Columbine massacre report released
Ralph
Sheriff’s report examines how, why of two teens’ killing spree
Students flee Columbine High School on April 20, 1999.
NBC NEWS AND WIRE REPORTS
LITTLETON, Colo., May 15 — An official recounting of the bloody
details of the Columbine High School massacre was released to families
of the victims and to the news media Monday. The sheriff’s report is the
culmination of a 13-month investigation but is already being questioned
— not for what happened on that terrible day, but for what did not.
THE REPORT, released Monday on CD-ROM, contains the results of
4,500 interviews and the examination of 10,000 pieces of evidence as
well as a minute-by-minute account of what happened when gunmen Eric
Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, carried out the massacre on April 20,
1999, killing 12 students and a teacher before turning their guns on
themselves.
In addition to text, the report contains audio and video
portions.
The report said the pair acted “with deadly precision” in
planning and executing the horrifying assault on their fellow students.
However, their plan ultimately failed, because a large number of the
explosive devices they planted around the school and which were planned
to go off in key areas like the cafeteria and the library, turned out to
be duds.
If the plan had succeeded, the report says, the casualty count
could easily have been in excess of 600 students.
OUT BY COURT ORDER
Angered by leaks and frustrated with delays, parents asked a
judge to order the sheriff to release his report. They received the
first copies Monday.
Fifteen lawsuits have been filed against police by victims and
parents.
Officials said they would have little to say outside the
report because of the lawsuits, which allege that police failed to heed
warnings about how dangerous the two gunmen were.
“Further interpretation or elaboration will not be possible at
this time because of pending lawsuits,” sheriff’s spokesman Steve Davis
told journalists as the report was distributed.
According to the report, all of the killing — 12 students and one
teacher — took place in just 16 minutes. Before the first ’911’ call was
made, two were dead and 10 more were shot.
According to the report, police were just arriving when Dylan
Klebold and Eric Harris ran into the library and spent seven and a half
terrifying minutes killing 10 more and wounding 11.
The final tally showed that Harris and Klebold fired a total of
188 shots — 111 from Harris, and 67 by Klebold. There were 141 shots
from 12 officers who fired weapons at the scene.
LINGERING QUESTIONS
However, attorneys for the victims and their families say that
police version neglects to address the question of how well authorities
responded before the massacre, as well as during it.
“The report talks nothing about the notice that the sheriff had
to the murderous propensities of these two young men, not only in
thoughts, but in their actions,” said attorney Walter Garash, who is
representing one of the wounded students.
Other lawsuits ask why it took so long for police tactical teams
to enter the school and hours more to get to the teacher who bled to
death. Those matters are not addressed in the report.
The report does try to answer one other question: Every bullet
fired, the sheriff says, was recovered, and no police bullets hit any
students.
Officials said the CD-ROM would be available to the public
Tuesday for $12 plus tax and shipping.
NBC News correspondent Roger O’Neil and Reuters contributed to
this story.
_____________________________________________________________________
I'm sure the killers would love the fact they appear on a CD-rom.
They were keen Doom 2 players, developing their own levels (of which I
have one, downloaded before AOL removed the trenchcoat site), so the
fact they made it to computer media would make them laugh.
Ralph
Teresa/Colorado
here's how to order.
Teresa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The public can order the Columbine investigation report through Quality Data
Systems of Boulder for $12 plus the applicable tax (for Colorado residents
the tax is 7.46 percent) plus shipping costs.
The firm, which plans an initial run of 500 copies of the CD-ROM, set up two
telephone order lines: (720) 317-1131 and (720) 317-1133. Mail-in orders can
be sent to QDS, 2450 Central, Boulder, CO 80301.
Other copies will be made as demand dictates.
Orders also may be placed over the Internet via Quality Data's Web site:
www.qualitydata.com/columbine.html.
To place an E-mail order, contact Quality Data at Colu...@wcox.com.
A spokesman for the company said Quality Data will accept Visa, MasterCard
and American Express cards. Personal checks and money orders also will be
accepted.
Orders can be shipped via United Parcel Service and Federal Express, but
must include UPS or FedEx account numbers.
All other orders will be shipped via U.S. Postal Service. The cost for
Postal Service delivery is 77 cents for the first CD-ROM ordered and 22
cents for each additional copy, the spokesman said.
Chuck Ryan
nauseating is that those that were not there, have no training in LE or
hostage situations or high risk entry or bomb disposal feel that they
are qualified to judge a "fucked up" situation and those officers that
were expected to save everyone that day. It was over in 16 minutes
according to my paper, but of course, no one knew that then. When you
walk a mile in our shoes or better yet, the shoes of those that were
actually there that day, then maybe, maybe you can comment and second
guess their efforts.
Chuck
<grew...@aolNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:39261074....@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> After reading the Columbine report, I am simply disgusted. Who wrote
> this thing, Sheriff Stone's 13-year old? The report is full of overly
> dramatic, maudlin and self-serving phrases, made in an obviously
> transparent attempt to paint "law enforcement" in as peachy a light as
> possible. The language of the report is immature, unprofessional and
> so biased toward the cops that is hard to read without becoming
> disgusted.
>
> The writer goes to extreme lengths to paint the cops as brave,
> efficient heros of the day, while simply ignoring or supresssing any
> mention of the cops' shameful incompetence. Example: NO discussion of
> why the cops ignored the sign saying "1 bleeding to death". Result,
> Dave Sanders spent HOURS bleeding to death. Another example: No
> mention of leaving Daniel Rohrbough's dead body out on the sidewalk
> for 24 hours (remember, the whole thing was over in 49 minutes), but
> this poor dead kid was left lying there until the next afternoon, in
> plain sight. There is NO mention of these things AT ALL in the
> "report".
>
> Disgusting. Simply nauseating.
PattyC4303
grew...@aolNOSPAM.net writes:
>"Chuck Ryan" <no__...@go.com> wrote:
>>Only because it didnt say what you wanted it to. Whats disgusting and
>>nauseating is that those that were not there, have no training in LE or
>>hostage situations or high risk entry or bomb disposal feel that they
>>are qualified to judge a "fucked up" situation and those officers that
>>were expected to save everyone that day. It was over in 16 minutes
>>according to my paper, but of course, no one knew that then. When you
>>walk a mile in our shoes or better yet, the shoes of those that were
>>actually there that day, then maybe, maybe you can comment and second
>>guess their efforts.
>
>Maybe if it was YOUR kid lying dead outside the school for the whole
>world and media to gape at for 24 hours, you'd see things differently.
>
>What was the excuse for this, since the cops knew by 3:30 pm that the
>killers were dead? And my point was...WHY wasn't this even MENTIONED
>in the report???
Wasn't the reason for the delay about the fact that they had no clue about the
possible BOMBS?
PattyC
Chuck Ryan
<grew...@aolNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:39293570....@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> "Chuck Ryan" <no__...@go.com> wrote:
> >Only because it didnt say what you wanted it to. Whats disgusting
and
> >nauseating is that those that were not there, have no training in LE
or
> >hostage situations or high risk entry or bomb disposal feel that they
> >are qualified to judge a "fucked up" situation and those officers
that
> >were expected to save everyone that day. It was over in 16 minutes
> >according to my paper, but of course, no one knew that then. When
you
> >walk a mile in our shoes or better yet, the shoes of those that were
> >actually there that day, then maybe, maybe you can comment and second
> >guess their efforts.
>
> Maybe if it was YOUR kid lying dead outside the school for the whole
> world and media to gape at for 24 hours, you'd see things differently.
Doubtful since I have training in this type of stuff and know what to
expect. Its called a "crime scene". Columbine was probably the largest
crime scene in American history with exeption of maybe the Federal
building or the World Trade Center bombing. If you screw up a crime
scene, you can likely dismiss any chance of finding others guilty of the
crime. Once the evidence is tampered with or moved, its over.
>
> What was the excuse for this, since the cops knew by 3:30 pm that the
> killers were dead?
There were 95 explosive devices to be dealt with...as well as all the
other issues that go along with clearing the building, making sure that
there are no other persons injured, dead or waiting to kill someone
else. They had reports of multiple gunmen, snipers, hostages...many of
these reports coming from the kids inside. I think you need to re-read
the report if you are going to sit here and judge the cops with your
complete lack of knowledge and the luxury of hindsight. You sure dont
see very many officers condeming what happened there...they know the
score.
Chuck
Chuck Ryan
<grew...@aolNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:392a5e14....@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> patty...@aol.com (PattyC4303) wrote:
> >>Maybe if it was YOUR kid lying dead outside the school for the whole
> >>world and media to gape at for 24 hours, you'd see things
differently.
> >>
the
> >>in the report???
> >
> >Wasn't the reason for the delay about the fact that they had no clue
about the
> >possible BOMBS?
>
> the third time, is WHY doesn't the report even acknowledge that the
> dead kid was left outside on the cold sidewalk for 24 HOURS, in plain
> sight of news media?
>
> They had bomb-sniffing dogs at the scene the same day of the
> shootings, so if they were worried about the kid being bomb-rigged,
> they had the dog to check. Yet the kid was left there all night and
> much of the next DAY!
>
> Understand now?
Another critic with NO experience in LE, SWAT procedure, bomb disposal,
entry tactics, evidence collection, crime scene analysis, etc. Its
called a crime scene and thats part of what you do if you havent
processed that area yet. Yes, it sucks. Yes, it looks bad, but if you
want to punish the bad people, crime scenes become kind of important,
and if you fuck them up, you can kiss any hope of convictions good bye.
Just because the known shooters were dead does not mean that you process
the crime scene willy nilly. You process it just as if no one had been
caught. Ill tell you this much...the two shooters did not act
alone....there will be arrests...maybe not today or tomorrow, but I can
promise you that they are still investigating this case and there were
others involved...maybe not there shooting, but certainly involved.
Now, would you want the evidence and the crime scene to be handled
haphazardly so as to risk dismissal of charges against those that share
responsibility?
Chuck
PattyC4303
"Chuck Ryan" <no__...@go.com> writes:
>Ill tell you this much...the two shooters did not act
>alone....there will be arrests...maybe not today or tomorrow, but I can
>promise you that they are still investigating this case and there were
>others involved...maybe not there shooting, but certainly involved.
Chuck,
Can you expound on the above?
PattyC
PattyC4303
grew...@aolNOSPAM.net writes:
>patty...@aol.com (PattyC4303) wrote:
>>>Maybe if it was YOUR kid lying dead outside the school for the whole
>>>world and media to gape at for 24 hours, you'd see things differently.
>>>
>>>What was the excuse for this, since the cops knew by 3:30 pm that the
>>>killers were dead? And my point was...WHY wasn't this even MENTIONED
>>>in the report???
>>
>>Wasn't the reason for the delay about the fact that they had no clue about
>the
>>possible BOMBS?
>
>Another person with a reading comprehension problem. The question, for
>the third time, is WHY doesn't the report even acknowledge that the
>dead kid was left outside on the cold sidewalk for 24 HOURS, in plain
>sight of news media?
>
>They had bomb-sniffing dogs at the scene the same day of the
>shootings, so if they were worried about the kid being bomb-rigged,
>they had the dog to check. Yet the kid was left there all night and
>much of the next DAY!
>
>Understand now?
I believe I understand your point. Though not sure how my question related to
reading comprehension, since you had not mentioned the idea of the dogs
sniffing the kid. (By the way, you may have asked someone more than once, but
I was responding to one question, so for me, I believe it would be the second
time....)
What else was around the boy lying there? Do bomb people automatically
*believe* the dog and that's it? If the building might still have been
potentially about to go up, might they have considered that having any others
than the bomb squad there too dangerous?
Don't see your point as to why the kid's being there needed to be in the
report. What in your kind opinion is the relevance to the point/purpose of the
report?
PattyC
SpinCity
<D3B4B3616B1A29F6.CEEED31E...@lp.airnews.net>,
"Chuck Ryan" <no__...@go.com> wrote:
>
> <grew...@aolNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
> news:392a5e14....@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
disposal,
> entry tactics, evidence collection, crime scene analysis, etc.
See? That's what Usenet is good for: making armchair quarterbacks out
of everyone.
They'll tell you how the cops should have responded, how the
journalists should have covered it; how the parents should have raised
their kids.
God love the Internet: It's made a busybody out of darn near everyone.
Its
> called a crime scene and thats part of what you do if you havent
> processed that area yet. Yes, it sucks. Yes, it looks bad, but if
you
> want to punish the bad people, crime scenes become kind of important,
> and if you fuck them up, you can kiss any hope of convictions good
bye.
> Just because the known shooters were dead does not mean that you
process
> the crime scene willy nilly. You process it just as if no one had
been
> caught. Ill tell you this much...the two shooters did not act
> alone....there will be arrests...maybe not today or tomorrow, but I
can
> promise you that they are still investigating this case and there were
> others involved...maybe not there shooting, but certainly involved.
> Now, would you want the evidence and the crime scene to be handled
> haphazardly so as to risk dismissal of charges against those that
share
> responsibility?
>
> Chuck
>
>
--
************************************************************************
NOT impressed with the press? Find alluring media criticism -- even
from within! -- at http://www.spincity-media.net
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
GLC1173
> See? That's what Usenet is good for: >making armchair quarterbacks out
>of everyone.
> They'll tell you how the cops should have >responded, how the
>journalists should have covered it; how the >parents should have raised
>their kids.
I seriously question many aspects of the report - starting with its
conclusion that Klebold and Harris, acting alone, brought all the bombs into
the school and placed them that day.
Just two of the bombs were large propane tanks weighing 20 pounds each - and
nobody noticed two outcast kids carrying in them and many others?
And shotgun ammo is bulky and heavy - yet Klebold and Harris alone, that
day, carried in so much of it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<B>Dissident news - plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather
<I> Al Gore - in his own words</I>
<A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT:
official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b>
Reality Bites
continued justification of the police tactics there just keep slapping me in
the face when I read them.
So let me see if I get you here, Chuck. The cops should leave a kid lying
there to bleed to death because it might interfere with their evidence
collecting if they ran in, grabbed him, toted him to safety, and possibly
saved his life?
Keep trying.
I still cannot believe the cowardice of the Columbine cops. Their uniforms
ought to be modified to include a big wide yellow stripe down the backside
of their uniforms just to match the ones on their fucking backs.
Merc
>In article <D3B4B3616B1A29F6.CEEED31E...@lp.airnews.net>,
>"Chuck Ryan" <no__...@go.com> writes:
>
>>Ill tell you this much...the two shooters did not act
>>alone....there will be arrests...maybe not today or tomorrow, but I can
>>promise you that they are still investigating this case and there were
>>others involved...maybe not there shooting, but certainly involved.
>
>Chuck,
>
>Can you expound on the above?
>
>PattyC
I wanted to respond too - just so I could write the name Chuck!
Merc
gemini...@ink.net
>
> <grew...@aolNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
> > "Chuck Ryan" <no__...@go.com> wrote:
> > >Only because it didnt say what you wanted it to. Whats disgusting
> and
> > >nauseating is that those that were not there, have no training in LE
> or
> > >hostage situations or high risk entry or bomb disposal feel that they
> that
> > >were expected to save everyone that day. It was over in 16 minutes
> > >according to my paper, but of course, no one knew that then. When
> you
> > >walk a mile in our shoes or better yet, the shoes of those that were
> > >actually there that day, then maybe, maybe you can comment and second
> > >guess their efforts.
> >
> > world and media to gape at for 24 hours, you'd see things differently.
>
> expect. Its called a "crime scene". Columbine was probably the largest
> crime scene in American history with exeption of maybe the Federal
> building or the World Trade Center bombing. If you screw up a crime
> scene, you can likely dismiss any chance of finding others guilty of the
> crime. Once the evidence is tampered with or moved, its over.
>
> >
> > killers were dead?
>
> other issues that go along with clearing the building, making sure that
> there are no other persons injured, dead or waiting to kill someone
> else. They had reports of multiple gunmen, snipers, hostages...many of
> these reports coming from the kids inside. I think you need to re-read
> the report if you are going to sit here and judge the cops with your
> complete lack of knowledge and the luxury of hindsight. You sure dont
> see very many officers condeming what happened there...they know the
> score.
>
> Chuck
>
> > in the report???
And here you left the question STILL unanswered!
Methinks you are making her point.
...geminiwalker
gemini...@ink.net
>
> <grew...@aolNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
> > patty...@aol.com (PattyC4303) wrote:
> > >>Maybe if it was YOUR kid lying dead outside the school for the whole
> > >>world and media to gape at for 24 hours, you'd see things
> differently.
> > >>
> the
> > >>in the report???
> > >
> > >Wasn't the reason for the delay about the fact that they had no clue
> about the
> > >possible BOMBS?
> >
> > Another person with a reading comprehension problem. The question, for
> > the third time, is WHY doesn't the report even acknowledge that the
> > dead kid was left outside on the cold sidewalk for 24 HOURS, in plain
> > sight of news media?
> >
> > They had bomb-sniffing dogs at the scene the same day of the
> > shootings, so if they were worried about the kid being bomb-rigged,
> > they had the dog to check. Yet the kid was left there all night and
> > much of the next DAY!
> >
> > Understand now?
>
> Another critic with NO experience in LE, SWAT procedure, bomb disposal,
> called a crime scene and thats part of what you do if you havent
> processed that area yet. Yes, it sucks. Yes, it looks bad, but if you
> want to punish the bad people, crime scenes become kind of important,
> and if you fuck them up, you can kiss any hope of convictions good bye.
> Just because the known shooters were dead does not mean that you process
> the crime scene willy nilly. You process it just as if no one had been
> alone....there will be arrests...maybe not today or tomorrow, but I can
> promise you that they are still investigating this case and there were
> others involved...maybe not there shooting, but certainly involved.
> haphazardly so as to risk dismissal of charges against those that share
> responsibility?
>
> Chuck
Yeah, that's what they said about the OK bombing, too.
...geminiwalker
Conal Fitzgerald
> Columbine was probably the largest
> crime scene in American history with exeption of maybe the Federal
> building or the World Trade Center bombing.
You forgot Washington DC. Just string tape around the whole damn city and be
done with it.
--
Conal -- http://conal.homepage.com
"Day and night we are watching over your welfare.
It is for your sake that we drink that milk and
eat those apples." -- George Orwell
Dr. Rco Noyfb
>
> > > >walk a mile in our shoes or better yet, the shoes of those that were
> > > >actually there that day, then maybe, maybe you can comment and second
> > > >guess their efforts.
> > >
> > > world and media to gape at for 24 hours, you'd see things differently.
> >
> > > What was the excuse for this, since the cops knew by 3:30 pm that the
> > > killers were dead?
> >
> And here you left the question STILL unanswered!
> Methinks you are making her point.
The question has been answered, but not to your satisfaction,
obviously. Maybe as a non-LE with a little bit more than a layman's
understanding of LE practices, I can use words that you'll comprehend.
Certainly, I feel for the deceased and their families. Unfortunately,
(in terms of morbidity) the body of a deceased, who has been declared
legally dead, is considered _evidence_. Evidence, on the other hand, is
_not touched_ until the crime scene is _secured_. The priority is to
secure the scene before any investigation begins. Only when the
investigation begins will evidence be handled in any way. As a crime
scene, Columbine CERTAINLY could not be considered secured until every
person at the scene had been rescued and identified. Second, EOD
technicians had to identify and deactivated _all_ explosive devices.
This isn't something that can be done quickly and easily. Once the
scene is secured, detectives and crime scene technicians can analyze the
data. That means looking at it IN ITS PLACE. Once the evidence has been
gathered, catalogued, etc (much like an archaeological excavation) THEN
it can be moved. As a former archaeologist who has spent DAYS
collecting and cataloging materials from a site, I'm suprised that the
LEOs were able to do this in ONLY 24 hours. Granted, they didn't have
to dig things up as much as Arch-ies do, but the process is very
similar, as is the effort to piece together the facts based on how the
evidence was mapped, catalogued, etc on the scene.
If ya don't want to learn how police do things by talking to them open
mindedly, then go volunteer to be a part of an archaeological dig.
Watch how long it takes to collect data properly and then to put the
pieces together in order to understand the site. You'll be amazed.
Dr. Rco Noyfb, Ph.D.
Chuck Ryan
talking about.
Chuck
Reality Bites <rea...@getsomeofit.com> wrote in message
news:si4atg...@news.supernews.com...
Chuck Ryan
Chuck
<gemini...@ink.net> wrote in message
news:39229976...@earthlink.net...
> Chuck Ryan wrote:
> >
> > <grew...@aolNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
> > news:39293570....@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> > > "Chuck Ryan" <no__...@go.com> wrote:
> > > >Only because it didnt say what you wanted it to. Whats
disgusting
> > and
> > > >nauseating is that those that were not there, have no training in
LE
> > or
> > > >hostage situations or high risk entry or bomb disposal feel that
they
> > > >are qualified to judge a "fucked up" situation and those officers
> > that
> > > >were expected to save everyone that day. It was over in 16
minutes
> > > >according to my paper, but of course, no one knew that then.
When
> > you
> > > >walk a mile in our shoes or better yet, the shoes of those that
were
> > > >actually there that day, then maybe, maybe you can comment and
second
> > > >guess their efforts.
> > >
> > > Maybe if it was YOUR kid lying dead outside the school for the
whole
> > > world and media to gape at for 24 hours, you'd see things
differently.
> >
> > Doubtful since I have training in this type of stuff and know what
to
> > expect. Its called a "crime scene". Columbine was probably the
largest
> > crime scene in American history with exeption of maybe the Federal
> > building or the World Trade Center bombing. If you screw up a crime
> > scene, you can likely dismiss any chance of finding others guilty of
the
> > crime. Once the evidence is tampered with or moved, its over.
> >
> > >
> > > What was the excuse for this, since the cops knew by 3:30 pm that
the
> > > killers were dead?
> >
> > There were 95 explosive devices to be dealt with...as well as all
the
> > other issues that go along with clearing the building, making sure
that
> > there are no other persons injured, dead or waiting to kill someone
> > else. They had reports of multiple gunmen, snipers, hostages...many
of
> > these reports coming from the kids inside. I think you need to
re-read
> > the report if you are going to sit here and judge the cops with your
> > complete lack of knowledge and the luxury of hindsight. You sure
dont
> > see very many officers condeming what happened there...they know the
> > score.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > And my point was...WHY wasn't this even MENTIONED
> > > in the report???
>
> And here you left the question STILL unanswered!
> Methinks you are making her point.
>
> ...geminiwalker
Chuck Ryan
processing. They are relating what happened that day, not Crime Scene
101. Look at it this way, if they go into the details of how crime
scenes are processed, then they would likely have another 10,000 pages
on Columbine.
Chuck
"Got it now?"
Chuck Ryan
Reality Bites
lying around bleeding to death while the police are hiding behind their
squad cars. That isn't going to go away just because you'd like it to. The
needs were dire and immediate. The response was much less.
Chuck Ryan
school in a matter of minutes. You have NO clue as to the situation and
what occurs. You have NO understanding of the issues that day. You
WERE NOT there. You have NO training. You have NO experience. You
have NO education in these matters. People died that day because of two
very well armed, very well prepared, very disturbed people. They did
not die because of anything that the cops did or didn't do. By rushing
into the building, others would have died. Please tell me how that
would have helped anyone. Tripwires and almost 100 bombs were strewn
about the school. As soon as the first wire was found, the whole
scenario changed yet again. Cops, rescue personnel and others would not
have helped too many people had they themselves become victims.
Remember also that there were many, many reports of other shooters,
snipers and additional information flowing from the first shot. Each
report had to be considered truthful and determined one way or the other
as they went along. You also might want to consider that until
Columbine, no law enforcement agency in the world was prepared for a
situation of this magnitude. Communications were sparse and the ad hoc
SWAT team had little in the way of proper equipment in the rush to get
in the building in a timely manner. No, you don't have any of the
facts, but you certainly have all the criticism. Walk a mile in their
shoes and then get back to me.
Chuck
Reality Bites <rea...@getsomeofit.com> wrote in message
news:si6n8vb...@news.supernews.com...
Chuck Ryan
<grew...@NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:3923f3a8...@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> "Chuck Ryan" <no__...@go.com> wrote:
>
> > People died that day because of two
> >very well armed, very well prepared, very disturbed people. They did
> >not die because of anything that the cops did or didn't do. By
rushing
> >into the building, others would have died.
>
> You have NO understanding of the issues that day. You WERE NOT there.
> You have NO training. You have NO experience. You have NO education
> in these matters.
Actually I do have the understanding, the training, the experience and
the education in matters similar to this. As a law enforcement
professional for over 10 years, Ive had quite a bit more experience and
training than either you or the original poster had.
>
> >Tripwires and almost 100 bombs were strewn
> >about the school. As soon as the first wire was found, the whole
> >scenario changed yet again.
>
> Beeeep. Wrong. There were NO "tripwires". None at ALL. Where in the
> report do you see any evidence of "tripwires"? Obviously, YOU are the
> one with "no clue".
I seem to remember that there were tripwires found. This was from an
early report, so It may have been debunked. If I am wrong, I sincerely
apologize. I have not read the released "final" report, so Ill have to
check. Regardless of the fact, it *still* does not change the severity
of the situation. It also does not change the fact that YOU still do
not know what you are talking about.
Chuck
Reality Bites
clutz. Does nobody have any common sense or balls anymore?
All of this, well gee, they had guns and planted bombs and they might have
hurt our fellow cops. They thought they were just terrorists and might be
issuing demands. My brothers were merely securing the scene. We all know
your brothers were pissing their pants and tripping over their own feet.
Until a cop gets hurt, it is full bore into a situation as dire and
immediate as this. That is what you are fucking paid for. And then after
one of you gets hurt it is re-evaluate and bore on. You engage the
situation as it unfolds, but you lay your life down for those children if
you have to you. That is your job. If you think otherwise, you need not be
a cop.
What the fuck do you have at your side? What the fuck is that locked to
your tree? What the fuck is in your trunk? Those cops had everything they
needed to take out those punks. And they would have known the pukes were
out of it and the wounded and dying could have been tended to.
PattyC4303
writes:
>And AGAIN, the question is dodged. The question is, and always has
>been this...Why wasn't the fact that Daniel Rohrbach's body was left
>on the sidewalk for more than 24 hours after the shooters were dead
>MENTIONED in the "report"?
>
>Now read carefully before spouting off again, the question isn't WHY
>the body was left there. It is WHY the report failed the disclose this
>fact. Got it now?
Hi Grumpy,
I thought I gave you an possible answer yesterday. Maybe it isn't relevant to
the point/purpose of the report?
Pleasantly,
PattyC
Teresa/Colorado
It's easy to second guess the police actions or inactions when
we now know so much about what happened that day. But,
this article points out other areas of concern that were never
mentioned in their 'official' report.
Teresa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Columbine report sparks questions
Jeffco sheriff's office account of tragedy leaves too much unanswered, its
critics say
By Kevin Vaughan
and Gary Massaro
Denver Rocky Mountain News Staff Writers
--------------------------------------------------
It was supposed to answer all the questions. It only sparked more.
A voluminous report by the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office covering the
April 20, 1999, tragedy at Columbine High sparked a new round of criticism
Tuesday from some who lost loved ones.
"I think it's a slick Madison Avenue promotional campaign for the sheriff's
department," said attorney Jim Rouse, who represents two families who have
filed suit over the tragedy. "Obviously, they're trying to make it look as
difficult as possible, and themselves as heroic as possible.
"I think it's interesting what's not in the report."
The report made little or no mention of some of the key questions that the
victims' families have been asking:
What was taken from the homes of the killers, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold?
What did the killers' parents, Wayne and Kathy Harris and Tom and Susan
Klebold, have to say when they were interviewed by investigators?
What did the department really do after being told 13 months before the
rampage that Harris was building pipe bombs and plotting mass murder?
Could any of those who died in the library have been saved if someone had
gotten to them sooner?
Did the SWAT teams move as quickly as they could have?
Why does the report contain time discrepancies?
Sheriff John Stone - and other officials - have refused to answer questions
about the report, released Monday on CD-ROM.
"On the advice of its attorneys, any further elaboration and interpretation
of the details contained in the Sheriff's Office report on the shootings are
not possible," said a terse statement released by Stone's office Tuesday
morning.
The report sketched biographies of Harris and Klebold, but it included only
snippets from their parents and did not go into any detail about what items
investigators seized from their homes. It also said nothing about the
questions asked of the killers' parents.
For example, on home movies the teen-agers filmed in the weeks leading up to
their rampage, Harris talked about his father discovering a pipe bomb, and
taking a call from a gun shop intended for him.
Were they questioned about it by authorities? The report doesn't say.
"The report is really devoid of anything that happened prior to the day of
the shooting," Rouse said.
Similarly vague is the department's handling of the March 1998 report from a
friend that Harris had threatened to kill him and had authored hate-filled
Web pages that spoke of mass murder and pipe bombs.
In the report, four paragraphs were devoted to the incident. It noted that
"further investigation was initiated but no additional information was
developed."
The report goes into vivid detail on the death of one of the two students
killed outside, Daniel Rohrbough.
"Klebold went back down the stairs to the area outside the cafeteria and
shot Rohrbough, killing him instantly," the report said.
The report does not, however, note whether any of the other victims died
"instantly." Ten of those killed lost their lives in the library, which
wasn't reached by SWAT officers until nearly four hours after the shootings.
Rohrbough's family has sued Stone's office, alleging that a deputy's bullets
killed him.
"I guess you'd have to ask them why they elaborated so much on his death and
not any of the others," Rouse said.
Finally, the SWAT teams came under renewed criticism after the report
revealed that after they reached Dave Sanders - a teacher who was mortally w
ounded after leading hundreds of students to safety - they waited a
half-hour for a paramedic. In the meantime, he died.
"I'm so confused," said Melody Smith, Sanders' sister-in-law.
She noted that two SWAT team members had put Sanders in a chair and moved
him toward a storage area, but not any farther.
"I don't understand why those two hefty SWAT guys didn't carry Dave out of
there - if they moved him that far," she said. "Those two boys (students
Aaron Hancey and Kevin Starkey) were ready to carry him out of there on a
table."
Missing from the report were the 911 calls from the science room where
Sanders and other teachers and students holed up for hours after the
shootings.
"There were at least two 911 calls made from the science room where my dad
was," said Angela Sanders. "And neither one was on there."
Some questioned why it took so long to reach Sanders and the library when
dispatchers were told within minutes that victims were in those rooms.
Critiquing the SWAT response, however, is difficult. Several experts
contacted by the Denver Rocky Mountain News said they weren't qualified to
offer an opinion because they hadn't read the report.
"It is real easy to say that with reckless abandon you just rush in and do
things," said Maj. Steve Ijames of the Springfield, Mo., Police Department,
a SWAT expert.
Sometimes, he said, complicated situations required careful responses.
Finally, the report contained a meticulous timeline of the events of April
20, but still included some unexplained discrepancies.
For example, since April 20, 1999, authorities have keyed on 11:21 a.m. as
the moment the tragedy began unfolding. A moment of silence was held at that
time on the first anniversary of the tragedy.
But the report's timeline shows that Harris and Klebold opened fire at 11:19
a.m. The first 911 call came at 11:21 a.m. - reporting what turned out a
diversionary bomb three miles from the high school.
The confusion persists in the report. In one section on the findings of the
team that investigated the events outside the school is a headline that
said: "It's now 11:25 a.m. Only four minutes have passed."
Similarly, the first 911 call about the shootings at the school came at
11:23 a.m., according to the timeline. But in the section of the report
where the tapes are listed, an icon places the call at 11:19 a.m.
Contact Kevin Vaughan at (303) 892-5019 or vaug...@RockyMountainNews.com.
Chuck Ryan
> I don't give a shit how many trip wires were found. Step over them
you
> clutz. Does nobody have any common sense or balls anymore?
Uh yeah and dead cops and rescuers are no good to anyone.
>
> All of this, well gee, they had guns and planted bombs and they might
have
> hurt our fellow cops. They thought they were just terrorists and
might be
> issuing demands. My brothers were merely securing the scene. We all
know
> your brothers were pissing their pants and tripping over their own
feet.
Im sure they were quite scared just as anyone would have been in that
situation...except you of course. Too bad you werent there to save the
day.
>
> Until a cop gets hurt, it is full bore into a situation as dire and
> immediate as this.
So just keep going until all the cops are killed or injured huh? Great
plan Einstein. Because you dont have any experience in this sort of
situation, you cannot possibly understand how uneducated and ill formed
your ideas are.
That is what you are fucking paid for. And then after
> one of you gets hurt it is re-evaluate and bore on.
Sure..get everyone killed. Duh, we are trying to avoid further loss of
life.
You engage the
> situation as it unfolds
Actually you dont. You TRY to prevent the situation, but in this case,
it was involving too rapidly for anyone to effectively deal with it. I
really wish you had been there. You just have all the answers.
, but you lay your life down for those children if
> you have to you. That is your job. If you think otherwise, you need
not be
> a cop.
No shit Sherlock. DEAD COPS CAN SAVE NO ONE . Are you just this
fucking stupid or what? Go get some training, go learn SWAT procedure,
Go learn tactical entry, go learn how to deal with bombs all over the
damn place then tell everyone how to do the job.
>
> What the fuck do you have at your side? What the fuck is that locked
to
> your tree? What the fuck is in your trunk? Those cops had everything
they
> needed to take out those punks.
Sure they did. And your vast LE experience and knowledge about the
situation and the job at hand tells you this right? Again, Dead cops
are no good to anyone. What if, under your advisement, a whole gaggle
of officers had run into the school willy nilly and detonated one of the
big ass bombs they found? That would be kind of a major fuck up dontcha
think? 15 Dead cops. Dead because they were too stupid to do some
recon and planning. You DO NOT rush into a building with armed gunmen
inside. Thats tactical suicide and a poor plan. What if by rushing in,
the cops "forced the hand" of the gunmen and they did something that
caused more deaths? You would be here crying about the Rambo cops. You
sound like that guy here that was saying to pull out the windows.
Ooops..collapse....dead kids. You know nothing, have no experience and
are too stupid to know when you are fucked (read: the Columbine
situation).
And they would have known the pukes were
> out of it and the wounded and dying could have been tended to.
Sure and what about all the calls from the kids inside the school
telling the dispatcher about MULTIPLE GUNMEN (some described as wearing
Tshirts and some described as wearing brown dusters)? What about the
calls of snipers? What about the calls in regards to hostage
situations? You wont get your head out of your ass long enough to
understand that EVERY call received that day in regards to the school
had to be investigated and determined whether or not it was true. Rumor
and panic slowed a lot of things down. Then the bomb situation
furthered the mess. Yeah, you are some piece of work. Fucking armchair
hero. Go get some education and get back to me.
Chuck
>
>
>
Reality Bites
Chuck Ryan wrote in message
<46CCAE21FCC7F344.A7A74DDB...@lp.airnews.net>...
>
>Reality Bites <rea...@getsomeofit.com> wrote in message
>news:si6tk2...@news.supernews.com...
>> I don't give a shit how many trip wires were found. Step over them
>you
>> clutz. Does nobody have any common sense or balls anymore?
>
>Uh yeah and dead cops and rescuers are no good to anyone.
The live ones weren't much use either.
>> All of this, well gee, they had guns and planted bombs and they might
>have
>> hurt our fellow cops. They thought they were just terrorists and
>might be
>> issuing demands. My brothers were merely securing the scene. We all
>know
>> your brothers were pissing their pants and tripping over their own
>feet.
>
>Im sure they were quite scared just as anyone would have been in that
>situation...except you of course. Too bad you werent there to save the
>day.
I guess so. I wouldn't have stood by and watch kids bleed to death that's
for damn sure.
>> Until a cop gets hurt, it is full bore into a situation as dire and
>> immediate as this.
>
>So just keep going until all the cops are killed or injured huh? Great
>plan Einstein. Because you dont have any experience in this sort of
>situation, you cannot possibly understand how uneducated and ill formed
>your ideas are.
You know as well as I do that many more cops are on the way if not there
already. Certainly you wouldn't do this by yourself, but with three or four
to enter, it should not have been a problem. You also need a couple for
flanking cover and communication. Five officers would have been enough to
safely engage and gather the full situation.
> That is what you are fucking paid for. And then after
>> one of you gets hurt it is re-evaluate and bore on.
>
>Sure..get everyone killed. Duh, we are trying to avoid further loss of
>life.
*We*? I didn't know you were there. There was much that *you* could have
been done to save more lives. Why do *you* insist on just letting those
you've sworn to protect and serve bleed to death? This was not the Austin
tower where cops didn't have high powered rifles to reach the shooter. You
lay down a field of cover and you go in and get those that are bleeding to
death.
> You engage the
>> situation as it unfolds
>
>Actually you dont. You TRY to prevent the situation, but in this case,
>it was involving too rapidly for anyone to effectively deal with it. I
>really wish you had been there. You just have all the answers.
This situation was dire and immediate, there was nothing else to prevent.
Those that were bleeding to death needed attention right now.
And I do not have all the answers, but I know this one. Most gunshot deaths
occur because the victim bleeds to death.
>, but you lay your life down for those children if
>> you have to you. That is your job. If you think otherwise, you need
>not be
>> a cop.
>
>No shit Sherlock. DEAD COPS CAN SAVE NO ONE . Are you just this
>fucking stupid or what? Go get some training, go learn SWAT procedure,
>Go learn tactical entry, go learn how to deal with bombs all over the
>damn place then tell everyone how to do the job.
That's just it, Watson, they should not have waited for SWAT. The situation
was too dire and immediate. Sometimes, that is the way it is.
>> What the fuck do you have at your side? What the fuck is that locked
>to
>> your tree? What the fuck is in your trunk? Those cops had everything
>they
>> needed to take out those punks.
>
>Sure they did. And your vast LE experience and knowledge about the
Except the balls.
>situation and the job at hand tells you this right? Again, Dead cops
>are no good to anyone. What if, under your advisement, a whole gaggle
>of officers had run into the school willy nilly and detonated one of the
>big ass bombs they found? That would be kind of a major fuck up dontcha
>think? 15 Dead cops. Dead because they were too stupid to do some
>recon and planning. You DO NOT rush into a building with armed gunmen
>inside. Thats tactical suicide and a poor plan. What if by rushing in,
>the cops "forced the hand" of the gunmen and they did something that
>caused more deaths? You would be here crying about the Rambo cops. You
>sound like that guy here that was saying to pull out the windows.
>Ooops..collapse....dead kids. You know nothing, have no experience and
>are too stupid to know when you are fucked (read: the Columbine
>situation).
Watson, once again, you persue a tactical two by two man covering advance.
Any 10 year old that has ever played Army knows how to do it. Certainly all
of you excellently trained and superiorly educated public servants know how
to do it.
> And they would have known the pukes were
>> out of it and the wounded and dying could have been tended to.
>
>Sure and what about all the calls from the kids inside the school
>telling the dispatcher about MULTIPLE GUNMEN (some described as wearing
>Tshirts and some described as wearing brown dusters)? What about the
>calls of snipers? What about the calls in regards to hostage
>situations? You wont get your head out of your ass long enough to
All the more reason to see what the actual situation is and fast.
>understand that EVERY call received that day in regards to the school
>had to be investigated and determined whether or not it was true. Rumor
Nonsense. The officers were converging on the scene from miles around. The
scene itself had to dictate the immediateness of the required action.
>and panic slowed a lot of things down. Then the bomb situation
>furthered the mess. Yeah, you are some piece of work. Fucking armchair
>hero. Go get some education and get back to me.
I don't need an iota of education to see your spew.
You're the piece of work. You think your job is merely to count the dead
bodies, fill out the paperwork for the insurance, and then collect that big
fat pension. You're all big and brave when you know you have overwhelming
odds. But when it comes to getting into the shit, you fail to muster. The
objective here was not to minimize officer casualties, Watson, but to save
civilian lives. At least that is what it should have been. It obviously
was not.
Here's what it boils down to. If even one civilian life could have been
saved, the police failed miserably. And as harsh as this truth is, this is
the real truth. If it meant sacrificing every officer on that campus to
save even one child's life, then all of those cops should now be dead. Do
you understand? Can you understand? That is your job and your duty. Add
that to your education, Watson.
Chuck Ryan
Gee, you need to read the report. Read about the kids airlifed, taken
to hospitals and other treatment areas.
>
> >> Until a cop gets hurt, it is full bore into a situation as dire and
> >> immediate as this.
> >
> >So just keep going until all the cops are killed or injured huh?
Great
> >plan Einstein. Because you dont have any experience in this sort of
> >situation, you cannot possibly understand how uneducated and ill
formed
> >your ideas are.
>
> You know as well as I do that many more cops are on the way if not
there
> already. Certainly you wouldn't do this by yourself, but with three
or four
> to enter, it should not have been a problem. You also need a couple
for
> flanking cover and communication. Five officers would have been
enough to
> safely engage and gather the full situation.
Communication was part of the problem! 3 or 4 officers to enter? Great
and when they get injured? Hell, get a few more, got plenty left.
>
> > That is what you are fucking paid for. And then after
> >> one of you gets hurt it is re-evaluate and bore on.
> >
> >Sure..get everyone killed. Duh, we are trying to avoid further loss
of
> >life.
>
> *We*? I didn't know you were there.
"We" as in the cops, asshole.
There was much that *you* could have
> been done to save more lives.
Agreed.
Why do *you* insist on just letting those
> you've sworn to protect and serve bleed to death?
Again, go read the final report.
This was not the Austin
> tower where cops didn't have high powered rifles to reach the shooter.
You
> lay down a field of cover and you go in and get those that are
bleeding to
> death.
Uh, no, no you dont. Whats your experience and training again?
>
>
> > You engage the
> >> situation as it unfolds
> >
> >Actually you dont. You TRY to prevent the situation, but in this
case,
> >it was involving too rapidly for anyone to effectively deal with it.
I
> >really wish you had been there. You just have all the answers.
>
> This situation was dire and immediate, there was nothing else to
prevent.
> Those that were bleeding to death needed attention right now.
Those were being dealt with. See the final report.
>
> And I do not have all the answers, but I know this one. Most gunshot
deaths
> occur because the victim bleeds to death.
Really? Wow..who would have thunk it?
>
> >, but you lay your life down for those children if
> >> you have to you. That is your job. If you think otherwise, you
need
> >not be
> >> a cop.
> >
> >No shit Sherlock. DEAD COPS CAN SAVE NO ONE . Are you just this
> >fucking stupid or what? Go get some training, go learn SWAT
procedure,
> >Go learn tactical entry, go learn how to deal with bombs all over the
> >damn place then tell everyone how to do the job.
>
> That's just it, Watson, they should not have waited for SWAT. The
situation
> was too dire and immediate. Sometimes, that is the way it is.
Wrong. Youre average beat cop does NOT know, as in, has NO TRAINING, in
large scale operations and entry into buildings where there may be
baricaded subjects and a host of other unknowns. Thats why there are
SWAT teams.
>
> >> What the fuck do you have at your side? What the fuck is that
locked
> >to
> >> your tree? What the fuck is in your trunk? Those cops had
everything
> >they
> >> needed to take out those punks.
> >
> >Sure they did. And your vast LE experience and knowledge about the
>
> Except the balls.
Opinions are like assholes.
Again I refer you to our training which does not include doing a 2 by 2
of a 250,000 sq. ft building.
>
> > And they would have known the pukes were
> >> out of it and the wounded and dying could have been tended to.
> >
> >Sure and what about all the calls from the kids inside the school
> >telling the dispatcher about MULTIPLE GUNMEN (some described as
wearing
> >Tshirts and some described as wearing brown dusters)? What about the
> >calls of snipers? What about the calls in regards to hostage
> >situations? You wont get your head out of your ass long enough to
>
> All the more reason to see what the actual situation is and fast.
I think you meant, all the more reason to run in there and get everyone
killed because we had no plan, no training and no brain.
>
> >understand that EVERY call received that day in regards to the school
> >had to be investigated and determined whether or not it was true.
Rumor
>
> Nonsense. The officers were converging on the scene from miles
around. The
> scene itself had to dictate the immediateness of the required action.
Wrong.
>
> >and panic slowed a lot of things down. Then the bomb situation
> >furthered the mess. Yeah, you are some piece of work. Fucking
armchair
> >hero. Go get some education and get back to me.
>
>
> I don't need an iota of education to see your spew.
You need an iota of a lot of things Mr. Smart Guy.
>
> You're the piece of work. You think your job is merely to count the
dead
> bodies, fill out the paperwork for the insurance, and then collect
that big
> fat pension. You're all big and brave when you know you have
overwhelming
> odds. But when it comes to getting into the shit, you fail to muster.
The
> objective here was not to minimize officer casualties, Watson, but to
save
> civilian lives. At least that is what it should have been. It
obviously
> was not.
Again, go read the final report.
>
> Here's what it boils down to. If even one civilian life could have
been
> saved, the police failed miserably. And as harsh as this truth is,
this is
> the real truth.
If you want to talk about failure, start with the parents of the
shooters...then you can talk to the school...then you might have a case
to talk to sheriff, but what happened that day no one could have
prevented. Youre a fool and an idiot to think otherwise.
If it meant sacrificing every officer on that campus to
> save even one child's life, then all of those cops should now be dead.
Do
> you understand? Can you understand? That is your job and your duty.
Add
> that to your education, Watson.
Uh huh, I know what my duty is. You have NO idea what duty is. Go play
army man some more and be ready for the call when Columbine 2 erupts.
Chuck
>
>
>
Chuck Ryan
like there was. Hmm, fraud perpetration? Sounds like a mistake to me.
Thats ok, we are all human...some more than others of course.
Chuck
<grew...@NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:392516d7...@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> "Reality Bites" <rea...@getsomeofit.com> wrote:
> >I don't give a shit how many trip wires were found. Step over them
you
> >clutz.
>
> There were NO "tripwires" whatsover. Another fraud perpetutated by the
> JeffCo sheriff's office.
Reality Bites
>> If it meant sacrificing every officer on that campus to
>> save even one child's life, then all of those cops should now be dead.
>>Do
>> you understand? Can you understand? That is your job and your duty.
>>Add that to your education, Watson.
>
>Uh huh, I know what my duty is. You have NO idea what duty is. Go play
>army man some more and be ready for the call when Columbine 2 erupts.
I see that if it ever came down to you putting your butt on the line for my
kids, my kids will be dead too. But, I already knew that.
ants in my sink
> I know what I'm talking about. And you do too. I am talking about people
> lying around bleeding to death while the police are hiding behind their
> squad cars. That isn't going to go away just because you'd like it to.
The
> needs were dire and immediate. The response was much less.
>
This brings to mind the Oklahoma bombing. When the rescuers were trying to
dig people out of the wreckage, there was a *second* bomb scare. I'm sure
you all saw it on television. They showed the rescuers running away from
the building because of it. One rescuer was crying because he said that the
person he was trying to dig out was crying, "Don't leave me here" but the
rescuer had no choice but to leave until the bomb scare was proven to be
untrue.
maura
>
>
Steve
"Reality Bites" <rea...@getsomeofit.com> wrote in message
news:si6n8vb...@news.supernews.com...
> I know what I'm talking about. And you do too. I am talking about people
> lying around bleeding to death while the police are hiding behind their
> squad cars. That isn't going to go away just because you'd like it to.
That's an unfair characterization any way you look at it. How nice that
you're able to make order now out of the chaos that existed then. Of course
you saw uniformed cops taking cover on perimeter (thanks to live TV
coverage), but you seem to ignore the fact that there were teams inside the
school helping people get out while methodically clearing the building?
> The needs were dire and immediate. The response was much less.
The response was prudent. The lawsuits and complaints were inevitable.
Steve
Steve
"Teresa/Colorado" <ctf...@home.com> wrote in message
news:AmJU4.10274$m7.14...@news1.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> The official Columbine report left many questions unanswered.
> It's easy to second guess the police actions or inactions when
> we now know so much about what happened that day. But,
> this article points out other areas of concern that were never
> mentioned in their 'official' report.
This is an interesting article. I note, however, that many of the "areas of
concern" that it points out would be of questionable value even if
addressed.
> What was taken from the homes of the killers, Eric Harris and Dylan
Klebold?
Aside from the curiosity factor - what difference does it make? Should
someone have realized that something was wrong with those boys BEFORE the
incident? No doubt they should have and they probably did, but who would
have predicted something of this nature happening? What would a publicized
log of items taken from the homes of the deceased killers be expected to
show?
> What did the killers' parents, Wayne and Kathy Harris and Tom and Susan
> Klebold, have to say when they were interviewed by investigators?
Again, good fodder for the news media and something that probably SHOULD be
in any official report on the investigation of the shootings, but what dark
secret might it's absence really indicate? It's not like anything the
parents might say is going to change what happened that day. When looking
for answers about why this happened you shouldn't forget that lawsuits have
already been filed and this is now about money (taxpayers money) more than
anything else. It might sound cold, but why spoon-feed the plaintiffs?
> What did the department really do after being told 13 months before the
> rampage that Harris was building pipe bombs and plotting mass murder?
They might have dropped the ball on this aspect? I really don't know. But do
you have any idea how many bizarre accusations are fielded by police
departments in this country every year? Can you conceive the man-hours it
requires to follow up each and every one? Would you support throwing out
little things like 4th amendment concerns in favor of increased safety?
After all, a parent's claim that their kid was threatened by another is not
in and of itself enough to get a warrant with?
> Could any of those who died in the library have been saved if someone had
> gotten to them sooner?
Probably the teacher would have made it, but now that we're all blessed with
the benefits of hindsight it sounds like such a simple question to ask. That
day you had shots fired, bombs exploding, sprinklers and alarms going
off.... It wasn't exactly a walk in the park.
> Did the SWAT teams move as quickly as they could have?
I think so. Some obviously disagree.
> Why does the report contain time discrepancies?
Take a look at the many clocks and watches in any individual home. Chances
are you'll find at least a couple with discrepencies of a minute or two (and
that's really what we're talking about here)? The report seems a compilation
authored collectively by people who were using various sources for time
telling?
> Sheriff John Stone - and other officials - have refused to answer
questions
> about the report, released Monday on CD-ROM.
I would too. Litigation has various step that will bring about those answers
where they truly need to be answered. Even the most well-intended publicity
pre-trial has a nasty habit of biting you in court.
> "On the advice of its attorneys, any further elaboration and
interpretation
> of the details contained in the Sheriff's Office report on the shootings
are
> not possible," said a terse statement released by Stone's office Tuesday
> morning.
Who knows attorneys better than other attorneys?
Steve
Conal Fitzgerald
> I seem to remember that there were tripwires found. This was from an
> early report, so It may have been debunked.
If it was in an early report, then it would likely be a more accurate
representation of what the officers perceived as the situation, and
therefore, what they had to act on at the time.
Steve
> I don't give a shit how many trip wires were found. Step over them you
I never heard anything about tripwires, but it seems to me that confusion
was a major cause for any delays or perceived delays...
> All of this, well gee, they had guns and planted bombs and they might have
> hurt our fellow cops. They thought they were just terrorists and might be
> issuing demands. My brothers were merely securing the scene. We all know
> your brothers were pissing their pants and tripping over their own feet.
You're a bitter little putz and not the least bit qualified to judge any of
the things men do requiring courage (IMO).
> Until a cop gets hurt, it is full bore into a situation as dire and
> immediate as this. That is what you are fucking paid for.
Full bore charges are more the trademarks of the military. We're supposed to
go in and yet make sure that NOBODY, including the bad guys, gets hurt...
>And then after one of you gets hurt it is re-evaluate and bore on. You
engage the
> situation as it unfolds, but you lay your life down for those children if
> you have to you. That is your job. If you think otherwise, you need not
be
> a cop.
How nice you can summarize such a complex responsibility in so few lines.
Steve
Conal Fitzgerald
> I see that if it ever came down to you putting your butt on the line for my
> kids, my kids will be dead too.
And the gene pool will thank him for it.
Conal Fitzgerald
> Could any of those who died in the library have been saved if someone had
> gotten to them sooner?
Sure. With a sniper team across the street, a squad waiting inside, and a
well trained, well organized team to evacuate the students to a safe location
well away from the school, and with all these in place, say, 20 minutes
before the first shot was fired, I'd be willing to bet there would have been
no more than two deaths that day.
> Did the SWAT teams move as quickly as they could have?
Obviously the should have called the Psychic Friends Network very quickly.
> Why does the report contain time discrepancies?
Because people had better things to do than stare at their watches, maybe?
> The report sketched biographies of Harris and Klebold,
Yippee. Just what the world needs. For those of you who don't have it, the
Cliff's Notes follow.
"Psychotic freaks."
> For example, on home movies the teen-agers filmed in the weeks leading up to
> their rampage, Harris talked about his father discovering a pipe bomb,
So? Maybe it's just because I lived in the country, but I don't consider
teenagers wanting to play with explosives to be that strange. Somehthing to
have a talk with them about, yes, but not immediate evidence that they're
going to go postal.
> and taking a call from a gun shop intended for him.
About what? Did the guy want to tell him his MP-5 was ready? This, in
itself, just doesn't mean a whole lot.
Hell, my parents had me working in a gun shop as soon as I legally could.
> Rohrbough's family has sued Stone's office, alleging that a deputy's bullets
> killed him.
That should be pretty easy to determine.
> "I guess you'd have to ask them why they elaborated so much on his death and
> not any of the others," Rouse said.
Because they had better eyewitness accounts of it?
> Finally, the SWAT teams came under renewed criticism after the report
> revealed that after they reached Dave Sanders - a teacher who was mortally w
> ounded after leading hundreds of students to safety - they waited a
> half-hour for a paramedic.
Damn those paramedics that don't guarantee ten-minute service. What were they
supposed to do? Do SWAT teams carry M5 kits and trained surgeons these
days? The last I heard, they generally had first aiders, but that tends to
be of limited use when someone's been shot in a vital area.
> "I don't understand why those two hefty SWAT guys didn't carry Dave out of
> there - if they moved him that far," she said.
Again, across a big open area visible from the upstairs windows.
> "Those two boys (students Aaron Hancey and Kevin Starkey) were ready
> to carry him out of there on a table."
And possibly get themselves shot by a sniping psycho.
> "It is real easy to say that with reckless abandon you just rush in and do
> things," said Maj. Steve Ijames of the Springfield, Mo., Police Department,
> a SWAT expert.
It's real easy to lay in the coffin after you rushed in, too.
Kurt Sims
> news:si6tk2...@news.supernews.com...
In article <39241...@news.cybertours.com>, "Steve"
fur...@cybertours.com> wrote:
> >And then after one of you gets hurt it is re-evaluate and bore on. You
> engage the
> > situation as it unfolds, but you lay your life down for those children
> > if
> > you have to you. That is your job. If you think otherwise, you need
> > not
> be
> > a cop.
>
> How nice you can summarize such a complex responsibility in so few lines.
>
> Steve
>
>
It always amazes me how people think they have the easy answers to
horrible situations. Something tells me that Reality Bites doesn't have
a job with any real responsibility, never mind a job where peoples lives
depend on his performance at least I hope he doesn't. Easy answers to
questions involving life and death are usually wrong.
--
To reply by email please remove the two spams out of my return address.
Reality Bites
>In alt.law-enforcement Reality Bites <rea...@getsomeofit.com> wrote:
>
>> I see that if it ever came down to you putting your butt on the line for
my
>> kids, my kids will be dead too.
>
>And the gene pool will thank him for it.
Here's yet another piece of shit paper shuffler riding for a pension.
Fuck all of you chicken shit coward bastards.
Conal Fitzgerald
> Here's yet another piece of shit paper shuffler riding for a pension.
> Fuck all of you chicken shit coward bastards.
Anybody else reminded of the fat guy in _American History X_?
gemini...@ink.net
You also might want to consider that until
> Columbine, no law enforcement agency in the world was prepared for a
> situation of this magnitude.
Try Waco.
How about Oklahoma City.
They sure had opportunities to learn how to be prepared.
...geminiwalker
gemini...@ink.net
Yeah, you are some piece of work. Fucking armchair
> hero. Go get some education and get back to me.
>
> Chuck
>
> >
> >
> >
You must be new here.
You would be surprised how smart some of the
people in this newsgroup are.
Of course, they have learned how to think
things through.
...geminiwalker
Reality Bites
My job and life has nothing to do with anything. The inaction of the police
at Columbine is what is at issue here. How can you possibly support that
inaction in the same breath that you call yourselves public servants and
protectors. The plain bald truth of the matter is that you do not serve the
public, you serve yourselves and the perpetuation of your institution. You
ruin far more lives than you save. You wouldn't know sacrifice or duty or
honor or integrity if it walked up and slapped you in the face. They are
merely words for you to tout whenever it suits your purpose. Its protect my
butt and the butts of my brother officers first. That is wrong, so were the
600+ cops at Columbine, and so are you.
The honorable and equitable thing in this matter is to fess up and learn
from your mistakes. And say that, yes, we acted like cowards, we could have
and should of saved one or maybe two or three of those kids and that
teacher. But you would rather go to the grave supporting the lies that you
represent. So once again the honorable thing will not happen. I'm not
under the same delusion you are, I already know that. All I can do is point
your delusion out to you and give you the take from a common man.
Dr. Rco Noyfb
>
> And AGAIN, the question is dodged. The question is, and always has
> been this...Why wasn't the fact that Daniel Rohrbach's body was left
> on the sidewalk for more than 24 hours after the shooters were dead
> MENTIONED in the "report"?
That's it. That's your only beef. You are either satisfied with, or
don't care about the explanations as to why it happened, but you're
miffed that it isn't in the report?!?!? A ton of valid questions have
been raised, and that's your beef.
Well, there probably aren't any JCSO representatives in either of these
news groups, so I doubt anyone here could answer that specific
question. And it seems that if that is your beef, then your beef isn't
with anyone here, either. But let's speculate a minute. Why didn't the
report even mention fact that Daniel Rohrbach's body was left on the
sidewalk for more than 24 hours after the shooters were dead.....
Hmmm. Maybe because the whole damn world already knows it happened, and
the report is only intended to provide new information (that isn't still
considered confidential)? Maybe because the incident is still an open
investigation, and the report is limited in scope (again, not divulging
certain information that might jeopardize any future prosecutions)?
Maybe because there is pending litigation from Rohrbach's family, and
therefore the JCSO cannot comment on the issue (standard practice for
ANY civil defendant)? Just how much info would _you_ be willing to
share if you had pending litigation, either as procesutor or defendant?
Your attorneys would tell you one thing. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.
Chuck Ryan
Chuck
Conal Fitzgerald <co...@ShellYeah.Org> wrote in message
news:waYU4.7288$nm6....@news-east.usenetserver.com...
Chuck Ryan
Well I can certainly see how you are qualfied to judge the police on a
situation no one had ever dreamed of yet everyone expected perfection.
Things in life dont work out like they do on TV.
The inaction of the police
> at Columbine is what is at issue here. How can you possibly support
that
> inaction in the same breath that you call yourselves public servants
and
> protectors.
There was _NO_ inaction you moron. READ THE REPORT
The plain bald truth of the matter is that you do not serve the
> public, you serve yourselves and the perpetuation of your institution.
Actually if we get killed and maimed under your direction and what you
think should have occured that day, what has been acomplished?
You
> ruin far more lives than you save.
Speak for yourself. I for one have saved several lives. How about you?
You wouldn't know sacrifice or duty or
> honor or integrity if it walked up and slapped you in the face.
Screw you. You probably needed the spellchecker to get integrity right.
Just like all the other crap you are vomiting here, you dont know thing
one about any of the officers here. Youre mad and you are taking it out
on those of us that hold a different, accurate view of what happened
that day. Again, you better go read the report. 16 minutes....
They are
> merely words for you to tout whenever it suits your purpose. Its
protect my
> butt and the butts of my brother officers first. That is wrong, so
were the
> 600+ cops at Columbine, and so are you.
Yada yada yada....more expert commentary from Terry "Lazy Boy" Bradshaw
>
> The honorable and equitable thing in this matter is to fess up and
learn
> from your mistakes.
Sorry, it was being unprepared that was the downfall that day...not
mistakes. Just why do you think NOW departments are training for the
next Columbine?
And say that, yes, we acted like cowards, we could have
> and should of saved one or maybe two or three of those kids and that
> teacher.
Well there was a shit load of people that were taken to hospitals, Did
they all die? No? Thought not...
But you would rather go to the grave supporting the lies that you
> represent.
There are no lies. We know how the job is. You do not. You know
nothing.
So once again the honorable thing will not happen. I'm not
> under the same delusion you are, I already know that. All I can do is
point
> your delusion out to you and give you the take from a common man.
You are the diluted one. You have no grasp on reality and you want the
cops to be like on TV. Well cowboy, we aint Chuck Norris and we aint
Ahnold. The situation was fucked up from the word go. BTW, how about a
little blame on the parents of the shooters? Ask them how bombs could
be constructed in their gargage for over a year and no one noticed.
Honestly? I think some blame can be attributed to the Sheriffs
department for not investgating the complaints on the shooters from a
year or so prior to the shootings. Although, since I dont know what
transpired in the complaint or its nature or what was actually done, I
cannot comment on what should have been. See? Thats how you are
supposed to do it when you dont have all the facts...but thats ok, keep
running around calling the cops cowards...99.9% of the people know it
wasnt like that and it was a nightmare for the cops to deal with.
Another thing...why dont you join up with the cops? We could sure use
someone with a big S on their chest and no brain.
Chuck
>
>
>
Chuck Ryan
would not be so ignorant to things in which we cannot control.
Chuck
<gemini...@ink.net> wrote in message
news:3924848A...@earthlink.net...
Chuck Ryan
Chuck
<grew...@NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:3925fe46...@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> "Reality Bites" <rea...@getsomeofit.com> wrote:
>
> >My job and life has nothing to do with anything. The inaction of the
police
> >at Columbine is what is at issue here. How can you possibly support
that
> >inaction in the same breath that you call yourselves public servants
and
> >protectors. The plain bald truth of the matter is that you do not
serve the
> >public, you serve yourselves and the perpetuation of your
institution. You
> >ruin far more lives than you save. You wouldn't know sacrifice or
duty or
> >honor or integrity if it walked up and slapped you in the face. They
are
> >merely words for you to tout whenever it suits your purpose. Its
protect my
> >butt and the butts of my brother officers first. That is wrong, so
were the
> >600+ cops at Columbine, and so are you.
> >
> >The honorable and equitable thing in this matter is to fess up and
learn
> >from your mistakes. And say that, yes, we acted like cowards, we
could have
> >and should of saved one or maybe two or three of those kids and that
> >teacher. But you would rather go to the grave supporting the lies
that you
> >represent. So once again the honorable thing will not happen. I'm
not
> >under the same delusion you are, I already know that. All I can do
is point
> >your delusion out to you and give you the take from a common man.
>
> Well said, man.
Chuck Ryan
Waco: 50+ heavily armed people in a 50 some odd day stand off with
Federal Agents trying to work a deal. Kooky Koresh incinerates his
followers and everyone perishes but a few lucky folks.
Columbine: Nope, not real similar
Oklahoma City: Big ass bomb goes off and kills almost 200 people.
Columbine: Nope, no similarities there either
As for being prepared, I think you can see the Elian Gonzales case as
one that was learned from Waco. Get in, get out, dont fuck around and
dont set yourself up for a standoff. OK city, Look around at some of
your government buildings...see the concrete baricades? Thats to
prevent similar situations. I know here in my city, patrols have been
stepped up in and around the buildings and the larger vehicles, like
panel trucks, are eyed a bit more closely. Especially around the
anniversaries of the events being discussed.
Columbine was very different in that nothing like it had happened before
and certainly not on the scale that it happened. With all the factors
involved, its a miracle that others did not perish. Thankfully the
shooters were shitty bomb builders and used a poor quality powder.
Having had bomb recognition and explosives training, I can tell you that
you would likely be suprised to know how easy it is to create a volitle
bomb from items in your home, let alone obtaining specific equipment to
do the job "properly". The gunmen had so much in their favor...suprise,
firepower (where none other was present), familiarity of terrain and,
most of all, time. They had the jump on those that would try to stop
them. The police had no plan for this type of situation and did not
even have a blueprint of the building (which is pretty standard for SWAT
in larger cities) The building being over 250,000 sq. ft did not help
matters any either and then you can factor in that the fire alarm and
sprinkler system was creating one hell of a racket. Their communcations
were less than adequate with the many agencies being on different
frequencies and being dispatched from many sources. IOW, no one was on
the same sheet of music. Time is the enemy in situations like this and
I have no doubt in my mind that the officers there wanted to go in and
do everything that they could. Their training and common sense
prevented it. You do not go into a building where gunmen have control
of it unless you very prepared. With the many reports of multiple
shooters, snipers on the roof and other gunmen that were not associated
with the other shooters, it was slow going indeed. Each report has to
be verified one way or the other for the safety of all. I could go on,
but whats the point? You believe what you want, I'll take the facts
thank you very much.
Chuck
<gemini...@ink.net> wrote in message
news:392483BE...@earthlink.net...
Antigen
on the bandwaggon behind my being a cock sucking, transvestite biker bitch
crack whore.
Lots of people were actually there that day. Some are dead now. None of
those were cops. Some were willing to risk their lives to rescue the
injured. Again, none of those were the cops. Some are grieving parents. You
have some nerve dissing those folks, especially after your less than
flattering charicterization of the former chief of the San Jose PD.
Are you really psyops, or just so brainwashed that you do this sort of thing
in your spare time for fun?
Chuck Ryan wrote:
> Only because it didnt say what you wanted it to. Whats disgusting and
> nauseating is that those that were not there, have no training in LE or
> hostage situations or high risk entry or bomb disposal feel that they
> are qualified to judge a "fucked up" situation and those officers that
> were expected to save everyone that day. It was over in 16 minutes
> according to my paper, but of course, no one knew that then. When you
> walk a mile in our shoes or better yet, the shoes of those that were
> actually there that day, then maybe, maybe you can comment and second
> guess their efforts.
>
> Chuck
>
> <grew...@aolNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
> news:39261074....@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> > After reading the Columbine report, I am simply disgusted. Who wrote
> > this thing, Sheriff Stone's 13-year old? The report is full of overly
> > dramatic, maudlin and self-serving phrases, made in an obviously
> > transparent attempt to paint "law enforcement" in as peachy a light as
> > possible. The language of the report is immature, unprofessional and
> > so biased toward the cops that is hard to read without becoming
> > disgusted.
> >
> > The writer goes to extreme lengths to paint the cops as brave,
> > efficient heros of the day, while simply ignoring or supresssing any
> > mention of the cops' shameful incompetence. Example: NO discussion of
> > why the cops ignored the sign saying "1 bleeding to death". Result,
> > Dave Sanders spent HOURS bleeding to death. Another example: No
> > mention of leaving Daniel Rohrbough's dead body out on the sidewalk
> > for 24 hours (remember, the whole thing was over in 49 minutes), but
> > this poor dead kid was left lying there until the next afternoon, in
> > plain sight. There is NO mention of these things AT ALL in the
> > "report".
> >
> > Disgusting. Simply nauseating.
--
Ginger Warbis (remove the obvious) <WebMistress...@fornits.com>
<a href="http://fornits.com/books">Something to read</a>?
<a href="http://fornits.com/cgibin/quote.cgi">Random aphorism</a>
Boycot the Census - send a congressman home!
Reality Bites
Chuck Ryan wrote in message
>> So once again the honorable thing will not happen. I'm not
>> under the same delusion you are, I already know that. All I can do is
>>point
>> your delusion out to you and give you the take from a common man.
>
>You are the diluted one. You have no grasp on reality and you want the
To someone that is hellbent on trying to make me appear uneducated, the past
tense of the verb 'delude' is 'deluded'. Which is the verbal derivation of
the noun 'delusion' that I used above. Spell checkers just don't pick up
when your own lack of education and intelligence imbues you to use the wrong
word. Though an excellent grammar checker might pick this one up, the one
from Microsoft will not.
This one is kind of cute. I would label it a Bunkerism. Which is about
your intelligence level - that of Archie Bunker (i.e., an IQ that is right
around 65 or 70, tops).
Chuck Ryan
proving me right in the end.
Chuck
Reality Bites <rea...@getsomeofit.com> wrote in message
news:si964o2...@news.supernews.com...
>
> Chuck Ryan wrote in message
> <50BC9B499CD36902.FBF92057...@lp.airnews.net>...
> >
> >Reality Bites <rea...@getsomeofit.com> wrote in message
> >news:si8mk18...@news.supernews.com...
>
> >> So once again the honorable thing will not happen. I'm not
> >> under the same delusion you are, I already know that. All I can do
is
> >>point
> >> your delusion out to you and give you the take from a common man.
> >
> >You are the diluted one. You have no grasp on reality and you want
the
>
Chuck Ryan
Antigen <Anti-s...@Fornits.com> wrote in message
news:392496E0...@Fornits.com...
> Boy, Chucky, when I didn't say what you wanted me to say, you jumped
right
> on the bandwaggon behind my being a cock sucking, transvestite biker
bitch
> crack whore.
?? Youre painting that picture sweetie..not me.
>
> Lots of people were actually there that day. Some are dead now. None
of
> those were cops. Some were willing to risk their lives to rescue the
> injured. Again, none of those were the cops.
Um, excuse me? I think you better read the report and get back to me.
Some are grieving parents. You
> have some nerve dissing those folks, especially after your less than
> flattering charicterization of the former chief of the San Jose PD.
Dissing? Im not your homeboy. I is not dissing anyone. Tha killas
peeps didnt have the 411 to see what be happenin in tha crib.
>
> Are you really psyops, or just so brainwashed that you do this sort of
thing
> in your spare time for fun?
LOL..pot, kettle, black
Chuck
Reality Bites
ants in my sink wrote in message ...
>> I know what I'm talking about. And you do too. I am talking about
people
>> lying around bleeding to death while the police are hiding behind their
>> squad cars. That isn't going to go away just because you'd like it to.
>> needs were dire and immediate. The response was much less.
>>
>
>
>dig people out of the wreckage, there was a *second* bomb scare. I'm sure
>you all saw it on television. They showed the rescuers running away from
>the building because of it. One rescuer was crying because he said that
the
>person he was trying to dig out was crying, "Don't leave me here" but the
>rescuer had no choice but to leave until the bomb scare was proven to be
The difference in these situations is that the second bomb risks the lives
of all of the rescuers involved. Who would rescue the rescuers? Many of
which were civilians anyway.
In Columbine, as far as the initial police on the scene were concerned,
there was boukou amount of help coming. As soon as 5 or 6 cops were on the
scene, they should have sought out the perpetrators to prevent further lose
of civilian life. As far as I am concerned, being a cop is just like being
a soldier, your life is no longer yours when you sign on that dotted line.
You lay your life down if necessary to protect those you are assigned to
protect. That does not mean that you merely piss your life into the wind.
But it does means you take those excessive risks and enter buildings that
are booby trapped and seek to thwart those armed invaders that are running
amok shooting people.
Reality Bites
the get go. If can't take any, don't sling any.
Reality Bites
>
>> Here's yet another piece of shit paper shuffler riding for a pension.
>> Fuck all of you chicken shit coward bastards.
>
>Anybody else reminded of the fat guy in _American History X_?
>
>--
>Conal -- http://conal.homepage.com
> "Day and night we are watching over your welfare.
> It is for your sake that we drink that milk and
> eat those apples." -- George Orwell
Conal, is that your name or the shape of your head?
Reality Bites
LOL.
GBrycki
>bodies, fill out the paperwork for the insurance, and then collect that big
>fat pension. You're all big and brave when you know you have overwhelming
>odds. But when it comes to getting into the shit, you fail to muster. The
>objective here was not to minimize officer casualties, Watson, but to save
>civilian lives. At least that is what it should have been. It obviously
>was not.
Well said. VERY well said.
If there is a bigger self-serving lot on the face of the Earth then the police,
I'd like to know who they are. In a nation full of crybabies...no one cries
louder then the police.
Hell...I'D have tried to get in there to save those kids, and I'm no Rambo.
The police at Columbine should be branded as the cowards they proved themselves
to be.
BRY
GBrycki
>Fuck all of you chicken shit coward bastards.
>
Indeed. Why bother to have the police at all? They pretty much admit that
when it comes down to it, they'll put their own well being first...even before
the well being of CHILDREN.
BRY
GBrycki
>horrible situations. Something tells me that Reality Bites doesn't have
>a job with any real responsibility, never mind a job where peoples lives
>depend on his performance at least I hope he doesn't. Easy answers to
>questions involving life and death are usually wrong.
>
Sometimes, things ARE that simple. When children are being killed, YOU DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
Any MAN who would do LESS is LESS of a MAN.
BRY
GBrycki
>shooters...then you can talk to the school...then you might have a case
>to talk to sheriff, but what happened that day no one could have
>prevented. Youre a fool and an idiot to think otherwise.
As opposed to being a coward...like the Columbine Cops.
>Uh huh, I know what my duty is. You have NO idea what duty is. Go play
>army man some more and be ready for the call when Columbine 2 erupts.
Ah...the typical lame cop excuse: "You don't know what it's like to walk a
mile in my shoes".
BTW..do you cops (I'm guessing you are one...you speak as if you are) EVER
admit to wrongdoing, foul ups, etc? It's disgusting how you all cover for one
another. If there was ever a group that could dish it out but not take it, it's
the police.
What I'd like to know is how the cops who hid behind their vehicles can
possibly live with themselves? How can their wives and children stand to be
around them?
BRY
GBrycki
>
The only thing the cops are good for in a situation like this is to draw the
chalk outline around the corpse.
BRY
PattyC4303
(GBrycki) writes:
OK. Maybe I am missing something, and I note this posting seems to be cross
posted, though god knows, I don't "get" how to make it show up only in atc.
But, I have a question. Aside (I hope!) from the ONE question posted by the
guy so hepped up about the report not containing anything about the kid lying
dead outside too long.
May I ask honestly... WHAT is the beef as to the cops, swat team, rescuers,
etc.? I mean, what did they do WRONG? What should they have done differently?
What makes anyone call them cowards? (I am hoping for more of an answer than
just they didn't move a dead body.) NOT demeaning how awful that was for that
individual's family. JUST wondering if there is more than that. Is there
something someone could have/should have done to save the bleeding teacher? IF
so, what exactly, and when?
I ask this because I don't know what I can tell from what I heard on the news
that the "officials" should have done differently (remembering what THEY knew
at the time of the event).
PattyC
Steve
<gemini...@ink.net> wrote in message
news:392873A0...@earthlink.net...
> Chuck Ryan wrote:
> >
> > No, Im not new here and No, they havent thought thing one out or they
> > would not be so ignorant to things in which we cannot control.
> >
> > Chuck
>
> people really think about cops when they don't
> have to worry about getting shot or falsely
> arrested for saying so.
And you call the Columbine cops cowards? What do you suppose would really
happen to you for expressing your thoughts face to face with most cops? If
you're paranoid enough I suppose you could imagine just about anything, but
the reality of things is that we hear both criticism and praise of the jobs
we do on an almost daily basis and the numbers aren't necessarily slanted
the way you'd like to suggest...
Steve
Steve
<gemini...@ink.net> wrote in message
news:39287663...@earthlink.net...
> Steve wrote:
> > There are indeed some smart people who regularly express negative
opinions
> > of police actions, but oddly few seem willing to put their genius into
> > action with anything more than nice SAFE newsgroup posts...
> >
> > Steve
>
> If you are referring to me (and I presume you are)
> I simply am not here to argue. I am here to dialogue.
> I am here to share.
Hmmmm? Looked a little more like you might be here to snipe? To express a
negative opinion about the actions of the cops at Columbine and imply that
you personally are much more brave and/or would have handled things quite
differently? A dialog may contain differing perspectives and to "share"
implies that you're submitting something more positive than simple
criticism. Like I said, put your genius into action. Show us how you would
have handled things were you in charge. There's nothing wrong with being
critical, but if you're being critical just for the sake of telling the
world that you don't like cops then don't go feeling like you're doing
something all original...
> I am here to confer with like minded individuals in such a way that there
is
> foreward movement in the effort to minimize the
> increasing threat of global crime that does so
> much damage to so many.
Does that translate into something like you're here to cheer about any post
that reflect negatively on law enforcement or is that just my impression?
> If you are here to fight, there are many like you
> who will by happy to comply. I'm not one of them.
That's not exactly what I wanted. I simply wanted to hear you clarify your
position or explain the air of superiority that you seem to be trying to
project? I presume that you count yourself among those "smart people" you
mentioned before?
Steve
Reality Bites
news:kl1W4.77032$fV.48...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...> news:sifsme...@news.supernews.com...
> > I think if the action of the police had been correct and without
> hesitation,
> > some of these kids could have been spared all physical harm. Many
> officers
> > were poised on the scene when most of the fatal shots were fired.
> >
> And here you reveal your standard. Perfection, delivered instantly.
In matters of life and death, there is little room for error.