Wall of silence hid Josef Fritzl's crimes
tiny dancer
By Bojan Pancevski in Amstetten and Tony Paterson in Berlin
Last updated: 3:27 AM BST 04/05/2008
Evidence of how a wall of silence hid the crimes of Josef Fritzl mounted on
Saturday as it was revealed that his abuse of his daughter Elisabeth as a
teenager was virtually an open secret among people who knew the family.
Former lodgers at the family house and school friends of Elisabeth have
admitted that they heard she was being sexually abused and mistreated, yet
none contacted police or social services either before or after she
disappeared.
Joseph Leitner, a former lodger, said that shortly after he moved in, he
learnt through a friend that she had been repeatedly raped by her father.
"I had a good friend from school who was really close to Elisabeth," said Mr
Leitner, who lived at the house in the small and close-knit Austrian town of
Amstetten between 1990 and 1994.
"I would say they were best friends - they spent a lot of time together. She
confided in me, and told me what a monster Josef was - and what he had done
to Elisabeth.
"But I decided I did not want to get involved. I did not want to get kicked
out of the flat, I did not want to lose it. I kept myself to myself."
Elisabeth spent 24 years trapped in the cellar of her family home, bearing
seven children through her father's forced sexual attentions.
The fact that Fritzl, now 73, had convictions for rape, attempted rape and
indecent exposure was well known in the local community among those who had
lived there for some time - but this was not acted on when police were
informed of Elisabeth's disappearance after she vanished in 1984.
Austrian officialdom appears to have accepted Fritzl's explanation that
Elisabeth, now 42, had run off to join a cult.
A school friend of Elisabeth, whose family lodged in the Fritzl household,
claimed that shortly before she vanished Elisabeth had said she planned to
run away for good to escape her father.
"We were in the same class and we were friends," said Alfred Dubanovsky, 42.
"After she vanished we talked about it, and we knew she had run off before.
"We thought she had run off again because she had told someone in our group
that she had had enough, couldn't stand it any more at home and that her
father had beat her, and had hurt her. She said she was scared of him."
Mr Dubanovsky broke down in tears as he admitted that he saw Fritzl taking
food into the cellar by wheelbarrow after Elisabeth's disappearance.
"At the time, he thought nothing of it. He said that even before her
captivity Elisabeth had spent most of her time indoors.
"She was a great girl, but very shy and pretty nervous," he said.
"You needed to know her before she would trust you. But we got on really
well, we had even danced together a couple of times. We all used to go the
Belami disco on her road, but she was rarely allowed out to see us."
Mr Leitner, a waiter who now lives in Neustadt near Amstetten, declined to
name the friend of his in whom Elisabeth had confided about the abuse.
He said that the pair briefly ran away together to Vienna until Fritzl
brought Elisabeth back home.
"When Elisabeth vanished, my friend thought she had run off again," he said.
"She never said anything because she was scared. It wasn't only Elisabeth
that was terrified of Fritzl, my friend was as well."
He also cast doubt on police insistence that Fritzl's wife, Rosemarie, 68,
was entirely unaware of what was going on.
The pair, he pointed out, routinely holidayed separately - an arrangement
that would have meant there was someone at home to look after the prisoners.
"I am almost certain that she was [aware]," he said. "They always went on
separate holidays. When she came back, he flew off to Thailand for a few
weeks.
"Somebody had to do it otherwise they would have starved to death."
Police - who have 300 officers working on the case - are planning to track
down and interview all 100 tenants who lived in the various flats that
Fritzl owned.
It is expected that many others may have harboured similar suspicions,
although it appears that at no point was the alarm raised.
On Saturday, it was also claimed that for the first nine years following her
imprisonment in 1984, Elisabeth was kept in only one basement room beneath
the house.
Pictures of the complex released so far show an extended basement thought to
contain at least four rooms, but Germany's Der Spiegel magazine, citing
sources close to the investigation, said the extensions were not carried out
until 1993, and that until then Elisabeth was confined to a single basement
chamber within what was originally built as a nuclear bunker.
The magazine said it meant that the three children born during those first
nine years must have witnessed Fritzl raping their mother at close quarters.
tiny dancer
TERROR IN THE DUNGEON
By Kate Mansey 4/05/2008
Rosemarie Fritzl walked out on sadistic husband Josef after years of
beatings and abuse.
She told friends she also suffered at the hands of the monster who
imprisoned their daughter Elisabeth in the cellar below their home.
Rosemarie, who married Fritzl when she was 17, escaped in 1973 to live in a
guesthouse the couple owned. It was two hours from the family home and
Fritzl insisted their seven children stay with him.
She moved back in with him nine years later after the guesthouse burned
down - a suspected arson attack blamed on him.
Friends say she knew nothing of his plan to build a dungeon. He converted
the cellar while she was away, installing lights and plumbing.
Rosemarie's former colleague Anton Klammer, 57, said: "People ask how she
could not have known but she was living away from him for a long time.
"Josef beat her and she was petrified of him. She loved her kids but the
guesthouse they owned was a good excuse to leave him. She thought that if
she didn't leave, he may kill her. Rosemarie was happy and normal but when
he was around she used to shrink away.
"You could tell she was terrified of him.
"The children stayed with Josef because they had to go to school but
sometimes he would come up and drop the children off with Rosemarie for a
few nights. She was a loving mother - I'm sure she had no idea of what was
going on."
Fritzl was arrested for arson at the guesthouse in the idyllic tourist spot
of Mondsee but released due to lack of evidence.
Cafe owner Beate Schmidinger said: "Everyone thought he set fire to the
place because we knew he had money trouble."
Fritzl owned five properties but had debts estimated at Ł1.5million.
The new owner of the guesthouse Paul Ruhdorfer, 58, said: "There were two
Rosemaries.
"One was the owner and competent businesswoman who was happy and carefree.
The other was a timid victim, controlled by her overbearing husband."
Bill Shroyer
<tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
> Dungeon built after battered wife left
> TERROR IN THE DUNGEON
> By Kate Mansey 4/05/2008
> Rosemarie Fritzl walked out on sadistic husband Josef after years of
> beatings and abuse.
> She told friends she also suffered at the hands of the monster who
> imprisoned their daughter Elisabeth in the cellar below their home.
>
> Rosemarie, who married Fritzl when she was 17, escaped in 1973 to live in a
> guesthouse the couple owned. It was two hours from the family home and
> Fritzl insisted their seven children stay with him.
>
> She moved back in with him nine years later after the guesthouse burned
> down - a suspected arson attack blamed on him.
<snip>
This isn't the same place where the 17 year old girl was found dead
that he's now being suspected of killing, is it?
tiny dancer
"Bill Shroyer" <BillS...@Pittsburgh.com> wrote in message
news:5nfr145h1i8q7s4tc...@4ax.com...
The guest house is the place where a different girl was found murdered about
twenty some years ago. She was raped and murdered, and now LE is checking
into Fritzls' possible involvement in that cold case.
td
earthage
> Fritzl owned five properties but had debts estimated at 1.5million.
>
> The new owner of the guesthouse Paul Ruhdorfer, 58, said: "There were two
> Rosemaries.
>
> "One was the owner and competent businesswoman who was happy and carefree.
> The other was a timid victim, controlled by her overbearing husband."
>
> http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2008/05/04/dungeon-built-after-battered-wife-left-98487-20404466/
Fritzl bought the guesthouse property in 1973, he probably ordered
Rosemarie to go
there and manage it. Elsewhere I read that she ran it during the
summertime from 1975 to 1996. He must have set fire to it and then
rebuilt it.
Picture of the guesthouse
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0bek4wr3eHa0P
tiny dancer
"earthage" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cbfd0eb8-19f9-4eda...@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Thanks for the photo. I'd somehow pictured it more remote. Didn't realize
it was right on a main street as it is. I'd pictured a country setting.
td
earthage
Yep. I read there's another murder in 1966 that LE is looking at,
it's in
another area. And a German language paper reported that LE is looking
into 60-70 unsolved murders/disappearances to see if Fritzl could be
involved.
earthage
The most dramatic moment, by all accounts, was when Rosemarie took her
long-lost, prematurely white-haired – and now toothless – daughter in
her arms and apologised, saying: “I had no idea.”
Some experts were baffled by the fact that this 68-year-old member of
the local parent-teacher association had not yet been questioned by
police as a potential suspect in the presence of her lawyer. By the
end of last week it was being reported that she had received packages
at the Fritzl home addressed to Elisa-beth.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1117193.ece
But a source close to the inquiry said: “The questions over how much
Rosemarie knew are mounting up.” Investigators said it “defied logic”
that she could not have been suspicious of deliveries of clothes and
other goods addressed to “missing” Elisabeth, now 42.
The revelation that Elisabeth was able to shop came after a Sun probe
which found she had a history of credit transactions.
Records suggest she browsed catalogues, although it is unclear if she
placed the orders or whether her father did it for her.
Betsy
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3867629.ece
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1117193.ece
*******
This is very interesting. She had packages mailed to the house in her own
name? And Mother didn't wonder? Or did Daddy Dearest make up lies to cover
it up? Mother sounds dumb as a rock.
earthage
Chief of police Franz Polzen exclusively told us: "We have spoken at
length to Elisabeth's brothers and sisters. All said their father
wasn't just very strict, aggressive, dominant and power-mad, he was a
‘real tyrant'.
"They weren't ever allowed to address him or ask him anything. That
was why every child except one son left the house as soon as they
could.
But one son wasn't allowed to leave, just like Elisabeth. He is very
slow and has a few problems and difficulties. Josef kept him, using
this son as his slave and house boy.
"I believe it was Josef's youngest son. He had to wait on his father
hand and foot, and skivvy for him."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3867629.ece
The six other children that Fritzl had with Rosemarie have long since
grown up and left home. Two of them, Harald, 44, and Doris, 35, have
been helping the police.
In the village of Mitterkirchen im Machland on Thursday, Harald could
be seen in the upstairs window of his orange-painted cottage not far
from the banks of the Danube. A woman who identified herself as his
wife shouted at a visitor to “leave us in peace”.
Several hundred kilometres away in the mountainous province of Stiria,
Doris’s husband appeared at the door of their comfortable villa to
deny any knowledge of wrongdoing. He refused to offer any opinion of
his notorious father-in-law before slamming the door.
tiny dancer
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/0405_fritzl.shtml
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3867629.ece
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is so typical of this type man. They consider their children to be
their property, a possession. My father used to say it in those words.
"you belong to me, period." "I own you." "What's yours is mine." You
don't question them, because if you do, you get a smack across the face for
talking back. It's a whole attitude. To even question it is considered
rebellion. It's a mind-set. Like questioning or disputing that grass is
green.
earthage
Rosemarie Fritzl also revealed to the police how she believed she had
received a call from her daughter in 1994, 10 years after she had
believed Elisabeth had fled the family home to join a sect. Police now
believe the call in which Elisabeth supposedly asked her parents to
look after a baby that she had just left on their doorstep was made
from a telephone box by Fritzl who tried to imitate his daughter's
voice. Rosemarie later asked how it was that Elisabeth had known their
new telephone number.
Betsy
Yep, dumb as a rock. I'm sorry, but if my husband called on the phone and
tried to pass himself off as my daughter, I would know something fishy was
up!
Peter Dworkin
wrote:
I don't believe there is such a thing as a non-offending co-parent.
Amy Guskin
(in article <FpmdnTfW-8xiBoPV...@comcast.com>):
I can't believe this would have worked, even if the guy was a high tenor.
Maybe he paid some woman on the street to say a few Elisabeth-like things?
Amy
--
"In my line of work you gotta keep repeating things over and over and over
again for the truth to sink in, to kinda catapult the propaganda." - George
W. Bush, May 24, 2005
JonesieCat
"Peter Dworkin" <pe...@pdworkin.com> wrote in message
news:vhst14h8difo1tbj0...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 May 2008 20:30:07 -0700, "Betsy" <b.fe...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"earthage" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:9182d78d-24fc-4b6b...@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3867629.ece
>>
>>The most dramatic moment, by all accounts, was when Rosemarie took her
>>her arms and apologised, saying: "I had no idea."
>>
>>Some experts were baffled by the fact that this 68-year-old member of
>>the local parent-teacher association had not yet been questioned by
>>police as a potential suspect in the presence of her lawyer. By the
>>end of last week it was being reported that she had received packages
>>at the Fritzl home addressed to Elisa-beth.
>>
>>http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1117193.ece
>>
>>But a source close to the inquiry said: "The questions over how much
>>Rosemarie knew are mounting up." Investigators said it "defied logic"
>>that she could not have been suspicious of deliveries of clothes and
>>other goods addressed to "missing" Elisabeth, now 42.
>>
>>The revelation that Elisabeth was able to shop came after a Sun probe
>>which found she had a history of credit transactions.
>>
>>Records suggest she browsed catalogues, although it is unclear if she
>>placed the orders or whether her father did it for her.
>>
>>*******
>>This is very interesting. She had packages mailed to the house in her own
>>name? And Mother didn't wonder? Or did Daddy Dearest make up lies to
>>cover
>>it up? Mother sounds dumb as a rock.
>>
>
> I don't believe there is such a thing as a non-offending co-parent.
What?! What does that mean?
Peter Dworkin
Co-parent usually, but not always, means spouse. Non-offending means
not committing some sort of offense, that is, not in some way or
fashion, by omission or commission, contributing to the abuse. Either
they are turning a blind eye, or they are ignoring signs, or they are
co-dependant and are protecting the abuser, or they are directly
contributing to the abuse. I don't believe Fritzl's wife could not
have "known" something. I believe she decided to ignore what she was
seeing all around her. I don't think this is controversial in the
slightest degree. "Dumb as a rock" excuses her culpability. I have
tried to use understandable language. Feel free to ask more questions
if you find yourself confused.
Marianna
I think the mother did know what was going on and decided to pretend
she didn't. Too much is adding up now for her to maintain deniability.
I think this bit from the original post is particularly telling:
"Rosemarie, who married Fritzl when she was 17, escaped in 1973 to
live in a
guesthouse the couple owned. It was two hours from the family home
and
Fritzl insisted their seven children stay with him.
She moved back in with him nine years later after the guesthouse
burned
down - a suspected arson attack blamed on him. "
So this woman left Fritzl- AND her kids- and lived separately from him
for 9 years? Why did she not get a divorce? Why did she leave her
children with a man who was too abusive for her to live with? Didn't
they deserve better, too?r?
I think Rosemarie wanted to stay with Fritzl for security reasons-
financial, status, whatever. So she didn't divorce him. If Fritzl was
abusing Elisabeth or the other kids, it meant he wasn't abusing *her*,
however temporarily. I think she took the easy way out for herself,
because after all if anything ever came to light she could either play
dumb or play the abused wife card. She probably never figured on so
many people getting together and comparing stories, to say nothing of
the media attention, so her professed ignorance is just not going to
hold water- thanks to the Sun for the investigative work on those
catalog shipment, especially.
Rosemarie deserves to rot in hell right next to her charming husband.
Apologizing to Elisabeth now costs her nothing and means nothing.
Marianna
tiny dancer
"Marianna" <nomiddle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b730059a-0e3e-46ab...@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Marianna
I'm beginning to go along with you Marianna. Once I heard she left her
children with that brute. I don't care how much somebody abuses me, but
they better never lay a hand on my children. And never in a million years
would I leave my children, no matter what.
I also don't think Elisabeth 'gave up her' babies to that monster willingly
or without a fight. the ones that 'went upstairs' to live. Elisabeth knew
what a monster he was. She must have worried constantly about what was
happening to her daughters living upstairs, with him.
td
td
JonesieCat
"comadrejo" <comadr...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:comadrejoagua-BE9...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <lkITj.120470$Er2....@bignews6.bellsouth.net>,
> "tiny dancer" <tinyda...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think the mother did know what was going on and decided to pretend
>> she didn't. Too much is adding up now for her to maintain deniability.
>> I think this bit from the original post is particularly telling:
>
> Whether she knew or not, had suspicions, was in complete denial, or was
> a victim who had many conditions of PTSD, there is 24 year history of
> this, with her in close vicinity. One slip up in those 24-30 years of
> abuse and torture could lead her to criminal charges..
Yes, I suppose she should get a lawyer, regardless of her guilt or
innocence. I just find it hard to know what to think. Do I think I'd know
what was happening, were I in her shoes? Yes. But dang, I'm not her. This
guy is a violent offender, rapist and maybe murderer. And people are blaming
HER? The way this is being reported, the interviews with relatives, old
neighbors and friends, I really am thinking there was a cultural divide I
surely can't fathom. Something horrible, rotten and evil permeated that
house and family and it isn't clear to me the wife would have been able to
sort thru the emotional/psychological muck to realize her own daughter was
in the basement having babies.
jc
JonesieCat
How very kind of you. If one parent is guilty of child abuse, both parents
are, I see. Yep, you've made your view clear, your "understandable language"
is a testament to crystal clear clarity for sure, yessirreebob. Okayyyyyyy.
jc
Peter Dworkin
<jonesi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
For a few days I was under the impression that you had something to
contribute, but you have made it clear that when it comes to this sort
of issue you are really rather ignorant.
In the rape-cirsis/child abuse center where I work, not *one* member
of the staff believes in the myth of the non-offending parent. That is
because we work with them every day. They may not have broken any
laws, but that doesn't mean that they are non-offending.
Your sarcasm only underlines your lack of knowledge, a lack which you
clearly demonstrated in our previous colloquy about personality
disorders.
You seem actually not to be stupid, so why not use this as an
opportunity to learn something, rather than to defend, as you have
before, the indefensible?
Bill Shroyer
wrote:
> "earthage" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
I have to agree. This definitely adds a different tone to Rosemarie. I
hope for her sake she -is- dumb as a mentally retarded rock, because
if she isn't, then she probably needs to be rotting alongside her
husband.
Bill Shroyer
wrote:
Actually, her sarcasm is a direct response to your arrogance. You'd be
worth reading if not for that. Why so patronizing?
Poe
I haven't followed the many threads on this whole thing, but I will say
this: He supposedly carried the deception off for 24 years. I cannot
imagine he didn't make mistakes. I would go as far as to say it seems
impossible. Everyone, even a genius (Leopold, anyone?) does. Also,
people get lazy, and rely on old habits - like bullying the stupid wife
around.
Plus the notion she left her kids with him when she left for that stint
of time. Wtf - was she cool with him abusing them in her absence? That
bit was weird, and makes me wonder about her.
That she was completely unaware does not pass the smell test. How much
she knew may come out, but if I had to guess, I'd say she knew something
really shady was going on in the cellar, and she was unwilling to rock
her world by exploring it further; or worse, she did explore it further,
and knew. I am on the fence about whether it's the former or latter. I
don't think she encouraged it, though. This sick shit is not the kind of
thing that most minds can comprehend, let alone get into.
Peter Dworkin
<BillS...@Pittsburgh.com> wrote:
>
>Actually, her sarcasm is a direct response to your arrogance. You'd be
>worth reading if not for that. Why so patronizing?
Who put a dime in you?
earthage
When I first read that article, I thought the same thing about the
mother leaving
her children with him, what kind of mother would do that. But I'm not
sure the article is right. Remember most of the reporting from the
British papers is coming from the daily tabloids, they don't always
check facts. I think Rosemarie went to the inn in 1973 to manage it,
probably it was Josef's idea. Also I believe the inn is not open year
round, just the summer so I think she would have only been gone
summers, and the children may have been there with her. In fact,
Elisabeth worked at the inn as a teenager, he probably put all his
children to work.
I do think, though, Rosemarie stayed with Fritzl for security reasons,
as so many women did of that era, and even now. I'm surprised also
that she didn't notice changes in Elisabeth once the molestation began
or really question why Elisabeth ran away from home.
She had learnt to fear her domineering father from an early age and
offered him what appeared to be total obedience. "I don't know why it
was so, but my father simply chose me for himself," she told officers.
She revealed that Fritzl began sexually abusing her from the age of 11
– in the cellar, in his car and on walks through the forest. Deeply
ashamed and frightened of being found out, she did everything possible
to hide the truth from her friends and classmates. A former pupil at
her school recalled that Elisabeth was "terrified of not being home on
time", adding: "When we went to her home, we had to leave as soon as
her father appeared."
On two occasions, Elisabeth ran away from home but was picked up by
police and sent back each time.
earthage
Fritzl is said to be obsessively watching TV reports about the
incarceration and abuse of his daughter from his isolated cell.
He receives up to four bags of hate mail a day - but is said to remain
unrepentant. His wife Rosemarie, who police believe was completely
unaware of his double life, has also received hate mail.
One letter read: "You must have known when he went on holiday to
Thailand that he was messing around with children. Your sick
paedophile husband should kill himself."
Chocolic
"Poe" <hau...@terrible-thought.com> wrote in message
news:689st8F...@mid.individual.net...
I agree too. She had, "HAD", to be dumb as a rock if she is innocent in
all this. Why didn't she look for her daughter? Did she? I haven't read
all the threads on this, though I have tried to read a lot of them so maybe
I missed some stuff. If that stuff were mailed to her home in her
daughter's name, what the frick did she think? And the abandoned babies
showing up at the door, and she isn't further questioning it or trying to
find out where her daughter is? WTF? Was she maybe also abused and one of
those submissive wives that didn't fight back and just went with the flow
(some of those cases I've read I have always had a hard time relating to).
He's pilfering food and whatever from everybody else to take downstairs.
She didn't notice that? Did he molest and/or abuse any of the kids living
"upstairs"?? This is all so mind boggling.
What about the times before Elisabeth was caged in the dungeon. She was
being molested, and was a runaway. Where was her mother then? Why didn't
she notice anything. Did Elisabeth try to tell her what was going on.
Didn't her mother know about him making Elisabeth help build the mysterious
room downstairs? Didn't she ever want to check it out?
This is such a freakin sad case. How can monsters like that survive for so
long abusing so many, without anybody noticing or caring to pursue it.
Oh yea, it happens. Hitler, Jeffs, Jones....
This is so mind boggling (did I already say that?)...
Chocolic
Chocolic
"JonesieCat" <jonesi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:HTMTj.7868$ko5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
I think part of the blame should go to her. She is their mother. She's
supposed to protect her babies and she didn't. Maybe I'll change my mind if
I hear something different. Oftentimes when you hear of abuse cases, the
thing that hurts the victims more than anything was the non-abusing parent
not doing anything to help.
Chocolic
earthage
Chocolic wrote:
> I agree too. She had, "HAD", to be dumb as a rock if she is innocent in
> all this. Why didn't she look for her daughter? Did she? I haven't read
> all the threads on this, though I have tried to read a lot of them so maybe
> I missed some stuff.
> Chocolic
One friend said that Rosemarie would always check out homeless people
and
train stations to see if she might recognize her daughter.
JonesieCat
Clearly you are not very personally secure, nor in any way professionally
experienced with a longterm or broad range of mental maladies, disorders or
treatments. Now, I don't mind that. But you do sound silly, it's only fair
to tell you.
By your reckoning, Elisabeth is an offending parent.
Pls, pls kf me, it's in your own best interest, truly.
jc