Sleepers - fact or fiction?
PScheiderC
then I have seen mention in this ng of "Sleepers" being fictional. I understood
that identifying names & facts were changed to avoid any problems for the boys
involved but what else has ben brought to light about the book? Any
references/web sites would be great.
Thanks ------------- Paula
Jack1Olsen
Right, KK, but I'll be damned if I'll go through the explanation all over
again. Yes, the book is a shameless hoax -- not a word of truth in it. No,
Carcaterra never had the decency to admit it and neither did his publisher or
the moviemaker. They took their millions and ran. At least two dozen sources
from the NYTimes to the London Times to Time Magazine to the South China
Morning Post to the
Washington Post put the lie to the book, and the coup de grace was administered
by an international investigative agency which was hired by the Catholic
Church and churned up every antecedent character (all marginal figures from
Carcaterra's childhood) and learned that not one of them had done any of the
horrific things alleged in SLEEPERS or even close.
Anyone with a really serious interest in this dead horse can find my earlier
posts in deja. news or perhaps even in an Internet search.
Jack
http://www.jackolsen.com.
PScheiderC
choose to defraud the public. I truly am disappointed. I handsold that book
like you wouldn't believe during my tenure w/Waldenbooks & now I feel
completely duped. I will go hunting for the facts as you suggested. Please
don't ruin my day by telling me "Midnight in the Garden of Good & Evil" was
largely fictional too or I may never be able to trust a book jacket again!
Regards........ Paula
Every9man
From: jack1...@aol.com (Jack1Olsen)
Date: Sun, 23 January 2000 02:54 AM EST
Message-id: <20000123025453...@ng-cv1.aol.com>
Jack
http://www.jackolsen.com.
******************
Voila!
"Hi Barbara --
"Yes, SLEEPERS was a hoax from one end to the other, and was so proven in
a thorough investigation by investigators hired by the Catholic Church,
whose priests and other functionaries were libeled in the book.
"SLEEPERS was based on bits and pieces of information from Carcaterra's
own (rather sheltered) life as a kid in Hell's Kitchen. Six of us
non-fiction authors petitioned Ballantine Books to re-issue it as a
novel. They ignored us, of course, all the way to the bank.
"Carcaterra's book reminded me of a remark Mary McCarthy made about
Lillian Hellman: "Every word she writes is a lie, including 'the' and
'a'."
"One wishes for the old (straightforward) days.
"But come to think of it, Truman Capote wrote IN COLD BLOOD in the old
straightforward days, and it was full of embellishment and embroidery,
including interviews with people Truman never saw and scenes (including
the ending) that came from his own imagination.
"And I read recently that one of my all-time favorite escape books,
PAPILLON, was a fraud based on stories the author learned from other
prisoners and presented as his own.
"Makes a guy wonder about Deuteronomy."
and
"Dozens of individuals and agencies looked into the SLEEPERS matter and
came to the conclusion that it was an obvious fake -- and I include the
Washington Post, Time, London Times, Los Angeles Times, Baltimore Sun
and the AP.
"The Catholic Church's contribution was to hire an internationally
respected investigative agency to run down the specific source of each
of Carcaterra's embroideries, show how he amplified each nugget of fact,
and produce witnesses who could confirm that nothing in the book ever
happened.
"Maybe I'm dense, but I don't understand your connection between the
church's disgraceful defense of pedophillic priests and its exemplary
actions in the Carcaterra case. Will everything Catholic now be stained
by the church's bobbing and weaving to defend some rotten-apple priests?
"Take it from this lifelong atheist -- the Virgin Mary isn't gonna like
this.
"<<. scenes in the "reform school" seemed to be written by someone who
knew
>what
>they were talking about from experience, IMNSHO. >>
"Yes, to most members of the population. That's why book and movie were
huge successes. Me, I was on page three when I first realized that my
old friend Lorenzo had written a hoax. Journalist friends wondered why
it took me so long.
"BTW, this man who convinced you that he "knew what he was talking about"
was absent 19 days during his entire school career at Sacred Heart in
Hell's Kitchen. When did he serve that horrifying year in the
reformatory?
"Etc. etc. etc."
I kept them to remind me how easily I can be hoodwinked!
Barbara
Every9man
From: psche...@aol.com (PScheiderC)
***********************
I know how you feel Paula. I was more than swept up in an emotional storm that
he book produced for me.
Jack rained on my parade.
It seems to be partly one of the reasons that Jack has decided to stop writing
"true crime" books and that's really a true crime.
I'm also very wary now and I dont like it at all.
Barbara
Meaningful Dialogue
be added to the group of liars. I used to be a true crime reader until
I found out what a sham that book was.
M D
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Every9man
From: Meaningful Dialogue <meaningfu...@my-deja.com>
M D
Good , the pot is fine the way it is. Joe was the first on my list and the
first time I ever heard of the phenomenon of writing fiction under the name of
true crime.
Barbara
Samuel Sands
Meaningful Dialogue wrote:
> <snippers>
> Not to "stir up the pot" again, but Joe McGinnis "Fatal Vision" should
> be added to the group of liars. I used to be a true crime reader until
> I found out what a sham that book was.
Would you be willing to delineate the reasons this book was a "sham"?
I'm curious.
Sam Sands
Jack1Olsen
> Please don't ruin my day by telling me "Midnight in the Garden of Good &
Evil" was largely fictional too or I may never be able to trust a book jacket
again!>>>
I hate to be cast in this role of "expert" on the provenance of some of our big
bestsellers, since I'm in the business myself and it can be perceived as sour
grapes (and often is), but since you asked:
In MIDNIGHT IN THE GARDEN OF GOOD AND EVIL, author John Berendt cast himself as
one of the characters in a series of events that took place before he came on
the scene. I thought this was a bit of a shuck and also unfair to the great
majority of non-fiction authors whose ethical sensibilities require them to
stick to the facts. On the other hand, it was a brilliantly wrought work and
probably would've been a bestseller even if Berendt hadn't hyped his own role.
I can make no such defense for the sloppily written SLEEPERS. I still believe
that in a just world, Lorenzo Carcaterra, his editor and his publisher would
still be serving time for literary fraud. Instead, they made off with millions.
Jack
http://www.jackolsen.com.
PScheiderC
>as
>one of the characters in a series of events that took place before he came on
>the scene. I thought this was a bit of a shuck and also unfair to the great
>majority of non-fiction authors whose ethical sensibilities require them to
>stick to the facts. On the other hand, it was a brilliantly wrought work and
>probably would've been a bestseller even if Berendt hadn't hyped his own
>role.
>
That much I had read about & I was willing to "suspend disbelief" in that case.
I fought with my DM at Waldenbooks (who never read a book in her life) over the
placement of "Midnight...." I felt True Crime or even Gay Studies but the
company placed it in Social Sciences. I found the movie's recreation of John
Berendt as a heterosexual love interest was the most self-serving. God forbid
America be subjected to a story filled with homosexuals.
I was fortunate enough to be visiting Savannah when "the book" was first out &
I fell in love with the locale, the story & the characters.
Thank you for your input -- any author who sites Darcy O'Brien as a favorite
will always be "an expert" in this field. And, by the way, your works also
always sold well. "Son" was a particular favorite of mine.
------ Paula
Jack1Olsen
the best. By coincidence, I learned the inside story of MIDNIGHT IN THE GARDEN
OF GOOD AND EVIL at a writers' conference in Brunswick Ga., where Darcy and I
spoke, along with Berendt, Tom Cook and Aphrodite Jones.
Keep in touch.
Every9man
From: Samuel Sands <ssa...@bellsouth.net>
Meaningful Dialogue wrote:
> <snippers>
> Not to "stir up the pot" again, but Joe McGinnis "Fatal Vision" should
> be added to the group of liars. I used to be a true crime reader until
> I found out what a sham that book was.
Would you be willing to delineate the reasons this book was a "sham"?
I'm curious.
Sam Sands
>
>
> M D
>
I have a feeling that MD is as reluctant as I am to delve into that cesspool of
a discussion again. I'd suggest you read the last chapter in Fatal Justice by
Jerry Potter and Fred Bost.
They provide all the stunning details of just which lies Joe McGinnis had to
admit to in his testimony when he was sued by Jeffrey MacDonald.
Barbara
Samuel Sands
Every9man wrote:
A simple "no" would have sufficed. Thanks anyway. You couldn't even list
several? <sigh> :^)
Sam (oh, well) Sands
>
>
> Barbara
Meaningful Dialogue
Sorry Sam (oh, well) Sands:
I'm here to answer your question, probably much to the chagrin of those
posting in this thread.
To quote from "Fatal Justice", I'll list a few reasons:
"McGinniss had not informed his readers about the scientific problems
with Stombaugh's pajama top folding experiment, problems which Segal's
expert had pointed out in trial, which even Stombaugh had admitted to,
and which McGinniss himself had alluded to in a letter to MacDonald."
"...McGinniss claimed that MacDonald had lied about being offered a
residency at Yale. Yet had the author asked MacDonald about the issue,
MacDonald would have shown him a letter from Yale's Dr. Wayne
Southwick, the chief of orthopedic surgery, mentioning
his "considerable pride in the fact that you were planning to come here
to train with me."
"McGinniss said throughout the book that MacDonald had lied to Collette
about being offered a trip to Russia to serve as physician on the army
boxing team. Yet McGinniss had failed to interview Sherriedale Morgan,
the Fort Bragg boxing coach, to check on the issue, even when the
author and the coach appeared together during a court hearing. Morgan
later verified that MacDonald had not lied."
etc., etc., etc
By the way, you can do a little self study on the case at for a good
overview see:
http://va.crimelibrary.com/macdonald/mac/macmain.htm
For information on the book "Fatal Justice" see:
And, of course, all the links you could possibly hope for at:
http://www.themacdonalddefense.com
Hope this helps,
Samuel Sands
book sometime ago and was interested in another view. And thanks to Barbara
for the other book reference. Sorry I seemed petulant. :^)
Sam (abashed) Sands
Meaningful Dialogue
ssa...@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Thank you. I appreciate that very much. Very kind of you. I read
the
> book sometime ago and was interested in another view. And thanks to
Barbara
> for the other book reference. Sorry I seemed petulant. :^)
>
> Sam (abashed) Sands
That's okay, Sam (abashed) Sands.
As this case has been discussed, argued, and shouted about in the past,
we all kind of walk on eggshells when it's mentioned. Seems that the
views concerning this case are polar opposites and the "sides" get down
to personal attacks on intelligence and so forth when it is mentioned.
So refreshing to hear of someone wanting to get an informed view at
least.
Check back in with your view if you'd like to see a posting frenzy.
(And start a new thread) ;)
Best,
M D
Every9man
petulant for no good reason:)
I think the worst lie of all had to do with painting MacDonald as a druggie and
womanizer, using phoney interviews with phoney neighbors among other more
*attractive* sources.
barbara
From: Samuel Sands <ssa...@bellsouth.net>
Thank you. I appreciate that very much. Very kind of you. I read the
book sometime ago and was interested in another view. And thanks to Barbara
for the other book reference. Sorry I seemed petulant. :^)
Sam (abashed) Sands
Meaningful Dialogue wrote: