OT-Where is Sunil Eappen from?
maryanne kehoe
He looks like he is from India, Pakistan or one of those countries in
that area.
Does anyone know from where?
Maryanne.
glas
>maryanne kehoe wrote ...
>He looks like he is from India, Pakistan or one of those countries in
>that area.
>Does anyone know from where?
I didn't say anything when this question was first asked, but now that it
keeps popping up, I'd like to know what it has to do with anything?
glas
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A good friend will help you move....
A REAL friend will help you move a body : )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bored? Try this...
http://www.interaxs.net/pub/glas/
Maryanne.
Martha Sprowles
glas wrote:
>
> >maryanne kehoe wrote ...
>
> >He looks like he is from India, Pakistan or one of those countries in
> >that area.
>
> >Does anyone know from where?
>
> I didn't say anything when this question was first asked, but now that it
> keeps popping up, I'd like to know what it has to do with anything?
>
> glas
>
Not much, IMHO, but I'd like to go on record as saying I find him very
attractive.
Martha
TBrightman
Mr. Eappen is from India.
McGuirk1
India
GLC1173
Glas quoted Maryanne:
>>He looks like he is from India, Pakistan or one of those >>countries in
>>that area.
>>Does anyone know from where?
and replied:
>>>I didn't say anything when this question was first asked, >>>but now that it
>>>keeps popping up, I'd like to know what it has to do with >>>anything?
"Cultural relativity" defenses are *common* in child abuse and spouse abuse
cases involving Third World-born people in the U.S.
Many - if not most - Third World societies have very different ideas from
American law of what is accepted domestic behavior, particularly if the perp
is the husband or father. One Indochinese facing trial near here openly
defended his assault-on-female (wife) charge on the basis that his dragging
his wife behind his car for a third of a mile to punish her "disobedience"
would have been accepted in his homeland; the judge gave him a suspended
sentence!
glas
GLC1173 wrote in message <19971115190...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
I still assert that it has absolutely no bearing on this case. Regardless
of what the differences in cultures. The Eappen's are both American's and I
have not seen any evidence of them making race an issue in this situation.
The only reason for anyone to do so is to try and paint some sort of
extenuating circumstances to justify one behaviour or another. I didn't
agree when Louise's nationality was brought into this mix, and I further
disagree with Mr. Eappen's nationality being introduced. Neither one has
anything to do with this story.
glas
Elizabeth Reid Steere
glas wrote:
>
>>maryanne kehoe wrote ...
>>
>>in that area.
>>
>>Does anyone know from where?
>
>that it keeps popping up, I'd like to know what it has to do with
>anything?
It doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with the case, but perhaps
maryanne was just curious. Anyhow, Sunil Eappen was born and raised in
Chicago. His parents were born in India and emigrated to the US some time
before Sunil's birth.
Elizabeth Reid Steere.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Maggie8097
Maryanne wrote:
He looks like he is from India, Pakistan or one of those countries in
that area.
Does anyone know from where?
***He was born in the U.S. of Indian parents.
Maggie
"We're having some fun now." --S. Martin and D. Ackroyd
Terry Hallinan
glc...@aol.com (GLC1173) wrote:
>Glas quoted Maryanne:
>>>He looks like he is from India, Pakistan or one of those >>countries in
>>>that area.
>>>Does anyone know from where?
>and replied:
>>>>I didn't say anything when this question was first asked, >>>but now that it
>>>>keeps popping up, I'd like to know what it has to do with >>>anything?
> "Cultural relativity" defenses are *common* in child abuse and spouse abuse
> cases involving Third World-born people in the U.S.
> Many - if not most - Third World societies have very different ideas from
> American law of what is accepted domestic behavior, particularly if the perp
> is the husband or father. One Indochinese facing trial near here openly
> defended his assault-on-female (wife) charge on the basis that his dragging
> his wife behind his car for a third of a mile to punish her "disobedience"
> would have been accepted in his homeland; the judge gave him a suspended
> sentence!
Indochinese, huh? That encompasses vastly differing groups of people
as well as as three countries. I would guess the majority of people
in Laos still do not know that they are Laotians.
Among certain groups a perfectly acceptable "courtship by capture" is
considered rape by American law.
Sunil is an American.
Satisfied?
Best, Terry
"Christian - One who believes the New Testament is a divinely
inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his
neighbor" - The Devil's Dictionary
ImNot911
>Maryanne wrote:
>He looks like he is from India, Pakistan or one of those countries in that
area.
>Does anyone know from where?
>
>Maggie
>
resentment toward her employers. And anyone who says such an attitude does
not exist is either ignorant or lying.
JoAnn
glas
ImNot911 wrote in message <19971116043...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>>
>Of course the anti-Indian attitude in England was not a factor in Louise's
> resentment toward her employers. And anyone who says such an attitude
does
> not exist is either ignorant or lying.
That's ridiculous JoAnn. Why would she have taken the job in the first
place if this were true? Surely she knew before she got hired on?
PattyC4303
In article <64l3ch$h...@ns2.borg.com>, hall...@borg.com (Terry Hallinan)
writes:
>Sunil is an American.
>
>Satisfied?
>
>
>Best, Terry
Sort of what I was thinking.... He is not *from* Inida if born in
America. Hell, my ancestors were born in other countries also. And I
believe I am *from* the USA.
PattyC
William Gaines
You may think that Dr., Sunil Eappen's race is logically related to the
case, if you think there is anything logical about the alternate theory.
(See the initiating post to the thread, "Alternate theory, au pair
Woodward". Also see my post of today, "CHALLENGE TO WOODWARD CASE FANS".
)
If, as the alternate theory goes, the Eappens medicated Matty to hide his
wrist, and/or skull injuries, there has to be a reason why they thought
they had to hide it.
Child abuse is a constitution-be-damned and scary legal area because of
the emotional tendency that suspects are considered guilty until proven
innocent. Fear of this could be one reason why they decided to hide the
injury(ies).
Further, if there is racial or national-origin prejudice against one,
that is another reason for one to avoid suspicion, thus a reason to hide
the injury(ies). Sunil and his wife may have experienced prejudice in the
USA, or heard of it, perhaps from others of similar decendency.
Further, the Drs. Eappen are a racially mixed couple. This, too, may have
caused them to fear prejudice.
Further, Sunil's parents may have been even more likely to have
experienced or heard of prejudice in the USA, because Sunil's parents
arrived in the USA during an earlier era in USA racial history. Thus,
they may have raised Sunil to beware of prejudice.
Further, India was no so long ago a colony of Great Briton. Sunil's
parents, or grandparents, may actually have lived under the oppression
and exploitation of white conquerors.
Further, India has a caste system. Sunil's parents may have been raised
to be more racially conscious than they would have been had they been
raised in a non-caste system.
Further, the Eappens have on several occasions visited Sunil's family in
India. There, they may have been directly exposed to attitudes residual
to recent rebellion against the (white) English. And they may have heard
of atrocities and other injustices committed by whites - heard from those
who had first hand experience.
Do any of you have any information about Sunil's family history in India?
The Eappens may have *believed* that there is, in the USA, a prejudicial
tendency to believe that the darker your skin, the more likely you are to
abuse a baby. ( I am not saying that that is so, or that there is
such a prejudice, or that I have it, or that you do.)
Note too, Matty's skin is lighter than Sunil's (from, I presume, his
genes being combined with those of his white wife, Deborah). The Eappens
may also have *believed* that there is a prejudicial tendency for white
society to become more angry and more punitive if a darker skinned person
has injured a lighter skinned person, than if the skin colors are equal,
or if a lighter skinned person has injured a darker skinned person. Again,
I am not discussing what is so, or should be so, only what the Eappens
may have believed.
The issue I am raising is not: Should there or would there actually have
been prejudice had they taken Matty in to be treated, instead of, as the
theory goes, medicating Matty themselves? But instead, Did the Eappens
believe there would have been?
State-of-mind can be a legal issue at trial, and appeal. I think that the
Eappens history, and statements, in re racial prejudice experiences and
training is relevant to their state-of-mind.
Do any of you have any information in re any prejudicial experiences of
any of the parties involved, or any statements, in re, by any of the
parties; in the USA or in India?
Will
Martha Sprowles
glas wrote:
>
> ImNot911 wrote in message <19971116043...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> >>
> >Of course the anti-Indian attitude in England was not a factor in Louise's
> > resentment toward her employers. And anyone who says such an attitude
> does
> > not exist is either ignorant or lying.
>
> That's ridiculous JoAnn. Why would she have taken the job in the first
> place if this were true? Surely she knew before she got hired on?
>
> glas
Well, which is it, glas? Ignorance or lying? Your not thinking right.
glas
Martha Sprowles wrote ...
It would definitely be ignorance as to how this troll bitch mangaes to
figure out how to even turn her computer on everyday, let alone actually go
on-line. Oh that's right...she's one of those AOL'ers eh? We can only hope
that her 50hours run out soon.
Martha Sprowles
glas wrote:
>
> Martha Sprowles wrote ...
> >glas wrote:
> >>
> >> ImNot911 wrote in message
> <19971116043...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> >> >>
> >> >Of course the anti-Indian attitude in England was not a factor in
> Louise's
> >> > resentment toward her employers. And anyone who says such an attitude
> >> does
> >> > not exist is either ignorant or lying.
> >>
> >> That's ridiculous JoAnn. Why would she have taken the job in the first
> >> place if this were true? Surely she knew before she got hired on?
> >>
> >> glas
> >
> >Well, which is it, glas? Ignorance or lying? Your not thinking right.
>
> It would definitely be ignorance as to how this troll bitch mangaes to
> figure out how to even turn her computer on everyday, let alone actually go
> on-line. Oh that's right...she's one of those AOL'ers eh? We can only hope
> that her 50hours run out soon.
>
> glas
god, glas. you fracture me.
Elizabeth Reid Steere
<sarcasm>
Personally, I think it's blatantly obvious that the only racial/cultural
prejudice involved in this case was Anglophobia directed at Louise
Woodward. Doesn't everyone know that Bostonians are constantly frothing at
the mouth with the desire to hang, draw and quarter a Britisher due to
passions unexpressed since the Boston Tea Party?
</sarcasm>
Terry Hallinan
ma...@netcom.com (Maya Keshavan) wrote:
>William Gaines (TLD...@prodigy.com) speculated :
-
>: Do any of you have any information about Sunil's family history in India?
>Do YOU? Do you have the tiniest clue as to what you are blathering
>about? Have you some sort of ties to India? Have ever spoken to
>an Indian? Have you eaten at an Indian restaurant?
We sometimes eat at the Oneida Indian casino restaurant. I wonder if
that qualifies?
Thanks, Maya, for one of the greatest posts ever.
<snip>
>: The Eappens may have *believed* that there is, in the USA, a prejudicial
>: tendency to believe that the darker your skin, the more likely you are to
>: abuse a baby. ( I am not saying that that is so, or that there is
>: such a prejudice, or that I have it, or that you do.)
>What the beejeebies are you talking about? That is the most
>bizarre comment I have read on USENET. (I have been around it since
>1980.)
>: Note too, Matty's skin is lighter than Sunil's (from, I presume, his
>: genes being combined with those of his white wife, Deborah). The Eappens
>GADS!! DO YOU THINK? Gentics is MAGIC!
>: I am not discussing what is so, or should be so, only what the Eappens
>: may have believed.
>What makes you able to even begin to imagine how the Eappens might think?
>: The issue I am raising is not: Should there or would there actually have
>: been prejudice had they taken Matty in to be treated, instead of, as the
>: theory goes, medicating Matty themselves? But instead, Did the Eappens
>: believe there would have been?
>THESE PEOPLE ARE DOCTORS. Upper class people do not face the
>sort of prejudice you seem to believe exists towards Indians.
>I, being of Indian origin, don't believe we face even a percentage
>of what the black community faces. You belittle the real problems
>of racism with your rampant speculation.
>: Do any of you have any information in re any prejudicial experiences of
>: any of the parties involved, or any statements, in re, by any of the
>: parties; in the USA or in India?
>You obviously don't. I grew up in Massachusetts, where these people
>live. Even back in the early 70s, when an Indian face was not
>common, my indian friends and I NEVER experienced your odd perceived
>prejudice.
>Regards,
>Maya
>--
>Maya Keshavan
>ma...@netcom.com
Pat Winstanley
In article <346F31...@erols.com>, Martha Sprowles
<spro...@erols.com> writes
>glas wrote:
>>
>> ImNot911 wrote in message <19971116043...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>> >>
>> >Of course the anti-Indian attitude in England was not a factor in Louise's
>> > resentment toward her employers. And anyone who says such an attitude
>> does
>> > not exist is either ignorant or lying.
>>
>> That's ridiculous JoAnn. Why would she have taken the job in the first
>> place if this were true? Surely she knew before she got hired on?
>>
>> glas
>
>Well, which is it, glas? Ignorance or lying? Your not thinking right.
It probably simply made no difference to Louise what skin colours the
family possessed. Some people in this country are colour prejudiced (but
there isn't an "anti-Indian" attitude as such), but by no means all, or
even most. There's no reason to suppose Louise is, in fact every reason
to suppose she isn't since she took the position having met the Eappens.
As for cultural differences (mentioned in another message) I'd think
that any cultural difference problems from Sunil's Indian ancestry would
be dwarfed by the huge cultural difference Loiuse would have been coping
with already - US v Britain!
Pat Winstanley
http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html
MSLU123
>I still assert that it has absolutely no bearing on this case. Regardless
>of what the differences in cultures. The Eappen's are both American's and I
>have not seen any evidence of them making race an issue in this situation.
>The only reason for anyone to do so is to try and paint some sort of
>extenuating circumstances to justify one behaviour or another. I didn't
>agree when Louise's nationality was brought into this mix, and I further
>disagree with Mr. Eappen's nationality being introduced. Neither one has
>anything to do with this story.
>
>glas
I think we are allowedto be curious.
sch...@mindnospring.com
On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:25:27 -0800, margot sheehan
<galle...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>glas wrote: <snip>
>
>
>> I still assert that it has absolutely no bearing on this case. Regardlessof
>> what the differences in cultures. The Eappen's are both American's
>
>Ummm, meaning what? That they both carry US passports? Anybody can get one. Is
>that what being 'American' comes down to nowadays? I guess so.
>
Oh Margot, have you met Natalia ?
-Sal
K. Rasch
BRAVO.....
krasch
Maya Keshavan wrote:
>
> William Gaines (TLD...@prodigy.com) speculated :
>
> : Further, if there is racial or national-origin prejudice against one,
>
> Is there a racial prejudice against Indians in the USA? Interesting.
> Being of Indian origin myself, born and raised in New England, I
> never noticed. Boy, color me surprised (no pun intended...much.)
>
> : the injury(ies). Sunil and his wife may have experienced prejudice in the
> : USA, or heard of it, perhaps from others of similar decendency.
>
> Hmm. Guess us Indians have been blind. Thanks for pointing out
> our oppression, here in the land of the free and the home of the
> brave. I don't know HOW I missed it.
>
> : Further, the Drs. Eappen are a racially mixed couple. This, too, may have
> : caused them to fear prejudice.
>
> Geez. Again, you teach me. My white husband and I are going to
> have to be more aware. I better warn my sister and her white husband
> too.
>
> : Further, Sunil's parents may have been even more likely to have
> : experienced or heard of prejudice in the USA, because Sunil's parents
> : arrived in the USA during an earlier era in USA racial history. Thus,
>
> Oh, sort of like MY parents. Back before CIVIL RIGHTS. Funny,
> mom and dad never had a concern about this, although they did
> stay away from the south.
>
> : they may have raised Sunil to beware of prejudice.
>
> GOLLLY, My parents obviously didn't raise me right. Neither
> did any of my Indo-American friends' parents. We were blissfully
> ignorant. Althogh the Hare Krishnas did concern us a tad.
>
> : Further, India was no so long ago a colony of Great Briton. Sunil's
> : parents, or grandparents, may actually have lived under the oppression
> : and exploitation of white conquerors.
>
> Those dang WHITE CONQUERORS! Opressing and exploiting us. My
> mother did ask the guard at the Tower of London if she could have
> the Hope Diamond, as it was stolen from India. She graciously offered
> to take possession, and alleviate any WHITE guilt that might exist.
>
> He didn't take her up on it.
>
> : Further, India has a caste system. Sunil's parents may have been raised
> : to be more racially conscious than they would have been had they been
> : raised in a non-caste system.
>
> WOW. You must be a EXPERT on India and her society. I only have
> my many many years of visiting the country and mingling with the people
> to my credit. I really need to get my eyes checked, I missed this.
>
> BTW, where do you suggest a non-caste system exists? Surely not
> in this country? Have you identified a pocket of civilization somewhere
> that doesn't have some sort of class system?
>
> : Further, the Eappens have on several occasions visited Sunil's family in
> : India. There, they may have been directly exposed to attitudes residual
> : to recent rebellion against the (white) English. And they may have heard
>
> WHAT? Again, I must have been in a coma. I have missed the RECENT
> rebellion? What is even stranger is I just came back from India,
> with my mom, my WHITE man, my sister and her WHITE man. Nobody
> harassed them, or told them to give them their country back.
>
> : of atrocities and other injustices committed by whites - heard from those
> : who had first hand experience.
>
> Those EVIL white people.
>
> : Do any of you have any information about Sunil's family history in India?
>
> Do YOU? Do you have the tiniest clue as to what you are blathering
> about? Have you some sort of ties to India? Have ever spoken to
> an Indian? Have you eaten at an Indian restaurant?
>
Kay Martin
Maya Keshavan wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Dear [ ] Sir, [ ] AOLer, [ ] Crybaby,
> [ ] Spammer, [ ] Ma'm, [ ] Pervert,
> [ ] Loudmouth, [ ] Bore, [ ] Kid,
> [ ] Vegan, [X] Clueless, [ ] Genius,
> [ ] Troll, [X] Idiot, [ ] Webster,
>
ROFL! Your _good_, Maya!
Kay
William Gaines
I (Will Gaines) am aware that for some, the topic of race is an
uncomfortable topic. If that is you, you may prefer skip
this entire discussion.
I maintain that the state of mind of the Eappens is a part
of People v Woodward, and that that state may have been
affected by the Eappens' experience and training in re
racism, and is therefore a legitimate and significant area
of inquiry in any future trial, on appeal, in the media, and
on this newsgroup.
For those of you who are interested in India culture in
either the USA or India, here are some sites, some with
links.
www.littleindia.com
www.india.bgsu.edu
alt.india-progressive (a newsgroup)
alt.hindu (a newsgroup)
For those of you who are interested researching racism in
the USA in re persons of Indian descent, or in racism or the
caste system in India, run a search on Alta Vista using
parameters (+India +racism +"United States"). And (+India
+caste), and similar. There are thousands of hits.
As one reads the titles of some of the hits, or reads the
citations themselves, the answer as to whether there is or
is not racism (or a caste system) in India, and raciam
against persons of Indian descent in the USA, and as to
whether awareness of it affects the state of mind of such
persons, becomes obvious quickly.
Here are some quotes. There are lots more available on
either topic.
__________________________________________________________
(In re interracial marriages where one spouse is of Indian
descent.)
"Color and race are volatile issues in America, and the pain
often percolates down to the children of such unions. In a
world where races and colors are neatly divided, where
exactly do they fit in? </p>
<p>"Someone asked me the other day, how do you
identify? And it was a difficult question to answer,"
says Erika Surat Andersen. This California based film maker
has brown hair, fair skin and an all American look. Yet
running like an invisible bloodvein through her are her
Indian genes and culture: "Certainly I could have said
well, I'm half Danish and half Indian but the answer is more
complicated than that. When I was young, I used to feel
special. My mother's family is from India and nobody knew
that in school and it was my own little secret. But as I
grew up, that sense of feeling special turned into feeling
different."</p>
<p>Indeed, feeling different is a common emotion for many
parents and children in intercultural relationships, as they
wonder who they are and how they fit into a world which
tends to judge people by their race and color. Within
the same families there can be different complexions, making
life difficult for the ones who inherit the darker hue.
Erika's brother Piara was darker and was given an Indian
name, and he certainly experienced much more direct
racism. So while Erika would have liked to look more Indian
to match her Indian soul, she wonders if life would have
been any easier.</p>
__________________________________________________
In India, the constittution reserved 22 % seats in
parliament and state legislatures for Scheduled Castes and
Tribes, the groups which were victims of social
discrimination for centuries. Seats were also reserved in
the educational institutions and jobs. Later anothe 27 %
seats were reserved for not so backward " Other
backward classes" which resulted in country wide
agitation and deaths.<br>However, the reserve categories
have still not come up to the mark and their representation
in colleges and jobs will go down in reservation is
abolished.<br>In the meanwhile more and more groups are
clamouring to get the "backward" status.
____________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:35:08 -0500 (EST)
From: srini subramanian <ssu...@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Class II citizens - Part 1/2
Hello!
This is with reference to the argument on "II class
citizens" in the digest. In my opinion, anyone (I mean any
indian) who is contemplating going back to india for good
should do so because one likes to be back in india (for all
positive reasons) and not because one doesn't like it here,
such as being treated like II class citizens ... It is
ludicrous to make a statement about the class treatment in
the US with the kind of system we have back in india. Being
treated as a II class, III class, or even worse, no class
citizen in one's own country is heart wrenching. Even today
in india, there are people who would not be allowed to
walk on certain streets because they belong to a certain
"caste". Is it illiteracy or our great culture! In my
opinion, one of the ugliest aspects of "Hindu" doctrine (may
be a result of misinterpretation and/or wrongful
implementation of a well-intended tenet over centuries of
time) is "casteism" in our society. ... Speaking of minister
and people in power, a friend of mine is a police officer
(IPS, ASP rank) and she was provided with 6 servants (I feel
ashamed even to utter that word, i prefer the word helper)
all with tax payer's money to do menial jobs (cooking,
buying groceries, baby sitting, house-keeping and the list
goes on..), none related to her job profile. How many of our
fellow indians let a helper sit in a chair in front of them
? They either stand there with their hands knotted or made
to squat on the floor. My point is, first, we should
keep our house in order before pointing our fingers at
others. When some of my American (white) friends ask me
about our caste system and make a face, I tell them the same
thing. Yes, we do have those unfortunate incidents and
practices continuing in india (more so in rural areas),
however, i point out that the US is not a holy place either
(racism, discrimination, etc) and so not to make a face!
To
be concluded...
Best regards
Doc Srini
__________________________________________________
End of quotes.
All rights reserved.
Will Gaines
TLD...@prodigy.com
glas
margot sheehan wrote ...
>
>
>
>> I still assert that it has absolutely no bearing on this case.
Regardlessof
>> what the differences in cultures. The Eappen's are both American's
>
>Ummm, meaning what? That they both carry US passports? Anybody can get one.
Is
>that what being 'American' comes down to nowadays? I guess so.
>
What?
>> and I
>> have not seen any evidence of them making race an issue in this
situation.
>
>Not directly, no. But! The vindictiveness of Eappen and his consort is a
new
>wrinkle to this old brain. Babies die all the time. It used to be most
>babies died before they turned two. Even now their death rate is far beyond
>that of ten-year-olds. They die of SIS, normal diseases, and freak
accidents.
>They smother themselves sometimes. They crawl off ledges and onto the floor
and
>smash their unfused crania.
> A normal =American= couple who lost a child accidentally while it was
in
>the care of a babysitter would cry and get over it and have another child.
> The spite and venom that Eappen expresses for Louise Woodward suggests
to
>me that he is using the death of this baby as a convenient pretext for
revenge
>upon the British for two centuries of the Raj.
>
>
Are you serious?
>> The only reason for anyone to do so is to try and paint some sort of
>> extenuating circumstances to justify one behaviour or another. I didn't
>> agree when Louise's nationality was brought into this mix, and I further
>> disagree with Mr. Eappen's nationality being introduced. Neither one has
>> anything to do with this story.
>
>It probably has =everything= to do with it, but because we're polite and
>forebearing we generally skirt around the subject. I also wonder about
>Eappen's appearance. According to the media, he is 31. Thirty-one! Then why
>does he look 45? Is he lying about his age, and if so, why? And if not, why
>does he look so old? Definitely out-of-pattern.
>
>
Oh....okay....you really had me going for a minute there. Hahahaha....I was
starting to think you were some kind of stupid rascist or something.
Sheeeeessshhh...you really got me this time Margot....I owe you one.
Heeheehee...glas
glas
tribe
thought you might like to see this, found it in another newsgroup.
Eappens had been subjects of child abuse investigation when Brendan
was one after he was admitted to hospital with severe
bruising to his
arms and legs; Swedish Au Pair (pre-Louise)
interviewed and said she
saw Deborah Eappen 'lashing out' at Brendan on
several occasions
when she was 'stressed and tired' - said she was
never contacted by
police in course of their investigation; police
initially were going to
charge Deborah Eappen with assault on Feb 4 (after
discovering she
had previously been under investigation re Brendan's
injuries) but under
pressure from DA's office they held off and
eventually charged Louise.
Documentary featured many more revelations including
'anonymous'
interview with doctor from Boston Children's Hospital
who claimed
doctors treating Matthew on Feb 4 (many of them
friends of Sunil who
were aware of earlier investigations) were
'reluctant' to admit that his
injuries were old. Sensational programme - makers say
they are
sending dossier of evidence to Boston police. by
Hanratty,
Strasbourg., 11/14/97
William Gaines
Mcnelly wrote:
________________________________________
_________________________________________
The allegation that there's a documentary from France or somewhere has
been around the net for several days but that's the first I've seen of
what is alledgedly in it. Does anyone have any idea if it is real, or the
allegations in it are real?
I would have thought that if such events really occurred the defense
investigators would have discovered it.
Could you tell us what "...other newsgroup" you found it on?
Will
glas
sto...@primenet.com
> Until I can think of a better way to keep the theory before the public, I
> intend to continue referring to it in various threads. Please tell me a
> better way, if there is one.
How about just adding: "See DejaNews for ALTERNATE THEORY posts." to
your signature? You could do away with the email address since its
already at the top of your posts, and the "all rights reserved" line,
since it has no more legal weight than if your post was without it.
I think what is upsetting a lot of people is that you put identical
posts under different topic headings. For those of us who are going thru
the ng, it's annoying to keep opening the same notes over and over.
Tonight I noticed not just repeats from one topic to another, but two
identical notes under one topic. If this weren't happening, I think
people would be a lot more receptive to your posts.
William Gaines
The info that there's a documentary from France has been around the net
for several days but that's the first I've seen of what is alledgedly in
it. Does anyone have any idea if it is real, or the allegations in it are
real?
Could you tell us what other newsgroup you found it on?
Will Gaines
William Gaines
Maya Keshavan wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Dear [ ] Sir, [ ] AOLer, [ ] Crybaby,
> [ ] Spammer, [ ] Ma'm, [ ] Pervert,
> [ ] Loudmouth, [ ] Bore, [ ] Kid,
> [ ] Vegan, [X] Clueless, [ ] Genius,
> [ ] Troll, [X] Idiot, [ ] Webster,
>
Who among us qualifies as X'ed above?
Let he or she, who asserts that he or she does not, prove it:
See my challenge to all, at the thread "CHALLENGE TO WOODWARD CASE FANS".
William Gaines
McNelly wrote:
______________________________
In article <64q9hv$pbk$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
TLD...@prodigy.com (William Gaines) wrote:
: You
: may also want to read my latest post in "Alternate theory, au pair
: Woodward", which is in further support of the Eappens.
Arrgh! Will, is there any way for you to write a post without
including this?
As many others have pointed out to you, if people want to discuss
your theory, they will. If they don't, they won't. Posting this
line to every thread related to the Eappens and Woodward will not
change this. Welcome to Usenet.
__________________________________
Will responds:
When the list of threads comes up on my software, all the old posts have
been automatically deleted. And I figured there would be persons who
would have the same or similar software that I do. But I am new to this
ng, but not to Usenet. Perhaps there is something I don't get. Is it that
my software is unusual (it's what came with Prodigy Classic]? Is it that
your software keeps the entire thread up forever, until you delete it, or
what?
Those who have similar software and had never seen the thread of the
alternate theory would not know it existed, if they came in after it was
deleted, but might want to read it if they knew.
On my software, I can click on SEARCH, enter the name of a thread, and
get the list of all the posts to that thread, even if they have been
deleted as above. So I figured if I referenced the theory, then whoever
saw the reference would know there was something there, they too could
use SEARCH, and go to the thread
Rather than keep posting the theory over and over every day like the
commercial spammers do, I just referred to it here and there. It works, I
think. Because now and then I have seen posts that seemed to be coming
from just such a person like I mentioned above.
I thought that those who had already seen it would just skim over the
recurring notice without giving it a thought. I am curious as to why you
didn't. As to if I can post without mentioning it, yes. Actually, I save
most of my posts; and yours, when relevant. Using FIND, I see that only a
minority of my posts mention the thread.
As to your implication that I was already aware of this problem, no, I
was not. Yours is the first post I have seen in re. I saw one on the
theory thread, but I saw it after I saw yours, and it was much the same
post and by the same author who made a post in re on this thread, Glas.
The only theory to have been given wide dissemination is the prosecution
theory. Accordingly, many people think that Woodward is a baby killer,
and she stands convicted, by unfair trial I think, of a felony (which is
not to say I think she is innocent or the Eappens guilty). I can't
imagine how she and her family must feel. But, I think it only fair to
them that as many as possible know that there is an alternate theory that
has never been presented to the jury or the public.
I have received support for doing so from private email, and posts, and
friends and family.
Until I can think of a better way to keep the theory before the public, I
intend to continue referring to it in various threads. Please tell me a
better way, if there is one.
All rights reserved.
Will Gaines
TLD...@prodigy.com
PattyC4303
In article <nmcnelly-171...@med-anat23.bu.edu>, nmcn...@bu.edu
(N.A.F. McNelly) writes:
>n article <mayaEJr...@netcom.com>, ma...@netcom.com (Maya Keshavan) wrote:
>
>[An excellent post that manages to be both informative and funny.
> Is there an emoticon for applause?]
>
>: Do YOU? Do you have the tiniest clue as to what you are blathering
>: about? Have you some sort of ties to India? Have ever spoken to
>: an Indian? Have you eaten at an Indian restaurant?
>
>Does the buffet at Foxwoods count?
>.................................................................
>Nancy McNelly
Is that in Ireland? :) JUST kidding!
PattyC
PattyC4303
Maybe not all would react as Maya did. But your oddly condescending post,
trying to make her *reaction* sound anything different than the honest
response to what she apparently *off* (in her opinion) in your remarks.. is
additional insult.
While African Americans can sure talk about reaction to racism, I see no
way your one little private email of support addresses the stuff you
previously stated about racism against those of Indian descent.
Grateful? Seems to me the lady clearly stated she does not EVEN accept
your point. So what is to be grateful about?
Why don't you try another theory? Or try perhaps only to get a clue. You
obviously did not read thoroughly that decent post.
PattyC
In article <64q9hv$pbk$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
TLD...@prodigy.com (William Gaines) writes:
>Maya Keshavan posted a criticism of my (Will Gaines) post in re the
>possiblity that Dr. Sunil Eappen's experience and knowledge with racism
>in India and the USA affects his state of mind.
>
>Thank for your interest Maya, and your defense of the Eappens. You may
>want to help me, and others on this ng, to further understand you, and
>the Eappens, and all persons of Indian descent, as I explain below. You
>may also want to read my latest post in "Alternate theory, au pair
>Woodward", which is in further support of the Eappens.
>
>I am trying to explore what may have happened to Matty, and why, and by
>whom. And asking, Could the Eappen's state of mind have affected their
>decisions, and could racism in India and the USA have affected their
>state of mind.
>
>In your case, at least, I seem to have hit a nerve.
>
>See how easy it was. All I had to do was post.
>
>The question I asked about the Eappens is, in a sense, Do the Eappens
>have the same nerve you do? And, if so, was that nerve hit when they
>realized they might be suspected of child abuse. How did it affect their
>state of mind as they made decisions in re taking, or not taking, Matty
>to a hospital to see what was wrong with his wrist, if, in fact, they
>knew there was anything wrong.
>
>Think about it, all. If it is that easy to hit Maya's nerve, how much
>more powerfully might the Eappens nerve have been hit if they suddenly
>realized that they might be suspects in a case of possible child abuse?
>
>Maya, if you were not yourself a person of Indian descent, would you have
>so reacted? Would that nerve have been there if you were not sensitive to
>the subject of racism as regards brown-skinned persons? If you are
>sensitive, why wouldn't the Eappens be sensitive too?
>
>Also, you have taught me something, but I am not sure just what, yet. I
>expected that if I got any reaction at all from persons of Indian descent,
> it would have been to thank me for recognizing their situation, and
>being supportive. Somehow I got it wrong.
>
>I have recieved a private email in response to the same post that you
>responded to. Apparently it is from a person of African descent, who
>confirmed that, in certain cases that he or she is personally familiar
>with, the parents in fact did not take their babies to a hospital for
>examination after non-child-abuse injury, because they feared that they,
>as persons of color, would be suspected of child abuse by white hospital
>personnel; more so than if they were themselves white.
>
>He or she also related an example in which he or she is sure - has
>personal knowledge - that an innocent mother was imprisoned for many
>years, unjustly, for precisely that reason. He or she concluded by
>thanking me for my bringing this matter to forum.
>
>Obviously, at least in your case, the situation is different, and I am so
>far off in my understanding of human nature that I just don't get it.
>
>I assure you that I have experienced racism directed against me,
>personally. And, I was deeply grateful for the support I got at that
>time. So, unlike me and the private poster, why aren't you grateful?
>
>In my latest post to "Alternate theory, au pair Woodward", I have stated
>some of the reasons why I think that thread could ultimately be of great
>importance to the well being of the Eappens. And how I am trying to get
>that benefit to them. I would appreciate all the help I can get in
>helping them.
>
>So, please, try to educate this guy who just doesn't get it. What don't I
>get, exactly? Where did I go so wrong in assuming what your reaction
>would be? Do you think all persons of Indian descent would react the same
>way?
PattyC4303
In article <64s17r$1ih2$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
TLD...@prodigy.com (William Gaines) writes:
>I (Will Gaines) am aware that for some, the topic of race is an
>uncomfortable topic. If that is you, you may prefer skip
>this entire discussion.
>
>
Oh get serious.
While race is a topic of interest, debate, and concern on many levels, I
think the wierdest thing about this thread.. is that race has little to do
with the Eappen/Woodward story. Which by the way, is more or less over.
Let it go.
PattyC
PattyC4303
In article <19971117182...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
msl...@aol.com (MSLU123) writes:
>
>>I still assert that it has absolutely no bearing on this case. Regardless
>>of what the differences in cultures. The Eappen's are both American's and I
>>have not seen any evidence of them making race an issue in this situation.
>>The only reason for anyone to do so is to try and paint some sort of
>>extenuating circumstances to justify one behaviour or another. I didn't
>>agree when Louise's nationality was brought into this mix, and I further
>>disagree with Mr. Eappen's nationality being introduced. Neither one has
>>anything to do with this story.
>>
>>glas
>
>
>I think we are allowedto be curious.
I agree mslu with being allowed to be curious... of course.. Just.. the
question is answered.. so..
PattyC
Sharonpo
>TLD...@prodigy.com (William Gaines)
>Thank for your interest Maya, and your defense of the Eappens. You may
>want to help me, and others on this ng, to further understand you, and
>the Eappens, and all persons of Indian descent, as I explain below. You
>may also want to read my latest post in "Alternate theory, au pair
>Woodward", which is in further support of the Eappens.
CLICK - your post is history for me, bubba. You are abusing the ng with your
inanity (spam).
Sharon
PattyC4303
In article <34707DFE...@earthlink.net>, margot sheehan
<galle...@earthlink.net> writes:
>glas wrote: <snip>
>
>
>> I still assert that it has absolutely no bearing on this case.
>Regardlessof
>> what the differences in cultures. The Eappen's are both American's
>
>Ummm, meaning what? That they both carry US passports? Anybody can get one.
>Is
>that what being 'American' comes down to nowadays? I guess so.
>
>> and I
>> have not seen any evidence of them making race an issue in this situation.
>
>Not directly, no. But! The vindictiveness of Eappen and his consort is a new
>wrinkle to this old brain. Babies die all the time. It used to be most
>babies died before they turned two. Even now their death rate is far beyond
>that of ten-year-olds. They die of SIS, normal diseases, and freak accidents.
>They smother themselves sometimes. They crawl off ledges and onto the floor
>and
>smash their unfused crania.
> A normal =American= couple who lost a child accidentally while it was in
>the care of a babysitter would cry and get over it and have another child.
> The spite and venom that Eappen expresses for Louise Woodward suggests to
>me that he is using the death of this baby as a convenient pretext for
>revenge
>upon the British for two centuries of the Raj.
>
>
>> The only reason for anyone to do so is to try and paint some sort of
>> extenuating circumstances to justify one behaviour or another. I didn't
>> agree when Louise's nationality was brought into this mix, and I further
>> disagree with Mr. Eappen's nationality being introduced. Neither one has
>> anything to do with this story.
>
>It probably has =everything= to do with it, but because we're polite and
>forebearing we generally skirt around the subject. I also wonder about
>Eappen's appearance. According to the media, he is 31. Thirty-one! Then why
>does he look 45? Is he lying about his age, and if so, why? And if not, why
>does he look so old? Definitely out-of-pattern.
>
>
>Margot
>
>
>
Good grief.
American is born in America. Mr. Eappen is American. Deal with it, Margot.
PattyC
Greg Goss
nmcn...@bu.edu (N.A.F. McNelly) wrote:
>Will, most good newsreaders have a "marked as read" capability.
>Which means that after you have read a post, it won't be there
>the next time you look at your news file. But it will still be
>available all over the world for those who haven't read it yet.
He was talking about software that marks stuff as read automagically,
even if the post has never been on the screen. This is different than
explicitly marking it so
My newsreader defaults to the settings he describes when you install
it. And, as he describes, I would miss many threads if I'd left it
that way.
Linda A. Berry
On 18 Nov 1997 20:27:52 GMT, TLD...@prodigy.com (William Gaines)
wrote:
>McNelly wrote:
>______________________________
>In article <64q9hv$pbk$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
>TLD...@prodigy.com (William Gaines) wrote:
>
>: You
>: may also want to read my latest post in "Alternate theory, au pair
>: Woodward", which is in further support of the Eappens.
>
>Arrgh! Will, is there any way for you to write a post without
>including this?
>Until I can think of a better way to keep the theory before the public, I
>intend to continue referring to it in various threads. Please tell me a
>better way, if there is one.
>
>All rights reserved.
>Will Gaines
>TLD...@prodigy.com
Will, even though your inclusion of the reference does not bother me
personally, I have a suggestion: maybe you could include it as a
standard signature line. For some reason, people don't seem to
complain at the same thing being posted over & over when it is
included as part of their signature.
Linda A. Berry
tribe
Sorry it's been a few days delayed, the other newsgroup was the CNN NG
devoted to the Woodward Case. I have since seen it posted there that the
documentary cannot be varified, and the consensus of the people in the
group is that it was a hoax.
JBrown6000
Will says:
<<Rather than keep posting the theory over and over every day like the
commercial spammers do, I just referred to it here and there. It works, I
think. Because now and then I have seen posts that seemed to be coming
from just such a person like I mentioned above.
**Will, perhaps as a compromise you will consider including the information
regarding your theory in your signature line. That way the information is
there, and no one has to slog though repeated posts.
I enjoy your NEW informational posts, by the way.
jb
JBrown6000
Someone says:
<<The info that there's a documentary from France has been around the net
> for several days but that's the first I've seen of what is alledgedly in
> it. Does anyone have any idea if it is real, or the allegations in it are
> real?
>
> Could you tell us what other newsgroup you found it on?
>
**I've heard about this from several sources and intend to ask some friends in
Paris what they know.
jb
Maggie8097
Someone says:
<<The info that there's a documentary from France has been around the net
> for several days but that's the first I've seen of what is alledgedly in
> it. Does anyone have any idea if it is real, or the allegations in it are
> real?
>
> Could you tell us what other newsgroup you found it on?
>
**I've heard about this from several sources and intend to ask some friends in
Paris what they know.
***Does anyone really believe there exists, in any language, a documentary
about any major party in this case that has been totally ignored by the
American press? Do you really think the U.S. press corps is so insulated that
they wouldn't have heard about this if it were true? And rushed to get a
translation and airing on Hard Copy, or Geraldo, or ABC Evening News? And do
you really think some French broadcaster has been able to discover American
documents which haven't been found by the American or British press?
I can absolutely guarantee you that no French documentary with unfavorable
information about the Eappens has ever been aired.
Maggie
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable,
must be the truth." --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Pat Fish1
>
>**I don't recall if it has "aired". I'm just wondering if it "exists."
>The video of DE prompting her son to say bad things about Louise "exists" but
>it was never "aired."
>
>jb
>
>
That alleged french stuff about the Eappens has already been claimed a hoax.
If it existed, Mr. Scheck would have found it.
As for that videotape with DE prompting her older son...this was requested by
the PROSECUTION. They were hoping that the child might reveal something about
Louise that could be used in the trial. Deborah complied with the prosecutors
and is now getting slammed all over the place as if she were some horrible
person trying to solicit lies from her son.
The logic, and I'm not saying I agree or disagree, was that if the child (how
old is he....two and a half, something like this?) recounted some incidents
regarding his or Matthew's treatment by LW that would be revelatory. In other
words, if Brendan said something to the effect, "Louise hit Matthew sometimes"
or however childish way he may have phrased it, it would definitely indicate
something amiss, as a child that young is perceived unable to make this up.
As it was, Brendan said nothing untoward and on the other side of the pendulum,
the judge concluded that this indicated nothing except Brendan had not seen any
abusive incidents, did not interpret them as such, or had forgotten them.
The judge ordered the tape sealed with this logic. Although, the prosecution
had properly turned the tape over to the defense, as they are required by law.
It was the JUDGE that determined it had no bearing on the case. The judge may
well have ruled the same if Brendan did say something untoward, but we will
never know this.
The prosecution, rightly or wrongly and with the best or worst intents, tried
to get Brendan to say on tape that he or his brother were abused or mistreated
by LW.
Now just how did the public hear about this tape? No one knew about it except
the prosecution and the defense. The prosecution proclaims they told no one
about it.
But it certainly did behoove the defense to release the info to the public,
didn't it? It would certainly cast aspersions on Deborah Eappen when revealed
in an unflattering light, now wouldn't it? And when you're trying to generate
a mass hysteria to sway a verdict, you hope that the public will buy your media
manipulation lock, stock and barrel.
Many did.
Pat Fish/Merryland
JBrown6000
Maggie says:
<<<<The info that there's a documentary from France has been around the net
> for several days but that's the first I've seen of what is alledgedly in
> it. Does anyone have any idea if it is real, or the allegations in it are
> real?
>
> Could you tell us what other newsgroup you found it on?
>
jb replied:
**I've heard about this from several sources and intend to ask some friends in
Paris what they know.
***Does anyone really believe there exists, in any language, a documentary
about any major party in this case that has been totally ignored by the
American press? Do you really think the U.S. press corps is so insulated that
they wouldn't have heard about this if it were true? And rushed to get a
translation and airing on Hard Copy, or Geraldo, or ABC Evening News? And do
you really think some French broadcaster has been able to discover American
documents which haven't been found by the American or British press?
I can absolutely guarantee you that no French documentary with unfavorable
information about the Eappens has ever been aired.
**I don't recall if it has "aired". I'm just wondering if it "exists."
JBrown6000
Patfish says:
<<
That alleged french stuff about the Eappens has already been claimed a hoax.
If it existed, Mr. Scheck would have found it.
*I didn't hear about it till the trial was over. Where did you hear it was a
hoax?
jb
chan...@juno.com
In article <19971115190...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
glc...@aol.com (GLC1173) wrote:
>
> Glas quoted Maryanne:
> >>He looks like he is from India, Pakistan or one of those >>countries in
> >>that area.
> >>Does anyone know from where?
>
> and replied:
> >>>I didn't say anything when this question was first asked, >>>but now that
it
> >>>keeps popping up, I'd like to know what it has to do with >>>anything?
>
> "Cultural relativity" defenses are *common* in child abuse and spouse abuse
> cases involving Third World-born people in the U.S.
Except, you prize imbecile, that he has commited no crime. His nationality
or ethnicity is irrelevant .. except to idiots such as GLC
> Many - if not most - Third World societies have very different ideas from
> American law of what is accepted domestic behavior, particularly if the perp
> is the husband or father.
Domestic violence is hardly unknown in pure American families ..
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
glas
chan...@juno.com wrote ...
>
>Domestic violence is hardly unknown in pure American families ..
>
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Just what we need around here....another blooming Einstein.
glas