RICHARD ALLEN DAVIS
EVLART
the following address:
Richard Allen Davis
P.O. Box D11903-1EB100
San Quentin State Prison
San Quentin, CA., 94974
Enclose a self-addressed, stamped envelope if you want a reply. Address posted
at Davis' request.
Evlart
EGlas35107
correspond with a convict, if only to get a sense of why they do the things
they do. One in particular is Betty Broderick. If you have her address, could
you post it for me?
Thanks, Aviva
EVLART
>From: eglas...@aol.com (EGlas35107)
>Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 20:14 EST
>Message-id: <19981219201429...@ng-fv1.aol.com>
Hi Aviva,
Yes, I know him through writing and met him once. He is a nice guy on a
personal level. I do not condone or approve of what he did to that poor girl.
It was a tragedy for all concerned. I don't know Betty Broderick's address.
If I ever find it, will send it your way.
Evl
Girlielaw
personal level. I do not condone or approve of what he did to that poor girl.
It was a tragedy for all concerned
Evl,
Does he admit that he did it? If so did he tell you why? Does he have any
mental disorder that has been diagnosed? Sorry for so many questions but I am
curious.
Thanks in advance
Michelle
*******************************
The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth - Michelle
Recycle yourself - be an organ donor!!
Yesterday is history
Tomorrow's a mystery
Today is a gift;
That's why it's called "The Present"
EVLART
>Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 22:50 EST
>Message-id: <19981219225053...@ng142.aol.com>
Hi Michelle,
He's always been honest and up front with me. The guy had a horrible
childhood. His mom beat him and all the kids on a regular basis with a razor
strap, coat hangers, anything she could get her hands on. As he put it once,
"She showed love when she used her hand instead of other objects." Am not
making excuses here for him, but he had a solid pattern of being abused and
neglected from day one. His dad tried to protect the kids but was always at
work and was distant to them. He did try, in his way, to be a good dad but
the love just wasn't there. You can't love if you don't learn love from
others.
He did an excellent interview for Hard Copy (8/96) where he admits
everything, denies he ever molested her and says he doesn't know why the whole
thing happened. He was very stoned at the time. There is a history of mental
instability according the Polly Klaas book and other online documents regarding
the case.
He and I discuss other things rather than the case when we write:) He has a
great sense of humor and is one brilliant artist. It's too bad they don't let
him sell anything, so this isn't a plug. (wink) It's just sad that such a
gifted person's life could have gone so wrong.
Evl
Girlielaw
gifted person's life could have gone so wrong.
Evl,
Thanks for the info. It is sad to see people that had their childhoods been
different possibly they would have made different decisions in their adult
lives. It is a sad situation. I really feel for the Klaas family though as
they will never see their little girl reach adulthood. Who knows what she
might have been?
John R. Woodward
>>
>><He is a nice guy on a
>>personal level.
Bullshit. He is a drug abuser, a buy who schemed all his life to get by
without working, a liar and a man who commited several violent offenses
against women BEFORE taking Polly Klaas. This is his "personal level." His
soft voice, his false good manners when communicating with someone he wants
something from -- that is not the REAL Davis, who killed a 12-year-old girl
in cold blood just for fun.
I do not condone or approve of what he did to that poor
>>girl.
Could have fooled me!
>>It was a tragedy for all concerned
>>
It was a tragedy
for Polly Klaas and her friends and family. For Davis, it's a thing called
"justice."
>>Does he admit that he did it? If so did he tell you why? Does he have
any
>>mental disorder that has been diagnosed? Sorry for so many questions but I
am >>curious.
>
>Hi Michelle,
>
>He's always been honest and up front with me.
No, he hasn't. He's been POLITE to you, and no doubt has mastered the
ex-con's ability to figure out what a soft touch wan't to hear, and then
provide it. This is not HONESTY, it's a subtle and poweful trick of
distorting the truth. The proof of this? He's got you feeling sorry for him,
a grossly inappropriate response.
>The guy had a horrible
>childhood. His mom beat him and all the kids on a regular basis with a
razor
>strap, coat hangers, anything she could get her hands on. As he put it
once,
>"She showed love when she used her hand instead of other objects." Am not
>making excuses here for him, but he had a solid pattern of being abused and
>neglected from day one. His dad tried to protect the kids but was always
at
>work and was distant to them. He did try, in his way, to be a good dad
but
>the love just wasn't there. You can't love if you don't learn love from
>others.
This is no excuse. If he had killed his parents, I could accept the argument
that he was overwhelmed by anger and unable to restrain himself. He did
nothing to direct his legitimate anger against the people who inspired it,
though, and instead took it out on a defenseless girl. Millions of people
have been abused as children, many as badly as Davis, some worse. Very few
become killers. People are not robots. We DO make choices. Sometimes our
range of choices is very narrow. Perhaps Davis could not have avoided
becoming a druggie and a criminal, perhaps he could never have overcome his
anger and hatred of women -- but he didn't HAVE to become a murderer. That
was a final choice made after a string of other choices that brought him
into Polly Klaas' bedroom. Even after he had taken her, he did not have to
kill her. At every step, he did what he wanted to do, because it was easier
than doing the right thing, or because it just gave him pleasure. Did he
ever struggle with his violent urges? Did he ever make an effort to get off
drugs? Did he ever apologize and make restitution to his prior victims? Did
he ever hold a job for more than few weeks? Richard Allen Davis didn't do a
tough or difficult thing in his whole life. If he truly had a horrible
background, he never tried to overcome it. Instead, he succumbed.
>
> He did an excellent interview for Hard Copy (8/96) where he admits
>everything, denies he ever molested her and says he doesn't know why the
whole
>thing happened. He was very stoned at the time. There is a history of
mental
>instability according the Polly Klaas book and other online documents
regarding
>the case.
>
The only reason a man with a history of violence against women kidnaps a
12-year old girl out of her bedroom is to have forcible sex with her, in one
way or another. Perhaps he didn't molest her because his plan went wrong and
he had to kill her to make his getaway. In that case, TECHNICALLY he didn't
molest her, but that sure was his intent. The idea that he "doesn't know"
why he took her is laughable (or would be if the whole case were not
revolting). He knows what he is. He knows what his desires are. They are
with him when he is sober, as well as when he is stoned. No matter how
stoned he was on the night of the kidnapping, he knows now that it is in his
nature to enjoy forcible sex with very young girls, and THAT is why he took
her and killed her.
As to his denial that he molested her, he is still trying to save his life.
He hopes that the California Appellate Courts will decide that there was not
enough evidence that he sexually assaulted her, and reverse his death
sentence. (Kidnapping and murder without an aggravating offense is not a
death penalty crime in CA. His lawyers have told him that owing to the
decomposition of Polly's body there isn't enough physical evidence of sexual
assualt to give him the death penalty, though the jury and judge found
otherwise. This is the basis of his appeal.)
> He and I discuss other things rather than the case when we write:) He
has a
>great sense of humor and is one brilliant artist. It's too bad they don't
let
>him sell anything, so this isn't a plug. (wink) It's just sad that such a
>gifted person's life could have gone so wrong.
No. It sad that Polly's life was cut so short. The fact that Richard Allen
Davis got caught is not sad.
I oppose the death penalty, and I would oppose killing Richard Allen Davis.
Nonetheless, I understand why the State of California chooses to try and
kill him. Most cons learn to pass themselves off as "nice guys" and vicitms
of some sort. After all, they have plenty of time to perfect their act.
Perhaps it wouldn't be so easy to fool you if you had to seem him face to
face, and you had to look in those eyes of his. I feel sad and sorry for you
that you are vulnerable to such a man. I can't help but wonder if your
gullible streak has left you poorly-defended against abusive men in your
real life. I hope that you aren't so easily taken-in by cruel and scheming
men that you meet.
In closing, let me say to the ng that I expect of alt.t-c that it is
pro-victim and pro-law enforcement, and not a haven for prison groupies. Let
them form their own ng!
Martha Sprowles
<snip>
>
> In closing, let me say to the ng that I expect of alt.t-c that it is
> pro-victim and pro-law enforcement, and not a haven for prison groupies. Let
> them form their own ng!
Don't get your hopes up, John. I don't think anyone here "excuses" what
Richard Davis did; some of us believe that childhood abuse removes the
element of "choice" in later life, that people who have been subjected
to ongoing mistreatment during their formative years do not have the
slightest notion of how to interact with other people except as they
were--violently and without compassion. People seem to like to quote
things like "Children live what they learn" until it goes beyond the
idea of shoplifting into areas of violent crime.
Richard Davis committed a horrible, unforgivable crime, and he is too
dangerous to be allowed to rejoin the rest of society, ever. But even
someone who does the most dreadful things in the world is still a human
being, still subject to the same forces and desires that you experience.
To say that because he has done this terrible thing therefore means that
he has no "good" qualities is absurd. It's almost as if you don't want
to think that he is like you. But he is.
Martha
EVLART
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 15:30 EST
>Message-id: <367D5E...@erols.com>
Hi Martha,
All excellent points you made. Davis did NOT deny her killed Polly Klaas on
the Hard Copy Interview and he did apologize to the Klaas family on that same
show. People such as Woodward do all they can to dehumanize men and women like
Davis to justify what society legally does to prisoners in terms of societally
supported murder and abuse. Rick was carefully shaped over time into becoming
what he is, yet he still has feelings, regrets the loss of the child's life,
and has made that clear in his interview and court statement.
To J. Woodward:
I consider Rick Davis a dear personal friend and will NEVER aplogize for that.
Get it?
Evlart
EVLART
I take it you are privy to details of the case not published elsewhere?
Where's the proof of the molestation? If there was sperm on her leg or
clothes, DNA test PLEASE. I would love to see whose DNA it beonged to.
I have no illusions about Rick Davis and myself but still consider him a dear
personal friend, for which I will NEVER apologize...
Evlart
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: RICHARD
ALLEN DAVIS
>From: "John R. Woodward" <JRWoo...@nettally.com>
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 12:48 EST
>Message-id: <75jd9m$b5g$1...@server.cntfl.com>
></PRE></HTML>
YaKnow
always come across as nice in their mail, but then most people come across
as nice to people who don't really know them on an up-close basis, day in
and day out. Everyone, not just prisoners, have their "public" side. Thus,
you cannot possibly think you really know this guy just by mail and one
face-to-face meeting. Remember, when he writes to you, he has time to think
it through. It's not at all like a true real-time, in-person meeting where
he doesn't have time to polish things up and scheme and manipulate facts and
his attitude.
Anyway, it comes down to this: he KILLED a little girl whom he didn't even
know. Molestation or not, he killed her. As for remorse, we see he spends
lots of time telling you about his poor/pitiful childhood and, in your own
statement, next to none about the crime. Hey, just look at his statement at
the end of the trial claiming that Polly's father had abused her. Does that
sound like a remorseful guy? That alleged statement by Polly shows that
even Davis knows molestation was involved in his crime. Just to give Davis
an undeserved benefit of the doubt, let's say Polly did say it. Well, why
would she say it to Davis unless she knew he was getting ready to molest
her?
Do you want to see if he's truly interested in being a friend? Just don't
send him any money for a few months and you'll learn if it's money or
friendship he really wants from you. Just what crimes can you name that are
more low than that committed by Davis?
Barbrien
>>This is no excuse. If he had killed his parents, I could accept the argument
that he was overwhelmed by anger and unable to restrain himself. He did
nothing to direct his legitimate anger against the people who inspired it,
though, and instead took it out on a defenseless girl. <<
I dont think it is possible to put yourself in someone else's place to know
what they would do when overtaken with such a degree of anger. One does not
necessarily think rationally.
Many people have to learn to redirect their anger to *appropriate* targets,
hopefully in a way that does not cost lives, but it does not come naturally.
One needs help.
Most child abuse victims do *not* get any help in handling the anger and hate
which eats them up every day. Some have enough positive experiences in life to
be able to handle it. Some do not.
Without excusing anything, one can at least understand why they strike out.
>>In closing, let me say to the ng that I expect of alt.t-c that it is
pro-victim and pro-law enforcement, and not a haven for prison groupies. Let
them form their own ng!<<
I dont know why it is so hard to understand that one can have great compassion
for the victims of crimes and yet understand and have compassion for the
perpetrators of such crimes.
Compassion does not have to have limits .
I would imagine that if one of your family or friends found themselves in jail,
you might find yourself as just one more *prison groupie*.
Barbara
Fear of fairy dust leads to dourness, meanness, paranoia,
and the early onset of pomposity
EVLART
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 14:24 EST
>Message-id: <Z9cf2.232$UL4....@news.eli.net>
What crimes? Oh, the bombing of the Iraqi people a few days ago as a political
move...Abortion (except to save the life of the mom)...All legal. The
torture and abuse of children by their caretakers with minimal or no punishment
dealt out by the system....I could go on and on and on...
I would love to see a polygraph done on both people regarding the molestation
accusation as to who would pass and who would fail to put this matter to rest
in my mind.
Am not so hard up for friends that I have to pay for them. Rick writes me
because he enjoys talking to me. No other reason.
Evlart
EVLART
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 14:14 EST
>Message-id: <367e4c7e....@news.pacbell.net>
>
>On 20 Dec 1998 18:51:00 GMT, evl...@aol.com (EVLART) said :
>
>>>Subject: Re: RICHARD ALLEN DAVIS
>>>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 15:30 EST
>>>Message-id: <367D5E...@erols.com>
>>>
>>>John R. Woodward wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> pro-victim and pro-law enforcement, and not a haven for prison groupies.
>>>Let
>>>> them form their own ng!
>>>
>>>Richard Davis did; some of us believe that childhood abuse removes the
>>>element of "choice" in later life, that people who have been subjected
>>>to ongoing mistreatment during their formative years do not have the
>>>slightest notion of how to interact with other people except as they
>>>were--violently and without compassion. People seem to like to quote
>>>things like "Children live what they learn" until it goes beyond the
>>>idea of shoplifting into areas of violent crime.
>>>
>>>Richard Davis committed a horrible, unforgivable crime, and he is too
>>>dangerous to be allowed to rejoin the rest of society, ever. But even
>>>someone who does the most dreadful things in the world is still a human
>>>being, still subject to the same forces and desires that you experience.
>>>To say that because he has done this terrible thing therefore means that
>>>he has no "good" qualities is absurd. It's almost as if you don't want
>>>to think that he is like you. But he is.
>>>
>>>Martha
>>>
>>
>>
>>All excellent points you made. Davis did NOT deny her killed Polly Klaas on
>>the Hard Copy Interview and he did apologize to the Klaas family on that
>same
>>show. People such as Woodward do all they can to dehumanize men and women
>like
>>Davis to justify what society legally does to prisoners in terms of
>societally
>>supported murder and abuse. Rick was carefully shaped over time into
>becoming
>>what he is, yet he still has feelings, regrets the loss of the child's life,
>>and has made that clear in his interview and court statement.
>>
>>To J. Woodward:
>>
>>I consider Rick Davis a dear personal friend and will NEVER aplogize for
>that.
>>Get it?
>>
>>Evlart
>
>but did he happen to apologize for saying..
>that before he murdered polly..she pleaded
>with him * not to do to her like
>her daddy did*( implying that her
>father molested her)
>
>that statement made me feel sick..
>kill the mans child..and
>then say such an awful thing...
>he wasn't stoned then...
>his evil-twistedness was clear for all to see.
>
>you can know these perverts..
>they can be studied to try to find out why
>they do such awful things...
>
>but i hope they told your close and personal
>buddy..
>to shove his apologies
></PRE></HTML>
And what if he was telling the truth?
Evlart
EGlas35107
>Richard Davis did; some of us believe that childhood abuse removes the
>element of "choice" in later life, that people who have been subjected
>to ongoing mistreatment during their formative years do not have the
>slightest notion of how to interact with other people except as they
>were--violently and without compassion. People seem to like to quote
>things like "Children live what they learn" until it goes beyond the
>idea of shoplifting into areas of violent crime.
>
>Richard Davis committed a horrible, unforgivable crime, and he is too
>dangerous to be allowed to rejoin the rest of society, ever. But even
>someone who does the most dreadful things in the world is still a human
>being, still subject to the same forces and desires that you experience.
>To say that because he has done this terrible thing therefore means that
>he has no "good" qualities is absurd. It's almost as if you don't want
>to think that he is like you. But he is.
>
>Martha
Very beautifully put, Martha. I wish I had the same gift to express myself,
but I agree with you wholly.
Ev, you need not apologise for your friendship with this man. You are not
being duped, you know he committed a heinous crime, you are simply responding
to the man, not his crime. The famed FBI profiler John Douglas admits
admiration and affection for Ed Kemper, despite the gruesome crimes he
committed.
Aviva
EVLART
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 14:27 EST
>Message-id: <19981220142706...@ng-fa1.aol.com>
>
>John writes:
>>>This is no excuse. If he had killed his parents, I could accept the
>argument
>that he was overwhelmed by anger and unable to restrain himself. He did
>nothing to direct his legitimate anger against the people who inspired it,
>though, and instead took it out on a defenseless girl. <<
>************
>
>I dont think it is possible to put yourself in someone else's place to know
>what they would do when overtaken with such a degree of anger. One does not
>necessarily think rationally.
>Many people have to learn to redirect their anger to *appropriate* targets,
>hopefully in a way that does not cost lives, but it does not come naturally.
>One needs help.
>Most child abuse victims do *not* get any help in handling the anger and hate
>which eats them up every day. Some have enough positive experiences in life
>to
>be able to handle it. Some do not.
>Without excusing anything, one can at least understand why they strike out.
>
>
>
>pro-victim and pro-law enforcement, and not a haven for prison groupies. Let
>them form their own ng!<<
>
>compassion
>for the victims of crimes and yet understand and have compassion for the
>perpetrators of such crimes.
>
>Compassion does not have to have limits .
>
>I would imagine that if one of your family or friends found themselves in
>jail,
>you might find yourself as just one more *prison groupie*.
>
>Barbara
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Fear of fairy dust leads to dourness, meanness, paranoia,
>and the early onset of pomposity
Barbara,
Thanks for the professional insight:) Had Rick Davis gotten the right kind of
help early on and the abuse ceased, he might have had a happy, productive life
and Polly would be alive today. It Is possible to feel sadness over the loss
of an innocent young life yet also feel for the pain and personal chaos that
shaped the man who killed her. I wish neither had happened to either of them.
They both deserved better.
Evlart
EVLART
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: RICHARD ALLEN DAVIS
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 15:12 EST
>Message-id: <19981220151215...@ng113.aol.com>
>
>>Don't get your hopes up, John. I don't think anyone here "excuses" what
>>Richard Davis did; some of us believe that childhood abuse removes the
>>element of "choice" in later life, that people who have been subjected
>>to ongoing mistreatment during their formative years do not have the
>>slightest notion of how to interact with other people except as they
>>were--violently and without compassion. People seem to like to quote
>>things like "Children live what they learn" until it goes beyond the
>>idea of shoplifting into areas of violent crime.
>>
>>Richard Davis committed a horrible, unforgivable crime, and he is too
>>dangerous to be allowed to rejoin the rest of society, ever. But even
>>someone who does the most dreadful things in the world is still a human
>>being, still subject to the same forces and desires that you experience.
>>To say that because he has done this terrible thing therefore means that
>>he has no "good" qualities is absurd. It's almost as if you don't want
>>to think that he is like you. But he is.
>>
>>Martha
>>
>
>but I agree with you wholly.
>
>Ev, you need not apologise for your friendship with this man. You are not
>being duped, you know he committed a heinous crime, you are simply responding
>to the man, not his crime. The famed FBI profiler John Douglas admits
>admiration and affection for Ed Kemper, despite the gruesome crimes he
>committed.
>
>Aviva
Thanks, Aviva:)
I appreciate your compassionate input. It was a horrible thing, any way you
look at it and everyone's life was destroyed by it. Unlike some others, he has
never pretended to be innocent and does regret what happened but what was done
can't be undone and he's doing his best to live with the consequences of his
actions. Far from exploiting the personal abuse angle, he only mentioned it
briefly to me after I knew him for nearly a year.
Evl
YaKnow
EVLART wrote in message <19981220150356...@ng32.aol.com>...
>What crimes? Oh, the bombing of the Iraqi people a few days ago as a
political
>move...Abortion (except to save the life of the mom)...All legal. The
>torture and abuse of children by their caretakers with minimal or no
punishment
>dealt out by the system....I could go on and on and on...
Where the heck did that come from? Get back to the topic. Allen's crimes
are many and stretch through most of his life.
>I would love to see a polygraph done on both people regarding the
molestation
>accusation as to who would pass and who would fail to put this matter to
rest
>in my mind.
You missed my point. If Polly did say such a thing it would be because she
knew Allen was about to molest her. She wouldn't just pull it out of the
blue, like, say, "How about those Baltimore Orioles!" AND if he was about
to abuse her, I don't think she'd say that. I think it'd be more like
"Please don't!" The question is not whether Polly was previously abused.
It's whether Davis molested her! We sure know he killed her which is a lot
worse.
>Am not so hard up for friends that I have to pay for them. Rick writes me
>because he enjoys talking to me. No other reason.
I'm just saying that most of the prisoners have nothing to occupy their time
except write letters. And they usually are looking for money. When you
don't come thru with any, they frequently shift their attention to more
profitable friends. After all, if you write letters all day, and you have
no income, well, you gotta get someone to finance the
stamps/stationary/envelopes...
YaKnow
EGlas35107 wrote in message <19981220151215...@ng113.aol.com>...
>Ev, you need not apologise for your friendship with this man. You are not
>being duped, you know he committed a heinous crime, you are simply
responding
>to the man, not his crime. The famed FBI profiler John Douglas admits
>admiration and affection for Ed Kemper, despite the gruesome crimes he
>committed.
Here is a quote from Evlart herself:
"He did an excellent interview for Hard Copy (8/96) where he admits
everything, denies he ever molested her and says he doesn't know why the
whole
thing happened. He was very stoned at the time."
See, he still isn't owning up to the murder. He's just basically squirming
out of an admission by saying "Oh I was beaten as a kid so that's my excuse
for killing other kids. I was stoned. I don't remember. I don't know
why."
Hey, he killed a little kid. What's lower than that? Even other convicts
look upon child killers/abusers as the scum of the earth. He denies the
molestation because of the judge's sentence and his fear of other convicts
retribution.
EVLART
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: RICHARD ALLEN DAVIS
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 15:20 EST
>Message-id: <367d598b....@news.pacbell.net>
>
>On 20 Dec 1998 20:05:04 GMT, evl...@aol.com (EVLART) said :
>snip
>>>>To J. Woodward:
>>>>
>>>>I consider Rick Davis a dear personal friend and will NEVER aplogize for
>>>that.
>>>>Get it?
>>>>
>>>>Evlart
>>>
>>>i didn't see the hardcopy program..
>>>but did he happen to apologize for saying..
>>>that before he murdered polly..she pleaded
>>>with him * not to do to her like
>>>her daddy did*( implying that her
>>>father molested her)
>>>
>>>that statement made me feel sick..
>>>kill the mans child..and
>>>then say such an awful thing...
>>>he wasn't stoned then...
>>>his evil-twistedness was clear for all to see.
>>>
>>>you can know these perverts..
>>>they can be studied to try to find out why
>>>they do such awful things...
>>>
>>>but i hope they told your close and personal
>>>buddy..
>>>to shove his apologies
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Evlart
>
>to say to you...
>
>that sick fuc* put
>the knife in that family..and twisted
>it after killing mr klaas' child..
>and you think he was telling the truth..
>
>think it through..
>some poor child was being sexually
>molested by this scum..and she is going
>to say that..????? i'm sure she was pleading
>but.... it was for her life...
>
></PRE></HTML>
Try and be objective for two seconds. Why would Davis make up something like
that??? It makes no sense whatsoever. I wish a professional voice analyst
would go over that court tape and the interview after it and state his/her
opinion as to whether or not Davis was lying. Why are you trying to make it
sound like I am saying it is no big deal that the poor girl was murdered?
Please NEVER sit in on my trial as a juror, ok? I don't think it is possible
for you to look at anything objectively.
Evlart
EVLART
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 15:45 EST
>Message-id: <kldf2.242$UL4....@news.eli.net>
Maybe he denies it because it did not happen????
Please get your facts straight. Rick Davis did NOT testify on his own behalf
during the trial. He did not use the abuse excuse during the trial nor during
the interview. The interviewer drew that information out of him. What was he
supposed to do? Lie and say "oh yeah...I had a Perfect life." What for?
He did not blame anyone else or anything else for what happened. I have it on
tape (Hard Copy *8/26/96)
Evlart
Estimated playdate*
YaKnow
EVLART wrote in message <19981220155015...@ng32.aol.com>...
>Try and be objective for two seconds. Why would Davis make up something
like
>that??? It makes no sense whatsoever. I wish a professional voice analyst
He said it to inflict pain on the family!!! Now, even if Polly did say such
a silly thing, why would Davis repeat it in court? Just to stab the family
once more. He had no other intent than to inflict more pain on the family.
Such a statement by him served no other purpose in the entire world! It
certainly wasn't part of his defense, so what reason can you give?
EVLART
>Message-id: <MEdf2.244$UL4....@news.eli.net>
The only Other reason is that she really Did say it and he wanted it to be
known.
Evlart
YaKnow
EVLART wrote in message <19981220160934...@ng32.aol.com>...
>The only Other reason is that she really Did say it and he wanted it to be
>known.
You're really stretching for an excuse. He said it out of cruelity. No
other reason.
YaKnow
EVLART wrote in message <19981220160303...@ng32.aol.com>...
>Maybe he denies it because it did not happen????
>
>Please get your facts straight. Rick Davis did NOT testify on his own
behalf
>during the trial. He did not use the abuse excuse during the trial nor
during
>the interview. The interviewer drew that information out of him. What was
he
>supposed to do? Lie and say "oh yeah...I had a Perfect life." What for?
>
>He did not blame anyone else or anything else for what happened. I have it
on
>tape (Hard Copy *8/26/96)
Think about things and quit trying to make Davis into something more than he
is.
I did NOT say he testified at his trial. He chose to blurt something out in
open court in order to hurt the family. He wanted to get a jab in without
having to be subjected to cross-examination. Surely you remember how
offended everyone was that OJ Simpson tried to make a big statement in court
without having to be cross-examined. Heck, at least he didn't use the
moment to slander anyone.
I did not say he was using the abuse excuse with anyone but some naive
penpals. The man is an admitted child killer. Realize that a child killer
is certainly not going to be above lieing.
Yes, he is trying to blame others, thus his comment in court about the
molestation by Mr. Klass.
glas
Nicki said:
|>i don't even know what
|>to say to you...
|>
|>that sick fuc* put
|>the knife in that family..and twisted
|>it after killing mr klaas' child..
|>and you think he was telling the truth..
|>
|>think it through..
|>some poor child was being sexually
|>molested by this scum..and she is going
|>to say that..????? i'm sure she was pleading
|>but.... it was for her life...
|>
|></PRE></HTML>
|
|
|
|Try and be objective for two seconds. Why would Davis make up something
like
|that??? It makes no sense whatsoever. I wish a professional voice analyst
|would go over that court tape and the interview after it and state his/her
|opinion as to whether or not Davis was lying. Why are you trying to make
it
|sound like I am saying it is no big deal that the poor girl was murdered?
|
|Please NEVER sit in on my trial as a juror, ok? I don't think it is
possible
|for you to look at anything objectively.
You are even more disturbed that I originally imagined.
Why would he make that up? For the same damn reason he went into a young
girl's home in the night and snatched her right out from under her mother's
nose to molest and murder. Because he's a sick fuck. He made it up because
he is evil and foul to the very depths of his soul. He wanted to get back
at Mark Klass for being proactive in the fight to punish the monster
responsible for killing that beautiful, innocent, child. How dare Mark
Klass have the balls to focus his anger and pain at the monster for his
deed?
That's exactly why Richard Allen "Scumbag" Davis said that in court. As far
as I'm concerned, the bastard is lucky that he wasn't taken out and lynched
because that is still better than what he deserved.
Everyone makes choices in life. There may be mitigating factors that
determine how we feel about things and make us inclined to walk one path
instead of the other. Those mitigating factors however, are not responsible
for the choices we make, merely excuses.
glas
Joe1orbit
>>>>This is no excuse. If he had killed his parents, I could accept the
>>argument
>>that he was overwhelmed by anger and unable to restrain himself. He did
>>nothing to direct his legitimate anger against the people who inspired it,
>>though, and instead took it out on a defenseless girl.
barb...@aol.com (Barbrien) Wrote:
>>************
>>
>>I dont think it is possible to put yourself in someone else's place to know
>>what they would do when overtaken with such a degree of anger. One does
>not
>>necessarily think rationally.
>>Many people have to learn to redirect their anger to *appropriate* targets,
>>hopefully in a way that does not cost lives, but it does not come naturally.
>>One needs help.
>>Most child abuse victims do *not* get any help in handling the anger and
>hate
>>which eats them up every day. Some have enough positive experiences in life
>>to
>>be able to handle it. Some do not.
>>Without excusing anything, one can at least understand why they strike out.
>>I dont know why it is so hard to understand that one can have great
>>compassion
>>for the victims of crimes and yet understand and have compassion for the
>>perpetrators of such crimes.
>>
>>Compassion does not have to have limits .
>>
>>I would imagine that if one of your family or friends found themselves in
>>jail,
>>you might find yourself as just one more *prison groupie*.
>>
>>Barbara
>>Fear of fairy dust leads to dourness, meanness, paranoia,
>>and the early onset of pomposity
evl...@aol.com (EVLART) Wrote:
>Barbara,
>
>Thanks for the professional insight:) Had Rick Davis gotten the right kind
>of
>help early on and the abuse ceased, he might have had a happy, productive
>life
>and Polly would be alive today. It Is possible to feel sadness over the loss
>of an innocent young life yet also feel for the pain and personal chaos that
>shaped the man who killed her. I wish neither had happened to either of
>them.
>They both deserved better.
>
>Evlart
Hello Evl,
I just want to say, after reading the 25 or so posts to this thread, how very
PROUD I am of you, your courage, your insight, and your passionate defense of
Truth. Richard is very lucky to have a friend like you. I think you should
print out every post in this thread, from ALL the posters, and then send all
the pages to Richard. Tell him that this is an international computer message
board forum, and that thousands of people read each message.
I think that Richard's heart will SWELL with pride, pleasure, and gratitude,
towards you. And he will truly feel personally honored by your defense of him
and the Truth, just as I feel. I think it might genuinely lift his spirits, on
a TRue Reality level, to know that you not only express your true feelings
towards him in private e-mail, but possess the courage and conviction to
publically share your superior insight and attitude with thousands of fellow
humans, most of whom are bigoted, irrational, narrowminded, hypocrites.
That's all I wanted to say, how PROUD of you I felt and feel, as I read
through the 25 posts just now.
Take care, JOE
></PRE></HTML>
Chester
I'm just as amazed at the illogic of the love-the-criminal crowd.
How do you KNOW Davis did what he did because of his alleged childhood
experiences? I'm not passing any particular judgement on Davis because I
don't know anything about him, but the generic sob stories you people apply
to these cases are ridiculous.
Just because a criminal describes childhood abuse doesn't mean it actually
happened.
It doesn't mean it happened the way the criminal says it did. The criminal
may have been doing bad things their entire life, starting when they were
kids. The abuse they describe was actually *discipline,* and it may be
*exagerrated.* You seldom hear from these people the bad things they did
when they were children. You will only hear the punishment or retaliation
they received afterward, as if it came out of the blue.
Just because a criminal received abuse doesn't mean that is the only factor
in their crimes. They could be a sociopath by nature and the abuse merely
an additional inspiring factor. Many people do develop into sociopaths on
their own without a lot of neglect or abuse. This is, after all, what the
people who subscribe to Davis' accusation about Mark Klaas are saying, isn't
it? That Mark Klass could have abused his own child and he therefore was a
bad person. Why aren't you folks immediately making up childhood sob
stories for Mark Klass, if you believe the accusation?
Girlielaw wrote in message <19981220122053...@ng39.aol.com>...
><It's just sad that such a
>gifted person's life could have gone so wrong.
>
glas
|
|>
|>You are even more disturbed that I originally imagined.
|>
|>Why would he make that up? For the same damn reason he went into a young
|>girl's home in the night and snatched her right out from under her
mother's
|>nose to molest and murder. Because he's a sick fuck. He made it up
because
|>he is evil and foul to the very depths of his soul. He wanted to get back
|>at Mark Klass for being proactive in the fight to punish the monster
|>responsible for killing that beautiful, innocent, child. How dare Mark
|>Klass have the balls to focus his anger and pain at the monster for his
|>deed?
|>
|>That's exactly why Richard Allen "Scumbag" Davis said that in court. As
far
|>as I'm concerned, the bastard is lucky that he wasn't taken out and
lynched
|>because that is still better than what he deserved.
|>
|>Everyone makes choices in life. There may be mitigating factors that
|>determine how we feel about things and make us inclined to walk one path
|>instead of the other. Those mitigating factors however, are not
responsible
|>for the choices we make, merely excuses.
|>
|>glas
|>
|>
|
|
|
|Well at least I managed to bring you and Nicki together:) I feel all warm
and
|fuzzy inside.
|
|Ah...xmas! Anything is possible!
|
|Evl
Hate to burst your little bubble, but Nicki and I have our disagreements and
we also have our understandings, none of which you know anything about. So
take a nice cold shower and go back to checking what you flush.
glas <- no tolerance for child-snatching, molesting, murderers
Chester
>I am not passing judgement on anyone, simply considering the possibility
that
>Rick Davis was telling the truth in court.
If so, then the instant sob-story generator should have already spit out a
Mark-Klaas must-have-been-abused-as-a-child story.
> If it was true, then this is an
>even greater tragedy than it already is.
If it was true, Polly Klaas had already suffered worse abuse than Richard
Allen Davis when he killed her. Mark Klaas should himself be getting
sympathy since, according to this logic, he must be a victim of childhood
abuse, too.
>Do only the "good" guys deserve love
>and what exactly is good?
The reason most men get love in this world has nothing to do with whether
they deserve it. It has to do with whether they attract attention. That
murder succeeds in such a respect is proof.
--Chester
EVLART
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: RICHARD ALLEN DAVIS
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 17:04 EST
>Message-id: <6tef2.9907$kW3....@newsfeed.slurp.net>
>
>EVLART graced us with this gem in a.t-c ...
>
>Nicki said:
>|>i don't even know what
>|>to say to you...
>|>
>|>that sick fuc* put
>|>the knife in that family..and twisted
>|>it after killing mr klaas' child..
>|>and you think he was telling the truth..
>|>
>|>think it through..
>|>some poor child was being sexually
>|>molested by this scum..and she is going
>|>to say that..????? i'm sure she was pleading
>|>but.... it was for her life...
>|>
>|>
>|
>|
>|
>like
>|that??? It makes no sense whatsoever. I wish a professional voice analyst
>|would go over that court tape and the interview after it and state his/her
>|opinion as to whether or not Davis was lying. Why are you trying to make
>it
>|sound like I am saying it is no big deal that the poor girl was murdered?
>|
>|Please NEVER sit in on my trial as a juror, ok? I don't think it is
>possible
>|for you to look at anything objectively.
>
>
>
EVLART
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 17:31 EST
>Message-id: <19981220173103...@ng40.aol.com>
Hi Joe,
Thank you very much for your statement above:) I stand behind everything I've
said here about Rick Davis and I am PROUD to be his friend as I am Proud to
know you. You both have a unique courage and brilliance that most can only
dream of. It's an honor to have both of you in my life.
Take care,
Evl:)
EVLART
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 18:18 EST
>Message-id: <6295-367...@newsd-224.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>I am in the PRISONS at LEAST weekly - AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE
>TALKING ABOUT !!!
>Stop thinking you can learn ANYTHING about prisons, by other than GOING
>INSIDE THEM - AND IF YOU ARE NOT A PRISONER - YOU LEARN ABOUT 50% !!
>
>Thank you for your time and consideration:
>With GODS' LOVE Capt JOHN "V"
>
></PRE></HTML>
Hi Captain,
Thanks for your input:) It's good to see a friendly face here and hear the
voice of reason. Most Never want to see prisoners as anything other than
"animals" as this justifies any and all abuse directed their way. It's the
same de-humanization process that serial killers are accused of doing, but far
less easier to take when the ones doing it claim the moral upper hand.
Take care,
Evl:)
EVLART
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 19:08 EST
>Message-id: <75k3u0$ljb$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Hello Chester,
I am not passing judgement on anyone, simply considering the possibility that
Rick Davis was telling the truth in court. If it was true, then this is an
even greater tragedy than it already is. Do only the "good" guys deserve love
and what exactly is good?
Evlart
Soiam411
>
>Thank you very much for your statement above:) I stand behind everything
>I've
>said here about Rick Davis and I am PROUD to be his friend as I am Proud to
>know you. You both have a unique courage and brilliance that most can only
>dream of. It's an honor to have both of you in my life.
>
>Take care,
>Evl:)
>
>
Hark, hark, the dogs do bark. Anybody hear
a loud sucking sound?
Joe1orbit
Joe1...@aol.com Wrote:
>> Hello Evl,
>>
>> I just want to say, after reading the 25 or so posts to this thread, how
>>very
>>PROUD I am of you, your courage, your insight, and your passionate defense
>of
>>Truth. Richard is very lucky to have a friend like you. I think you should
>>print out every post in this thread, from ALL the posters, and then send all
>>the pages to Richard. Tell him that this is an international computer
>message
>>board forum, and that thousands of people read each message.
>> I think that Richard's heart will SWELL with pride, pleasure, and
>>gratitude,
>>towards you. And he will truly feel personally honored by your defense of
>him
>>and the Truth, just as I feel. I think it might genuinely lift his spirits,
>>on
>>a TRue Reality level, to know that you not only express your true feelings
>>towards him in private e-mail, but possess the courage and conviction to
>>publically share your superior insight and attitude with thousands of fellow
>>humans, most of whom are bigoted, irrational, narrowminded, hypocrites.
>>
>> That's all I wanted to say, how PROUD of you I felt and feel, as I read
>>through the 25 posts just now.
>>
>> Take care, JOE
>Hi Joe,
>
>Thank you very much for your statement above:)
Hello Evl,
You're welcome. I am always happy to be honest and declare Truths.
> I stand behind everything
>I've
>said here about Rick Davis and I am PROUD to be his friend as I am Proud to
>know you.
Thanks.
> You both have a unique courage and brilliance that most can only
>dream of.
I agree, in all my immodest glory. :)
> It's an honor to have both of you in my life.
It feels nice to me, to have attracted a few Superior humans, like yourself,
to my posts, insights, and life philosophies. Thank you for being Superior
enough to recognize my brilliance, courage, and yes, superiority. :)
Take care, JOE
>Take care,
>Evl:)
></PRE></HTML>
John R. Woodward
>>the knife in that family..and twisted
>>it after killing mr klaas' child..
>>and you think he was telling the truth..
>>
>>think it through..
>>some poor child was being sexually
>>molested by this scum..and she is going
>>to say that..????? i'm sure she was pleading
>>but.... it was for her life...
>>
>
>
>
>Try and be objective for two seconds. Why would Davis make up something
like
>that??? It makes no sense whatsoever. I wish a professional voice analyst
>would go over that court tape and the interview after it and state his/her
>opinion as to whether or not Davis was lying. Why are you trying to make
it
>sound like I am saying it is no big deal that the poor girl was murdered?
>
>Please NEVER sit in on my trial as a juror, ok? I don't think it is
possible
>for you to look at anything objectively.
>
Someone -- I lost track of who -- sarcastically remarked that I must have
had acess to previously-hidden evidence if I have reason to be certain that
Davis molested Polly Klaas. I don't have any such evidence, and never
claimed to. I have review my post. Here's what I said:
>The only reason a man with a history of violence against women kidnaps a
>12-year old girl out of her bedroom is to have forcible sex with her, in
one
>way or another. Perhaps he didn't molest her because his plan went wrong
and
>he had to kill her to make his getaway. In that case, TECHNICALLY he didn't
>molest her, but that sure was his intent. The idea that he "doesn't know"
>why he took her is laughable (or would be if the whole case were not
>revolting). He knows what he is. He knows what his desires are. They are
>with him when he is sober, as well as when he is stoned.
I have no idea whether or not Davis molested Polly. Her body was too
decomposed to determine that. The jury in the case was invited to reach that
conclusion -- which they did -- on the basis of circumstantial evidence.
What I meant -- and I stand by this -- is that Davis kidnapped Polly to
sexually assault her. That's the only reason a man with his record of
violence against women would abduct a young girl.
His crack in court was typical con behavior. Cons believe that deep down
inside we're all just like them. They really believe that everybody's a
sociopath, just like them. So he figured if he accused Mr. Klaas of
molesting Polly, he'd lend credibility to his claim that he didn't molest
her. Well, it didn't make any difference. The jury made up their minds on
the basis of the evidence, and the law took its bloodthirsty, misguided
course. Yes, Ma'am, from Davis' point of view the false allegation made
perfect sense. Why not try, after all? At that stage, what did he have to
lose?
I do wish a voice stress test could be conducted on his statement in court,
but unfortunately it was not enough of a sample for a reliable reading. It
would be nice to strip away his last lie, though.
My great regret is that he has been sentenced to death, which brings
disgrace on us all. The State has no more right to take Mr. Davis' life than
he did to take Polly's. If a thing is wrong, it's wrong, and you can't
change that fact by voting on it.
There are millions of people who need and deserve compassion more than
Davis. They haven't killed anybody, and never will.
I didn't "demonize" Richard Allen Davis. He made himself into a killer,
which I could never do. I only see him for what he is. If that means that I
have to see something ugly, then so be it.
And in response to the person who accused me of stripping Mr. Davis of his
humanity so that I wouldn't have to acknowledge that he and I are of the
same specis: I've never killed anyone -- and never will -- and though I know
am of the same specis as Mr. Allen, there is a vast, unbridgeable gulf
between us that he crossed and we haven't.
DedNdogYrs
justifies any and all abuse directed their way. It's the same de-humanization
process that serial killers are accused of doing, but far less easier to take
when the ones doing it claim the moral upper hand.>>
To talk to Blondie, the subject of my series "Diary of an Inmate", you would
never know he was a drug abuser or had been in jail (more than once). I have
discovered knowing him that there are some very nice and ordinary people in
jail. Prison is something I know less about. My cousin who posts here has a
relative unrelated to me who was in prison for a drunk driving accident back
when they didn't put them away for half their lives and he was an ordinary
middle class person too, and for this kind of person in trouble, prison is a
nightmare. I am probably going to be out of town for the holidays but it is my
intention when I come back to post an article that I came across which tells
what happens to middle class people with no criminal record who suddenly go
nuts and shoot several people and end up sharing quarters with violent career
criminals, gang members, and serial killers on death row.
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
jail, you might find yourself as just one more *prison groupie*.>>
I know what this is like from personal experience and I can tell you that there
is only one thing worse than being in jail or prison and that is being there
with no money and no friends. People speak of cable TV in jail and prison but
try watching it over 100 heads and not being able to choose what you want to
watch and having nothing else to do.
Dogs & children first.
EVLART
>and
>|fuzzy inside.
>|
>|Ah...xmas! Anything is possible!
>|
>|Evl
>
>
>we also have our understandings, none of which you know anything about. So
>take a nice cold shower and go back to checking what you flush.
>
>glas <- no tolerance for child-snatching, molesting, murderers
>
>
Hello St. Glas,
And when did god die and put you in charge? You're really soft on abortion as
I recall. The murder of the MOST innocent and helpless.
Ave Satanas
Evl
EVLART
>Message-id: <75kggt$t8j$1...@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
>
>EVLART wrote in message <19981220202401.04532.00002481@ng->
>that
>>Rick Davis was telling the truth in court.
>
>Mark-Klaas must-have-been-abused-as-a-child story.
>
>>even greater tragedy than it already is.
>
>Allen Davis when he killed her. Mark Klaas should himself be getting
>sympathy since, according to this logic, he must be a victim of childhood
>abuse, too.
>
>>and what exactly is good?
>
>
>they deserve it. It has to do with whether they attract attention. That
>murder succeeds in such a respect is proof.
>
>--Chester
>
>
>
The issue here was that I felt had Rick Davis had a normal, sane, loving home
environment he might have turned out to be a very different person. As it is,
he still has feelings, still has a strong sense of right and wrong and has
never once whined to the media about his abusive past. What as told to me was
said in a brief private conversation not intended for public consumption but I
am sick of people treating him like some kind of animal. He regrets what
happened but what is done can never be undone. As for the other one, if the
story is true then he has some intense issues of his own and probably also was
victimized/molested in the past. The whole story is a monumental tragedy for
all concerned.
Evlart
EVLART
>Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 03:58 EST
>Message-id: <19981221035810...@ng124.aol.com>
All very true. All it takes is one serious mess-up and there you are behind
bars with everyone else. The scary thing is people are SO closed-minded that
the possibility of a fair trial is virtually nil. Jurors are swayed by the
personal appearance of the accused, etc. Some are bored and just want to get
out quickly. There are innocent men and women on Death Row at this moment who
will die at the hands of the state and polls taken indicate that the majority
don't care. They feel capital punishment is a good idea anyway. Good luck to
your friend. He's going to need it.
Evl
glas
I would suggest you re-check your recollection. I have never said how I feel
about abortion in this newsgroup.
But then again, what would I expect from someone who is delusional.
glas
EVLART
>Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 03:38 EST
>Message-id: <75l1e9$g7c$1...@server.cntfl.com>
>
>>>that sick fuc* put
>>>the knife in that family..and twisted
>>>it after killing mr klaas' child..
>>>and you think he was telling the truth..
>>>
>>>think it through..
>>>some poor child was being sexually
>>>molested by this scum..and she is going
>>>to say that..????? i'm sure she was pleading
>>>but.... it was for her life...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
Well, if your theory is right then why was he quoted as saying by one of the
little girls, "There was supposed to be no one here?" Robbery rather than
molestation appears to be the motive. As to why he took her, only he knows the
real reason and we don't discuss that but logically he might of considered
kidnapping for money then changed his mind, realizing full well that once she
identified him he would get a one-way ticket to Pelican Bay and most likely he
preferred certain Death. Says a lot about your system that a man would choose
certain death rather than life in prison under such cirmcumstances, if that
were the case. This is ALL conjecture on my part and reflects nothing told to
me by him at any time.
Evlart
WWWoLadyA
>Well, if your theory is right then why was he quoted as saying by one of the
>little girls, "There was supposed to be no one here?" Robbery rather than
>molestation appears to be the motive.
Just to remind you of some things.....
Mr. Davis already had a history of assaulting females before he kidnapped
Polly.
I'm not sure if you get a chance to read all of the threads, but in another
recently the anti-social personality was being defined.
One noteworthy characteristic of this disorder is the impaired ability to
engage in interpersonal relationships , but an impressively shrewd ability at
the pretense if there is a self-serving motive. They are masterful liars.
A little unsolicited advice...... strain everything he says through a
cheesecloth........ including those distasteful comments about the father of
his victim.
And guard your heart.
It sounds like you have a very soft one, which could potentially make you
another kind of victim.
Lady A
Barbrien
Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 5:06 AM
Message-id: <19981221040609...@ng124.aol.com>
Dogs & children first.
*********
Some might say you were lucky to have it at all:)
Love your sig line:)
Barbara
Chester
>The issue here was that I felt had Rick Davis had a normal, sane, loving
home
>environment he might have turned out to be a very different person. As it
is,
>he still has feelings, still has a strong sense of right and wrong and has
>never once whined to the media about his abusive past. What as told to me
was
>said in a brief private conversation not intended for public consumption
but I
>am sick of people treating him like some kind of animal. He regrets what
>happened but what is done can never be undone. As for the other one, if
the
>story is true then he has some intense issues of his own and probably also
was
>victimized/molested in the past. The whole story is a monumental tragedy
for
>all concerned.
Your description of Richard Allen Davis may be accurate. I can't say one
way or the other, since I am no authority on his life. But the root of evil
is not always a childhood sob story, and some people need to face that
reality. An "evil" act is the result of an equation in the mind of the
"evildoer," in which childhood abuse may be only one factor, and not
necessarily the most significant factor.
Kurt Sims
What if he was telling the truth?? How can you say that?
Richard Davis is a twisted piece of garbage that can not suck cyanide soon
enough for me. The young girls family life has never come into question.
If you have any evidence to the contrary please present it.
There has never, as far as I know, been an incident requiring police or
family services presence at her house before Davis came over to butcher
her.
Kurt
In article <19981220150504...@ng32.aol.com>, evl...@aol.com
(EVLART) wrote:
Someone replied to Evlart
>>>Evlart
>>
>>i didn't see the hardcopy program..
>>but did he happen to apologize for saying..
>>that before he murdered polly..she pleaded
>>with him * not to do to her like
>>her daddy did*( implying that her
>>father molested her)
>
>
>And what if he was telling the truth?
>
>Evlart
--
To reply by email, please remove the two spams from my address.
topt...@my-dejanews.com
>
> The issue here was that I felt had Rick Davis had a normal, sane, loving home
> environment he might have turned out to be a very different person. As it is,
> he still has feelings, still has a strong sense of right and wrong and has
> never once whined to the media about his abusive past. What as told to me was
> said in a brief private conversation not intended for public consumption but I
> am sick of people treating him like some kind of animal. He regrets what
> happened but what is done can never be undone. As for the other one, if the
> story is true then he has some intense issues of his own and probably also was
> victimized/molested in the past. The whole story is a monumental tragedy for
> all concerned.
>
> Evlart
>
Hi
De-lurking here....
Uh, why do you choose to believe a convicted murderer over someone you DONT
know?
A child murderer is NOT a normal person. R. Davis is sick, mentally and
emotionally. He may be a nice guy to you, even charming. Most sociopaths are.
So he had a bad childhood? So what? That doesn't mean I have sympathy for this
sick fuck because he killed a child.
And even if he had a normal childhood he may have turned out the same way, we
can never know.
Just as we can never know what kind of woman Polly Klass would have been.
I do not understand this hero worship of a murderer.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
EVLART
>From: wwwo...@aol.com (WWWoLadyA)
>Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 09:56 EST
>Message-id: <19981221095624...@ng-cf1.aol.com>
Hi Lady A,
I agree that he does have a history of doing that in his younger years. I
copied the online rap sheet. There were several incidents within a fairly
narrow time frame after he escaped from the forensic mental hospital when he
was much younger. He doesn't pretend to be something he isn't , but he is very
definite on his feelings about everyone, himself included, having to pay their
dues when they do wrong. He's rock hard on that issue. This is no
Doreen/Richard Ramirez thing:) No where near it!!!! We like each other and
that's all.
Evlart
John R. Woodward
>Well, if your theory is right then why was he quoted as saying by one of
the
>little girls, "There was supposed to be no one here?" Robbery rather than
the
>real reason and we don't discuss that but logically he might of considered
>kidnapping for money then changed his mind, realizing full well that once
she
>identified him he would get a one-way ticket to Pelican Bay and most likely
he
>preferred certain Death. Says a lot about your system that a man would
choose
>certain death rather than life in prison under such cirmcumstances, if that
>were the case. This is ALL conjecture on my part and reflects nothing told
to
>me by him at any time.
>
>Evlart
I don't know why Davis invaded Polly's home that night. He did rob it. Maybe
that was his sole motive for going in. But then he took Polly. He had served
prison time for abducting 3 women and beating and/or torturing them, in
seperate incidents. That gives us a poweful insight into what Davis is.
Perhaps he meant to rob the home, and only took a young girl out of it
because the opportunity arose. That does not make him any less of a killer.
The desires to hurt women for his own pleasure were there. Wether he went
into the house to gratify them, or decided to gratify them when he found the
opportunity, makes no difference.
If we knew that Davis killed Polly because he'd rather go to Death Row than
Pelican Bay, does that make him any less monstrous? Fortunately, we have his
prior criminal record to show us what he is.
He knows why he took Polly. He's a sexual sadist. He had gratified those
dark desires before. He doesn't want to admit to those desires, not to you
and perhaps not to himself. Anybody willing to see him as he is can tell you
about Davis, though. All you have to know about him is the record of his
crimes.
Ask yourself, what need of yours is served by making excuses for this man?
How does this make your life whole? Why would you rather believe that Marc
Klaas molested his daughter, then believe that Davis is a liar? These
things, I can't figure out. Davis, I feel I understand. You, I shake my head
over.
Shelli Johnson
I agree with you. I think the blame game gets to out of hand. I know plenty of
people abused severly in different ways, that turned out to be very successful
people. They don't sit there and do nothing or commit a crime and blame it on a
bad childhood.
If that was my child that had been murdered..I couldn't imagine feeling sad or
sorry for the person that took my young childs life??
Shelli Johnson
Richard Allen Davis had a choice to be a good or bad person, and he made his choice.
What ever happened to people taking responsibility for thier actions?
Polly never had a choice to be alive or dead....
glas
|
|I dont recall reading any post by Evlart which *excused* Davis's behavior.
An
|attempt to understand and explain someone's actions does not in any way
|necessarily condone it.
Perhaps you go by a different dictionary than most people then. She
repeatedly claims that he behaved the way he did because of his own rotten
childhood. She also claims that he said that awful thing about Polly's
father because it is true.
These are excuses.
glas <- always glad to help out in a pinch
|
|For some reason explanations are too often seen as *excuses* and it just
avoids
|dealing with the issues that are raised, one of which might be to try to
find
|ways to head off the kind of behavior exhibited by Davis early in life.
Shelli Johnson
> Subject: Re: RICHARD ALLEN DAVIS
> From: Shelli Johnson <jp...@hdc.net>
> Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 10:47 PM
> Message-id: <367F085C...@hdc.net>
> ********
>
> Non two people react to any of life's situations in the same way. Some people
> have more positive experiences in their lives to draw on to help deal with the
> negative ones than others.
> I makes no sense to expect everyone to act the way you *think* they should.
> It's not that simple.
>
> Barbara
>
> Fear of fairy dust leads to dourness, meanness, paranoia,
> and the early onset of pomposity
No Barbara, i think people should act like human beings..Just because you seem to
like to justify hate and justify murder? I was beat as a child, and i don't blame
my abuser for hate and trying to justify a murder.
Would you be trying to justify a murderer that murdered your kids??
Get real...
Harvey Nehgila
>He's on Death Row and will be executed in the gas chamber at
>San Quentin one day for what he did. He understands that and
>accepts it. I wonder how many posting here could do the same
>if they were in that position?
I'd take a shot at misunderstanding and rejecting it, but I'm pretty
sure they'd do me anyway, doncha think?
Chester
>Non two people react to any of life's situations in the same way. Some
people
>have more positive experiences in their lives to draw on to help deal with
the
>negative ones than others.
>I makes no sense to expect everyone to act the way you *think* they should.
>It's not that simple.
It is more complex than you make it. The notion that all abuse-inflicted
stems from abuse-received is pop-psychology bullshit. The picture you draw
of these abusers' childhoods shows only the abuse they allegedly received.
Yet, if you were to actually catalog all significant incidents in their
childhoods objectively, you would have a very different picture in many
cases. The picture would reveal a child who inflicted severe abuse on
other children, even on adults, even on their own parents, who lied,
manipulated, violently abused, and, yes, sometimes got punished. You would
have a picture of a child who would do anything to get whatever he wanted,
with no conscience. That child would evolve into a teenager who "got into
trouble with the law" for crimes against other people, who was often in
conflict with their families, their parents, their schoolmates or the
authorities -- for obvious reasons. This teenager would be depressed and
upset about the trouble this caused for himself -- hence, the terrible
suffering. The teenager would blame everyone else and would characterize
their own punishment or even the occasional injustice in a grandiose way.
This person would be destined to be in conflict with their society due to
their own sociopathy and not necessarily to society's corruptness. They
would get depressed because they could not fit into society, and as a result
they might get into drugs or alcohol. Eventually, they might kill a few
people or do something to get attention. Then they would have people coming
out of the woodwork and obsessing on the few abuses they received and not
the comparatively massive abuse they inflicted on everyone else their whole
lives.
This is one picture. It isn't all of them. There are people who start out
good and are severely victimized over the course of their lives. Those
people have their "choices" limited -- eventually they must retaliate
against people and society. In my mind, these people are still good
people, though it's hard to differentiate them from all the true sociopaths,
who are very good at lying. Again, this is NOT a comment on Richard Allen
Davis, whose life I know nothing about.
EVLART
>From: sspa...@uspamcalgary.ca (Kurt Sims)
>Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 14:58 EST
>Message-id: <75mclc$c...@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>
>
>
>What if he was telling the truth?? How can you say that?
>
>Richard Davis is a twisted piece of garbage that can not suck cyanide soon
>enough for me. The young girls family life has never come into question.
>If you have any evidence to the contrary please present it.
>
>There has never, as far as I know, been an incident requiring police or
>family services presence at her house before Davis came over to butcher
>her.
>
>Kurt
>
>
>In article <19981220150504...@ng32.aol.com>, evl...@aol.com
>(EVLART) wrote:
>
>Someone replied to Evlart
>
>>>>Evlart
I never said that there was any hard evidence of the accusation, only that his
statement made no sense at all as a fabrication, since it would enrage the
judge and the family. She might of said it to try and make him go away. Only
she knows what really happened and she's no longer alive to tell us.
Evlart
Barbrien
Chester wrote:
Non two people react to any of life's situations in the same way. Some people
have more positive experiences in their lives to draw on to help deal with the
negative ones than others.
I makes no sense to expect everyone to act the way you *think* they should.
It's not that simple.
Barbara
Barbrien
>Well, if your theory is right then why was he quoted as saying by one of
the
>little girls, "There was supposed to be no one here?" Robbery rather than
>molestation appears to be the motive. As to why he took her, only he knows
the
>real reason and we don't discuss that but logically he might of considered
>kidnapping for money then changed his mind, realizing full well that once
she
>identified him he would get a one-way ticket to Pelican Bay and most likely
he
>preferred certain Death. Says a lot about your system that a man would
choose
>certain death rather than life in prison under such cirmcumstances, if that
>were the case. This is ALL conjecture on my part and reflects nothing told
to
>me by him at any time.
>
johnwoodward replied:
I don't know why Davis invaded Polly's home that night. He did rob it. Maybe
that was his sole motive for going in. But then he took Polly. He had served
prison time for abducting 3 women and beating and/or torturing them, in
seperate incidents. That gives us a poweful insight into what Davis is.
Perhaps he meant to rob the home, and only took a young girl out of it
because the opportunity arose. That does not make him any less of a killer.
The desires to hurt women for his own pleasure were there. Wether he went
into the house to gratify them, or decided to gratify them when he found the
opportunity, makes no difference.
If we knew that Davis killed Polly because he'd rather go to Death Row than
Pelican Bay, does that make him any less monstrous? Fortunately, we have his
prior criminal record to show us what he is.
He knows why he took Polly. He's a sexual sadist. He had gratified those
dark desires before. He doesn't want to admit to those desires, not to you
and perhaps not to himself. Anybody willing to see him as he is can tell you
about Davis, though. All you have to know about him is the record of his
crimes.
Ask yourself, what need of yours is served by making excuses for this man?
How does this make your life whole? Why would you rather believe that Marc
Klaas molested his daughter, then believe that Davis is a liar? These
things, I can't figure out. Davis, I feel I understand. You, I shake my head
over.
****
I dont recall reading any post by Evlart which *excused* Davis's behavior. An
attempt to understand and explain someone's actions does not in any way
necessarily condone it.
For some reason explanations are too often seen as *excuses* and it just avoids
dealing with the issues that are raised, one of which might be to try to find
ways to head off the kind of behavior exhibited by Davis early in life.
Barbara
EVLART
>From: "glas" <gl...@donet.com>
>Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 22:30 EST
>Message-id: <ctEf2.78$PA4...@newsfeed.slurp.net>
>
>Barbrien posted in a.t-c ...
>|
>An
>|attempt to understand and explain someone's actions does not in any way
>|necessarily condone it.
>
>
>repeatedly claims that he behaved the way he did because of his own rotten
>childhood. She also claims that he said that awful thing about Polly's
>father because it is true.
>
>These are excuses.
>
>glas <- always glad to help out in a pinch
>
>|
>avoids
>|dealing with the issues that are raised, one of which might be to try to
>find
>|ways to head off the kind of behavior exhibited by Davis early in life.
>|
>|Barbara
>|
>|
>|
>|
>|
>|
>|
>|Fear of fairy dust leads to dourness, meanness, paranoia
Nice to see you are on a mission again, Glas. Is it possible for you to tell
the truth and avoid slandering people to suit your agenda? I considered the
possibility that the child may have told Rick Davis that, for whatever reason
and he decided to share this information at the end of the trial. He had
nothing whatever to gain and everything to lose by saying what he did. What
could possess him to make it up when such an action would only serve to make
his life even more miserable? I have made no excuses in this thread to justify
what was done. That is obvious to anyone without an axe to grind who reads my
posts.
Evlart
Barbrien
Barbrien posted in a.t-c ...
|
|I dont recall reading any post by Evlart which *excused* Davis's behavior.
An
|attempt to understand and explain someone's actions does not in any way
|necessarily condone it.
glas offers:
Perhaps you go by a different dictionary than most people then. She
repeatedly claims that he behaved the way he did because of his own rotten
childhood. She also claims that he said that awful thing about Polly's
father because it is true.
These are excuses.
glas <- always glad to help out in a pinch
*********
Damm glas, I knew I should have asked for the OED instead of the toaster oven
but my lowly Random House will have to do:
explain: to make plain or clear, to make known in detail, to assign meaning to
, to interpret.
excuse: to regard or judge with indulgence, pardon or forgive, overlook ( a
fault, error etc), to offer an apology for, seek to remove the blame.
Perhaps you are thinking of "explain away" which is close to "excuse"but not
"explain".
Explaining why someone might have done something is certainly not
*necesssarily* condoning it.
Do I have to make you read the whole childless men thread >G<
I'm speaking mainly of the explnation of the *possiblity *of being abused as a
child leading to one becoming an abuser as an adult.
I have absolutely no opinion about the molestation charge. I think Mark looked
rightfully outraged by the suggestion and I was shocked when it happened. I
have not read any of the posts in the past made by Evlart but in this thread ,
I have not seen her say that it was true that Mark abused Polly.
Barbara
|
|For some reason explanations are too often seen as *excuses* and it just
avoids
|dealing with the issues that are raised, one of which might be to try to
find
|ways to head off the kind of behavior exhibited by Davis early in life.
|
|Barbara
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EVLART
>I dont recall reading any post by Evlart
which *excused* Davis's behavior. An
>attempt to understand and explain someone's actions does not in any way
>necessarily condone it.
>
>For some reason explanations are too often seen as *excuses* and it just
>avoids
>dealing with the issues that are raised, one of which might be to try to
>find
>ways to head off the kind of behavior exhibited by Davis early in life.
>
>Barbara
>
>>Thank you very much for that post, Barbara. I think that people are so
revved up on this issue that they have no intention of trying to look at the
whole thing objectively. It is too easy to demonize someone like Rick Davis
rather than try to understand how he came to be that way. He's on Death Row
and will be executed in the gas chamber at San Quentin one day for what he did.
He understands that and accepts it. I wonder how many posting here could do
the same if they were in that position?
Evl
>
>
>
>Fear of fairy dust leads to dourness, meanness, paranoia,
>and the early onset of pomposity
></PRE></HTML>
Barbrien
>
> Chester wrote:
>
> > I used to be amazed by the illogic of the punish-the-criminal crowd. Now
> > I'm just as amazed at the illogic of the love-the-criminal crowd.
> >
> > How do you KNOW Davis did what he did because of his alleged childhood
> > experiences? I'm not passing any particular judgement on Davis because I
> > don't know anything about him, but the generic sob stories you people apply
> > to these cases are ridiculous.
> >
> > Just because a criminal describes childhood abuse doesn't mean it actually
> > happened.
> >
> > It doesn't mean it happened the way the criminal says it did. The criminal
> > may have been doing bad things their entire life, starting when they were
> > kids. The abuse they describe was actually *discipline,* and it may be
> > *exagerrated.* You seldom hear from these people the bad things they did
> > when they were children. You will only hear the punishment or retaliation
> > they received afterward, as if it came out of the blue.
> >
> > Just because a criminal received abuse doesn't mean that is the only factor
> > in their crimes. They could be a sociopath by nature and the abuse merely
> > an additional inspiring factor. Many people do develop into sociopaths on
> > their own without a lot of neglect or abuse. This is, after all, what the
> > people who subscribe to Davis' accusation about Mark Klaas are saying,
isn't
> > it? That Mark Klass could have abused his own child and he therefore was a
> > bad person. Why aren't you folks immediately making up childhood sob
> > stories for Mark Klass, if you believe the accusation?
> >
> > >
> > >Evl,
> > >Thanks for the info. It is sad to see people that had their childhoods
> > been
> > >different possibly they would have made different decisions in their adult
> > >lives. It is a sad situation. I really feel for the Klaas family though
> > as
> > >they will never see their little girl reach adulthood. Who knows what she
> > >might have been?
> > >*******************************
> > >The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth - Michelle
>
> I agree with you. I think the blame game gets to out of hand. I know plenty
of
> people abused severly in different ways, that turned out to be very
successful
> people. They don't sit there and do nothing or commit a crime and blame it on
a
> bad childhood.
> If that was my child that had been murdered..I couldn't imagine feeling sad
or
> sorry for the person that took my young childs life??
> ********
>Barbara:
> No two people react to any of life's situations in the same way. Some people
> have more positive experiences in their lives to draw on to help deal with
the
> negative ones than others.
> I makes no sense to expect everyone to act the way you *think* they should.
> It's not that simple.
>
jpsg replies:
No Barbara, i think people should act like human beings..Just because you seem
to
like to justify hate and justify murder? I was beat as a child, and i don't
blame
my abuser for hate and trying to justify a murder.
Would you be trying to justify a murderer that murdered your kids??
Get real...
********
Barbara:
I think that you are mischaracterizing what I have said. Perhaps I have not
been clear. I have *never* tried to justify hate, nor have I tried to justify
murder.
Please show me in my posts where I have said anything like that?
If you do not blame your abuser, then you are a perfect exam;ple of what I am
talking about. Some of us blame our abusers and some of us dont. Everyone
reacts in their own individual way. and to differing degrees and we all act
those feelings out in completely individual ways.
Barbara
Barbrien
Date: Tue, Dec 22, 1998 12:14 AM
Message-id: <19981221231400...@ng148.aol.com>
Barbara wrote:
Evl
*****
I think it is very hard to look at certain crimes objectively. Many of us
have a visceral reaction to crimes against children in particular.
It is easy and I think perfectly natural to objectify and villify a
perpetrator for such crimes.
It's more difficult to try to make the neccessary adjustments in our
priorities so that we might be able to prevent more of the same.
Shelli Johnson
> Barbara
>
> Fear of fairy dust leads to dourness, meanness, paranoia,
> and the early onset of pomposity
Correct we act out feelings in different ways..What is it with your astericks? You
have them by the word, *thinks* that people don't act the way i think they
should..How about reading and listening to what you have wrote. I wrote what i
think, and you are trying to tell me, how i "think" people should react? I have a
opinion, and i "think" i have the right to voice my opinion, just as you do. I
never assumed that all people should act and "think" like me. It would be a dull
world than, wouldn't it?
Barbrien
Date: Tue, Dec 22, 1998 2:21 AM
Message-id: <367F3A59...@hdc.net>
Barbrien wrote:
********
I use asterisks for emphasis as I cannot change the format of my font in this
medium, as I would in email, use italics.
It seemed to me that you were saying that you didnt react violently and
therefore on one should.
I was trying to point out that we are all different and react differently,
that's all. If I was wrong I apologize.
However, I am still waiting for you to show me posts of mine in which you
accused me of *justifying* hate and murder .
Shelli Johnson
I apoligize too... to assume you can somehow justify murder. It just enrages me,
when a child is murderd. Childern need grownups and parents to protect them and
shelter them from monsters that take thier lives or abuse them in anyway.
I can't imagine, how it feels to lose a child to murder. I lost two young nephews
to a drowning..i know the pain of losing a child. To lose a child to murder is a
worse persons nightmare.
To many childern are being murdered everyday..and by the news reports it is getting
worse. I put my son in Pollys place..and cringe at thought of my son having to go
through what polly did, or any other child.
We as adults need to say, "No more"..No more children are going to suffer at the
hands of a sick deranged person.
Barbrien
Message-id: <367F49C7...@hdc.net>
Barbrien wrote:
*********
I agree, absolutely and that is why I am suggesting how important it is to
offer treatment to kids who have been abused, so that the chances are less
that they will grow up to possibly take out their outrage on others or
conversly, on themselves.
Barbrien
people
>have more positive experiences in their lives to draw on to help deal with
the
>negative ones than others.
>I makes no sense to expect everyone to act the way you *think* they should.
>It's not that simple.
Chester writes:
>>It is more complex than you make it. The notion that all abuse-inflicted
stems from abuse-received is pop-psychology bullshit. <<
Barbara:
Where did I say that *all* abuse inflicted stems from abuse received?
Chester:
> The picture you draw
of these abusers' childhoods shows only the abuse they allegedly received.<
Barbara: I beg your pardon, where have I drawn a picture of abuser's childhoods
other than making some general statements that abused kids do not all react the
same?
Chester:
Barbara: Right, I did not *ever* say that all children who grow up to be
murders were all abused any more than I said that all children who are abused
grow up to be murders.
I make the same distinction that you do here. There are many events which shape
us all.
I cant bring myself to deal in *good* and *bad* though. I dont think anyone is
either born *bad* or turns *bad* out of the clear blue sky. There are always
many contributing factors.
The first picture that you paint misses one thing. What was it that made the
child begin to act out in the way that you describe?
Demona888
what he had been accused of doing and that made my skin crawl. What I cannot
explain is why I got this same feeling when I saw Mark Klaas. This is not to
make ANY suggestion that he had anything to do with his daughter's death, nor
do I believe he ever molested her. However, it was odd to get the creeps upon
seeing him.
Hester
EVLART
>From: "Harvey Nehgila" <ha...@nospam.org>
>Date: Tue, Dec 22, 1998 00:28 EST
>Message-id: <75nalp$b...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
>>San Quentin one day for what he did. He understands that and
>>accepts it. I wonder how many posting here could do the same
>>if they were in that position?
>
>sure they'd do me anyway, doncha think?
>
>
>
>
Well, I don't know about you, but if I ever got in that position, I'm sure
they'd be fighting to see who got the chance to pull the switch;) For my part,
I'd give them a REAL piece of mind mind before I exited this Earth. They just
love executions.
Evl
EVLART
>Date: Tue, Dec 22, 1998 00:06 EST
>Message-id: <11058-36...@newsd-223.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>I really do not think EVL said anything about "love the criminal" - I
>BELIEVE she said treat ALL with DIGNITY !!!
>
>I think it was GOD who said LOVE the criminal (since HE is the world's
>most famous)!
>
>But, that is OK, if it makes you "feel" good and safe - hate them!!!
>
>Thank you for your time and consideration:
>With GODS' LOVE Capt JOHN "V"
>
></PRE></HTML>
Hi Captain,
It often amazes me how in an officially xian society, how un-Christlike many
are:) I agree that all people should be treated with dignity and fairness.
If we do wrong, then we have to pay the price, but society cannot continue to
ignore the factors that shape people, neutral innocent babies into becoming
killers. I think "love your enemy...Visit the imprisoned" were some of the
things Christ advised. They didn't like him either. He had a bad attitude, in
Their opinion. So they trumped up some charges and arranged to have him
officially murdered by their society. Nothing changes over time and anyone who
dares to challenge social injustice is bound to go the same way, but it's a
worthy death, if and when it happens.
Take care,
Evl:)
EVLART
>Date: Tue, Dec 22, 1998 06:49 EST
>Message-id: <19981222064947...@ng96.aol.com>
I know what you mean. It was a very unsettling feeling. The family has been
through enough hell, so I don't want to add to it. I guess the eye movement,
speech and general body language following the court outburst vs. the calm,
direct presentation by the other one made me wonder if possibly Davis was
telling the truth. I prefer to think that Polly may have said that to avoid
being hurt by him. Regretably, we will never know the full truth of the whole
situation since the only person who can set things straight is dead.
Evlart
sweet...@earthlink.net
says...
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: RICHARD ALLEN DAVIS
Christ was the same man who said, "Whoever should offend one of these
little ones it is better to have a millstone tied around his neck and be
drowned"
Which makes me wonder what HE would have done with Davis.
And where HE would have found a millstone in this day and age.
Martha Sprowles
>
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: RICHARD ALLEN DAVIS
> >Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 14:58 EST
> >Message-id: <75mclc$c...@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>
> >
> >
> >What if he was telling the truth?? How can you say that?
> >
> >Richard Davis is a twisted piece of garbage that can not suck cyanide soon
> >enough for me. The young girls family life has never come into question.
> >If you have any evidence to the contrary please present it.
> >
> >There has never, as far as I know, been an incident requiring police or
> >family services presence at her house before Davis came over to butcher
> >her.
> >
> >Kurt
> >
> >
> >In article <19981220150504...@ng32.aol.com>, evl...@aol.com
> >(EVLART) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>>Evlart
>
> statement made no sense at all as a fabrication, since it would enrage the
> judge and the family. She might of said it to try and make him go away. Only
> she knows what really happened and she's no longer alive to tell us.
>
> Evlart
When I saw the tape of Richard Davis saying that as he was taken from
court, all I could think of was a child who had been caught and was on
his way to be punished for something he'd done, who with a last
desperate act of defiance shouts "I hate you" at his accusers. Why is
it necessary for this man who--for the zillionth time--committed a
horrible crime and who is receiving society's punishment for it, why, on
top of his imprisonment and possible future execution, must he also be
polite to the court that convicted him? Why is it so wrong for him,
after all this, to show his hatred? Must he now *love* the people who
hate him so? Is it not human to try to hit back, and what else does
this man have to hit back with?
Martha
cli...@worldnet.att.net
><<I would imagine that if one of your family or friends found themselves in
>jail, you might find yourself as just one more *prison groupie*.>>
> * * *
>I know what this is like from personal experience and I can tell you that there
>is only one thing worse than being in jail or prison and that is being there
>with no money and no friends. People speak of cable TV in jail and prison but
>try watching it over 100 heads and not being able to choose what you want to
>watch and having nothing else to do.
>
>
>Dogs & children first.
Why, that's...that's criminal. That's what that is.
As far as "having nothing else to do", there is a new thing out now
called BOOKS.
Take hair, Clinkin
cli...@worldnet.att.net
>Try and be objective for two seconds.
Damn, I was just going to tell you the same thing.
> Why would Davis make up something like
>that??? It makes no sense whatsoever. I wish a professional voice analyst
>would go over that court tape and the interview after it and state his/her
>opinion as to whether or not Davis was lying. Why are you trying to make it
>sound like I am saying it is no big deal that the poor girl was murdered?
Maybe because that's the way you're coming across.
>
>Please NEVER sit in on my trial as a juror, ok? I don't think it is possible
>for you to look at anything objectively.
Again, you have read my mind concerning my statement to you.
>
>Evlart
Take hair, Clinkin (aka #6)
chest...@my-dejanews.com
barb...@aol.com (Barbrien) wrote:
> Barbrien wrote in message <19981221221452...@ng02.aol.com>...
> >Non two people react to any of life's situations in the same way. Some
> people
> >have more positive experiences in their lives to draw on to help deal with
> the
> >negative ones than others.
> >I makes no sense to expect everyone to act the way you *think* they should.
> >It's not that simple.
> ******************
> Chester writes:
> >>It is more complex than you make it. The notion that all abuse-inflicted
> stems from abuse-received is pop-psychology bullshit. <<
>
> Barbara:
> Where did I say that *all* abuse inflicted stems from abuse received?
It is implied blatantly by the tendency of some people to insist that
criminals they don't know "acted out" because of abuse or trauma. There is
this implied assumption that the abuser must have been abused.
> Chester:
> > The picture you draw
> of these abusers' childhoods shows only the abuse they allegedly received.<
>
> Barbara: I beg your pardon, where have I drawn a picture of abuser's childhoods
> other than making some general statements that abused kids do not all react the
> same?
The reaction some people have implies this generic assumption. No matter
what the abuser does, they pay attention to the abuser. They talk about the
abuser's sob stories, seldom about the victim's suffering, and never do they
talk about the abuser's crimes.
This is shown in their illogical interpretations of criminals' acts. Let us
say an abuser commits long-term outrageous abuse against another person. The
sob sisters will say he was adopted or didn't like his father. Others will
point out similar situations do not lead to crime in most cases, even in the
same families. The sob sisters will say everyone reacts differently. So
then others will ask why did the criminal "react differently" (Note that
already the euphemisms are at work.) The sob sisters will say he was more
desperate. But this is simply unfounded. C'mon, now, there is *another*
explanation as to why the criminal "reacted differently."
Must there be a precipitating experience of abuse or trauma? This is the
false assumption I spoke about. In some cases, the bad behavior is more due
to a lifetime of selfish thinking, egotism, and getting away with abuses.
These personality defects is not helped by the tendency of some people to
endlessly feel sorry for the abuser and make up excuses for them.
> Barbara
>
> Fear of fairy dust leads to dourness, meanness, paranoia,
> and the early onset of pomposity
-- Chester
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Martha Sprowles
>
> >Don't get your hopes up, John. I don't think anyone here "excuses" what
> >Richard Davis did; some of us believe that childhood abuse removes the
> >element of "choice" in later life, that people who have been subjected
> >to ongoing mistreatment during their formative years do not have the
> >slightest notion of how to interact with other people except as they
> >were--violently and without compassion. People seem to like to quote
> >things like "Children live what they learn" until it goes beyond the
> >idea of shoplifting into areas of violent crime.
> >
> >Richard Davis committed a horrible, unforgivable crime, and he is too
> >dangerous to be allowed to rejoin the rest of society, ever. But even
> >someone who does the most dreadful things in the world is still a human
> >being, still subject to the same forces and desires that you experience.
> >To say that because he has done this terrible thing therefore means that
> >he has no "good" qualities is absurd. It's almost as if you don't want
> >to think that he is like you. But he is.
> >
> >Martha
> ></PRE></HTML>
>
> Very beautifully put, Martha. I wish I had the same gift to express myself,
> but I agree with you wholly.
>
> Ev, you need not apologise for your friendship with this man. You are not
> being duped, you know he committed a heinous crime, you are simply responding
> to the man, not his crime. The famed FBI profiler John Douglas admits
> admiration and affection for Ed Kemper, despite the gruesome crimes he
> committed.
>
> Aviva
I am totally in awe of people like Evlart who are able to see beyond the
crime and offer friendship to men (and women) in prison for dreadful
deeds. I think that they, and religious people who minister in prisons,
must be the biggest-hearted people on the planet.
Martha
Martha Sprowles
>
> EVLART wrote in message <19981220155015...@ng32.aol.com>...
> >Try and be objective for two seconds. Why would Davis make up something
> like
> >that??? It makes no sense whatsoever. I wish a professional voice analyst
>
> a silly thing, why would Davis repeat it in court? Just to stab the family
> once more. He had no other intent than to inflict more pain on the family.
> Such a statement by him served no other purpose in the entire world! It
> certainly wasn't part of his defense, so what reason can you give?
Do you not imagine that at that moment Richard Davis felt cornered,
trapped, the most despised human in the vicinity? What was he supposed
to do? Smile and walk out of the courtroom? Start crying? What, in
your informed opinion, would be appropriate behavior for a man who has
just been convicted of a heinous murder? Why should he not express his
rage?
Martha
Martha Sprowles
>
> >|Well at least I managed to bring you and Nicki together:) I feel all warm
> >and
> >|fuzzy inside.
> >|
> >|Ah...xmas! Anything is possible!
> >|
> >|Evl
> >
> >
> >Hate to burst your little bubble, but Nicki and I have our disagreements and
> >we also have our understandings, none of which you know anything about. So
> >take a nice cold shower and go back to checking what you flush.
> >
> >glas <- no tolerance for child-snatching, molesting, murderers
> >
> >
> ></PRE></HTML>
>
> Hello St. Glas,
>
> And when did god die and put you in charge? You're really soft on abortion as
> I recall. The murder of the MOST innocent and helpless.
>
> Ave Satanas
> Evl
Glas is not wishy-washy. She says what she thinks, and she doesn't try
to sugar-coat it, either. I don't think it's fair to start in on her
for something else entirely--and you know I disagree with her on this
one. Glas and I disagree, but she is a Noble Soul.
Martha
Martha Sprowles
<snip>
>
> And in response to the person who accused me of stripping Mr. Davis of his
> humanity so that I wouldn't have to acknowledge that he and I are of the
> same specis: I've never killed anyone -- and never will -- and though I know
> am of the same specis as Mr. Allen, there is a vast, unbridgeable gulf
> between us that he crossed and we haven't.
And why do you think that is? Do you acknowledge that every one of us
is, at some level, capable of doing things we'd never dream we could do?
Martha
Martha Sprowles
>
> Barbrien posted in a.t-c ...
> |
> An
> |attempt to understand and explain someone's actions does not in any way
> |necessarily condone it.
>
> repeatedly claims that he behaved the way he did because of his own rotten
> childhood. She also claims that he said that awful thing about Polly's
> father because it is true.
>
> These are excuses.
>
> glas <- always glad to help out in a pinch
Nope. Explanations do not always equal excuses.
Martha
Martha Sprowles
>
> The first time I saw Davis I got the major willies. Maybe it was because I knew
> what he had been accused of doing and that made my skin crawl. What I cannot
> explain is why I got this same feeling when I saw Mark Klaas. This is not to
> make ANY suggestion that he had anything to do with his daughter's death, nor
> do I believe he ever molested her. However, it was odd to get the creeps upon
> seeing him.
>
> Hester
I find him creepy, too, and I have no reason at all to believe he
mistreated her in any way.
Martha
tyz...@my-dejanews.com
Martha:
I just wanted to throw my .02 in and say how much I appreciate the last few
posts from you regarding this man - I don't want to go and post this after
each of your last posts - besides being really annoying (having "Great Post -
I agree" show up 2 billion times), I have to leave in 20 minutes. (G) BUT -
I wanted to say how much I appreciate what you've posted - and the way you
put it. I wish I had that gift.
Just wanted to say "thanks"...
Happy Holidays,
Tyzano
CAP...@webtv.net
JBrown6000
<<When I saw the tape of Richard Davis saying that as he was taken from
court, all I could think of was a child who had been caught and was on
his way to be punished for something he'd done, who with a last
desperate act of defiance shouts "I hate you" at his accusers. Why is
it necessary for this man who--for the zillionth time--committed a
horrible crime and who is receiving society's punishment for it, why, on
top of his imprisonment and possible future execution, must he also be
polite to the court that convicted him? Why is it so wrong for him,
after all this, to show his hatred? Must he now *love* the people who
hate him so? Is it not human to try to hit back, and what else does
this man have to hit back with?
**He wasn't speaking to the court, was he?
He was speaking to the man whose daughter he had brutalized. Not much human
about that.
jb
Martha Sprowles
Oh, come on, JB. Do you think his statement, hateful as it was, would
have had one zillionth of the impact it had if it had been spoken
privately to Mark Klass? That was for show--bravado.
I was rereading The Autobiography of Malcolm X over the weekend, and I
was struck again by Malcolm's insight. The white people he offended
were as offended by him calling them "white devils" as by anything else.
Malcolm raised the question: Do we have to take your abuse, and find
you lovable, too? Is there any doubt that Richard Davis was full of
anger and despair at that moment? Did he have to pretend to love his
persecutors as well? Was anyone about to show *him* a little respect?
I feel ridiculous having to explain this again: I hate the crime he
committed. Polly Klass was martyred to whatever drove Richard Davis to
do what he did. Her family and friends--everyone who knows about this
murder--will never be the same. Richard Davis didn't steal just a
child; he stole from all of us, and that's a lot to forgive. He has
been tried, found guilty, and he may even die for his crime.
No one defends his actions as being *right* except in the sense that he
had no choice in performing them, that whatever personal demons drove
him that night to do what he did forced the inevitable to occur. What
he did was horrible. But he is a person all the same, born with the
same emotional equipment the rest of us have. Something happened; we
know he was abused (the fact that we have only his word for it is
meaningless: he believes himself to have been abused, and that is what
he reacts to. Whether you or I would call it abuse is irrelevant), and
we know he was habitually "stoned." I think both of these things count
toward understanding, *not* excusing, what he did.
I wish people could move on away from tsk-tsking over the crime: no one
has any problem saying that what happened to Polly Klass shouldn't have
happened to anyone, or that her family and the rest of us were hurt by
this man's actions. There really isn't anything to discuss re: that
part of the crime. His trial is over: he did it.
Richard Davis is probably the most-hated man in the US--well, after Bill
Clinton. There isn't any need for us here at our little computers to
heap scorn upon him, unless we do it to make ourselves feel superior. I
don't think a person who truly is superior takes the easy way out,
though, and condemning a man who has been found guilty of a terrible
crime seems to me to be the easiest way out imaginable.
Stretching one's imagination to think about what could go on inside a
person's heart and head and soul to allow or compel him to do these
things is, to me, much more interesting and productive. But that
discussion, as usual, gets stomped out before it can even get started by
the righteous among us who have to make sure everyone hears their voices
condemning the condemned.
Martha
JBrown6000
<<Non two people react to any of life's situations in the same way. Some people
have more positive experiences in their lives to draw on to help deal with the
negative ones than others.
I makes no sense to expect everyone to act the way you *think* they should.
It's not that simple.
**That's just plain stupid, Barbara. It is that simple. You do not get a pass
to torture and kill because you were abused as a child.
Martha Sprowles
>
> Martha, comparing Malcolm X and R. Davis:
>
> <<I was rereading The Autobiography of Malcolm X over the weekend, and I
> was struck again by Malcolm's insight. The white people he offended
> were as offended by him calling them "white devils" as by anything else.
> Malcolm raised the question: Do we have to take your abuse, and find
> you lovable, too? Is there any doubt that Richard Davis was full of
> anger and despair at that moment? Did he have to pretend to love his
> persecutors as well? Was anyone about to show *him* a little respect?
>
> Malcolm X as an example of the "rightness" of Davis's response is really over
> the edge.
>
> jb
>
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I was not comparing anyone to
anyone. The two situations struck me as similar, that a person who is
despised (i.e., Black Muslims and/or a child-murderer) is expected to
behave in a respectful way toward the people who have power over his
destiny. It seems to me that to expect someone who would murder a child
to "behave" in a courtroom is pretty foolish, anyway.
Martha
CAP...@webtv.net
glas
|
|Oh, come on, JB. Do you think his statement, hateful as it was, would
|have had one zillionth of the impact it had if it had been spoken
|privately to Mark Klass? That was for show--bravado.
And so that makes it more acceptable?
|
|I was rereading The Autobiography of Malcolm X over the weekend, and I
|was struck again by Malcolm's insight. The white people he offended
|were as offended by him calling them "white devils" as by anything else.
|Malcolm raised the question: Do we have to take your abuse, and find
|you lovable, too? Is there any doubt that Richard Davis was full of
|anger and despair at that moment? Did he have to pretend to love his
|persecutors as well? Was anyone about to show *him* a little respect?
No, noone expected him to pretend to LOVE anyone.
As for the respect, I think he was shown plenty of respect by the mere fact
that he was allowed to have his day in court, a lawyer to represent him, and
permitted to speak on his own behalf. The fact that he wasn't taken out and
lynched is a pretty big show of respect.
|
|I feel ridiculous having to explain this again: I hate the crime he
|committed. Polly Klass was martyred to whatever drove Richard Davis to
|do what he did. Her family and friends--everyone who knows about this
|murder--will never be the same. Richard Davis didn't steal just a
|child; he stole from all of us, and that's a lot to forgive. He has
|been tried, found guilty, and he may even die for his crime.
|
|No one defends his actions as being *right* except in the sense that he
|had no choice in performing them, that whatever personal demons drove
|him that night to do what he did forced the inevitable to occur. What
|he did was horrible. But he is a person all the same, born with the
|same emotional equipment the rest of us have. Something happened; we
|know he was abused (the fact that we have only his word for it is
|meaningless: he believes himself to have been abused, and that is what
|he reacts to. Whether you or I would call it abuse is irrelevant), and
|we know he was habitually "stoned." I think both of these things count
|toward understanding, *not* excusing, what he did.
No choice? I disagree. Plenty of people are abused. I was abused during my
childhood and as an adult. Have I gone out and murdered anyone? No. Have
I gone on to abuse my children? No. Those were choices I made and Richard
had the same choices. He choose to be a murderer. He gave up the
opportunity for help, respect, and essentially life. The important thing is
that the choice was his to make and he knew he was making bad choices having
been previously incarcerated. No doubt he was made aware that there were
options for him and that he could get help. Christ, you can see billboards
with ads about getting counseling all over the country!
|
|I wish people could move on away from tsk-tsking over the crime: no one
|has any problem saying that what happened to Polly Klass shouldn't have
|happened to anyone, or that her family and the rest of us were hurt by
|this man's actions. There really isn't anything to discuss re: that
|part of the crime. His trial is over: he did it.
|
|Richard Davis is probably the most-hated man in the US--well, after Bill
|Clinton. There isn't any need for us here at our little computers to
|heap scorn upon him, unless we do it to make ourselves feel superior. I
|don't think a person who truly is superior takes the easy way out,
|though, and condemning a man who has been found guilty of a terrible
|crime seems to me to be the easiest way out imaginable.
I beg to differ with you here, Martha. I do think a superior person can
condemn someone for making bad choices. Having been given the same life
options and making decidedly superior choices allows me to condemn. I knew
better and so did he.
|
|Stretching one's imagination to think about what could go on inside a
|person's heart and head and soul to allow or compel him to do these
|things is, to me, much more interesting and productive. But that
|discussion, as usual, gets stomped out before it can even get started by
|the righteous among us who have to make sure everyone hears their voices
|condemning the condemned.
Perhaps this would not occur if it weren't for the "compasionate" ones
mouthing so many hurtful and victim bashing words that sound more excuses
and mollycoddling than understanding.
glas
|
|Martha
glas
snip....
|
| The living conditions for lifers in California may well have been the
final
|determining factor. It may have been what drove him to choose certain
Death
|over life without parole. Perhaps he felt he had no other way out and
could
|not afford to let her live and be a possible witness. That is something to
|truly ponder. If that is the case, then life sentences in the absence of a
|death penalty won't work as a deterrent...The killers will make sure they
die
|being captured rather than go through that.
Prison is not supposed to be pleasant, it is punishment. If they don't want
to be there then they shouldn't be out murdering, raping, robbing, etc....
Everyone knows the consequences of these actions, particularly someone that
has already been there once.
glas
Martha Sprowles
>
> > **Ummm. ARe you thinking someone SHOULD have shown him some respect? To use
> > Malcolm X as an example of the "rightness" of Davis's response is really over
> > the edge.
> >
> > jb
> >
>
>
> Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I was not comparing anyone to
> anyone. The two situations struck me as similar, that a person who is
> despised (i.e., Black Muslims and/or a child-murderer) is expected to
> behave in a respectful way toward the people who have power over his
> destiny. It seems to me that to expect someone who would murder a child
> to "behave" in a courtroom is pretty foolish, anyway.
>
> hell are you talking about?
>
> jb
Never mind.
Martha Sprowles
>
> Subject: Re: RICHARD ALLEN DAVIS
> Date: Tue, Dec 22, 1998 5:25 PM
> Message-id: <36800E...@erols.com>
>
> EGlas35107 wrote:
> >
> > >Don't get your hopes up, John. I don't think anyone here "excuses" what
> > >Richard Davis did; some of us believe that childhood abuse removes the
> > >element of "choice" in later life, that people who have been subjected
> > >to ongoing mistreatment during their formative years do not have the
> > >slightest notion of how to interact with other people except as they
> > >were--violently and without compassion. People seem to like to quote
> > >things like "Children live what they learn" until it goes beyond the
> > >idea of shoplifting into areas of violent crime.
> > >
> > >Richard Davis committed a horrible, unforgivable crime, and he is too
> > >dangerous to be allowed to rejoin the rest of society, ever. But even
> > >someone who does the most dreadful things in the world is still a human
> > >being, still subject to the same forces and desires that you experience.
> > >To say that because he has done this terrible thing therefore means that
> > >he has no "good" qualities is absurd. It's almost as if you don't want
> > >to think that he is like you. But he is.
> > >
> > >Martha
> > >
> >
> > but I agree with you wholly.
> >
> > Ev, you need not apologise for your friendship with this man. You are not
> > being duped, you know he committed a heinous crime, you are simply responding
> > to the man, not his crime. The famed FBI profiler John Douglas admits
> > admiration and affection for Ed Kemper, despite the gruesome crimes he
> > committed.
> >
> > Aviva
>
> I am totally in awe of people like Evlart who are able to see beyond the
> crime and offer friendship to men (and women) in prison for dreadful
> deeds. I think that they, and religious people who minister in prisons,
> must be the biggest-hearted people on the planet.
>
> Martha
>
> to love the *bad* ones.
>
And does anybody think that the *good* people need love more than the
*bad* people?
Martha
Harvey Nehgila
>Well, I don't know about you, but if I ever got
>in that position, I'm sure they'd be fighting to see
>who got the chance to pull the switch;)
Point is, when the outcome is beyond our control, how we react is
pretty much a matter of style points -- the real measure of a human
being is in the choices we make. Rick had more choices in his life
than men who had backgrounds as bad (or worse) who didn't ever
commit any crimes. (Rick got housing assistance, jobs, etc through
being in the system - law abiding guys got nothing). Why did he
choose to hurt people while others so much like him did not?
I agree with you that demonizing him is an easy knee-jerk reaction, but
so is stroking his hand saying "poor baby" for the next ten years while
his appeals go through the courts. If Rick really wants to pay his dues,
wouldn't it be accomplished better by confronting his crimes, helping
study them and trying to prevent other men from going down the same
path?
Martha Sprowles
>
> Martha Sprowles (the Marvelous) quite eloquently posted in a.t-c ...
> |
> |Oh, come on, JB. Do you think his statement, hateful as it was, would
> |have had one zillionth of the impact it had if it had been spoken
> |privately to Mark Klass? That was for show--bravado.
>
> And so that makes it more acceptable?
It makes it more understandable, I think. This man has had *all* power
stripped from him--he isn't even able to go to the toilet when he wants
to. Haven't you known people who, when they are most powerless, *have*
to make some defiant gesture, although all it does is ensure another
kick in the ass?
And I know that you know I'm not excusing anything he did, or trying to
imply that his own actions didn't put him in that position. I'm just
trying to put his ugly gesture into a more human context. Of course it
was an awful thing to do; it was meant to hurt, and I'm sure it did
hurt. But I think the bad press it brought Davis (as if a
child-murderer could *get* bad press) probably hurt him more than it did
anyone else, including Mark Klass. I mean, despite Evlart's suggestion
that one reason Davis might have said it is that it *might* have been
the truth, I am not aware that anyone really took Davis's statement
seriously. Or seriously enough to investigate Mark Klass for incest.
> |I was rereading The Autobiography of Malcolm X over the weekend, and I
> |was struck again by Malcolm's insight. The white people he offended
> |were as offended by him calling them "white devils" as by anything else.
> |Malcolm raised the question: Do we have to take your abuse, and find
> |you lovable, too? Is there any doubt that Richard Davis was full of
> |anger and despair at that moment? Did he have to pretend to love his
> |persecutors as well? Was anyone about to show *him* a little respect?
>
> No, noone expected him to pretend to LOVE anyone.
Malcolm's point was that it is important to the people in power that
they be seen as good and lovable, no matter who is doing that seeing or
how they've been treated. The slavemaster cherished the fantasy that he
was loved by his slaves, even as he had them whipped to death. I think
everyone wants to think of him or herself as basically a good person
(well, except Joe, who has told me he is not a good person), even in the
face of the most egregious misbehavior.
I saw a similarity with Davis' situation in that, even after the
horrendous crime he committed, people were outraged that he would sling
a ludicrous yet hurtful allegation as he was led away. That this man,
who surely must have hated everyone in the courtroom that day, all those
supporters of the Klasses who called Davis an "animal" and worse, would
dare to reveal his hatred--to *not* treat the courtroom as if all those
people were good and kind--seems to me to be another example of wanting
or even expecting someone who knows he is at the mercy of other people
to pretend to respect, even like, the people in power.
I know I'm not putting this very well. It's one of those things I feel
in a way I'm not able to articulate fully.
>
> As for the respect, I think he was shown plenty of respect by the mere fact
> that he was allowed to have his day in court, a lawyer to represent him, and
> permitted to speak on his own behalf. The fact that he wasn't taken out and
> lynched is a pretty big show of respect.
Well, yes and no. I think, in a way, to have been taken out and lynched
would have shown more respect for him as a person than to have him in
shackles sitting there listening to how bad he is. Not that I wouldn't
want him restrained--he is a dangerous person who should not be allowed
to rejoin society, ever. If his punishment had been direct and swift,
he would probably not have beem compelled to behave as he did. If the
(surely justifiable) rage Polly's parents--and others--felt against him
had been expressed immediately and openly, by lynching him or stoning
him to death, the whole thing would have seemed to me less hypocritical.
Now I'm *really* getting in trouble. I do find it hypocritical, in a
way, that such bloody, impassioned crimes should be judged in a cool,
measured fashion--with a veneer covering the savage beast that commits
these crimes and the savage beast that demands justice for them. Why
pretend that we want to be fair to a person who does such things? If I
were Polly Klass's mother, I would want to tear Richard Davis's head
off.
Most of what you say is true. Plenty of people suffer horrendous abuse
and do not become criminals--look at Joe. But some do. I wonder what
percentage of violent criminals had abuse in their childhoods, and what
kind of abuse. I think that people who are beaten daily and yet learn
somehow to feel compassion are in no danger of killing anyone; someone
who is never touched physically but who is tortured emotionally and
never shown love just might.
>
> |
> |I wish people could move on away from tsk-tsking over the crime: no one
> |has any problem saying that what happened to Polly Klass shouldn't have
> |happened to anyone, or that her family and the rest of us were hurt by
> |this man's actions. There really isn't anything to discuss re: that
> |part of the crime. His trial is over: he did it.
> |
> |Richard Davis is probably the most-hated man in the US--well, after Bill
> |Clinton. There isn't any need for us here at our little computers to
> |heap scorn upon him, unless we do it to make ourselves feel superior. I
> |don't think a person who truly is superior takes the easy way out,
> |though, and condemning a man who has been found guilty of a terrible
> |crime seems to me to be the easiest way out imaginable.
>
> I beg to differ with you here, Martha. I do think a superior person can
> condemn someone for making bad choices.
This is really where we differ, glas. I don't think *anyone* chooses to
kidnap and murder a child. In Davis's case, I would be that
drugs/alcohol were involved, so that his thinking was not clear. This
is not to excuse what he did, of course. No one should allow him or
herself to get to such a state. But many of us do, and most of us don't
kill anyone while we're in that state. I think there is an
inevitability about certain horrible crimes, particularly those
involving sex, that removes their commission from the realm of choice.
Having been given the same life
> options and making decidedly superior choices allows me to condemn. I knew
> better and so did he.
Well, but how do you know you had the same life options he did? I know
you made good decisions because I know something about you (and I'm
proud that I do), but how can you factor in everything that makes up a
person? If you see yourself as someone who might have chosen to do what
Davis did, why do you think you didn't do it? What made you choose to
do right, do you think, instead of turning to crime? Were you ever
tempted? Did you ever have to make the conscious decision *not* to
commit a crime?
(these are serious questions--I'd really like to know)\
>
> |
> |Stretching one's imagination to think about what could go on inside a
> |person's heart and head and soul to allow or compel him to do these
> |things is, to me, much more interesting and productive. But that
> |discussion, as usual, gets stomped out before it can even get started by
> |the righteous among us who have to make sure everyone hears their voices
> |condemning the condemned.
>
> Perhaps this would not occur if it weren't for the "compasionate" ones
> mouthing so many hurtful and victim bashing words that sound more excuses
> and mollycoddling than understanding.
Now, glas. Who has bashed a victim? Not I, surely. If my words have
been hurtful to a victim, I apologize. I am not really talking about
the victim; I'm talking about protecting future victims. I operate on
the assumption that everyone here believes that Polly Klass was brutally
murdered, that she did nothing to deserve this, that her family did
nothing to deserve this pain; I don't feel that it needs to be said
again.
And I've explicitly said that I don't excuse Davis's actions; I've used
words like "horrendous" to describe them. I do not advocate
"mollycoddling," either--I've said more than once that he is too
dangerous to be allowed to return to society, ever. I just want to
understand what makes this kind of thing happen, that's all.
>
> glas
>
> |
> |Martha
Martha Sprowles
>
> In article <36803E...@erols.com>,
> spro...@erols.com wrote:
> > I was rereading The Autobiography of Malcolm X over the weekend, and I
> > was struck again by Malcolm's insight. The white people he offended
> > were as offended by him calling them "white devils" as by anything else.
> > Malcolm raised the question: Do we have to take your abuse, and find
> > you lovable, too?
>
> well. But isn't that what you're asking everyone else to do for the various
> criminals who victimize them? This essentially creates a double standard in
> favor of the abusers-- they are allowed to express their rage, but no one
> else is. Everyone else is required to be pseudo-enlightened and forgive
> them, but they are not required to do so.
Now, Hoover (I don't have to call you Chester, do I?). Are you saying
that we should take our cues about how to behave from murderers? That
because Richard Allen Davis did not show compassion, we shouldn't,
either? Do you really want to model your behavior on the behavior of
someone like that? Aren't we somehow "better" than that?
>
> > Is there any doubt that Richard Davis was full of
> > anger and despair at that moment?
>
> No.
>
> > Did he have to pretend to love his persecutors as well?
>
> No. Do they?
Of course not.
>
> > Was anyone about to show *him* a little respect?
>
> He doesn't have to show anyone any respect. But he has killed their little
> girl, so the family is not necessarily wrong in not showing him any respect
> ;).
His anger and rage at his position, having been convicted of this
particularly horrible murder, prodded him imho into behaving as he did.
I believe it was *his* feeling that as he was being treated (in his
opinion), so would he treat others. Afaic, that is a childish and
wrong-headed way to go about things, and I won't do it. Thus, I think
that the rest of us, who are not convicted of murder and stumbling along
in shackles, have a duty to ourselves to hold ourselves to a higher
level of conduct than a convicted murderer. And that, to me, means
being big enough to show compassion where it is not, apparently,
"deserved."
And not to get religious here, who among us deserves compassion? Yet we
get it, all the time. Who has not had second chances, and third, and
fourth? Did we deserve that? I know I didn't.
>
> > I feel ridiculous having to explain this again: I hate the crime he
> > committed. Polly Klass was martyred to whatever drove Richard Davis to
> > do what he did.
>
> No one but Richard Davis knows whether he was actually *driven* to do what he
> did. I actively dislike pretty, spoiled little girls, but my cursed
> objectivity requires me to point out that Polly Klass did not decide to be a
> "martyr" to the cause of child abusers' feelings. I think she might have had
> other other plans for her life. Just putting her feelings up there on an
> equal level with the victimizer's.
I called Polly Klass a martyr to indicate that she did nothing to
deserve this attack; she did not become a martyr willingly--who would?
And as I explained to Glas, I don't think anyone here would challenge
the assertion that Polly Klass (and her family) are innocent victims
deserving of our utmost sympathy and compassion. I just don't think
that needs saying again and again, imho.
>
> > Her family and friends--everyone who knows about this
> > murder--will never be the same. Richard Davis didn't steal just a
> > child; he stole from all of us, and that's a lot to forgive.
>
> He didn't steal anything from me. I actively dislike spoiled, pretty little
> girls like Polly Klass, and I sympathize with "poison containers" who don't
> like being forced to shoulder the burdens of societal abuse without
> retaliation. Nevertheless, my cursed objectivity forces me to point out that
> only Polly Klass is in a position to forgive Davis. The he's-a-human-being
> crowd are not.
I don't know that Polly Klass was spoiled. I do not think she was
especially pretty. I don't know what these things have to do with it.
And if he didn't steal anything from you, you're lucky. He stole peace
of mind from me. He forced me to think about events I really would
prefer not to think about. He made me worry, and he made me cry for
this girl and her family. He forced me to know that he exists. And
this puts me in a position to forgive him, too. Plenty of people are in
a position to forgive Richard Davis, if they choose to do so.
>
> > He has been tried, found guilty, and he may even die for his crime.
> >
> > No one defends his actions as being *right* except in the sense that he
> > had no choice in performing them,
>
> Only he and perhaps his victim know whether he had "no choice."
Do you think any sane person consciously *chooses* to kidnap and murder
a child?
>
> > that whatever personal demons drove
> > him that night to do what he did forced the inevitable to occur.
>
> "Whatever personal demons" ?? Supposedly we're in the mood to "understand"
> him, so why don't we dissect those "personal demons" that allegedly "drove"
> him and forced the "inevitable." Or is "understanding" a euphemism for
> simply attributing *sympathetic* motives to him? As I have said, in many
> cases people leave out the ego, narcissism, immorality and general abusive
> nature of abusers. They arrive at ridiculously one-sided stories of
> childhood traumas, and they leave out any negative-sounding factors which
> contributed to the sociopath's development.
I don't quarrel with what you say. I do quarrel with your apparent
belief that this is all volitional. Most people who commit violent
crimes, imho, do have demons of one sort or another, call them what you
will. I believe this because I do not believe anyone, ever, *chooses*
to be evil. Have you ever chosen to be evil? Not to do some bad thing,
but to *be* evil?
>
> > What
> > he did was horrible.
> > But he is a person all the same, born with the
> > same emotional equipment the rest of us have.
> > Something happened;
>
> Truth be told, something did not happen. He DID something. Many things,
> actually. But again, I don't want to judge Mr. Davis personally. He may
> very well have a right to commit terrible acts back at society, or his
> capacity may be diminished. I don't know, but I do know the
> let's-pay-attention-to-the-criminals society doesn't know either.
This is pretty insulting. You don't think we, as a society, ought to
pay attention to criminals? Do you think there will never be another
kidnapping, or rape, or murder? Shouldn't we be interested in why some
people who are, for example, abused as children grow up to commit
violent crimes and others who are just as abused--or worse--grow up to
be fine citizens and loving parents? I am; I think this is a
fascinating problem, and I'd love to be able to talk about it without
being called names and having constantly to disabuse people about how I
feel about victims.
Martha
>
> > we
> > know he was abused
>
> I don't know any such thing.
>
> > (the fact that we have only his word for it is
> > meaningless: he believes himself to have been abused, and that is what
> > he reacts to.
>
> I don't know that is what he reacts to, or that he even is merely "reacting."
>
> > Whether you or I would call it abuse is irrelevant),
>
> It seems relevant to me. On the one hand we may be talking about a person
> who has been driven to something, or on the other hand we may be talking
> about a person who at least has a cognitive disorder (falsely perceiving
> victimization where there is none) or at worse is a manipulative liar.
>
> > and
> > we know he was habitually "stoned." I think both of these things count
> > toward understanding, *not* excusing, what he did.
>
> I think something's missing from the "understanding". Could a willing
> choice on the criminal's part to be aggressive, narcissistic, selfish,
> involved in violent sexual fantasies, etc., be part of the equation, too? I
> think so.
>
> > I wish people could move on away from tsk-tsking over the crime: no one
> > has any problem saying that what happened to Polly Klass shouldn't have
> > happened to anyone, or that her family and the rest of us were hurt by
> > this man's actions.
>
> I wasn't particularly hurt. Nonetheless, I know how to put Polly Klass's
> rights ahead of Mr. Davis's feelings, and consequently I just can't go
> fawning all over Mr. Davis's alleged childhood abuse. I have no problem with
> you, but some people here ...
>
> > There really isn't anything to discuss re: that
> > part of the crime. His trial is over: he did it.
> >
> > Richard Davis is probably the most-hated man in the US--well, after Bill
> > Clinton. There isn't any need for us here at our little computers to
> > heap scorn upon him, unless we do it to make ourselves feel superior.
>
> I think many people who feel sorry for the criminal do so to feel superior.
> They're calmer than the angry victims, stabler than the criminals whom they
> patronize, and more enlightened than the people who don't "understand" the
> criminal.
>
> > I
> > don't think a person who truly is superior takes the easy way out,
> > though, and condemning a man who has been found guilty of a terrible
> > crime seems to me to be the easiest way out imaginable.
> >
> > Stretching one's imagination to think about what could go on inside a
> > person's heart and head and soul to allow or compel him to do these
> > things is, to me, much more interesting and productive.
>
> However, the truth is sometimes unpleasant, as we have often been told.
>
> > But that
> > discussion, as usual, gets stomped out before it can even get started by
> > the righteous among us who have to make sure everyone hears their voices
> > condemning the condemned.
> >
> > Martha
>
> -- Chester
CAP...@webtv.net
HOW MANY OF YOU "EXPERTS" HAVE EVEN BEEN NEAR A PRISON???
Because you sure as heck do NOT know what you are talking about!!!
Since "WE" own the prisons, most states make arrangements for a prison
orientation at the Dept of CORRECTIONS
and "tour" - ALSO THE PRISONS ALWAYS NEED VOLUNTEERS, ESPECIALLY
LITERACY TEACHERS!!!