Mary Winkler Granted Permanent Custody of Her Children
tiny dancer
By WOODY BAIRD - 5 hours ago
HUNTINGDON, Tenn. (AP) - A woman convicted of killing her minister husband
two years ago was granted permanent custody of their three young daughters
Friday and said she has resumed a cordial relationship with the grandparents
who fought to take the children away from her.
Mary Winkler was convicted of voluntary manslaughter in the 2006 death of
her husband Matthew, a Church of Christ minister, and is on probation for
the killing she blamed on domestic abuse.
Winkler, who spent a total of seven months in jail and a mental institution,
has had temporary custody of her daughters - ages 11, 9 and 3 - since
August.
Judge Ron Harmon of Carroll County Chancery Court returned full custody
following a brief hearing, saying he was pleased that Winkler and her former
in-laws have agreed to work together for the good of the children.
Paternal grandparents Dan and Diane Winkler of Huntingdon took temporary
custody of the children after their mother's arrest and went to court trying
to adopt them over her objections. They accused Winkler of being an unfit
mother.
After the hearing, Winkler walked across the courtroom and hugged the
grandparents.
"That was not my first time to hug them today. We've been seeing each other
regularly lately," Winkler said.
She limited her responses to yes or no to most questions from news reporters
waiting outside the courtroom but said the grandparents have visited her and
her daughters often where they live in McMinnville, about 65 miles southeast
of Nashville.
"We love each other and we're getting along," she said. "We've reconciled."
Friday's hearing was called to discuss disbursement of money in a trust fund
set up for the Winkler children by well-wishers, but Harmon spent the day
instead talking in private with Winkler and the grandparents about custody
matters.
The trust fund hearing will be held another day, the judge said. Records on
the fund are under court seal but the discussions center on how it will be
controlled. The amount of money in it has not been publicly disclosed.
Matthew Winkler, 31, was killed by a shotgun blast to the back at the
residence he shared with his wife and children in Selmer, a small West
Tennessee town about 80 miles east of Memphis.
Winkler, then 33, said she accidentally shot her husband with a shotgun she
had intended to use to scare him after a night of arguing. She told a trial
jury in Selmer that she had suffered years of emotional and physical abuse
from her husband.
She drew a three-year prison sentence but was granted probation for most of
it and was sent to a mental institution after sentencing for treatment of
post-traumatic stress disorder.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hpOa12p0_IzwbcVajZYtglTG1kHwD93A215G1
hamburger helper
"tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jt_Ak.36449$Ep1....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
Wow, his parents must be some *really* forgiving folks. Having to swallow
all their anger just to be able to see their grandkids. Unbelievable,
really.
HH
tiny dancer
"hamburger helper" <not...@nothing.com> wrote in message
news:gb311...@news3.newsguy.com...
I'm thinking more along the lines of, perhaps there was a lot more to this
case than we all know about? Maybe it wasn't as cut and dried as some would
think. I recall reading about the baby being a cause of problems with
Matthew. Something about his soffocating the babies until they'd stop
crying. The night time and morning crying bothered him. Then there were
the people, parishoners, who testified as to various physical and emotional
*injuries* to mary over the years. Couple that with the internet porn. I'm
thinking Matthew Winkler had a whole nother side to him. Not saying he
deserved killing, after all, they didn't live in Texas. ;) I believe
that's the only state that has 'deserved killin' on their statutes. But
think about it. A jury decided her case, and judges who have access to
*all* the information, sentenced her and decided the custody matters. If
there was the slightest doubt about Mary Winkler, do you really think a
judge would have given her the children back so soon?
td
>
hamburger helper
I can see that. I didn't follow this case too closely, so I really don't
know why she got off so lightly, and why *his* parents have such a cordial
relationship with her, other than to be allowed to see their grandkids. It
just struck me as odd.
HH
Poe
It's very odd. I cannot imagine entrusting children to a woman who, at
best, killed someone by mistake when trying to scare him (by shooting
him in the back while he was asleep, after reportedly cutting the phone
cord and then leaving him to die when she realized what she did, because
IIRC he didn't die immediately); or at worst, and more likely IMO,
killed him in cold blood, then bolted with the kis for a spell.
Why the grandparents forgive is probably one of those religious things,
you know, god requires you to forgive all sins, or some such.
I bet those kids end up whacked out.
d
they're afraid. Kids aren't stupid, and I'm sure they know whats
happened. How safe can they feel falling asleep in house with a
mother that killed their dad? I can only imagine the torment the kids
have to deal with, with people and kids talking about them at school
and in the neighbourhood. d
Poe
Well, I bet now when Mary says, "jump" they'll politely ask, "how
high?". I'd get the hell out of that house at my first opportunity.
Sure, I accept the marriage may not have been perfect, perhaps he was
even mean to her sometimes, idk. But shooting him in the back? That's
way too over the top, she cannot be wrapped too tight, and as such, I'd
never entrust her with children.
tiny dancer
"Poe" <hau...@terrible-thought.com> wrote in message
news:6jmsmuF...@mid.individual.net...
Like I said, I feel like there is much we don't know, evidence that wasn't
entered at trial. And perhaps evidence that *was* entered in family
court/custody hearings. Two of the children were plenty old enough to
testify at the family court hearings. Plus they would have been talked to
by psychologists and social workers, etc. Do you really think everyone is
in cahoots with Winkler? The jury, the trial court judge, the family court
judge, the clinical people both for the children's care and Mary's care?
All of them against a well-known and well-respected religious family there
in the state?
I keep thinking about Mary's description of Matthew's manner of putting a
crying baby to *sleep*, holding the baby's nose and mouth until it passed
out. I remember her saying that's what he did with their eldest child when
she was a baby, and that now, the third baby, was a crier. And that once
again, Matthew was using that method to stop the baby crying. That the very
morning she shot him, she'd told him *enough*, don't suffocate the baby, or
some such thing. Things happened in that house that we will probably never
know. But it is most likely there in the sealed family court records.
Crimes like this simply don't happen in a vacuum IMO.
td
Poe
horrible husband and/or father - we'll never know for sure. But the
actions she took are evidence of her instability. There are other less
severe steps she could have taken - leave, move in with other family, go
to a shelter, divorce, and so on. I know she was in a difficult
situation because he was a pastor, and he has some level of power in the
community. But to do what she did is just crazy, and any bad acts she
commits going forward will have been predictable. Like Andrea Yates -
there were signs that she wasn't all there. Nobody cold have predicted
exactly what she did, but she shouldn't have been left alone with
vulnerable kids in her state. Not saying Mary will go that far, but if
she cracks again under some kind of pressure, there is clear evidence
she'll do destructive things most of us wouldn't do. Like I said in
another post on this topic, if I was one of those kid I'd bolt at the
first opportunity.
tiny dancer
-----------------------------
Please, don't think I condone what she did. I don't. I simply think there
has to be good reason why those children were given back to her. What with
all the publicity, the horrendous crime, the good-standing in the community
of the elder Winklers, etc. Kind of reminds me of a couple movies I've
seen/books I've read. One was a Stephen King, with Kathy Bates, and in some
ways it reminds me a bit of Prince of Tides. Don't know why with that one,
the book I mean.
I could be wrong, but just as we all thought Lionel Tate would rear his ugly
head once again, I really doubt we will ever hear anything from Mary Winkler
again. JMO.
td
Poe
In the case of Linoel Tate, though, he was just a kid. Sure, violence as
a kid can be a great predictor of violence going forward, but otoh, kids
brains are still developing so it is a more difficult call.
I am not sure we'll hear of anything criminal from Mary - maybe, maybe
not. To me, though, it is her demonstrated, *significant* inability to
make good choices when dealing with stress that is a huge factor. Being
an adult when she killed her husband, I suspect her broken thought
process is more a persistent aspect of her personality than it might be
with a child who did the same (e.g., Tate).
I am no psychologist, but I have noticed throughout life that people
tend to follow the same behavior patterns, even when they don't work.
Someone who always plays victim, or with anger management issues, or one
who blames everyone else for the bad things in their life - there are
these sorts of behavior patterns that seem persistent no matter how hard
one tries to point them out to someone. Mary supposedly got tangled into
one of those Nigerian money scams and hid it, she shot her husband in
the back under very questionable circumstances, and who knows what else.
IMO she's too unpredictable to be put solely in charge of children.
Poe
After posting this I googled Lionel Tate to see whatever happened to
him, and it looks like he has been in some recent trouble - not murder
(that we know of), but this, from Wiki:
On May 23, 2005, Tate was charged with armed burglary with battery,
armed robbery and violation of probation, the Broward County, Florida,
Sheriff's Office said.
Tate greeted Domino's Pizza deliveryman Walter Ernest Gallardo with a
handgun outside a friend's apartment after phoning in an order. Gallardo
dropped the four pizzas and fled the scene. Tate then re-entered the
apartment, assaulting the occupant who did not want Tate inside.
Gallardo called 9-1-1 upon reaching the Domino's store and returned to
identify Tate, the sheriff's office said in a statement. No gun was
recovered.
On March 1, 2006, Tate accepted a plea bargain and was to be sentenced
to 10-30 years imprisonment in a sentencing hearing in April 2006. Tate
admitted that he had violated probation by possessing a gun during the
May 23 robbery that netted four pizzas worth $33.60, but he has refused
to answer questions about where he got and later disposed of the gun. He
was allowed to withdraw his guilty plea for robbery, but was finally
sentenced to 30 years in prison on May 18, 2006 on the gun possession
charge. That sentence was upheld October 24, 2007. On February 19, 2008,
Tate plead no contest to the pizza robbery and was sentenced to 10
years. The sentence will run concurrently with his 30 year sentence for
violating his probation. [1]
Kris Baker
>
>
> In the case of Linoel Tate, though, he was just a kid. Sure, violence as a
> kid can be a great predictor of violence going forward, but otoh, kids
> brains are still developing so it is a more difficult call.
>
> I am not sure we'll hear of anything criminal from Mary - maybe, maybe
> not. To me, though, it is her demonstrated, *significant* inability to
> make good choices when dealing with stress that is a huge factor. Being an
> adult when she killed her husband, I suspect her broken thought process is
> more a persistent aspect of her personality than it might be with a child
> who did the same (e.g., Tate).
>
> I am no psychologist, but I have noticed throughout life that people tend
> to follow the same behavior patterns, even when they don't work. Someone
> who always plays victim, or with anger management issues, or one who
> blames everyone else for the bad things in their life - there are these
> sorts of behavior patterns that seem persistent no matter how hard one
> tries to point them out to someone. Mary supposedly got tangled into one
> of those Nigerian money scams and hid it, she shot her husband in the back
> under very questionable circumstances, and who knows what else. IMO she's
> too unpredictable to be put solely in charge of children.
ITA. Mary Winkler exemplifies the "gullibles" -- people who have
no potential for logical thought, and when they get themselves into
a mess, can't think their way out of it. Or perhaps she's just not
very bright. Her life is a big "pity party" and she lashed out at
someone she could have walked away from.....but she couldn't
walk away, because she couldn't support herself.
In any case, I do not believe she should have custody of her children.
It'd be interesting to know what thought processes went into this
decision, and who was lesser than a murderess, when Mary
Winkler got the custody?
Kris
Kris Baker
He may be better off there. His mother was useless to him, let
him rum the streets, and IIRC, he has low intellectual abilities.
Kris
Poe
I thought the paternal grandparents wanted custody, and were trying to
block Mary from getting custody. I cannot imagine why a judge would
favor a murderess over reasonable, stable relatives like that. I'd love
to know the thinking behind it.
tiny dancer
IMO, this case was similar in many respects to Winklers, yet without the
protests and complete bashing of the accused that Winkler had:
http://www.volunteertv.com/home/headlines/15104651.html
Eric McLean shot and killed his wifes young/student lover in cold blood, and
just received a similar verdict. Will most likely get off with time-served,
six weeks, IIRC, or a short jail term. He has already been awarded joint
custody of his children, even before his trial.
-------------
Tenn. teacher's husband convicted in student death
By DUNCAN MANSFIELD - Sep 11, 2008
KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - A teacher's husband who was charged with murder in
the death of his wife's student lover was found guilty Thursday of a lesser
crime, which could mean little or no time in prison.
Eric McLean, 33, told jurors that he accidentally shot 18-year-old Sean
Powell on March 10, 2007. His lawyer described him as hopelessly in love
with his unfaithful wife and powerless to stop her affair.
Jurors deliberated for more than 10 hours over two days and convicted him of
reckless homicide.
"I'm just shaking," McLean said moments after the verdict was read. "I feel
hopeful, and I feel hopeful again for my children that they can have a good
life."
McLean had faced up to life in prison if convicted of first-degree murder.
Instead, reckless homicide carries a sentence of two to four years in
prison, but his attorney said he will fight for no prison time.
"The plan is that Eric will apply for probation," defense attorney Bruce
Poston said. "Remember someone still died and this man will never forget
that. He is always going to be marked."
Sentencing was scheduled for Nov. 7.
Prosecutors said it was a premeditated killing that McLean planned at least
two weeks earlier when he stole the 30-caliber rifle and three bullets from
his parents' house. McLean said he took the gun and bullets to commit
suicide.
Assistant District Attorney Bill Crabtree said he was convinced McLean
helped his case with his own testimony. McLean described the shooting as an
accident in which he aimed a high-powered rifle at Powell only to scare the
teenager, described by the defense as "mature beyond his years," and the gun
fired when Powell grabbed the barrel and McLean pulled back.
Prosecutors insisted they didn't overreach with the first-degree murder
charge.
"The proof was there, it was up to them (the jury) to make the decision,"
Crabtree said.
The families of both McLean and Powell wept at the end of the weeklong
trial.
"This is like a rebirth almost of our family - to have Eric back, to have
Eric out of this situation," said his mother, Tonya McLean. "I feel
compassion for the Powells. It has been hard on them, too."
Scarlett and Jack Powell, who took in Sean as a foster child and later
adopted him, were crushed by the verdict, Crabtree said.
"They loved this boy. He was their son and he was killed," Crabtree said.
"They just feel by this verdict the jury did not think much about the value
of Sean Powell's life."
McLean hasn't seen his young sons, Eric Jr. and Ian, since last year when
they disappeared with McLean's now ex-wife, Erin. Prosecutors said they
still don't know where Erin McLean is, but Poston vowed he will try to find
her.
Erin McLean met Powell when she was an intern teacher at his high school in
late 2006. Eric McLean became suspicious of phone calls and text messages
between the teen and his wife of 10 years. He discovered them meeting in
secret and ultimately caught them having sex.
But every time he tried to get his wife to break it off, she got mad at him
and demanded Powell be welcomed into their home, McLean testified. He said
he still loved her, so he agreed.
On the day Powell was shot to death, he had come to the McLeans' house and
Eric McLean tried to get him to leave. Powell went to his car and waited for
his English teacher to join him.
Eric McLean testified he then went to the car and the rifle accidentally
fired. McLean was arrested the next morning aimlessly walking along railroad
tracks.
His first words to the officer: "Last night was a mistake."
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i4bxJHgkjX2tS26hjBd5axR2JBLgD934Q9F03
Kris Baker
> Kris Baker wrote:
>>
>>
>> In any case, I do not believe she should have custody of her children.
>>
>> It'd be interesting to know what thought processes went into this
>> decision, and who was lesser than a murderess, when Mary
>> Winkler got the custody?
>>
>> Kris
>
>
> I thought the paternal grandparents wanted custody, and were trying to
> block Mary from getting custody. I cannot imagine why a judge would favor
> a murderess over reasonable, stable relatives like that. I'd love to know
> the thinking behind it.
Yup.
On one hand, we have the parents of the murdered father.
On the other hand, we have THE MURDERER!!!!
Insert shrieking Psycho sounds here!
I'm sure the grandparents weren't very pleased by the
murder and may have attempted to "taint" the children
against the mother.....but, it's not like they've ever
killed someone. (More Psycho shrieks)
Kris
crosem
> "Poe" <haun...@terrible-thought.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
If memory serves, the "evidence" of the husband's ill acts was only
Mary's testimony...I don't recall ANY solid evidence of his
mistreatment of anyone. She got away with coldblooded murder. The
grandparents, I think, are PRETENDING to forgive and putting on a
'cordial relationship' act in order to see their grandchildren and
protect them as best they can from their murdering mother.
Poe
Yep, ITA wrt their motivation for acting cordial to their son's murderer.
Charlie Wilkes
People say they saw Mrs. Winkler with bruises and a black eye... Mr.
Winkler is on record as having threatened to shoot the neighbor's dog. I
think the court is satisfied that this woman was responding to a real
threat to her safety as well as that of her children.
Charlie
tiny dancer
"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie...@users.easynews.com> wrote in message
news:mPydneq3xL5xQEvV...@earthlink.com...
That's right. There were a number of people who testified as to both
physical injuries on Mary and the psychological changes in her when she was
alone, compared to when Matthew was around. People who attended their
former church.
I stand by my previous comments. The judge and the psychiatric and social
workers involved with Mary & her children, obviously are satisfied that it
is in the best interest of all involved for Mary and her children to be
together. I simply can't believe that were there any doubt at all, the
paternal grandparents would have retained custody. Like I said, custody
issues are closed sessions. I would bet money there is much more to this
than we will ever know. Information that was allowed in, in the family
court case. JMO.
td
Chocolic
Agreed. He would put crying babies to sleep by smothering them??? And he
did it with all the kids??? And she stayed with him??? And she didn't
report it when it was happening??? WTF! She's just as guilty as he is in
the abuse, if it did happen. Cripes what's the matter with some of these
mothers.
Chocolic
JonesieCat
news:05d496ae-ea13-430f...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Yup.
>
> On one hand, we have the parents of the murdered father.
>
> On the other hand, we have THE MURDERER!!!!
> Insert shrieking Psycho sounds here!
>
> I'm sure the grandparents weren't very pleased by the
> murder and may have attempted to "taint" the children
> against the mother.....but, it's not like they've ever
> killed someone. (More Psycho shrieks)
>
> Kris- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
If memory serves, the "evidence" of the husband's ill acts was only
Mary's testimony...I don't recall ANY solid evidence of his
mistreatment of anyone. She got away with coldblooded murder. The
grandparents, I think, are PRETENDING to forgive and putting on a
'cordial relationship' act in order to see their grandchildren and
protect them as best they can from their murdering mother.
==========
I wish I'd have followed this case more closely. I also only recall only
Mary's assertions, and not the stuff about abuse he handed out. I'd like to
know more. But whatever the truth is about the man's murder, all that's over
and done with.
But at first glance, from what I'm reading now, I'm not convinced the
grandparents *are pretending. I'm suspecting that their own marriage,
earlier on in time, was maybe not so unlike the marriage of their (now dead)
son's and Mary's, and that they may be saying to themselves, there but for
the grace of gawd go us. And now that they have more wisdom, they can
forgive and go forward, for *all their sakes. (Or - maybe that's just
wishful thinking. But it sure does sound like there has been much vetting,
much scrutiny of all the circumstances, which makes me think justice is -
against all odds - being served in this case, *in terms of looking after the
kids*.)
Or at least a practical resolution has been reached for what remains of all
their lives at this point in time. If the children continued to want their
mother, and still want her, and she is free, and if (many many ifs, yes I
know) the judges and social workers and families etc etc are working in
concert, then I believe it best the children have their mother, since she is
available.
jc
mc...@pitt.edu
wrote:
> Woman who killed husband gets custody of daughters
One thing I will mention in everythread about this: At the time
winkler shot her husband, she had lost $17,000 to a nigerian scammer
and had most likely not told her husband. The Winklers were not rich
people.
Yes, of course, she was afraid he would be angry.
Another things I should mention more often. The dying husband was
still alive when Winkler gathered the kids and took off. I do not
know if he could have been saved.
I find the sentencing and this custody decision baffling.
Mick