Who killed two hikers near Mt. Pilchuck, Washington?
Shrike!
Who killed two hikers near Mt. Pilchuck?
By Brian Alexander and Jennifer Sullivan
Seattle Times staff reporters
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/
Two women who were found dead near a trail in the Mount Pilchuck area
had been shot, a source close to the investigation said Wednesday.
The pair, a mother and daughter from Seattle, were last seen alive at
about 10 a.m. on a day hike to Pinnacle Lake, about 20 miles east of
Granite Falls.
At about 2:30 p.m., another hiker called 911 after he discovered the
bodies a couple of miles up the popular trail near the lake.
There seemed to be more questions Wednesday than answers about the
slayings.
The Sheriff's Office declined to talk about their cause of death,
other than to say the pair died by "homicidal violence."
Sheriff's spokesman Rich Niebusch also didn't say whether detectives
had identified a suspect, but he warned people planning to hike in the
Pinnacle Lake area to be cautious.
Niebusch called for the public's help in the case, asking people who
were hiking in the area Tuesday and might have seen something to call
the sheriff's tip line at 425-388-3845.
Wednesday, the Sheriff's Office finished its investigation at the
scene and the bodies were removed by the Snohomish County Medical
Examiner's office, the Sheriff's Office and search-and-rescue crews.
The medical examiner is expected to release the identities of the
women and their cause of death after next-of-kin is notified and
scientific identification of the women via fingerprints, X-rays or
dental records is made.
One of the women was in her 40s, Niebusch said, and the other woman
was in her 20s. The older woman's husband was notified Tuesday night,
according to sources.
Niebusch declined to say whether the attack was random, but he did say
the women were hiking alone.
The Sheriff's Office is stepping up patrols in the area.
Niebusch said detectives likely recovered some evidence from the
scene, and today they'll be processing a late-90s purple Dodge
Caravan, which was towed from the trailhead Tuesday and is believed to
belong to the women.
Neil Bresheare, a member of the Mountaineers hiking group in Everett
who uses the trails in that area, said the news is "disconcerting,
because it is a family place, it's a place where you will take the kids."
Though part of the trail is heavily wooded, "You would feel pretty
comfortable," he said. "Everybody's pretty polite. I've never had any
problems whatsoever."
Acting Ranger Phyllis Reed of the Darrington Ranger District said the
area near Pinnacle Lake is popular with hikers coming out of Everett
and Seattle.
Bresheare said the two-mile trek is one of the closest to an urban
center of its kind.
"It's a pretty lake, you know; it's one of the nicest ones this
close," he said.
--
The computer can’t tell you the emotional story. It can give you
the exact mathematical design, but what’s missing is the eyebrows.
- Frank Zappa
robbielynn
that we can't be safe anywhere outdoors where we are
alone and not with a group. NOT FAIR!
tiny dancer
"robbielynn" <robbiel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152800249.4...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> As a woman and a lover of the outdoors, it makes me sick
> that we can't be safe anywhere outdoors where we are
> alone and not with a group. NOT FAIR!
How true. We can't even walk around the pond in local parks, on the jogging
trails, if we are alone. Not even in broad daylight anymore. Certain rape
apologists here should focus their attention on the fact that women aren't
able to do so many of the things they take for granted, rather than blaming
11 year old children for their own assaults.
td
Poe
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 11:27:23 -0400, "tiny dancer"
> <tinyda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"robbielynn" <robbiel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:1152800249.4...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> As a woman and a lover of the outdoors, it makes me sick
>>> that we can't be safe anywhere outdoors where we are
>>> alone and not with a group. NOT FAIR!
>>
>>
>>How true. We can't even walk around the pond in local parks, on the jogging
>>trails, if we are alone. Not even in broad daylight anymore. Certain rape
>>apologists here should focus their attention on the fact that women aren't
>>able to do so many of the things they take for granted, rather than blaming
>>11 year old children for their own assaults.
>>
>
>
>
> fear.
>
>
>
Unless you get attacked in your sleep. Plus, it would still be a huge
hassle legally and probably financially if you had to shoot someone in
the woods.
That said, we carry a weapon when in the deep outback, and I would never
camp alone with just one other women.
Wild Monkshood
robbielynn wrote:
> As a woman and a lover of the outdoors, it makes me sick
> that we can't be safe anywhere outdoors where we are
> alone and not with a group. NOT FAIR!
I am a solo hiker, but male. I often encounter lone females hiking.
Depending on where you hike, statistically, it is likely very safe. The
most danger is likely trail heads or areas of trails that near urban
areas. Most criminally minded are not going to hike 3 miles on the off
chance of finding a victim. Likely, anyone you meet on the trail is
going to be there for recreation.
Wild Monkshood
>
earthage
Thursday, July 13, 2006
Killer sought in trail deaths
Workers scouring area for evidence; still no suspects
By SCOTT GUTIERREZ AND JON NAITO
Seattle Post-Intelligencer
VERLOT -- Two women found dead along a popular trail off the Mountain
Loop Highway were a mother and daughter who investigators believe were
slain while hiking, law enforcement sources said Wednesday.
Snohomish County sheriff's investigators said they still had no
suspects Wednesday, one day after the women were found along the trail
in the Mount Pilchuck area in the Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National
Forest, about 20 miles east of Granite Falls.
One victim was in her 40s and the other in her 20s. Their gear
suggested they had planned a day hike on the 1.9-mile Pinnacle Lake
trail, said Deputy Rich Niebusch, a Sheriff's Office spokesman.
Witnesses last saw the women alive around 10 a.m. Tuesday at the
trailhead, on the northeastern edge of Mount Pilchuck.
A little more than four hours later, a hiker called 911 from a pay
phone to report finding the bodies. After making the discovery, the 911
caller had to hike back down the trail and travel several miles to
reach a campground, which could have taken a significant amount of
time, Niebusch said.
That leaves a window of only a few hours between when the victims
started their hike and when they were found.
"We have an unsolved homicide at this point. We haven't developed a
suspect, and we're asking people to take extra precautions if they're
going to go up there and hike," Niebusch said.
Niebusch did not disclose how the victims died, other than that they
had suffered trauma. They were found in the open, not far from the
trail. No one had tried to conceal them, he said.
The man and woman who found the bodies called for help from the Gold
Basin Campground, about 12 miles from the trailhead. Charles and Anne
Keller, who manage the campground, spoke with the couple, who said at
first that they couldn't tell if the women were dead.
"At first they thought they were using the bathroom because they were
hunched over in the fetal position," Anne Keller said. "The closer they
got, they realized they weren't alive."
They said the condition of the victims' bodies made it difficult to
discern they were women, according to the Kellers. The couple appeared
"visibly upset," the Kellers said.
About 30 people, including detectives and rescue workers, scoured the
surrounding area for possible evidence.
Authorities had to haul the bodies several miles on foot because the
sheriff's helicopter was grounded by foul weather, Niebusch said.
News of the violence evoked questions and uneasiness among Northwest
hikers who posted their thoughts on "Trail Talk," an online forum
provided by www.nwhikers.net
"This is not something that happens very often," said Lauren Braden,
communications director for the Washington Trails Association, during
an interview.
Andrew Engleson, editor of Washington Trails Magazine, said Tuesday's
slayings are the type of news that hikers dread, but that the risk of
something like this happening is relatively low.
"I think when you're out hiking, you're still safer than you are when
you're in the city. Statistically, the odds are much better on the
trail," Engleson said. "Caution is in order, but I wouldn't blow this
out of proportion. But it certainly does make you pause."
Gravity and sprained ankles usually are the biggest threat to hikers in
the Mount Pilchuck area, where trails ascend steep and rugged terrain.
There have been hikers who died from falls, said Gary Paull, wilderness
and trail coordinator for the Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest.
Of the four trails around Mount Pilchuck, Pinnacle Lake isn't the most
popular because it isn't immediately accessible from the Mountain Loop
Highway, a main road.
While the trail is not as steep as others, it has plenty of tree roots
and rocks to stumble over, Paull said.
"It's one of the rougher trails," he said.
Last June, hikers discovered human remains on Mount Pilchuck Road, a
few miles from where the bodies turned up Tuesday.
The case was drug-related and two men were charged with unlawful
disposal of human remains, Niebusch said. It had no connection to
Tuesday's slayings.
Wild Monkshood
tiny dancer wrote:
> "robbielynn" <robbiel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1152800249.4...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>> As a woman and a lover of the outdoors, it makes me sick
>> that we can't be safe anywhere outdoors where we are
>> alone and not with a group. NOT FAIR!
>
>
>
> How true. We can't even walk around the pond in local parks, on the jogging
> trails, if we are alone. Not even in broad daylight anymore. Certain rape
> apologists here should focus their attention on the fact that women aren't
> able to do so many of the things they take for granted, rather than blaming
> 11 year old children for their own assaults.
Are you saying you feel unsafe, or that you have actually been
threatened, etc.? Even though I prefer more remote hikes, I've found
state parks to be relatively nice, if you avoid campgrounds and parking
lots or other areas that have easy access. City parks are quite
different, as there are all types who may be "hanging out". Still, there
is the balm of others about, most likely for the same reason you are
there. I avoid teenagers like the plague, unless they are obviously non
surly, or in a pack. :)
Wild Monkshood
>
Wild Monkshood
Poe wrote:
Here in NC, you are not allowed to carry a firearm of the Blue Ridge
Parkway, State Parks, or City and County parks, in the city I live in.
Not sure about other city and county policies, but I suspect they are
similar.
Wild Monkshood
Poe
We usually carry mace and bear spray when we camp in relatively popular
areas like Blue Ridge Parkway (were were just there for our anniversary
in May). When we go really really far out we do pack a firearm, tho
we've never had to use it on anything other than targets. I camp with my
husband, tno. I simply wouldn't camp out alone with just a woman. I know
that sounds sexist, but unless someone threatening is carrying a weapon
of their own, my hubby can handle hand-to-hand combat as good as any
pasty-skinned geek to protect his fair maiden!
Wild Monkshood
Poe wrote:
What section of the BRP? I LOVE the Parkway. I try to go weekly, or
bi-weekly. I have mace for urban parks/trails, but usually end of
forgetting it unless I take Mom, who is 78.
Wild Monkshood
>
tiny dancer
"Wild Monkshood" <wild_mo...@bellsloth.net> wrote in message
news:aVwtg.89909$qd2....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
>
> tiny dancer wrote:
>
> > "robbielynn" <robbiel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1152800249.4...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> As a woman and a lover of the outdoors, it makes me sick
> >> that we can't be safe anywhere outdoors where we are
> >> alone and not with a group. NOT FAIR!
> >
> >
> >
> > How true. We can't even walk around the pond in local parks, on the
jogging
> > trails, if we are alone. Not even in broad daylight anymore. Certain
rape
> > apologists here should focus their attention on the fact that women
aren't
> > able to do so many of the things they take for granted, rather than
blaming
> > 11 year old children for their own assaults.
>
> Are you saying you feel unsafe, or that you have actually been
> threatened, etc.?
Here on our end of town, most people go to Shelley Lake. A park, with a
lake with lots and lots of ducks to feed. There is a jogging trail/bike
path around the lake. A very large playground for the kids, and a building
that offers lots of classes for both adults and children. The park is a
very long distance from downtown, and not within walking distance for most
people. Meaning one really needs to drive there to use the facilities.
There have been females assaulted on the jogging trail. Women have been
advised it is *unsafe* to go there alone, even to take kids to play at the
playground. This park is in the affluent end of town with nothing to
attract *riff-raff* other than *females* in the park during the daytime
hours. Years ago, when the park was first built, I used to allow my
daughters to go fishing at the lake with their friends. Sometimes they'd
ride their bikes to the jogging trail, which begins in our subdivision, and
take picnic lunches to spend the afternoon at the park, etc. Can't do that
anymore though.
td
tiny dancer
Haven't there been a couple unsolved homicides in the N.C. area of the
Smokey Mountains? I thought there were, but I just can't remember anymore?
td
>
> >
Poe
We stayed in a cabin in Black Mountain, and used that as home base. We
went all over the parkway. It is wonderful. I want to move to Asheville
so I can be near it, plus all the hippie stores!
Wild Monkshood
tiny dancer wrote:
Not sure. Some Bear attacks is all I recall. It is a huge area. The
Blue Ridge Parkway ends near there, but they are separate parks,
although both are managed by National Park Service, I believe.
Wild Monkshood
>
>
> td
>
>
>
Sharonpo
>
>
> tiny dancer wrote:
>> How true. We can't even walk around the pond in local parks, on
>> the jogging trails, if we are alone. Not even in broad daylight
>> anymore. Certain rape apologists here should focus their
>> attention on the fact that women aren't able to do so many of the
>> things they take for granted, rather than blaming 11 year old
>> children for their own assaults.
>
> Are you saying you feel unsafe, or that you have actually
> been
> threatened, etc.? Even though I prefer more remote hikes, I've
> found state parks to be relatively nice, if you avoid campgrounds
> and parking lots or other areas that have easy access. City parks
> are quite different, as there are all types who may be "hanging
> out". Still, there is the balm of others about, most likely for
> the same reason you are there. I avoid teenagers like the plague,
> unless they are obviously non surly, or in a pack. :)
>
> Wild Monkshood
It's the victim mentality. There are no safe places. Everyone,
everywhere is out to get them.
robbielynn
If you are a woman , you are vulnerable. Men's upper body strength,
their
interest in weapons , the rape factor, and even their arm length
makes
us vulnerable around them. And they can run faster too.
I have attended female defense courses but I don't carry a gun.
Women should not stop for a honking car. If approched at a mall,
scream and drop to the ground and use your large muscle groups in
the legs to kick. Never listen to the threat, scream and run if you
can.
You never want to leave point A and end up at point B out in the
woods.
You do what you have to at original point of attack. Make Noise!
> >
earthage2002
http://www.komotv.com/stories/44408.htm
Hikers Killed On Trail Identified As Seattle Women
July 13, 2006
By KOMO Staff & News Services
SEATTLE - Two women found slain on a popular Mount Pilchuck-area trail in
Snohomish County were a Seattle school librarian and one of her adult
daughters, a relative said.
In a statement issued Thursday, David Stodden of Seattle said the victims
were his wife, Mary Cooper, and their daughter, Susanna Stodden.
The statement expressed shock and grief at the deaths and said family trips
to the Cascade Mountains were a weekly occurrence.
"In a time of shock and grief, we would like to focus on the tremendous
positive legacy left by this extraordinary mother and daughter. As a
librarian, teacher, activist, neighbor, friend, and mother, Mary touched the
lives of countless people," it said.
"Susanna was dedicated to nurturing positive relationships between children
and the natural world, and her commitment to peace was evidence in her
compassionate nature. Like her mother, she lived her life in service to what
she believed. Passion for the outdoors was intrinsic to their lives."
Cooper, 56, worked as a librarian at Decatur Elementary School in Seattle,
and by Thursday evening a small memorial had already been placed near the
entrance of the school.
Susanna Stodden was 27.
"I'm just feeling my way through this. I just have a lot of family friends
supporting me," David Stodden told The Associated Press by phone on
Thursday.
The Snohomish County medical examiner's office was completing autopsies on
Thursday and was withholding formal identification of the victims pending
that development.
Investigators were trying to determine who was responsible for the killings
Tuesday on the Pinnacle Lake trail about 50 miles northeast of Seattle.
Snohomish County sheriff's Deputy Rich Niebusch has said the women died of
"homicidal violence" and were killed Tuesday, within 4½ hours of when their
bodies were found.
Niebusch said authorities did not immediately have any suspects in the
murders.
Investigators hoped to find some clues in a Dodge Caravan that was found at
the trailhead and apparently belonged to one of the victims, he said.
The women were last seen alive about 10 a.m. Tuesday and their bodies were
found about two miles away by a passer-by who hiked out to report the
discovery at 2:30 p.m. Tuesday. The area is northeast of Everett and south
of Verlot in the Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest.
Investigators completed their work at the scene Wednesday and carried the
bodies to the nearest road by foot because bad weather prevented use of a
helicopter.
Niebusch would not discuss any other evidence that might have been found.
He asked anyone with information, including people who might have been in
the area Tuesday, to contact sheriff's officers at 425-388-3845.
A memorial service for the two women is planned for Sunday.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Nancy Rudins
>
> It's the victim mentality. There are no safe places. Everyone,
> everywhere is out to get them.
>
You know, I really think you're right there. I can't tell you
how many situations I've been in where "conventional wisdom"
says something bad should have happened to me but nothing
ever did. I didn't feel fear for my safety either.
Kind regards,
Nancy
--
Live life like making pudding. Cook, then chill.
http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/nrudins/
earthage2002
Man who found bodies has a post on this forum.
Go to Witness.
http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15141&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=225
earthage2002
"earthage" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152817527.2...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/277413_hikers13.html
>
> Thursday, July 13, 2006
> Killer sought in trail deaths
> Workers scouring area for evidence; still no suspects
> By SCOTT GUTIERREZ AND JON NAITO
> Seattle Post-Intelligencer
>
>
> had suffered trauma. They were found in the open, not far from the
> trail. No one had tried to conceal them, he said.
>
> The man and woman who found the bodies called for help from the Gold
> Basin Campground, about 12 miles from the trailhead. Charles and Anne
> Keller, who manage the campground, spoke with the couple, who said at
> first that they couldn't tell if the women were dead.
>
> "At first they thought they were using the bathroom because they were
> hunched over in the fetal position," Anne Keller said. "The closer they
> got, they realized they weren't alive."
>
> They said the condition of the victims' bodies made it difficult to
> discern they were women, according to the Kellers. The couple appeared
> "visibly upset," the Kellers said.
>
like they were also beaten.
tiny dancer
"earthage2002" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:44b70767$0$5892$8826...@free.teranews.com...
Witness made it quite clear he didn't think they had been shot.
td
earthage2002
"tiny dancer" <tinyda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LOEtg.29$ly...@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
I think one of the articles said that they had been shot, but the
witness is saying he didn't hear any shots.
Just read the Court-TV forum and posters said Greta covered it
on her show and Mark Furhman made a comment that the women
didn't have faces. No wonder the witness is more than upset
and needs to talk to someone.
Poe
Or survivor instinct. Don't put yourself in dangerous situations and
you're less likely to be attacked.
Poe
raised. Don't fight physically with a man if you have the choice. Never
pull a weapon that depends on arm's length or upper body strength, like
a knife or even a bat (unless there is no choice). In addition, don't
walk too close to a wall where there are ingress points for an attacker
to hide or pull you into. The second you know you sense danger run your
ass off. If you're in a car that is suddenly taking off down a dirt road
that was hidden, jump. In general, get the fuck outta there, wherever
"there" is. It is not a victim mentality like someone else mentioned. It
is just being smart if you find yourself in a really bad situation.
Poe
> Sharonpo wrote:
>
>
>>
>> It's the victim mentality. There are no safe places. Everyone,
>> everywhere is out to get them.
>>
>
> You know, I really think you're right there. I can't tell you
> how many situations I've been in where "conventional wisdom"
> says something bad should have happened to me but nothing
> ever did. I didn't feel fear for my safety either.
>
> Kind regards,
> Nancy
>
>
It depends, Nancy. Sometimes it is just plain smart to avoid dangerous
situations. I'm not generally worried about my safety, definitely not
paranoid, but I avoid certain situations that are unsafe these days.
When I was much younger I scoffed at being careful. I hitched, went off
with almost anyone, dissapeared forever sometimes to other cities, etc.
I look back now to how lucky I was. I could go on and on about scenarios
that I now realize were bone-headed stupid for me to be in. I also
discarded conventional wisdom, and didn't feal fear either (except for
when I did and then I ran or whatever), and I am also still alive. It
doesn't mean the situations I put myself in were safe.
tiny dancer
I saw Furman on Greta. I assumed he was making the assumption that they had
been shot, because I thought it hadn't been determined yet that they had
been shot. Or at least not disclosed. On Greta it was said that the
identites and possibly 'cause of death' would be announced between 11:00 and
midnight, Pacific time, tonight.
Personally, I was thinking more of a Joseph Duncan-type killing. Beating
them to death with some sort of weapon. But then that would probably mean
more than one killer, so perhaps they were shot after all?
td
Cyli
(snipped)
>Sometimes it is just plain smart to avoid dangerous
>situations. I'm not generally worried about my safety, definitely not
>paranoid, but I avoid certain situations that are unsafe these days.
>When I was much younger I scoffed at being careful. I hitched, went off
>with almost anyone, dissapeared forever sometimes to other cities, etc.
>I look back now to how lucky I was.
Not really all that lucky. Most human beings are nice or uncaring.
What we read here and see screamed on TV is not typical of the
population in general. Yes, some of your behaviour did put you into a
higher likelihood of danger than staying home and watching TV would
have, but it's still not all that big a bunch. Even most criminals
don't kill, rape, and maim indiscriminately. While a solo hitchhiker
is more apt to wind up in a shallow grave somewhere than someone who's
only walking to church or the bus stop, it's still not a likely thing.
No, I don't recommend that anyone go tromping around the woods looking
for marijuana plantations or sniffing out meth labs, but I've met some
very odd people out there (by 'normal' standards) who were perfectly
nice and sometimes helpful if I asked or needed help. Only once in
about 20 years of solo camping, canoeing, and kayaking did I have any
trouble with another human being. Which I managed to avoid by finding
a safe place and staying there until he / they went away, so I don't
know how serious it could have been.
On the other hand, I came near death a couple of times because of the
nature of nature and / or my own carelessness or lack of knowledge.
Not to mention the couple of times I've almost been run down in town
by automobiles doing illegal or extremely unexpected things while I
was crossing downtown streets in broad daylight.
--
r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. Really.
Wild Monkshood
robbielynn wrote:
> I have attended female defense courses but I don't carry a gun.
> Women should not stop for a honking car. If approched at a mall,
> scream and drop to the ground and use your large muscle groups in
> the legs to kick.
Damn! I just wanted your opinion on this cologne. Now, I have a busted
testicle and a limp. :(
Wild (Tripod) Monkshood
earthage2002
"tiny dancer" <tinyda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LOEtg.29$ly...@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
Why do you think he didn't hear the shots? In the quiet of the wilderness,
two miles is not that far away.
tiny dancer
I don't know. It would seem that in the silence of the wilderness, one
would hear gunshots. Especially if, as Furman said, for the damage to be
that great to the victims, a large caliber weapon was probably used.
I don't have any kind of handle on this one, what about you? It would seem
to be a stranger killing.
td
tiny dancer
"comadreja" <comad...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:comadreja-t-35D4...@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <44b85e59$0$22977$8826...@free.teranews.com>,
> from where I live, it is a popular hiking area because most of hikes
> around Pilchuck are short, and there are some good views, and close
> access to the Puget Sound Area. Most people go there for day hikes, the
> longest is an overnight backpacking trip... There is also some climbing
> and scrambling routes like Three Fingers Jack etc...
>
> However, it doesn't get much foot traffic during the weekdays, it gets
> some but nothing compare to the weekends... The biggest concerns always
> are car break ins at the trailheads. I have never heard of hikers
> being robbed or mugged in the Pacific Northwest, because they make
> horrible targets, in a horrible mugging environment. Hikers don't carry
> much cash and many are not known to wear gold rolex watches and heavy
> jewelery while hiking. It is tough to corner them, because they can get
> away or hide in the heavily forested side of the west slope of the
> Cascades, not just trees, but some heavy underbrush, like alder scrub,
> devil's club etc. etc.
>
> I don't think they ran into a drug lab or a pot farm, because they
> were a on fairly popular trail in a wilderness area, Pot farmers want
> their stash not in any sort of heavily traffic area, ditto for a meth
> lab. Besides it would had been kind of bitch to drive through one lane
> forest service road day in and day out to protect their goods. Also a
> Forest Service Ranger or an Forest Service employee would run into their
> illegal activities.. mainly to if the trail needs maintenance...
>
> Right now, my guess, and my guesses are mostly wrong, is that it was
> a poacher, particularly a bear poacher. Black Bear hunting season
> starts on August 1st. It is a pretty controversial issue in Washington
> State, a couple years ago there was a referendum to ban using bait and
> dogs to hunt bears. It sounds like they were shot by a rifle, and if
> that is the case, they had to run into a hunter, which is verboten at
> this time of year. Pinnacle Lake, may be too low in altitude for black
> bears, I believe they like to be a bit higher in that area, and probably
> too close to humans development to get alot of bears. (Probably a better
> place is closer to the Cascade Crest, and in the Northern Cascades, like
> around Mount Baker and Mount Shuksan. (I am going to check my maps) If
> someone was hunting bears off season, they may be doing to get to their
> gallbladders, is my guess. I would like to see how this case pans out,
> because the only grief that has been caused to me hiking in Washington
> and Oregon have been chipmunks getting into my food bag hanging away
> from my campsite, that and deer waking me up at night to go after the
> salt in the spot I urinated in the middle of the night. The only females
> that were stalking me and hissing in my ear while hiking have been only
> mosquitos.
>
> The two clues that I think the cops can get right now, are
> footprints and tire tracks, that is a start. If there was any sign of a
> camp, they can get some more info. I really think they will find this
> perpetrator. I assume Law Enforcement will check out the family and
> friends, but I don't see that panning out, maybe I will be wrong....
>
> -c
But would a rifle shot do enough damage to both faces/bodies that it wasn't
evident to those that found them if they were male or female?
Cyli
<eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
(snipped)
>Why do you think he didn't hear the shots? In the quiet of the wilderness,
>two miles is not that far away.
The wilderness is not always (or even often) quiet. Sound of wind in
the trees, trees falling over (and that's a scary sound), etc.. Then
you have to think of the insulating properties of trees as far as
sound is concerned. Especially evergreens. If you're in an open
space and the sound source can get to you directly, and there's no
wind, and the sound source is in an open space, you can hear
astounding things at a great distance.
If your friends have just turned the corner of the trail and it's
level and thickly wooded, you may panic because you can't hear them
any more. It's how people surprize bears to the dismay of both people
and bears and to the occasional mauling of people.
Cyli
<tinyda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
(snipped)
>
>But would a rifle shot do enough damage to both faces/bodies that it wasn't
>evident to those that found them if they were male or female?
>
Big shotgun loaded with slugs could, especially if the people who
couldn't tell were the other hikers who found them. Large amounts of
blood and internal stuff all over would mess up my judgment pretty
easily. And they'd both have been wearing hiking clothes, which are
usually more to the masculine side of looks.
I don't know what's generally used up there for bear hunting, so it
could have been a shotgun or a rifle. Sounds of each, by the way,
are different, too.
One of my thoughts is that, if it was a mistaken identity of human for
bear, the mother or daughter (whichever might not have been shot at
the start) stayed with the body long enough for the shooter to
discover the error and take out the witness. Or make the additional
error and think she was another bear. Also, the shooter might have
had some demented idea that destroying the looks of the people might
confuse finding him / her (I'll vote for a him, in this case) and done
something close up. In which case there'll be tracks.
tiny dancer
> In article <g70ug.1988$Ur....@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > The two clues that I think the cops can get right now, are
> > > footprints and tire tracks, that is a start. If there was any sign of
a
> > > camp, they can get some more info. I really think they will find this
> > > perpetrator. I assume Law Enforcement will check out the family and
> > > friends, but I don't see that panning out, maybe I will be wrong....
> > >
> > > -c
> >
> >
> > But would a rifle shot do enough damage to both faces/bodies that it
wasn't
> > evident to those that found them if they were male or female?
>
> or were torn off. It is in the press that they were shot, so it could
> be a high caliber handgun at close range or a rifle. I can't believe
> that someone would bring a shotgun up there.... Hopefully the
> perpetrator left shell casings..
Big handgun at close range or shotgun I could see. I just didn't think a
rifle would do enough damage to both faces to make them unrecognizable as to
the sex of the victims. That was what I was questioning. And I'm
assuming these women would have had to have been shot at close range with
either of those type weapons, both for the damage done and the obvious
precise shooting done. I mean a rifle with a long range scope on it,
wouldn't have mutilated their faces like that, would it?
td
earthage
Cyli wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:11:35 -0700, "earthage2002"
> <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> (snipped)
>
> >Why do you think he didn't hear the shots? In the quiet of the wilderness,
> >two miles is not that far away.
>
> The wilderness is not always (or even often) quiet. Sound of wind in
> the trees, trees falling over (and that's a scary sound), etc.. Then
> you have to think of the insulating properties of trees as far as
> sound is concerned. Especially evergreens. If you're in an open
> space and the sound source can get to you directly, and there's no
> wind, and the sound source is in an open space, you can hear
> astounding things at a great distance.
>
> If your friends have just turned the corner of the trail and it's
> level and thickly wooded, you may panic because you can't hear them
> any more. It's how people surprize bears to the dismay of both people
> and bears and to the occasional mauling of people.
> --
>
hear shots. But I agree that a canapy of trees does insulate noises so
that's why they may not have heard them.