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/12/2003
tinydancer
>
snipped>
>
> Your outfits sound cute. I don't have any leg warmers, but I remember my
> rainbow striped ones from when I was younger, hot stuff:) I cried like a
> baby when I had to leave my son at school,
Oh I did the same thing when my youngest started going all day, came home
before 9:00 a.m., sat down at the kitchen table, looked at the clock, and
burst out crying. I was a mess, so lonesome. :(
having something just for me and
> going somewhere that people actually call me by my name is really cool.
I remember meeting somebody for the first time when I was all on my own,
introducing myself, and stopping cause I didn't know what to say. I usually
introduced myself as 'so and so's wife' or so and so's mom, and suddenly I
wasn't connected to anybody. I was all on my own. It caught me so
off-guard, not to be described as 'attached' to somebody in a situation.
It
> didn't take long for me to figure out that there are tons of things I can
do
> instead of feeling sorry for myself and sitting home waiting for the bus
to
> come.
That's right. Now is the time for you again. All that time you spend
looking after everyone else's needs, sometimes you lose track of your own
for awhile. Glad to hear you found something you really enjoy doing, can
dress up snazzy and just have fun. I met lots of nice women when I was
going everyday. And I took advantage of the steam room, sauna, whirlpool,
just pampered myself.
>
>
>
> urse, I buy a new outfit just to go to
> > > my annual gyn appt.:)
> >
> > Geez, I just do new undies! ;))
> >
> >
> > >
>
> You'd have to see my beautiful doctor. He is H-O-T HOT! My husband
liked
> to pick on me, but once I found a lump in my breast and I wanted him with
me
> at the appt. When he saw my doc, he shut up. lol
I've got a cutie for a gyn too, makes it all much more bearable, 'eh? ;)
And he's very sweet too, operated on me and took such good care of me. I
didn't mind a bit. It must be strange for the hubbies though. ;) Poor
dears. When I went back in for my six week check up afterwards I gave him a
big hug, but hubby didn't mind either. He was glad I had somebody I liked
so much and felt comfortable with. Your hubby sounds like a nice guy. :)
td
tinydancer
I'm sorry, I know how you feel. That was why I eventually quit going. I
started working, just part time at first. And I could still sneak in the
workouts. But then gradually my boss would extend my hours until I was
working a full time schedule, and with dh and the three kids, well,
something had to give. And besides, when you can go first thing in the
morning, it isn't crowded. If you have to go in the evening or on weekends,
well the place was just packed, lines for everything, barely any room to get
on the workout floor without slapping the person next to you when you do the
arm roll things. Nita has inspired me to get back into a routine though.
I've got lots of equipment here, I just need the motivation.
td
>
>
> Katie
>
>
tinydancer
snipped>
> I shop at Stage for my bras. They only have one style, but it's a good
one.
> I just buy 2 or 3 of the same one. Recently, I found a specialty store in
> Baton Rouge for cancer survivors. They mostly sell, specialty bras for
> women who've lost one or both of their breasts, but they also have every
> size bra in the world. The problem is that they are super expensive.
>
I know we have one of those really expensive stores here too, and so far
I've avoided it, but I may have to break down, take out a home improvement
loan ;-) and go there, check the place out.
td
Nitamargarita
>
> "Nitamargarita" <aadd...@blahblahcox.net> wrote in message
> news:vNtIb.13744$WQ3.4501@lakeread05...
> >
> snipped>
> >
> > Your outfits sound cute. I don't have any leg warmers, but I remember
my
> > rainbow striped ones from when I was younger, hot stuff:) I cried like
a
> > baby when I had to leave my son at school,
>
>
> Oh I did the same thing when my youngest started going all day, came home
> before 9:00 a.m., sat down at the kitchen table, looked at the clock, and
> burst out crying. I was a mess, so lonesome. :(
>
>
Yeah, change can be difficult. I feel kind of bad now because sometimes I
can't wait for school to start.
>
>
> having something just for me and
> > going somewhere that people actually call me by my name is really cool.
>
>
> I remember meeting somebody for the first time when I was all on my own,
> introducing myself, and stopping cause I didn't know what to say. I
usually
> introduced myself as 'so and so's wife' or so and so's mom, and suddenly I
> wasn't connected to anybody. I was all on my own. It caught me so
> off-guard, not to be described as 'attached' to somebody in a situation.
>
>
I'm southern, and it is very common for men to refer to other men's wives as
their "old lady", talk about make you want to kick some major ass. "Hey
buddy, I have a name!" I have even caught my own husband doing it, it's
disgusting. It only took one time for him to figure out that wasn't cool,
the pain in his ribs probably helped him to remember:)
He is, people often compliment us on our relationship and he likes to say
"You never fight a force of nature, you hunker down and hope it's passes
over you without doing much damage." I feel for him sometimes, I am NOT a
subtle woman. lol
Nita
Nitamargarita
>
> "Nitamargarita" <aadd...@blahblahcox.net> wrote in message
> news:S_tIb.13746$WQ3.8402@lakeread05...
> snipped>
> > I shop at Stage for my bras. They only have one style, but it's a good
> one.
> > I just buy 2 or 3 of the same one. Recently, I found a specialty store
in
> > Baton Rouge for cancer survivors. They mostly sell, specialty bras for
> > women who've lost one or both of their breasts, but they also have every
> > size bra in the world. The problem is that they are super expensive.
> >
>
>
> I know we have one of those really expensive stores here too, and so far
> I've avoided it, but I may have to break down, take out a home
improvement
> loan ;-) and go there, check the place out.
>
> td
>
>
>
Well, think of it this way, you can either spend the money on bras now, or
on knee pads later.
lol
Nita
tinydancer
We sound a lot alike, with similar husbands I think. Mine jokes about
deserving 'combat pay' or whatever that's referred to as, you know, they
earn more during wartime. ;) It's seldom boring around here, he didn't
sign on for the train ride at the zoo, he signed on for the biggest
rollercoaster ride of his life. <g> We are both big teases, jokers, so we
laugh a lot.
td
tinydancer
>
> "tinydancer" <tinyd...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:U7uIb.2492$Is5....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "Nitamargarita" <aadd...@blahblahcox.net> wrote in message
> > news:S_tIb.13746$WQ3.8402@lakeread05...
> > snipped>
> > > I shop at Stage for my bras. They only have one style, but it's a
good
> > one.
> > > I just buy 2 or 3 of the same one. Recently, I found a specialty
store
> in
> > > Baton Rouge for cancer survivors. They mostly sell, specialty bras
for
> > > women who've lost one or both of their breasts, but they also have
every
> > > size bra in the world. The problem is that they are super expensive.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I know we have one of those really expensive stores here too, and so far
> > I've avoided it, but I may have to break down, take out a home
> improvement
> > loan ;-) and go there, check the place out.
> >
> > td
> >
> >
> >
>
> Well, think of it this way, you can either spend the money on bras now, or
> on knee pads later.
Bwahahahhahha, so true.
td
Nitamargarita
A good sense of humor is invaluable. The most important lesson I've learned
as an adult is that sometimes it's more important to just be happy than to
be right.
Nita
nan
> "nan" <nanl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8f49fa86.03123...@posting.google.com...
> > lucy...@claque.net (Lucy A. Afar) wrote in message
> news:<ed128780.03123...@posting.google.com>...
> > > vivis...@yahoo.com (vivisectrix) wrote in message
> news:<3ff0e8e0...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...
> > Hello, Lucy,
> >
> > Vivi wrote:
> >
> > "And in my childhood I was horribly abusive and sadistic with my
> > siblings and playmates.
> >
> > Unless I missed it, Vivi has NOT said, as you suggested, she had been
> > "horribly abused."
> >
> > If I missed that part, I'd appreciate knowing.
> you missed it. Vivi was physically and sexually abused by her shit of a
> father.
Thanks, Child. I thought the Thread was about Styner. After reading
Lucy's post, I decided it wasn't, so I didn't read the earlier posts.
After awhile,
I wondered why the topic digressed from Styner to Vivi's strange but
honest account of herself. I went to the top of the thread and read
through it.
Now I understand.
Happy New Year - the Sun will return to Alaska! from Nan
Sarah Monroe
>workouts, so I crank up the mp3 player and hit the elliptical trainer for
>about an hour. I need music with cuss words to get me through :)
>
>
>
>Nita
Bwahahaha. You can find a lot of that with the rap "music" around today. I can
just picture it. LOL
Gms
Eat Mor Chikin
Child
> I'm sorry, I know how you feel. That was why I eventually quit going. I
> started working, just part time at first. And I could still sneak in the
> workouts. But then gradually my boss would extend my hours until I was
> working a full time schedule, and with dh and the three kids, well,
> something had to give. And besides, when you can go first thing in the
> morning, it isn't crowded. If you have to go in the evening or on
weekends,
> well the place was just packed, lines for everything, barely any room to
get
> on the workout floor without slapping the person next to you when you do
the
> arm roll things. Nita has inspired me to get back into a routine though.
> I've got lots of equipment here, I just need the motivation.
The great thing about weight training is that you don't need a gym. If you
are a little creative, you dont' even need a bench. A set of plates and a
bar, and two plated dumbbells and you can get a full body workout at home in
your living room.
Child
> Lucy's post, I decided it wasn't, so I didn't read the earlier posts.
> After awhile,
> I wondered why the topic digressed from Styner to Vivi's strange but
> honest account of herself. I went to the top of the thread and read
> through it.
> Now I understand.
>
> Happy New Year - the Sun will return to Alaska! from Nan
Its coming!!
Hope your new year is safe and happy!
Nitamargarita
"Sarah Monroe" <gmsp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031231070741...@mb-m27.aol.com...
I don't like rap music very much. Just some good hard rock music will do
fine, I will admit I'm a sight running away from the imaginary guy with the
knife.
lol
Nita
> Gms
>
>
> Eat Mor Chikin