15 y/o NJ murder suspect was molested by internet pedophile
James Wooten
It now appears that 15 y/o Sam Manzie had a few homosexual trysts over the
past year with a pedophile he met in an AOL chat room. 43-year old Stephen
Phillip Simmons was arrested last week on nine sex related charges just 3
days before Edward Werner's murder. The article does not say whether the
charges pertain to acts he did with Manzie. I guess the motive may not have
been robbery after all.
Found this story on the New York Daily News.
Boys in Vicious
Sex Cycle
Teen was kid killer —
and victim, say cops
By WILLIAM K. RASHBAUM and KEVIN McCOY
Daily News Staff Writers
The New Jersey teenager charged with raping and killing an 11-year-old
neighbor had been sexually victimized himself by a convicted pedophile he
met via computer, authorities said yesterday.
The slaying of little Edward Werner occurred Saturday, three days after
investigators arrested a 43-year-old man who allegedly had a year-long
sexual relationship with murder suspect Sam Manzie, 15.
Monmouth County Prosecutor John Kaye characterized Manzie as a victim of
Stephen Phillip Simmons of Holbrook, L.I., who has twice been convicted of
sex crimes.
Kaye would not discuss whether the cybersex twist could provide a motive in
the killing of Edward, who was assaulted and strangled at Manzie's house
while selling candy and wrapping paper door-to-door near his home in
Jackson Township, N.J.
But the victim's neighbors said the relationship could help explain — but
not excuse — the teen's alleged actions.
"Absolutely, he's a victim, too, but that doesn't mean you drag an
11-year-old into the woods," said Mark Omark, 37.
Prosecutors said Manzie met Simmons in a "Boys" chat room of the America
Online computer service last year and struck up a sexual conversation. The
encounter led to a year-long relationship between Simmons and the teen, who
was 14 when the two met.
"There are indications that he went willingly, but it's still a crime
because this was an underage boy," said Drew Biondo, a spokesman for
Suffolk County, L.I., District Attorney James Catterson.
Simmons arranged to meet Manzie at the Freehold Raceway Mall in New Jersey
during the summer of 1996, then had sex with him at a nearby motel, Kaye
said.
Simmons then took Manzie to his home on Windemere Drive in Holbrook for a
weekend of sex in August 1996, authorities said. The teen's parents, Nick
and Dolores Manzie, who were unaware of Simmons, reported their son missing
before he returned.
Simmons met Manzie at least three more times at the mall between August and
December 1996 before motel sex sessions, authorities said. New Jersey
criminal complaints charge that Simmons photographed Manzie at least six
times "engaging in a prohibited sexual act."
Manzie's parents discovered the relationship when they noticed
long-distance phone bills to Simmons' number. They confronted the teen, who
admitted all, Kaye said.
The teen's father called Simmons "and told him to break it off, not to have
any more contact with the boy," Kaye said.
The family also hired a counselor for the teen. Manzie discussed the sexual
relationship during a therapy session, prompting the counselor to notify
authorities.
The New Jersey investigators in turn alerted Suffolk County cops, who got a
statement from Manzie implicating Simmons. But the teen later stopped
cooperating and broke a monitor designed to track calls from Simmons.
Investigators arrested Simmons on sodomy charges at his home on Sept. 24.
They seized computer equipment containing pornography "involving both
children and adults," one law enforcement source said.
Simmons "gave a full statement. He admitted to everything," Biondo said.
He was being held on $50,000 bail yesterday at the Suffolk County Jail in
Riverhead, pending transfer to New Jersey. Simmons faces nine charges in
New Jersey, including sexual assault and endangering the welfare of a
child.
Court records show Simmons pleaded guilty in March 1986 to a second-degree
sodomy case in Brooklyn and was sentenced to a one-to-three year prison
term. He also was convicted of sexual assault and lewd behavior with a
minor in Volusia County, Fla., in 1984.
News of Simmons' arrest and criminal background stunned his Long Island
neighbors. "He had people coming and going and cars over there all the
time," said Susan Leicht. "But I never thought something like this could
happen."
The link between Simmons and Manzie prompted District Attorney Catterson to
call for new guidelines to protect young computer users.
"The Internet is a wide-open place with very few stop lights. What this
case shows is we need to develop safeguards that parents can use to help
protect their kids," Catterson said.
Meanwhile, in New Jersey yesterday, Edward's relatives were preparing for
his funeral.
Martha Sprowles
James Wooten wrote:
>
> It now appears that 15 y/o Sam Manzie had a few homosexual trysts over the
> past year with a pedophile he met in an AOL chat room. 43-year old Stephen
> Phillip Simmons was arrested last week on nine sex related charges just 3
> days before Edward Werner's murder. The article does not say whether the
> charges pertain to acts he did with Manzie. I guess the motive may not have
> been robbery after all.
This story gets sadder and sadder. Not only was this kid (he was 14 at
the time) sexually abused by the man named in the story, my newspaper
says the guy also took the boy home to "share" him with his 59-year-old
roommate. So here we have a child sexually attacked by an older male,
then in turn becoming the older male sexually attacking a child. If I
were a Freudian, I would say that the murder of Edward Werner was almost
a metaphorical suicide by Sam Manzie.
Martha Sprowles
Martha Sprowles
Dear Stephen,
I appreciate your post. I was aware of the information you transmitted,
however, and I still feel that there are parallels. There is no
question in my mind that, if Sam Manzie knew he was gay, he was not yet
comfortable with it. His web page had a photo of "my girlfriend," for
example.
My concern is with the fact that, in Sam's case, a much older male took
advantage of him, particularly in taking him home to "share" with his
own roommate. I doubt very much that this is the ideal way for a young
man who feels he is gay to be initiated into sexual activity.
Martha Sprowles
Stephen Hopkins
In article <343F68...@erols.com>,
Martha Sprowles <spro...@erols.com> wrote:
>Dear Stephen,
>
>I appreciate your post. I was aware of the information you transmitted,
>however, and I still feel that there are parallels. There is no
>question in my mind that, if Sam Manzie knew he was gay, he was not yet
>comfortable with it. His web page had a photo of "my girlfriend," for
>example.
Yes, that struck me also. Laura, however, lives in Arizona, a fair few =
miles and several states removed from NJ, so it is unlikely they were =
seeing each other frequently, if at all. More likely IMO is that they =
shared a common interest in the Smashing Pumpkins and as a result became =
good friends. Sam's describing her as his "girlfriend", though, does not =
automatically suggest he was sexually interested in her. Even if he had =
managed to struggle to accept himself, he might not have been comfortable=
with the whole world knowing about it. So it would be perfectly logical =
to use that as a cover or something to try and head off suggestions he =
may have preferred his own sex.
>My concern is with the fact that, in Sam's case, a much older male took
>advantage of him, particularly in taking him home to "share" with his
>own roommate. I doubt very much that this is the ideal way for a young
>man who feels he is gay to be initiated into sexual activity.
Well, Sam didn't appear to feel uncomfortable with what he and Simmons =
were doing. It was Sam who wanted to go to Simmons' Long Island home. =
Even the POLICE spokesman, Suffolk County Police Communications Director =
Drew Biondo admitted that. And both of them met in various motels on at =
least three occasions after the LI tryst, with Sam going to elaborate =
lengths to elude his parents' grasp.
I know this may be hard to accept, but it seems very clear that Sam was a=
14-year-old who knew exactly what he wanted and set out to get it. I =
mean, look at the evidence: Sam _went_ to a homosexual chat group; Sam =
looked for contacts there; Sam agreed to meet in person a man from the =
homosexual chat group; Sam met the man and agreed to go into the woods =
for sex; Sam "had Simmons take him back to Simmons house"; Sam spent =
weekends at Simmons' house, while being "clever" to deceive his parents; =
Sam confided about his activities to the therapist, probably thinking he =
was protected by the "confidentiality" of psycho sessions; when Sam found=
out that his adult friend was being investigated, he warned the adult =
and smashed the detective equipment with a hammer; Sam refused to testify=
against the adult at Grand Jury hearings; Sam refused to be 'treated' =
for his homosexuality and choice of sexual partner. Those are not the =
actions of a boy trying to escape an abuser; they are the actions of a =
boy who finds himself in an intolerable position sanctioned by the =
system, and who tries to cling on to the one glimmer of light left, a =
sympathetic friend who, unlike his peers, would accept him for who and =
what he was and help him, at Sam's desire, to negotiate the sexual =
terrain. My conclusion, startling though it may be, is that until =
contemporary Western culture can accept that it is not the end of the =
world for gay teenage boys to seek out sexual contacts with older men, =
and until Western culture sees the folly in persecuting those men as =
"pedophiles" (sic) and "sex monsters" and God only knows what else, =
Edward Werner's death will not be the last that could have been avoided.
--=20
Stephen Hopkins <shop...@stadiou.demon.co.uk> PGP keys are on Web server=
at
http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk: 0x5085B1B9 (1024 bit), 0xBDF2F489 (2048 =
bit)
"It is a beautiful thing when a child hugs you." Anonymous, published in =
the
Hite Report on the Family, page 328 of Sceptre paperback, ISBN =
0-340-63963-6
Stephen Hopkins
In article <34353C...@erols.com>,
Martha Sprowles <spro...@erols.com> wrote:
>James Wooten wrote:
>>=20
>> It now appears that 15 y/o Sam Manzie had a few homosexual =
trysts over the
>> past year with a pedophile he met in an AOL chat room. 43-year old =
Stephen
>> Phillip Simmons was arrested last week on nine sex related charges =
just 3
>> days before Edward Werner's murder. The article does not say whether =
the
>> charges pertain to acts he did with Manzie. I guess the motive may not=
have
>> been robbery after all.
>
>This story gets sadder and sadder. Not only was this kid (he was 14 at
>the time) sexually abused by the man named in the story, my newspaper
>says the guy also took the boy home to "share" him with his 59-year-old
>roommate. So here we have a child sexually attacked by an older male,
>then in turn becoming the older male sexually attacking a child. If I
>were a Freudian, I would say that the murder of Edward Werner was almost
>a metaphorical suicide by Sam Manzie.
>
>Martha Sprowles
The Ashford Park Press I think contradicts your analysis, Martha (maybe =
albeit unwittingly). Read the following article, "Suspect said no to =
counselling", available from http://www.app.com/werner. The full URL is:
http://www.app.com/cgi-bin/movePage.cgi?regionalNews+NoPage+/regionalNews=
/ocean/Suspectsaidnotocouns.html
After you have read that article, read below. It tends to cast doubt on =
the role of Sam as the "helpless victim" of a "sex monster". Rather, Both=
Sam AND his lover are the victims of the neurosis eating its way through=
Western civilisation like the worst sort of cancer. From the various =
press reports, including those published by Ashford Park Press, it seems =
clear that Sam knew he was gay and was trying to find someone to help him=
through a particularly troublesome stage in his life. As you all know, =
gay teenagers are very often given a particularly rough time by their =
peers, and it is not at all unusual for gay teens to seek out an older, =
supportive adult to help them explore their sexuality. In article =
"Finding and treating sexual problems in juveniles difficult", also =
published by Ashford Park Press and available at =
http://www.app.com/werner, Regina Mc Enery writes: "Some young people who=
know Manzie have described him as a quiet teenager largely closed off to=
others. Even taunts of 'Manzie the Pansy' would not prompt an outburst, =
some youths said." So it seems clear that many of Manzie's acquaintances =
had some suspicion (or thought) he was gay. This isolation and ostracism =
from his peers would by itself have considerable effect. The the pressure=
of the police sting against his friend and lover would have easily =
driven him to breaking point. While I cannot condone what Sam Manzie did,=
the authorities must ask themselves what role they, and their systems, =
undoubtedly played in this tragedy. The blame cannot all be shouldered by=
one person here.
Stephen Hopkins (forwarded message follows).
Subject: Re: 1 Pedophile Commits Suicide
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 21:29:24 -0400
=46rom: hith...@hotmail.com
Organization: -
Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.boys
Mpanach wrote:
>=20
> rrit...@aol.com (RRitzmann) claimed:
>=20
> >And if the boy in question is over 14
> >and is consenting, no I don't have a problem with it.
>=20
> So you are one of the people who thinks that the 43 year old male lover
> had no detrimental effect on 15 year old Sam Manzie before he raped and
> killed an innocent 11 year old ?
If one reads the available news reports, one will find that Sam's =
behavior problems and rage did NOT begin until after the police forced =
him to agree to help them bust his adult male lover...
"at first he agreed" because he was given no other choice by the =
detectives and prosecutor... this is their standard procedure. 15 years =
ago, one of them proudly announced to the news reports that "We have to =
CRACK THE BOY, and it's not an easy thing to do."
That is what the POLICE DETECTIVE said... the one who is supposed to be =
"protecting" the boys from those other adults.
No, it is very obvious from all the news reports this past week that Sam =
was very upset at being forced to 'rat' on his adult lover, and finally =
he took a hammer and SMASHED the police equipment and ruined the tape in =
the recorder. That is not what one does if he is upset at being =
"molested" by somebody -- it what one does when they feel trapped by the =
police.
As for what Sam did to the younger boy, it's horrible -- but it's also =
very likely that this was, at the time, Sam's way of being sooo bad that =
in effect he was destroying himself as the only way out of the situation =
he had been trapped in by his parents reporting to the police and the =
police forcing him to help them jail his adult friend -- who Sam took a =
lot of effort to SEEK OUT AND FIND, and to trick his parents so he could =
get to see the man. (That too is not what one does if they are being =
"molested" or "assaulted" by someone -- one does not find all sorts of =
clever ways to get back to see that person again; one tries every way =
possible to AVOID seeing an abuser).
It's really too bad that little Eddie happened along to Sam's house that =
day, but the rage that drove Sam to do what he did clearly came from his =
feeling trapped by the police and the detectives and his parents, into =
"getting help" to change his sexual orientation -- clearly Sam felt he =
was gay, that's why he was "hanging around" a HOMOSEXUAL CHAT BOARD in =
the first place. Why else will a teen boy be in such a chat room, unless =
he is flaming the residents like Mr. Mpanach has decided to do here. But =
Sam was not doing that; he certainly would not have found his man if he =
had been flaming everyone.
It is about time that the legislators, the police, the detectives, the =
judges, and parents realize that there is a big difference between a 14 =
or 15 year old boy SEEKING OUT and cruising for someone to "get sexual =
with", and somebody forcing such activities on a kid who doesn't want it.=
Can a 14 year old decide? Sam did. HE made the arrangements of where and=
when to meet the man.=20
See =
http://www.app.com/cgi-bin/movePage.cgi?regionalNews+NoPage+/regionalNews=
/ocean/Suspectsaidnotocouns.html
"According to New York authorities, Manzie and Simmons agreed to meet at =
the Freehold Raceway Mall in Freehold Township on Aug. 10, 1996."
And after they had met, and gone off in the woods and had some fun, it =
was SAM who wanted to go back to the man's house:
"The teen and Simmons went to a wooded area near the mall and had a =
sexual encounter, and then the teen had Simmons take him back to Simmons'=
house in New York, where he spent the weekend and "engaged in various =
sexual activities," said Suffolk County Police Communications Director =
Drew Biondo.
Got that? This is the COP saying, right there, that it was SAM... "then =
the TEEN _had_ Simmons take him back" to the man's house... Even the cop =
doesn't say that 'the man took him back' or 'the man convinced him to go =
back' or whatever -- no, SAM HAD THE MAN TAKE HIM BACK TO THE MAN'S =
HOUSE. Even the cops say that.
"The teen and Simmons secretly met at the mall and then went to motels =
along Route 9 in Howell and Freehold townships three more times between =
September and December 1996"
If Sam didn't want to do these things, would he have made arrangements =
for these meetings? Sam even tricked his FATHER into taking him to the =
mall for one of these meetings... that is NOT the behavior of someone who=
is being "assaulted" or "abused" -- it's the behavior of someone who =
very much wants to do what he's doing.=20
And what is so bad about getting sucked, anyway? The taxpayers should be =
spending so much money on all this to keep this kid from putting his =
'thing' where it feels good, and isn't even going to get somebody =
pregnant? (If Sam was 14 and fucked a 14 or even a 13 year old girl, he =
wouldn't have been in so much trouble).
"When Manzie, 15, abruptly stopped cooperating with a police =
investigation of an accused pedophile, authorities took him to Kimball =
Medical Center's PESS -- Psychiatric Emergency Screening Services -- in =
Lakewood."
Yeah, the cops took him to a psychiatric clinic because he stopped =
cooperating with the cops... THAT is the way they deal with uncooperative=
kids; it is standard procedure in such cases. "We have to CRACK THE BOY,=
and it's not an easy thing to do." (see above for source of that =
statement).
It's about time the "authorities" start looking at the CIRCUMSTANCES of =
cases such as Sam's -- before they launch their arresting campaigns. Find=
out how much the kid did to arrange things; how much the kid WANTED to =
do what he did. Of course we have to protect kids from being attacked, or=
having stuff pushed onto them. But there ARE cases where the kid =
(especially boys) actively go out looking for it.
Especially for GAY BOYS. They can't look toward their classmates for =
intimacy and security, like the 'straight' kids can -- one little slip of=
the tongue and it's all over school and the gay kid gets beat up, =
ostracized by all the bigots, etc. That's why they often either kill =
themselves (the KIDS kill themselves) or they go looking for an older =
adult who they can trust not to 'put the word out'...
"Monmouth County Prosecutor John Kaye "described the boy as "very clever"=
in hiding his whereabouts from his worried parents. The prosecutor said=
the parents "cooperated and were helpful, and they did the best they =
could for this kid.""
Mpanach said:
"So you are one of the people who thinks that the 43 year old male lover=
had no detrimental effect on 15 year old Sam Manzie before he raped and =
killed an innocent 11 year old ?"
The 43 year old male is the person Sam WANTED TO BE WITH... it was after =
he was denied being with that person that he 'cracked' and smashed the =
cops spy stuff. And it was after the COPS took him to the shrink (and =
told him who-knows-what in the car on the way there) that he did the most=
atrocious thing possible to fight back against the corner he was pushed =
into.
Things could have been SO MUCH DIFFERENT if, when Sam's parents found out=
he had an adult friend (and probably found out at the same time that Sam=
considered himself to be gay -- though other press reports indicate that=
Sam's classmates had that figured out a long time ago)... if only the =
parents had not gone off the edge and immediately insisted that Sam "get =
counselling" etc. If instead they said something like "we understand that=
you feel that you are homosexual now, and you want to have someone with =
whom you can relate to about that subject -- so how about we meet this =
friend of yours, so we can be sure you are safe with him and so we know =
where you are and who you are with"... do you think Sam would have been =
so inclinded to use the F--- words against his parents then? do you think=
he would have been turned so much against society and the "authorities" =
that he'd do what he did, in such a rage, if the above had happened =
instead?
The internet has provided web pages for lots and lots of gay people, and =
lots of them have already posted their "coming out" stories, etc. -- and =
so many of them say, right out in the open on their web pages, that it =
was around 13, 14 or 15 that they 'became aware' that they were gay -- or=
at least felt very different from all the other kids and later when they=
learned what 'gay' meant realized it to be how they felt at those ages. =
It's time, in our changing world, to listen to these facts and change the=
way we -- as a society, as "authorities", as lawmakers -- drive our gay =
youth into sneaking away to meet other gay people, or killing themselves =
in sheer frustration and desperation.
Martha Sprowles
Stephen Hopkins wrote:
>
> In article <343F68...@erols.com>,
> Martha Sprowles <spro...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Dear Stephen,
> >
> >I appreciate your post. I was aware of the information you transmitted,
> >however, and I still feel that there are parallels. There is no
> >question in my mind that, if Sam Manzie knew he was gay, he was not yet
> >comfortable with it. His web page had a photo of "my girlfriend," for
> >example.
>
>
>
> >advantage of him, particularly in taking him home to "share" with his
> >own roommate. I doubt very much that this is the ideal way for a young
> >man who feels he is gay to be initiated into sexual activity.
>
I understand all this, and I don't have a problem with the fact that Sam
is a gay male. That's fine. I do have a problem (perhaps because I
have a son Sam's age) with Sam's early sexual experiences being with a
much older man who, in my opinion, did not have Sam's interests at
heart.
I agree with you that Sam's rage and frustration re: his interrupted
relations with the older man were probably contributing factors to
whatever led him to murder Edward Werner, but I believe that the
inappropriateness of the relationship in re: age was a factor, too.
This child was being used.
I gather that you have a vested interest in this situation, and I don't
want to engage in a lengthy debate about whether youngsters have the
right to express themselves sexually with much older persons, of the
same sex or of the other sex. I believe they do not. I believe we, as
a society, owe it to our children to prevent this kind of situation
until the child reaches a certain level of maturity, to enable the child
to understand human, not just sexual, but human relationships before
entering into one. And, in this society, a boy who finds himself in a
relationship with an (in my opinion) abusive older man, as Sam did, has
his options for sexual growth severely limited, if only by societal
disapproval. I believe that this is how an Andrew Cunanan is created.
Martha Sprowles
>
>
>
> --
> Stephen Hopkins <shop...@stadiou.demon.co.uk> PGP keys are on Web server at
> http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk: 0x5085B1B9 (1024 bit), 0xBDF2F489 (2048 bit)
> "It is a beautiful thing when a child hugs you." Anonymous, published in the
> Hite Report on the Family, page 328 of Sceptre paperback, ISBN 0-340-63963-6
Don Sobwick
Stephen Hopkins wrote:
>
> In article <34353C...@erols.com>,
> Martha Sprowles <spro...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >James Wooten wrote:
> >>
> >> past year with a pedophile he met in an AOL chat room. 43-year old Stephen
> >> Phillip Simmons was arrested last week on nine sex related charges just 3
> >> days before Edward Werner's murder. The article does not say whether the
> >> charges pertain to acts he did with Manzie. I guess the motive may not have
> >> been robbery after all.
> >
> >This story gets sadder and sadder. Not only was this kid (he was 14 at
> >the time) sexually abused by the man named in the story, my newspaper
> >says the guy also took the boy home to "share" him with his 59-year-old
> >roommate. So here we have a child sexually attacked by an older male,
> >then in turn becoming the older male sexually attacking a child. If I
> >were a Freudian, I would say that the murder of Edward Werner was almost
> >a metaphorical suicide by Sam Manzie.
> >
> >Martha Sprowles
>
>
> http://www.app.com/cgi-bin/movePage.cgi?regionalNews+NoPage+/regionalNews/ocean/Suspectsaidnotocouns.html
>
>
>
> Stephen Hopkins (forwarded message follows).
>
> Subject: Re: 1 Pedophile Commits Suicide
> Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 21:29:24 -0400
> Organization: -
> Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.boys
>
> Mpanach wrote:
> >
> >
> > >And if the boy in question is over 14
> > >and is consenting, no I don't have a problem with it.
> >
> > had no detrimental effect on 15 year old Sam Manzie before he raped and
> > killed an innocent 11 year old ?
>
>
> "at first he agreed" because he was given no other choice by the detectives and prosecutor... this is their standard procedure. 15 years ago, one of them proudly announced to the news reports that "We have to CRACK THE BOY, and it's not an easy thing to do."
>
> That is what the POLICE DETECTIVE said... the one who is supposed to be "protecting" the boys from those other adults.
>
> No, it is very obvious from all the news reports this past week that Sam was very upset at being forced to 'rat' on his adult lover, and finally he took a hammer and SMASHED the police equipment and ruined the tape in the recorder. That is not what one does if he is upset at being "molested" by somebody -- it what one does when they feel trapped by the police.
>
>
>
> It's really too bad that little Eddie happened along to Sam's house that day, but the rage that drove Sam to do what he did clearly came from his feeling trapped by the police and the detectives and his parents, into "getting help" to change his sexual orientation -- clearly Sam felt he was gay, that's why he was "hanging around" a HOMOSEXUAL CHAT BOARD in the first place. Why else will a teen boy be in such a chat room, unless he is flaming the residents like Mr. Mpanach has decided to do here.
>
> It is about time that the legislators, the police, the detectives, the judges, and parents realize that there is a big difference between a 14 or 15 year old boy SEEKING OUT and cruising for someone to "get sexual with", and somebody forcing such activities on a kid who doesn't want it. Can a 14 year old decide? Sam did. HE made the arrangements of where and when to meet the man.
>
> See http://www.app.com/cgi-bin/movePage.cgi?regionalNews+NoPage+/regionalNews/ocean/Suspectsaidnotocouns.html
>
> "According to New York authorities, Manzie and Simmons agreed to meet at the Freehold Raceway Mall in Freehold Township on Aug. 10, 1996."
>
> And after they had met, and gone off in the woods and had some fun, it was SAM who wanted to go back to the man's house:
>
> "The teen and Simmons went to a wooded area near the mall and had a sexual encounter, and then the teen had Simmons take him back to Simmons' house in New York, where he spent the weekend and "engaged in various sexual activities," said Suffolk County Police Communications Director Drew Biondo.
>
> Got that? This is the COP saying, right there, that it was SAM... "then the TEEN _had_ Simmons take him back" to the man's house... Even the cop doesn't say that 'the man took him back' or 'the man convinced him to go back' or whatever -- no, SAM HAD THE MAN TAKE HIM BACK TO THE MAN'S HOUSE. Even the cops say that.
>
> "The teen and Simmons secretly met at the mall and then went to motels along Route 9 in Howell and Freehold townships three more times between September and December 1996"
>
> If Sam didn't want to do these things, would he have made arrangements for these meetings? Sam even tricked his FATHER into taking him to the mall for one of these meetings... that is NOT the behavior of someone who is being "assaulted" or "abused" -- it's the behavior of someone who very much wants to do what he's doing.
>
> And what is so bad about getting sucked, anyway? The taxpayers should be spending so much money on all this to keep this kid from putting his 'thing' where it feels good, and isn't even going to get somebody pregnant? (If Sam was 14 and fucked a 14 or even a 13 year old girl, he wouldn't have been in so much trouble).
>
> "When Manzie, 15, abruptly stopped cooperating with a police investigation of an accused pedophile, authorities took him to Kimball Medical Center's PESS -- Psychiatric Emergency Screening Services -- in Lakewood."
>
> Yeah, the cops took him to a psychiatric clinic because he stopped cooperating with the cops... THAT is the way they deal with uncooperative kids; it is standard procedure in such cases. "We have to CRACK THE BOY, and it's not an easy thing to do." (see above for source of that statement).
>
> It's about time the "authorities" start looking at the CIRCUMSTANCES of cases such as Sam's -- before they launch their arresting campaigns. Find out how much the kid did to arrange things; how much the kid WANTED to do what he did. Of course we have to protect kids from being attacked, or having stuff pushed onto them. But there ARE cases where the kid (especially boys) actively go out looking for it.
>
> Especially for GAY BOYS. They can't look toward their classmates for intimacy and security, like the 'straight' kids can -- one little slip of the tongue and it's all over school and the gay kid gets beat up, ostracized by all the bigots, etc. That's why they often either kill themselves (the KIDS kill themselves) or they go looking for an older adult who they can trust not to 'put the word out'...
>
> "Monmouth County Prosecutor John Kaye "described the boy as "very clever" in hiding his whereabouts from his worried parents. The prosecutor said the parents "cooperated and were helpful, and they did the best they could for this kid.""
>
> Mpanach said:
> "So you are one of the people who thinks that the 43 year old male lover had no detrimental effect on 15 year old Sam Manzie before he raped and killed an innocent 11 year old ?"
>
>
>
>
> Dear Stephen: Thank you for posting the Asberry Park Press article. Debby S.<sarg...@injersey.com>
cyli
I agree with much of your post. Except the older man having sex with
the boy. Why, as a responsible adult, did he not point out that the
boy would be much better off with someone his own age? That is where
most teens start in their sexual relationships. This was a boy with a
great drive to have a romance and a sexual relationship. He could
surely have found someone in those very same chat rooms who was more
legally and morally acceptable than an much older man. Travel was
obviously no problem to him, so that reason is out. I'm sure he'd
have been able to even find a way to have met someone his own age in a
motel or hotel for experimentation of a sexual kind. Pre-register
under his dad's name, for instance, for the family and then show up
saying he was dropped off while they went somewhere and please help
with the luggage as mom and dad would expect it unpacked when they
arrived? Meeting at a SF Con would be excellent cover, also.
A responsible older advisor who wasn't cruising for young stuff would
certainly never have gotten himself into sex with a 14 year old under
these circumstances. Instead he'd have advised the teen of the gay
resources open to him on the 'Net and in the outer world. In fact,
he'd have warned him about the old guys who cruise and talked to him
about disease control and sense in relationships, wouldn't he?
On Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:55:13 GMT, shop...@stadiou.demon.co.uk
(Stephen Hopkins) wrote:
"If I die of curiosity, who will entertain you with naive questions?"
I only answer my mail on an average of once every two months. Be patient.
Donna Whitman
cy...@visi.com (cyli) wrote:
>I agree with much of your post. Except the older man having sex with
>the boy. Why, as a responsible adult, did he not point out that the
>boy would be much better off with someone his own age? That is where
>most teens start in their sexual relationships.
The older man was probably a ember of NAMBLA and that's their MO.
I watched a feature on them that a Boston TV station put together and
I thought I was sexually open-minded until I saw that. These guys make
me puke.
Martha Sprowles
Sharonpo wrote:
>
> Stephen Hopkins wrote:
> In an ideal situation, yes. But like I say, gay teens face problems that their
> straight counterparts don't even think of.
>
>
> Martha wrote
> >While I agree that gay teens have a
> >much, much harder time of it than straight teens, I persist in my belief
> >that it is improper for an older person to "initiate" either gay or
> >straight teens into sexual activity. I don't want to sound cruel, but
> >it's unfortunately part of being a gay teen that you have trouble
> >finding someone your own age to date: many gay teens have not
> >recognized their own sexual identity or are struggling against it and
> >are not available.
> >
> >But *all* teenagers suffer terribly about sex, whether they're getting
> >any or not. And just as I feel it won't kill a heterosexual teen to
> >wait a while before indulging in sexual intercourse, I feel that
> >homosexual teens can wait, too.
> >
>
> Martha,
>
> Thank you for this response, to which I cannot add a single thing of
> substance.
>
> Men and children? <puke>
Add Women and children? <puke> and I'll join you.
Martha
Stephen Hopkins
In article <34408ff1...@news.visi.com>,
cy...@visi.com (cyli) wrote:
>I agree with much of your post. Except the older man having sex with
>the boy. Why, as a responsible adult, did he not point out that the
>boy would be much better off with someone his own age? That is where
>most teens start in their sexual relationships.
Is this also true for gay teens? Don't forget of course that if a teenage=
boy has a crush on a same-age girl, he is not going to get ridiculed if =
he makes an advance (or whatever) and she's not interested. The same =
cannot be said for a gay boy making an advance on another boy he might =
have a crush on. The potential fall-out of a gay teen being "unmasked" by=
his peers I leave to your imagination.
In another post, Martha Sprowles said that I must have a vested interest =
in this case and the arguments I was putting (perhaps she read my Web =
page). No, I don't have any such interest. I am just so sad and so =
depressed at the society we seem to have created. What sort of world is =
it where two 14-year-old boys, for instance, can't even hug each other =
with any degree of affection without falling prey to the sniping and =
innuendo and downright bullying of their peers? Where to feel a deep =
sense of fondness and affection for your best friend and to express that =
by snuggling each other, or even just hugging--HUGGING, I ask you!--will =
the next day see you branded a "perverted fucking fag" and frozen out of =
your hitherto secure circle of friends. It is this very society that =
drives many gay teenagers to look outside their age group for sexual =
relationships. Then when the CPS or whatever find out they brand the =
boy's partner a "pedophile" and ship the teen off to the local shrink or =
foster home or whatever. THAT is the real child abuse and--again--it is =
gay teens who suffer the brunt of it. So the homophobia, plain and =
simple, of a society that pays lip-service to "protecting" its kids =
actually destroys the very kids whose best interests they claim to have =
at heart.
>This was a boy with a
>great drive to have a romance and a sexual relationship. He could
>surely have found someone in those very same chat rooms who was more
>legally and morally acceptable than an much older man.
This begs the question: If he COULD have, why DIDN'T he?
>Travel was
>obviously no problem to him, so that reason is out. I'm sure he'd
>have been able to even find a way to have met someone his own age in a
>motel or hotel for experimentation of a sexual kind. Pre-register
>under his dad's name, for instance, for the family and then show up
>saying he was dropped off while they went somewhere and please help
>with the luggage as mom and dad would expect it unpacked when they
>arrived? Meeting at a SF Con would be excellent cover, also.
In an ideal situation, yes. But like I say, gay teens face problems that =
their straight counterparts don't even think of.
>A responsible older advisor who wasn't cruising for young stuff would
>certainly never have gotten himself into sex with a 14 year old under
>these circumstances. Instead he'd have advised the teen of the gay
>resources open to him on the 'Net and in the outer world. In fact,
>he'd have warned him about the old guys who cruise and talked to him
>about disease control and sense in relationships, wouldn't he?
I agree with much of this. "Mentor" is, I think, the word you might be =
looking for. Such a responsible mentor could also permit sleep-overs, and=
turn a blind-eye to any intimacies that might occur, thus obviating the =
need for faffing around with motels etc.
--=20
Stephen Hopkins <shop...@stadiou.demon.co.uk> PGP keys are on Web server=
at
http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk: 0x5085B1B9 (1024 bit), 0xBDF2F489 (2048 =
bit)
"It is a beautiful thing when a child hugs you." Anonymous, published in =
the
Hite Report on the Family, page 328 of Sceptre paperback, ISBN =
0-340-63963-6
Stephen Hopkins
In article <ef4.53$XC.5...@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net>,
dwhi...@fox.nstn.ca (Donna Whitman) wrote:
>cy...@visi.com (cyli) wrote:
>
>>I agree with much of your post. Except the older man having sex with
>>the boy. Why, as a responsible adult, did he not point out that the
>>boy would be much better off with someone his own age? That is where
>>most teens start in their sexual relationships.=20
>
> The older man was probably a ember of NAMBLA and that's their MO.
>I watched a feature on them that a Boston TV station put together and
>I thought I was sexually open-minded until I saw that. These guys make
>me puke.
ROFLOL!!!!! Oh, and of course, a Boston TV station reporting on NAMBLA =
would of COURSE be totally fair, impartial, accurate and balanced, =
wouldn't it? Bah! Don't make me laugh.
NAMBLA's MO is quite simply to campaign to de-stigmatise the issue of =
(primarily) gay teens having relationships with men. Yes, some of its =
members may not be holier-than-thou, but that NAMBLA is still around now,=
after 20 years and countless NYPD, NY State and FBI investigations, is =
testimony to its meticulousness in staying within the law. And I could =
write a book about the number and variety of mis-representations of =
NAMBLA in the press.
Enough of this--I'm going to watch the CBS Evening News to check for any =
updates on the Manzie affair.
Martha Sprowles
Stephen Hopkins wrote:
<snip>
>
> In an ideal situation, yes. But like I say, gay teens face problems that their straight counterparts don't even think of.
>
<snip>
> I agree with much of this. "Mentor" is, I think, the word you might be looking for. Such a responsible mentor could also permit sleep-overs, and turn a blind-eye to any intimacies that might occur, thus obviating the need for faffing around with motels etc.
Dear Stephen,
For some reason, the parts of your post that I particularly wanted to
address didn't come up in my "reply" window.
Yes, I did visit your web page. While I agree that gay teens have a
much, much harder time of it than straight teens, I persist in my belief
that it is improper for an older person to "initiate" either gay or
straight teens into sexual activity. I don't want to sound cruel, but
it's unfortunately part of being a gay teen that you have trouble
finding someone your own age to date: many gay teens have not
recognized their own sexual identity or are struggling against it and
are not available.
But *all* teenagers suffer terribly about sex, whether they're getting
any or not. And just as I feel it won't kill a heterosexual teen to
wait a while before indulging in sexual intercourse, I feel that
homosexual teens can wait, too.
You closing statement about what a shame we can't hug each other--well,
I *do* hug my friends, male and female, and I kiss them, too, and I
don't mind if other *adults* do the same, or if teenagers hug and kiss
other teenagers.
Martha Sprowles
Sharonpo
Stephen Hopkins wrote:
In an ideal situation, yes. But like I say, gay teens face problems that their
straight counterparts don't even think of.
Martha wrote
>While I agree that gay teens have a
>much, much harder time of it than straight teens, I persist in my belief
>that it is improper for an older person to "initiate" either gay or
>straight teens into sexual activity. I don't want to sound cruel, but
>it's unfortunately part of being a gay teen that you have trouble
>finding someone your own age to date: many gay teens have not
>recognized their own sexual identity or are struggling against it and
>are not available.
>
>But *all* teenagers suffer terribly about sex, whether they're getting
>any or not. And just as I feel it won't kill a heterosexual teen to
>wait a while before indulging in sexual intercourse, I feel that
>homosexual teens can wait, too.
>
Martha,
Thank you for this response, to which I cannot add a single thing of
substance.
Men and children? <puke>
Thanks...
Sharon
Kris Baker
shar...@aol.com (Sharonpo) wrote:
>Martha wrote
>>While I agree that gay teens have a
>>much, much harder time of it than straight teens, I persist in my
belief
>>that it is improper for an older person to "initiate" either gay or
>>straight teens into sexual activity. I don't want to sound cruel, but
>>it's unfortunately part of being a gay teen that you have trouble
>>finding someone your own age to date: many gay teens have not
>>recognized their own sexual identity or are struggling against it and
>>are not available.
>>
>>But *all* teenagers suffer terribly about sex, whether they're getting
>>any or not. And just as I feel it won't kill a heterosexual teen to
>>wait a while before indulging in sexual intercourse, I feel that
>>homosexual teens can wait, too.
>>
>
>Martha,
>
>Thank you for this response, to which I cannot add a single thing of
> substance.
>
>Men and children? <puke>
>
>Thanks...
>Sharon
Bravo, Martha & Sharon.
I can add nothing, either.
Kris
cyli
Well, we can tell you're not straight or were very very popular. Yar,
like a geeky teen won't be ridculed for asking out a really hot babe.
Wrong. He can be made quite the butt of jokes for the rest of his
high school career if he steps out of line and looks too high.
Whatever* his gender preference is.
Sure, gays face more problems than straights. Why add to them by
getting the age problem added on? Yes, I've seen some very mature
teens go after older persons of their gender choice. Even
successfully. However, the more general thing is the one where my 15
or 16 year old daughter had some 20something guy hanging after her.
Evenutally she got bored with the adoration and sent him away. Never
having dated him. "Well, mom, I wondered why he wasn't able to get
women his own age and had to hang after me."
I have a dear friend who likes younger persons for romance/sex
desires. Having sense, this person waits for legality to strike
before acting on the desires. And has gotten bored with the younger
minds as age has come upon them. So the real relationships tend to be
with persons a lot closer to the same age.
And why, just as a wonderment, do we so seldom hear about lesbians
running around hitting on chicken in a basket? But of so many gay
males doing so? And why, the Letourneau case to the contrary, do we
hear more about straight men looking for more youthful female
companions more than we do about the lovely Mrs. Robinson? Hey, I
know that for sure I love looking at young men more than I do at the
old guys, but I'll bet if suddenly single, the younger men I know
would still be my friends, but the dating I'd do would be closer to my
own age. If I could find any of them who could still dance for 3
hours to rock and roll.
On Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:30:05 GMT, shop...@stadiou.demon.co.uk
(Stephen Hopkins) wrote:
-----In article <34408ff1...@news.visi.com>,
-----cy...@visi.com (cyli) wrote:
-----
----->I agree with much of your post. Except the older man having sex
with
----->the boy. Why, as a responsible adult, did he not point out that
the
----->boy would be much better off with someone his own age? That is
where
----->most teens start in their sexual relationships.
-----
-----Is this also true for gay teens? Don't forget of course that if a
teenage=
----- boy has a crush on a same-age girl, he is not going to get
ridiculed if =
-----he makes an advance (or whatever) and she's not interested. The
same =
-----cannot be said for a gay boy making an advance on another boy he
might =
-----have a crush on. The potential fall-out of a gay teen being
"unmasked" by=
----- his peers I leave to your imagination.
-----
-----In another post, Martha Sprowles said that I must have a vested
interest =
-----in this case and the arguments I was putting (perhaps she read my
Web =
-----page). No, I don't have any such interest. I am just so sad and
so =
-----depressed at the society we seem to have created. What sort of
world is =
-----it where two 14-year-old boys, for instance, can't even hug each
other =
-----with any degree of affection without falling prey to the sniping
and =
-----innuendo and downright bullying of their peers? Where to feel a
deep =
-----sense of fondness and affection for your best friend and to
express that =
-----by snuggling each other, or even just hugging--HUGGING, I ask
you!--will =
-----the next day see you branded a "perverted fucking fag" and frozen
out of =
-----your hitherto secure circle of friends. It is this very society
that =
-----drives many gay teenagers to look outside their age group for
sexual =
-----relationships. Then when the CPS or whatever find out they brand
the =
-----boy's partner a "pedophile" and ship the teen off to the local
shrink or =
-----foster home or whatever. THAT is the real child abuse
and--again--it is =
-----gay teens who suffer the brunt of it. So the homophobia, plain
and =
-----simple, of a society that pays lip-service to "protecting" its
kids =
-----actually destroys the very kids whose best interests they claim
to have =
-----at heart.
-----
----->This was a boy with a
----->great drive to have a romance and a sexual relationship. He
could
----->surely have found someone in those very same chat rooms who was
more
----->legally and morally acceptable than an much older man.
-----
-----This begs the question: If he COULD have, why DIDN'T he?
-----
----->Travel was
----->obviously no problem to him, so that reason is out. I'm sure
he'd
----->have been able to even find a way to have met someone his own
age in a
----->motel or hotel for experimentation of a sexual kind.
Pre-register
----->under his dad's name, for instance, for the family and then show
up
----->saying he was dropped off while they went somewhere and please
help
----->with the luggage as mom and dad would expect it unpacked when
they
----->arrived? Meeting at a SF Con would be excellent cover, also.
-----
-----In an ideal situation, yes. But like I say, gay teens face
problems that =
-----their straight counterparts don't even think of.
-----
----->A responsible older advisor who wasn't cruising for young stuff
would
----->certainly never have gotten himself into sex with a 14 year old
under
----->these circumstances. Instead he'd have advised the teen of the
gay
----->resources open to him on the 'Net and in the outer world. In
fact,
----->he'd have warned him about the old guys who cruise and talked to
him
----->about disease control and sense in relationships, wouldn't he?
-----
-----I agree with much of this. "Mentor" is, I think, the word you
might be =
-----looking for. Such a responsible mentor could also permit
sleep-overs, and=
----- turn a blind-eye to any intimacies that might occur, thus
obviating the =
-----need for faffing around with motels etc.
-----
-------=20
-----Stephen Hopkins <shop...@stadiou.demon.co.uk> PGP keys are on
Web server=
----- at
-----http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk: 0x5085B1B9 (1024 bit), 0xBDF2F489
(2048 =
-----bit)
-----"It is a beautiful thing when a child hugs you." Anonymous,
published in =
-----the
-----Hite Report on the Family, page 328 of Sceptre paperback, ISBN =
-----0-340-63963-6
Martha Sprowles
cyli wrote:
>
> Well, we can tell you're not straight or were very very popular. Yar,
> like a geeky teen won't be ridculed for asking out a really hot babe.
> Wrong. He can be made quite the butt of jokes for the rest of his
> high school career if he steps out of line and looks too high.
> Whatever* his gender preference is.
>
> Sure, gays face more problems than straights. Why add to them by
> getting the age problem added on?
I am also made uncomfortable with the "love" aspect of man-boy love. It
seems to me that it is important in such a relationship (and I hope
Stephen will correct me if I'm wrong) that it be kind of father/son,
with the older lover serving as what Stephen referred to as a "mentor"
for the younger. I don't know of other types (not individual couples,
but "types"--like older man/younger woman) of relationships where the
idea of "mentoring" is so central to the meaning of the relationship.
It makes me uncomfortable because it is such an echo of a parent/child
situation, but with sex thrown in. I don't know if this happens, but I
don't get the idea that it is common for man-boy relationships to begin
when the boy notices that the man has an interest--a *genuine* interest,
not just something he does, hoping to attract boys--which the boy
shares, and the boy makes the move to get to know the man.
I also wonder about what the "getting-to-know-you" conversations that I
am familiar with, that happen before sex (usually--unless you want to
count adult heterosexual one-night stands, in which case you're talking
about sex, not love), are like between, say, a middle-aged man and a
ten-year-old boy. You will have a hard time convincing me that an adult
male who is not related to this child would be truly interested in the
child's enthusiasms, unless it is with an ulterior purpose.
Martha Sprowles
Melissa Hardie
Martha wrote:
>Yes, I did visit your web page. While I agree that gay teens have a
>much, much harder time of it than straight teens, I persist in my belief
>that it is improper for an older person to "initiate" either gay or
>straight teens into sexual activity. I don't want to sound cruel, but
>it's unfortunately part of being a gay teen that you have trouble
>finding someone your own age to date: many gay teens have not
>recognized their own sexual identity or are struggling against it and
>are not available.
>
>But *all* teenagers suffer terribly about sex, whether they're getting
>any or not. And just as I feel it won't kill a heterosexual teen to
>wait a while before indulging in sexual intercourse, I feel that
>homosexual teens can wait, too.
>
>You closing statement about what a shame we can't hug each other--well,
>I *do* hug my friends, male and female, and I kiss them, too, and I
>don't mind if other *adults* do the same, or if teenagers hug and kiss
>other teenagers.
Agreed. In particular, the very considerable and specific problems
experienced by gay and lesbian teenagers makes them a lot *more*
vulnerable to the reassurance that sexual interest from an adult seems to
provide. That is a very powerful component inthese relationships, I am
convinced. Unfortunately, it may not be until adulthood that the more
disturbing aspects of that dynamic become apparent.
However, I must say that I have known gay and lesbian teenagers who have
had happy and perfectly respectable relationships with adults. I don't
mean 14 year olds and 50 year olds, of course. I do think that whilst
some gay teens may be bewildered etc, some are very comfortable with their
sexuality, and, I honestly believe, more sexually mature than their age
might indicate. I'm thinking here more of 17 and 18 year olds, not kids.
I guess the problem with sexuality is that it doesn't conform to any ready
model. I cannot understand what interest an adult would have in a teen
other than sex -- to me, teenagers are kind of boring, if sweet, simply
because they haven't lived long enough to generate amusing anecdotes, and
so on -- and I wonder more about that.
To be honest, I have no problem with anything consenting peers do with
each other. If two twelve year olds want to experiment sexually with each
other, that's fine with me. I know a lot of people disagree with that,
though, and I understand why; I just don't agree. Sex is there. Hugs can
be sexy, I guess. In the long term, I agree, it is probably better to
wait, but I don't think that's ever going to persuade the kids with raging
hormones and powerful affections. I'm not talking about liquor induced,
exploitative sex, but the mapping of friendship and sexuality, which is
such a complex area. However, most teens should probably just "hone" their
masturbation skills -- they'll probably learn most about sex that way. ; )
Melissa
*******************************************
'Generosity, Generosity. Generosity & Generosity!' Allen Ginsberg
New address: melissa...@english.usyd.edu.au
Melissa Hardie
My current favourite poster, Cyli, wrote:
>Well, we can tell you're not straight or were very very popular. Yar,
like a geeky teen won't be ridculed for asking out a really hot babe.
Wrong. He can be made quite the butt of jokes for the rest of his
high school career if he steps out of line and looks too high.
Whatever* his gender preference is.
I think the original poster might have been referring to the outrageously
high figures for gay teen suicide, rather than teasing or even violence.
It *is* a very serious problem in many countries, including ours both. It
is often precipitated by precisely this scenario.
>And why, just as a wonderment, do we so seldom hear about lesbians
>running around hitting on chicken in a basket? But of so many gay
>males doing so?
Well, I guess there's a lot of answers to this one. One might be --
because you don't talk to the right people. : ) There was a protracted
case, in this country, where a teacher was gaoled for a lesbian
relationship with an under-age student. In general, she was supported by
the lesbian press, because she contended that this was a mutual,
consenting relationship. That is, until the student spoke out against the
teacher. Things got kind of complicated after that. It was a very
interesting, albeit disturbing, story.
I don't think there's a lot of interest in very young girls in lesbian
communitites. However, I suppose there are always exceptions.
I could also say that the characterisation of gay men as pedophilic is a
classically homophobic generalisation, and the kinds of homophobic
generalisations made of lesbians -- manhater, frustrated, sadistic &c --
are simply different. In other words, none of it has much to do with what
most gay men/lesbians do in the real world.
Sharonpo
I wrote: >> Martha,
>>
>> Thank you for this response, to which I cannot add a single thing of
>> substance.
>>
>> Men and children? <puke>
Martha responded:
>Add Women and children? <puke> and I'll join you.
>
>
ABSOLUTELY! <puke> on all this rhetorial bullshit about what a favor these
*adults* are doing to comfort and validate our children.
Sharon
Stephen Hopkins
Hi again,
=46irst of all, forgive me for not replying to this sooner. I have had a =
busy
couple of days, and thought it would be better to wait until I could =
write a
more considered response, rather than dashing out a few hasty paragraphs =
in
ten minutes. This post has turned out to be much longer than I originally
envisaged, so I ask your indulgence in taking the time to read it through
carefully.
In article <3442D0...@erols.com>,
Martha Sprowles <spro...@erols.com> wrote:
>Dear Stephen,
>
>For some reason, the parts of your post that I particularly wanted to
>address didn't come up in my "reply" window.
That could be because I was not limiting my line length to less than 80
characters per line. I have rectified this now.
>Yes, I did visit your web page. While I agree that gay teens have a
>much, much harder time of it than straight teens, I persist in my belief
>that it is improper for an older person to "initiate" either gay or
>straight teens into sexual activity. I don't want to sound cruel, but
>it's unfortunately part of being a gay teen that you have trouble
>finding someone your own age to date: many gay teens have not
>recognized their own sexual identity or are struggling against it and
>are not available.
As you say, this is unfortunately part of being a gay teen. But I think =
it
is more than that though. Shere Hite's "Hite Report on the Family: =
Growing
Up under Patriarchy" expounds some interesting theories as to societal
attitudes in general, in which gay teens especially are not very well
accomodated.
There seems to be a prevailing move in contemporary Western culture for
boys, as they approach puberty, to be socialised into "acceptable" male
behaviour, or to "become a man". As part of this, boys learn they have to=
be
tough, macho, totally into sports such as football (soccer), cricket, =
rugby
(in the US NFL, baseball), etc. They are also encouraged to take part in
group activities, help their friends fixing up cars, motorbikes and what
not. They are discouraged from doing "girlish" activities, and learn to
consider the opposite sex as "inferior" and mainly to be used as sex
objects.
Within this culture, intra-gender displays of affection are considered to=
be
"girlish", and shown only by sissies or wimps or faggots. Boys are =
stripped
of their natural emotions and feelings of empathy, internalise that they
should show no emotion except pleasure. The more sensitive of them suffer
enormously, being unable to stand by and watch while a group of boys =
proceed
to bash a dog's brains out, for instance.
I think this archetypal family model makes it especially hard for gay =
teens
to adjust to the harsh realities of the world around them. The messages =
they
receive are that what they perceive to be the very core of their being is
not only bad, but deserving of emotional and physical retribution. Set
against this backdrop, the presense of a sympathetic, understanding =
friend
or potential partner (of whatever age) may seem to many like the pot of =
gold
at the end of the rainbow, an oasis in the desert, a refuge or bolt-hole =
to
turn to.
A conversation not a million miles removed from this one took place on =
other
newsgroups a couple of years ago. A teenage boy (then 15) provided =
powerful
anecdotal evidence of his relationship with a man in his 40s. For him, =
his
friend fulfilled very well the role of mentor. The man had long since
reconciled himself to his sexual identity, accepted it and had no =
problems
with it. Thus he was well placed to provide that stability to an =
adolescent
who was trying to negotiate the rocky road through adolescence. They
sometimes had sex but this was by no means a significant part of their
relationship. The boy also stated that he had had a few sexual encounters
with age mates, and those encounters had proved very unsatisfactory =
because
the boys concerned were still struggling to come to terms with their =
sexual
orientation.
So I certainly accept that intergenerational relationships have more than
enough potential to be problematic, although as the above example =
suggests
it is not inexorable that those problems will manifest themselves.
If one is prepared to accept, for the purposes of argument, that there =
might
be a grain of truth in the above, the next point would appear to be what =
is
the best way of addressing such relationships in such a way that provides
young people with the legal protection they require to stave off =
predatory
behaviour, while not disrupting those that come nowhere near meeting the
perpetrator/victim model of psychiatrists and the "legal fiction" model =
of
laws that do not recognise consent on grounds of age.
Obviously, repealing en masse legislation governing sexual activity
involving young people would be totally unacceptable, as it would subject
them to the requirements of the more general rules of consent, rape etc.
which while fine for adults are less than perfect for youngsters. If
child-care professionals had the discretion to adopt a "hands off" =
approach
where intervention would serve no purpose then so far so good. However,
various Federal legislation mandates social workers, teachers and other
professionals to report--on pain of losing a substantial chunk of Federal
appropriations--any suspected case to the authorities, who are in turn
mandated (or themselves all to eager--especially if the DA is up for
re-election and decides to turn it into a campaign issue) to prosecute =
the
case along the lines of the offender/victim dichotomy. Those =
professionals
who believe that breaking up a particular relationship would do far more
harm than good find that their hands are tied by the law, and their
department's own fiscal needs.
I therefore believe the best way of avoiding bungled attempts on behalf =
of
law enforcement officers such as the one that arguably led Sam Manzie to =
do
what he did is to amend the law to give child-care workers etc. the
discretion not to act whan they feel it is in the teenager's best =
interests
not to. Note the terminology: when they *positively* feel that it *is* in
the *best* interests of the teenager not to intervene; not when they =
*don't*
think it is in the best interests of the teenager *to* intervene. There =
is a
subtle difference. Also note I am talking specifically about teenagers
here--I feel it is slightly different where pre-pubescent kids are
concerned. This also has to be addressed, although I do not propose to do=
so
at the present time.
If, when presented with a specific case study concerning which a decision
how to proceed was pending, one was able to overcome their own discomfort
over the case details and decide solely on the grounds of what was best =
for
the individual concerned, unhampered by public pressure or legal
requirements, then such instances could be dealt with on a case-by-case
basis. This would still maintain the high level of protection available =
for
use by the authorities to protect kids from abuse, while not interfering
when all was well. Of course, given that the teenager had his head =
screwed
on properly, his own feelings and wishes, devoid of any coersion or =
negative
influence or pressure from the older person, should prevail unless there =
was
some overwhelming reason to override them.
Ideally, of course, the social climate should permit gay teenagers to
negotiate the sexual terrain among themselves, without feeling the need =
to
turn to older mentors for sexual experimentation. In order for this to
happen, the climate has to change from that which over three thousand
readers have described in Shere Hite's aforementioned work. If it is at
puberty that boys get socialised into certain modes of behaviour, then =
that
leaves between five and six years, from start of school at age five, for
schools to instill good moral values into kids. In this sphere I do think
that schools have some part to play in producing socially as well as
academically well educated and adjusted individuals. Clearly a lot of =
homes
fail this role, so schools must take it over.
Schools can achieve this by:
- giving kids open, full, frank and honest sex education before they
reach puberty.
- teaching kids to be honest about themselves, to not deny their =
feelings
and emotions.
- teaching kids that there is nothing wrong with crying, and encouraging
them to cry when they feel unhappy.
- cultivating an atmosphere of acceptance of oneself and everyone else.
- killing the ghettoisation of sexual minority "cultures". Rather than =
each
sub-group isolating itself in its own clique, spread the notion that =
many
forms of sexual activity are carried out by most people at some time =
or
another. This erasal of gays and lesbians as distinctly separate =
groups
would end the isolation many of them currently feel. If it was =
accepted
that a teenage boy could make a pass at another boy he fancied, =
without
the world coming to an end if the other boy wasn't interested, this =
would
make it much easier for those who wanted to experiment sexually among
their own gender.
As to the notion that it is wrong for adults to initiate minors into =
sexual
activity, Jane Rule poses an interesting question "If defecating and =
eating
were left to the same secrecy and chance we might face the same problems
with basic sanitation and nutrition that we do with sex. When the =
relatively
simple task of teaching table manners takes so many years, why do we =
assume
that sexual manners need not be taught at all? [...] It takes as little
imagination to know that a child's sexual appetite is different from an
adult's as it does to figure out that a newborn baby can't eat an apple =
or a
steak. We don't therefore refuse to feed an infant."
The complete article from which this was quoted may be found at
http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk/Features/Chickens/teaching_sexuality.html
Rule also says, "[Children's] development in sexuality should be gradual
until they come to the choices of commitment in relationships, in =
parenting,
not as sex-starved barbarians willing to barter anything for the =
experience
so long forbidden, not as infantile, gluttonous, guilty and dangerously
stupid, but as warm, sexually intelligent human beings."
Dr. Edward Brongersma, J.D. gives two examples that illustrate Rule's =
point.
I quote from the Journal of Homosexuality vol. 20, nr. 1/2:
[start quote]
In such a lasting relationship, affection, care and tenderness can flower
and fuse together. A boy of seventeen whom I interviewed about his =
five-year
relationship with a middle-age man said, "He taught me the meaning of =
love."
This experience of integrating lust and love may keep the boy from
developing our culture's infamous madonna/whore complex. In a Dutch
broadcast about pedophilia a few years ago a 15-year-old boy told the
following story. At thirteen he had begun to have sex with girls, and =
that
to him meant a girl on her back, him climbing on top of her, shoving his
penis in her and thrusting it back and forth until he came. That was all.
Then at a football game he met an attractive forty-year-old man. The boy
accepted the man's invitation to accompany him home, well aware that the =
man
was sexually interested in him but curious about what might take place. =
They
had sex that afternoon, but the way it happened was a revelation to him. =
He
had never experienced such tenderness, such concern for his feelings, so
much respect, even reverence. He finished his story by saying, "I'm =
really
100% heterosexual. After a couple of years of making love with this man =
I'll
be too old for his tastes and then I'll certainly go back to girls again.
But when that happens I'll treat them completely differently than I did
before, when all I cared about was my own physical satisfaction. I've now
learned that sex is so much better if you do it with love and =
consideration
for the other person." In the event, things turned out exactly as he had
foreseen. Just as in the case of the 17-year-old described above, he is =
now
a happily married man - and neither have ever forgotten their former =
lovers,
who have remained their close and trusted friends.
[end quote]
>But *all* teenagers suffer terribly about sex, whether they're getting
>any or not. And just as I feel it won't kill a heterosexual teen to
>wait a while before indulging in sexual intercourse, I feel that
>homosexual teens can wait, too.
I think that is a matter for the individual.
>You closing statement about what a shame we can't hug each other--well,
>I *do* hug my friends, male and female, and I kiss them, too, and I
>don't mind if other *adults* do the same, or if teenagers hug and kiss
>other teenagers.
Your attitude here is commendable, and I sincerely wish everyone thought =
the
same. Considering your remark that you have a fifteen-year-old son, one
might reasonably assume that you are a few years older than my (nearly) =
23
years. My mother, for instance, also freely hugs both other men and =
women,
but that is both given and received as a hug of Christian love and
friendship. I know a very nice woman in her middle age, of whom my mother=
is
godmother to her granddaughter. We always hug each other long, hard and
warmly, and it feels very satisfying, even though there is no erotic
overtone to it. But unfortunately, Martha, I can assure you that the boys=
I
was at school with, and the guys I work with now (mostly aged betwen 16 =
and
23), would not see it like that at all. I make no bones at work of the =
fact
that I am at the very least bisexual, if not gay, and have to put up with=
a
fair bit of (mostly good natured) teasing about it. A couple of weeks ago=
a
17-year-old boy pushed it too far, which goaded me into filling a pot =
with
water and soaking him.
While you or I may well have no problems with same sex displays of =
affection
among teens, within their age group such attitudes are in a minority. =
From
my own experience, I can say it is a sad fact that among teenagers, =
almost
any intra-gender display of affection is tantamount to erotic display of
homosexual love or lust. Perhaps if you were to ask your son, he might =
tell
you how his peer group views such things.
--=20
Stephen Hopkins <shop...@stadiou.demon.co.uk> PGP keys are on Web server=
at
http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk: 0x5085B1B9 (1024 bit), 0xBDF2F489 (2048 =
bit)
"It is a beautiful thing when a child hugs you." Anonymous, published in =
the
Hite Report on the Family, page 328 of Sceptre paperback, ISBN =
0-340-63963-6
Martha Sprowles
Dear Stephen,
I am not convinced that it is *ever* a good thing for a teenager, gay or
straight, to be initiated into sexual activity by an adult. I do not
have a vested interest in this position and therefore think it is more
creditable than your own. I don't mean this to sound snotty and
condescending, but you do apparently have personal and selfish reasons
to espouse the position you do.
I do agree with you fully on this:
>
> Schools can achieve this by:
>
> - giving kids open, full, frank and honest sex education before they
> reach puberty.
> - teaching kids to be honest about themselves, to not deny their feelings
> and emotions.
> - teaching kids that there is nothing wrong with crying, and encouraging
> them to cry when they feel unhappy.
> - cultivating an atmosphere of acceptance of oneself and everyone else.
> - killing the ghettoisation of sexual minority "cultures". Rather than each
> sub-group isolating itself in its own clique, spread the notion that many
> forms of sexual activity are carried out by most people at some time or
> another. This erasal of gays and lesbians as distinctly separate groups
> would end the isolation many of them currently feel.
Right up to here: If it was accepted
> that a teenage boy could make a pass at another boy he fancied, without
> the world coming to an end if the other boy wasn't interested, this would
> make it much easier for those who wanted to experiment sexually among
> their own gender.
As a volunteer on a rape hotline for an agency that does a lot of
in-school training to recognize and deal with sexual harassment (both
straight and gay), I have to say to you that I do not believe it is
appropriate for either gender to "make a pass" at either gender during
school, or anyplace else, for that matter. If a gay boy wants to *ask
out* another boy, that's fine with me, just as straight boys and girls
could ask each other out.
>
> As to the notion that it is wrong for adults to initiate minors into sexual
> activity, Jane Rule poses an interesting question "If defecating and eating
> were left to the same secrecy and chance we might face the same problems
> with basic sanitation and nutrition that we do with sex. When the relatively
> simple task of teaching table manners takes so many years, why do we assume
> that sexual manners need not be taught at all? [...] It takes as little
> imagination to know that a child's sexual appetite is different from an
> adult's as it does to figure out that a newborn baby can't eat an apple or a
> steak. We don't therefore refuse to feed an infant."
Sorry. I don't buy it. Appropriate physical affection for children and
teenagers comes from loving parents first, then from peers in a dating
situation: that's how kids learn about sexuality, not from older men
who are satiating their own desires at the same time.
>
> The complete article from which this was quoted may be found at
> http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk/Features/Chickens/teaching_sexuality.html
>
> Rule also says, "[Children's] development in sexuality should be gradual
> until they come to the choices of commitment in relationships, in parenting,
> not as sex-starved barbarians willing to barter anything for the experience
> so long forbidden, not as infantile, gluttonous, guilty and dangerously
> stupid, but as warm, sexually intelligent human beings."
>
> Dr. Edward Brongersma, J.D. gives two examples that illustrate Rule's point.
> I quote from the Journal of Homosexuality vol. 20, nr. 1/2:
>
> [start quote]
>
> In such a lasting relationship, affection, care and tenderness can flower
> and fuse together. A boy of seventeen whom I interviewed about his five-year
> relationship with a middle-age man said, "He taught me the meaning of love."
> This experience of integrating lust and love may keep the boy from
> developing our culture's infamous madonna/whore complex. In a Dutch
> broadcast about pedophilia a few years ago a 15-year-old boy told the
> following story. At thirteen he had begun to have sex with girls, and that
> to him meant a girl on her back, him climbing on top of her, shoving his
> penis in her and thrusting it back and forth until he came. That was all.
> Then at a football game he met an attractive forty-year-old man. The boy
> accepted the man's invitation to accompany him home, well aware that the man
> was sexually interested in him but curious about what might take place. They
> had sex that afternoon, but the way it happened was a revelation to him. He
> had never experienced such tenderness, such concern for his feelings, so
> much respect, even reverence. He finished his story by saying, "I'm really
> 100% heterosexual. After a couple of years of making love with this man I'll
> be too old for his tastes and then I'll certainly go back to girls again.
> But when that happens I'll treat them completely differently than I did
> before, when all I cared about was my own physical satisfaction. I've now
> learned that sex is so much better if you do it with love and consideration
> for the other person." In the event, things turned out exactly as he had
> foreseen. Just as in the case of the 17-year-old described above, he is now
> a happily married man - and neither have ever forgotten their former lovers,
> who have remained their close and trusted friends.
>
> [end quote]
>
> >But *all* teenagers suffer terribly about sex, whether they're getting
> >any or not. And just as I feel it won't kill a heterosexual teen to
> >wait a while before indulging in sexual intercourse, I feel that
> >homosexual teens can wait, too.
>
> I think that is a matter for the individual.
>
> >You closing statement about what a shame we can't hug each other--well,
> >I *do* hug my friends, male and female, and I kiss them, too, and I
> >don't mind if other *adults* do the same, or if teenagers hug and kiss
> >other teenagers.
>
> Your attitude here is commendable, and I sincerely wish everyone thought the
> same. Considering your remark that you have a fifteen-year-old son, one
> might reasonably assume that you are a few years older than my (nearly) 23
> years. My mother, for instance, also freely hugs both other men and women,
> but that is both given and received as a hug of Christian love and
> friendship. I know a very nice woman in her middle age, of whom my mother is
> godmother to her granddaughter. We always hug each other long, hard and
> warmly, and it feels very satisfying, even though there is no erotic
> overtone to it. But unfortunately, Martha, I can assure you that the boys I
> was at school with, and the guys I work with now (mostly aged betwen 16 and
> 23), would not see it like that at all. I make no bones at work of the fact
> that I am at the very least bisexual, if not gay, and have to put up with a
> fair bit of (mostly good natured) teasing about it. A couple of weeks ago a
> 17-year-old boy pushed it too far, which goaded me into filling a pot with
> water and soaking him.
>
> While you or I may well have no problems with same sex displays of affection
> among teens, within their age group such attitudes are in a minority. From
> my own experience, I can say it is a sad fact that among teenagers, almost
> any intra-gender display of affection is tantamount to erotic display of
> homosexual love or lust. Perhaps if you were to ask your son, he might tell
> you how his peer group views such things.
>
> --
> Stephen Hopkins <shop...@stadiou.demon.co.uk> PGP keys are on Web server at
> http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk: 0x5085B1B9 (1024 bit), 0xBDF2F489 (2048 bit)
> "It is a beautiful thing when a child hugs you." Anonymous, published in the
> Hite Report on the Family, page 328 of Sceptre paperback, ISBN 0-340-63963-6
glas
Stephen Hopkins wrote:
<snip>
Gee Stephen, that was one of the most lengthy and well thought-out
justifications for pedophilia that I have ever read. Still wrong tho,
and just another excuse for taking advantage of a child in a sexual
way. I sure hope that you don't practice what you preach because a
child molester by any other name is still a child molester.
glas
Bored?...Try this -
http://www.interaxs.net/pub/glas/
Martha Sprowles
Stephen Hopkins wrote:
>
> In article <344370...@erols.com>,
> Martha Sprowles <spro...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >I am also made uncomfortable with the "love" aspect of man-boy love. It
> >seems to me that it is important in such a relationship (and I hope
> >Stephen will correct me if I'm wrong) that it be kind of father/son,
> >with the older lover serving as what Stephen referred to as a "mentor"
> >for the younger. I don't know of other types (not individual couples,
> >but "types"--like older man/younger woman) of relationships where the
> >idea of "mentoring" is so central to the meaning of the relationship.
>
> aware, where mentoring is so central. It is open to speculation what are the
> particular circumstances unique to MBL relationships that give rise to the
> central position of mentoring, and why this isn't so prevalant in other
> types of relationships. I have a case-study of just such a relationship,
> which I have tacked on to the end of this post. Its author assures the
> reader it is a true recounting of events. While mildly sexually explicit it
> is in no sense "one-handed reading", and it gives quite a good insight into
> what REALLY happens in a MBL relationship.
>
> >It makes me uncomfortable because it is such an echo of a parent/child
> >situation, but with sex thrown in. I don't know if this happens, but I
> >don't get the idea that it is common for man-boy relationships to begin
> >when the boy notices that the man has an interest--a *genuine* interest,
> >not just something he does, hoping to attract boys--which the boy
> >shares, and the boy makes the move to get to know the man.
>
> deeply suppressed, erotic interest in their own children extend to other
> situations which bear similar resemblance?
Of course, that's entirely possible. I am certain that the (as far as I
know) universal incest taboo must have its roots in something real. I
do not, however, see what difference this makes to your argument in
favor of allowing adult-child love relationships.
<snip of excerpts from Hite Report>
<snip>
> Teaching Phillip
>
> My story is about the things I taught Phillip, the things I
> taught him in these last four years of eleven through fourteen.
<snip>
I'm sorry, Stephen, but you lost my sympathy at this point. This is all
wrong, and I'm not talking about the sexual aspect. The idea that some
boy, somewhere, *needs* to have an adult male "mentor" so that he can
know that he is "loved," is such perverted bullshit. I mean, really.
Forget the sex stuff. I'm not even considering that. You do
not---really, you don't---have any idea of what boys are like and what
they need, even of what they want. What you know is what *you* want,
maybe even need, and you are very good at rationalizing this
"relationship" you dream of with a boy, without any idea of what this
would do to a child.
I do not approve of any kind of "love" relationship outside of family
for any child, and by child I mean 18 years or younger. You are kidding
yourself if you think what you are advocating is good for anyone but
you.
Martha A. Sprowles
Stephen Hopkins
In article <3446BE28...@interaxs.net>,
glas <gl...@interaxs.net> wrote:
>Stephen Hopkins wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>Gee Stephen, that was one of the most lengthy and well thought-out
>justifications for pedophilia that I have ever read. Still wrong tho,
>and just another excuse for taking advantage of a child in a sexual
>way.
Lengthly and well thought-out justification for paedophilia? Gee, I =
suppose
I ought to be flattered. Except for one tiny point: What we're talking =
about
is not in fact paedophilia at all. At least, not according to the =
American
Psychiatric Association. Their Diagnostical and Statistical Manual, the
bible of American psychiatrists and which the British equivalent models
itself on, defines paedophilia basically as a primary sexual preference =
for
a pre-pubescent child. And a 15-year-old is hardly a child, except for =
the
purposes of some laws. Has it not struck anyone that teenagers can be
considered "children" for the purposes of laws that restrict their =
freedoms,
rights and liberties, but adults for the purposes of laws that apply
punitive sanctions and punishments?
Let me make my position clear: There is NO justification for the anal or
vaginal penetration of a pre-pubescent by an adult, for the simple reason
that an adult's genitals would very likely cause ruptures, fissures, and
other physical damage, and in general the law is right to prohibit such
acts. But a balance has to be struck between that one the one hand, and
non-penetrative sex-play and sexual instruction. For instance, is =
teaching a
hyperactive child how to masturbate on a scale comparative with =
penetrating
the same child, and deserving of similar punishment? Of course not.
Some criminal codes permit non-penetrative sex between anyone aged 14 and
up, and penetrative sex between anyone aged 18 and up, which seems far =
more
sensible and acknowledgitive of physical realities than a blanket
prohibition of sex of any kind for anyone below the age of 18.
>I sure hope that you don't practice what you preach because a
>child molester by any other name is still a child molester.
Precisely. "Child" and "molestation" are two terms that are very open to
interpretation. Try this exercise: Define "child molestation" as follows:
"Child molestation is the committal of (list of qualifying acts) against
anyone below the age of n." Fill in the blanks, and we can discuss what
does and does not constitute child molestation. Even this definition is =
not
perfect: Does, for instance, consensual, penetrative anal sex between two
14-year-old boys constitute child molestation? And if so, who's molesting
who? (This last point is not academic--a 12-year-old New Jersey boy who
groped his 9-year-old brother in the bath tub was forced to register as a
"sex offender"!)
BTW, just for the record, I have never, as an adult, been sexually =
involved
with anyone below the age of 18, and I don't intend to start now.
Stephen Hopkins
In article <3446AA...@erols.com>,
Martha Sprowles <spro...@erols.com> wrote:
>Dear Stephen,
>
>I am not convinced that it is *ever* a good thing for a teenager, gay or
>straight, to be initiated into sexual activity by an adult. I do not
>have a vested interest in this position and therefore think it is more
>creditable than your own. I don't mean this to sound snotty and
>condescending, but you do apparently have personal and selfish reasons
>to espouse the position you do.
And may I ask what those reasons are, please? Sorry to pick up on this, =
but
this is now the second time you have said this and I have to address it.
As a British (and thus European) citizen I have the absolute right to =
live
in any of the (currently fifteen) countries that are signatories to the =
1957
Treaty of Rome and subsequent treaties and thus members of the European
Union. Without thinking about it I recall that Spain has an AOC of 12. In
many countries it is 15, and the AOC in Holland is technically 16, =
although
when a person between the age of 12 and 15 is concerned the police can =
only
act if asked to by the young person themselves or their parent/guardian. =
So
if, as you said, I had "personal and sefish reasons" to espouse the =
position
I do, I probably would not be here now, but instead in a country free of =
the
deficits the UK and US are saddled with and against which I am =
campaigning.
>I do agree with you fully on this:
>
>>=20
>> Schools can achieve this by:
>>=20
>> - giving kids open, full, frank and honest sex education before they
>> reach puberty.
>> - teaching kids to be honest about themselves, to not deny their =
feelings
>> and emotions.
>> - teaching kids that there is nothing wrong with crying, and =
encouraging
>> them to cry when they feel unhappy.
>> - cultivating an atmosphere of acceptance of oneself and everyone =
else.
>> - killing the ghettoisation of sexual minority "cultures". Rather =
than each
>> sub-group isolating itself in its own clique, spread the notion =
that many
>> forms of sexual activity are carried out by most people at some =
time or
>> another. This erasal of gays and lesbians as distinctly separate =
groups
>> would end the isolation many of them currently feel.
>
>
>Right up to here: If it was accepted
>> that a teenage boy could make a pass at another boy he fancied, =
without
>> the world coming to an end if the other boy wasn't interested, this=
would
>> make it much easier for those who wanted to experiment sexually =
among
>> their own gender.
>
>As a volunteer on a rape hotline for an agency that does a lot of
>in-school training to recognize and deal with sexual harassment (both
>straight and gay), I have to say to you that I do not believe it is
>appropriate for either gender to "make a pass" at either gender during
>school, or anyplace else, for that matter. If a gay boy wants to *ask
>out* another boy, that's fine with me, just as straight boys and girls
>could ask each other out.
Okay, point taken. I agree with you here, and your replacing "make a =
pass"
with "ask out" is really what I meant myself. Sorry for using clumsy
terminology.
>> As to the notion that it is wrong for adults to initiate minors into =
sexual
>> activity, Jane Rule poses an interesting question "If defecating and =
eating
>> were left to the same secrecy and chance we might face the same =
problems
>> with basic sanitation and nutrition that we do with sex. When the =
relatively
>> simple task of teaching table manners takes so many years, why do we =
assume
>> that sexual manners need not be taught at all? [...] It takes as =
little
>> imagination to know that a child's sexual appetite is different from =
an
>> adult's as it does to figure out that a newborn baby can't eat an =
apple or a
>> steak. We don't therefore refuse to feed an infant."
>
>Sorry. I don't buy it. Appropriate physical affection for children and
>teenagers comes from loving parents first, then from peers in a dating
>situation: that's how kids learn about sexuality, not from older men
>who are satiating their own desires at the same time.
In an ideal world, yes. In an ideal world all kids would know and love, =
and
be known and loved by, both parents and both sets of grandparents and =
other
relationships; all kids could date who they wanted, including gay kids;
there would be no kids starved of affection, attention and love at home,
desperate for such affection and love; and there would therefore be no =
need
for boy-lovers to step in and provide what those kids' parents should =
have
given in the first place. Life would be so much simpler if homosexuality,
paedophilia etc. did not exist and all parents upheld the highest =
possible
standards in performing their functions as parents. But we do not live in=
an
ideal world. Many kids are starved of love. Many kids have fathers who
physically abuse their mothers and spend all the money for house and =
child
care on booze and tobacco. Many kids turn to boy-lovers for the love,
affection, attention they aren't getting at home and desparately crave. =
And
many boy-lovers never behave in any sexual way at all with the kids they
come in contact with, but want for nothing more than to help out where
needed, and provide a refuge, a port in the storm: the "mentor" =
relationship
referred to in another post in this thread. As someone put it ages ago: =
"A
hundred years from now, it will not matter what car I drove, the house I
lived in, or the size of my bank account, but the world may be different
because I was important in the life of a child."
--=20
Stephen Hopkins <shop...@stadiou.demon.co.uk> PGP keys are on Web server=
at
http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk: 0x5085B1B9 (1024 bit), 0xBDF2F489 (2048 =
bit)
"It is a beautiful thing when a child hugs you." Anonymous, published in =
the
Hite Report on the Family, page 328 of Sceptre paperback, ISBN =
0-340-63963-6
Stephen Hopkins
In article <344370...@erols.com>,
Martha Sprowles <spro...@erols.com> wrote:
>cyli wrote:
>>=20
>> Well, we can tell you're not straight or were very very popular. Yar,
>> like a geeky teen won't be ridculed for asking out a really hot babe.
>> Wrong. He can be made quite the butt of jokes for the rest of his
>> high school career if he steps out of line and looks too high.
>> Whatever* his gender preference is.
>>=20
>> Sure, gays face more problems than straights. Why add to them by
>> getting the age problem added on?
I think if there is mutual adoration, friendship, romance, lust, love, =
etc.
between a teenage boy and an older male, then whether the age gap is a
problem or not is best left for them to determine. (I am not, of course,
talking about the older person persuing an unwilling or reluctant boy.) I
agree, cyli: Gays DO face more problems than straights. So if a gay teen
finds happiness in the partner of his choice, why add to his problems by
imposing the adult concept of "the age problem" where in fact no problem
exists?
Martha:
>I am also made uncomfortable with the "love" aspect of man-boy love. It
>seems to me that it is important in such a relationship (and I hope
>Stephen will correct me if I'm wrong) that it be kind of father/son,
>with the older lover serving as what Stephen referred to as a "mentor"
>for the younger. I don't know of other types (not individual couples,
>but "types"--like older man/younger woman) of relationships where the
>idea of "mentoring" is so central to the meaning of the relationship.
I must be honest, the man-boy scenario is the only one of which I also am
aware, where mentoring is so central. It is open to speculation what are =
the
particular circumstances unique to MBL relationships that give rise to =
the
central position of mentoring, and why this isn't so prevalant in other
types of relationships. I have a case-study of just such a relationship,
which I have tacked on to the end of this post. Its author assures the
reader it is a true recounting of events. While mildly sexually explicit =
it
is in no sense "one-handed reading", and it gives quite a good insight =
into
what REALLY happens in a MBL relationship.
>It makes me uncomfortable because it is such an echo of a parent/child
>situation, but with sex thrown in. I don't know if this happens, but I
>don't get the idea that it is common for man-boy relationships to begin
>when the boy notices that the man has an interest--a *genuine* interest,
>not just something he does, hoping to attract boys--which the boy
>shares, and the boy makes the move to get to know the man.
I don't wish to give offence here, but could the parent's fear of their =
own,
deeply suppressed, erotic interest in their own children extend to other
situations which bear similar resemblance?
=46ar from spurious, this is an important topic that should be =
considered. For
instance, The Hite Report on the Family (see citation below) mentions
parental erotic feelings for children:
Mothers Talk About Their "Sexual" Feelings for Their Children
A small minority of parents are aware of, or willing to discusss, erotic
feelings they may have for their children:
"I'm surprised at the sexual pleasure I feel playing with my
three-year-old daughter, and she sometimes seems to be mocking =
intercourse
when she mounts my husband. It's okay as long as she's young, but I can =
feel
our self-consciousness increasing with her age."
"With my kids, yes, I'm turned on to them. I try to stay accepting of
their feelings, while encouraging them to explore with friends their own
age. We've talked about people, bodies, having babies, contraception and
abortions and know we'll keep on talking. I have a harder time accepting =
my
own feelings of being turned on to them. I have two boys, ages five and
seven."
"I have felt sexual feelings when I breast-fed both my daughter and =
son. I
was startled at first. But nursing is such an intimate thing that it =
isn't
really that surprising, I suppose. It feels good. (Also nursing and sex =
both
release oxytocin, I found out.) My son, who is four months old, always
giggles when I clean his penis. I try not to overdo it."
"I've had sexual feelings for all members of the family. I love them, =
it's
hard to separate love from sexual feelings."
"I have sexual feelings towards my daughter--mixed with intense love. I
think it's okay if I don't act on it."
Fathers also express these feelings:
"I find myself aroused by close physical playing and loving with my
two-year-old sons. I am curious about incest and the origin of the =
taboos,
and if it might be alright to make love with my sons someday."
"Recently my eight-year-old son asked if we could get into bed together
naked and cuddle, so we did. It was really fine. We both got erections, =
but
that just seemed a natural thing to happen. There was no sexual activity,=
it
was just a warm happy time.
"It's a beautiful thing when a child hugs you."
Sisters' and brothers' erotic awareness of each other
Sisters and brothers too sometimes have sexual thoughts about each other;
are these curiousity, or more onimous?
"I have had sexual feelings for my sister who is a few years younger. I=
do
not think too much about it--obviously I am not going to act on any =
feelings
I might have. The feelings are much more a desire for increased closeness
than a desire for any sexual relationship."
"There were some feelings of attraction for my older brother (three =
years
older) during my adolescense. We were very afraid of each other and =
hardly
communicated--probably for this reason. He and my younger brother (age
fourteen-sixteen) of peeping in at me while I dressed. Now I wish we =
could
have been more comfortable about our curiosity."
"I have a younger sister who is very beautiful, and I have had =
fantasies
of having sex with her. I've never told her this, because I think she =
would
be upset. She is very beautiful and her body is wonderful to look at."
"I'm crazy for my older brother! If he weren't my older brother, I =
would
like to have sex with him--my fantasies go wild over my brother."
Sensuality, Eroticism and Sexuality in the Family
Why is childhood sexuality repressed? Is it necessary for the incest =
taboo?
=46or decency? To uphold our values?
These two fathers describe how they observe their young children, or
interact with them in a sensual way:
"I have two daughters. The younger one was having orgasms when she was
three or four years old from holding her Teddy bear between her legs. My
wife and I left the room. Childhood's sexuality is irrepressible, but =
most
parents don't know anything about it (and only a little bit about their
children in general)."
"I have a daughter, seven, and a son, nine. When _I_ was that age, I =
only
got a book from my mother--_Being Born_--which she read to my sister and
brother and me. It was stupid! Now my wife and I are trying to raise our
kids differently, to understand that responsible sexual behaviour is part=
of
being human. And also to give them enough affection. We snuggle together
while reading or watching TV. We often shower together. They know what =
human
bodies look like. We frequently bathe together--all of us!"
>I also wonder about what the "getting-to-know-you" conversations that I
>am familiar with, that happen before sex (usually--unless you want to
>count adult heterosexual one-night stands, in which case you're talking
>about sex, not love), are like between, say, a middle-aged man and a
>ten-year-old boy. You will have a hard time convincing me that an adult
>male who is not related to this child would be truly interested in the
>child's enthusiasms, unless it is with an ulterior purpose.
I think I'll leave answering this point to the unnamed narrator below, =
who
below recounts his relationship with a boy.
--=20
Stephen Hopkins <shop...@stadiou.demon.co.uk> PGP keys are on Web server=
at
http://www.stadiou.demon.co.uk: 0x5085B1B9 (1024 bit), 0xBDF2F489 (2048 =
bit)
"It is a beautiful thing when a child hugs you." Anonymous, published in =
the
Hite Report on the Family, page 328 of Sceptre paperback, ISBN =
0-340-63963-6
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Newsgroups: alt.sex.stories,alt.sex.stories.gay
=46rom: an24...@anon.penet.fi (O-twist)
Reply-To: an24...@anon.penet.fi
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:50:09 UTC
Subject: Teaching Phillip (Mb,Love,cons)
This story was not written by me. It was submitted to me anonymously
when I made inquiries about Man/Boy Love being beneficial to all
involved. The writer assured me that it is in fact a true story,
as well as his desire for me to post it, never the less for the
purpose of vague legalities and for the protection of my rapidly
eroding rights please consider the following disclaimer.
Do NOT read any further if you are under 18 or if you are not an
adult according to the laws of your state or country. Do NOT read
this if you are easily offended by a real life situation that goes
against your particular upbringing or beliefs or if you are a
member of the radical religious right who is not open minded enough
to consider merit in any other living relationship other than those
within your specific parameters. So if you are offended by
narratives of intergenerational love, do not be a hypocrite by
continuing to read.
Teaching Phillip
My story is about the things I taught Phillip, the things I
taught him in these last four years of eleven through fourteen.
Before anything, I must say that meeting Phillip was a dream come
true. As a boy lover, I don't necessarily think being a mentor
AND a lover are mutually inclusive. I think a man can be a men-
tor without being a lover, and indeed some boys (and men) wish
for nothing more, but you can't be a boy's lover without being
his mentor. Some boys desperately require both.
I've always seen making love as the culmination of being IN
LOVE. Making love to a boy was a constant but distant dream that
I thought might possibly be unobtainable. More importantly at
the time, was my desire to teach things to a boy. Not just any
boy, but a boy that needed me. I wanted to teach things that
would make life easier, and make him happy, things that would
last a lifetime, things that I thought were important in my life.
Maybe it was the closest I thought I would ever come to being a
big brother or father, those roles that most boy lovers are
cheated out of by society. I guess I wanted to leave my mark on
the world and let one single boy know he was truly loved.
Thus came Phillip, a boy to carry on after me, and it's
great to feel so proud of another person and put their life
before yours. Before this boy I lived in melancholy regret that
I would never get the chance to teach the boy of my dreams, never-
mind make love to him. I was wrong on both counts. You never
know what roads life will take you down, and I'll never know why
I was so lucky to find a boy like him.
When I first met him, he wasn't used to being noticed by an
adult. In fact he was a camouflage expert that seemed to blend
with his environment. I taught him he was special, because he
surely was. I taught him to stop apoligizing... "it was fine the
way you threw the ball,.. You're not too skinny,.. I don't think
you're weird"
He didn't think much of himself. I on the other hand
thought he was wonderful. He had a certain sparkle in his eyes,
and he seemed to be in constant vigil, listening to every word
around him. He seemed very reserved for one so young. At eleven
years old, I couldn't help but get the impression that he seemed
to be waiting to make his mark on the world.
I couldn't help but get excited about his lean body, perfect
skin, and those beautiful eyes, but as I got to know Phillip that
first year, I resolved that our relationship would never be
sexual. He seemed too insecure to handle something so complex,
or so I thought. Time would prove me wrong. I have observed
first hand the complexity of emotions boys must deal with to love
a man, and I bitterly resent society for making it so. It's such
a waste of love.
I taught him to preserver, even if he didn't get it right
the first time, or the fiftieth time. He developed a truly ac-
curate fast-ball for a twelve year old. He lost much of his shy-
ness with other adults and older kids as time progressed. I en-
couraged his interactions. He also learned how wonderful a real
shoulder rub was, how just the right pressure after a long hard
day could just about make you melt. Some might think me a cun-
ning opportunist, but I'm not a stone. How I could I be so close
to such a beautiful boy without being physical in some way, be-
sides, after the first, he asked for those shoulder rubs daily.
I taught him to be honest. He asked me about his friends,
(he was making more every day with his emerging self esteem) why
some of them bragged so much and told obvious lies. I told him,
If they were happy with themselves, they wouldn't need to impress
people. I also taught him that he was responsible for the words
he said to other people, and I reminded him about the hurtful
things his parents often said. We talked about things said, that
could leave scars for much longer than say, a black eye. I
taught him to say what he means, and mean what he says, to be a
man of his word.
I taught him that the greatest gift he could give himself,
was "Integrity", that is, Doing what's right despite temptation,
to follow the dictates of his conscience, what he REALLY believed
despite what others thought of him. He learned for himself that
it wasn't always easy. There was the time he became a one-time
shop lifting look-out, but despite an occasional back slide, he
was a very good boy with a keen sense of right and wrong. He
yearned for praise and wanted to be good, and that's the best
thing for any eleven year old. I was fiercly proud of him.
We talked about people with integrity who fought for what
they believed was right, people like Martin Lather King, Mahatma
Gandi, even Ryan White.
I taught him that it was all right to show his emotions to
someone he trusted. He learned he could cry on my shoulder, he
did, (five times in four years). He hugged me freely and told me
I was his best friend, and.. the best thing that ever happened to
him. I followed his honest example and told him the truth about
me, (that I was attracted to boys, and that I had special feel-
ings for him). His love and trust made it was easier to say than
I thought.
He told me he suspected, but that it didn't matter. He sug-
gested that maybe that's why I understood him so well,..because I
love boys. First I clarified his statement; I am Attracted to
boys, but only love ONE. He gave me the most loving look in
response. I told him that I believed in the way I felt and that
real honest love shouldn't be condemned. If I thought it was
wrong I would never have revealed the way I felt to him, but he
already knew that because he already knew me.
He eventually learned he could discuss sex openly with me.
He admitted to me that he had just started masturbating. He
said they talked about it in health class so he thought he'd try
it (he was 12 at the time). He made a point to tell me that he
didn't think of girls or boys, only "that tickling rush when it's
like at the best"...a description I would never forget.
Over the weeks he started asking openly pointed questions,
about how I felt and what I liked. "what do you think looks the
sexiest?, my bulge, or my butt?" I couldn't escape the humor in
his directness. I told him the truth as I always did, that I
found his eyes the most attractive and that I loved the compas-
sion he showed toward others. I told him matter of factly, that
he was indeed sexy. He took a slow breath and asked with a
slight hesitation,
"If you could do anything with me, what would ya do?"
My heart raced. I had always been straight forward with him. I
mustered the strength to finally say, "I'd like to suck your dick
to give you that 'tickling rush' you were talking about".
I saw him blush slightly as he smiled. It took him three whole
seconds before he laughed it off and mumbled, "maybe someday". I
would secretly hold that word "maybe" to my heart. He actually
said "Maybe someday!"
I taught him to pity people less fortunate than himself. We
talked about street people, retarded kids, and people with aids,
and the sadness of it all. He learned to love the truly unlov-
able and despicable-ME (that is, by society's standards, and
those of his middle school peers). Of course HE knew and loved
the real me. He knew I was incapable of molesting anyone. He
knew I had never pressed him beyond what was comfortable, in con-
versation or deed.
I taught him that school was his key to being anything he
wanted to be. I praised him to no end for his good grades. He
was six months from his thirteenth birthday when at his idea, he
arranged to spend weekends with me. I was excited at the
prospect, but made arrangements for him in the spare bedroom as
my prudence dictated. He spent the first two weekends sleeping
in the spare bedroom. The sight of him in just his underwear
walking to and from the bathroom burned in my memory those
weekends as I broke masturbation records. He was gorgeous. I
longed to kiss him full on the lips.
A million things around my apartment indicated a boy spent
the weekends with me. There was toothpaste in the sink, soap in
the tub drain, fruit-loops and Apple-Jacks in the cupboards, and
scattered comic books. I even loved doing dirty boy-laundry. He
lit up the room he was in as well as my whole weekend. I found
myself working just for the weekends when we could be together.
We worked long hours on extra credit projects for science
and social studies. They were models of Atoms, Volcanoes that
erupted, a greek building from styrofoam, and the mask of King
Tut. When we weren't working on school projects, we were making
rabbit snares and tree forts. I loved his ambition and taught
him to feel proud of his finished accomplishments.
I longed to make love to him. I put much effort into hiding
my passion not wanting to risk him being uncomfortable. Oc-
casionally he teased me with a comment, being only curious about
my reaction. "I had to pee so bad, you should have seen the boner
I woke up with" I'd smile and say something like, "Yeah, I
should have", or "You don't still have it do you?",..and we'd a
laugh it off together.
After the third weekend in the spare bedroom he asked if he
could sleep in my bed with me. He said, "Just so we can talk as
long as we want.., so I don't fall asleep in the living room
again..(he never actually did),.. so I'll get up when you get
up"..,cause your mattress is thicker". He said a million good
reasons in a row why he should, and finally ended with "Don't
worry I know you won't get touchy with me unless I ask ya"
My brain clung to the last words. Did he really say that?.
There goes my heart rate again. We prepared for bed. I wore
shorts, and he his underwear. He made a joke about me finally
getting to see him in his underwear, (I was sure he deliberately
took his time going to and from the bathroom those other
weekends). I couldn't believe that the boy I loved was half naked
and in my bed!. As we lay there we talked about the depth of our
friendship, how we were luckier than most friends, about all the
projects we did together, and finally re-telling every great joke
we could remember in the past just to laugh again.
Our laughter lulled and eventually conversation took a
serious turn and the subject changed to sex, ".. and how do you
know if you like girls, or you like boys?". I taught him what I
believed, that sex without love was shallow and cheated both
people involved. I told him that sometimes gay people made love
to the opposite sex, and that didn't mean they were straight, (I
have) and on the other hand, I told him that sometimes straight
people had homosexual experiences. I wanted him to decide for
He asked if I thought we would always be friends. I told
him nothing could ever erase the wonderful times we've spent
together, as well as all the talks we've had, and that I was sure
we'd always be friends. I told him he'd always be a part of my
life, even if I never saw him again from this moment on. Then,
as we lay side by side, I looked him in the eye and told him I
loved him. He responded with a big hug and said he loved me too
me. That first night together was the best. Despite doing noth-
ing sexual, we certainly touched each other's souls and affirmed
our love.
The next morning I woke up with him snuggled up against me.
His face was by my shoulder off the pillows, his hand was on my
chest, and his leg draped mine although his torso wasn't actually
touching my side. At the time, I wished it did, for he surely
must have had a morning erection, don't all twelve year olds?
When he finally did wake, he yawned lazily, said "Morning" and
gave me a hug before he rolled over to his side. Did I feel his
erection?, I wasn't sure.
I would never have allowed him to sleep in the same bed with
me if I wasn't sure he wanted to. I had done my best to teach
him to be assertive with me about what made him uncomfortable.
He usually held no reservations about telling me what was wrong,
yet the next night as we lay side by side, he didn't converse as
much as the night before and I sensed something was on his mind.
He loved me and he knew he could trust me, that was the main
thing. I knew whatever it was, that it was just a matter of time
before he'd share it with me. After a few token comments about
the fun of the day, between my big yawns, (he always outlasted me
at the end of the day) he said,
" Are you sure if someone does something it doesn't mean
that's what they are?"
I hoped he was trying to say what I thought he was trying to
say. I told him to forget about what people are, and are not. I
told him to just do what felt right in his heart. The subject
matter was still unspecified when he said, "I just keep thinking
what the kids at school would say if they found out"
Damn "Middle School" I thought to myself. Why did middle
school have to be such a proving ground for young boys. Despite
my love and support, Phillip still struggled in this school.
This age-group institution made boys struggle with who could beat
up who, and made kids choose between being trouble makers, or stu-
dents. It forced kids to test everything good they ever learned,
and yes, it made Phillip conform to some degree and worry about
what other kids thought of him, even for doing things he felt was
right.
But then again, no matter how much I loved him and taught
him, this "trying" of sorts was something all boys went through.
He told me he felt bad when kids at school talked about "fags",
because he thought about me, and that I didn't deserve to be
treated like that. Most of all I wanted Phillip to feel good
about himself and really be happy. All I could do was trust him
to do the right thing for himself.
I finally said, "You just have to do what feels right to
you, besides it might not be something your middle school friends
would EVER understand" and then I added, "besides, if you and I
ever did anything together, they would never need to know"
He did this nervous wiggle thing that he had done many times
before, but overall he spoke very deliberately, "Would you do
that thing you wanted to do" Of course I knew what he asked, but
I had to play it out, I had to be sure. I loved Phillip way too
much to have any doubt.
"Do what Buddy?"
"You know, give me a 'tickle-rush'", and then barely
audible, "you know, with your mouth"
I was already in that edgy state of sexual tension, but I
thought I would explode with joy hearing this sincere request
from the love of my life. I gently began caressing his entire
body. I spoke to him softly as he shuddered to my touch. I
taught him about the subtle ecstasy of foreplay with the finger-
tips, how erotic chills down his spine can feel. I told him not
to hold his breath, to breath however it felt naturally. I
suckled his little hard nipples as I traced the contours of his
warm body. His hard cock leapt up as I lightly rubbed past the
fabric of his underwear. I rubbed my palm firmly over his whole
cock and balls. He gasped with pleasure while his feet and hands
fidgeted.
He asked, "Can I touch you?"
"I would love that", I said, "But do what ever feels comfort-
able to you" I slipped off my shorts to just my underwear as he
grabbed my straining cock. He said it was really big. I coached
him through a few more minutes of foreplay until I thought the
tension was getting too teasing, (for the both of us) then I
lowered his underwear freeing his boyhood and swiped the length
of it with my tongue. He gasped again, and I told him to relax
and just let the "tickle-rush" come all by itself.
I began to pick up the pace with my mouth as his tensing and
fidgeting turned into bucking and thrusting. I was bringing him
close, but paused long enough to say, "Don't hold back buddy,
just go for it", then I sucked fast and furious. In less than a
minute he let go with a cry that could only come from a young boy
in orgasm. He grabbed the back of my head and pushed his puls-
ing cock as far as he could. His naked body spasmed with each
throb. It was over quickly, he could barely speak. He was
spent, and in a sound sleep within seven minutes. There would be
plenty of time to talk about what happened in the morning. I
placed my hand over his chest and felt his heart beat and watched
his sleeping face for half an hour.
Over the course of the remaining school year and the next
summer I taught him how to let go and surrender completely. He
learned he could thrash about and make as much noise as he
wanted. We tried all positions and variations. I taught him
where all the erogenous spots of the body were, (boy spots, I
call them). He learned there was no pressure or shame in saying
"No" if he didn't feel like it (which was rare). We learned the
intimacy of "bed talk", the meaning of a single look, the desire
of a single touch. The wonderful abandon of release.
I taught him that loving was much more important than making
love. I shared his time with his friends and gave him space.
When he needed true advice and consolation with honesty and mini-
mal risk, he returned to me. I must admit, he taught me how to
kiss. He loved the oral sensation of sucking tongues, licking
lips, and deep prolonged kissing. I taught him that that was the
quickest way to get me hard.
I taught this once shy boy to be assertive and stand up for
himself,..when he was short-changed by a clerk, when a classmate
tried to strong-arm him for his lunch money, when a teacher chal-
lenged his facts in a report. I taught him to speak up for what
he believed was right. I know the irony tugged at him, that the
one exception was me, that he could not speak up for me, that I
was indefendable to others. No matter how right it felt when we
were together, he knew all to well that I could go to prison
simply because of my age.
At the age of thirteen he had learned from me by instruction
and example to make love with precision and complete abandon. We
knew each other's physical reaction to our touch like a book.
With youth came impatience, and he couldn't endure foreplay for
long and demanded to release. His stamina and recovery time well
made up for all the quickies. Three orgasms in a row were better
than all the foreplay in the world.
I learned (after he learned) that 90% of his class had
divorced parents. We talked about this at length, including his
parents and mine, all of which were divorced. We recounted how
lucky we were to love each other so intensely holding nothing
back in conversation, and love. I observed him with his younger
brother and my nephews and nieces, showing the same patience,
love and understanding I showed him when he was younger and
needed someone so desperately. I knew this boy would grow up
with a special sense of caring and understanding. I knew already
from our relationship that he was a tender compassionate soul.
At twelve he learned the movement of my finger in his bottom
while I sucked him, could elicit an almost immediate breathless
orgasm. He thought it was the ultimate until I suggested he lay
his back on me, resting his head in my crotch with my nose be-
tween his buns. I ate his clean tight hole out as I masturbated
him vigorously. He had one of the most intense orgasms I ever
witnessed. He requested this often, and usually turned his head
to tongue my hard cock at the moment of orgasm.
When Phillip was thirteen and fourteen we made love anally.
It began when he one day blurted out, "How come we don't do it up
the butt?" I told him that I didn't want to be the one to sug-
gest it because it might hurt a little, and that there was a big
difference between the size of a finger and a dick. He insisted
we try it that night.
I taught him to relax and go at his pace, that he would push
and I wouldn't. I penetrated easier than I expected. This he
accomplished by pretending it was my tongue. (or so he said, we
also used KY). I started moving slow and was fully in him in no
time. I was careful to pump very slow for the first ten minutes,
using all the staying power I could muster not to go over the
edge.
He told me it felt pretty good and to go a little faster.
He slowly got to his knees and started masturbating a very hard
cock. Then to my surprise he began to get as impatient here as
he sometimes did with prolonged foreplay. He began to huff and
puff and between breaths came an urgent plea, "Go fast, Go
faster!" I was determined to release when he did. but I
couldn't, and came before him. Seconds later he gasped and
moaned loudly. I could tell the moment of his orgasm because his
rectum throbbed around my cock as he cried out. Two days later
(because he was a little sore), doing the same thing, he ejacu-
lated for the first time. A week later he made love to me from
behind, need I say I loved it.
He was almost fourteen when we had a serious discussion
about him becoming a man. I told him his love making was top-
notch and that I wouldn't be the only one he'd make love to in
his lifetime, so I taught him about safe sex. I taught him every-
thing they didn't teach him in middle school health class,(which
was a lot)
I taught him about two kinds of trust, the trust we had for
each other and what I called "LUST-trust", the kind of trust you
wouldn't want to stake your life on. We talked about the deadly
Aids virus and honesty in love making. We made love with condoms
to practice, although he insisted he would always love ONLY me.
I hoped that what I was teaching him would keep him safe.
From twelve to fourteen, making love to Phillip was
heavenly, but it didn't compare to his laugh, or that mischievous
twinkle in his eye just before he came out with an amazing fact.
The physical release of orgasm didn't compare to the satisfaction
of watching him do or say something that made me proud.
I taught Phillip everything I could about as much of life as
I could, but then, I don't know everything, and I certainly can't
take all the credit. Phillip was a bright fantastic boy from the
beginning, he just needed someone to make him believe it. He
needed someone to believe in HIM. So, what did Phillip teach
me?,.. He taught me to believe in myself enough to love him uncon-
ditionally. He's a strong confident fifteen year old now and,...
we're still in-love.
glas
Pat Fish1 wrote:
> This guy thinks he can piss on your foot and tell you it's raining.
For a change we agree Pat. I feel better now, don't you? : )
glas
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A good friend will help you move....
A REAL friend will help you move a body : )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stephen Hopkins
Hi, I'm back again. Sorry, my time is not unlimited.
In article <344AAF...@erols.com>,
Martha Sprowles <spro...@erols.com> wrote:
>Of course, that's entirely possible. I am certain that the (as far as I
>know) universal incest taboo must have its roots in something real. I
>do not, however, see what difference this makes to your argument in
>favor of allowing adult-child love relationships.
Well, I suppose the origin of various taboos would be a whole discussion =
in
its own right, and one could conduct enough research to cover several
voluminous hardbacks. My point was only to raise the incest topic as a
possible factor that mitigates against acceptance of non-incestuous
encounters. Could it be that a) relationships between same-age couples =
are
accepted because of the sheer impossibility of anything less than a =
sixteen
or seventeen year age gap between one generation and the next, and b)
relationships between (say) thirty-year-olds and fifty-year-olds are =
often
frowned upon for the same reason?
>I'm sorry, Stephen, but you lost my sympathy at this point. This is all
>wrong, and I'm not talking about the sexual aspect. The idea that some
>boy, somewhere, *needs* to have an adult male "mentor" so that he can
>know that he is "loved," is such perverted bullshit. I mean, really.
Hmmm... if a boy's parents (or parent--singular--in many cases) couldn't
care less about him, who else will? (Unfortunately, there ARE unloved =
kids
in both our countries.) I'm not saying that there aren't others in any =
case
(excuse the double-negative) who can give a boy (or girl) the love they
need. But some parents abdicate their responsibility... the father is =
always
drunk, or a single-mother has moved in with her new lover who doesn't =
like
kids, and the mother acquiesces. Where this happens, it sometimes falls =
to
some non-family member to fulfill that role. Some kids strike up a
friendship with a local person and get to know them. Occasionally that
person becomes a "father figure" in a way their own parents never could.
And what about gay kids? I come back to this because it is worth
reiterating. The UK daily newspaper The Guardian ran a feature in its
weekend magazine section on Saturday, September 27, 1997, about =
paedophilia.
One passage reads thus:
During my research I met Neil, a gay man now aged 40, who has =
enjoyed
having sex with adult men from the age of nine. "It seems to be
politically correct, even within the gay movement, to be
anti-paedophile. But when I ask gay male friends when they first had =
sex
they say, 'Oh, ten, eleven, twelve, with a bloke down the road who =
was
twenty-two. He was probably a paedophile!'."
There is strong anecdotal evidence that some teenagers--some gay
teenagers--seek out sexual encounters with others their own sex, be they
their age, or younger or older. Not only do they seek it out, but they
thoroughly enjoy what happens. The crucial point here is that they are
*willing participants* in what happens. Surely, as mature, responsible
adults, is is not beyond ourselves to set aside, just for a moment, our =
own
visceral negative reaction to this and ask whether, in such cases where =
the
young person is a *willing participant*, it is in that person's best
interests for the law to be enforced. If he and his partner have bonded,
then any intervention resulting in his partner ending up in legal trouble
would be very traumatic for the young person, as has been proved on a =
number
of occasions.