JBR: Jonbenet's pediatrician
Maggie8097
Kris wrote:
What *I* am curious about, then, is why did the doctor have to
NOTICE an injury scar ON HER FACE, if JBR was taken to the
doctor's office for every other nit and pick? An injury that
produces a scar is just as severe (or moreso!) than an injury
such as a hurt finger.
And, being in the pageant world, wouldn't a facial injury be
something that would induce a parent to get prompt
medical attention so that it does NOT scar?
Call ME confused on this!
***Well, however serious the injury was, no facial scar is apparent in any
photograph of her I have ever seen. I assume the doctor saw the results of
a recent injury that even a nervous mother like Patsy knew was too minor to
require medical attention. And I would imagine you're right--Patsy would
have jumped all over a facial injury that was likely to lead to permanent
scarring--so this sounds pretty minor to me.
Maggie
Kris Baker
maggi...@aol.com (Maggie8097) wrote:
>***Do you have children? If you do, surely you know that the injuries
>JBR's doctor reported are not even remotely sufficient to raise
suspicions
>about child abuse. According to his records, in 3 years Dr. Beuf
treated
>her for two injuries--a fall at a supermarket and a hurt finger. He
also
>noticed a scar on her cheek which was attributed to a play accident
with
>Burke. Since we know Patsy brought JBR in to his office on average
about
>every 6 weeks, the child couldn't possibly have exhibited other
injuries
>without the doctor seeing them. And there is no mention at all of
broken
>bones, stitches or emergency room visits. IMO, if these injuries
indicate
>the child was physically abused, there's not a child in America who
isn't.
>
>Maggie
Maggie - I just caught something in your note (capitalization mine)
>He also NOTICED a scar on her cheek which was
>ATTRIBUTED to a play accident with Burke. Since
>we know Patsy brought JBR in to his office on average about
>every 6 weeks,
What *I* am curious about, then, is why did the doctor have to
NOTICE an injury scar ON HER FACE, if JBR was taken to the
doctor's office for every other nit and pick? An injury that
produces a scar is just as severe (or moreso!) than an injury
such as a hurt finger.
And, being in the pageant world, wouldn't a facial injury be
something that would induce a parent to get prompt
medical attention so that it does NOT scar?
Call ME confused on this!
Kris (a mom)
Teresa
I may have missed something, but why would she be going to the doctor every
6 weeks? I have three sons who are all one year a part and I didn't even
go to the doctor's every six weeks.
Just curious,
Teresa
MGorman185
maggi...@aol.com (Maggie8097) writes:
>>Kris wrote:
[snipped]
>>And, being in the pageant world, wouldn't a facial injury be
>>something that would induce a parent to get prompt
>>medical attention so that it does NOT scar?
>
>***Well, however serious the injury was, no facial scar is apparent in any
>photograph of her I have ever seen. I assume the doctor saw the results of
>a recent injury that even a nervous mother like Patsy knew was too minor to
>require medical attention. And I would imagine you're right--Patsy would
>have jumped all over a facial injury that was likely to lead to permanent
>scarring--so this sounds pretty minor to me.
>
The photos we have seen have generally been of the pageant kind,
with JBR carefully coiffed and made-up. Absent a really horrific
scar, you would think that a good makeup job would eliminate any
concern over whether or not a scar could be seen.
But I have to agree with Kris; it seems like an injury to the face
might have been a reason for concern given the pageant activities.
--MG
ImNot911
Re: PSierut on 22 Sep 1997 asked:>4) Was a nurse in attendance when
JonBenet had her pediatric
>exams--especially the vaginal exams? Yes, I know Patsy was probably in the
>room, but was there a nurse as well?
Vaginal exams are not performed on little girls as part of the routine
physical exam. What are you thinking???
Maggie8097
someone wrote:
>Vaginal exams are not performed on little girls as part of the routine
>physical exam. What are you thinking???
Eleanor answered:
Dr. Beuf told Diane Sawyer that he performed SIX vaginal exams of
JonBenet.
**But we know there was at least some sloppy language used in the
interview. Diane Sawyer was the one who described the exams as "vaginal"
(although D. Beuf didn't correct her), but Dr. Beuf said he never examined
her with a speculum. It sounds more to me like the standard examination of
external genitalia.
Maggie
Maggie8097
Psieret wrote:
Who says he didn't see them? Just because he isn't mentioning any other
injuries doesn't mean he didn't see any. This doctor has rubbed me the
wrong way since the first time I saw him on TV, several months ago,
vehemently denying that JonBenet had ever been sexually abused. I couldn't
figure out why he was so adamant about it, especially since his
professional reputation was on the line. Wouldn't it have been wise to
display some caution, saying something like, "I saw no evidence of any
molestation" or "Physical examinations revealed no abuse to me," rather
than being so positive that she was NEVER molested and later possibly being
publicly humiliated if an autopsy showed definite proof of longterm abuse?
***The Dr. is obviously a friend of the Ramseys and it sounds to me like
he was speaking more as a friend than a physician when he made these
statements. I, too, was surprised that he didn't equivicate a little more.
Psieret wrote:
I would also like to know the following things:
1) Did Burke have a comparable number of doctor's visits as JonBenet
during the same period of time?
***What is the relevance of this question? The Dr. said that most of
JBR's visits were for colds and sinus things. If Burke had more visits,
maybe it just shows he got sick more than she did. If he had less, less
sick. I have one child the pediatrician sees about every two or three
months or so (and mostly for injuries). Another one, he sees once a year
at the annual checkup.
2) Why did the pediatrician, rather than her own doctor, give sedatives
to Patsy on the night after the murder?
**Many of us have posted that we have obtained prescriptions from friends
who are physicians. and it certainly seems that Dr. Beuf could be
described as a friend of the Ramseys.
3) Why, with all other friends and relatives in attendance, was it Dr.
Beuf who went on a walk with John Ramsey on the night of December 26?
**See above.
4) Was a nurse in attendance when JonBenet had her pediatric
exams--especially the vaginal exams? Yes, I know Patsy was probably in the
room, but was there a nurse as well?
**Why does it matter if a nurse was there if the child's MOTHER was in the
room? I certainly wouldn't expect the nurse to attend as well.
5) Was Dr. Beuf the pediatrician for the daughter of the Ramsey "Santa
Claus", who was also kidnapped some years ago?
**He couldn't have been (What a strange question!!!). He graduated from
medical school in 1976. Santa Claus's daughter was killed over 20 years ago.
6) Does anyone remember Nicole Brown Simpson's doctor's appointments for
"falling off a bike," etc. -- all of which were apparently believed by
medical professionals, yet later revealed to be the results of OJ's
beatings? Falls in supermarkets or golf clubs can and do happen to kids,
but they can also be excuses for covering other injuries.
***Gimme a break. He treated her for TWO injuries in three years. Now
that, of course, doesn't mean that these two injuries weren't caused by her
parents, but I can't imagine anything like this raising red flags in
anyone's mind (except apparently for a few people on this newsgroup). My
god, I'd be in jail now if my pediatrician was this suspicious.
Just to make sure I have this right---you are theorizing that Dr. Beuf was
aware (or should have been aware) of physical and sexual abuse of JBR; he
performed inappropriate vaginal exams on her; he inappropriately prescribed
sedatives for Patsy; and then he went on national television to tell the
world about his actions? This doesn't make any sense. (Unless, of course,
you think he is totally nuts).
I went to the trouble of finding out a little about him. Dr. Beuf
received his medical degree from Temple Univ. in 1976 and did his residency
in pediatrics at Childrens Hospital in Philadelphia. He is Board Certified
in Pediatrics and completes fifty hours of continuing medical education
annually.
I certainly don't know this man, and maybe he is a drug-pushing protector
of child-abusing parents. But I doubt it. If this were true, he would
have never told us about prescribing drugs for Patsy, or mentioned the
vaginal exams or any of JBR's injuries.
Maggie
PSierut
<HTML>maggi...@aol.com (Maggie8097) wrote:
>Since we know Patsy brought JBR in to his office on average
about
>every 6 weeks, the child couldn't possibly have exhibited other
injuries
>without the doctor seeing them.
Who says he didn't see them? Just because he isn't mentioning any other
injuries doesn't mean he didn't see any. This doctor has rubbed me the
wrong way since the first time I saw him on TV, several months ago,
vehemently denying that JonBenet had ever been sexually abused. I couldn't
figure out why he was so adamant about it, especially since his
professional reputation was on the line. Wouldn't it have been wise to
display some caution, saying something like, "I saw no evidence of any
molestation" or "Physical examinations revealed no abuse to me," rather
than being so positive that she was NEVER molested and later possibly being
publicly humiliated if an autopsy showed definite proof of longterm abuse?
I would also like to know the following things:
1) Did Burke have a comparable number of doctor's visits as JonBenet
during the same period of time?
2) Why did the pediatrician, rather than her own doctor, give sedatives
to Patsy on the night after the murder?
3) Why, with all other friends and relatives in attendance, was it Dr.
Beuf who went on a walk with John Ramsey on the night of December 26?
4) Was a nurse in attendance when JonBenet had her pediatric
exams--especially the vaginal exams? Yes, I know Patsy was probably in the
room, but was there a nurse as well?
5) Was Dr. Beuf the pediatrician for the daughter of the Ramsey "Santa
Claus", who was also kidnapped some years ago?
Martha Sprowles
PSierut wrote:
>
> <HTML>maggi...@aol.com (Maggie8097) wrote:
> >Since we know Patsy brought JBR in to his office on average
> about
> >every 6 weeks, the child couldn't possibly have exhibited other
> injuries
> >without the doctor seeing them.
>
> Who says he didn't see them? Just because he isn't mentioning any other
> injuries doesn't mean he didn't see any. This doctor has rubbed me the
> wrong way since the first time I saw him on TV, several months ago,
> vehemently denying that JonBenet had ever been sexually abused. I couldn't
> figure out why he was so adamant about it, especially since his
> professional reputation was on the line. Wouldn't it have been wise to
> display some caution, saying something like, "I saw no evidence of any
> molestation" or "Physical examinations revealed no abuse to me," rather
> than being so positive that she was NEVER molested and later possibly being
> publicly humiliated if an autopsy showed definite proof of longterm abuse?
I would imagine that if this pediatrician were as remiss in his duties
as some of the ng thinks there would be at least a few protests from
other pediatricians. I know that doctors notoriously hang together in
the face of misconduct, but surely somewhere in the US, if not in the
world, there is an outspoken, child-advocate-type pediatrician who
spends his/her time treating abused children who would have spoken for
the record if Dr. Beuf were truly such a bad guy. Yet no such thing has
happened, to my knowledge. I'm not including Cyril Wecht, who has put
himself in the spotlight too many times (and of course who may be
correct in this instance, too--but he is *not* a pediatrician), but a
genuine, in the trenches, pediatric expert in abuse.
> I would also like to know the following things:
>
> 1) Did Burke have a comparable number of doctor's visits as JonBenet
> during the same period of time?
I do not understand the significance of this. My son is allergic to
everything and has many more doctor's visits than my daughter. I do not
believe this is unusual.
> 2) Why did the pediatrician, rather than her own doctor, give sedatives
> to Patsy on the night after the murder?
I suspect they are socially if not friends at least travelers in the
same circles. Patsy has shown herself to be outspoken; maybe he was the
only MD she knew who was present, and she asked him. How could a doctor
who knew this woman (and knew her well, considering the number of times
she had her child in his office) refuse to prescribe for her when her
child has been found murdered?
> 3) Why, with all other friends and relatives in attendance, was it Dr.
> Beuf who went on a walk with John Ramsey on the night of December 26?
Maybe because John Ramsey wanted to confide in him and get his advice
about how to deal with Burke's involvement? Maybe because he wanted to
talk to him about Burke's emotional state after the death of his sister?
Maybe they were friends?
> 4) Was a nurse in attendance when JonBenet had her pediatric
> exams--especially the vaginal exams? Yes, I know Patsy was probably in the
> room, but was there a nurse as well?
Huh? The testimony in the Little Rascals daycare molestation case shows
that pediatricians can examine a little girl's hymen without an invasive
procedure, simply by positioning her properly on the examining table.
Why would a nurse be required?
> 5) Was Dr. Beuf the pediatrician for the daughter of the Ramsey "Santa
> Claus", who was also kidnapped some years ago?
Do you think Beuf was complicit in that, too?
> 6) Does anyone remember Nicole Brown Simpson's doctor's appointments for
> "falling off a bike," etc. -- all of which were apparently believed by
> medical professionals, yet later revealed to be the results of OJ's
> beatings? Falls in supermarkets or golf clubs can and do happen to kids,
> but they can also be excuses for covering other injuries.
I would expect there to have been more than two injuries, and that they
would've been more severe, if Patsy had been covering for abuse. More
bruises, more broken bones.
Martha Sprowles
>
>
Douglas M. Case
In article <19970922113...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
maggi...@aol.com (Maggie8097) wrote:
Nope. Beuf himself related five (not six) vaginal examinations after
being asked to check his records. When asked if he would have seen an
abrasion of her hymen, Beuf replied "Probably."
Source: ABC News transcript
dmc
------------------
What is robbing a bank compared with founding a bank?
-Bertolt Brecht
Martha Sprowles
ImNot911 wrote:
>
> On 22 Sep 1997, four...@earthlink.net said:> Nope. Beuf >himself related
> five (not six) vaginal examinations after
> >being asked to check his records. When asked if he would have >seen an
> abrasion of her hymen, Beuf replied "Probably."<
>
> would allow this kind of examination of her young daughter? How did the
> doctor justify performing such intrusive and traumatic examinations on this
> child? I know a doctor who is active in the fight against child abuse. He
> treats victims of abuse free of charge and voluntarily testifies in the
> cases he treats. Sometimes vaginal examinations of children are required
> for collection of evidence and treatment of injuries. This is sad, because
> the mental effects of a vaginal exam can be more traumatic than the
> physical intrusion.
> That whole Ramsey gang is badly twisted.
This might not change your opinion of Beuf/Ramseys, but once again:
these exams were *not* "internal" exams--no speculum involved. It is
possible for a doctor to do a so-called "vaginal" exam by having the
girl lie on her side with her knees to her chin. This is how the exams
were done in the Little Rascals Daycare case.
Martha Sprowles
ImNot911
Kathieb1
In article <19970922153...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
imno...@aol.com (ImNot911) writes:
>
>I am absolutely disgusted with this information. What kind of mother
>would allow this kind of examination of her young daughter? How did the
>doctor justify performing such intrusive and traumatic examinations on this
>child? I know a doctor who is active in the fight against child abuse. He
>treats victims of abuse free of charge and voluntarily testifies in the
>cases he treats. Sometimes vaginal examinations of children are required
>for collection of evidence and treatment of injuries. This is sad, because
>the mental effects of a vaginal exam can be more traumatic than the
>physical intrusion.
>That whole Ramsey gang is badly twisted.
>
>
Beuf specifically stated that he did not do any "intrusive" vaginal exams.
He said he did not use speculum at any time...to do so would have required
anesthesia which he never used with JBR.
"Though this may be play to you, 'Tis death to us" Robert L'Estrange
PSierut
I posted some questions (admittedly, some were kind of strange!) about
JonBenet's pediatrician yesterday mainly because (barring the involvement
of a completely unknown intruder), I can't help but believe this murder did
NOT occur in a vacuum. I keep thinking there had to be signs, precursors,
or some past behavior on someone's part that indicate SOMEthing was going
on. For instance, some readers found it strange that I questioned how many
times Burke went to the pediatrician compared to JB. I guess I was
thinking along the lines of: if Burke had NEVER logged a doctor's
appointment in those three years, in comparison to JB's 27 appointments,
that would possibly lend credence to the theory of JonBenet as the spoiled,
highly favored child who had to be checked out for every sniffle, and Burke
as the neglected, very jealous brother. (Or possibly he was just very
healthy, I'll admit!) On the other hand, if both kids had that many
appointments in three years, possibly Patsy was way too solicitous about
their health, which probably says something about Patsy's mindset. As for
having a nurse present during a vaginal examination, I thought that whether
the mom was in the room or not, it was standard procedure to have a nurse
nearby during such things -- if only to avoid any later charge of
impropriety in these sue-happy times. I just thought that was how these
kinds of exams went, but what do I know--I'm a guy and obviously never had
one! I should add that I'm not saying there was any complicity or
ineptitude on the part of Dr. B, but just tossing out some questions.
Maggie8097
Maggie wrote:
>**But we know there was at least some sloppy language used in the
>interview. Diane Sawyer was the one who described the exams as "vaginal"
>(although D. Beuf didn't correct her), but Dr. Beuf said he never examined
>her with a speculum. It sounds more to me like the standard examination of
>external genitalia.
dmc answered:
Nope. Beuf himself related five (not six) vaginal examinations after
being asked to check his records. When asked if he would have seen an
abrasion of her hymen, Beuf replied "Probably."
***The relevant portion of the transcript follows. You will note that
the Dr. never said the words "vaginal examination"--these words were Sawyer's.
DIANE SAWYER
(From taped telephone conversation) How many times did you give her
a vaginal examination?
DR FRANCESCO BEUF
Well, it was five or six times in that three - year period.
DIANE SAWYER
(VO) We asked him to specifically review all notes that might
pertain. He agreed, citing the frenzy of uninformed speculation. Be
warned, these are a doctor's clinical notes about a young patient.
September 1993 -- a call about vaginal redness, possibly associated
with recent diarrhea. April 1994 -- a visit about a problem perhaps
related to the use of bubble bath, which can be an irritant.
October 1994 -- a routine physical. No problems noted, though some
indication of occasional bedwetting. Dr Beuf says 20 percent to 25
percent of children that age wet the bed. March 1995 -- abdominal
pain and fever. Tests and exam showed no problem. August 1996 --
another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said
everything checked out as normal. We asked what he made of this
number of complaints?
(From taped telephone conversation) Would that be unusual?
DR FRANCESCO BEUF
For a child that age, certainly not. They don't wipe themselves very
well after they urinate. And it's something which usually is curable
by having them take plain water baths or learning to wipe better.
But if you have four - year - old kids, you know how hard that is.
The amount of vaginitis which I saw on the child was totally
consistent with little girls her age.
DIANE SAWYER
If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have
seen it?
DR FRANCESCO BEUF
Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a
speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under
anesthesia.
DIANE SAWYER
Did you see in any of these examinations any sign of possible sexual
abuse?
DR FRANCESCO BEUF
No, and I certainly would have reported it to the social service
people if I had. That's something that all of us in pediatrics are
very acutely aware of.
DIANE SAWYER
(on camera) And some other notes. Dr Beuf says he last saw JonBenet
Ramsey in November 1996, and that was a checkup for a sinus
infection. A couple of other things. Dr Beuf says he has turned in
people he has suspected of physical and sexual abuse in his career,
and that he not only looks for physical evidence, but personality
changes in the children involved. And he says he saw none of that
with JonBenet Ramsey.
And PrimeTime consulted other pediatric experts about JonBenet's
records, and they agreed with Dr Beuf's analysis that there was
nothing unusual there for a girl her age. When we come back, we will
take you to the Ramsey home.
(Commercial Break)
Maggie
Maggie8097
Psieret asked:
5) Was Dr. Beuf the pediatrician for the daughter of the Ramsey "Santa
Claus", who was also kidnapped some years ago?
Maggie answered:
He couldn't have been (What a strange question!!!). He graduated from
medical school in 1976. Santa Claus's daughter was killed over 20 years ago.
***Big whoops! I meant to say Santa Claus's daughter was KIDNAPPED over
20 years ago.
Maggie
glas
Kris Baker wrote:
> Maggie - I just caught something in your note (capitalization mine)
> >He also NOTICED a scar on her cheek which was
> >ATTRIBUTED to a play accident with Burke. Since
> >we know Patsy brought JBR in to his office on average about
> >every 6 weeks,
>
> What *I* am curious about, then, is why did the doctor have to
> NOTICE an injury scar ON HER FACE, if JBR was taken to the
> doctor's office for every other nit and pick? An injury that
> produces a scar is just as severe (or moreso!) than an injury
> such as a hurt finger.
>
> And, being in the pageant world, wouldn't a facial injury be
> something that would induce a parent to get prompt
> medical attention so that it does NOT scar?
Good point Kris, and one that I have been wondering about myself.
Firstly, with JonBenet going to the doctor as often as she did,
wouldn't he have seen the injury before it was simply a scar? If not,
why? Did she not visit the pediatrician while this injury was
evident? If not, why again? Was there something about it that made
them not want the good doctor to see it and ask questions? Perhaps if
Burke did it, it is an indicator of his being abusive towards JonBenet
and Patsy did not want the doctor to know that her son was treating
his sister that way because of the questions that would be raised.
Secondly, I agree with your point about why it wasn't something that
JonBenet was taken to the doctor for. Seems to me that if my child
was modeling in beauty pageants and got an injury to her face, I would
certainly take her to the doctor, especially if I was the kind of
parent that took my child to the doctor for every cough and sniffle
like Patsy seems to have been. This could all tie in quite nicely
with the "Burke did it and Mommy is covering for him" theory.
glas
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grif...@ix.netcom.com
PSierut wrote:
As for
> having a nurse present during a vaginal examination, I thought that whether
> the mom was in the room or not, it was standard procedure to have a nurse
> nearby during such things -- if only to avoid any later charge of
> impropriety in these sue-happy times. I just thought that was how these
> kinds of exams went, but what do I know--I'm a guy and obviously never had
> one!
I've always thought the same thing, and I'm a female. I don't know if
female gynecologists have a "nurse-witness" as well, 'cause I've always
had male doctors. Maybe someone here can tell us.
BTW and FWIW, I'll never be convinced that 5 or 6 genital or vaginal
exams of a child age 6 and under is "perfectly normal." I *was* a
child, I took my daughter (a child) to the pediatrician regularly, all
my girlfriends used to be children, most of them have daughters...and
I've never heard of such a thing.
Linda
PattyC4303
In article <342674...@erols.com>, Martha Sprowles <spro...@erols.com>
writes:
Someone wrote:
>> 4) Was a nurse in attendance when JonBenet had her pediatric
>> exams--especially the vaginal exams? Yes, I know Patsy was probably in the
>> room, but was there a nurse as well?
Martha wrote:
>Huh? The testimony in the Little Rascals daycare molestation case shows
>that pediatricians can examine a little girl's hymen without an invasive
>procedure, simply by positioning her properly on the examining table.
>Why would a nurse be required?
With the potential for legal action due to accusations of abuse of some
sort, as well as because the MD's hands are kind of "occupied" and he/she
can't write notes while examining, MOST MD's will have a nurse present when
performing vaginal (or "intimate" exams). In the case of a kid, and if the
MD was ok with writing down the notes after, I would expect the Mom's
presence would make the MD feel comfortable with doing the exam without
fear of being accused of doing anything out of line.
PattyC
ImNot911
On 9-22-97 Linda (grif...@ix.netcom.com) said:> I'll never be convinced
that 5 or 6 genital or vaginal
>exams of a child age 6 and under is "perfectly normal." I *was* a
>child, I took my daughter (a child) to the pediatrician regularly, all
>my girlfriends used to be children, most of them have daughters...and
>I've never heard of such a thing.
>
>
problem that required the doctor to examine her genital area (internal or
external, doesn't matter), it doesn't sound like things were normal in that
household.
JoAnn
Maggie8097
On 9-22-97 Linda (grif...@ix.netcom.com) said:> I'll never be convinced
that 5 or 6 genital or vaginal
>exams of a child age 6 and under is "perfectly normal." I *was* a
>child, I took my daughter (a child) to the pediatrician regularly, all
>my girlfriends used to be children, most of them have daughters...and
>I've never heard of such a thing.
>
**Big difference between genital and vaginal exams. Every time one of my
daughters has a checkup, the pediatrician gives a quick look to her genital
area (5 or 10 seconds). I have had three different pediatricians and they
all do this--nothing strange about it at all. A lengthy *vaginal* exam
would be something else entirely. Dr. Beuf has said he didn't use a
speculum on her, so we know he didn't do an internal.
I agree that more information would be nice, but I find it hard to believe
the man would go on national television and admit to obvious improprieties
with a (now-dead) patient. What's in it for him?
Maggie
Douglas M. Case
In article <19970922154...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
maggi...@aol.com (Maggie8097) wrote:
> Maggie wrote:
>>**But we know there was at least some sloppy language used in the
>>interview. Diane Sawyer was the one who described the exams as "vaginal"
>>(although D. Beuf didn't correct her), but Dr. Beuf said he never examined
>>her with a speculum. It sounds more to me like the standard examination of
>>external genitalia.
>
>dmc answered:
> Nope. Beuf himself related five (not six) vaginal examinations after
>being asked to check his records. When asked if he would have seen an
>abrasion of her hymen, Beuf replied "Probably."
>
>***The relevant portion of the transcript follows. You will note that
>the Dr. never said the words "vaginal examination"--these words were Sawyer's.
Well,just for starters,I never said he spoke the words. That wasn't the
question,until now. Sawyer asks him,"How many times did you give her a
vaginal examination?" And Beuf replies,"Well,it was five or six times..."
Later she notes they asked him to specifically review the pertinent
records,and he read off five occasions.
Now what,pray tell,is the subtle distinction between someone answering a
question in the affirmative and actually speaking the words? For whatever
reason,you were trying to back up a claim that he might have only examined
the external genitalia,but since he commented on the condition of the
hymen,it just ain't so.
Maggie8097
dmc wrote:
For whatever
reason,you were trying to back up a claim that he might have only examined
the external genitalia,but since he commented on the condition of the
hymen,it just ain't so.
***The following is the only comment Dr. Beuf made about "the condition of
the hymen":
DIANE SAWYER
If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have
seen it?
DR FRANCESCO BEUF
Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a
speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under
anesthesia.
***Clearly the dr. did not perform an internal exam on JBR. I don't know
why he didn't object to Sawyer's characterization of the exam as a vaginal
exam. Perhaps it is because in the medical literature there is nothing
characterized as a "vaginal exam." ("Pelvic exam" is the term I have found
for an internal examination.) Perhaps Sawyer's words were edited because
the ABC censors didn't like the sound of "external genitalia" during prime
time, and thought "vaginal exam" sounded more acceptable. Whatever the
case, it is clear to me that no internal examination of this child's vagina
was performed by Dr. Beuf. Of maybe you are aware of some way of
performing such an exam without the use of a speculum?
Maggie
Kris Baker
elli...@ix.netcom.com (Eleanor) wrote:
>Not necessarily. Are we talking about a permanent scar, or just the
>normal fading of a cut or abrasion that isn't completely healed yet?
Obviously, we don't know...but because it was mentioned
as "previous," my curiosity was aroused.
>Even a very minor scratch is going to show for a little while, but
>it's not a permanent defect. Would you take your kid to the doctor for
>a scratch, or would you wash it and disinfect it and then let nature
>take its course?
>Eleanor (elli...@ix.netcom.com)
Actually, I've taken my daughter to the doctor for some pretty
minor things (in one instance, a chicken-pox that she insisted
on scratching and which I thought would leave a scar -- and
did). Of course, I wasn't at the doctor as frequently as PR,
but I did try to be vigilant.
Kris
JBrown6000
Linda says:
<<BTW and FWIW, I'll never be convinced that 5 or 6 genital or vaginal
exams of a child age 6 and under is "perfectly normal." I *was* a
child, I took my daughter (a child) to the pediatrician regularly, all
my girlfriends used to be children, most of them have daughters...and
I've never heard of such a thing.
*What were the complaints you were taking your children to the doctor for?
The occasions when genital exams were done seemed to require that course
of action. How else to check out certain symptoms?
jb
guppy
grif...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> I've always thought the same thing, and I'm a female. I don't know if
> female gynecologists have a "nurse-witness" as well, 'cause I've always
> had male doctors. Maybe someone here can tell us.
> Linda
The definitive book on gynecology without "nurse-witnesses"
was written by alt.true-crime's very own Jack Olsen and
is titled "Doc". Highly recommended.
Cheers,
guppy
Martha Sprowles
cyli wrote:
>
> Since I grew up when it was mostly men practicing medicine, I became
> accustomed (as much as one ever can) to men doing my gyn exams. When
> our HMO got a woman ob/gyn, my doctor asked if I'd prefer to have her
> examine me. I still can't imagine why. Either you trust your doctor
> or not. I trust mine. Why go to a woman just because* she's a woman?
> Is it because it's presumed she'll have no sexual interest in me? I
> presume my male doctor's not getting excited when he examines me. And
> why is a woman doctor presumed 'safer?' What if she's gay or bi and
> went into the profession because it turns her on? The world gets
> odder all the time. Were I a female doctor, I'd certainly be sure to
> have the nurse/witness around during exams, just as male doctors do.
> I'd assume some of the women in this group have had pelvics from
> female doctors and can tell us if they, indeed, do arrange that self
> protection.
I prefer a female gynecologist because she knows what I'm talking about
when I tell her about cramps, or a heavy period, or PMS. The most
sympathetic, kind-hearted, best-trained male gynecologist can never
*know* the way a female one can. It's nice for me when my doctor tells
me, "oh, yeah, I get that too. This will help..."
Martha
cyli
Since I grew up when it was mostly men practicing medicine, I became
accustomed (as much as one ever can) to men doing my gyn exams. When
our HMO got a woman ob/gyn, my doctor asked if I'd prefer to have her
examine me. I still can't imagine why. Either you trust your doctor
or not. I trust mine. Why go to a woman just because* she's a woman?
Is it because it's presumed she'll have no sexual interest in me? I
presume my male doctor's not getting excited when he examines me. And
why is a woman doctor presumed 'safer?' What if she's gay or bi and
went into the profession because it turns her on? The world gets
odder all the time. Were I a female doctor, I'd certainly be sure to
have the nurse/witness around during exams, just as male doctors do.
I'd assume some of the women in this group have had pelvics from
female doctors and can tell us if they, indeed, do arrange that self
protection.
On 26 Sep 1997 05:02:40 GMT, guppy <gup...@gte.net> wrote:
-----grif...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
-----
----->
-----> I've always thought the same thing, and I'm a female. I don't
know if
-----> female gynecologists have a "nurse-witness" as well, 'cause
I've always
-----> had male doctors. Maybe someone here can tell us.
-----
-----> Linda
-----
-----The definitive book on gynecology without "nurse-witnesses"
-----was written by alt.true-crime's very own Jack Olsen and
-----is titled "Doc". Highly recommended.
-----
----- Cheers,
----- guppy
"If I die of curiosity, who will entertain you with naive questions?"
I only answer my mail on an average of once every two months. Be patient.
grif...@ix.netcom.com
Martha Sprowles wrote:
> I prefer a female gynecologist because she knows what I'm talking about
> when I tell her about cramps, or a heavy period, or PMS. The most
> sympathetic, kind-hearted, best-trained male gynecologist can never
> *know* the way a female one can. It's nice for me when my doctor tells
> me, "oh, yeah, I get that too. This will help..."
You should have gone to *my* gynecologist! I had to have a procedure
done in his office, and he told me *exactly* what it would feel like,
and that it would last about a minute. Someone obviously described it
to him "perfectly" from the patient's end....uh....viewpoint. I said,
"I think your minute's about up," and sure 'nough, it was over.
Linda
glas
Martha Sprowles wrote:
> I prefer a female gynecologist because she knows what I'm talking
> about
> when I tell her about cramps, or a heavy period, or PMS. The most
> sympathetic, kind-hearted, best-trained male gynecologist can never
> *know* the way a female one can. It's nice for me when my doctor
> tells
> me, "oh, yeah, I get that too. This will help..."
>
> Martha
Me too. And another thing...my doctor is a lesbian. She is my family
doctor and my gyn, and I've never even remotely felt that she was
getting any kind of thrill from examining my nether regions. But I
too feel better knowing that when I tell her about my cramps and such,
or when she is poking and prodding, she knows where I'm coming from as
we share the same equipment.
Melissa Hardie
Cy...@visi.com wrote:
> Since I grew up when it was mostly men practicing medicine, I became
> accustomed (as much as one ever can) to men doing my gyn exams. When
> our HMO got a woman ob/gyn, my doctor asked if I'd prefer to have her
> examine me. I still can't imagine why. Either you trust your doctor
> or not. I trust mine. Why go to a woman just because* she's a woman?
> Is it because it's presumed she'll have no sexual interest in me? I
> presume my male doctor's not getting excited when he examines me. And
> why is a woman doctor presumed 'safer?' What if she's gay or bi and
> went into the profession because it turns her on? The world gets
> odder all the time. Were I a female doctor, I'd certainly be sure to
> have the nurse/witness around during exams, just as male doctors do.
> I'd assume some of the women in this group have had pelvics from
> female doctors and can tell us if they, indeed, do arrange that self
> protection.
I have never had a "witness" in either case. Is the nurse-witness an
American phenomenon, then -- related to litigious culture?
--
Melissa
*******************************************
'Generosity, Generosity. Generosity & Generosity!' Allen Ginsberg
New address: melissa...@english.usyd.edu.au
Halle 8
>dont...@aol.com wrote:
>What does this have to do with JBR or anything???????????
Could be Dr. Beuf's a lesbian?
Halle
cyli
Aha! Excellent reasons. I happen not to have ever had much in the
way of 'female problems,' so it hadn't occured to me.
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:22:18 -0400, Martha Sprowles
<spro...@erols.com> wrote:
-----
-----I prefer a female gynecologist because she knows what I'm talking
about
-----when I tell her about cramps, or a heavy period, or PMS. The
most
-----sympathetic, kind-hearted, best-trained male gynecologist can
never
-----*know* the way a female one can. It's nice for me when my doctor
tells
-----me, "oh, yeah, I get that too. This will help..."
-----
-----Martha
glas
DonTexAM wrote:
> In response to below
>
> What does this have to do with JBR or anything???????????
It was simply a bend in the thread of conversation. Perhaps you were
not following along and only caught the tail end? : )
DonTexAM
In response to below
What does this have to do with JBR or anything???????????
Martha Sprowles wrote:
> I prefer a female gynecologist because she knows what I'm talking
> about
> when I tell her about cramps, or a heavy period, or PMS. The most
> sympathetic, kind-hearted, best-trained male gynecologist can never
> *know* the way a female one can. It's nice for me when my doctor
> tells
> me, "oh, yeah, I get that too. This will help..."
>
> Martha
Me too. And another thing...my doctor is a lesbian. She is my family
doctor and my gyn, and I've never even remotely felt that she was
getting any kind of thrill from examining my nether regions. But I
too feel better knowing that when I tell her about my cramps and such,
or when she is poking and prodding, she knows where I'm coming from as
we share the same equipment.
glas
--
=== check out my web gallery ====
http://www.interaxs.net/pub/glas/
====== Free banners for Link Exchange ======
http://www.geocities.com/MadisonAvenue/2252/
PattyC4303
>The definitive book on gynecology without "nurse-witnesses"
>was written by alt.true-crime's very own Jack Olsen and
>is titled "Doc". Highly recommended.
>
> Cheers,
> guppy
>
!!!!! Much agree, guppy. THIS book was fascinating!
PattyC
Kathieb1
In article <melissa.hardie-...@mac27net78-143.arts.su.oz.au>,
melissa...@english.su.edu.au (Melissa Hardie) writes:
>
>> Since I grew up when it was mostly men practicing medicine, I became
>> accustomed (as much as one ever can) to men doing my gyn exams. When
>> our HMO got a woman ob/gyn, my doctor asked if I'd prefer to have her
>> examine me. I still can't imagine why. Either you trust your doctor
>> or not. I trust mine. Why go to a woman just because* she's a woman?
>> Is it because it's presumed she'll have no sexual interest in me? I
>> presume my male doctor's not getting excited when he examines me. And
>> why is a woman doctor presumed 'safer?' What if she's gay or bi and
>> went into the profession because it turns her on? The world gets
>> odder all the time. Were I a female doctor, I'd certainly be sure to
>> have the nurse/witness around during exams, just as male doctors do.
>> I'd assume some of the women in this group have had pelvics from
>> female doctors and can tell us if they, indeed, do arrange that self
>> protection.
> I have never had a "witness" in either case. Is the nurse-witness an
>American phenomenon, then -- related to litigious culture?
>
>--
>Melissa
> *******************************************
>'Generosity, Generosity. Generosity & Generosity!' Allen Ginsberg
> New address: melissa...@english.usyd.edu.au
>
>
Hi Melissa,
I believe it is an American thing...because so many doctors were being
accused or sued for inappropriate actions, nurses as witnesses were brought
into the examining room...though I don't know if its mandatory. I've never
had a gyn exam done without a nurse being present (and I've never
asked...it was just always done, no matter what doctor I've been to).
Kathie