Stineman/Bishop: Another victim or suspect may be connected to case
Patty
Speculation grows that another victim or suspect could be involved after
Bishop's friends are shown a new photo
By Claire Booth, Tony Hicks and Andrew LaMar
Contra Costa Times
CONCORD -- Coroner's deputies have positively identified three victims of a
bloody killing spree amid speculation that authorities are searching for
another victim or suspect.
Sacramento County Coroner's Office officials said Friday that the
dismembered remains found in the Delta are those of Selina Bishop, 22, and
Annette Stineman, 78. Stineman's 85-year-old husband, Ivan, was identified
Wednesday.
Although police say they do not suspect anyone else was involved, friends of
Bishop said Friday that investigators have shown them the photo of a man not
previously identified in connection with the case. The picture of a blond
man in his 30s raises the possibility of another suspect or victim.
Glenn Taylor Helzer, 30, his brother Justin Helzer, 28, and Dawn Godman,
26 -- in custody on unrelated charges -- are suspects in the case, which has
claimed five lives so far.
The bodies of Bishop's mother, Jennifer Villarin, 45, and her companion,
James Gamble, 54, were found in Bishop's Marin County home Aug. 3.
The link between the Marin couple and the Stinemans of Concord is Bishop,
the daughter of blues guitarist Elvin Bishop. The Woodacre resident's
unknown role in the case has become the focal point of the investigation.
"She was clearly a victim. It remains to be seen if she was an accomplice,"
Hal Jewett, Contra Costa County deputy district attorney, said after a court
hearing Friday morning. Police said Friday that they need to authenticate it
but believe they have been given Bishop's diary. They hope to use it to find
out more about her relationship with Glenn Helzer, with whom she was
romantically involved.
Police believe the Stinemans were killed during a botched extortion -- which
involved checks worth $100,000 written on the Stinemans' account.
In Marin County on Friday, friends of Bishop talked of money, the same
motive police say led to the extortion and killings.
Friends said Bishop deposited money in three of four bank accounts for Glenn
Helzer. She believed it was money he inherited from his grandmother and
needed to hide from his soon-to-be ex-wife.
"She was getting $5,000 for every $25,000 she put into it," said one of
Bishop's close friends, who asked not to be identified. "There was supposed
to be $100,000 altogether, and she was supposed to get $20,000. But any of
that money coming from that account, she would have thought it was coming
from legitimate sources.
"She would have rather earned her money by working her fingers to the bone
than by taking it from two elderly people," the friend said.
Olga Land, Bishop's aunt and Villarin's sister, said Villarin thought the
money came from an inheritance of Helzer's.
"My sister told me that Selina was getting part of an inheritance," Land
said, citing her last conversation with Villarin, two days before she died.
"Because this guy was really rich and wanted to share with Selina. He lied."
At a press conference Friday, police would not verify Bishop's bank
accounts, but said they continue to investigate what happened to the
Stinemans' checks.
"Our investigators are still working with financial institutions," said
Concord police Lt. Paul Crain.
Woody Wilson, whose mother owns the Paper Mill Creek Saloon where Villarin
worked as a bartender, said police came by Thursday and showed him and
others a photo of a blond man in his 30s -- raising the possibility of
another victim or suspect. The investigation continued elsewhere Friday as
Sacramento County Coroner Paul Smith confirmed the identities of the three
victims found in black bags in the Mokelumne River near Rio Vista.
A forensic pathologist has examined six of eight bags and will open and
investigate the remaining two today and Sunday. The coroner said it was
decided it would be best for one pathologist to examine all the bags, so it
is taking more time.
"The degree of dismemberment ... was very significant," Smith said. "It is
pretty horrific."
The bags contain the remains of at least three victims. Smith said he could
not rule out the possibility that the remaining bags could contain an
additional victim.
The killers apparently attempted to throw off investigators by mingling
parts of the victims in each of the bags, Smith said.
Divers from the Marin County Sheriff's Office will continue searching the
river during the weekend, said Sheriff's Sgt. Doug Pittman.
Jewett declined to comment on published reports speculating that there was a
connection to the occult and that victims' bodies had missing teeth and
organs, saying that the autopsies are not yet finished.
The bodies show evidence of trauma, coroner Smith said, but he could not
specify what kind.
"Thus far, and this is based on the six bags, there was some methodical
approach to it," Smith said of the way the killers cut up the bodies. "The
degree of complexity of this case is extremely significant, and the cause of
death is probably as a result going to take a while to determine."
The three suspects appeared in Contra Costa Superior Court in Martinez on
Friday, but did not enter pleas. Their arraignment was postponed to Thursday
by Judge Michael Coleman.
None of the three have been charged with murder, but that could happen as
early as next week, Jewett said. No decision has been reached on whether
prosecutors will seek the death penalty.
The three were arrested at their Saddlewood Court home in Concord on Monday.
Justin Helzer and Godman are being held on drug and theft charges and Glenn
Helzer on charges of robbery, making threats and false imprisonment. Police
say Glenn Helzer fled during the arrest and broke into a neighboring house
where he threatened a woman so she would help him escape.'
All three are being held without bail at the County Jail in Martinez.
Crain said police will not release mug shots of the three because they plan
to show photo line-ups to potential witnesses. Anyone who saw pictures of a
suspect in the media might be influenced during police identification, he
said.
Friends say Selina Bishop met Glenn Helzer at a rave earlier this year.
"She said he had a weird side to him, but she really liked him. She said she
was sick of looking for a boyfriend," said Lena Kyle, Bishop's godsister.
"She said she wanted to spend the rest of her life with him."
Outside the Stineman home on Frayne Lane in Concord on Friday, two bouquets
of flowers were tied to a tree by a red ribbon while a handful of others lay
in front of the garage door.
"They were very cordial. They got along with everybody in the neighborhood.
They went out of their way to smile and wave and say 'hi,' " said Brett
Pardini, a 45-year-old roofing contractor who lives three doors from the
Stineman home.
"They didn't deserve a fate like that," he said.
Patty
A diary found among Selina Bishop's belongings is being searched for clues
about a possible extortion scheme that fueled a regional killing spree,
authorities said yesterday.
But while acknowledging the existence of the diary, detectives have not yet
confirmed it was written by Bishop, said Marin Sheriff's Sgt. Doug Pittman.
"We are aware of the alleged diary," Pittman said during a joint news
conference with Concord police. "We are in the process of determining its
authenticity and authorship."
The diary, if genuine, could provide more information about Bishop's
relationship with boyfriend Glenn Helzer, the former financial adviser at
the center of the murder mystery. It could also yield clues on Bishop's
involvement in the alleged extortion of an elderly couple in Concord.
Police, however, declined to release details about the diary or any other
evidence collected so far.
"We still have leads to pursue," said Concord Lt. Paul Crain.
snip
Coroner's investigators have so far examined seven of the eight duffel bags
pulled from the Delta. Reports that a ninth duffel bag had been found, this
one filled with clothing, could not be confirmed last night.
For a brief time yesterday, authorities in Sacramento thought they had found
a fourth victim among the remains. It turned out to be a false alarm
triggered by a flawed X-ray, but authorities said they still could not rule
out the possibility of more victims.
"We're not certain," said Crain. "We don't have conclusive evidence there
were just the five victims."
snip
Letters and documents found in Bishop's apartment could suggest her mother
was killed because she knew about an extortion scheme involving Helzer,
authorities said.
Police say Bishop opened a bank account at California Federal San Anselmo
and are investigating whether she was depositing extorted funds for Helzer
and taking a cut for herself. Police have said that two checks for $100,000
were written by Ivan Stineman and made out to Bishop.
Patty
By Rebecca Rosen Lum
Marin Independent Journal
Selina Bishop had an open and trusting nature, qualities that friends say
may have unwittingly led to her violent death.
"She was a quiet, shy girl," longtime friend Linda Nave said. "She is a
child who may have made a tragic choice in who she fell in love with."
Although longtime friends in Woodacre bristle at published reports that
Bishop had been associating with a rough crowd, many confess they suspected
the worst when her mother was shot to death.
She told everyone about her new boyfriend, "Jordan," whom she met at a rave,
an all-night dance party, according to friends.
"He would page her, and she would go meet him in Berkeley," said Thomasina
Wilson, Villarin's boss at the Paper Mill Creek Saloon. "And he would only
page her every 10 days or so. So you know there were other people he was
seeing in the meantime."
None of that set well with her mother, Jenny Villarin. And his source of
income remained troublingly vague, Wilson said.
"He told her he was holding a bunch of money from his grandfather, an
inheritance," said longtime friend Robin Seibach. Bishop had confided to
some that "Jordan" wanted to place the funds in accounts held by Bishop so
his wife, whom he was divorcing, could not seize it.
She called her mother's former boyfriend, Paul Zeigler, and effused about
her new love. Zeigler said she told him "he was going to be inheriting all
this money."
"Everyone is saying she was in on it," said Seibach, referring to
speculation that Bishop was involved in an extortion scheme. "I think the
truth is that when she found out what it was she was in on, she got out as
fast as she could. She called her mom and said, 'This is not what I thought
it was.' "
Her uncle, David Villarin, said he knows how Bishop would react if she
discovered the funds had been extorted from a couple her boyfriend had once
counseled as a stockbroker.
"I just know how Bean would react," he said, using Bishop's nickname. "She'd
want to tell her mom."
Bishop spoke in a voice so quiet one had to strain to hear her, yet friends
of Selina Bishop say she was energetic, level-headed and fun-loving.
"Even when she waited on tables, you would have to stop and listen," said
Linda Nave, who knew Bishop for 10 years. "I used to say she had the voice
of an angel."
In high school, teammates remembered her as funny, and say she played
volleyball with a passion and enjoyed other sports as well. They recall her
as being close to her family.
In fact, Selina Bishop used to make dinner for her mother and bring it to
her at work, said Thomasina Wilson.
Bishop, 22, was the daughter of blues guitarist Elvin Bishop, 57, and Jen-ny
Villarin, who was killed last week at 45, and for whom he is said to have
written his 1976 hit "Fooled Around and Fell in Love," and "Jennifer."
The two divorced 20 years ago, when Selina was still a toddler.
"We are talking about a baby who grew up in a small, tight-knit community, a
place where we keep our doors and our hearts open," said Nave. "Selina went
to grammar school here. I could dig out my daughter's yearbooks and show you
pictures of a beautiful young girl."
Friends describe her as a sweet-natured, playful, down-to-earth child. She
remained close to her father, who had remarried and had a second child, whom
Bishop would baby-sit.
Selina attended Lagunitas School's academic and enrichment program, then
middle school.
"She was never in trouble - not once, for anything," said Drake High
School's former assistant principal Betty Jordan, now principal of Vallecito
Elementary School.
About six years ago, mother and daughter moved to Pennsylvania to be with
Villarin's new boyfriend. The relationship foundered, and the two moved to a
rented duplex in the small town of Washington, near Pittsburgh. Bishop
graduated from Washington High School.
"People leave here because it's so expensive," Nave said of West Marin. "You
just get so tired of working so hard all the time just to meet your most
basic expenses. That was a big part of it for Jenny. But there's something
about this valley. While they lived away, Jenny kept in touch. For them, it
was home."
Villarin cleaned houses to put food on the table, and worked for a time as a
clerk in a convenience store.
After sampling classes at a community college, Bishop pronounced Washington,
Penn. boring, according to Mildred Gibson, a former neighbor in
Pennsylvania.
Bishop moved back to California, staying with her uncle, David Villarin, in
Salinas. Jenny Villarin followed about a year ago, and mother and daughter
eventually returned to Marin.
Bishop talked about enrolling in classes at College of Marin, and began
waiting tables at the Two Bird Cafe in San Geronimo.
"She was a very, very sweet woman," said Art Biada, who dined regularly at
the Two Bird with his wife and has had "a hard time sleeping" in recent
days.
Patty
April.
More excerpts from the San Francisco Examiner:
BRIEF COURT HEARING
The three suspects were at a brief court hearing in Contra Costa County
Superior Court yesterday to enter pleas to various criminal counts stemming
from a search of their Concord home on Monday. They have not been charged
with murder.
Glenn Helzer, who was the first suspect brought into the courtroom, sat in a
chair, turned to face his parents and nodded to them. Then Helzer turned
away and seemed to be talking with an imaginary person to the right of him.
At one point, he burst into laughter.
On the advice of their attorneys, the Helzers and Godman postponed entering
pleas until legal issues were sorted out.
Contra Costa County District Attorney Harold Jewett said he expects to file
murder charges against some or all of the suspects by next week.
``A lot of aspects to this case need to be explored,'' he said.
The Helzers' parents, Carma and Gerry Helzer, adamantly maintain their sons'
innocence, saying eventually the truth will surface. Other family members
and friends have painted the pair as once kind and caring young men who got
caught up in drugs, fell from grace in the Mormon church and possibly
dabbled in the occult.
BROTHERS CALLED OPPOSITES
A friend, who has spoken to police and doesn't want to be identified,
described the brothers as opposites. Justin Helzer is outgoing and
impulsive, he said. Glenn Helzer, the friend said, is more introspective and
mysterious but clearly the leader of the three suspects.
Godman, according to the source, had a crush on Glenn Helzer but wound up
dating his brother. When the older Helzer began seeing Bishop, there was
friction and resentment, he said.
``Justin just didn't get along with Selina,'' he said.
And Godman told Bishop that it wasn't a good idea for her to visit their
Concord home after the Marin woman showed up there unexpectedly looking for
Glenn Helzer, according to one of Bishop's friends.
He said it was well known that the brothers and Godman were having financial
difficulties. But in March, Godman began talking frequently of not having to
worry about money any more, said their friend.
``Dawn has said to us, `Things will always be taken care of,' '' he said.
``It threw us for a big loop.''
The source said that at the time, the three suspects talked often of the
Stinemans, and the source now believes that they had been planning for
weeks, or even months, to rob the couple.
Whether Bishop was in on the plot has yet to be determined. Her close
friends describe her relationship with Glenn Helzer as strange.
He wouldn't tell her his real name and only went by the alias, ``Jordan,''
said a lifelong friend.
Bishop was forbidden from calling Glenn Helzer at home and was told she
could never photograph him. Initially, at least, she didn't question his
motives.
``She was just so influenced by this man,'' she said. ``He was giving her
something no one else could give her -- what she thought was love.''
But in recent weeks, Bishop's friends said, she started to chafe at the
unusual restrictions and began taking notes on things she wanted to talk
about with him: Did they have a future together? Why couldn't she know his
real name? Why couldn't she ever go to his house?
JBrown6000
<<For a brief time yesterday, authorities in Sacramento thought they had found
a fourth victim among the remains. It turned out to be a false alarm
triggered by a flawed X-ray, but authorities said they still could not rule
out the possibility of more victims.
"We're not certain," said Crain. "We don't have conclusive evidence there
were just the five victims."
snip
Letters and documents found in Bishop's apartment could suggest her mother
was killed because she knew about an extortion scheme involving Helzer,
authorities said.
Police say Bishop opened a bank account at California Federal San Anselmo
and are investigating whether she was depositing extorted funds for Helzer
and taking a cut for herself. Police have said that two checks for $100,000
were written by Ivan Stineman and made out to Bishop.
**You've been posting some very interesting stuff on this case, so I'm assuming
you're from the area where this happened. This case is so convoluted, it's
hard to follow. Weren't the authorities originally looking for a boyfriend
named "Justin?" The brothers seem to go by their middle names, and supposedly,
Selina called her boyfriend (who was Glenn/Taylor) Justin. Am I misremembering
the earlier reports in this case?
jb
Patty
Article says mother urged sons to leave the Mormon Church.
Also says that Selina wanted to know more about raves and
why Helzer was interested in them. I thought they met at one,
I guess it was her first but how many do you have to attend to
understand them.
Excerpts from the San Jose Mercury:
Lena Kyle, 20, of Forest Knolls, is Bishop's best friend and god-sister.
Their mothers have been friends for 28 years.
Responding to reports that indicate Bishop may have banked large sums of
money for Helzer, Kyle said Friday that Bishop had a feeling it was ``most
likely drug money.''
For tax reasons, Helzer had told Bishop, he did not want to deposit the cash
in his own account, trying to keep it from his wife, whom he planned to
leave. Bishop apparently didn't mind.
snip
Kyle said she sensed Bishop ``didn't want to ask too many questions to scare
him away. She really liked him and wanted to settle down. She was sick of
stupid boys. He seemed like an older man with his feet on the ground and he
made her happy.''
People remember Helzer spreading around money, splurging on Bishop.
However, those who knew Helzer from the past paint a different picture. They
knew him as a devout Mormon, an up-and-coming financial adviser with the
Concord branch of Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, and the husband and father of
two daughters.
By 1999, he left it all behind. He left his family, spent more time with his
younger brother -- a longtime student at Diablo Valley College -- and
continued a budding drug habit, according to friends and neighbors.
Mormon Bishop Rick Andrus says the Helzer boys also excommunicated
themselves from the church, a formal process, at the urging of their mother,
Carma.
``He was charming, smart, funny, and very deep,'' said a friend and
ex-client of Glenn Helzer's who did not want to be identified. ``But then he
started changing in subtle ways.''
When he met Bishop, Helzer had an affinity for ``raves,'' all-night parties
noted for their open drug use. He may have seemed worldly to someone like
Bishop, say friends.
Kyle, like others around town, believe Helzer preyed on Bishop's innate
vulnerability. ``She didn't know how illegal this was, and if she ever knew
the money was being extorted from an old couple who would get murdered, she
never would have been involved,'' said Kyle.
Bishop knew that Helzer was into Gothic parties. In fact, she wanted to
bleach the tips of her hair red in preparation for a rave party that he had
invited her to. Though she never bleached her hair, she was curious to find
out about raves and why he was interested.
Kyle, however, never attended raves because she had heard that some members
were into satanism and dismembering animals.
According to Kyle, Bishop's mother thought her daughter might be opening a
bank account to deposit money from Bishop's grandmother -- blues guitarist
Elvin Bishop's late mother -- who had recently died.
That's how Bishop explained away new belongings like a CD player.
Kyle said people knew Bishop was supposed to inherit money from her
grandmother and that would have allowed her to keep her apartment.
No one expected the worst, not when it came to Bishop. Now people do.
``Whenever any one of my friends gets a new boyfriend now, I'm going to
demand their DMV printouts and get their first and last names,'' said Kyle.
Maggie
>The source said that at the time, the three suspects talked often of the
>Stinemans, and the source now believes that they had been planning for
>weeks, or even months, to rob the couple.
>
>Whether Bishop was in on the plot has yet to be determined. Her close
>friends describe her relationship with Glenn Helzer as strange.
>
>He wouldn't tell her his real name and only went by the alias, ``Jordan,''
>said a lifelong friend.
>
>Bishop was forbidden from calling Glenn Helzer at home and was told she
>could never photograph him. Initially, at least, she didn't question his
>motives.
>
>``She was just so influenced by this man,'' she said. ``He was giving her
>something no one else could give her -- what she thought was love.''
>
>But in recent weeks, Bishop's friends said, she started to chafe at the
>unusual restrictions and began taking notes on things she wanted to talk
>about with him: Did they have a future together? Why couldn't she know his
>real name? Why couldn't she ever go to his house?
***...why couldn't she get a clue? For pete's sake, this story has "patsy"
written all over it. I can't believe the cops think this poor dumb girl was in
on anything. She was clearly, with her total permission, apparently, being
used by these people and it also seems assured that they always planned to kill
her. Why are some woman so, so, so stupid about men????
Maggie
"A long dispute means that both parties are wrong." Voltaire
WWWoLadyA
>***...why couldn't she get a clue? For pete's sake, this story has "patsy"
>written all over it. I can't believe the cops think this poor dumb girl was
>in
>on anything. She was clearly, with her total permission, apparently, being
>used by these people and it also seems assured that they always planned to
>kill
>her. Why are some woman so, so, so stupid about men????
I swear it's a function of something other than intellect.
Seems to me there are too many apparently bright and successful women, who
exhibit an unremitting deficit in this one area.
A.
Anne Warfield
*weird*. I really hope someone writes a book about this one.
--
Anne Warfield
My cats' homepage--http://www.goodsol.com/cats/
Patty
: >
: >>Why are some woman so, so, so stupid about men????
: >
: pattyc said:
: >While I'm not saying it's an *excuse*....
: >
: >Do you think the fact USA culture promotes the idea that women are most
: >"successful" if they have a man, that the perfect ending to a story is in
: >the
: >"kiss" and getting the guy (Cinderella, etc.), that terms for women
without
: >men
: >are negative (old maid, spinster, etc.), that being beautiful (for men
: >obviously) is often the primary consideration with women... might have
: >anything to do with why? IMHO, some women feel they are failures without
: >Prince Charming. Since Prince Charming is a bit hard to come by, some
women
: >delude themselves into thinking some jerks are the prince. When the jerk
: >is
: >really the frog all along...
Maggie wrote:
: ***In a word, "no."
:
: But I suspect you want a little bit of an explanation.
:
: I think wanting a companion is a very human thing and that even in the
most
: egalitarian societies some women will put male companionship above all
other
: things--not because society tells them to, but because *they* crave the
: attention, love, company, whatever. Most of them (my opinion) grew up
without
: a father in their lives and they are continually looking for the male
attention
: they never got when they were children. Look at the women in our society
who
: make the dumbest choices about men--it's not the girls with whom you went
to
: college, or grew up (although lots of them, I'm sure, have made bad
choices),
: it's girls from inner cities who actually have babies just to have someone
love
: *them*. It's enough to make you sick. Take a look around at the women
you
: know who have made the stupidest choices in men. I bet you'd find that
most of
: them grew up without a strong male presence in their lives. For some
reason,
: little girls really, really need men to love them so that they don't spend
the
: rest of their lives looking for that love in all the wrong places.
:
It was apparent that Selina Bishop did not have much of a father in her
life.
Her parents split when she was three years old, and her father has/was
probably
on the road most of her life. I don't see where he played a very large role
at all
in her life and I think that she was looking for something that she never
received
from her father. Even when she moved back to California from Pittsburgh PA,
alone and not with her mother, she went to live with her mother's family in
Salinas
(100 miles away from Marin County), not with Elvin Bishop. He didn't even
go
to the memorial services for her last Saturday, he sent his brother-in-law,
saying
that he was too upset, having recently lost his mother and now this.
Yet he's going to perform this Thursday out of state. Perhaps he was too
distraught to attend the services, though, and I can understand that,
not wanting to face the press, although it didn't get big coverage here, the
story being replaced by the kidnapped child.
I find his song "I fooled around and fell in love" so ironic now.
PattyC4303
maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie) writes:
>Why are some woman so, so, so stupid about men????
While I'm not saying it's an *excuse*....
Do you think the fact USA culture promotes the idea that women are most
"successful" if they have a man, that the perfect ending to a story is in the
"kiss" and getting the guy (Cinderella, etc.), that terms for women without men
are negative (old maid, spinster, etc.), that being beautiful (for men
obviously) is often the primary consideration with women... might have
anything to do with why? IMHO, some women feel they are failures without
Prince Charming. Since Prince Charming is a bit hard to come by, some women
delude themselves into thinking some jerks are the prince. When the jerk is
really the frog all along...
PattyC
"Feminism is the radical notion that women are people."
Merc
Oh PattyC - what a wonderful evaluation - it put a smile on my face!
I completely agree with you and can add nothing further to such spot
on view!
Merc
Maggie
>
>>Why are some woman so, so, so stupid about men????
>
>While I'm not saying it's an *excuse*....
>
>Do you think the fact USA culture promotes the idea that women are most
>"successful" if they have a man, that the perfect ending to a story is in
>the
>"kiss" and getting the guy (Cinderella, etc.), that terms for women without
>men
>are negative (old maid, spinster, etc.), that being beautiful (for men
>obviously) is often the primary consideration with women... might have
>anything to do with why? IMHO, some women feel they are failures without
>Prince Charming. Since Prince Charming is a bit hard to come by, some women
>delude themselves into thinking some jerks are the prince. When the jerk
>is
>really the frog all along...
***In a word, "no."
But I suspect you want a little bit of an explanation.
I think wanting a companion is a very human thing and that even in the most
egalitarian societies some women will put male companionship above all other
things--not because society tells them to, but because *they* crave the
attention, love, company, whatever. Most of them (my opinion) grew up without
a father in their lives and they are continually looking for the male attention
they never got when they were children. Look at the women in our society who
make the dumbest choices about men--it's not the girls with whom you went to
college, or grew up (although lots of them, I'm sure, have made bad choices),
it's girls from inner cities who actually have babies just to have someone love
*them*. It's enough to make you sick. Take a look around at the women you
know who have made the stupidest choices in men. I bet you'd find that most of
them grew up without a strong male presence in their lives. For some reason,
little girls really, really need men to love them so that they don't spend the
rest of their lives looking for that love in all the wrong places.
Off my soapbox.
PattyC4303
maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC (Maggie) writes:
I'm not sure I disagree with some of what you say above, Maggie, but...
I am trying to relate this back to what brought up your question. And having
trouble doing that. It was about poor Selina and her falling for this guy's
bull. I am assuming you are saying it's about her growing up without a father?
Or not definitively saying that, but theorizing that?
Your theory may be as good as mine, but I like mine better. Mine (for me) fits
more of what happens in life for women in many settings. Many a woman WITH a
loving father still seems to think she is not complete without a man. I think
the Prince Charming, our society makes women appear incomplete without men
theory is more applicable.
As a woman who lost a father at a young age, I happen to have many theories on
how THAT can screw up one's outlook on relationships. Just I see the way it
screws things up as different. As in, I think that usually ends up more in
making bad choices (expecting to be "left" so choosing those who will leave),
versus the deal I was referring to as to wanting, holding on to whomever shows
up.
PattyC
PattyC4303
writes:
>Even when she moved back to California from Pittsburgh PA,
>alone and not with her mother, she went to live with her mother's family in
>Salinas
>(100 miles away from Marin County), not with Elvin Bishop. He didn't even
>go
>to the memorial services for her last Saturday, he sent his brother-in-law,
>saying
> that he was too upset, having recently lost his mother and now this.
>Yet he's going to perform this Thursday out of state. Perhaps he was too
>distraught to attend the services, though, and I can understand that,
>not wanting to face the press, although it didn't get big coverage here, the
>story being replaced by the kidnapped child.
>
>I find his song "I fooled around and fell in love" so ironic now.
>
This is getting more interesting. They were in Pittsburgh?? I admit I have
not read the papers here for several days, (and threw all out for trash
collection tomorrow), but I have not heard a word on the radio that there was a
Pittsburgh connection.
As to the funeral thing. Hmmm. Dad didn't come because he had recently been
to another funeral? God. I really, really try not to "judge" as to how some
act in times of grief (like with the gravestone thing, which still baffles me
as meaning something about your feelings about a dead person if you don't get
one). BUT
This was his child. I have a thing with funerals, funeral homes. I say (to
myself), there is a "line," and I know instinctively when I must go to the
funeral or funeral home. Despite the fact I'd rather never go, I "feel" when
the line is crossed and that I must go. Well, geez, I don't think there is
much question that if it's your KID, you go. Despite how bad it is for you to
go. You go. Meaning, *I* can't understand his not showing up and sending his
brother.
I imagine dad never had much of a relationship with the girl. If he were
really sad, I would think he'd want to go and (dumb as it might sound) pay his
respects, honor his daughter.
Nonetheless, I don't buy the lack of dad made her necessarily dumb about guys.
I still think that might be simply about how our society makes women so think
they must have a guy to be worthwhile.
Maggie
pattyc said:
>I'm not sure I disagree with some of what you say above, Maggie, but...
>
>I am trying to relate this back to what brought up your question. And having
>trouble doing that. It was about poor Selina and her falling for this guy's
>bull. I am assuming you are saying it's about her growing up without a
>father?
> Or not definitively saying that, but theorizing that?
***Yes. And at the time I wrote it, I didn't even know if Selina had grown up
without a father, but I knew it was a good bet.
>
>Your theory may be as good as mine, but I like mine better. Mine (for me)
>fits
>more of what happens in life for women in many settings. Many a woman WITH
>a
>loving father still seems to think she is not complete without a man. I
>think
>the Prince Charming, our society makes women appear incomplete without men
>theory is more applicable.
***But isn't "society" the same for all of us (or pretty much the same)? Don't
we watch the same TV shows, see the same movies, go to the same public schools
(for the most part)? So what's the difference betweenwomen who have made good
choices, and women who have made lousy choices? I'm sure that there are lots
of things that have an impact, but "society" is one of those things that is
easily controlled for--it's pretty much the same for all of us. It *has* to be
something other than that. Again--look around at the women you're talking
about. I bet you'd find very, very few who grew up with the strong presence of
a good father in their lives.
>
>As a woman who lost a father at a young age, I happen to have many theories
>on
>how THAT can screw up one's outlook on relationships. Just I see the way
>it
>screws things up as different. As in, I think that usually ends up more
>in
>making bad choices (expecting to be "left" so choosing those who will leave),
>versus the deal I was referring to as to wanting, holding on to whomever
>shows
>up.
***Sounds like the same thing to me--bad choices, whether in picking the wrong
guy or staying with the wrong guy.
WWWoLadyA
PattyC:
>>It was about poor Selina and her falling for this guy's
>>bull. I am assuming you are saying it's about her growing up without a
>>father?
>> Or not definitively saying that, but theorizing that?
Maggie:
>***Yes. And at the time I wrote it, I didn't even know if Selina had grown
>up
>without a father, but I knew it was a good bet.
Patty:
>>Your theory may be as good as mine, but I like mine better. Mine (for me)
>>fits
>>more of what happens in life for women in many settings. Many a woman WITH
>>a
>>loving father still seems to think
>>loving father still seems to think she is not complete without a man. I
>>think
>>the Prince Charming, our society makes women appear incomplete without men
>>theory is more applicable.
Maggie:
>***But isn't "society" the same for all of us (or pretty much the same)?
>Don't
>we watch the same TV shows, see the same movies, go to the same public
>schools
>(for the most part)? So what's the difference betweenwomen who have made
>good
>choices, and women who have
>made lousy choices? I'm sure that there are lots
>of things that have an impact, but "society" is one of those things that
>is
>easily controlled for--it's pretty much the same for all of us. It *has* to
>be
>something other than that. Again--look around at the women you're talking
>about. I bet you'd find very, very few who grew up with the strong presence
>of
>a good father in their lives.
Thing is, if Selina had sisters raised just as she was, without the strong male
presence, I don't expect they would all be so affected. I do believe the
absence of a father is significant, but it makes sense too that brain chemistry
creates some predisposition for her kind of "neediness".
A.
Maggie
>Thing is, if Selina had sisters raised just as she was, without the strong
>male
>presence, I don't expect they would all be so affected. I do believe the
>absence of a father is significant, but it makes sense too that brain
chemistry
>creates some predisposition for her kind of "neediness".
***I agree, completely, that some people are just neurologically more
vulnerable to all kinds of influences than others. What might drive one person
over the edge will have absolutely no affect on someone else.
Patty
WWWoLadyA <wwwo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000815111949...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
A wrote:
: Thing is, if Selina had sisters raised just as she was, without the strong
male
: presence, I don't expect they would all be so affected. I do believe the
: absence of a father is significant, but it makes sense too that brain
chemistry
: creates some predisposition for her kind of "neediness".
I think a large part of Selina's problem was her unstable environment. I
would
wonder how many boyfriends that her mother had over the years. They ended
up in PA because her mother followed a truckdriver boyfriend there. I
believe
she had had her newest boyfriend less than a year. I bet Selina didn't know
what a normal relationship was. I must admit I feel very very sorry what
happened
to her.