13-Year-Old Boy Faces Fine for Hickey
Glek
unwilling girls during recess in fifth grade. I also got a stern lecture from
my mom. The police never got involved, though I'm sure it's recorded in my
permanent record, wherever it is.
The suspension in this case is appropiate, but the misdemeanor assault charge
seems a bit much.
Youth facing charges after hickey incident
By Paula Caballero
Star-Telegram Staff Writer
RICHLAND HILLS - A 13-year-old boy accused of giving a girl a hickey at
Richland Middle School is facing a misdemeanor assault charge, which his
parents call excessive.
School police issued the teen a citation on Sept. 26 for assault by contact
after the girl's parents reported the incident to the school, officials said.
Her family could not be reached by telephone.
The boy's mother, Patricia Singh, said her son has been punished by a three-
day suspension from school.
"Boys and girls have been doing this in middle school forever," Singh said.
"Some people should probably be behind bars if this is assault."
The teen, who is not being named by the Star-Telegram because he is a
juvenile, is expected to meet with a Richland Hills prosecutor in December.
The Singhs hope to get the charge dismissed or the fine waived. If not,
they'll try to win his case in a municipal court trial, Singh said.
Assault by contact is a Class C misdemeanor, similar to a traffic citation,
police said. The fine is $283, Singh said.
Birdville school district officials would not comment specifically on the
boy's case.
District spokesman Mark Thomas said: "Anytime anything happens on our
campuses, especially in this case where a student was ticketed for an
assault, then as a school district we take that very seriously. We moved
forward and took some disciplinary action."
The boy pleaded not guilty at his hearing Thursday in Richland Hills
Municipal Court. He told Judge Ray Oujesky that he gave the girl the hickey
but was not guilty of assault.
"He's not an angel," Singh said of her son. "But he's not a bad kid."
The boy is accused of grabbing the girl at the end of the Sept. 25 school day
and giving her a hickey, according to police reports.
In a statement, the girl wrote: "I had leaned over to get my backpack when I
stood back up he bit me on the left side of my neck and then started sucking
on the right side of my neck. I tried to get away, but he put his arms around
my backside and locked."
The boy's mother, however, said her son and the girl had been kissing and
hugging throughout the day. The boy called the girl's statement a lie.
"I did not force myself on her," he said Thursday before his hearing.
The girl told her parents about the incident later that day, and they
returned to the school, where they reported it to the school resource
officer, Richland Hills police Detective Robert Moore said.
The boy said his friends saw him and the girl kissing and hugging during the
school day. School Resource Officer Winston Humphreys said after the hearing
that he was unable to find any students or teachers to corroborate the boy's
story.
Moore said the boy has since been warned not to touch girls inappropriately,
including hugging.
The boy, who plays football and basketball, said he hasn't been in any
trouble since the hickey incident.
Singh said she understands her son needed to be punished for giving the
hickey -- she and her husband grounded him and spoke to him about appropriate
behavior with girls.
But, she said, "I don't see paying nearly $300 for a hickey. It doesn't make
sense. You have kids in Dallas schools having oral sex. This is a hickey."
Glek
Maggie
>two
>unwilling girls during recess in fifth grade. I also got a stern lecture
>from
>my mom. The police never got involved, though I'm sure it's recorded in
>my
>permanent record, wherever it is.
>The suspension in this case is appropiate, but the misdemeanor assault charge
>
>seems a bit much.
***Why? If this kid had done it to my daughter, he'd be *lucky* to get away
with just a misdemeanor assault charge--I'd do my darndest to get them to throw
in kidnapping or something like that, too. And I hope the little thug's
parents have money so that it's worthwhile to sue him, as well. I hope they
throw the book at the little lying asshole.
Maggie
"When you're arguing with a fool, make sure he isn't doing the same thing." --
author unknown
Michael Snyder
>>The only time I ever got sent to the principal's office was for kissing
>>two
>>unwilling girls during recess in fifth grade. I also got a stern lecture
>
>>from
>
>>my mom. The police never got involved, though I'm sure it's recorded in
>>my
>>permanent record, wherever it is.
>>The suspension in this case is appropiate, but the misdemeanor assault charge
>>
>>seems a bit much.
>
>
> ***Why? If this kid had done it to my daughter, he'd be *lucky* to get away
> with just a misdemeanor assault charge--I'd do my darndest to get them to throw
> in kidnapping or something like that, too. And I hope the little thug's
> parents have money so that it's worthwhile to sue him, as well. I hope they
> throw the book at the little lying asshole.
What makes you so sure he's lying? Sounds like her word against his.
Lions Girl
> The only time I ever got sent to the principal's office was for kissing
> two unwilling girls during recess in fifth grade. I also got a stern
> lecture from my mom. The police never got involved, though I'm sure it's
> recorded in my permanent record, wherever it is.
> The suspension in this case is appropiate, but the misdemeanor assault
> charge seems a bit much.
He is lucky that all he is getting is a fine. This isn't a little kiss
that you steal on the playground! The story doesn't say it, but in order
to give her a hickey he would have had to held her, kept her from running
away, for several seconds. Something like that can be really scarey!
MaryL
"Michael Snyder" <msn...@redhat.com> wrote in message
news:bope41$r24$1...@stan.redhat.com...
On the other hand, he claimed to have witnesses who saw the two of them
kissing and hugging during the school day -- but apparently was not able to
produce anyone who could verify this statement. It does sound like a "he
said/she said" incident, but I would think he could come up with at least
one credible witness if he were telling the truth about his friends who
purportedly saw previous contact.
MaryL
Michael Snyder
> Glek <gle...@email.com> wrote:
>
>>The only time I ever got sent to the principal's office was for kissing
>>two unwilling girls during recess in fifth grade. I also got a stern
>>lecture from my mom. The police never got involved, though I'm sure it's
>>recorded in my permanent record, wherever it is.
>>The suspension in this case is appropiate, but the misdemeanor assault
>>charge seems a bit much.
>
>
> He is lucky that all he is getting is a fine. This isn't a little kiss
> that you steal on the playground! The story doesn't say it, but in order
> to give her a hickey he would have had to held her, kept her from running
> away, for several seconds.
Unles, of course, he's telling the truth and she was a willing
participant. But go on and assume that the girl's version is true
and the boy is lying. Set a good example for the jurors in Colorado.
Michael Snyder
Yeah -- but there don't appear to be any witnesses to support her
version either. And it sounds like it happened in a public place...
MaryL
That's true. That's why my first reaction was to view it as "he said/she
said," with little proof either direction. But he is the one who claimed to
have a number of witnesses, and then apparently could not produce any. In
my view, that weakens his case.
MaryL
tinydancer
"Glek" <gle...@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns942FC170E...@207.69.154.205...
> The only time I ever got sent to the principal's office was for kissing
two
> unwilling girls during recess in fifth grade. I also got a stern lecture
from
> my mom. The police never got involved, though I'm sure it's recorded in my
> permanent record, wherever it is.
> The suspension in this case is appropiate, but the misdemeanor assault
charge
> seems a bit much.
I disagree, the suspension is a school punishment, the assault is a police
matter. I'd imagine the girls parents pressed charges against him. As the
parent of daughters myself, I'd have pressed charges against him too. He
has no business laying his hands on the girl, nor forcing himself on her.
He's 13 now, what do you think he might be forcing when he's 15 or 16. His
parents should consider themselves lucky they are getting an early warning.
Maybe next time he'd be up for rape.
td
Child
the
> school day. School Resource Officer Winston Humphreys said after the
hearing
> that he was unable to find any students or teachers to corroborate the
boy's
> story.
This makes me suspicious the girl was worried what her parents would think
about her hickey.
steve
Glek <gle...@email.com> wrote:
> Singh said she understands her son needed to be punished for giving the
> hickey -- she and her husband grounded him and spoke to him about appropriate
> behavior with girls.
>
> But, she said, "I don't see paying nearly $300 for a hickey. It doesn't make
> sense. You have kids in Dallas schools having oral sex. This is a hickey."
DUH!! The oral sex is CONSENSUAL. This complaint is that the kid
allegedly just walked up and bit her
Glek
news:20031110190928...@mb-m21.aol.com:
I am very happy you weren't one of the parents of those girls I grabbed and
kissed back in 1961, or I would have wound up doing hard time in juvie.
Fortunately my mom had no money, so we would not have had to worry about
being sued. Given the tenor of the times, I am not surprised that this kid
would face such a charge today, though most times I do think that extralegal
means work best to correct a youngster's behavior. The parents did have a
talk about what is appropiate behavior with girls, and the school did as
well. I certainly hope he had to apologize to the girl. The court appearance
would emphasize what he had heard from his parents and the school, but in
most cases with most kids it is just piling on. Still, it wouldn't do him any
harm to appear before the court, provided that he did give her that hickey
without her consent. I imagine this could lead to a trial, as the boy's
mother threatened. During the course of the trial it may turn that this was
a consensual act after all. For all we know the girl may have told the story
she did because she didn't want to get in trouble for letting a boy give her
a hickey. Though the fact that no witnesses were found to colloborate the
boy's claim does make his defense shaky, I wonder whether any colloborating
witnesses will be found for the trial.
BTW: Since he is going to court anyways, I think a requirement to perform
community service of some sort would be more effective than having his
parents pay a fine.
Glek
news:20031110202733.501$u...@newsreader.com:
> Glek <gle...@email.com> wrote:
>> The only time I ever got sent to the principal's office was for kissing
>> two unwilling girls during recess in fifth grade. I also got a stern
>> lecture from my mom. The police never got involved, though I'm sure it's
>> recorded in my permanent record, wherever it is.
>> The suspension in this case is appropiate, but the misdemeanor assault
>> charge seems a bit much.
>
> He is lucky that all he is getting is a fine. This isn't a little kiss
> that you steal on the playground! The story doesn't say it, but in order
> to give her a hickey he would have had to held her, kept her from running
> away, for several seconds. Something like that can be really scarey!
Then the girls I held for several seconds to give them a kiss were scared as
well, and afterwards, when my wrongdoing was explained, I felt very ashamed.
Had I known about hickies back then, I may have attempted to give one to one
of the girls. Fortunately I was not one of those kids who is immured to
lectures and tonguelashings when I did wrong. I apologized to both girls and
never touched any girl again without their consent. I would hope that most
boys, including this one, would have the same reaction.
Glek
news:jXXrb.84346$un.5...@bignews6.bellsouth.net:
>
> "Glek" <gle...@email.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns942FC170E...@207.69.154.205...
>> The only time I ever got sent to the principal's office was for kissing
> two
>> unwilling girls during recess in fifth grade. I also got a stern lecture
> from
>> my mom. The police never got involved, though I'm sure it's recorded in my
>> permanent record, wherever it is.
>> The suspension in this case is appropiate, but the misdemeanor assault
> charge
>> seems a bit much.
>
>
> I disagree, the suspension is a school punishment, the assault is a police
> matter. I'd imagine the girls parents pressed charges against him. As the
> parent of daughters myself, I'd have pressed charges against him too. He
> has no business laying his hands on the girl, nor forcing himself on her.
> He's 13 now, what do you think he might be forcing when he's 15 or 16. His
> parents should consider themselves lucky they are getting an early warning.
> Maybe next time he'd be up for rape.
>
> td
Considering the ages and no indication of previous wrongdoing by this boy I
think it's more of a parental matter than a police matter at this point. If
the punishment and the warning and explanation by his parents aren't enough
to keep him from becoming a rapist at the age of 15 or 16, I doubt that
having his parents begrudgingly pay a fine will do anything to prevent his
progression, or rather degradation. Most boys who behave this way do not go
on to become rapists, especially once they realize how wrong this behavior
is, which can be conveyed by a good lecture and loss of privileges as
effectively as facing court, probably more effectively in fact. I had no
business laying hands on the girls I kissed, and though a hickey is more
serious than a mere kiss, I do think--for most boys--making them aware of how
their actions affect other people is more effective than sitting in a
courtroom with lawyers talking above your head and then maybe your parents
paying a fine. I did not even need to see the principal to have the wrongness
of my actions conveyed to me. My mother and sisters made sure I understood.
If most boys cannot be made to understand this without going through the
courts, then we as a species are in grave trouble.
I also think that since he is going to court anyways, having him perform some
type of community service if he is adjudged guilty would be a more appropiate
punishment than having his parents pay a fine.
I won't even get into the "he said, she said" aspect of this (unless you want
to. Martha was right; it is fun to disagree.)
Maggie
***How could there be any witnesses to her version? She said there was no
hugging and kissing and the resource officer could find no one who saw any
hugging and kissing. Listen, if it turns out the girl made up the story, I'll
take it all back, but I think this kind of thing happens to middle school girls
all the time in one form or another. In fact, there was a letter to an advice
columnist in my local paper today (it's syndicated--Dear Annie is the name, I
think) about that very problem--boys grabbing at girls in hallways at middle
school. And the facts seem to support this girl's story. She reported the
assault immediately (and forget that her-parents-found-the-hickey thing. Girls
have been successfully hiding hickeys from parents for decades.) and the boy
apparently lied about previous contact with her. The boy's mother's statement
about her son not being in any trouble "since" the assault tells me that he was
almost certainly in trouble *before* the assault (otherwise, wouldn't she have
said that the hickey incident was the *only* trouble he'd been in all year?).
And the fact that mom's not screaming that the hickey was consensual tells me
she knows it wasn't.
I hope we'll hear more about this one.
Maggie
>"Glek" <gle...@email.com> wrote in message
>> The boy said his friends saw him and the girl kissing and hugging during
>the
>> school day. School Resource Officer Winston Humphreys said after the
>hearing
>> that he was unable to find any students or teachers to corroborate the
>boy's
>> story.
>
>This makes me suspicious the girl was worried what her parents would think
>about her hickey.
***Why?
tinydancer
I don't know Glek, I think things have changed quite a bit since we were
kids. I'm visualizing the stolen kisses on the playground a bit differently
than what I'm picturing this incident to be. For one thing, kids are a lot
more sexually aware at earlier ages then we were. I read this kid plays on
the football and basketball teams at school. I'd guess he's quite aware
already that what he alledgedly did was wrong and doesn't need a parent to
point that out to him. Sometimes more serious consequences leave a more
lasting impression. As someone else said, giving a hickey takes a bit more
effort than stealing a kiss. There are some things, when my girls were
young, that got off with a good talking to and a warning, etc. This one
doesn't 'feel' like that type of situation. And I admit, I'm going on
'feeling' here. He wasn't able to produce any witnesses to what he claimed.
I've been involved in similar situations, both as the girl and as the
mother, so maybe I'm just too close to have an opinion, but both times I
know what happened. As the girl on the 'receiving end' and as the mother of
a daughter. Both times were quite traumatic to say the least.
I couldn't care less about the fine, but finding out how the legal process
works just might not be a bad idea for this kid. I'd rather have my son
find out what it feels like going to court on a misdemeanor than a felony
charge.
td
Robert Lee
news:20031110190928...@mb-m21.aol.com:
> ***Why? If this kid had done it to my daughter, he'd be *lucky* to
> get away with just a misdemeanor assault charge--I'd do my darndest to
> get them to throw in kidnapping or something like that, too.
Hell, why not just shoot him?
--
--Robert
there is a light and it never goes out
Robert Lee
> He is lucky that all he is getting is a fine. This isn't a little kiss
> that you steal on the playground! The story doesn't say it, but in order
> to give her a hickey he would have had to held her, kept her from running
> away, for several seconds. Something like that can be really scarey!
>
Yeah, in an entirely different context, sure, it could be really scary. As
the events stand, I don't believe this was anything more than "icky."
Criminal charges are fucking absurd.
Robert Lee
@bignews6.bellsouth.net:
> As the
> parent of daughters myself, I'd have pressed charges against him too.
I have a daughter and I wouldn't. As a matter of fact, if called into
school on this very case, I'd laugh hard if the administration suggested
such a thing, and then start getting increasingly angry if it looked like
they might even be thinking about pursuing charges without my help or
request. At that point, I'd probaably contact the boy's parents and offer
*them* assistance, frankly.
But then, I'm not a hysterical freak, either.
Robert Lee
news:n1_rb.86009$un.7...@bignews6.bellsouth.net:
>
> I don't know Glek, I think things have changed quite a bit since we
> were kids. I'm visualizing the stolen kisses on the playground a bit
> differently than what I'm picturing this incident to be.
No, they're exactly the same. The problem is that you're picturing them
differently.
Robert Lee
news:vr0hma3...@corp.supernews.com:
> That's true. That's why my first reaction was to view it as "he said/she
> said," with little proof either direction.
I can't believe we're discussing what ought to have been a run-of-the-mill
principal's office case on a Usenet group dedicated to national and
international crimes.
Robert Lee
@bignews6.bellsouth.net:
> Maybe next time he'd be up for rape.
Hell, while we're wildly speculating, maybe when he's fifteen he'll be up
for *genocide.*
Chocolic
"tinydancer" <tinyd...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jXXrb.84346$un.5...@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
I totally agree with you.
Chocolic
Chocolic
plain and simple and he should be punished. It's isn't a matter of a
little boy sneaking a kiss on a girl's cheek. This kid attacked her IMO
and forced a hicky on her FGS, he marked her. He needs to be taught that
what he did is not only inappropriate, it is immoral and illegal and
assault.
Chocolic <mother of daughters
Chocolic
"Robert Lee" <cranch...@snippitydoodah.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns942FDAE0197C6cr...@207.69.154.205...
daughter and force a hickey on her. I think that is sick. It is a
violation of your daughter that you are taking so lightly and that would be
wrong wrong wrong. And your daughter, who obviously would have been
traumatized or she wouldn't have reported it, would even be more
traumatized to have her own father take it with a grain of salt. A
violation times two. On the boy's part, it was sexual, otherwise why would
he have forced that on her. He needs to be taught that is wrong, now,
before he goes on to further violations. I cannot believe you would say
that.
Chocolic
Chocolic
> "tinydancer" <tinyd...@nospam.com> wrote in news:jXXrb.84346$un.53894
> @bignews6.bellsouth.net:
>
> > Maybe next time he'd be up for rape.
>
> Hell, while we're wildly speculating, maybe when he's fifteen he'll be up
> for *genocide.*
>
> --
> --Robert
>
something big happens and you just plain had no idea.????? This kid was
obviously wrong and should be punished before he goes on to bigger things.
Why do you have a hard time with that? Is it because you don't ever have
to worry about yourself getting a hickey forced on you? Gr-r-r-r-r
Chocolic
CC Bailey
> I have a daughter and I wouldn't. As a matter of fact, if called into
> school on this very case, I'd laugh hard if the administration suggested
> such a thing, and then start getting increasingly angry if it looked like
> they might even be thinking about pursuing charges without my help or
> request. At that point, I'd probaably contact the boy's parents and offer
> *them* assistance, frankly.
>
> But then, I'm not a hysterical freak, either.
>
Just curious, but what would you do if he had grabbed her breast or
grabbed her crotch? It's an unwelcome attack.
Karen
> "tinydancer" <tinyd...@nospam.com> wrote in news:jXXrb.84346$un.53894
> @bignews6.bellsouth.net:
>
>
>>As the
>>parent of daughters myself, I'd have pressed charges against him too.
>
>
> I have a daughter and I wouldn't. As a matter of fact, if called into
> school on this very case, I'd laugh hard if the administration suggested
> such a thing, and then start getting increasingly angry if it looked like
> they might even be thinking about pursuing charges without my help or
> request. At that point, I'd probaably contact the boy's parents and offer
> *them* assistance, frankly.
What if the bruise inflicted on your daughter was the result of being
struck by a boy instead of a hickey? If my daughter was struck and
bruised intentionally by any other child you'd better believe I'd be all
over those parents and would consider filing charges. It seems to me
there's less similarity between an unwanted hickey and a "stolen kiss"
than there is between an unwanted hickey and being struck and bruised.
Karen E.
--
_______________________________________
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example"
Mark Twain, 'Puddn'head Wilson'
Lions Girl
Did you see the interview on the Today Show? He said that she was upset
and didn't like it. So does that sound like she was a willing participant?
Lions Girl
Because the cop couldn't find someone to back up the boy's story that it
was consentual you are suspicious that the girl is lying???
Lions Girl
So you think that a fine is the same thing as "hard time in juvi"?
> Fortunately my mom had no money, so we would not have had to worry
> about being sued.
Did you see the interview on the Today Show? This family has no money,
either.
> Given the tenor of the times, I am not surprised that
> this kid would face such a charge today, though most times I do think
> that extralegal means work best to correct a youngster's behavior. The
> parents did have a talk about what is appropiate behavior with girls, and
> the school did as well. I certainly hope he had to apologize to the girl.
If you saw the interview you wouldn't have gotten the feeling that the mom
thought that any of this was wrong.
> The court appearance would emphasize what he had heard from his parents
> and the school, but in most cases with most kids it is just piling on.
> Still, it wouldn't do him any harm to appear before the court, provided
> that he did give her that hickey without her consent. I imagine this
> could lead to a trial, as the boy's mother threatened. During the course
> of the trial it may turn that this was a consensual act after all. For
> all we know the girl may have told the story she did because she didn't
> want to get in trouble for letting a boy give her a hickey. Though the
> fact that no witnesses were found to colloborate the boy's claim does
> make his defense shaky, I wonder whether any colloborating witnesses will
> be found for the trial. BTW: Since he is going to court anyways, I think
> a requirement to perform
> community service of some sort would be more effective than having his
> parents pay a fine.
I agree with this. Making the mom pay a fine is just going to get the mom
to pass on her anger at the court system. Maybe he could take some
responsibility, himself, if HE had to do something.
Lions Girl
> lionsg...@hotmail.com (Lions Girl) wrote in
> news:20031110202733.501$u...@newsreader.com:
>
> > Glek <gle...@email.com> wrote:
> >> The only time I ever got sent to the principal's office was for
> >> kissing two unwilling girls during recess in fifth grade. I also got a
> >> stern lecture from my mom. The police never got involved, though I'm
> >> sure it's recorded in my permanent record, wherever it is.
> >> The suspension in this case is appropiate, but the misdemeanor assault
> >> charge seems a bit much.
> >
> > He is lucky that all he is getting is a fine. This isn't a little kiss
> > that you steal on the playground! The story doesn't say it, but in
> > order to give her a hickey he would have had to held her, kept her from
> > running away, for several seconds. Something like that can be really
> > scarey!
>
> Then the girls I held for several seconds to give them a kiss were scared
> as well, and afterwards, when my wrongdoing was explained, I felt very
> ashamed. Had I known about hickies back then, I may have attempted to
> give one to one of the girls. Fortunately I was not one of those kids who
> is immured to lectures and tonguelashings when I did wrong. I apologized
> to both girls and never touched any girl again without their consent. I
> would hope that most boys, including this one, would have the same
> reaction.
Society, today, isn't going to put up with people forcing sexual advances
on others. It just isn't "boys will be boys" anymore. When you assualt
someone it is assault, not cute.
I don't know this kid, but the feeling I got from watching his interview
was that he felt he was totally the victim and his mother was totally
promoting that.
tinydancer
"Lions Girl" <lionsg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:20031111141111.695$d...@newsreader.com...
All the more reason that he be prosecuted, as it doesn't seem his parents
are going to be the ones teaching him this isn't acceptable behavior. Too
bad for the kid, as I see more serious problems in his future as long as his
parents don't acknowledge his responsibility and instill a sense of right
and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable behavior in him now.
td
Glek
> Glek <gle...@email.com> wrote:
>> maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie) wrote in
>> news:20031110190928...@mb-m21.aol.com:
>>
>> >>The only time I ever got sent to the principal's office was for kissing
>> >>two
>> >>unwilling girls during recess in fifth grade. I also got a stern
>> >>lecture from
>> >>my mom. The police never got involved, though I'm sure it's recorded in
>> >>my
>> >>permanent record, wherever it is.
>> >>The suspension in this case is appropiate, but the misdemeanor assault
>> >>charge
>> >>
>> >>seems a bit much.
>> >
>> > ***Why? If this kid had done it to my daughter, he'd be *lucky* to get
>> > away with just a misdemeanor assault charge--I'd do my darndest to get
>> > them to throw in kidnapping or something like that, too. And I hope
>> > the little thug's parents have money so that it's worthwhile to sue
>> > him, as well. I hope they throw the book at the little lying asshole.
<snip>
>> I am very happy you weren't one of the parents of those girls I grabbed
>> and kissed back in 1961, or I would have wound up doing hard time in
>> juvie.
>
> So you think that a fine is the same thing as "hard time in juvi"?
No, Maggie said she would do what she could to have kidnapping charges
brought against the kid. A conviction in kidnapping would probably mean
incarceration. That is what I was referring to.
>> Fortunately my mom had no money, so we would not have had to worry
>> about being sued.
>
> Did you see the interview on the Today Show? This family has no money,
> either.
I did not see that interview. I hope the Today website will eventually have
the transcript for I am curious what was said. I'm watching The Abrams report
tonight on the chance it may be mentioned. Thanks for the info.
Glek
I agree. Forcing a hickey on a girl is not something to be winked at. I was
just questioning whether this should rise to the level of criminal assault
and whether it should be handled in the courts as opposed to using other
avenues. I still have doubts, but obviously there are many who have none.
That Maggie, Tiny and Chocolic should agree on anything says something right
there. I don't have children of my own, and had this happened to my daughter
I may feel differently.
This ongoing discussion has certainly given me food for thought, which is a
great function of Usenet.
> I don't know this kid, but the feeling I got from watching his interview
> was that he felt he was totally the victim and his mother was totally
> promoting that.
I hope to get the chance to see the interview myself or at least read a
transcript or a good summary of all that was said.
Child
"CC Bailey" <ccbailey...@kiva.net> wrote in message
news:boqlfe$1gsnaa$2...@ID-210502.news.uni-berlin.de...
I have had my chest grabbed in high school. I handled it fiine, without the
help of school disciplinarians or the police, thanks.
Maggie
>news:boqlfe$1gsnaa$2...@ID-210502.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> Robert Lee wrote:
>>
>> > I have a daughter and I wouldn't. As a matter of fact, if called into
>> > school on this very case, I'd laugh hard if the administration suggested
>> > such a thing, and then start getting increasingly angry if it looked
>like
>> > they might even be thinking about pursuing charges without my help or
>> > request. At that point, I'd probaably contact the boy's parents and
>offer
>> > *them* assistance, frankly.
>> >
>> > But then, I'm not a hysterical freak, either.
>> >
>>
>> Just curious, but what would you do if he had grabbed her breast or
>> grabbed her crotch? It's an unwelcome attack.
>
>I have had my chest grabbed in high school. I handled it fiine, without
>the
>help of school disciplinarians or the police, thanks.
***Out of curiousity, how did you deal with it?
EndlsRayne
>I have a daughter and I wouldn't. As a matter of fact, if called into
>school on this very case, I'd laugh hard if the administration suggested
>such a thing, and then start getting increasingly angry if it looked like
>they might even be thinking about pursuing charges without my help or
>request.
I don't think the punishment for this should be any more, or less, then the
school gives for fighting.
Child
news:20031112105910...@mb-m13.aol.com:
I threatened the boy with violence, really loudly.
In any case, I certainly feel a boy who does such a thing deserves
discipline from the school and from his parents. The police is a bit
much.
--
BethF, Anchorage, AK
It's YOUR God.
They are YOUR rules.
YOU burn in hell.
Child
news:OZ2sb.235128$0v4.16...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
Did Robert say this kid shouldn't be punished?
I dont' think so.
Maggie
>news:20031112105910...@mb-m13.aol.com:
>
>>>"CC Bailey" <ccbailey...@kiva.net> wrote in message
>>>news:boqlfe$1gsnaa$2...@ID-210502.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>>> Robert Lee wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I have a daughter and I wouldn't. As a matter of fact, if called
>>>> > into school on this very case, I'd laugh hard if the
>>>> > administration suggested such a thing, and then start getting
>>>> > increasingly angry if it looked
>>>like
>>>> > they might even be thinking about pursuing charges without my help
>>>> > or request. At that point, I'd probaably contact the boy's parents
>>>> > and
>>>offer
>>>> > *them* assistance, frankly.
>>>> >
>>>> > But then, I'm not a hysterical freak, either.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Just curious, but what would you do if he had grabbed her breast or
>>>> grabbed her crotch? It's an unwelcome attack.
>>>
>> beth said:
>>>I have had my chest grabbed in high school. I handled it fiine,
>>>without the
>>>help of school disciplinarians or the police, thanks.
>>
>> ***Out of curiousity, how did you deal with it?
beth said:
>I threatened the boy with violence, really loudly.
>
>In any case, I certainly feel a boy who does such a thing deserves
>discipline from the school and from his parents. The police is a bit
>much.
>
***Well, I think you handled your grope very well, but I'd be surprised if most
young teens would have the confidence to do what you did.
And I know many people will disagree, but I consider the hickey to be a much
greater intrusion and a more egregious assault than a grope. It's the
necessary restraining that's involved that troubles me as much as the
"marking."
Robert Lee
$0v4.16...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
> O-M-G Robert. I can't believe you would allow some kid to attack your
> daughter and force a hickey on her. I think that is sick.
Another kid made my daughter eat dog poop once, and I didn't have *him*
charged with assault. I think on the sick scale, that's got to be a few
thousand levels above a hickey.
For me, this just comes down to age and severity. I have made it clear in
the past that I don't buy the girly "all unwanted sexual activity is the
same thing, and it's all rape" line in the past.
Pardon me for seeing this as of a piece with six-year-old boys being
suspended for stealing kisses, but it is.
Obviously, this kid isn't six, and I don't hold six-year-olds and
thirteen-year-olds to the same standards. (Even if I did I'd be better,
though, than some feminists who insist that boys barely out of
toddlerhood ought to be held to the same standards as adult men.)
I think we can assume, given his behavior, that we're not dealing with a
particularly mature thirteen-year-old. Which means he's still figuring
out how to get past all the "walk up and sock 'em in the arm if you like
'em" stuff from grade school, because it has suddenly and forcefully
dawned on him that this is never going to get him laid.
In other words, much as some people would like to make this kid an adult
in their heads for this specific purpose, he's still a little kid.
Yes, what he did was wrong on a level it wouldn't have been for a six-
year-old. Yes, he needed to be punished hard enough to make an
impression. No, this didn't need to go to the justice system.
Think back, ladies, to every horrible thing you did to another girl when
you were around this same age--and I know you did them, so don't bother
protesting. I'm not talking about the run-of-the-mill mean stuff anybody
does, I'm talking about cruel behavior that borders on the psychotic--the
kind of thing that still makes you cringe when you're trying to go to
sleep and you remember.
Now, did you ever get caught? Do you honestly think it would have been
better if you'd been arrested for it, rather than punished in school and
at home? Following your not being arrested and given a criminal record
(because I also know you weren't), did you go on to commit more and more
vicious assaults, or did you grow out of the behavior, then or later?
Assuming this kid is on his way to being a rapist because he gave a girl
a forcible hickey is...really, beyond moronic.
Robert Lee
@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
> Ignore the small warnings then whine when
> something big happens and you just plain had no idea.??
No. I just look for actual "small warnings," rather than anything I think
might fit based on my moods.
If this kid has demonstrated any of the early-life indicators of a sexual
predator, we don't know about it since all we've read is this sketchy
article. Assuming he has says a lot about the commentator, I think.
Robert Lee
news:Xns943174A083716be...@216.168.3.44:
> Did Robert say this kid shouldn't be punished?
>
Good god, no. He should have gotten at least a week out of school, and one
would hope that his parents would take this seriously enough to make sure
that was a not-fun week that stayed in memory for a good long time.
And then he should have been forced to apologize to everybody involved when
he returned. Which is much worse than that week off, and much more
effective than a fucking criminal charge. (The only thing the kid's going
to learn from that is "The system is stupid and arbitrary," which isn't a
great lesson if you're trying to thwart criminal behavior.)
Robert Lee
210502.news.uni-berlin.de:
>
> Just curious, but what would you do if he had grabbed her breast or
> grabbed her crotch?
I dunno. I don't know what I would have done if he'd punched her in the
head, either. He didn't.
Robert Lee
@corp.supernews.com:
>
> I have had my chest grabbed in high school.
You brave, brave rape survivor.
Robert Lee
news:20031112155319...@mb-m17.aol.com:
> ***Well, I think you handled your grope very well, but I'd be
> surprised if most young teens would have the confidence to do what you
> did.
Obviously, I don't have tits, but I have been around my fair share of tit-
grabbing incidents in my youth, and...pretty much all of them went like
this, with the girl involved yelling down the guy, usually with her friends
helping.
I'd be surprised if teen girls who are unable to react like this *get*
their tits grabbed very often, frankly.
Robert Lee
> What if the bruise inflicted on your daughter was the result of being
> struck by a boy instead of a hickey?
Again, it wasn't, but, you know, what if was caused by a piece of a
metorite that crashed into the classroom and the radioactivity gave my
daughter super powers? That'd be cool.
Robert Lee
207.69.154.206:
> A conviction in kidnapping would probably mean
> incarceration. That is what I was referring to.
You also probably wouldn't be in "juvie," since you'd inevitably be
charged as an adult were the charge increased to kidnapping. And...this
being Texas , after all, let's see about that charge at an adult felony
level...
Ah, never mind. I guess the hysteroids are right about this one: there's
nothing absurd in having this kid face the death penalty for being thirteen
and acting like an asshole.
Robert Lee
news:20031112110449...@mb-m25.aol.com:
> I don't think the punishment for this should be any more, or less,
> then the
> school gives for fighting.
>
Yeah, agreed, since we're all equal and shit.
Maggie
>news:20031112155319...@mb-m17.aol.com:
>
>> ***Well, I think you handled your grope very well, but I'd be
>> surprised if most young teens would have the confidence to do what you
>> did.
>
>Obviously, I don't have tits, but I have been around my fair share of tit-
>grabbing incidents in my youth, and...pretty much all of them went like
>
>this, with the girl involved yelling down the guy, usually with her friends
>
>helping.
>
>I'd be surprised if teen girls who are unable to react like this *get*
>their tits grabbed very often, frankly.
***Hmmmmm. I would guess it's exactly the opposite. In fact, I'd be really,
really surprised if teen boys grab only the spunky girls' breasts. I suspect
it's the size of those breasts that excite the interest and, the boys not being
total nincompoops, the less likely the girl is to object, the more likely the
boy is to grab.
Child
> "Child" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote in news:vr3go3fabvu215
> @corp.supernews.com:
>
>>
>> I have had my chest grabbed in high school.
>
> You brave, brave rape survivor.
You shoulda been there when i got my crotch groped at Chilkoot Charlies a
couple of years ago. It was during my kickboxing state. Was not one of my
more helpless moments.
Child
news:20031112155319...@mb-m17.aol.com:
> ***Well, I think you handled your grope very well, but I'd be
> surprised if most young teens would have the confidence to do what you
> did.
My mother raised me to be no ones victim. Had I gone home crying about a
grope she would have looked at me pretty funny.
> And I know many people will disagree, but I consider the hickey to be
> a much greater intrusion and a more egregious assault than a grope.
> It's the necessary restraining that's involved that troubles me as
> much as the "marking."
Perhaps thats the fundamental disagreement - that we consider the offense
to be of a completely different magnitude.
d~
<cranch...@snippitydoodah.earthlink.net> wrote:
>"tinydancer" <tinyd...@nospam.com> wrote in
>news:n1_rb.86009$un.7...@bignews6.bellsouth.net:
>
>>
>> I don't know Glek, I think things have changed quite a bit since we
>> were kids. I'm visualizing the stolen kisses on the playground a bit
>> differently than what I'm picturing this incident to be.
>
>No, they're exactly the same. The problem is that you're picturing them
>differently.
I've had guys steal kisses before and while it can be upsetting this
kid (reportedly) grabbed her, *bit* her and held her while he hickeyed
her.
that's assault.
d~
Michael Snyder
Well, maybe they should get some. Their parents' generation did.
I think any high school girl in the 1950's would have been prepared
to deal with something like that, probably exactly as Beth did.
> And I know many people will disagree, but I consider the hickey to be a much
> greater intrusion and a more egregious assault than a grope. It's the
> necessary restraining that's involved that troubles me as much as the
> "marking."
Always assuming that the girl didn't cooperate (as he says she did)...
Michael Snyder
Unles he's telling the truth and she's not...
Robert Lee
news:20031112172151...@mb-m17.aol.com:
> ***Hmmmmm. I would guess it's exactly the opposite. In fact, I'd be
> really, really surprised if teen boys grab only the spunky girls'
> breasts. I suspect it's the size of those breasts that excite the
> interest and, the boys not being total nincompoops, the less likely
> the girl is to object, the more likely the boy is to grab.
The problem is that this has to happen in a context in which (a) the two
are in close proximity and (b) adult supervision is minimal and (c)
something compels the male to grab for tit and (d) tit-grabbing was not
invited or wanted by the female. Unfortunately, all the possible situations
fitting these parameters involving severly introverted teen girls are
creepy and wrong and potentially criminal, far outside of the mere boobie-
pinch.
Maggie
***Yes. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I understand that hallways
between classes are prime territories for these quick-grabs.
Robert Lee
news:od75rvcst93165rji...@4ax.com:
> I've had guys steal kisses before and while it can be upsetting this
> kid (reportedly) grabbed her, *bit* her and held her while he hickeyed
> her.
>
> that's assault.
Yeah, I guess.
My parents rent an apartment to some assholes who regularly call the cops
on *toddlers* who don't play nicely with their four-year-old daughter.
They call the cops if a little kid rides off on their kid's tricycle and
try to charge theft, I'm not kidding. (And all of this, mind you, is
happening right in front of them and the other kid's parents--rather than
allowing the other set of parents to step in and take charge of their
kid, they immediately start screaming at the other parents and call the
police.)
They tried to charge a three-year-old who pushed their kid down with
assault last summer, and actually succeeded in getting the cops to ticket
that kid's parents for misdemeanor negligence. (Again, this all happened
on the sidewalk while both sets of parents sat on their porches, the
other kids' parents moved in as soon as this happened and took their kid
away to discipline him and then kept him away from the ranting crazy
people next door, presumably forever after that evening, there was no
"negligence" whatsoever. Plus, I do know their landlord, and they're a
decent family and great tenants. However, the psychos next door are white
trash psychos and the nice family is Hispanic, and people really don't
like "Mexicans" in that part of Oregon, so...don't be a Hispanic parent
out there, or you're getting a ticket, buddy.)
I keep thinking about them as I read this thread. This is not a good
thing.
Robert Lee
news:20031112202026...@mb-m21.aol.com:
> ***Yes. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I understand that
> hallways between classes are prime territories for these quick-grabs.
I was thinking more of a "trapped in a closet" situation, but yeah, I'd
forgotten about the hall thing.
I...just don't think that's a criminal offense. A serious infraction for
an apprentice grownup? Sure. Any boy caught doing shit like that needs to
be drilled on why that wasn't funny or appreciated and how it doesn't
matter what fucking inadequacies on his part compelled him to do it,
because nobody cares about your personal shit in real life if it makes
you act *that* weird. He needs have it made clear how that affected the
girl he grabbed.
I just don't see the point in starting a system record on that guy, and
making him familiar with police and courts and potentially jail, unless
you're trying to force people into becoming actual criminals. If he
persists in the same behavior and obviously won't change...yeah, then you
go for more serious measures.
Maggie
>news:20031112202026...@mb-m21.aol.com:
>
>> ***Yes. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I understand that
>> hallways between classes are prime territories for these quick-grabs.
>
>I was thinking more of a "trapped in a closet" situation, but yeah, I'd
>
>forgotten about the hall thing.
>
>I...just don't think that's a criminal offense. A serious infraction for
>
>an apprentice grownup? Sure. Any boy caught doing shit like that needs to
>
>be drilled on why that wasn't funny or appreciated and how it doesn't
>matter what fucking inadequacies on his part compelled him to do it,
>because nobody cares about your personal shit in real life if it makes
>you act *that* weird. He needs have it made clear how that affected the
>
>girl he grabbed.
>
>I just don't see the point in starting a system record on that guy, and
>
>making him familiar with police and courts and potentially jail, unless
>
>you're trying to force people into becoming actual criminals. If he
>persists in the same behavior and obviously won't change...yeah, then you
>
>go for more serious measures.
***Well, I *am* the one who said that I find the hickey thing more serious
than these hallway gropes, so I'd tend to agree with you about the appropriate
response to a quick-grab. I still think the hickey thing, involving an athlete
(football and basketball player, I believe the article said, so I'm thinking he
easily overpowered her) physically restraining a young girl and "marking" her
is much more ominous and creepy and, yeah, criminal. I'm not saying I want to
throw this kid in jail, but I think he should fully realize that what he's done
is assault someone and when he does that, he subjects himself to the criminal
justice system.
Robert Lee
news:3Qasb.1762$k77....@bignews5.bellsouth.net:
> All the more reason that he be prosecuted, as it doesn't seem his
> parents are going to be the ones teaching him this isn't acceptable
> behavior.
And you know this...how?
I mean, seriously--these people are on television this week arguing that
the kid shouldn't have gotten charged with a crime over this. They
aren't arguing that he shouldn't have gotten in any trouble, or did
nothing wrong, simply that the level of punishment was unusual and
unwarranted.
How, exactly, do you derive from this the notion that "neither of them
thinks he did anything wrong?" And how on *earth* do you take that a big
step further and decide that you know that the kids' parents aren't
teaching him anything about his initial behavior because they object to
what they see as a draconian over reaction by school officials and law
enforcement?
I mean, you can disagree with them about that, but do you have to turn
them into monsters over it? Neither you nor anybody else here knows what
kind of punishment that kid got at home in addition to school
discipline, and none of us knows anything about that mother.
Please, if the mother or kid gives an interview saying "Eh, he didn't
really do anything wrong, anyway," and I'll join you in despising the
kids' parents. Forgive me if I'd like something to despise first,
though. I'm much less promiscuous where my hatred is concerned than my
love. I dunno...it's just not special anymore, the hate, when you hand
it around that freely. I think when two people decide to hate each
other, or one person decides to hate a largely imaginary public figure
she'll never meet, there should be a real bond there--otherwise it's
cheap and tawdry, and eventually you lose your capacity to hate. I'd
rather hate deeply and truly and forever than capriciously and often. I
realize that may make me sound like an old-fashioned girl, but I guess
that's what I am.
(BTW, I am available for a series of motivational speeches on the topic
"Hate: It's Great if you Wait!" aimed at junior high audiences. If you
haven't heard about the Hate Abstinence movement, I can point you to
some web sites.)
Robert Lee
news:20031112204100...@mb-m21.aol.com:
> I still think the hickey thing, involving an athlete
> (football and basketball player, I believe the article said, so I'm
> thinking he easily overpowered her) physically restraining a young
> girl and "marking" her is much more ominous and creepy and, yeah,
> criminal.
Are you sure you aren't biased because the kid's a jock? I mean, I'm a
grown nerdling, and can totally sympathize with the bias, but I recognize
that it is one.
Maggie, if everybody involved was even three years older, yeah, I'd say
charge the kid with assault. They're not, though, and they're still little
kids with some shit to work out, much as all thirteen year olds would
loathe me for saying that.
Maggie
>news:20031112204100...@mb-m21.aol.com:
>
>> I still think the hickey thing, involving an athlete
>> (football and basketball player, I believe the article said, so I'm
>> thinking he easily overpowered her) physically restraining a young
>> girl and "marking" her is much more ominous and creepy and, yeah,
>> criminal.
>
>Are you sure you aren't biased because the kid's a jock? I mean, I'm a
>grown nerdling, and can totally sympathize with the bias, but I recognize
>
>that it is one.
***No bias at all--I married a jock, as a matter of fact.
The only reason I mentioned it is because it implies that the boy had a large
size and strength advantage over the girl. Now others have seen the kid on TV
(although we don't know how big the girl is), so maybe I'm off base, but I
picture a big, hulking boy and an average sized girl--i.e., a very unequal
situation.
>
>Maggie, if everybody involved was even three years older, yeah, I'd say
>
>charge the kid with assault. They're not, though, and they're still little
>
>kids with some shit to work out, much as all thirteen year olds would
>loathe me for saying that.
***Well, I have a 14yo son and a 12yo daughter, I spend a lot of time at their
school and I usually have a houseful of young teens of one sex or the other, so
this is a situation I feel like I can speak to with some authority. I find
this hickey thing to be well outside of the normal horseplay and flirting
engaged in by young teens, and verging (really, really verging) on something
very seriously coercive and disturbing. I hope the kid will get a fair airing
of his side of the story, but if what the girl said is true, I think the boy is
gettting off easy with that $300 fine that his mother finds so objectionable.
Robert Lee
news:20031112212749...@mb-m21.aol.com:
> I find this hickey thing to be well outside of
> the normal horseplay and flirting engaged in by young teens,
So do I, Maggie, in case I didn't make that abundantly clear.
> and
> verging (really, really verging) on something very seriously coercive
> and disturbing.
Well, I'd need more circumstancial information to feel that way. As it is,
all I know is that some kid gave a girl a freaking hickey and needs to
learn something about personal boundaries. I still don't know anything that
would lead me to believe it was anything more serious than that.
Karen
> Karen <Ka...@crashelex.com> wrote in news:3FB0E96D...@crashelex.com:
>
>
>>What if the bruise inflicted on your daughter was the result of being
>>struck by a boy instead of a hickey?
>
>
> Again, it wasn't, but, you know, what if was caused by a piece of a
> metorite that crashed into the classroom and the radioactivity gave my
> daughter super powers? That'd be cool.
>
I was drawing a parallel that you don't seem to see. Perhaps I can
clarify it for you. How different is holding a person against their will
and inflicting a bruise upon them with your mouth from holding a person
against their will and inflicting a bruise upon them with your fist? I
don't see any difference aside from the body part causing the bruise.
Karen E.
--
_______________________________________
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example"
Mark Twain, 'Puddn'head Wilson'
Karen
> Think back, ladies, to every horrible thing you did to another girl when
> you were around this same age--and I know you did them, so don't bother
> protesting. I'm not talking about the run-of-the-mill mean stuff anybody
> does, I'm talking about cruel behavior that borders on the psychotic--the
> kind of thing that still makes you cringe when you're trying to go to
> sleep and you remember.
Actually, Robert, some of us _were_ the girls having the horrible things
done to us and we would _never_ inflict that kind of pain and
embarrassment on another person. Believe it or not, but it's the truth.
tinydancer
"Karen" <Ka...@crashelex.com> wrote in message
news:3FB316D3...@crashelex.com...
> Robert Lee wrote:
>
>
> > Think back, ladies, to every horrible thing you did to another girl when
> > you were around this same age--and I know you did them, so don't bother
> > protesting. I'm not talking about the run-of-the-mill mean stuff anybody
> > does, I'm talking about cruel behavior that borders on the
psychotic--the
> > kind of thing that still makes you cringe when you're trying to go to
> > sleep and you remember.
>
> Actually, Robert, some of us _were_ the girls having the horrible things
> done to us and we would _never_ inflict that kind of pain and
> embarrassment on another person. Believe it or not, but it's the truth.
>
>
> Karen E.
I was thinking the exact same thing Karen, but figured it would be useless
to say it. I can honestly say, I never did anything mean to anyone, nor do
I have 'disturbed sleep' over anything I've done. I'm certainly not saying
I'm perfect, but I was hurt myself way too many times to ever hurt anyone
else. I guess I got an excess of the empathy genes or something.
td
Child
> Robert Lee wrote:
> > Karen <Ka...@crashelex.com> wrote in
news:3FB0E96D...@crashelex.com:
> >
> >
> >>What if the bruise inflicted on your daughter was the result of being
> >>struck by a boy instead of a hickey?
> >
> >
> > Again, it wasn't, but, you know, what if was caused by a piece of a
> > metorite that crashed into the classroom and the radioactivity gave my
> > daughter super powers? That'd be cool.
> >
>
> I was drawing a parallel that you don't seem to see. Perhaps I can
> clarify it for you. How different is holding a person against their will
> and inflicting a bruise upon them with your mouth from holding a person
> against their will and inflicting a bruise upon them with your fist? I
> don't see any difference aside from the body part causing the bruise.
one is painful and violent, the other isn't.
tinydancer
"Child" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote in message
news:vr6994t...@corp.supernews.com...
In a statement, the girl wrote: "I had leaned over to get my backpack when I
stood back up he bit me on the left side of my neck and then started sucking
on the right side of my neck. I tried to get away, but he put his arms
around
my backside and locked."
Personally, I'd rather get hit, and yes, I've been hit by a fist many times,
td
>
>
>
Child
"tinydancer" <tinyd...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:_JFsb.9214
> > one is painful and violent, the other isn't.
>
>
> In a statement, the girl wrote: "I had leaned over to get my backpack when
I
> stood back up he bit me on the left side of my neck and then started
sucking
> on the right side of my neck. I tried to get away, but he put his arms
> around
> my backside and locked."
>
>
> Personally, I'd rather get hit, and yes, I've been hit by a fist many
times,
I would rather be hickied.
remember this guy wasnt' a stranger and in fact may have been a pal.
tinydancer
"Child" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote in message
I'd guess the key question would be 'have you been punched in the face or
had some sort of sexually aggressive act forced upon you'? Cause I'd think
one has to experience both before they really know which is worse. And
maybe I should add, the physical wounds heal, forced sexually aggressive
acts stay with one ones whole lifetime. I don't clearly remember most of
the punches I took, but I do remember the sexually based gropes, touches,
the feeling of being trapped and at the mercy of someone else to let me go.
When someone is restraining you, you never really know at what point you
might get free.
td
formica63
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
news:20031112212749...@mb-m21.aol.com...
Wonders will never cease. I completely agree with Maggie. How in hell can
anyone think this is just a flirtatious incident? It's violent, and creepy.
Form.
formica63
It sounds frightening and most certainly violent.
Form.
Robert Lee
news:vr6bgbs...@corp.supernews.com:
>
> I would rather be hickied.
If I get a vote, I'd rather be hickied, too, and I'd bet I've been punched
way more times than tinydancer.
But then, I'm a MAN, and don't get a vote.
Robert Lee
> Actually, Robert, some of us _were_ the girls having the horrible
things
> done to us and we would _never_ inflict that kind of pain and
> embarrassment on another person.
Shit rolls downhill. You're talking to your male equivalent, here. If you
don't believe you have a male equivalent, you don't believe that men and
women are really equal.
> Believe it or not, but it's the truth.
Okay, sure. I'll believe that you are the one in a hundred exception who
did not take out her own abuse on other people around her, from such an
early age that you can pretty much call that woman a saint.
So...what do I do with the next poster who claims the same thing? I mean,
statistically, there's almost no chance you're both telling the truth.
And if you expect me to believe girls over boys on claiming never, ever
to have been brutish...you got the wrong boy, here. We're all goddamned
monkeys, those with vaginas included.
Robert Lee
news:8VEsb.8612$cD6....@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
> I was thinking the exact same thing Karen, but figured it would be
> useless to say it.
I rest my case. Do two subsequent "innocent" pleas to the same charge mean
anything but "guilty, Guilty, GUILTY" in alt.true-crime?
Steve D
plastered all over the newspapers. Even a fist fight in a school seems
to make the evening news and morning newspapers in our town. This may
be due to the local media's need to fill an hour up when they could tell
you all you would really need to know in about 5 minutes.
I can really relate to the post about handling a grope with just the
threat of physical violence. In middle school PE, I took a little
advantage of a contact situation and got a little out of line with a
girl. Hey, the hormones were starting to flow, what can I say. Anyway,
the girl proceded to tell me that if I did that one more time she was
going to rip my nuts off. Not wanting to lose my hormone flow, I didn't
try to find out if she was just kidding. We didn't speak for several
weeks, but I finally lightened the situation up by holding my hands
protectively over my crotch when she approached. I think we both did
some growing up in that experience. To me that is what being a kid is
all about. Making some bad decisions, learning from them, moving on,
and growing up. It just doesn't seem to me I needed the help of the
police and the local media to do this.
Maggie
***The reason this is news is not because the girl or the school made it news.
It's news because the boy's parents went to the press.
Child
news:jKGsb.10129$cD6....@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
I think my experience is different from yours.
i have been groped and harassed and never felt "trapped", mostly just
pissed off. my experiences being punched were only in the kickboxing
ring and I despised it. For me the damage to being hit was far more
damaging than any of the groping I have suffered.
--
BethF, Anchorage, AK
It's YOUR God.
They are YOUR rules.
YOU burn in hell.
Karen
> Karen <Ka...@crashelex.com> wrote in news:3FB316D3...@crashelex.com:
>
>
>>Actually, Robert, some of us _were_ the girls having the horrible
>
> things
>
>>done to us and we would _never_ inflict that kind of pain and
>>embarrassment on another person.
>
>
> Shit rolls downhill. You're talking to your male equivalent, here. If you
> don't believe you have a male equivalent, you don't believe that men and
> women are really equal.
I certainly do believe that guys got picked on in the same cruel way
that I was.
>
>
>>Believe it or not, but it's the truth.
>
>
> Okay, sure. I'll believe that you are the one in a hundred exception who
> did not take out her own abuse on other people around her, from such an
> early age that you can pretty much call that woman a saint.
I wouldn't say that not turning the cruelty that I experienced from some
of my peers against others makes me a saint. I'm sure some people who
were tormented did take it out on those they could. I'm just not one of
them.
>
> So...what do I do with the next poster who claims the same thing? I mean,
> statistically, there's almost no chance you're both telling the truth.
Why do you think that? I believe there are plenty of folks who were
tormented in school and chose not to take it out on others. I hung out
with a lot of them.
> And if you expect me to believe girls over boys on claiming never, ever
> to have been brutish...you got the wrong boy, here. We're all goddamned
> monkeys, those with vaginas included.
I've never said anything that should have led to the conclusion that I
believe boys weren't/aren't tormented or that I think it happens to boys
less than girls. I spoke in reference to girls because that's what the
original story dealt with.
I'm sorry that you had the same type of experience in high school that I
did. Frankly, it sounds like you had it worse and that's really awful.
I'll drop this now since we've drifted pretty far off topic.
Glek
news:Xns94318DB03D70Bcr...@207.69.154.206:
> Glek <gle...@email.com> wrote in news:Xns9430C4C12455153535353@
> 207.69.154.206:
>
>> A conviction in kidnapping would probably mean
>> incarceration. That is what I was referring to.
>
> You also probably wouldn't be in "juvie," since you'd inevitably be
> charged as an adult were the charge increased to kidnapping. And...this
> being Texas , after all, let's see about that charge at an adult felony
> level...
>
> Ah, never mind. I guess the hysteroids are right about this one: there's
> nothing absurd in having this kid face the death penalty for being
> thirteen and acting like an asshole.
>
I didn't give any of those girls hickeys, I only stole a couple of kisses, so
according to Maggie's criminal code that deals with playground misbehavior I
probably would have wound up serving time in juvie. (Though being Maggie, I
may have done hard time after all, you might be right.)
BTW: I asked some women at work what they would have done in this situation.
The consensus was the best course of action would have been to knee the punk
where it really hurts at the first opportunity. I would add, since he marked
her, she could then have marked him with her bookbag while he was doubled
over. I don't think she would have had any more problems with him after that.
Michael Snyder
Funny how everyone seems to completely ignore the possibility that
the boy is telling the truth and the girl is lying...
Glek
> Child <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote in
> news:Xns943174A083716be...@216.168.3.44:
>
>> Did Robert say this kid shouldn't be punished?
>>
>
> Good god, no. He should have gotten at least a week out of school, and
> one would hope that his parents would take this seriously enough to make
> sure that was a not-fun week that stayed in memory for a good long time.
>
> And then he should have been forced to apologize to everybody involved
> when he returned. Which is much worse than that week off, and much more
> effective than a fucking criminal charge. (The only thing the kid's
> going to learn from that is "The system is stupid and arbitrary," which
> isn't a great lesson if you're trying to thwart criminal behavior.)
>
Which is what I think as well. Had he given other girls unwanted hickeys
previously, or had he given more than this one to this girl, I would have had
no problem with him being charged in court. If he were to continue behaving
like this in the future, having been informed that it is wrong, I would have
had no problem with introducing him to the court system. As it is, he may
have wanted to see what it was like to give a girl a hickey, and the school
and his parents subsequently informed him that this is not the way to find
out. (His parents did ground him and lecture him on imappropiate behavior,
BTW) With most boys this would be enough to make them think twice about doing
things like this to girls without their permission.
I am willing to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and let him be
instructed by the school and his parents for the time being without getting
the courts involved.
The best thing the girl's parents could have done would have been to add
their lecture to the one he got from the school and his parents.
Glek
news:Xns94318901DCFF2be...@216.168.3.44:
> maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie) wrote in
> news:20031112155319...@mb-m17.aol.com:
>
>> ***Well, I think you handled your grope very well, but I'd be
>> surprised if most young teens would have the confidence to do what you
>> did.
>
> My mother raised me to be no ones victim. Had I gone home crying about a
> grope she would have looked at me pretty funny.
>
>
>> And I know many people will disagree, but I consider the hickey to be
>> a much greater intrusion and a more egregious assault than a grope.
>> It's the necessary restraining that's involved that troubles me as
>> much as the "marking."
>
> Perhaps thats the fundamental disagreement - that we consider the offense
> to be of a completely different magnitude.
>
>
>
>
>
I hope your parents are going to come out with a book and video on how to
raise confident, tolerant children. Their wisdom and insight is much needed.
Robert Lee
news:20031113091235...@mb-m12.aol.com:
> ***The reason this is news is not because the girl or the school made
> it news. It's news because the boy's parents went to the press.
...and good for them.
d~
<cranch...@snippitydoodah.earthlink.net> wrote:
>Think back, ladies, to every horrible thing you did to another girl when
>you were around this same age--and I know you did them, so don't bother
>protesting. I'm not talking about the run-of-the-mill mean stuff anybody
>does, I'm talking about cruel behavior that borders on the psychotic--the
>kind of thing that still makes you cringe when you're trying to go to
>sleep and you remember.
You've got a weird sense of what *everyone* does.
I never did *anything* horrid to *anyone* at *any age* growing up.
d~
d~
<cranch...@snippitydoodah.earthlink.net> wrote:
>I keep thinking about them as I read this thread. This is not a good
>thing.
I completely agree that "neighboring by police" is a bad thing. What
a bunch of losers. It isn't that hard (at any age) to simply say
"hey, can you give my kid his bike back?" and only involve the police
if the request is refused. (coz that's theft)
but, I really think that barring any evidence that the girl was a
willing participant that the scenario presented calls for a little bit
of "the man" giving the kid a taste of "legal ramifications."
d~
Child
news:Xns9432B1FF...@207.69.154.202:
Actually, they had planned on it when they were younger. They seem to
have changed their minds.
Child
news:Xns9432B1B6D...@207.69.154.202:
During this thread i keep being reminded of something that happened to
my significant other when he was in third grade. Apparently, Mike and
his friend had a crush on these two girls and in order to express their
interest they ran over to them on the playground and hit them on the
arm. Mike and his friend were immediately sent to the principal for
discipline, who asked why they hit the girls. When they explained, the
principal apparently laughed and explained there were much better ways
to get the attention of those girls that they liked.
Good principal.
Yes, what this kid did was wrong, but I suspect its not all that
different than mike hitting his little girlfriends on the playground.
Punishment is warranted, you bet, but bringing the police into it and
threatening legal action is ridiculous.
tinydancer
"Child" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote in message
I think what's been missed here is, this was an assault. One of my
daughters had a similar situation when she was just a bit older, 15. It
happened at the restaurant where she was employed. I won't go into details,
except to say when dh went to pick her up from work after she'd called us,
he immediately came into the family room where I was sitting and told me
'something was wrong with her'. He knew immediately something was very
wrong. I went to her room to check on her and at first she wouldn't talk
to me, but I could tell she was very upset about something. So I kept
talking to her until she confided in me.
I called and spoke to her manager there. He told me 'they thought something
was wrong with her, something had happened, but she wouldn't talk to anyone
about it, she simply called us and said 'she didn't feel well and needed to
come home early.' The employee who was involved was fired immediately and
told not to ever come back there. And the manager left it up to us whether
we wanted to file assault charges against him. I left that up to my
daughter and she chose not to once she found out he was fired and she
wouldn't ever have to be around him again.
Everyone at work was very kind to her when she came back, but a big
difference was 'she didn't have to come into contact with the person who'd
done this to her again.' Which is different from the girl in this story.
This kid went to school with her. She would have no way of not having to be
around him.
No matter how much we haggle this issue out, none of us know's how this girl
in the incident was affected by it. How traumatized she was, or how
threatened she felt. IMHO, if her parents felt like pressing charges was
something that was warranted, who are we to question them. If I'd have
gotten my hands on the person who had done this to my daughter, I'd have
ripped his throat out.
I hope none of you who is opposed to this action never has to hold your
child in your arms and comfort her if/when someone hurts her. Having raised
three daughters, there are just certain situations when a parent know's
whatever happened was more serious than other situations. When some sort of
restraint is involved, it's quite different than someone grabbing a boob in
the hallway.
td
Child
news:R%Usb.1503$rV....@bignews5.bellsouth.net:
I guess my point is TD, is that its not necessarily any different to
some of us.
Robert Lee
news:sia7rv802ac34rbaa...@4ax.com:
> I never did *anything* horrid to *anyone* at *any age* growing up.
>
I don't believe you. This isn't based on any "sense" or some kind of
subjective thing based on my own life actions. I'm not that much of a
solipsist.
I just don't believe anybody who claims to have never done anything wrong
to another person. Why on earth *would* I believe that?
Robert Lee
news:5pa7rv8211oo7ifhp...@4ax.com:
> but, I really think that barring any evidence that the girl was a
> willing participant that the scenario presented calls for a little bit
> of "the man" giving the kid a taste of "legal ramifications."
Really? Why, since we're talking about kids, here, not adults?
Robert Lee
@bignews5.bellsouth.net:
> I think what's been missed here is, this was an assault.
Not really. What you seem to keep missing is that this kid is a KID, and we
have different legal standards for children than we do for adults. Or at
least that's what we're supposed to have, at the tail end of western law
stretching back several centuries establishing just that.
d~
<cranch...@snippitydoodah.earthlink.net> wrote:
>d~ <djominsa...@sayno2spam.hotmail.com> wrote in
>news:5pa7rv8211oo7ifhp...@4ax.com:
>
>> but, I really think that barring any evidence that the girl was a
>> willing participant that the scenario presented calls for a little bit
>> of "the man" giving the kid a taste of "legal ramifications."
>
>Really? Why, since we're talking about kids, here, not adults?
Huh?
d~
Robert Lee
news:ice8rvggeeb6vsiqr...@4ax.com:
>>Really? Why, since we're talking about kids, here, not adults?
>
> Huh?
>
You are aware, right, that our legal system and the traditions it descended
from all recognize that children shouldn't be held to the same legal
standards as adults, even regarding the most extreme crimes?
I realize there's been some erosion of that in the US, lately, with all
this "try as an adult" bullshit (Hey, can we pass some laws so that I can
be tried as a woman when I feel like it or, say, a dog when it would
benefit me?), but I didn't think it was so severe that people had actually
forgotten the legal distinction existed.
tinydancer
"Robert Lee" <cranch...@snippitydoodah.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9432B0CAE5D3Acr...@207.69.154.206...
I have not heard he's being charged as anything other than a 'child'. He's
certainly not being bound over as an adult. This is a juvenile charge in a
juvenile court, a misdemeanor charge of simple assault. The proper charge
for what took place.
td