Sund/Pelosso News 4-10-99
JoAnn
This is from4/2/99 but it is interesting reading. They are gearing up
for a big trial.
<http://headlines.uniondemocrat.com/cgi-bin/news/story.pl?story=202+19990402+1002>
State aid sought for rising costs of murder case
By ROBERT DORROH
The Union Democrat -With the likelihood of a multi-million-dollar court
trial looming over the murders of three Yosemite sightseers, Tuolumne
County may hire a lobbyist and seek special legislation to recover a
large chunk of its costs from the state. The county's cost to
investigate and eventually prosecute the case will escalate at a rapid
rate, Brent Wallace, county administrator, said. Trial costs will
include paying prosecutors, public defenders, and forensic, psychology
and other expert witnesses.
On April 13, Wallace said, he will ask Tuolumne County supervisors to
spend up to $6,000 this fiscal year to hire a lobbyist to coordinate the
county's recovery-cost efforts at the state level.
Also, Wallace has talked with State Sen. Dick Monteith, R-Modesto, and
will talk with Assemblyman George House, R-Hughson, about possible
special legislation to get state reimbursement for county costs. The
county is also responsible for incarceration and court costs if a change
of venue is granted and the trial is held outside the county.
Â
JoAnnÂ
 Â
JoAnn
From The Lodi News-Sentinel
<http://headlines.lodinews.com/cgi-bin/news/story.pl?story=210+19990403+1000>
"...the provisions of a new state law -- enacted Jan. 1... allows
prosecutors to consolidate multiple county murder charges against a
defendant in the same courtroom, said the author of the law, Sen.
Richard Rainey, a Walnut Creek Republican "In the past, a person charged
with murder in two or more counties would have to be tried in each
county," Rainey said. "That meant each county had to bear the expense of
bringing the person to trial. Plus the witnesses and family members of
victims would have to re-live the trials two, three or even four times
under the old law."
"SB 469, dubbed the "Serial Killer -- Single Trial" bill passed through
the 1997-98 legislative session and was designed to save money and time
by allowing multiple county murder cases to be prosecuted in one
jurisdiction."
"In the Santa Cruz case against David Carpenter, dubbed the Trailside
Killer, many witnesses had to testify six times because of where the
victims were found..."
Â
JoAnn
JoAnn
Excerpts from the San Jose Mercury News:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Task force is focusing on felons in Modesto (4/10/1999)
<http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/local/docs/jewelry10x.htm>
Saturday, April 10, 1999,
MODESTO -- The task force investigating the slayings of three Yosemite
sightseers has been asking associates of two ex-convicts about **jewelry
and credit cards** that may have belonged to Eureka resident Carole
Sund, her 15-year-old daughter or a 16-year-old family friend.
Members of an FBI-led task force have been asking about **jewelry
acquired by several women**, according to neighbors and associates of
people targeted in the case, including a 36-year-old Modesto woman who
was called to testify in handcuffs this week before a federal grand jury
that is assisting with the investigation.
But one official said authorities are ``investigating the possibility
that property belonging to the victims may still be recovered.´´
But authorities seem to be concentrating much of their effort on the
area around Modesto, where part of Carole Sund's wallet and some of her
credit cards were found on a roadside a few days after her Feb. 15
disappearance.
The task force has questioned, among others, friends and relatives of
two half-brothers with histories of methamphetamine use and other more
violent crimes.
One of their associates, the woman called before the grand jury
Wednesday, is a **36-year-old grandmother** who was arrested March 13
after a bystander came across her 1-year-old grandson toddling
unattended near a busy Modesto street corner. Officers found the woman
asleep inside her apartment nearby, where they also found small amounts
of methamphetamine. She has pleaded guilty to felony charges of child
endangerment and narcotics possession.
Neighbors in the neatly landscaped, north Modesto apartment complex say
they recognized the older of the two half-brothers -- a 42-year-old man
who has lived in both the area around Long Barn and in Modesto -- as
someone who has visited the woman's apartment several times over the
past year.
The woman's **61-year-old mother** said Friday that she doesn't believe
her daughter had anything to do with the slayings.´´But several
neighbors said the apartment draws a steady flow of unsavory visitors.
Both women previously lived in a farmhouse on the edge of town, where
neighbors said that random gunfire and visits from police were a common
occurrence. Court records confirm that police raided the house several
times over the last decade, arresting numerous inhabitants -- including
the 61-year-old mother -- and seizing a variety of drugs, weapons and
stolen property.
On at least two visits to the farmhouse, records show, police also
arrested the younger of the two half-brothers, once in a bedroom with an
illegal sawed-off shotgun nearby.Now 32 years old, the man has a record
of convictions that include possession of drugs and illegal weapons, as
well as a 1986 conviction for a pair of chilling assaults on two young
women.
In that case, a 17-year-old girl told police the man drove her to an
isolated spot near the banks of the Tuolumne River, in Stanislaus
County, where she said she agreed to have sex because she was afraid of
him. Separately, another woman told police that the man drove her to the
same area and, when she refused to walk closer to the river with him,
she said he choked her and threatened her with a shotgun.
The woman was able to escape when a passerby came along and interrupted
their struggle, authorities reported.
Under terms of a plea bargain, the man later pleaded guilty to
**unlawful sexual intercourse with the minor** and false imprisonment of
the other woman. Prosecutors dismissed charges of rape, brandishing a
firearm and battery.
Some of the questions concern items of **jewelry that might be linked to
the three victims,** according to a woman who knows the older brother
and neighbors of the 36-year-old woman who was called before the grand
jury last week.
Meanwhile, investigators were continuing to pursue the case Friday,
**delivering more grand jury subpoenas to additional witnesses who were
not identified.**
JoAnn
JoAnn
<http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/STATE/t000032189.1.html>
Saturday, April 10, 1999
A Mother and Daughter Who Made a Difference
"EUREKA--Every month, the blurred black-and-white photos and sad
biographies of more than 150 children in foster care land on Sherill
Chand's desk at Adoption Horizons. Most of these children, Chand knows
from trying, have no chance of being adopted." Â Â Â Â Â
"But one baby, an African American boy dressed in a sweater with tiny
hearts across the chest,caught her eye one day in 1989."I took that
picture and put it in my drawer and I said, 'This one I'm going to find
a home for,' " Chand recalls. She knew just whom to call: Carole Sund."
    Â
"After their second adoption of a mixed-race baby two years earlier,
Carole and Jens Sund had told Chand that their family was complete.
Still, Chand didn't hesitate. "I called her and said, 'Are you sitting
down?' " Chand said, laughing. "It didn't take much." Soon, Jimmy was
joining the family."
"By then, the couple's decision to adopt--a natural move for **Carole,
who had grown up with two adopted siblings**--had turned into a
passionate commitment to saving abused children, one by one."
"She and Jens were comfortable, Bish says, working for the family real
estate business after years spent establishing their independence by
building up their own successful painting firm." Â Â Â Â Â
JoAnnÂ
JoAnn
<http://www.mercedsun-star.com/_archives/mar3099/foothill.html>
Foothill communities are anxious and angry
By Bill Hatch
Sun-Star Staff Writer
SONORA – "There's a tension convention in Tuolumne County as a massive
police dragnet scoops up everyone who has outstanding warrants against
them or is in violation of their parole. Rumor has it that the cops are
trying to shake out information on the Sund/Pelosso case. All was not
well in the county's underworld Monday evening."
"People are being busted for parole violations and old warrants all day
long around here," said a customer at Dillon's... "A guy from Long Barn
who comes in here,"..."told us that the FBI and the sheriff went
door-to-door up there (after the car was found nearby) taking names,
running them through their computers and taking anyone in with any kind
of infraction against them. They'd talk to them, book them and release
them,"
"...a bartender at Dillon's had been "grilled by the FBI." Cindy at
Dillon's, confirmed the report.There were rumors that the FBI and the
Tuolumne County Sheriff's Department had cordoned off a section of
Chicken Ranch near the Miwok Tribal Council's Casino between Jamestown
and Sonora. Nick said he'd heard "someone who drinks at Dillon's hangs
out at the Chicken Ranch Casino."
JoAnn
JoAnn
3/27/99
<http://www.mercedsun-star.com/_archives/mar2799/fbi.html>
"Tuolumne County sheriffs deputies have been arresting people with
outstanding warrants or in violation of parole... They also have been
questioning area parolees and anyone new in town."
"At the Servente Saloon in Sonora, Jeff, who declined to give his last
name, said, "There are no panhandlers in Sonora no more after this
started. The street people have disappeared." Jeff, who walked 5 miles
along the Seirra Railroad tracks noticed, "All the hobos are gone too.
"There are usually several semi-permanent camps of transisents in that
vicinity," he said."
JoAnn
kkramer
Larwick's denials last night. He denied doing the killing. He did not deny
doing the kidnap, carjack, rape, et al. So, that's no denial. It is a
negative pregnant. What bothers me is how it came about that he was at CL
being from Modesto and all.... It could be the heavy was at CL and gave him
a call. But, I am leaving SS out of it except Strange had "the knowledge".
It is cominig back to an earlier target. Creepy. And as to those poor dumb
SOBs, Strange and Stephens, they have my most sincere apology. I have been
partially vindicated by the SJ Mercury News. My source spoke of credit
card(s) and rings but was weak on details. Well! So, is the FBI. It's
taken a grand jury to sort it out. I won't raise my source's rent :)
JoAnn wrote in message <23653-37...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net>...
Oh Keith, where are you? How did you know these things?
Excerpts from the San Jose Mercury News:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Task force is focusing on felons in Modesto (4/10/1999)
<http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/local/docs/jewelry10x.htm>
Saturday, April 10, 1999,
MODESTO -- The task force investigating the slayings of three Yosemite
sightseers has been asking associates of two ex-convicts about **jewelry
and credit cards** that may have belonged to Eureka resident Carole
Sund, her 15-year-old daughter or a 16-year-old family friend.
Members of an FBI-led task force have been asking about **jewelry
acquired by several women**, according to neighbors and associates of
people targeted in the case, including a 36-year-old Modesto woman who
was called to testify in handcuffs this week before a federal grand jury
that is assisting with the investigation.
But one official said authorities are ``investigating the possibility
that property belonging to the victims may still be recovered.创
But authorities seem to be concentrating much of their effort on the
area around Modesto, where part of Carole Sund's wallet and some of her
credit cards were found on a roadside a few days after her Feb. 15
disappearance.
The task force has questioned, among others, friends and relatives of
two half-brothers with histories of methamphetamine use and other more
violent crimes.
One of their associates, the woman called before the grand jury
Wednesday, is a **36-year-old grandmother**
^^^ A real meth addict has her first children between 13 and 16 so Grandma
it is! By 30, her strays have brought in a few more...
who was arrested March 13
after a bystander came across her 1-year-old grandson toddling
unattended near a busy Modesto street corner. Officers found the woman
asleep inside her apartment nearby, where they also found small amounts
of methamphetamine. She has pleaded guilty to felony charges of child
endangerment and narcotics possession.
Neighbors in the neatly landscaped, north Modesto apartment complex say
they recognized the older of the two half-brothers -- a 42-year-old man
who has lived in both the area around Long Barn and in Modesto -- as
someone who has visited the woman's apartment several times over the
past year.
The woman's **61-year-old mother**
^^^This is who we know because my source is 63 and has known Cathy Clay
since birth. I have known these people for 20 yr.
said Friday that she doesn't believe
her daughter had anything to do with the slayings.创But several
neighbors said the apartment draws a steady flow of unsavory visitors.
^^^ "She knows plenty and could easily have been involved...."
Both women previously lived in a farmhouse on the edge of town, where
neighbors said that random gunfire and visits from police were a common
occurrence. Court records confirm that police raided the house several
times over the last decade, arresting numerous inhabitants -- including
the 61-year-old mother -- and seizing a variety of drugs, weapons and
stolen property.
On at least two visits to the farmhouse, records show, police also
arrested the younger of the two half-brothers, once in a bedroom with an
illegal sawed-off shotgun nearby.Now 32 years old, the man has a record
of convictions that include possession of drugs and illegal weapons, as
well as a 1986 conviction for a pair of chilling assaults on two young
women.
In that case, a 17-year-old girl told police the man drove her to an
isolated spot near the banks of the Tuolumne River, in Stanislaus
County, where she said she agreed to have sex because she was afraid of
him. Separately, another woman told police that the man drove her to the
same area and, when she refused to walk closer to the river with him,
^^^ Someone's radar was working.
she said he choked her and threatened her with a shotgun.
The woman was able to escape when a passerby came along and interrupted
their struggle, authorities reported.
Under terms of a plea bargain, the man later pleaded guilty to
**unlawful sexual intercourse with the minor** and false imprisonment of
the other woman. Prosecutors dismissed charges of rape, brandishing a
firearm and battery.
Some of the questions concern items of **jewelry that might be linked to
the three victims,** according to a woman who knows the older brother
and neighbors of the 36-year-old woman who was called before the grand
jury last week.
Meanwhile, investigators were continuing to pursue the case Friday,
**delivering more grand jury subpoenas to additional witnesses who were
not identified.**
^^^ Subpenas used to be issued by the Court Clerk only. Unfortunately, it
has changed and the representing office can do it... At least in state
matters. Who issues federal subpenas??
JoAnn
kkramer
JoAnn wrote in message <8928-370...@newsd-111.bryant.webtv.net>...
<http://www.mercedsun-star.com/_archives/mar3099/foothill.html>
^^^ What's this about? When? FBI was there Mar 23... since then?
kkramer
Keith
JoAnn wrote in message <20445-370...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net>...
Kris Baker
>From The Union Democrat Online:
>This is from4/2/99 but it is interesting reading. They are gearing up
>for a big trial.
><http://headlines.uniondemocrat.com/cgi-bin/news/story.pl?
story=3D202+1999=
>0402+1002>
>State aid sought for rising costs of murder case
>By ROBERT DORROH
>The Union Democrat -With the likelihood of a multi-million-dollar court
>trial looming over the murders of three Yosemite sightseers, Tuolumne
>County may hire a lobbyist and seek special legislation to recover a
>large chunk of its costs from the state. The county's cost to
>investigate and eventually prosecute the case will escalate at a rapid
>rate, Brent Wallace, county administrator, said. Trial costs will
>include paying prosecutors, public defenders, and forensic, psychology
>and other expert witnesses.
Multi-million dollar trial? Why? If this crime encompasses
only the actions of a bunch of ex-cons, why are millions of
dollars needed? Are they really expecting a bunch of
public defenders to put up that much resistance on the
"air-tight case" the FBI says they want to develop?
Kris
Sund/Pelosso website at:
<http://pages.prodigy.com/GMVY23A/sundtime.htm>
kkramer
something about this having the potential of becoming much bigger. Perhaps
as it relates to Stephens? Or, as it spirals out to include other victims?
Keith
Kris Baker wrote in message
<7eo7eo$2r7c$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
kkramer
trying to use Carole's credit card. She also had Carole's rings."
Therefore, it had to be prior to Larwick's arrest on Mar 16.
Keith
JoAnn wrote in message <23653-37...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net>...
<http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/local/docs/jewelry10x.htm>
Saturday, April 10, 1999,
Wednesday, is a **36-year-old grandmother** who was arrested March 13
after a bystander came across her 1-year-old grandson toddling
unattended near a busy Modesto street corner. Officers found the woman
asleep inside her apartment nearby, where they also found small amounts
of methamphetamine. She has pleaded guilty to felony charges of child
endangerment and narcotics possession.
Neighbors in the neatly landscaped, north Modesto apartment complex say
they recognized the older of the two half-brothers -- a 42-year-old man
who has lived in both the area around Long Barn and in Modesto -- as
someone who has visited the woman's apartment several times over the
past year.
The woman's **61-year-old mother** said Friday that she doesn't believe
her daughter had anything to do with the slayings.创But several
neighbors said the apartment draws a steady flow of unsavory visitors.
Both women previously lived in a farmhouse on the edge of town, where
neighbors said that random gunfire and visits from police were a common
occurrence. Court records confirm that police raided the house several
times over the last decade, arresting numerous inhabitants -- including
the 61-year-old mother -- and seizing a variety of drugs, weapons and
stolen property.
On at least two visits to the farmhouse, records show, police also
arrested the younger of the two half-brothers, once in a bedroom with an
illegal sawed-off shotgun nearby.Now 32 years old, the man has a record
of convictions that include possession of drugs and illegal weapons, as
well as a 1986 conviction for a pair of chilling assaults on two young
women.
In that case, a 17-year-old girl told police the man drove her to an
isolated spot near the banks of the Tuolumne River, in Stanislaus
County, where she said she agreed to have sex because she was afraid of
him. Separately, another woman told police that the man drove her to the
same area and, when she refused to walk closer to the river with him,
she said he choked her and threatened her with a shotgun.
The woman was able to escape when a passerby came along and interrupted
their struggle, authorities reported.
Under terms of a plea bargain, the man later pleaded guilty to
**unlawful sexual intercourse with the minor** and false imprisonment of
the other woman. Prosecutors dismissed charges of rape, brandishing a
firearm and battery.
Some of the questions concern items of **jewelry that might be linked to
the three victims,** according to a woman who knows the older brother
and neighbors of the 36-year-old woman who was called before the grand
jury last week.
Meanwhile, investigators were continuing to pursue the case Friday,
**delivering more grand jury subpoenas to additional witnesses who were
not identified.**
JoAnn
Kris Baker
>I spoke with her today and she said, "I am sure Cathy Clay was caught
by
>trying to use Carole's credit card. She also had Carole's rings."
>Therefore, it had to be prior to Larwick's arrest on Mar 16.
>Keith
>JoAnn wrote in message <23653-37...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net>...
>Oh Keith, where are you? How did you know these things?
>Excerpts from the San Jose Mercury News:
><http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/local/docs/jewelry10x.htm>
>
>Saturday, April 10, 1999,
>MODESTO -- The task force investigating the slayings of three Yosemite
>sightseers has been asking associates of two ex-convicts about
**jewelry
>and credit cards** that may have belonged to Eureka resident Carole
>Sund, her 15-year-old daughter or a 16-year-old family friend.
>Members of an FBI-led task force have been asking about **jewelry
>acquired by several women**, according to neighbors and associates of
>people targeted in the case, including a 36-year-old Modesto woman who
>was called to testify in handcuffs this week before a federal grand
jury
>that is assisting with the investigation.
>But one official said authorities are ``investigating the possibility
>that property belonging to the victims may still be recovered.创
I've re-read this several times, and think it could be also
interpreted that the jewelry is *missing.* Possibility that
the inquiries are like "Can you describe jewelry she's worn
recently?" in hope that it "...may still be recovered."
BUT.....this does seem to be confirmation that jewelry the
victims were known to be wearing, is/was missing.
Maggie8097
>"kkramer" <kkr...@2xtreme.net> wrote:
>
>>I spoke with her today and she said, "I am sure Cathy Clay was caught
>by
>>trying to use Carole's credit card. She also had Carole's rings."
>>Therefore, it had to be prior to Larwick's arrest on Mar 16.
>>Keith
>
>>JoAnn wrote in message <23653-37...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net>...
>>Oh Keith, where are you? How did you know these things?
>>Excerpts from the San Jose Mercury News:
>><http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/local/docs/jewelry10x.htm>
>>
>>Saturday, April 10, 1999,
>
>>MODESTO -- The task force investigating the slayings of three Yosemite
>>sightseers has been asking associates of two ex-convicts about
>**jewelry
>>and credit cards** that may have belonged to Eureka resident Carole
>>Sund, her 15-year-old daughter or a 16-year-old family friend.
>
>>Members of an FBI-led task force have been asking about **jewelry
>>acquired by several women**, according to neighbors and associates of
>>people targeted in the case, including a 36-year-old Modesto woman who
>>was called to testify in handcuffs this week before a federal grand
>jury
>>that is assisting with the investigation.
>
>>But one official said authorities are ``investigating the possibility
>>that property belonging to the victims may still be recovered.创
>
> I've re-read this several times, and think it could be also
> interpreted that the jewelry is *missing.* Possibility that
> the inquiries are like "Can you describe jewelry she's worn
> recently?" in hope that it "...may still be recovered."
>
> BUT.....this does seem to be confirmation that jewelry the
> victims were known to be wearing, is/was missing.
***I agree with you completely, Kris. The jewelry is apparently missing and
there may be rumors that Cathy Clay and/or another woman was wearing some new
jewelry near the time of the disappearances, but the FBI has (IMO) clearly not
found that jewelry.
My guess is that none of the women was wearing or carried with her much
jewelry--probably a wedding band (I could see Carole not even having a diamond
engagement ring), a few watches and maybe a gold chain or two is all we're
talking about. (Can anyone see anything else on those pictures?--I couldn't
find a link to them on your site, Kris. I suspect they're probably there, but
I missed it.).
In any case, I seriously doubt that the jewelry was very distinctive or even
very valuable. I can't see any of them taking expensive jewelry to
Yosemite--and I doubt that Silvina even brought anything valuable with her from
Argentina. Not exactly the type stuff to be flashing around to your friends,
is my guess.
Anyway, this latest story is more confirmation to me that the FBI doesn't have
much of anything. My guess--the real murder(s) are feeling pretty smug about
now.
Maggie
"You don't really understand human nature unless you know why a child on a
merry-go-round will wave at his parents every time around--and why his parents
will always wave back."--William D. Tammeus
kkramer
Kris Baker wrote in message <7eoatm$h18$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>"kkramer" <kkr...@2xtreme.net> wrote:
>
>>I spoke with her today and she said, "I am sure Cathy Clay was caught
>by
>>trying to use Carole's credit card. She also had Carole's rings."
>>Therefore, it had to be prior to Larwick's arrest on Mar 16.
>>Keith
>
>>JoAnn wrote in message <23653-37...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net>...
>>Oh Keith, where are you? How did you know these things?
>>Excerpts from the San Jose Mercury News:
>><http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/local/docs/jewelry10x.htm>
>>
>>Saturday, April 10, 1999,
>
>>MODESTO -- The task force investigating the slayings of three Yosemite
>>sightseers has been asking associates of two ex-convicts about
>**jewelry
>>and credit cards** that may have belonged to Eureka resident Carole
>>Sund, her 15-year-old daughter or a 16-year-old family friend.
>
>>Members of an FBI-led task force have been asking about **jewelry
>>acquired by several women**, according to neighbors and associates of
>>people targeted in the case, including a 36-year-old Modesto woman who
>>was called to testify in handcuffs this week before a federal grand
>jury
>>that is assisting with the investigation.
>
>>But one official said authorities are ``investigating the possibility
>>that property belonging to the victims may still be recovered.创
^^^ Subterfuge: they are not interested in recovering the jewelry. They
are interested in discovering who, why, and how they got possession of the
jewelry. FBI doublespeak. I'm still on North Fork California. I have some
calls to make:)
Keith
> I've re-read this several times, and think it could be also
> interpreted that the jewelry is *missing.* Possibility that
> the inquiries are like "Can you describe jewelry she's worn
> recently?" in hope that it "...may still be recovered."
>
> BUT.....this does seem to be confirmation that jewelry the
> victims were known to be wearing, is/was missing.
>
>
Kris Baker
jdk...@prodigy.com (Kris Baker) wrote:
>>>JoAnn wrote:
>>><http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/local/docs/jewelry10x.htm>
Here's the important sentences:
>>>has been asking associates of two ex-convicts about jewelry
>>>and credit cards that may have belonged to (the victims.)
"....may have belonged...." -- if it's been recovered, it does
belong (not "may have."
>>>have been asking about jewelry acquired by several women,
Not shown photos?
>>>But one official said authorities are ``investigating the possibility
>>>that property belonging to the victims may still be recovered.创
>>
>Kris said:
>> I've re-read this several times, and think it could be also
>> interpreted that the jewelry is *missing.* Possibility that
>> the inquiries are like "Can you describe jewelry she's worn
>> recently?" in hope that it "...may still be recovered."
>> BUT.....this does seem to be confirmation that jewelry the
>> victims were known to be wearing, is/was missing.
>***I agree with you completely, Kris. The jewelry is apparently
>missing and there may be rumors that Cathy Clay and/or another
>woman was wearing some new jewelry near the time of the
>disappearances, but the FBI has (IMO) clearly not found that
>jewelry.
Or....the jewelry is missing, and they are checking to see *if*
anyone saw any of the "linked" women/suspects wearing it.
>My guess is that none of the women was wearing or carried with
>her much jewelry--probably a wedding band (I could see Carole
>not even having a diamond engagement ring), a few watches
>and maybe a gold chain or two is all we're talking about. (Can
>anyone see anything else on those pictures?--I couldn't find a
>link to them on your site, Kris. I suspect they're probably there,
>but I missed it.).
They're on the Fresno Bee and Modesto Bee websites, and
not in a format that I can link directly to. Due to copyright
infringement problems, I can't download them and put them
on my site. Fresno Bee is particularly "picky" about that,
which I sadly learned earlier this week (but....I have to make
it clear that they're in the right, legally and I've complied.)
I'll see what I can do, photo-wise, because I'm always
looking at the darned things - and we *do* need easier
linkage to them.
I've looked at them before and just re-looked at the 3 ModBee
photos - the photos aren't closeups, so I can't tell. Doesn't
look to me like they're wearing *any* jewelry. But, I can't
imagine Carole not wearing a watch.
>In any case, I seriously doubt that the jewelry was very distinctive
>or even very valuable. I can't see any of them taking expensive
>jewelry to Yosemite--and I doubt that Silvina even brought
>anything valuable with her from Argentina. Not exactly the
>type stuff to be flashing around to your friends, is my guess.
About the only "distinctive" piece of normally-worn jewelry
is a watch - but that's the easiest thing to identify, because
the family can report the brand and style. Investigators
can locate identical ones (or photos) and show during the
interviews.
>Anyway, this latest story is more confirmation to me that the FBI
>doesn't have much of anything. My guess--the real murder(s) are
>feeling pretty smug about now.
>Maggie
I don't share *those* particular feelings; I think they'd not
have convened the GJ if they thought they'd not get info
from those being subpoenaed.
JoAnn
Saturday, April 10, 1999,
"Meanwhile, investigators were continuing to pursue the case Friday,
**delivering more grand jury subpoenas to additional witnesses who were
not identified.**"
~~~Any ideas or leaks as to the identity of next week's GJ witnesses?
What about the reasoning of Dan Caplis this am on the radio concerning
why the Ramsey's haven't been seen at the GJ in Boulder? He says that
they wouldn't be called before the GJ if they are going to be indicted,
because that could show the DA's evidence to them. Is it significant who
is not broke before the Fresno GJ? Or all the rules different with the
Ramsey case.
JoAnn
kkramer
rings at the time she tried to use Carole's credit cards resulting in her
arrest... <assuming they went to her house after the attempted use was
reported at which time they hit her with the various misc charges to place
her under arrest>
What will the federal prosecutor ask Clay?
How did you get that credit card?
Where did you get those rings?
What will her answers be?
Then, what?
Keith
Kris Baker wrote in message <7eof42$j2g$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Kris Baker
>Go a little further on the jewelry. Pretend Cathy Clay was wearing
>Carole's rings at the time she tried to use Carole's credit cards
>resulting in her arrest... <assuming they went to her house after
>the attempted use was reported at which time they hit her with
>the various misc charges to place her under arrest>
>What will the federal prosecutor ask Clay?
>How did you get that credit card?
>Where did you get those rings?
>What will her answers be?
>Then, what?
>Keith
I'm having trouble with the jewelry, because I'm not yet
convinced she had it. I'm still in the "it's not been found"
camp (and I realize that the FBI could be obfuscating.)
If Clay's on video at an ATM attempting to use one of
Carole's cards, what made the task force go to her
house? (Those ATM videos aren't very good, and
unless she made sure a license plate number showed
on the video, they may not have immediately
recognized her.)
IF Clay's attached to this mess, I think she *was*
actually arrested for the child endangerment and
drugs - then either talked later or was recognized
as the woman in the ATM video.
But....it doesn't seem that she's fully spilled any beans,
does it? If she'd done so, things would be further
ahead than they are. If she's a reluctant witness,
why?
kkramer
> convinced she had it. I'm still in the "it's not been found"
> camp (and I realize that the FBI could be obfuscating.)
^^^ Source says yes.
> If Clay's on video at an ATM attempting to use one of
> Carole's cards, what made the task force go to her
> house? (Those ATM videos aren't very good, and
> unless she made sure a license plate number showed
> on the video, they may not have immediately
> recognized her.)
^^^ Danger. Make no moves. Call manager. Manager handles 911 call.
> IF Clay's attached to this mess, I think she *was*
> actually arrested for the child endangerment and
> drugs - then either talked later or was recognized
> as the woman in the ATM video.
^^^ Source says credit cards precipitated arrest.
>
> But....it doesn't seem that she's fully spilled any beans,
> does it? If she'd done so, things would be further
> ahead than they are. If she's a reluctant witness,
> why?
^^^ She is not going to want to answer the questions, is she? She'll lie
under oath and claim the "Pete from Marysville" defense. It's a classic.
Taught in Crime 101. On the other hand, if she is not involved, she will
say exactly where she got the items. Since she has been subpenaed, I will
assume she doesn't want to say, that she is involved, and that it will play
out. Oh, Modesto is actually a small town. Clay no doubt goes to the same
convenience store and is known. Not hard to track down. She is on felony
parole, too. Modesto is a very small place.
Keith
JBrown6000
<<Go a little further on the jewelry. Pretend Cathy Clay was wearing Carole's
rings at the time she tried to use Carole's credit cards resulting in her
arrest... <assuming they went to her house after the attempted use was
reported at which time they hit her with the various misc charges to place
her under arrest>
What will the federal prosecutor ask Clay?
How did you get that credit card?
Where did you get those rings?
What will her answers be?
Then, what?
**I keep searching Kris's timeline trying to find something about this jewelry.
Is this speculation on your part, Keith? Or have they really found some of
the trio's belongings in someone's possession?
jb
kkramer
When police followed up at her home, she was arrested for misc charges
(child endangerment etc). She had Carole's rings, supposedly. It was
mentioned in SJ Mercury News today. I was told initially that she tried to
use the cc after Larwick's arrest. Today, I was told the cc got her
arrested which would be Mar 13 before Larwick's arrest. So, keep an open
mind. Don't be surprised one way or the other. I still figure she would
have talked had she nothing to hide. Being subpenaed makes me think she had
something to hide and was uncooperative. Regardless, if they lie under oath
at the GJ, it can be used to impeach any proferred testimony at the time of
trial or any other proceeding under oath.
Keith
JBrown6000 wrote in message <19990410222017...@ng150.aol.com>...
Maggie8097
>><<Go a little further on the jewelry. Pretend Cathy Clay was wearing
>Carole's
>>rings at the time she tried to use Carole's credit cards resulting in her
>>arrest... <assuming they went to her house after the attempted use was
>>reported at which time they hit her with the various misc charges to place
>>her under arrest>
>>
>>What will the federal prosecutor ask Clay?
>>
>>How did you get that credit card?
>>
>>Where did you get those rings?
>>
>>What will her answers be?
>>
>>Then, what?
>>
>>**I keep searching Kris's timeline trying to find something about this
>jewelry.
>> Is this speculation on your part, Keith? Or have they really found some
>of
>>the trio's belongings in someone's possession?
keith said:
>Unconfirmed source in Modesto. Cathy Clay tried to use the credit card.
>When police followed up at her home, she was arrested for misc charges
>(child endangerment etc). She had Carole's rings, supposedly. It was
>mentioned in SJ Mercury News today.
***Ahem. There's nothing in the story about Cathy Clay trying to use a credit
card of anyone's. Clay was arrested for child endangerment after her
1-year-old grandson was found toddling near a busy intersection--she was asleep
at home at the time. There's nothing about rings in the article. What *was*
mentioned is that some women, who were already in jail for other crimes, are
being questioned about jewelry, but it is clear from the article that the FBI
has not recovered any jewelry from any person other than the Sund/Pelossos.
Barney Fife, here, just has an overactive imagination.
glas
| Go a little further on the jewelry. Pretend Cathy Clay was wearing
Carole's
| rings at the time she tried to use Carole's credit cards resulting in her
| arrest... <assuming they went to her house after the attempted use was
| reported at which time they hit her with the various misc charges to place
| her under arrest>
|
| What will the federal prosecutor ask Clay?
|
| How did you get that credit card?
|
| Where did you get those rings?
|
| What will her answers be?
If these events prove true, and assuming Larwick *was* involved in the
murders and that is why he ran from the cops, it is reasonable to consider
that the wallet, credit cards and perhaps jewelry were stashed in his
personal possessions and taken by one of his acquaintances that decided to
go through his things after his arrest. Since his character is less than
stellar, his friends and associates most likely are low-lifes as well and
not beyond going through the possessions of a man that they would figure was
probably going back to prison anyway and helping themselves to any items of
value.
glas
Andy
>If these events prove true, and assuming Larwick *was* involved in the
>murders and that is why he ran from the cops, it is reasonable to consider
>that the wallet, credit cards and perhaps jewelry were stashed in his
>personal possessions and taken by one of his acquaintances that decided to
>go through his things after his arrest.
This makes some sense--*but* we must take into account the fact that
Clay appears (from what I understand) to have been arrested *before*
Larwick. Of course, it remains possible--even probable--that one or
more of Larwick's "friends" (Clay herself, for instance) took items
from Larwick's secret stash during the period leading up to Larwick's
arrest. Perhaps this is how Larwick ended up being exposed. (If he
was indeed running a drug operation, there would almost certainly be
at least one or two people who knew where he liked to hide things.)
>Since his character is less than stellar, his friends and associates most
>likely are low-lifes as well and not beyond going through the possessions
>of a man that they would figure was probably going back to prison anyway
>and helping themselves to any items of value.
It is possible that the police did not immediately find their way to
Larwick's secret stash--and it is therefore also possible that some of
Larwick's "friends and associates" made off with certain incriminating
items after--as well as before--Larwick's arrest. Until we have more
information, all that we can do is speculate.
But, as I have indicated elsewhere, I see nothing wrong with
speculation. I think speculation is especially valuable in a case
like this: a case in which the police have given out only a limited
amount of information, much of which is either confusing or
contradictory.
--Andy
Buttrfld8
>Anyway, this latest story is more confirmation to me that the FBI
>doesn't have much of anything. My guess--the real murder(s) are
>feeling pretty smug about now.
>Maggie
> I don't share *those* particular feelings; I think they'd not
have convened the GJ if they thought they'd not get info
from those being subpoenaed.
>Kris
That they think they will get info from those subpoenaed does not
confirm that they think *those* same are the *very*, or the only, ones behind
this. Could they hope to get *those ones* by getting to these?
Moi
Maggie8097
>If these events prove true, and assuming Larwick *was* involved in the
>murders and that is why he ran from the cops, it is reasonable to consider
>that the wallet, credit cards and perhaps jewelry were stashed in his
>personal possessions and taken by one of his acquaintances that decided
>to
>go through his things after his arrest.
***The wallet and credit cards were found in Modesto on Feb. 19. Larwick
wasn't arrested until Mar. 16.
kkramer
Keith
glas wrote in message ...
>kkramer kindly posted in a.t-c ...
>| Go a little further on the jewelry. Pretend Cathy Clay was wearing
>Carole's
>| rings at the time she tried to use Carole's credit cards resulting in her
>| arrest... <assuming they went to her house after the attempted use was
>| reported at which time they hit her with the various misc charges to
place
>| her under arrest>
>|
>| What will the federal prosecutor ask Clay?
>|
>| How did you get that credit card?
>|
>| Where did you get those rings?
>|
>| What will her answers be?
>
>
>If these events prove true, and assuming Larwick *was* involved in the
>murders and that is why he ran from the cops, it is reasonable to consider
>that the wallet, credit cards and perhaps jewelry were stashed in his
>personal possessions and taken by one of his acquaintances that decided to
>go through his things after his arrest. Since his character is less than
>stellar, his friends and associates most likely are low-lifes as well and
>not beyond going through the possessions of a man that they would figure
was
>probably going back to prison anyway and helping themselves to any items of
>value.
>
>glas
>
>
>
>
kkramer
Andy wrote in message <37283744....@news.whitman.edu>...
>>murders and that is why he ran from the cops, it is reasonable to consider
>>that the wallet, credit cards and perhaps jewelry were stashed in his
>>personal possessions and taken by one of his acquaintances that decided to
>>go through his things after his arrest.
>
>Clay appears (from what I understand) to have been arrested *before*
>Larwick. Of course, it remains possible--even probable--that one or
>more of Larwick's "friends" (Clay herself, for instance) took items
>from Larwick's secret stash during the period leading up to Larwick's
>arrest. Perhaps this is how Larwick ended up being exposed. (If he
>was indeed running a drug operation, there would almost certainly be
>at least one or two people who knew where he liked to hide things.)
^^^ My hunch is she wouldn't steal from him. Would you?
>>Since his character is less than stellar, his friends and associates most
>>likely are low-lifes as well and not beyond going through the possessions
>>of a man that they would figure was probably going back to prison anyway
>>and helping themselves to any items of value.
>
>It is possible that the police did not immediately find their way to
>Larwick's secret stash--and it is therefore also possible that some of
>Larwick's "friends and associates" made off with certain incriminating
>items after--as well as before--Larwick's arrest. Until we have more
>information, all that we can do is speculate.
^^^ I have been fighting against including the women but my theory remains
Larwick, Dykes and one or two women... Cedar Lodge? Roamers... Just
speculation...
>But, as I have indicated elsewhere, I see nothing wrong with
>speculation. I think speculation is especially valuable in a case
>like this: a case in which the police have given out only a limited
>amount of information, much of which is either confusing or
>contradictory.
^^^ This is how it is done. Try on a theory, switch the facts around, and
voila you have a criminologist exam question... Very good mental exercise.
I agree!
Keith :)
>--Andy
kkramer
Maggie8097 wrote in message
<19990411100404...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
>glas said:
>>If these events prove true, and assuming Larwick *was* involved in the
>>murders and that is why he ran from the cops, it is reasonable to consider
>>that the wallet, credit cards and perhaps jewelry were stashed in his
>>personal possessions and taken by one of his acquaintances that decided
>>to
>>go through his things after his arrest.
>***The wallet and credit cards were found in Modesto on Feb. 19. Larwick
>wasn't arrested until Mar. 16.
^^^ All the credit cards?
Keith
kkramer
Buttrfld8 wrote in message <19990411022601...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>
>>Anyway, this latest story is more confirmation to me that the FBI
>>doesn't have much of anything. My guess--the real murder(s) are
>>feeling pretty smug about now.
>>Maggie
>
> > I don't share *those* particular feelings; I think they'd not
> have convened the GJ if they thought they'd not get info
> from those being subpoenaed.
>
>>Kris
>
> That they think they will get info from those subpoenaed does not
>confirm that they think *those* same are the *very*, or the only, ones
behind
>this. Could they hope to get *those ones* by getting to these?
^^^ GJ could be a trap in case they change their story later at the time of
trial. Impeachment. FBI knows who did this. The OJ defense looms on the
horizon, so to make that airtight case they have to corroborate or impeach
any conflicting testimony.
Keith
glas
| glas said:
| >If these events prove true, and assuming Larwick *was* involved in the
| >murders and that is why he ran from the cops, it is reasonable to
consider
| >that the wallet, credit cards and perhaps jewelry were stashed in his
| >personal possessions and taken by one of his acquaintances that decided
| >to
| >go through his things after his arrest.
|
| ***The wallet and credit cards were found in Modesto on Feb. 19. Larwick
| wasn't arrested until Mar. 16.
Okay, now that we all know that I've only been half-way paying attention
: ), I still think it's quite possible that someone could have taken the
items from Larwick's possessions. Maybe that is part of why he ran from
police, he was afraid that he had been turned in as being the person
initially in possession of the articles.
Kris Baker
I'm not sure *all* of the credit cards were recovered with
the wallet (I've found so many conflicting statements that I've
tried to clearly show the conflicts on the timeline.)
It's possible you're both correct, and there's other possibilities:
Since there's no way this crime was committed by one person,
it's likely that the "booty" was distributed among the various
participants. There's missing cash and we've got lots of
clues about credit cards, jewelry and "other valuables."
What usually happens to these kinds of things?
Traded for drugs or favors, pawned for cash, given to close
"friends."
These things didn't have to be *taken* from someone; they
could have been distributed around to various others,
right after the crime. The perps don't really *want* any
jewelry - they take it because it represents money. And..
I don't think they want to keep such items in their possession,
as it ties them to the crime.
Kris
kkramer
I wouldn't be surprised if they found the jewelry too hot to pawn.
Yes, it is exchange, but this heated up in a way the perps never expected.
I can see them getting caught holding. I can even see them being glib at
the outset at the way everyone was buzzing up the hill swarming around (I am
guilty, too) S&S.
Keith
Kris Baker wrote in message
<7eqo05$33m4$2...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
JoAnn
Since it's a slow news day why don't you start a thread with all the
unconfirmed things you know and/or have said on atc and then we can have
one thread that we can go to when the facts come out.
Seems you were saying last week something about Cathy being a grandma
and others couln't believe it. Right? Well, SJMN reported that fact. See
what I mean?
JoAnn
Keith says:
<<Go a little further on the jewelry. Pretend Cathy Clay was wearing
Carole's rings at the time she tried to use Carole's credit cards
resulting in her arrest... <assuming they went to her house after the
attempted use was reported at which time they hit her with the various
misc charges to place her under arrest>
What will the federal prosecutor ask Clay?
How did you get that credit card?
Where did you get those rings?
What will her answers be?
Then, what?
jb said:
**I keep searching Kris's timeline trying to find something about this
jewelry. Is this speculation on your part, Keith? Or have they really
found some of
the trio's belongings in someone's possession?
keith said:
Unconfirmed source in Modesto. Cathy Clay tried to use the credit card.
When police followed up at her home, she was arrested for misc charges
(child endangerment etc). She had Carole's rings, supposedly. It was
mentioned in SJ Mercury News today.
JoAnn
I have been fighting against including the women but my theory remains
Larwick, Dykes and one or two women... Cedar Lodge? Roamers... Just
speculation...
~~~2 men--2 women-- Valentine's Day weekend--could these 2 couples have
been staying at CL when our trio did?
Were the women accessories to the events?
Were they on the guest book?
Keith??? What kind of vehicles do your suspects drive and what do you
know about the 61 yr old g-grandma's criminal history. If you're going
to drop hints you might as well go for broke.
JoAnn
JoAnn
>>glas said:
If these events prove true, and assuming Larwick *was* involved in the
murders and that is why he ran from the cops, it is reasonable to
consider that the wallet, credit cards and perhaps jewelry were stashed
in his personal possessions and taken by one of his acquaintances that
decided to go through his things after his arrest.
>Maggie wrote:
***The wallet and credit cards were found in Modesto on Feb. 19. Larwick
wasn't arrested until Mar. 16.
>glas wrote:
Okay, now that we all know that I've only been half-way paying attention
;), I still think it's quite possible that someone could have taken the
items from Larwick's possessions. Maybe that is part of why he ran from
police, he was afraid that he had been turned in as being the person
initially in possession of the articles.
   Â
>Kris wrote:
I'm not sure *all* of the credit cards were recovered with  the
wallet (I've found so many conflicting statements that I've  tried to
clearly show the conflicts on the timeline.) Â It's possible you're
both correct, and there's other possibilities:
    Since there's no way this crime was committed by one
person, Â it's likely that the "booty" was distributed among the
various  participants.  There's missing cash and we've got lots of
 clues about credit cards, jewelry and "other valuables."
    What usually happens to these kinds of things?  Traded
for drugs
~~~Traded to L (for drugs) who didn't know they were 'hot' until he was
questioned? Maybe the real perps threw out the 'folio" on their way to
score some drugs?
Maybe Clay is an outlet for L's drugs and she acccepted the jewlery for
drugs not knowing they were 'hot' and she won't roll either with her
family still outside. OR she has rolled but LE is making look like she
hasn't to protect her family.
I still think about L and his plea to leave his family alone. Maybe they
have rolled him as a snitch and the plea was not to the law but to the
perps who remain on the outside. A message to them that he won't rat
them out?
~~~~~~
Buttrfld8
>confirm that they think *those* same are the *very*, or the only, ones
behind
>this. Could they hope to get *those ones* by getting to these?
^^^ GJ could be a trap in case they change their story later at the time of
trial. Impeachment. FBI knows who did this. The OJ defense looms on the
horizon, so to make that airtight case they have to corroborate or impeach
any conflicting testimony.
Keith
> Moi
>
>
>Sund/Pelosso website at:
><http://pages.prodigy.com/GMVY23A/sundtime.htm>
Thanks for response Keith. Yeah, I see that. And I'll eat my hat here.
based on lack of facts conjured up theory about possibility of Jens--but a
liklier theory would be planned by a CL insider--didn't Kris say maybe Strange
called in a few pals? Maybe B.S. said," hey, there's this rich b--and her hot
lookin daughters up here; let's have ourselves some fun.." B.J.S. could have
done his shift, met up w/ someone and when whole place is asleep... It's
the element of some degree of planning that gets me wondering--Jens Sund
mentioned that and several of you have. But by whom and when was this planning
done and to what end? There's a bigger picture here than just psycho meth
heads run amok. Moi
kkramer
What's really funny is some reporter wants to inteview me! No, I am not.
You must know by now that I know some of the players and lived in Modesto
for 20 yrs. I prefer to deny it, though.
Regarding Clay, I didn't know exactly but these Oakballs start early. Some
things I know will never come out. It's the way the cops play the game in
Modesto.
Keith
JoAnn wrote in message <7218-371...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>...
Kris Baker
>kkr...@2extreme.net wrote:
>>^^^ GJ could be a trap in case they change their story later at the
>>time of trial. Impeachment. FBI knows who did this. The OJ
>>defense looms on the horizon, so to make that airtight case they
>>have to corroborate or impeach any conflicting testimony.
>>Keith
>Thanks for response Keith. Yeah, I see that. And I'll eat my hat
>here. based on lack of facts conjured up theory about possibility
>of Jens--but a liklier theory would be planned by a CL insider--
>didn't Kris say maybe Strange called in a few pals?
I can't remember saying that exactly (that S/S called in some
pals - although any perp would have had to have planned this
OR called the Criminal Taxi Service .)
I *do* think that this began at Cedar Lodge - but we
don't know if there was any contact between any of the
"named suspects" and the victims. S&S' workshifts began
at 11pm and an 8-hour shift would end at 7am. One thing
that still makes me wonder about S&S is that they're the
only ones who we know had *opportunity* to have such
contact - especially if the victims were leaving the room
in the early hours of the 14th, 15th, or 16th.
One thing that's been recently mentioned in news reports
is that Strange *did not* pass the polygraph (but it's also
mentioned that the questions posed are unknown.)
>Maybe B.S. said," hey, there's this rich b--and her hot lookin
>daughters up here; let's have ourselves some fun.." B.J.S.
>could have done his shift, met up w/ someone and when
>whole place is asleep...
Or...just a mention to the "wrong person" that there's
some young girls staying with a woman, in a remote
part of Cedar Lodge.
>It's the element of some degree of planning that gets me
>wondering--Jens Sund mentioned that and several of you
>have. But by whom and when was this planning done and
>to what end? There's a bigger picture here than just
>psycho meth heads run amok. Moi
I do agree that there's evidence of planning:
The (to me) "deflection" away from the actual crime
scene(s) by dropping the wallet in Modesto.
Disposal of bodies in two different manners (or...does
this merely indicate that the perps had victims in
different cars, and one stopped at the scenic vista
to have his own brand of "fun.")
The need to *have* more than one car to make this
thing work. If one creep started this by himself, he
had to marshall in the Local Assistance League.
Burning of the car to destroy evidence.
More? I'm sure moi and others can come up with
more things that involve some sort of planning.
I just don't know whether I think this was a planned
crime at the outset. It could be, or it could be merely the
planning done to cover their tracks once the crime was
underway.
The investigators *may* know who did it, and *could be*
seeking the Major Planner behind the whole thing - as I've
speculated since the GJ began.
I'm just not smart enough to make the decision as to which
way I'm leaning.
Kris
kkramer
return a car without an owner even knowing...
Source would not be surprised if Cathy Clay were involved in the actual
killings.
61 yr old Grandma lived in a farmhouse with her daughter, and an article, I
recall, mentioned raids and gunfire were not uncommon. 61 has the same drug
history as 36 and no doubt 36's daughter.
36 was arrested Mar 13 after tendering Carole's credit card and was found in
possession of Carole's rings. This subterfuge about child neglect is a red
herring. Modesto is a very small town. Clay is on felony parole. She goes
to the same convenience store near Prescott Estates. The store called the
police after she left. No confrontation because of the danger involved. It
was a ruse to bust her for the kid playing outside. The kid has been
playing unattended outside all its life.
The jewelry is a red herring, too. Authorities have no interest whatsoever
in recovering jewelry. More subterfuge to protect from liability for naming
someone a suspect before charges are filed. The jewelry will corroborate
the DNA evidence. So, let's see how it plays out.
Valentine Day Weekend: how sweet, huh? These guys prefer Motel 6 to CL,
wouldn't you say? Cranking and binging.
Keith
JoAnn wrote in message <7217-371...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>...
JoAnn
LOLOLOL
What's really funny is some reporter wants to inteview me!
~~~~~~
No, I am not.
~~~Not what? Is it me this time or is this whole post worded funny.
~~~~~~~
You must know by now that I know some of the players and lived in
Modesto for 20 yrs. I prefer to deny it, though.
Regarding Clay, I didn't know exactly but these Oakballs
~~~Oakball? I don't have a definition for this in my head, help me out.
~~~~~~~~~`
start early. Some things I know will never come out. It's the way the
cops play the game in Modesto.
~~~So, enquiring minds still want to know. Wan to go to encrypted
e-mail? <G>
I just mainly wanted a list of what you've already posted. Looks like
you'd be proud of the things you've gotten right.
JoAnn
~~~~~~~~
JoAnn wrote in message <7218-371...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>...
~~~Keith,
Since it's a slow news day why don't you start a thread with all the
unconfirmed things you know and/or have said on atc and then we can have
one thread that we can go to when the facts come out.
Seems you were saying last week  something about Cathy being a
grandma and others couln't believe it. Right? Well, SJMN reported that
fact. See what I mean?
JoAnn
They borrow cars. Since they roam at night, it's easy to take off and
return a car without an owner even knowing...
Source would not be surprised if Cathy Clay were involved in the actual
killings.
61 yr old Grandma lived in a farmhouse with her daughter, and an
article, I recall, mentioned raids and gunfire were not uncommon. 61 has
the same drug history as 36
and no doubt 36's daughter.
~~~Also that was where Dykes was caught one time with his sawed-off
shotgun. Then there's L's rocket launcer. Were they moving stolen guns
too? Clay isn't their sister is she? And 61 their mother?
`~~~~~~~
and no doubt 36's daughter.
~~~She wouldn't happen to be a student
at the schools near the 'folio' drop would she? Is she the mother of the
1 yr old?
Are these nice apts'(from the SJMN) hear that intersection?
~~~~~~~~~
36 was arrested Mar 13 after tendering
Carole's credit card and was found in possession of Carole's rings. This
subterfuge about child neglect is a red herring.
~~~ LE had to have a crime to cite her.
~~~~~`
Modesto is a very small town. Clay is on felony parole. She goes to the
same convenience store near Prescott Estates.
~~~Keith!!! Prescott Estates was in one of my unsolved cases I posted
yesteday. Is this coincedence or just par for the coast in that
neighborhood?
~~~~~~
The store called the police after she left. No confrontation because of
the danger involved. It was a ruse to bust her for the kid playing
outside. The kid has been playing unattended outside all its life.
The jewelry is a red herring, too. Authorities have no interest
whatsoever in recovering jewelry. More subterfuge to protect from
liability for naming someone a suspect before charges are filed. The
jewelry will corroborate the DNA evidence. So, let's see how it plays
out.
Valentine Day Weekend: how sweet, huh? These guys prefer Motel 6 to CL,
wouldn't you say? Cranking and binging.
~~~Unless one the women planned it, and they went along since it was
being paid for b someone else.
~~~~~~~~~
Keith wrote:
I have been fighting against including the women but my theory remains
Larwick, Dykes and one or two women... Cedar Lodge? Roamers... Just
speculation...
glas
snip...
|
| I just don't know whether I think this was a planned
| crime at the outset. It could be, or it could be merely the
| planning done to cover their tracks once the crime was
| underway.
|
| The investigators *may* know who did it, and *could be*
| seeking the Major Planner behind the whole thing - as I've
| speculated since the GJ began.
|
| I'm just not smart enough to make the decision as to which
| way I'm leaning.
I certainly wish that we knew more about the state of the bodies and the
results of the autopsies than simply that they have confirmed the
identities. It would be helpful to know who they think was killed first -
Julie or Carole and Silvina - and also if any sexual assaults were likely or
proven.
Since the spot where Julie was found is in between the place they were last
seen and the place where they found the car, I'm thinking that a possible
scenario is one that begins at the place where Julie was found. Perhaps the
trio had been told of this "scenic vista" and wanted to explore it for
themselves or maybe they were lured there for the purpose of robbery. I can
see a group of two or more individuals with them and maybe at first it is
just casual but then it turns ugly. Julie tries to escape and she is chased
down and killed - either accidentally or by an overzealous bad guy - or
maybe during a sexual assault. Then the bad guys realize they must get rid
of the witnesses and load Carole and Silvina into the trunk of the car,
drive them to the spot where it was ultimately found, ransack it for any
valuables, torch it with the pair inside, and leave.
glas
alt.true-crime WebSite and FAQ can be found here -
http://www.geocities.com/~alttruecrime/
the keeper of the FAQ resides here -
http://www.donet.com/~glas/
The dumber people think you are,
The more surprised they'll be when you kill them
--- William Clayton
JoAnn
36 was arrested Mar 13 after tendering Carole's credit card and was
found in possession of Carole's rings. This subterfuge about child
neglect is a red herring. Modesto is a very small town. Clay is on
felony parole. She goes to the same convenience store near **Prescott
Estates.**
~~~Here's the article about Prescott Estates:
~~~~~~~~
Sund/Pelosso - other area murders/missing
Info about Cathy Irene Sweet
<http://www.modbee.com/pagearc/A14441.htm>
(Published: Friday, February 20, 1998)
"Homicide detectives need the public's help to solve the murder of a
32-year-old Modesto woman whose nude body was found in a pickup truck
abandoned in an orchard, Stanislaus County sheriff's deputies said
Friday. Kathy Irene Sweet had been dead several hours when her body was
found at about 8:30 a.m. Jan. 14."
"The Sheriff's Department had received a call from someone reporting a
suspicious pickup parked in an orchard in the 3900 block of Coffee Road
near Silverwood Mobile Home Park, deputy Tammy Drew said." "Deputies
found Sweet's body inside the truck, which was parked about 200 feet
into the orchard from Coffee. Detectives are not revealing how Sweet was
killed."
Sweet lived with her boyfriend on Chrysler Drive in the **Prescott
Estates Area**, he last saw her about 2 the morning she died. The
boyfriend told investigators Sweet left driving his light blue Mazda
B2200 pickup. Her body was found inside the pickup 61/2 hours later,
Sweet was killed sometime between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m. When she left home,
Sweet was wearing a blue sweater, blue sweatshirt, blue spandex pants
and white athletic shoes. The victim's clothing has not been found.
Sweet's killing is the only homicide in the unincorporated area of the
county this year." ~~~~~~~~~
<http://www.modbee.com/pagearc/A12999.htm>
January 17, 1998
Witnesses sought Stanislaus County sheriff's detectives hope residents
of a **northeast Modesto** neighborhood can help them solve a homicide.
Someone killed Kathy Irene Sweet, 32, sometime before dawn Wednesday and
left her body in a light blue Mazda pickup in an orchard in the 3900
block of Coffee Road.
The **killer then fled south on foot** into a neighborhood that includes
Grand Prix and Drakeshire drives, Also:
Sweet also was known as Kathy Irene Meadows and sometimes went by the
name Cindy,
JoAnn
Keith wrote about Prescott Estates:
36 was arrested Mar 13 after tendering Carole's credit card and was
found in possession of Carole's rings. This subterfuge about child
neglect is a red herring. Modesto is a very small town. Clay is on
felony parole. She goes to the same convenience store near **Prescott
Estates.**
~~~Here's the article about Prescott Estates:
~~~~~~~~
Sund/Pelosso - other area murders/missing
Info about Cathy Irene Sweet
<http://www2.modbee.com/pagearc/A14441.htm>
(Published: Friday, February 20, 1998)
"Homicide detectives need the public's help to solve the murder of a
32-year-old Modesto woman whose nude body was found in a pickup truck
abandoned in an orchard, Stanislaus County sheriff's deputies said
Friday. Kathy Irene Sweet had been dead several hours when her body was
found at about 8:30 a.m. Jan. 14."
"The Sheriff's Department had received a call from someone reporting a
suspicious pickup parked in an orchard in the 3900 block of Coffee Road
near Silverwood Mobile Home Park, deputy Tammy Drew said." "Deputies
found Sweet's body inside the truck, which was parked about 200 feet
into the orchard from Coffee. Detectives are not revealing how Sweet was
killed."
Sweet lived with her boyfriend on Chrysler Drive in the **Prescott
Estates Area**, he last saw her about 2 the morning she died. The
boyfriend told investigators Sweet left driving his light blue Mazda
B2200 pickup. Her body was found inside the pickup 61/2 hours later,
Sweet was killed sometime between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m. When she left home,
Sweet was wearing a blue sweater, blue sweatshirt, blue spandex pants
and white athletic shoes. The victim's clothing has not been found.
Sweet's killing is the only homicide in the unincorporated area of the
county this year."
~~~~~~~~~
<http://www2.modbee.com/pagearc/A12999.htm>
Patty
on the 16th and I'm sure there would have been positive sightings of the
three in Yosemite. They would have had to do the rest of their viewing of
Yosemite. And people just don't go to view Don Pedro. It's nice but most
people who stop there are actually stopping there for boating. If they had
gotten to that point, it would have had to be by 12:30 to make that 2:00
Stockton appt. I just don't think that they were visiting that vista.
glas wrote in message ...
Patty
and ran into problems. They had to leave early, between 6:30 and 8:00 on
the 16th. There are no gas stations in Yosemite (there once were 2 but they
closed them either last year or the year before). They couldn't go back 140
once in Yosemite on the 16th because the road would be closed. They
wouldn't know where the gas stations were on 120 and how far out of
Yosemite. I don't know how late the El Portal Gas Station stays open but
maybe they didn't buy earlier. 140 was open President's weekend all the
time. Maybe Carole found out it was to be closed the next day and realized
she needed gas. Maybe El Portal gas station was closed and she had to go to
Mariposa and was hijacked on the way. just throwing it out there.
Kris Baker wrote in message
>"glas" <gl...@donet.com> wrote:
>
>>Kris Baker posted in a.t-c ...
>
>>snip...
>
>>| I just don't know whether I think this was a planned
>>| crime at the outset. It could be, or it could be merely the
>>| planning done to cover their tracks once the crime was
>>| underway.
>
>>| The investigators *may* know who did it, and *could be*
>>| seeking the Major Planner behind the whole thing - as I've
>>| speculated since the GJ began.
>
>>| I'm just not smart enough to make the decision as to which
>>| way I'm leaning.
>
>>I certainly wish that we knew more about the state of the bodies
>>and the results of the autopsies than simply that they have
>>confirmed the identities.
>
> "somewhat.") Carole and Sylvina: burnt so badly that
> they've still not reported that they've discovered the
> cause(s) of death. Still haven't positively confirmed
> Sylvina's identity (99% positive, but not confirmed.)
>
> Juli's body was most likely not totally skeletal (it looked
> "body shaped" in the body bag when carried on the
> stretcher downhill) , but badly decomposed ("looked like it
> had been dumped weeks earlier") and was only covered
> with brush.
>
>>It would be helpful to know who they think was killed first -
>>Julie or Carole and Silvina - and also if any sexual assaults were
>>likely or proven.
>
> based on the fact that they've been taking DNA samples from
> "suspects" and that Juli's cause of death has been determined)...
> I think there's a 99% probability that Juli was sexually
> assaulted.
>
>>Since the spot where Julie was found is in between the place they
>>were last seen and the place where they found the car, I'm thinking
>>that a possible scenario is one that begins at the place where
>>Julie was found. Perhaps the trio had been told of this "scenic
>>vista" and wanted to explore it for themselves or maybe they
>>were lured there for the purpose of robbery. I can see a group
>>of two or more individuals with them and maybe at first it is
>>just casual but then it turns ugly. Julie tries to escape and she is
>>chased down and killed - either accidentally or by an overzealous
>>bad guy - or maybe during a sexual assault. Then the bad guys
>>realize they must get rid of the witnesses and load Carole and
>>Silvina into the trunk of the car, drive them to the spot where it
>>was ultimately found, ransack it for any valuables, torch it with
>>the pair inside, and leave.
>>glas
>
> with "began 'somehow' at Cedar Lodge" - even if they
> were merely targeted there.) I'm nuts, though. ;)
>
> I don't think "cautious Carole" who's reported to have
> even known what to do in an emergency if threatened
> with such a thing, would be lured to pull over by anyone.
> But....one news report (SF Examiner, I believe) said that
> it was very snowy that day. If they skidded off the road,
> and the wrong person stopped to help......
JoAnn
he did to being stopped.
Any of this info sound right Keith? I'm not trying to push you, really.
Just curious.
JoAnn
FBI steps up hunt for Sund suspects
<http://www.pressdemo.com/local/news/22900.html>
"A day after his parole officer was tipped last week that Larwick was
believed to be running a methamphetamine lab in southern Modesto, a
Modesto officer tried to stop Larwick for having an expired registration
on the car he was driving. Police said Larwick sped off, prompting a
pursuit that ended when he flipped his car. (I haven't heard he flipped
his car.)
Larwick emerged from the car firing a handgun and wounded the officer
who was still seated in his patrol car, police said. Larwick then forced
his way into an empty residence and barricaded himself inside for 13
hours before surrendering March 17, police said. Larwick is being held
on $1 million bail.
The shooting was a few blocks from where Carole Sund's wallet insert and
credit cards turned up Feb. 19. Last weekend, about 15 agents searched
Larwick's Modesto rental home where he lived up until about a month ago.
FBI officials still refuse to comment on Larwick and say no one has been
arrested in relation to the investigation of the missing women.
Larwick is well-known to authorities in the area, as well as in Tuolumne
County, where his most violent crimes occurred. He spent much of the
past decade in prison on drug and weapon convictions. Before that he
served terms for forcible rape, forced oral copulation and kidnapping,
for which he was convicted in Sonora in 1980, according to court and
state corrections records. Larwick also has a 1996 conviction for
attempted voluntary manslaughter in Tuolumne County and was paroled less
than a year ago, according to court records. In 1989, he pleaded guilty
to possession of drugs for sale, receipt of stolen property, evading a
police officer and being an ex-felon in possession of a sawed-off
shotgun."
Patty
to Tuolomne County, they had mentioned another man that worked at the El
Portal gas station. He was let go on February 14th and had worked with
Strange at one time. They went looking for him but never found him. It was
said that he went to the San Diego area.
Kris Baker wrote in message
>"Patty" <x...@yyy.com> wrote:
>
>> Maybe they needed to gas up that morning or they gassed up
>>the night before and ran into problems. They had to leave early,
>>between 6:30 and 8:00 on the 16th. There are no gas stations in
>>Yosemite (there once were 2 but they closed them either last year
>>or the year before).
>
> bought it. I'm assuming that they purchased gas on the
> 14th before heading into Yosemite (I've even gone so far
> as to calculate the gas mileage on that particular model
> of car - and they should have had plenty to get them
> back at least to Modesto or Stockton.) But....we don't
> know when the last "gas up" was.
>
>>They couldn't go back 140 once in Yosemite on the 16th because
>>the road would be closed. They wouldn't know where the gas
>>stations were on 120 and how far out of Yosemite. I don't know
>>how late the El Portal Gas Station stays open but maybe they didn't
>>buy earlier.
>>140 was open President's weekend all the time. Maybe Carole found
>>out it was to be closed the next day and realized she needed gas.
>>Maybe El Portal gas station was closed and she had to go to
>>Mariposa and was hijacked on the way. just throwing it out there.
>
> the gas station at El Portal is another "suspect" site (at
> least for a "targeting".) Strange *did* used to work there
> and was friendly with the owner.
>
> It's known that the gas station owner in El Portal was
> questioned - I wonder if that's where they gassed up?
> If they gassed up on the 14th (Carole "always filled the
> tank")....they had plenty.
kkramer
play.
If Strange and Stephens are out - they passed lie detector tests - they the
only way Larwick could have known about them is by roving, seeing them
parked in the back of CL, see that no one else was around, and took the
opportunity. They sought to live out the plan devised long ago in their
sick minds.
I see no conspiracy. I see no other players. I see Larwick, Dykes, and one
or two women. Very sick.
Keith
kkramer
> don't know if there was any contact between any of the
> "named suspects" and the victims. S&S' workshifts began
> at 11pm and an 8-hour shift would end at 7am. One thing
> that still makes me wonder about S&S is that they're the
> only ones who we know had *opportunity* to have such
> contact
^^^ Unless they were actually targeted and followed...
- especially if the victims were leaving the room
> in the early hours of the 14th, 15th, or 16th.
>
> One thing that's been recently mentioned in news reports
> is that Strange *did not* pass the polygraph (but it's also
> mentioned that the questions posed are unknown.)
^^^ Didn't pass polygraph? Well, well... Did Strange know Larwick? I
heard not. What's the scoop on that angle?
>>Maybe B.S. said," hey, there's this rich b--and her hot lookin
>>daughters up here; let's have ourselves some fun.." B.J.S.
>>could have done his shift, met up w/ someone and when
>>whole place is asleep...
> Or...just a mention to the "wrong person" that there's
> some young girls staying with a woman, in a remote
> part of Cedar Lodge.
^^^ An innocent remark to the wrong person... This wrong person having
noticed and asked about vacancy at CL...
>>It's the element of some degree of planning that gets me
>>wondering--Jens Sund mentioned that and several of you
>>have. But by whom and when was this planning done and
>>to what end? There's a bigger picture here than just
>>psycho meth heads run amok. Moi
> I do agree that there's evidence of planning:
> The (to me) "deflection" away from the actual crime
> scene(s) by dropping the wallet in Modesto.
> Disposal of bodies in two different manners (or...does
> this merely indicate that the perps had victims in
> different cars, and one stopped at the scenic vista
> to have his own brand of "fun.")
> The need to *have* more than one car to make this
> thing work. If one creep started this by himself, he
> had to marshall in the Local Assistance League.
> Burning of the car to destroy evidence.
> More? I'm sure moi and others can come up with
> more things that involve some sort of planning.
> I just don't know whether I think this was a planned
> crime at the outset. It could be, or it could be merely the
> planning done to cover their tracks once the crime was
> underway.
> The investigators *may* know who did it, and *could be*
> seeking the Major Planner behind the whole thing - as I've
> speculated since the GJ began.
> I'm just not smart enough to make the decision as to which
> way I'm leaning.
^^^ Just short enough on facts... to prevent one from betting on his
theory...
Kris Baker
>I am starting to see the allegations "roving" and "targeting" come into
>play.
>If Strange and Stephens are out - they passed lie detector tests -
I have my sources, too ;) One of them is an online newspaper
report and another one is someone at a completely different
newspaper. Both report that Strange did *not* pass his
polygraph. But.....there's a big caveat: the exact nature
of the question(s) "flunked" is not known.
>they the only way Larwick could have known about them is by
>roving, seeing them parked in the back of CL, see that no one
>else was around, and took the opportunity. They sought to
>live out the plan devised long ago in their sick minds.
>I see no conspiracy. I see no other players. I see Larwick, Dykes,
>and one or two women. Very sick.
>Keith
>
>
Kris Baker
>> I *do* think that this began at Cedar Lodge - but we
>> don't know if there was any contact between any of the
>> "named suspects" and the victims. S&S' workshifts began
>> at 11pm and an 8-hour shift would end at 7am. One thing
>> that still makes me wonder about S&S is that they're the
>> only ones who we know had *opportunity* to have such
>> contact
>^^^ Unless they were actually targeted and followed...
But...targeted from *where*? While in their car? I've
never quite seen it that way, as there's plenty of
opportunities to pick anyone while they're not driving
their car. The "targeting" came (imho) while they weren't
in the car - and where were they out of it the most? At
CL -- and while loading luggage that morning.
> - especially if the victims were leaving the room
>> in the early hours of the 14th, 15th, or 16th.
>> One thing that's been recently mentioned in news reports
>> is that Strange *did not* pass the polygraph (but it's also
>> mentioned that the questions posed are unknown.)
>^^^ Didn't pass polygraph? Well, well...
No one knows *which* questions he did not pass...but
it's in an online report I read in the past three days, and
confirms something I was told privately (and which I was
told I *could* pass on, but I waited until I saw something
in print - from a different source.) I've been sitting back,
waiting for others to mention it -- but no one did. ;)
>Did Strange know Larwick? I heard not. What's the scoop on
>that angle?
No scoop - I have no idea. Even IF I had info, I wouldn't
pass it along unless I saw a printed report confirming
it.
kkramer
~~~What time Tuesday?
living in Long Barn.... a few years back a mother and child killed.
Unsolved. I called the Long Barn Lodge today but only got a recording...
No, I am not. ^^^<going to be interviewed>^^^
You must know by now that I know some of the players and lived in
Modesto for 20 yrs. I prefer to deny it, though.
Regarding Clay, I didn't know exactly but these Oakballs
~~~Oakball? I don't have a definition for this in my head, help me out.
^^^ Okies that roll through life: Oakballs
start early. Some things I know will never come out. It's the way the
cops play the game in Modesto.
^^^ I have familiarity with MPD procedure.
I just mainly wanted a list of what you've already posted. Looks like
you'd be proud of the things you've gotten right.
^^^ I had a source. Otherwise, I wouldn't know any more than anyone else.
I think the prior email contained the only info I had which had been already
posted.
Keith
Maggie8097
>Since the spot where Julie was found is in between the place they were last
>seen and the place where they found the car, I'm thinking that a possible
>scenario is one that begins at the place where Julie was found. Perhaps
>the
>trio had been told of this "scenic vista" and wanted to explore it for
>themselves or maybe they were lured there for the purpose of robbery. I
>can
>see a group of two or more individuals with them and maybe at first it is
>just casual but then it turns ugly. Julie tries to escape and she is chased
>down and killed - either accidentally or by an overzealous bad guy - or
>of the witnesses and load Carole and Silvina into the trunk of the car,
>drive them to the spot where it was ultimately found, ransack it for any
>valuables, torch it with the pair inside, and leave.
***That's my best guess, as well.
Maggie
"You don't really understand human nature unless you know why a child on a
merry-go-round will wave at his parents every time around--and why his parents
will always wave back."--William D. Tammeus
Maggie8097
>^^^ I referred her to the crimes we suspect Larwick had a part in while
>living in Long Barn.... a few years back a mother and child killed.
>Unsolved.
***Careful with those, "we's," please.
kkramer
They borrow cars. Since they roam at night, it's easy to take off and
return a car without an owner even knowing...
Source would not be surprised if Cathy Clay were involved in the actual
killings.
61 yr old Grandma lived in a farmhouse with her daughter, and an
article, I recall, mentioned raids and gunfire were not uncommon. 61 has
the same drug history as 36
and no doubt 36's daughter.
~~~Also that was where Dykes was caught one time with his sawed-off
shotgun. Then there's L's rocket launcer. Were they moving stolen guns
too? Clay isn't their sister is she? And 61 their mother?
^^^Dykes was there, too. Article mentioned that. Don't know about the
guns.... I think Larwick cooked at a farmhouse. Tie in?
and no doubt 36's daughter.
~~~She wouldn't happen to be a student
at the schools near the 'folio' drop would she? Is she the mother of the
1 yr old?
^^^ In school? Huh? They don't return to school after having a child. I
don't know who the kid is who found the wallet insert... I do know that
Briggsmore Expressway runs east and west and is designed to speed you across
town at 45 - 50 mph and there are no sidewalks. It's like walking down the
freeway.
Are these nice apts'(from the SJMN) hear that intersection?
^^^ The apts are terrible if they are the ones near Prescott Estates or
Prescott Estates.... Very trashy.... I wondered about the description of
the apts...
~~~~~~~~~
36 was arrested Mar 13 after tendering
Carole's credit card and was found in possession of Carole's rings. This
subterfuge about child neglect is a red herring.
~~~ LE had to have a crime to cite her.
^^^ Anything to hold her. That gives them time to obtain search warrant and
limits her access to destroy evidence in her house. Besides, it throws 36
off the trail.
Modesto is a very small town. Clay is on felony parole. She goes to the
same convenience store near Prescott Estates.
~~~Keith!!! Prescott Estates was in one of my unsolved cases I posted
yesteday. Is this coincedence or just par for the coast in that
neighborhood?
^^^ Par for drugville. Post separate thread on Prescott Estates Crime
Report...
The store called the police after she left. No confrontation because of
the danger involved. It was a ruse to bust her for the kid playing
outside. The kid has been playing unattended outside all its life.
The jewelry is a red herring, too. Authorities have no interest
whatsoever in recovering jewelry. More subterfuge to protect from
liability for naming someone a suspect before charges are filed. The
jewelry will corroborate the DNA evidence. So, let's see how it plays
out.
Valentine Day Weekend: how sweet, huh? These guys prefer Motel 6 to CL,
wouldn't you say? Cranking and binging.
~~~Unless one the women planned it, and they went along since it was
being paid for b someone else.
^^^ Yes... These guys are way out there. It is a good study on the
longterm use of meth. Whatever is unveiled is reasonable to expect from
other longterm meth abusers.
Keith wrote:
I have been fighting against including the women but my theory remains
Larwick, Dykes and one or two women... Cedar Lodge? Roamers... Just
speculation...
JoAnn wrote:
~~~2 men--2 women-- Valentine's Day weekend--could these 2 couples have
been staying at CL when our trio did?
^^^ Doubt it. Sleep is not on the activity calendar.
Were the women accessories to the events?
^^^ Yes, I believe so...
Were they on the guest book? ^^^ hardly... They probably have a difficult
time writing, really.
^^^ They binge and stay up for days on end. A motel is not in the cards.
Keith??? What kind of vehicles do your suspects drive and what do you
know about the 61 yr old g-grandma's criminal history. If you're going
to drop hints you might as well go for broke.
^^^ Don't know on the vehicles; 61 is a druggie like the 36. All meth
addicts. I can image what she looks like after 61 yr of it, too.
I will ask about vehicles.... With Larwick being a mechanic, who knows what
they were driving that night...
Keith
kkramer
accepted and got caught up with the drug crowd. Could it be the Larwick
gang? They have his DNA so....
Keith
JoAnn wrote in message <7216-371...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>...
>Keith wrote about Prescott Estates:
36 was arrested Mar 13 after tendering Carole's credit card and was
found in possession of Carole's rings. This subterfuge about child
neglect is a red herring. Modesto is a very small town. Clay is on
felony parole. She goes to the same convenience store near **Prescott
Estates.**
~~~Here's the article about Prescott Estates:
~~~~~~~~
Sund/Pelosso - other area murders/missing
Info about Cathy Irene Sweet
<http://www.modbee.com/pagearc/A14441.htm>
(Published: Friday, February 20, 1998)
"Homicide detectives need the public's help to solve the murder of a
32-year-old Modesto woman whose nude body was found in a pickup truck
abandoned in an orchard, Stanislaus County sheriff's deputies said
Friday. Kathy Irene Sweet had been dead several hours when her body was
found at about 8:30 a.m. Jan. 14."
"The Sheriff's Department had received a call from someone reporting a
suspicious pickup parked in an orchard in the 3900 block of Coffee Road
near Silverwood Mobile Home Park, deputy Tammy Drew said." "Deputies
found Sweet's body inside the truck, which was parked about 200 feet
into the orchard from Coffee. Detectives are not revealing how Sweet was
killed."
Sweet lived with her boyfriend on Chrysler Drive in the **Prescott
Estates Area**, he last saw her about 2 the morning she died. The
boyfriend told investigators Sweet left driving his light blue Mazda
B2200 pickup. Her body was found inside the pickup 61/2 hours later,
Sweet was killed sometime between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m. When she left home,
Sweet was wearing a blue sweater, blue sweatshirt, blue spandex pants
and white athletic shoes. The victim's clothing has not been found.
Sweet's killing is the only homicide in the unincorporated area of the
county this year." ~~~~~~~~~
<http://www.modbee.com/pagearc/A12999.htm>
kkramer
> But...targeted from *where*? While in their car? I've
> never quite seen it that way, as there's plenty of
> opportunities to pick anyone while they're not driving
> their car. The "targeting" came (imho) while they weren't
> in the car - and where were they out of it the most? At
> CL -- and while loading luggage that morning.
^^^ Yes, very possible. What about any outings? Ice skating etc.
>> - especially if the victims were leaving the room
>>> in the early hours of the 14th, 15th, or 16th.
^^^ FBI knows something that makes it estimate departure late the 15th or
early am 16th... I don't see it as a daylight crime, not on crank.
>>> One thing that's been recently mentioned in news reports
>>> is that Strange *did not* pass the polygraph (but it's also
>>> mentioned that the questions posed are unknown.)
>
>>^^^ Didn't pass polygraph? Well, well...
^^^ I am in a fog here: so Strange did NOT pass the lie detector test? Or,
failed certain questions.... What questions did he fail??? I assume no
questions relating to kidnap, carjack, rape, and murder.... since the FBI is
looking elsewhere... drug-related questions? I assume.
> No one knows *which* questions he did not pass...but
> it's in an online report I read in the past three days, and
> confirms something I was told privately (and which I was
> told I *could* pass on, but I waited until I saw something
> in print - from a different source.) I've been sitting back,
> waiting for others to mention it -- but no one did. ;)
>
>>Did Strange know Larwick? I heard not. What's the scoop on
>>that angle?
>
> No scoop - I have no idea. Even IF I had info, I wouldn't
> pass it along unless I saw a printed report confirming
> it.
>
^^^ I read that Strange did not know Larwick. That's what I mean when I say
the poor dumb SOB, I may owe Strange an apology :)
kkramer
Kris Baker wrote in message
>"kkramer" <kkr...@2xtreme.net> wrote:
>>I am starting to see the allegations "roving" and "targeting" come into
>>play.
>
>>If Strange and Stephens are out - they passed lie detector tests -
>
> I have my sources, too ;) One of them is an online newspaper
> report and another one is someone at a completely different
> newspaper. Both report that Strange did *not* pass his
> polygraph. But.....there's a big caveat: the exact nature
> of the question(s) "flunked" is not known.
^^^ There isn't a parolee picked up that would pass every question on his
lie detector test and that goes for the women, too...
>>they the only way Larwick could have known about them is by
>>roving, seeing them parked in the back of CL, see that no one
>>else was around, and took the opportunity. They sought to
>>live out the plan devised long ago in their sick minds.
>>I see no conspiracy. I see no other players. I see Larwick, Dykes,
>>and one or two women. Very sick.
>>Keith
>>
>>
Kris Baker
>Kris Baker posted in a.t-c ...
>snip...
>| I just don't know whether I think this was a planned
>| crime at the outset. It could be, or it could be merely the
>| planning done to cover their tracks once the crime was
>| underway.
>| The investigators *may* know who did it, and *could be*
>| seeking the Major Planner behind the whole thing - as I've
>| speculated since the GJ began.
>| I'm just not smart enough to make the decision as to which
>| way I'm leaning.
>I certainly wish that we knew more about the state of the bodies
>and the results of the autopsies than simply that they have
>confirmed the identities.
Actually....we do know the state of the bodies (at least
"somewhat.") Carole and Sylvina: burnt so badly that
they've still not reported that they've discovered the
cause(s) of death. Still haven't positively confirmed
Sylvina's identity (99% positive, but not confirmed.)
Juli's body was most likely not totally skeletal (it looked
"body shaped" in the body bag when carried on the
stretcher downhill) , but badly decomposed ("looked like it
had been dumped weeks earlier") and was only covered
with brush.
>It would be helpful to know who they think was killed first -
>Julie or Carole and Silvina - and also if any sexual assaults were
>likely or proven.
Just my opinion, but based on what they're looking for (and
based on the fact that they've been taking DNA samples from
"suspects" and that Juli's cause of death has been determined)...
I think there's a 99% probability that Juli was sexually
assaulted.
>Since the spot where Julie was found is in between the place they
>were last seen and the place where they found the car, I'm thinking
>that a possible scenario is one that begins at the place where
>Julie was found. Perhaps the trio had been told of this "scenic
>vista" and wanted to explore it for themselves or maybe they
>were lured there for the purpose of robbery. I can see a group
>of two or more individuals with them and maybe at first it is
>just casual but then it turns ugly. Julie tries to escape and she is
>chased down and killed - either accidentally or by an overzealous
>bad guy - or maybe during a sexual assault. Then the bad guys
>realize they must get rid of the witnesses and load Carole and
>Silvina into the trunk of the car, drive them to the spot where it
>was ultimately found, ransack it for any valuables, torch it with
>the pair inside, and leave.
>glas
I think that's the most popular scenario (I'm still holding
with "began 'somehow' at Cedar Lodge" - even if they
were merely targeted there.) I'm nuts, though. ;)
I don't think "cautious Carole" who's reported to have
even known what to do in an emergency if threatened
with such a thing, would be lured to pull over by anyone.
But....one news report (SF Examiner, I believe) said that
it was very snowy that day. If they skidded off the road,
and the wrong person stopped to help......
Kris Baker
>>>> One thing that's been recently mentioned in news reports
>>>> is that Strange *did not* pass the polygraph (but it's also
>>>> mentioned that the questions posed are unknown.)
>>>^^^ Didn't pass polygraph? Well, well...
>^^^ I am in a fog here: so Strange did NOT pass the lie detector test?
Or,
>failed certain questions.... What questions did he fail??? I assume
no
>questions relating to kidnap, carjack, rape, and murder.... since the
FBI is
>looking elsewhere... drug-related questions? I assume.
Don't know what he failed, but it was obviously enough to
hold interest in him *for awhile.* Perhaps not now, but
then.
Kris Baker
JoAnn
<http://www.times-standard.com/mainhed/docs/1999/april_1999/april11_1999/sund_eulogize.htm>
As 2 eulogized, Sund talks of profound loss
EUREKA — Jens and Carole Sund were heading into what they thought
would be the best years of their marriage, having ***lived according to
the pages of her thick daily planner.**
Their four kids — three adopted and one natural — were growing up
and ***meeting the list of goals she had meticulously laid out.*** They
were rewarded for their efforts, according to the planner, as they
became more self-sufficient.
Jens has taken over the planner, realizing what a good team they had
made by balancing opposite personalities. He said she was a lot like her
father, Francis Carrington,(who)... completes work before seeking
pleasure.
"It won't be the same," he said last week. ***"I'm not going to run
things like she did."*** From his office at the Carrington Co. on H
Street, Jens was flipping through the planner early Wednesday morning,
looking like he hadn't slept in days. He ***yawned repeatedly.***
There was a call from a man working on the headstone for his slain wife
and daughter. ***"Why don't you just go ahead and sandblast it, you
don't need me," Jens told the man.*** Then he scrawled a picture of the
old-fashioned monument on a piece of paper. It will say "Sund at the top
followed by lines from adopted daughter Regina's poem and parting words
from Jens.
***A little space has been left over if he decides to be buried there.
"Carole had left no instructions. I figured I was 35 years away from
figuring anything like this out," he said. "I thought we would scatter
the ashes somewhere on the ranch, but Gina wanted a headstone —
something she could look at."***
Carole had planned the fateful trip to Yosemite National Park two
months in advance. In mid-February she ***left a recent gift of pepper
spray in her car** and They picked up a flashy red rental car at the
airport.
The last time Jens talked to his wife was the day after Valentine's Day
when the final pictures of the smiley trio were taken.
Carole said they were planning to go through the park again, but had
concerns about ***construction at the entrance. The conversation lasted
less than four minutes.***
Jens doubts rumors that Juli met somebody on the Internet and told the
person they were staying at the Cedar Lodge in El Portal. Silvina and
the other kids also used the Internet a lot.
Jens said, the ***FBI took the computer, analyzed it and gave it back.
They also examined Juli's personal phone book and other things.***
They had five cars, all with cellular phones, combing the tourist-ridden
highways.
Since Jens said they were looking for cliffs and sharp turns... they
never found the charred car containing Carole and Silvina's bodies off a
logging road in Long Barn. Yet they were so close.
***Jens was on a road right below the brush-covered hill where Juli's
body was found overlooking Don Pedro Reservoir, west of the park, about
a month later.***
When asked what he thinks happened in the case that is being treated as
a multi-perpetrator kidnapping/carjacking by the FBI, Jens said simply:
***"Sure, the guys grabbed them and killed them.***
***They just killed them for a hundred bucks." He figures that's about
how much cash Carole had at the time. Her credit card wallet was found
on a Modesto street less than a week after the trio disappeared, but
none of the cards showed fresh charges.**
JoAnn
Bktcrow
>I think that's the most popular scenario (I'm still holding
> with "began 'somehow' at Cedar Lodge" - even if they
> were merely targeted there.) I'm nuts, though. ;)
>
> I don't think "cautious Carole" who's reported to have
> even known what to do in an emergency if threatened
> with such a thing, would be lured to pull over by anyone.
> But....one news report (SF Examiner, I believe) said that
> it was very snowy that day. If they skidded off the road,
> and the wrong person stopped to help......
>
>
I thought I heard they planned on visiting the park for a couple of hours in
the morning before they would head to stockton.
Anyway, the road from El Portal back into the park (and to Hwy120 which leads
directly to Moccasin) is in terrible shape (Road work). No pavement in places,
one lane only in two places and controlled by portable traffic lights to let
one direction of traffic through at a time on about 8 minute intervals. In good
weather this road is not very good. Plenty of opportunity for accidents or
sitting on a road without much traffic.
It seems to me that wherever they were taken, they ended up on hwy 120 to
moccasin and the scenic lookout first, then on up hwy 108 to Long Barn. Any
other route does not make any sense.
But then, none of this makes any sense to me at all. I see their pictures and
it makes my stomach hurt.
Bktc
Andy
posted some comments on it in a separate thread ("Sund Pelosso
4.11.95"). One small point is bothering me: the Eureka paper has
consistently written of "Juli Sund" *not* "Julie Sund." Perhaps I'm
wrong, but I suspect that this is the sort of thing that a paper based
in Eureka would get right. From now on, I'm going to stick with
"Juli."
On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:21:02 -0400 (EDT) (JoAnn) wrote:
>From the Times-Standard Online —
>
><http://www.times-standard.com/mainhed/docs/1999/april_1999/april11_1999/sund_eulogize.htm>
>
>As 2 eulogized, Sund talks of profound loss
[snip]
Andy interjects:
Here's a paragraph that I found very interesting. Clearly, Carole
knew about the "construction." Therefore, she also knew that, in
order to see Yosemite, she would have to get away before 8:00. (And
why was the conversation so short? Did Carole perhaps call Jens from
the restaurant rather than from the hotel room?)
>
>The last time Jens talked to his wife was the day after Valentine's Day
>when the final pictures of the smiley trio were taken.
>Carole said they were planning to go through the park again, but had
>concerns about ***construction at the entrance. The conversation lasted
>less than four minutes.***
Andy again interjects:
Could there be something to these "rumors" about an Internet
connection? Clearly, the FBI took those rumors at least somewhat
seriously.
>Jens doubts rumors that Juli met somebody on the Internet and told the
>person they were staying at the Cedar Lodge in El Portal. Silvina and
>the other kids also used the Internet a lot.
>
>Jens said, the ***FBI took the computer, analyzed it and gave it back.
>They also examined Juli's personal phone book and other things.***
[snip]
Once more, Andy interjects:
And here's the part that surprised me most: Jens is once again
implying that Carole was carrying not hundreds of dollars but merely
"a hundred bucks."
>***They just killed them for a hundred bucks." He figures that's about
>how much cash Carole had at the time. Her credit card wallet was found
>on a Modesto street less than a week after the trio disappeared, but
>none of the cards showed fresh charges.**
>
>JoAnn
Thank you, JoAnn, for having had the nerve to post the entire article.
Although I believe firmly in fair use, I'm always a little shy . . .
--Andy
fergu...@yahoo.com
JoAnn
^^^ I referred her to the crimes we suspect Larwick had a part in while
living in Long Barn.... a few years back a mother and child killed.
Unsolved. I called the Long Barn Lodge today but only got a recording...
~~~Did you ever find out their names or even a year that it happened?
JoAnn
JoAnn
 Maybe they needed to gas up that morning or they gassed up the night
before and ran into problems. They had to leave early, between 6:30 and
8:00 on the 16th. There are no gas stations in Yosemite (there once were
>Kris wrote:
    We've discussed gas before - and
wondered when they  bought it.  I'm assuming that they purchased
gas on the  14th before heading into Yosemite (I've even gone so far
 as to calculate the gas mileage on that particular model  of car
- and they should have had plenty to get them  back at least to
Modesto or Stockton.)  But....we don't  know when the last "gas
up" was.
>Patty wrote:
They couldn't go back 140 once in Yosemite on the 16th because the road
would be closed. They wouldn't know where the gas stations were on 120
and how far out of Yosemite. I don't know how late the El Portal Gas
Station stays open but maybe they didn't buy earlier.
140 was open President's weekend all the time. Maybe Carole found out it
was to be closed the next day and realized she needed gas. Maybe El
Portal gas station was closed and she had to go to Mariposa and was
hijacked on the way. just throwing it out there.
>Kris wrote:
     Thanks for throwing it out.  Now makes me wonder *if*
 the gas station at El Portal is another "suspect" site (at  least
for a "targeting".) Strange *did* used to work there  and was
friendly with the owner.
     It's known that the gas station owner in El Portal was
 questioned - I wonder if that's where they gassed up?  If they
gassed up on the 14th (Carole "always filled the  tank")....they had
plenty.
~~~One article stated that LE also asked the owner of the gas station
about another man that had worked there and recently left. I'll have to
look for it.
JoAnn
JoAnn
I'm glad to see, JoAnn, that somebody else noticed this article; I've
posted some comments on it in a separate thread ("Sund Pelosso
4.11.95"). One small point is bothering me: the Eureka paper has
consistently written of "Juli Sund" *not* "Julie Sund." Perhaps I'm
wrong, but I suspect that this is the sort of thing that a paper based
in Eureka would get right. From now on, I'm going to stick with "Juli."
~~~I can't cite my exact reference right this minute <G> but I read that
Juli (from Julianne- I'm not certain about how many n's it has) was
always spelled 'Juli' until some time recently when 'Juli' herself
wanted to start spelling it 'Julie'.
~~~~~~~~
On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:21:02 -0400 (EDT) (JoAnn) wrote:
From the Times-Standard Online —
<http://www.times-standard.com/mainhed/docs/1999/april_1999/april11_1999/sund_eulogize.htm>
As 2 eulogized, Sund talks of profound loss [snip]
Andy interjects:
Here's a paragraph that I found very interesting. Clearly, Carole knew
about the "construction." Therefore, she also knew that, in order to see
Yosemite, she would have to get away before 8:00. (And why was the
conversation so short? Did Carole perhaps call Jens from the restaurant
rather than from the hotel room?)
"The last time Jens talked to his wife was the day after Valentine's Day
when the final pictures of the smiley trio were taken. Carole said they
were planning to go through the park again, but had concerns about
***construction at the entrance. The conversation lasted less than four
minutes.*** "
Andy again interjects:
Could there be something to these "rumors" about an Internet connection?
Clearly, the FBI took those rumors at least somewhat seriously.
"Jens doubts rumors that Juli met somebody on the Internet and told the
person they were staying at the Cedar Lodge in El Portal. Silvina and
the other kids also used the Internet a lot.
Jens said, the ***FBI took the computer, analyzed it and gave it back.
They also examined Juli's personal phone book and other things.***"
~~~I wonder if this was before or after they realized Juli was separated
from the other two.
~~~~~~~~
[snip]
Once more, Andy interjects:
And here's the part that surprised me most: Jens is once again implying
that Carole was carrying not hundreds of dollars but merely "a hundred
bucks."
"***They just killed them for a hundred bucks." He figures that's about
how much cash Carole had at the time. Her credit card wallet was found
on a Modesto street less than a week after the trio disappeared, but
none of the cards showed fresh charges.**"
>Andy wrote:
Thank you, JoAnn, for having had the nerve to post the entire article.
Although I believe firmly in fair use, I'm always a little shy . . .
~~~No, no my dear Andy, there's plenty more of the article at the
paper's website. I just posted the excerpts I found telling.
JoAnn
--Andy
fergu...@yahoo.com
Gillam Kerley
>
> Maybe they needed to gas up that morning or they gassed up the night before
> and ran into problems.
Do we know *when* the Sund party made the appointment to meet a friend
in Stockton? The timeline shows:
----BEGIN EXCERPTS ----
Feb. 15 (last day confirmed alive):
Per Jenifer Joseph's ABCNEWS.COM story, "Carole Sund had talked to
her husband that day.
She told him the trio were headed back to Yosemite for another jaunt the
following morning for a few
hours before they were to catch a plane in San Francisco around 4 pm."
Feb 16:
Sund group does not show up to meet a neighbor from Eureka for 2pm
appointment in Stockton.
----END EXCERPT----
Several things don't add up. Why didn't Carole Sund tell her husband
about the Stockton appointment? Why was she meeting someone in Stockton
two hours before her plane was to leave San Francisco? (As someone else
pointed out, IIRC, they couldn't have made it to the airport in 2
hours.) Would they have had enough time for a meaningful jaunt in
Yosemite and still make it to Stockton in time? (Okay, the last
question shows my "not a morning person" bias.)
Could it be that Carole Sund made the Stockton appointment *after* she
talked to her husband, and decided to drive west to Stockton *instead*
of making another trip to Yosemite? As I look at my road atlas, if I
were driving from El Portal to Stockton, I would likely take 140 west to
49, 49 north to 120, and 120 west to the interstate.
That would put the Sund party on Hwy. 49/120, where the daughter's body
was found. (I really can't imagine the perpetrators initiating the
crime in a motel parking lot; it seems too risky.)
Frankly, this doesn't sound like a very sophisticated crime. Two
people, two guns, one car. Not much of a plan, probably improvised as
they went along. (Why, if there was a plan, were the bodies found in
two different locations?)
Once the Sunds are on Hwy. 49, the following scenario unfolds.
Crime Scene One. Somehow, the Sund party stops their car. Could be to
look at scenery, could be they were forced off the road. If they had
car trouble, it wasn't too severe, since their car made it to Crime
Scene Three, where it was burned.
Crime Scene Two. It has been suggested that the Sund party wouldn't
have stopped at the location where the daughter's body was found. If
true, that means they were intercepted earlier, and either (1) the
daughter was killed at Crime Scene One and dumped at Crime Scene Two, or
(2) they were forced to drive from Crime Scene One to Crime Scene Two,
where the daughter was killed. If the Sund party did stop at this
location, then Crime Scene One and Crime Scene Two are the same. It is
probably at this point that Mrs. Sund's wallet is taken, the two are
forced into the trunk, and the perpetrators begin to decide where to get
rid of the car.
Crime Scene Three. One perpetrator drives the Sund car to Crime Scene
Three, while the other follows. The car is burned there. (BTW, do we
know if the remains of the luggage were found in the burned car?)
From there, the two perpetrators head for the nearest city (Modesto),
where they can spend what they stole. They think using the credit cards
is too risky, and don't know anyone who will buy them, so they discard
the wallet and cards and keep the cash. (If they were smart -- or
thinking more clearly -- they'd have left the wallet in the car, IMO.)
I think the fact that the wallet and cards showed up in Modesto means
the perpetrators were panicking somewhat through this whole process, and
probably in a rush to get everything disposed of and escape. So,
instead of extracting cash from wallet at the crime scene, they took the
whole thing and sorted it out later. (I'd also think they probably took
the luggage, for the same reason, hoping they'd find something of value
later. But I could be wrong; the luggage might have burned.)
Anyhow, that's my scenario. We'll see how the evidence plays out.
GK
Andy
laid out an intriguing scenario (which I will not repeat in its
entirety):
[snip]
>
>I think the fact that the wallet and cards showed up in Modesto means
>the perpetrators were panicking somewhat through this whole process, and
>probably in a rush to get everything disposed of and escape.
There are aspects of your scenario that make a great deal of
sense--especially your suggestion that the Stockton visit resulted in
a sudden (and radical) revision of Carole's travel plans (though this
leaves the question of why Carole made no attempt to let Jens know
that she was modifying her itinerary).
But why did the perpetrators choose to leave the wallet in the middle
of a well-traveled Modesto intersection--an intersection that was
regularly used by students attending at least two different city
schools? If the perps had forgotten to burn the wallet along with the
car, why didn't they simply dump it in a garbage can somewhere--or in
a river, or in a field, or even in a back alley? Why dump it in a
place where it was almost certain to be discovered within a very short
time? In short, I'm still inclined to believe that the wallet was
placed in the intersection for reasons that were carefully
calculated--reasons that stemmed from a desire to keep the police busy
in Modesto while the perps covered their tracks.
It's possible, I admit, that the perps tossed the wallet in
haste--perhaps because they spotted a police car and thought that they
were in immediate danger of being pulled over and searched. But, in
this case, wouldn't they have drawn even more attention to themselves
by pausing to throw something out the window?
Some clarification about the intersection might help. Does anybody
know if there are traffic lights at the corner of Briggsmore and
Tully? (It looks as if there might be.) I ask this because I recall
reading, early on, about a car that, on the afternoon of Thursday,
February 18th, had been seen near this corner with its safety lights
flashing. That story seemed to suggest that this is not a corner at
which a car would ordinarily come to a prolonged stop.
Of course, if this is indeed (as it appears to be) a corner that
junior high and high school students regularly cross, one would assume
that there must be lights of some sort--lights that would regularly
force the traffic to stop, and that would thus regularly provide a
convenient (and inconspicuous) opportunity to drop something onto the
median. Since I've never been to Modesto, however, I have no way of
knowing.
Is anybody on ATC familiar with the intersection of Tully and
Briggsmore?
--Andy
fergu...@yahoo.com
"For Fergus rules the brazen cars,
And rules the shadows of the wood"--W.B. Yeats
Buttrfld8
with "began 'somehow' at Cedar Lodge" - even if they
were merely targeted there.) I'm nuts, though. ;)>
Not nuts: The FBI has" put it out" that "it" (or a "something") happened
near or at CL. I f they really do believe this, it's based on "evidence"
not yet disclosed to us. Why so firmly dismiss the post-CL sightings? Given
past mess ups and their caution in this case overall, they could be sure of
this one this time.
A dearth of info. re: trio's activities post-dinner. Could'nt these
be re-constructed based on condition of room--beds slept in or no ? showers
taken? If Carole drank cofee, little packs of instant in the morning? All we
get is : key left on chest of drawers, luggage not left, trio not seen past
dinner.
This taken together with the FBI- reported scenario that they
"dissapeared" sometime between after din and next morning leads me to believe
there's evidence at CL we haven't been told about. I think FBI thinks/knows
trio didn't leave CL under their own steam.
Possible scenarios--does an insider have a key to room, or slip in
when they leave door unlocked to go fetch their luggage? But why are perps
happening by? Trio targeted* before* CL ? Let's say BJS does talk to the *wrong
person* who high tails it up there. Or to the *right person,* a partner in
crime. Does BJS have access to a master key, or know some way in?
Or does the trio take a walk around CL after dinner and just happen
to run into a couple of psycho lurkers, who , like Bundy, deliberately go to
lodges, campuses, remote trails seeking prey?
The appearance of planning is this predatory behavior -- then, as
Kris speculated, organized attempts to cover it up after. Another possibility
mentioned here that grabs me-- robbery gone wrong--but what are robbers doing
at CL? Unless they live so close to the grounds they see gals walking
around, jewelry, purses-- or again, target earlier and elsewhere. But unless
robbers have reason to believe the trio have stuff of real value , why go to
all this trouble , drive all that way?
Guess: They were accosted after dinner. The idea was to sexually
abuse and kill the girls. As others have theorized, taking stuff could have
been incidental, an afterthought. The perps have kicked such an idea around
before and probably acted on it before. Trio happened to be there, and to be
vulnerable logistically. Either perps think CL could be good hunting grounds,
*or* at least one of the perps has reason to be on site already, calls the
other( or others) in to execute "plan X" cause "I got a line on some prey up
here." Perps are sexual predators ala Ng and Lake, but without the elaborate
a set-up,and are bit more random, maybe , as a "team", newer at this.
My half-baked theory only works if at least one of the perps has a
relationship to CL --lives v. near, works there, once worked there, regularly
visits someone who works there: visits a bar regularly, at CL or near.
Perp would have to * know* CL .
Lots of holes in this one; welcome any and all to put me straight. If not,
I'll just go on finding your posts interesting. It makes sense to me that the
deed was done at site where Juli found as has been speculated, but oh lord, I
just hate to think the mother and Silvina saw that murder, that any of them saw
each other harmed.
Moi
Buttrfld8
>>of two or more individuals with them and maybe at first it is
>>just casual but then it turns ugly. Julie tries to escape and she is
>>chased down and killed - either accidentally or by an overzealous
>>bad guy - or maybe during a sexual assault. Then the bad guys
>>realize they must get rid of the witnesses and load Carole and
>>Silvina into the trunk of the car, drive them to the spot where it
>>was ultimately found, ransack it for any valuables, torch it with
>>the pair inside, and leave.
>>glas
Good one! So believable somehow. I just hope not true, but I
suppose any* way* this happened was horrible.
Patty writes:
< Maybe they needed to gas up that morning or they gassed up the
<night before
<and ran into problems.
Only a partial quote. Rest of it full of good details. Yes,
the gas thing. I can see that. Might Carole have wanted to be sure she was
all set to go and therefore gassed up that night after din?
A question I have--why not take the key to the room if this is
in fact a fact? If nabbed in the room, then obviously not doing stuff like
gathering up keys etc. Or going such short distance from room, leaving door
open. The luggage thing comes up again. Or, the key was returned by someone
else, and this is another part of *the plan.* Moi
>
glas
news:29726-37...@newsd-174.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
| x-no-archive: yes
|
| glas: just viewed the atc website - and deleted same !!!
| IT SUCKS, but you know that !!!
|
| Thank you for your time and consideration:
| With GODS' LOVE Capt JOHN "V"
Gee CapAsshole, if your opinion mattered to me, that might actually hurt.
By the way, your nasty little e-mail was not appreciated. Don't waste your
time sending me anything else because I've set my inbox filter to delete
your putrid misspelled words of wisdom and hate off my server should you
choose to e-mail me again.
glas
alt.true-crime WebSite and FAQ can be found here -
http://www.geocities.com/~alttruecrime/
the keeper of the FAQ resides here -
http://www.donet.com/~glas/
The dumber people think you are,
The more surprised they'll be when you kill them
--- William Clayton
Maggie8097
>Do we know *when* the Sund party made the appointment to meet a friend
>in Stockton? The timeline shows:
>
>----BEGIN EXCERPTS ----
>
>Feb. 15 (last day confirmed alive):
> Per Jenifer Joseph's ABCNEWS.COM story, "Carole Sund had talked to
>her husband that day.
>She told him the trio were headed back to Yosemite for another jaunt the
>
>following morning for a few
>hours before they were to catch a plane in San Francisco around 4 pm."
>
>Feb 16:
> Sund group does not show up to meet a neighbor from Eureka for 2pm
>appointment in Stockton.
>
>----END EXCERPT----
>
>Several things don't add up. Why didn't Carole Sund tell her husband
>about the Stockton appointment?
***She did (I think). That's why he contacted the friend on the 17th from
Phoenix. When he found out that Carole hadn't met her for their appointment on
the 16th, he became really worried. I read one report that said the friend
contacted him, but that doesn't sound right--how would she have known where to
find him?
GK said:
Why was she meeting someone in Stockton
>
>two hours before her plane was to leave San Francisco? (As someone else
>
>pointed out, IIRC, they couldn't have made it to the airport in 2
>hours.) Would they have had enough time for a meaningful jaunt in
>Yosemite and still make it to Stockton in time? (Okay, the last
>question shows my "not a morning person" bias.)
***I strongly suspect the 4:00 flight time is in error. According to the news
stories, Jens arrived at the SF airport at around 10:30 pm and had to run to
make his connecting flight to Phoenix. It seems strange to me that the women
would be scheduled to arrive in SF at around 5 pm (assuming they were to leave
Modesto at 4) for a 10:45, or so, connecting flight (for Silvina). OTOH, maybe
they were all supposed to meet up in the SF airport for dinner and
Carole-the-planner wanted to make sure to allow time for flight delays that
might disrupt their travel plans.
I think another possibility is that the Stockton appointment was actually in
the morning--not at 2 pm. This would explain the women leaving El Porto and
heading away from Yosemite toward Stockton (possibly Jens was confused about
the morning plans--husbands have a habit of only half-listening to things they
think they already know and Carole had told him the previous evening that they
were headed into Yosemite on the morning of the 15th).
>I think the fact that the wallet and cards showed up in Modesto means
>the perpetrators were panicking somewhat through this whole process, and
>
>probably in a rush to get everything disposed of and escape. So,
>instead of extracting cash from wallet at the crime scene, they took the
>
>whole thing and sorted it out later. (I'd also think they probably took
>
>the luggage, for the same reason, hoping they'd find something of value
>
>later. But I could be wrong; the luggage might have burned.)
>
>Anyhow, that's my scenario. We'll see how the evidence plays out.
***Sounds good to me. It's almost exactly what I proposed just after Juli's
body was found.
Kris Baker
>Do we know *when* the Sund party made the appointment to meet
>a friend in Stockton? The timeline shows:
>----BEGIN EXCERPTS ----
>Feb. 15 (last day confirmed alive):
>Per Jenifer Joseph's ABCNEWS.COM story, "Carole Sund had
>talked to her husband that day. She told him the trio were
>headed back to Yosemite for another jaunt the following morning
>for a few hours before they were to catch a plane in San
>Francisco around 4 pm."
See below at *
>Feb 16:
>Sund group does not show up to meet a neighbor from Eureka for 2pm
>appointment in Stockton.
>----END EXCERPT----
Gilliam, back up to Feb 13 in the timeline; the appointment to
re-visit the University of Pacific at Stockton was made during
their first visit there (cheerleading competition.)
Also note that information shown in RED in the timeline (such
as 2pm for that appointment) hasn't be fully confirmed *or*
conflicts with other information.
>Several things don't add up. Why didn't Carole Sund tell her
>husband about the Stockton appointment? Why was she
>meeting someone in Stockton two hours before her plane was
>to leave San Francisco? (As someone else
>pointed out, IIRC, they couldn't have made it to the airport in 2
>hours.) Would they have had enough time for a meaningful jaunt in
>Yosemite and still make it to Stockton in time? (Okay, the last
>question shows my "not a morning person" bias.)
I worked on this yesterday, to clarify things. I found
confirmation (at least by Jens) that they planned to leave
the rental car in Modesto and fly to San Francisco.
After having found that piece of confirmation, I'm deleting
the mention of San Francisco from the Jenifer Joseph
quote that I'd put in the timeline to confirm that Jens had
talked to Carole.
*In this same report, Jenifer Joseph/ABCNEWS.COM states
that theSF flight was 4pm -- which is in direct conflict with
at least one other report:
Example - this one also from ABCNEWS.COM:
<http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/AP19990320_162.html>
Jens flight was five hours late, coming in at 10:45 -- that
would make his planned arrival around 5:45, not 4pm.
And...if *Carole's* flight was 4pm, that wouldn't work
either because she'd have left on the plane much earlier
than Jens arrived.
Sadly, I can't remember *one* news story that doesn't
conflict with another.
>Could it be that Carole Sund made the Stockton appointment *after* she
>talked to her husband, and decided to drive west to Stockton *instead*
>of making another trip to Yosemite? As I look at my road atlas, if I
>were driving from El Portal to Stockton, I would likely take 140 west to
>49, 49 north to 120, and 120 west to the interstate.
She'd made the appointment on the 13th, but I suspect that
the flight from Modesto to SF was a change in plans that may
have been part of Jens' confusion when he missed them at
the SF airport.
(snip)
Snipped scenario, but I think you're on the most popular track
here.
Kris Baker
>I'm glad to see, JoAnn, that somebody else noticed this article; I've
>posted some comments on it in a separate thread ("Sund Pelosso
>4.11.95"). One small point is bothering me: the Eureka paper has
>consistently written of "Juli Sund" *not* "Julie Sund." Perhaps I'm
>wrong, but I suspect that this is the sort of thing that a paper based
>in Eureka would get right. From now on, I'm going to stick with
>"Juli."
Andy - JoAnn has ALWAYS written "Juli" -- it has nothing to
do with that article or your discovery.
Kris Baker
>Kris writes: < I think that's the most popular scenario (I'm still
holding
>with "began 'somehow' at Cedar Lodge" - even if they
>were merely targeted there.) I'm nuts, though. ;)>
>Not nuts: The FBI has" put it out" that "it" (or a "something")
>happened near or at CL. I f they really do believe this, it's
>based on "evidence" not yet disclosed to us. Why so firmly
>dismiss the post-CL sightings? Given past mess ups and their
>caution in this case overall, they could be sure of this one this time.
That's all true - but even the FBI stated (after Juli's body
was found) that "the crime could have occurred anywhere
from El Portal outward." So...they did alter their own
thoughts.
>A dearth of info. re: trio's activities post-dinner. Could'nt these
>be re-constructed based on condition of room--beds slept in or no?
>showers taken? If Carole drank cofee, little packs of instant in
>the morning? All we get is : key left on chest of drawers,
>luggage not left, trio not seen past dinner.
We don't know if the room was cleaned, although I suspect
it was not. If you check the "questions" portion of the
web page, you'll see the answer to Question 6 (which
was provided to me via email from a very credible source
but which is *not* confirmed.)
It seems that during Jens early calls, he called Cedar Lodge
at least once. He had the desk clerk check the room to
see if they'd checked out - and *she* found the key on
the dresser as well as a bag containing t-shirts and
receipts - but nothing in disarray. This would have been after
11am on the 17th (when Jens says he first started making calls.)
That (at least to me) means that the room *had not been*
serviced by the housekeepers on the 16th.
>This taken together with the FBI- reported scenario that they
>"dissapeared" sometime between after din and next morning
>leads me to believe there's evidence at CL we haven't been told
>about. I think FBI thinks/knows trio didn't leave CL under their
>own steam.
This same emailer did tell me about two other things found
"odd" about the room, which wouldn't have been noticed during
a cursory check by the desk clerk, but were noted by the
investigators when they "combed" the room.
>Possible scenarios--does an insider have a key to room, or slip in
>when they leave door unlocked to go fetch their luggage? But why
>are perps happening by? Trio targeted* before* CL ? Let's say
>BJS does talk to the *wrong person* who high tails it up there.
>Or to the *right person,* a partner in crime. Does BJS have
>access to a master key, or know some way in?
BJS shouldn't have access to a master key. He works at
Cedar Lodge Restaurant, which is a completely separate
business from Cedar Lodge Motel. But...his girlfriend
Becky is a desk clerk at the motel.
>Or does the trio take a walk around CL after dinner and just happen
>to run into a couple of psycho lurkers, who , like Bundy, deliberately
>go to lodges, campuses, remote trails seeking prey?
To me, the logical scenario IF it began at Cedar Lodge is that
they were accosted/abducted while loading luggage into
the car. That could account for something having been
left in the room, perhaps indications that something happened
*in* the room, and also is one spot we *know* they'd have
been outside. That also accounts for "nothing found amiss"
in the room, as it's doubtful that predators would be so
careful to pack up *all the belongings* in the suitcases but
leave a package.
You and I are probably the only ones thinking similarly.
But that's OK.....if everyone agreed, we'd have no discussions.
Maggie8097
>>I'm glad to see, JoAnn, that somebody else noticed this article; I've
>>posted some comments on it in a separate thread ("Sund Pelosso
>>4.11.95"). One small point is bothering me: the Eureka paper has
>>consistently written of "Juli Sund" *not* "Julie Sund." Perhaps I'm
>>wrong, but I suspect that this is the sort of thing that a paper based
>>in Eureka would get right. From now on, I'm going to stick with
>>"Juli."
>
> Andy - JoAnn has ALWAYS written "Juli" -- it has nothing to
***I've always written "Juli" as well and it has nothing to do with Andy's
tiresome lectures about what she should be called. I just noticed early on
that the girl's name was Juliana and I figured Juli was the correct shortened
version of it.
KLBKRN
writes:
>glas: just viewed the atc website - and deleted same !!!
>IT SUCKS, but you know that !!!
>
>Thank you for your time and consideration:
>With GODS' LOVE Capt JOHN "V"
What's wrong CAP did she leave yor worthless ass out of it and your mad you
don't get your claim to fame like the JOE...
~ Katie< your neighbor hehe
KLBKRN
writes:
>"YOUR" WEB SITE DONE IN "OUR" NAME IS NOTHING BUT A SELF SERVING ENTITY
>TO YOU AND A SUCK UP AS A GROUPIE OF "famous" AUTHORS !!!
Ah we* were here WAYYYYYYY before you. You pathetic excuse for a quivering
old fool !!
And Have a Nice Day,
Your neighbor
Kris Baker
>>fergu...@yahoo.com (Andy) wrote:
>>>I'm glad to see, JoAnn, that somebody else noticed this article; I've
>>>posted some comments on it in a separate thread ("Sund Pelosso
>>>4.11.95"). One small point is bothering me: the Eureka paper has
>>>consistently written of "Juli Sund" *not* "Julie Sund." Perhaps I'm
>>>wrong, but I suspect that this is the sort of thing that a paper
based
>>>in Eureka would get right. From now on, I'm going to stick with
>>>"Juli."
>Kris said:
>> Andy - JoAnn has ALWAYS written "Juli" -- it has nothing to
>> do with that article or your discovery.
>***I've always written "Juli" as well and it has nothing to do with
>Andy's tiresome lectures about what she should be called.
>I just noticed early on that the girl's name was Juliana and I figured
>Juli was the correct shortened version of it.
>Maggie
Thank you for mentioning the lectures; I thought it was only
me who noted such chastisement (we're smart people and
can read - one mention would have been enough.) Like I've
pointed out, even the official web page says "Julie" - and
JoAnn mentions that Juliana preferred "Julie." I'm thinking
that Juli is most likely Jens' preference - but if he's begun to
state a preference to the reporters, I think it's logical to
follow that preference. At least until the next reporter
tells us that it should be "Julie" afterall (which will probably
occur in about 14.3 minutes, considering how the reports
conflict in this case.)
kkramer
area 10 yrs but her husband, Jack, has lived there 20 years. She couldn't
locate him for the names of the murder victims but she did tell me that
there is a Northfork Rd 3 miles east of Long Barn.
Sherry (atc poster) said mother and child murdered in North Fork. I suspect
it could be either place: souteast of Yosemite or in Long Barn. Kris said
near Long Barn, so I will contact Tuolumne Co Sheriff first. If that
doesn't work, I will check out Madera County.
Keith
JoAnn wrote in message <7217-371...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>...
kkramer
will continue to try for information from Union Democrat and realtors and
post office. Post office knows everything.
Keith
JoAnn wrote in message <20445-370...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net>...
From The Union Democrat Online:
This is from4/2/99 but it is interesting reading. They are gearing up
for a big trial.
<http://headlines.uniondemocrat.com/cgi-bin/news/story.pl?story=202+19990402
+1002>
State aid sought for rising costs of murder case
By ROBERT DORROH
The Union Democrat -With the likelihood of a multi-million-dollar court
trial looming over the murders of three Yosemite sightseers, Tuolumne
County may hire a lobbyist and seek special legislation to recover a
large chunk of its costs from the state. The county's cost to
investigate and eventually prosecute the case will escalate at a rapid
rate, Brent Wallace, county administrator, said. Trial costs will
include paying prosecutors, public defenders, and forensic, psychology
and other expert witnesses.
On April 13, Wallace said, he will ask Tuolumne County supervisors to
spend up to $6,000 this fiscal year to hire a lobbyist to coordinate the
county's recovery-cost efforts at the state level.
Also, Wallace has talked with State Sen. Dick Monteith, R-Modesto, and
will talk with Assemblyman George House, R-Hughson, about possible
special legislation to get state reimbursement for county costs. The
county is also responsible for incarceration and court costs if a change
of venue is granted and the trial is held outside the county.
JoAnn
Andy
>I referred her to the crimes we suspect Larwick had a part in
>while living in Long Barn.... a few years back a mother and child
>killed. Unsolved. I called the Long Barn Lodge today but only
>got a recording...
>~~~Did you ever find out their names or even a year that it happened?
The _Fresno Bee_ ran a story on these murders back in April of 1995
Monday, HOME EDITION. The killings occurred on April 11, 1994. Let
me quote some of the more pertinent paragraphs from the _Fresno Bee_
article:
Slayings of mother, child in their North Fork home still mystery
BYLINE: Charles Mccarthy, The Fresno Bee
April 10, 1995 Monday, HOME EDITION
DATELINE: NORTH FORK
A year after Ken Keller returned from work to his home among the pine
and oak trees and called 911 to report finding his wife and daughter
fatally shot, his recorded plea for information remains on a
still-active hot line.
Madera County Sheriff's deputies said last week that the April 11,
1994 killings of Keller's wife, Kimberly, 38, and their 2-year-old
daughter Katherine Elizabeth, remain under investigation.
"Everybody is a suspect until they're cleared," said sheriff's Sgt.
Tommy Tomlinson last week. "At this point in time, we don't feel we
have enough evidence to make an arrest and bring anybody to court on a
charge of murder."
[SNIP]
Officials said they are doing what they can.
"There are leads that are still being followed," Tomlinson said.
At the time of the murders, the Keller family lived alone in the home,
on Pine Tree Lane in a quiet rural neighborhood called Leisure Acres.
Ken Keller was at work as a Madera County employee. A 17-year-old
stepson had moved out a few weeks before the killings, sheriff's
investigators said.
[SNIP]
Even with the passing of time, police have revealed little about the
slayings. Investigators haven't named either suspects or witnesses, if
any.
Bradford said last week that Madera County investigators had given the
17-year-old stepson a lie detector test, and that he had been ruled
out as a suspect and was now in Georgia.
[SNIP]
Tomlinson confirmed that the stepson had been polygraphed, but would
not say who else, if anyone, had been tested.
He would not disclose the results.
[SNIP]
It is Ken Keller's voice on the hot line, which seeks information
leading to the arrest of the killer or killers.
"Thank you for all your help," Keller says at the end of the recorded
message.
The hot line number is 683-1327.
Revisiting the Headlines is a new feature that looks back at events
and people in the local news. To suggest an idea, write or fax: The
Fresno Bee, c/o Revisiting the Headlines, 1626 E St., Fresno, CA
93786, 441-6436 (fax).
kkramer
Keith
Andy wrote in message <373b3689....@news.whitman.edu>...
Bktcrow
>GK said:
>>Could it be that Carole Sund made the Stockton appointment *after* she
>>talked to her husband, and decided to drive west to Stockton *instead*
>>of making another trip to Yosemite? As I look at my road atlas, if I
>>were driving from El Portal to Stockton, I would likely take 140 west to
>>
>>49, 49 north to 120, and 120 west to the interstate.
>>
>>That would put the Sund party on Hwy. 49/120, where the daughter's body
>>
>>was found. (I really can't imagine the perpetrators initiating the
>>crime in a motel parking lot; it seems too risky.)
If I were driving from El Portal to Stockton, I would head toward Yosemite and
take hwy 120 which leads directly to where the daughter's body was found (Why
go south to arrive north). It also leads to 108, with Long Barn to the east and
the wallet insert to the west about 2 mi. off 108 when your heading to 99.
I don't think the location of the wallet insert means a thing. Whoever dropped
it was going to get on 99, go north, and not look back.
If someone (Clay) tried to use cards from it, it just shows that crooks have
crooked friends (L).
The FBI doesn't have a thing to lead to the perps.
I don't see this great PLAN in this crime.
It looks like a spur of the moment thing with a couple of idiots trying to
cover it up quick.
Then in a hurry to get our of there, they leave the first body with all of it's
trace evidence (they had no idea when it would be discovered),
and then decide to burn the car to destroy any evidence there (they felt they
had more time, who's going to notice the smoke?), but then they leave evidence
laying around outside the car. Yea, that's smart.
The sad thing is, as stupid as they are, they will probably not be caught,
unless they can't keep their mouths shut.
taco
or one of the victims have thrown out the wallet hoping to leave a clue?
taco
Gillam Kerley
> But why did the perpetrators choose to leave the wallet in the middle
> of a well-traveled Modesto intersection--an intersection that was
> regularly used by students attending at least two different city
> schools? If the perps had forgotten to burn the wallet along with the
> car, why didn't they simply dump it in a garbage can somewhere--or in
> a river, or in a field, or even in a back alley? Why dump it in a
> place where it was almost certain to be discovered within a very short
> time? In short, I'm still inclined to believe that the wallet was
> placed in the intersection for reasons that were carefully
> calculated--reasons that stemmed from a desire to keep the police busy
> in Modesto while the perps covered their tracks.
It could be that the perpetators were in Modesto when they pulled the
cash out of the wallet, one of them panics over the possibility that the
ID will be incriminating, and they toss it at the first opportunity.
Or they may simply have been trying to direct attention away from the
locations where the bodies were dumped.
GK
Gillam Kerley
> A dearth of info. re: trio's activities post-dinner. Could'nt these
> be re-constructed based on condition of room--beds slept in or no ? showers
> taken? If Carole drank cofee, little packs of instant in the morning? All we
> get is : key left on chest of drawers, luggage not left, trio not seen past
> dinner.
It was mentioned elsewhere that Carole always returned the key to the
front desk. I do that too, but I have stayed in at least one motel
where a sign in the room said I should leave my key in the room. Does
anyone know what the Lodge's policies/preferences are?
GK
Gillam Kerley
>
> >GK said:
> >>Could it be that Carole Sund made the Stockton appointment *after* she
> >>talked to her husband, and decided to drive west to Stockton *instead*
> >>of making another trip to Yosemite? As I look at my road atlas, if I
> >>were driving from El Portal to Stockton, I would likely take 140 west to
> >>
> >>49, 49 north to 120, and 120 west to the interstate.
> >>
> >>That would put the Sund party on Hwy. 49/120, where the daughter's body
> >>
> >>was found. (I really can't imagine the perpetrators initiating the
> >>crime in a motel parking lot; it seems too risky.)
>
> take hwy 120 which leads directly to where the daughter's body was found (Why
> go south to arrive north).
Didn't some say that Hwy. 140 from El Portal into Yosemite was a mess
with construction and delays? They would have known this from the
previous day's trip into Yosemite. In any case, it doesn't matter, both
your route and mine lead to the place where Jodi's body was found.
GK
Kris Baker
>leave a clue?
>taco
Hi, taco - We discussed this quite awhile ago, and I think
most of us thought it *could* have happened. But.....thoughts
about it centered on the date the wallet was found (3-4
days after the abduction.) That would mean that one or
more perps was driving around that long, with one or more
victims under control - and had not taken her/their
possessions yet.
Based on what we've learned, almost anything is possible.
But that wallet was found in the median strip of a busy
thoroughfare (making the chances of it having laid there
very long, very slight.)
glas
| x-no-archive: yes
|
| glas: Let me ask you a serious question:
| WHY DO "YOU PEOPLE" LIE SO MUCH,
| JUST FOR THE SAKE OF THE LIE ???
|
| "YOUR" WEB SITE DONE IN "OUR" NAME IS NOTHING BUT A SELF SERVING ENTITY
| LITTLE KIDS PICTURES IN A "crime" WEB SITE IS REALLY FUCKING INTELLIGENT
| - DON'T YOU KNOW nuterstein TYPES READ THOSE KINDS OF WEB SITES!!!
| THEREFORE IT SUCKS !!!
Are you really this stupid? Has that Ripple done so much damage to your
brain that you don't know what you are saying? There are no pictures of
children on the True Crime website. There is a picture of a child on my
personal fan club page - the child is me at age 1 1/2. Drunken idiot.
As for your little problem with True Crime authors, I'd say you are in the
wrong newsgroup, asshole, if you have a problem with them. I do admire them,
they write the books that have given me many hours of pleasure because I
love to read about True Crime. Naturally, I already knew you were in the
wrong newsgroup, numbnuts, but then again I don't know where you would fit
in. Perhaps alt.asshole ?
| I "e" MAILED THE AUTHOR OF THE WEB SITE, WHOM ASKED FOR COMMENTS !!!
| I POSTED TO "glas"
|
| I WILL NEVER "e" MAIL YOU AGAIN - BUT I JUST HAVE WITH A MESSAGE THAT
| SAYS, "I BET YOU DIDN'T" !!! AND, OF COURSE, I WAS RIGHT !!! YOU DID NOT
| "FILTER" MY ADDY - DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW TO DO IT ???
|
| SO WHY LIE, JUST FOR THE SAKE OF THE LIE ???
Just because you use lame software for you web adventures that doesn't mean
that everyone else does, dumbass.
And I wouldn't bother telling you a lie. You are such an insignificant and
spineless little worm with nothing better to do than troll. No family, no
life, no brain, barely human. And not even an amusing troll at that, just a
jerk.
KLBKRN
writes:
> "YOUR" WEB SITE DONE IN "OUR" NAME IS NOTHING BUT A SELF SERVING ENTITY
>| TO YOU AND A SUCK UP AS A GROUPIE OF "famous" AUTHORS !!! AND, PUTTING
>| LITTLE KIDS PICTURES IN A "crime" WEB SITE IS REALLY FUCKING INTELLIGENT
>| - DON'T YOU KNOW nuterstein TYPES READ THOSE KINDS OF WEB SITES!!!
>| THEREFORE IT SUCKS !!!
>
>Are you really this stupid? Has that Ripple done so much damage to your
>brain that you don't know what you are saying? There are no pictures of
>children on the True Crime website. There is a picture of a child on my
>personal fan club page - the child is me at age 1 1/2. Drunken idiot.
Yes, he is that stupid Glas...I think he got into the gene pool when
the lifeguard
wasn't looking. :-)
<<naturally, I already knew you were in the
wrong newsgroup, numbnuts, but then again I don't know where you would fit
in. Perhaps alt.asshole ?>>
good place for CAPshole , but you''ll need to type in the entire URL
for him or he'll never get there.
~ Katie
Formica63
>> "YOUR" WEB SITE DONE IN "OUR" >> NAME IS ...
Well, I'd like to step in for a moment to say thanks to glas for putting
together the website. It's very well done, and it will be good to have an
updated FAQ as well.
Thanks for all your time and effort.
Formica
Kris Baker
>Buttrfld8 wrote:
No - but according to the Times-Standard "guests are often
gone long before the front desk opens."
We do know that the road *into* Yosemite was scheduled to
open only from 6:30am - 8am on the morning of the 16th.
Patsy had expressed concern to Jens (in the phone call the
previous evening) about it. It's possible that, in this instance,
they did have to leave the key, as they were attempting to
leave before the front desk opened.
guppy99
Formica63 wrote...
>
>
>Formica
I checked the a.t-c website out and you have another
two thumbs up. I just love the look.
guppy
glas
Thanks to you both. It has been a much bigger undertaking than I had
imagined but I'm pretty pleased with the way it's coming along and I am
enjoying working on it. Anyone that hasn't visited the site in a while will
be surprised as it is going through a major face-lift. More links have been
added and the entire layout and design has been changed.
ChevreTroi
writes:
>| >Well, I'd like to step in for a moment to say thanks to glas for putting
>| >together the website. It's very well done, and it will be good to have
>an
>| >updated FAQ as well.
>| >Thanks for all your time and effort.
>|
>| >
>| >
>| >Formica
>|
>| I checked the a.t-c website out and you have another
>| two thumbs up. I just love the look.
>|
>| guppy
>
>
>Thanks to you both. It has been a much bigger undertaking than I had
>imagined but I'm pretty pleased with the way it's coming along and I am
>enjoying working on it. Anyone that hasn't visited the site in a while will
>be surprised as it is going through a major face-lift. More links have been
>added and the entire layout and design has been changed.
>
>glas
>alt.true-crime WebSite and FAQ can be found here -
>http://www.geocities.com/~alttruecrime/
>
>the keeper of the FAQ resides here -
>http://www.donet.com/~glas/
>
I just have to add to the compliments. A most excellent page(s) Glas!
Love the layout and graphics....and of course the information.
I am amazed at the talent on this group.
Chev.
P.S. would you like to design a page for a ballet school in Oklahoma????<g>
ChevreTrois