Andras & Agnes Pandy:Father & daughter serial-family killing duo in Belgium,an update
Joe1orbit
Hello,
Here are two additional updates on the fascinating Andras Pandy serial-family
murder case that continues to unfold in Belgium. In this update we learn more
about the stunning arrest of Agnes Pandy, the oldest daughter of Andras, and
how she has now confessed to committing some murders herself, and
witnessing/assissting her father Andras in the commission of other killings.
While being questioned by police, Agnes did admit to killing her own mother,
all by herself. And to aiding Andras in the killing of at least 4 or 5 other
relatives. A spokesperson for the police investigators states that "It was she
alone who killed her mother and she participated with her father in murdering
four other members of her family." A police spokesman goes on to state that "It
was the father who ordered the murders", AND that Agnes WAS indeed involved in
an incestuous sexual relationship with her father. Agnes also confessed to try
to kill another step-sister, in 1995, at the URGING of her father, but that
attempt was unsuccessful.
Police continue to hint that than 6 people were likely murdered, either by
Andras, Agnes, or the two of them together. DNA tests show FOUR sets of dead
human remains buried under the basement of one of Andras's houses, NONE of them
matching the DNA of any of the six missing relatives that Andras is charged
with killing. An unconfirmed report suggests that these 4 bodies are from
Hungarian women that Andras romanced and lured to his house in Belgium, before
killing them.
Agnes has CONFESSED to participating in the murder of five relatives. Three
of them were apparently beaten to death with sledgehammers! The other 2,
including Agnes's mother, were shot to death. Agnes states that she herself
shot her mother to death, then Daddy Andras and her together cut up and
disposed of the bodies in order to avoid discovery. She states that some body
parts had been dissolved in acid. Other parts wrapped in plastic and abandoned
outdoors. So it is very possible that Andras & Agnes disposed of ALL the body
parts of the 5 or 6 FAMILY members that they killed, TOGETHER. And the bones
found in the basement of Andras's house come from four OTHER women, that Andras
himself killed, without any aid or knowledge by his daughter, Agnes!
So, more new and intriguing developments are unfolding, and I will stay on
top of this story, to the best of my ability.
Take care, JOE
The following appears courtesy of today's Agence France-Presse news wire:
Belgian pastor and daughter killed five relatives: police
Agence France-Presse
Sat, 22 Nov 1997
BRUSSELS, Nov 22 (AFP) - A murder investigation of a 71-year-old pastor in
Belgium took a gruesome new twist Saturday when police announced his daughter
had confessed to helping him kill several of their family members.
Agnes Pandy, 39, broke down under questioning and admitted to involvement in
the murders of five relatives, including her own mother, Brussels public
prosecutor Francois Monsieur told reporters.
"It was the father who ordered the murders," said Monsieur, who added that the
two had conducted an incestuous relationship.
"As for motives, we know absolutely nothing," he said.
It also appeared possible that more victims would be identified. Initial tests
indicated that remains found at one of Hungarian-born pastor Andras Pandy's
homes in Brussels did not belong to family members, Monsieur said.
Andras Pandy has been charged with murdering two ex-wives and four of his eight
children between 1986 and 1990. He has denied the charges and has refused to
speak to prosecutors for the past month.
Agnes Pandy confessed to the murder of five relatives. Two were beaten with a
sledgehammer and three -- including her mother Ilona Sores -- were shot,
Monsieur said.
It was the daughter's statements to police about her father that led to the
arrest of the Hungarian-born pastor last month.
Monsieur quoted Agnes Pandy, who was arrested Thursday, as saying that she
herself had killed her mother and that the victims' bodies had been cut up and
disposed of to prevent discovery.
"Some bits had been dissolved in acid. Others were put in plastic bags and
placed near abbatoirs" in Brussels, Monsieur said.
Andras Pandy's ex-wives, two sons and two daughters disappeared without trace
between 1986 and 1990. He was said to have hired Hungarian "actors" to play the
role of missing family members on occasion to divert suspicion.
During the investigation, police found traces of blood on a stairwell and flesh
of undetermined origin in refrigerators at two of Pandy's three homes in
Brussels.
Bones from four bodies were found under a concrete slab in the basement of one
of the homes in late October. DNA tests were incomplete, "but I deduce from the
investigation that they were not family members," Monsieur said.
Press reports speculated that the bones were those of four Hungarian women
lured from eastern Europe.
Monsieur said he could not confirm this, but that his office was awaiting
information from Hungarian authorities.
A search of the third home turned up an urn containing what Pandy said were the
ashes of a sister who died in Hungary in 1994.
Monsieur said Agnes Pandy also confessed to trying to kill a step-sister,
Timea, in 1995 at her father's urging. Timea, 33, currently lives in Hungary
with her child, whose father was Andras Pandy, Monsieur said.
He added that Agnes Pandy did not know what happened to another step-sister,
Tunde, the last remaining family member not accounted for.
The horrific nature of the case and the increasingly bizarre details uncovered
and reported have added to a string of other recent nightmarish killings in
Belgium.
In a little over a year, paedophile Marc Dutroux has been charged in the
abduction killings of six Belgian girls, Patrick Derochette has been charged
with the abduction and rape of a nine-year-old girl, and police are hunting a
serial killer who has left plastic bags containing the cut-up remains of four
women in the southern city of Mons.
------------------------------------
The following appears courtesy of today's Reuters news wire:
By David Evans
BRUSSELS, Nov 22 (Reuters) - The daughter of a Belgian clergyman accused of
murdering six relatives said she alone was responsible for one of the killings,
that of her own mother, the Public Prosecutor's office said on Saturday.
Agnes Pandy, 39, who was arrested on Thursday in a new twist to Belgium's
latest macabre murder saga, also said she had taken part in four of the other
murders.
``She states she has killed five members of her family,'' a spokeswoman for the
Public Prosecutor's Office said on RTBF radio.
``It was she alone who killed her mother and she participated with her father
in murdering four other members of the family. The motive for these killings
has yet to be determined.''
Pandy was charged with committing or aiding in murder and attempted murder. She
also admitted the attempted murder of another family member, the spokeswoman
added.
It was not immediately clear whether Pandy's confession would result in the
number of murder charges against her father, Protestant clergyman Andras Pandy,
being cut from six to five.
Hungarian-born Andras Pandy, 70, was arrested last month and charged with
murdering his two former wives and four of his eight children.
A naturalised Belgian who used to teach religion in schools in the
Dutch-speaking north of the country, he has consistently denied the charges.
He has also volunteered to take a lie detector test, although such evidence is
inadmissible in a Belgian court.
Police searching his three Brussels homes have found human bones and teeth
belonging to at least three people in one of them as well as slabs of frozen
meat of uncertain origin.
BRTN television said on Friday initial DNA tests on the bones and teeth had
indicated they came from four bodies, none of which matched the known DNA
samples of the Pandy family.
Pandy's two wives and the four children have been missing since the late 1980s.
Pandy has always maintained that they returned to Hungary.
But in 1991, Agnes accused her father of sexually abusing her and said she was
worried about the fate of the missing members of her family.
Police were unable to verify the complaints, and the case was dropped despite
information from a Dutch pastor worried about the lack of news from Pandy's
missing first wife Edith Fintor.
The case was only reopened in September this year.
Hungarian police checking out Pandy's home there said last month they had
interviewed two girls and a boy hired by Pandy to impersonate some of his
missing children in the hope of putting police off the scent when they first
began investigating him.
The children told police they had played the roles several times, most recently
in 1996.
The international investigations have been further complicated by some doubts
over Andras Pandy's true identity following suggestions that the man being held
in Belgium might in fact be his brother.
Pandy has lived in Belgium for some 30 years since fleeing the 1956 Hungarian
uprising. But he made frequent trips back to Hungary, and found his second wife
through an advertisement in a local newspaper.
10:19 11-22-97
Martha Sprowles
Joe1orbit wrote:
<snip>
> Agnes WAS indeed involved in
> an incestuous sexual relationship with her father.
Whoooooooo, Joe! On a *roll*!!!
Martha
Joe1orbit
Hello,
Here is an update on the fascinating serial-family murder case that continues
to unfold in Belgium, where 71 year old protestant priest Andras Pandy, and now
his oldest daughter, Agnes, with whom he had an incestuous relationship, are
suspected of being multiple murderers, killing at least 6, and most likely more
than 10 people. Some of these killings were likely committed by Andras alone,
others committed by Agnes alone, and still others in which both of them
participated.
In this update we get some more details of the confession that Agnes Pandy
gave to police on Thursday. We learn that Agnes has admitted to helping Andras
kill at least four close relatives, including two of her own brothers, then
dismember the bodies, place them in plastic bags, and dump them outside of a
slaughterhouse in the area. Some of the dead corpses were placed in bathtubs
full of acid in order to help dissolve the flesh, tissues, and bones. Agnes
also admitted that it was she and she alone, who murdered her own mother. The
killings were committed over a four year time period, in the mid-late 1980's,
which definately means this is a serial murder case, not a mass murder incident
of any sort.
We learn that Daddy Andras is STILL denying that he killing anyone, and is
refusing to cooperate with police in their investigation. My opinion is that
there ARE some people that Andras did kill, not familial relatives, that he
killed all on his own, without any help or the knowledge of his daughter Agnes.
The fact that ALL of the bones and teeth found in the basement of Andras's
house are NOT DNA matches with ANY of the 6 relatives that we know have
disappeared and presumed dead, leads to the logical conclusion that at least
ten people have been murdered. One or 2 by Agnes alone, with Andras's
knowledge. 3-5 others who were murdered by Andras, with the full knowledge and
aid of Agnes, AND at least four other people, women that Andras was romancing
most likely, that he murdered all by himself. Oh what a tangled web they
weave...... I just hope that the complete truth does eventually come out. I
would hate to think that Andras will be deprived of being credited with the
total number of victims he did claim, in the true crime historical legacy
books.
Take care, Joe
The following appears courtesy of today's Reuters news wire:
By David Evans
BRUSSELS, Belgium (Reuters) - The daughter of a Belgian clergyman has confessed
to helping him kill four close relatives, including her two brothers, dismember
the bodies and dump them in plastic bags outside a slaughterhouse, the Brussels
Public Prosecutor's Office said Sunday.
Thirty-nine-year-old Agnes Pandy also admitted she alone had murdered her own
mother, her father's first wife.
In gruesome testimony to police Thursday, Pandy said she and her father either
shot or battered their victims to death with a sledgehammer over a four-year
period in the late 1980s.
They then used acid baths to dissolve some of the corpses. Others were hacked
up, put in plastic sacks and dumped outside an abattoir in the Anderlecht
district of Brussels.
``She says the bodies were either put in acid or cut up and left mixed in with
the rubbish from the slaughterhouse,'' a spokeswoman for the prosecutor's
office told Reuters.
The five were her mother Ilona Sores, brothers Daniel and Zoltan, her
stepmother and father's second wife Edith Fintor, and Fintor's daughter Andrea.
Tunde, another of Fintor's daughters, is still missing.
The spokeswoman said it was too early to say whether the confession would
result in the number of murder charges against her father, Protestant clergyman
Andras Pandy, being cut from six to five.
``Andras still has to be interrogated, and at the moment he is not
cooperating,'' she said.
Hungarian-born Andras Pandy, 71, was arrested last month and charged with
murdering his two former wives and four of his eight children. Agnes Pandy was
arrested and charged with murder and aiding in murder Thursday.
A naturalized Belgian, Andras used to teach religion in schools in the
Dutch-speaking north of the country. He has consistently denied the charges and
volunteered to take a lie detector test, although such evidence is inadmissible
in a Belgian court.
Agnes told police all the murders took place in Pandy's house in Quai de
l'Industrie in the poor Brussels quarter of Molenbeek between 1986 and 1989.
It was in this house that police found human bones and teeth belonging to four
people as well as slabs of frozen meat of uncertain origin. Initial tests have
not been able to match the remains with the known DNA samples of the Pandy
family, media reports have said.
This has heightened speculation the death toll in Belgium's latest macabre
murder saga could rise to at least 10, with the suspicion Pandy enticed women
to Brussels from Hungary through newspaper advertisements offering a trial
marriage.
The prosecutor's office declined to comment on the speculation.
Andras Pandy has lived in Belgium for some 30 years since fleeing the 1956
Hungarian uprising. But he made frequent trips back to Hungary, and found his
second wife through an advertisement in a local newspaper there.
His two wives and the four children have been missing since the late 1980s.
Pandy has always maintained that they returned to Hungary.
But in 1991, Agnes accused her father of sexually abusing her and said she was
worried about the fate of the missing members of her family.
Hungarian police checking out Pandy's home there said last month they had
interviewed two girls and a boy hired by Pandy to impersonate some of his
missing children in the hope of putting police off the scent when they first
began investigating him.
The children told police they had played the roles several times, most recently
in 1996.
There has as yet been no link made between the Pandy case and the discovery in
March and April this year in the southern city of Mons of the
surgically-severed limbs of four women, deposited in plastic bin bags in
various locations with suggestive names such as Worry Street and Hate Street.
10:42 11-23-97
Joe1orbit
Hello,
It looks like those bumbling police authorities in Belgium are getting a
little frustrated over their inability to get Andras Pandy to admit to having
anything to do with the murders of his six family members, or with the
discovery of bone and tooth fragments coming from FOUR ADDITIONAL unknown
people buried underneath the basement floor at one of the three houses that our
71 year old protestant priest owns.
Naturally they cannot vent their rage and frustration in a public forum,
towards Andras himself. And so they are instead publicly criticizing the
Hungarian police and investigative authorities, declaring that they are not
being co-operative and their actions are actually hindering the Belgian police
in their investigation. You will recall, of course, that Andras was born in
Hungary, grew up there, and traveled VERY frequently to Hungary, right up until
his arrest. He also owned a small house in Hungary, and apparently preferred
Hungarian women as his girlfriends, sex-partners, wives, AND murder victims!
The Belgian Prosecutors say that they have not received requested information
from the Hungarian authorities, and that public statements that have been made
by the chief Hungarian investigator regarding Agnes Pandy are harmful to the
ongoing investigation.
This Hungarian colonel is the one who has publicly declared that Agnes Pandy
was "heavily influenced'" by her father, in the 5 family member murders that
she has admitted participating in or committing. He further stated that Andras
"ordered" Agnes to murder a step-sister in 1984, who had engaged in sexual
intercourse with Andras, became pregnant, and gave birth to a child. Andras
feared that this step-sister would reveal the incest to authorities, and that
is why he ordered daughter Agnes to kill this other daughter. All this is
SPECULATION, I would assume, that the Hungarian colonel being criticized by
Belgian police, chose to publicly engage in. Andras continues to deny ALL
involvement in ALL the murders. So even if Agnes told all this to police, that
hardly makes it true, since Agnes has a history of lying.
Police say they intend to continue questioning and interrogating Agnes, who
remains in prison. Later on this week, they intend to confront Andras with all
the information that Agnes is giving them, and they also plan to set up a
face-to-face meeting between Agnes and Andras, both of whom are in jail.
In my opinion, the police should have NO right to "create" a face-to-face
meeting between the two, unless BOTH andras and Agnes specifically AGREE that
they WANT to see and speak with each other, in the presence of police and
investigators. If EITHER Andras or Agnes states they do NOT wish for the
meeting to occur, Belgian police should be legally PROHIBITED from bringing the
two of them together.
Of course, I'm sure that the laws in Belgium can be interpreted and used in
such a way as to legally "force" this meeting to occur. Police all across this
Pathetic Planet know how to manipulate laws and statutes in such a way as to
make their desires into a reality, even when those desires are a violation of a
prisoner's Civil and Human Rights.
Anyway, I will remain vigilant for new developments in this case. But I will
also be going away on my regular monthly trip later this week. So all I can do
is my best, insofar as providing updates before and after that trip occurs.
Take care, JOE
The following appears courtesy of today's Agence France-Presse news wire:
Belgian police accuse Hungarians of hindering murder probe
Agence France-Presse
Tue, 25 Nov 1997
BRUSSELS, Nov 25 (AFP) - Belgian prosecutors Tuesday accused Hungarian police
of failing to co-operate with investigations into murders allegedly committed
by pastor Andras Pandy, together with his daughter, Agnes.
Brussels' prosecutor's office said it had been waiting for two weeks for
replies to queries made to Hungarian police in connection with the killings of
six members of the Pandy family between 1986 and 1990.
The prosecutors also said comments made by Hungarian police colonel Lajos
Kovacs relating to Agnes Pandy's involvement in the murders could be
detrimental to the investigation.
Agnes Pandy, 39, the pastor's eldest daughter, said last week that she and her
father, with whom she had an incestuous relationship, had together murdered
five family members.
Hungarian-born Andras Pandy, 71, continues to deny that he killed two ex-wives
and four of his children, and refuses to divulge further information.
His daughter's confession and the confirmation Monday that human remains found
at one of the homes were of both relatives and non-relatives, led prosecutors
to fear the couple may have murdered as many as 10 people.
Flemish press reports last week speculated that bones found under a concrete
slab in one of Pandy's homes were those of a Hungarian woman who arrived in
Belgium with her daughter after replying to a personal advert placed by the
pastor in search of a wife.
In Budapest, Kovacs said that Agnes Pandy was heavily influenced by her father
who ordered her to murder a step-sister, Timea, in 1984, who had had a child by
the pastor.
The police chief suggested that when Timea tried to leave the family, the
father was afraid she would reveal the incest and so ordered her murder.
Belgian prosecutors intend to continue questioning Agnes Pandy and, at the end
of the week, they hope to set up a face-to-face meeting between father and
daughter.
----------------------------------------
The following appears courtesy of today's Reuters news wire:
By Jeremy Lovell
BRUSSELS, Nov 25 (Reuters) - Police said on Tuesday they were checking to see
if a Protestant priest and his eldest daughter may have killed as many as 10
people in Belgium's latest grisly mass murder investigation.
Agnes Pandy, 39, has already admitted killing her mother and taking part in the
murder of four other close family members with her father Andras, 70. One other
family member is missing.
Police searches of three houses in Brussels owned by Hungarian-born Andras
Pandy have found teeth and bones belonging to four people as well as slabs of
frozen meat of uncertain origin.
``The bones found at Rue Vandermaelen were not from the six members of her
family. That means there could be another four people who were murdered by the
father or by both,'' Jos Colpin, spokesman for Brussels public prosecutors,
told Reuters.
The horrific tale follows hard on the heels of the arrest of convicted multiple
child rapist Marc Dutroux, charged with murdering four girls in a case which
has traumatised Belgium and shaken citizens' belief in their justice system.
Andras Pandy, a naturalised Belgian who taught religion in the Dutch speaking
northern part of Belgium, was arrested last month on suspicion of killing the
six missing members of his family including his two wives and four of his eight
children. He denies the charges.
Agnes, arrested last Thursday, told police she and her father had either shot
their victims or bludgeoned them with a sledgehammer.
They then hacked up the bodies, dissolved what they could in household drain
cleaner and dumped the rest in plastic sacks alongside waste from a Brussels
abattoir.
All the killings took place between 1986 and 1989.
The five dead are Agnes's mother and Pandy's first wife Ilona Sores, her sons
Daniel and Zoltan, Agnes's stepmother and father's second wife Edith Fintor,
and Fintor's daughter Andrea.
Agnes has also admitted helping her father in a failed attempt to murder his
step-daughter Timea, by whom he had fathered a son, Mark, in 1984. She now
lives in Hungary.
Tunde, another of Fintor's daughters, is still missing.
Agnes, charged with murder and abetting murder, said all the murders took place
in Pandy's house in Quai de l'Industrie in the poor Brussels quarter of
Molenbeek.
Andras Pandy has lived in Belgium for some 30 years since fleeing Hungary after
the anti-communist uprising of 1956.
He made frequent trips to Hungary, and found his second wife through an
advertisement in a local newspaper there, prompting speculation the remains of
the four people found so far may be those of other women who replied to his
advertisements.
In yet another grisly case, police in March and April discovered the surgically
severed limbs of four women in the city of Mons, deposited in plastic bin bags
in locations with suggestive names such as Worry Street and Hate Street. The
case has not been linked to Pandy.
14:06 11-25-97