Ramsey-Bo Raxo/Kris Baker EAT CROW
John
FragileWarrior
news:iOqdneR4eLMqK37Z...@comcast.com:
> FUCKING KNOW IT ALLS DON'T KNOW IT ALL DO YOU?
Now have a cigarette and a nap and you'll be ready to go again in about a
week or so.
Hunter
John wrote:
> FUCKING KNOW IT ALLS DON'T KNOW IT ALL DO YOU?
I believe that the Ramseys were innocent but it is a bit too early in
the investigation of Karr to say anyone has to eat Crow he could be
innocent despite his priors, but if the DNA that was found in
JonBenet's underwear and her fingernails does match, They should start
reaching for the knife and fork.
---->Hunter
tiny dancer
"Hunter" <buffh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1155774913.2...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> John wrote:
> > FUCKING KNOW IT ALLS DON'T KNOW IT ALL DO YOU?
> ----
> I believe that the Ramseys were innocent but it is a bit too early in
> the investigation of Karr to say anyone has to eat Crow he could be
> innocent despite his priors,
The point here is 'the Ramsey's were never given the presumption of
innocence'.
draco664
The presumption of innocence is only valid in a courtroom, when someone
is on trial. Other than that, speculation, opinions and conspiracy
theories are quite legal to be circulated (libel and slander laws
withstanding).
Draco
MaryL
"draco664" <drac...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1155779052.2...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
They are legal but unfair and often involve such wild leaps of speculation
that almost *anyone* could be tarred by these wide strokes of presumed
guilt.
MaryL
EnEss
> John wrote:
>> FUCKING KNOW IT ALLS DON'T KNOW IT ALL DO YOU?
> I believe that the Ramseys were innocent but it is a bit too early in
> the investigation of Karr to say anyone has to eat Crow
Agreed. I think it's WAY premature to start talking about anyone eating crow
or assuming this case is all wrapped up. An arrest and slowly filtering in,
sketchy reports of a child porn rap and researching pedophile murders
including JBR's is hardly the same thing as conclusively proof of anything.
Many arrests turn out to fall through or be proven later to have been a
mistake. Need I remind everyone of that Richard Ricci fellow in the
Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, or Robert Jewel in the Atlanta bombing?
Everyone calm down and hold your horses until we hear what they've got on
this guy.
>he could be
> innocent despite his priors, but if the DNA that was found in
> JonBenet's underwear and her fingernails does match, They should start
> reaching for the knife and fork.
I agree if they've got a handwriting match and a DNA match to that little
sample found in the girl's underwear, that would cinch it pretty tight. But
we know nothing yet. Maybe we'll hear more tomorrow when the Boulder DA
office will supposedly hold a press conference or issue a statement.
NS
(add sbc before global to email)
tiny dancer
"EnEss" <star...@global.net> wrote in message
news:CdREg.10127$kO3....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> "Hunter" wrote:
>
> > John wrote:
> >> FUCKING KNOW IT ALLS DON'T KNOW IT ALL DO YOU?
>
> > I believe that the Ramseys were innocent but it is a bit too early in
> > the investigation of Karr to say anyone has to eat Crow
I don't think it has that much to do with this particular suspect, as the
idea that for years now, people have been wedded to the idea tha the parents
did it, period. Continuing to rely on rumors, innuendo and gossip rather
than taking a closer look at the actual evidence in the case.
As has been posted, the infamous 'no footprints in the snow', when upon
observation of the crime scene photos one can clearly see there is little to
no snow leading to the house, and none at all around the back of the house.
Someone cruelly tortured and killed this little girl, and if the time is
taken to examine ONLY the actual evidence, it points to an intruder IMO.
td
Hunter
True, but we must give Karr that presumption. If he is innocent he must
feel like he is in the first circle of Hell. Incidentally it looks like
he was NOT arrested in Bangkok for any sex crime but on the request of
American authorities and immigration questions.
---->Hunter
tiny dancer
From what I can gather from all these various reports, it appears he was
arrested on an outstanding failure to appear warrant from the previous
kiddie porn charges here in California.
td
>
Hunter
EnEss wrote:
> "Hunter" wrote:
>
> > John wrote:
> >> FUCKING KNOW IT ALLS DON'T KNOW IT ALL DO YOU?
>
> > I believe that the Ramseys were innocent but it is a bit too early in
> > the investigation of Karr to say anyone has to eat Crow
>
> Agreed. I think it's WAY premature to start talking about anyone eating crow
> or assuming this case is all wrapped up. An arrest and slowly filtering in,
> sketchy reports of a child porn rap and researching pedophile murders
> including JBR's is hardly the same thing as conclusively proof of anything.
> Many arrests turn out to fall through or be proven later to have been a
> mistake. Need I remind everyone of that Richard Ricci fellow in the
> Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, or Robert Jewel in the Atlanta bombing?
>
> Everyone calm down and hold your horses until we hear what they've got on
> this guy.
Agreed. The anniversary of Richard Jewell's public pillory has just
past. It was that case in mind 10 years ago that made me feel for the
Ramseys where being judged too quickly, not to mention that the case
details were falling apart beginning with the footprints in the snow
canard.
>
> >he could be
> > innocent despite his priors, but if the DNA that was found in
> > JonBenet's underwear and her fingernails does match, They should start
> > reaching for the knife and fork.
>
> I agree if they've got a handwriting match and a DNA match to that little
> sample found in the girl's underwear, that would cinch it pretty tight. But
> we know nothing yet. Maybe we'll hear more tomorrow when the Boulder DA
> office will supposedly hold a press conference or issue a statement.
>
> NS
> (add sbc before global to email)
I am waiting for the handwriting match as well. And btw the DNA was
found under her nails of both hands as well as in her underwear. I am
also waiting for Karr's brother to find the Christmas '96 family
photos.
---->Hunter
Hunter
And that looks bad for him. If I was innocent and I was accused of that
I would demand that my accusers "put up or shut up" in court. We all
have had people whisper behind our backs but won't do what is necessary
to justify there beliefs. I can only think of why he would run if he
was innocent is that he was scared seeing his life falling apart and
couldn't take it and/or perhaps he felt he wouldn't get a fair shake.
At any rate, from what little I know of these previous charges the
child porn was on a computer that he was in possession of or had access
to.
Last thing: the latest I have heard is that Karr was NOT arrested in
Bangkok on any sex crime but on immigration charges and the request of
the American prosecutors. So that is one early report that seems to be
false.
---->Hunter
tiny dancer
I was listening to somebody explain the Thailand *situation* earlier on one
of the news programs. The way I understood what the guy was saying was that
the U.S. has some sort of *agreement* with Thailand concerning sex crimes
involving children, etc. That the U.S. can ask the Thai's to pick up and
hold someone and then get them extradited easily to face charges here in the
states. I'm guessing this is in reference to all those reported 'sex tours'
booked here where men go over to specifically engage in sex with children.
He was also saying that some sort of Immigration authorities (U.S.) are
involved in this particular extradition. Not simply the Boulder D.A.
As with everything else concerning these breaking developments, take it with
a grain of salt until we hear more. But that was the way I understood what
he was saying.
td
>
Chocolic
There was another case of the dingo that took the baby. I can't think
of the name right now and too lazy to look it up. But it's cases like
those that make me hold back accusing somebody of something without
all the facts. That's why I held back so long on Scott Peterson's
guilt. I felt on that case a lot of people wanted to convict him
because OJ got away with. But we won't go there...... :)
Chocolic
EnEss
"Chocolic" wrote:
> There was another case of the dingo that took the baby. I can't think of
> the name right now and too lazy to look it up.
Lindy Chamberlain.
> But it's cases like those that make me hold back accusing somebody of
> something without all the facts.
Me too. It's really important to never lose sight of such things. Terrible
injustices have been perpetrated on wrongly accused people over the decades,
even centuries. Innocent people have been put to death or imprisoned for
decades for crimes someone else committed. The "state" doesn't always get it
right. People need to remember that.
> That's why I held back so long on Scott Peterson's guilt. I felt on that
> case a lot of people wanted to convict him because OJ got away with. But
> we won't go there...... :)
I reserved my conviction of Scott Peterson too until the bodies turned up
where they did. That clinched it for me. There was just no way to explain it
that made any sense, plus, added to all the other stuff.
If this is true...if this John Karr really is the killer of JonBenet
Ramsey....the magnitude of the horror and injustice done to her family, and
the depth of the hell they've been through these past nearly 10 years is
nearly immeasurable...unthinkable. It defies imagination to contemplate what
they've suffered. I'm feeling ill just thinking of it.
EnEss
> I don't think it has that much to do with this particular suspect, as the
> idea that for years now, people have been wedded to the idea tha the
> parents
> did it, period. Continuing to rely on rumors, innuendo and gossip rather
> than taking a closer look at the actual evidence in the case.
I don't think you're being fair or reasonable, tiny. (and I've been a
defender of the Ramseys for the most part) There certainly was a rush to
judgment immediately after the murder on the part of LE, the media (in
particular the tabloid media) and public opinion. But almost 10 years has
gone by, so that rush to judgment accusation no longer holds. The fact is,
there was a lot of circumstantial evidence that led people to suspect, and
even to feel pretty certain, the parents were behind their child's death.
Part of that was how little sense the intruder theory made in light of so
many strange details of the case, many of which are unprecedented in
murder/abductions/pedophile crimes committed by an intruder entering the
home. But the problem as I see it always was that the idea of the parents
committing this heinous act, and any reason for it, made even less sense
IMO. Obviously, a lot of people disagreed. But I never thought they were
completely nutso and way off-base to do so.
> As has been posted, the infamous 'no footprints in the snow', when upon
> observation of the crime scene photos one can clearly see there is little
> to
> no snow leading to the house, and none at all around the back of the
> house.
Yes, agreed. There's been a high volume of misinformation and disinformation
disseminated in this case, even up to recently. It's terrible and it's
really criminal. It makes me very angry. No one should be judged for
something so horrible and serious on the basis of manipulated and sometimes
out-and-out invented circumstances.
> Someone cruelly tortured and killed this little girl, and if the time is
> taken to examine ONLY the actual evidence, it points to an intruder IMO.
And here I don't agree w/ you completely, tiny. A lot of the evidence seemed
to suggest it was far more likely that a family member--someone living in
the home--had to have committed the crime. But there was always enough doubt
left IMO to make it impossible to be certain or to seek a conviction. I
always felt the intruder theory should've been and should be pursued more
aggressively. The crime was certainly radically atypical for one committed
by an intruder. But in the course of millions of crimes throughout history,
a completely bizarre, seemingly impossible and unbelievable scenario could
come along that one totally freakish time.
Chocolic
apologies, I mean huge. Including the Chief of police and the Mayor
or governor (I can't remember which, and I'm tired and too late to
look it up) that denounced them in the press. It was awful.
Chocolic
Cliff and Linda Griffith
> Maybe we'll hear more tomorrow when the Boulder DA
> office will supposedly hold a press conference or issue a statement.
>
> NS
> (add sbc before global to email)
Did I miss something? Dan Abrams said today that the Boulder PD would have
a press conference at 4:00 PM. I took that to mean 5:00 PM Central....yet
nothing. Maybe it's because I'm not good at math. Perhaps it was 3:00 PM?
Then still again, I read that the Powers That Be would meet the press on
Thursday.
Maybe by then, I can figure out when the conference will be in Central Time?
Did y'all hear the female talking-head on MSNBC, calling Clint Van Zandt
"Cliff"?
Linda
Linda
Hunter
I am well aware of the "A Dingo got my baby" case in Australia in 1980.
The JonBenet case could well be our version of that tragedy. For those
who don't know remember it it was a case in which the parents were
suspected of killing their nine week old baby Azaria, the mother, Lindy
Chamberlain in particular with the father covering for her, just like
in the Ramsey case. People could not believe that a dingo-which is a
type of a wild dog by the way-would enter a house full of humans and
snatch a baby, just like some people can't believe someone could enter
the Ramsey house and murder a child, so most everyone didn't believe
her. However, unlike the Ramsey case, the accused, that is the mother
mainly, were actually convicted in 1981 and sent to prison. The father
was convicted as an accessory and given an 18 month suspended sentence.
It was only while looking for the remains in another tragedy, that is
of a British tourist falling to his death onto a pile of rocks below
the bluff he was climbing in 1986 and the remains ironically carried
off by Dingos that they found an article of clothing that belonged to
baby Azaria in a Dingo's Lair. The Crown to its credit immediately
released her pending further investigation. That investigation cleared
the Chamberlains.
In the main as great as the suffering the Ramseys went through the
Chamberlains went through worse since Lindy went to prison. Today most
people in Australia believe the Chamberlains were telling the truth.
Read about it in greater detail here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azaria_Chamberlain_disappearance
---->Hunter
tiny dancer
> "tiny dancer" wrote:
> > I don't think it has that much to do with this particular suspect, as
the
> > idea that for years now, people have been wedded to the idea tha the
> > parents
> > did it, period. Continuing to rely on rumors, innuendo and gossip
rather
> > than taking a closer look at the actual evidence in the case.
>
> I don't think you're being fair or reasonable, tiny. (and I've been a
> defender of the Ramseys for the most part) There certainly was a rush to
> judgment immediately after the murder on the part of LE, the media (in
> particular the tabloid media) and public opinion. But almost 10 years has
> gone by, so that rush to judgment accusation no longer holds. The fact is,
> there was a lot of circumstantial evidence that led people to suspect, and
> even to feel pretty certain, the parents were behind their child's death.
What evidence?
> Part of that was how little sense the intruder theory made in light of so
> many strange details of the case, many of which are unprecedented in
> murder/abductions/pedophile crimes committed by an intruder entering the
> home.
None of that is evidence. The actual *evidence* pointed away from the
Ramsey's and towards an intruder. No duct tape was found in the home. The
piece of duct tape on JonBenets mouth was the only duct tape found. No more
of the rope used to bind her was ever found in the home either.
The whole accidental blow to the head theory was opposite to what the manner
of death was stated as. JonBenet was strangled, with the blow to the head
coming 'at or near the time of death'. Not before, in an accidental manner.
But the problem as I see it always was that the idea of the parents
> committing this heinous act, and any reason for it, made even less sense
> IMO. Obviously, a lot of people disagreed. But I never thought they were
> completely nutso and way off-base to do so.
>
> > As has been posted, the infamous 'no footprints in the snow', when upon
> > observation of the crime scene photos one can clearly see there is
little
> > to
> > no snow leading to the house, and none at all around the back of the
> > house.
>
> Yes, agreed. There's been a high volume of misinformation and
disinformation
> disseminated in this case, even up to recently. It's terrible and it's
> really criminal. It makes me very angry. No one should be judged for
> something so horrible and serious on the basis of manipulated and
sometimes
> out-and-out invented circumstances.
>
> > Someone cruelly tortured and killed this little girl, and if the time is
> > taken to examine ONLY the actual evidence, it points to an intruder IMO.
>
> And here I don't agree w/ you completely, tiny. A lot of the evidence
seemed
> to suggest it was far more likely that a family member--someone living in
> the home--had to have committed the crime.
What evidence? When I've asked this question in the past, the only answer
I've ever gotten is 'patsy couldn't be ruled out as the author of the ransom
note.' IIRC, even that, there was only one examiner who stated he couldn't
rule her out. Many others stated she didn't write the note.
td
EnEss
"Hunter" wrote:
> I am well aware of the "A Dingo got my baby" case in Australia in 1980.
> The JonBenet case could well be our version of that tragedy. For those
> who don't know remember it it was a case in which the parents were
> suspected of killing their nine week old baby Azaria, the mother, Lindy
> Chamberlain in particular with the father covering for her, just like
> in the Ramsey case. People could not believe that a dingo-which is a
> type of a wild dog by the way-would enter a house full of humans and
> snatch a baby, just like some people can't believe someone could enter
> the Ramsey house and murder a child, so most everyone didn't believe
> her.
Just a small FYI here....it wasn't the family home the dingo came into. The
family was camping at a campsite and the dingo crept into the family's tent
while the baby was sleeping inside it and the family was gathered just
outside the tent, talking and socializing w/ other campers. No one but the
mother saw the dingo in the tent and she shooed him out. Only after it ran
off did she discover the baby missing.
> However, unlike the Ramsey case, the accused, that is the mother
> mainly, were actually convicted in 1981 and sent to prison. The father
> was convicted as an accessory and given an 18 month suspended sentence.
> It was only while looking for the remains in another tragedy, that is
> of a British tourist falling to his death onto a pile of rocks below
> the bluff he was climbing in 1986 and the remains ironically carried
> off by Dingos that they found an article of clothing that belonged to
> baby Azaria in a Dingo's Lair. The Crown to its credit immediately
> released her pending further investigation. That investigation cleared
> the Chamberlains.
>
> In the main as great as the suffering the Ramseys went through the
> Chamberlains went through worse since Lindy went to prison. Today most
> people in Australia believe the Chamberlains were telling the truth.
I know, it's a terrible story...such a tragedy on all levels. That family
suffered terribly, especially the mother. One of the reasons they were so
hated and distrusted probably had to do w/ societal prejudice against their
minority religious sect...7th Day Adventists.
EnEss
> "EnEss" wrote:
>> Maybe we'll hear more tomorrow when the Boulder DA
>> office will supposedly hold a press conference or issue a statement.
> Did I miss something? Dan Abrams said today that the Boulder PD would
> have
> a press conference at 4:00 PM. I took that to mean 5:00 PM Central....yet
> nothing. Maybe it's because I'm not good at math. Perhaps it was 3:00 PM?
> Then still again, I read that the Powers That Be would meet the press on
> Thursday.
2 things:
1) Just a little FYI...if a cable news channel says anything about a news
conference at 4 pm, they are talking about Eastern Time, and that would mean
an hour earlier--3 pm--in any Central Time zone (like Illinois or Texas),
not an hour later (5 pm). Don't feel bad. I can think of scads of people who
make this mistake all the time, including my husband who is an otherwise
pretty sharp guy. ; )
2) The first report said there would be a statement from the Boulder DA or
even a news conference at 5 pm EDT (4 pm CDT, and 3 pm Boulder Time--RMT),
but that was later scratched and the revised report said the
conference/statement would be tomorrow/Thur., possibly in the morning.
> Maybe by then, I can figure out when the conference will be in Central
> Time?
LOL...we'll see.
> Did y'all hear the female talking-head on MSNBC, calling Clint Van Zandt
> "Cliff"?
No, I missed that, but so? It would be an easy mistake I would think.
Hunter
Thanks, I mixed up that house detail with the Ramsey, Crowe and Klass
cases.
--->Hunter
Lars Eighner
<NUTEg.257938$mF2....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, the lovely and
talented Chocolic broadcast on alt.true-crime:
> Exactly and there are a lot of people that need to make some huge
> apologies, I mean huge. Including the Chief of police and the Mayor
> or governor (I can't remember which, and I'm tired and too late to
> look it up) that denounced them in the press. It was awful.
You know, I never found the "Patsy did it" theories very convincing at all.
They all seemed very strained and grasping at straws. Really, she's had
older kids and she's going to throttle Jon Benet for wetting the bed --
please! But the pageantry footage -- it was the first time I'd ever seen
little girls in off-the-shoulder gowns and Kathleen-Harris lipstick, and I
thought it was sickest thing I had seen in my life (and still would except
for even worse pageantry excesses exposed on Dr. Phil). So, I didn't mind
terribly seeing Patsy in the hot seat, because she did the pageant thing with
her eyes wide open. I'll be surprised if the pageant thing didn't have
something to do with attracting the killer to Jon Benet, if it really was
someone from outside the household.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner>
"I believe in God and I believe in free markets,"-Kenneth Lay, CEO Enron
Kathy
Not to be nit-picky, but it was a tent. The baby was sleeping by
herself in a tent. I never believed the parents had anything to do with
it, but I did think at the time that I would not leave a newborn in a
tent by herself at night, as Lindy did.
Kathy
tiny dancer
"Lars Eighner" <use...@larseighner.com> wrote in message
news:slrnee8bqq...@goodwill.io.com...
> In our last episode,
> <NUTEg.257938$mF2....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, the lovely and
> talented Chocolic broadcast on alt.true-crime:
>
> > Exactly and there are a lot of people that need to make some huge
> > apologies, I mean huge. Including the Chief of police and the Mayor
> > or governor (I can't remember which, and I'm tired and too late to
> > look it up) that denounced them in the press. It was awful.
>
> You know, I never found the "Patsy did it" theories very convincing at
all.
> They all seemed very strained and grasping at straws. Really, she's had
> older kids and she's going to throttle Jon Benet for wetting the bed --
> please! But the pageantry footage -- it was the first time I'd ever seen
> little girls in off-the-shoulder gowns and Kathleen-Harris lipstick, and I
> thought it was sickest thing I had seen in my life (and still would except
> for even worse pageantry excesses exposed on Dr. Phil). So, I didn't mind
> terribly seeing Patsy in the hot seat, because she did the pageant thing
with
> her eyes wide open. I'll be surprised if the pageant thing didn't have
> something to do with attracting the killer to Jon Benet, if it really was
> someone from outside the household.
I find the pagent stuff objectionable too. My daughters were into ballet,
gymnastics, tee ball, brownies, etc. But here in the south, the pagent
scene is much more prevalent than most other places in the country, I think.
What I'm saying is, Patsy was no different than thousands of other mothers
who do these sorts of things. One of my neighbors was into this sort of
crap. While my daughters were outside, getting dirty, coming in with scabby
knees and elbows, her child was at 'afternoon teas' and charm school.
td
Grizzlie Antagonist
> FUCKING KNOW IT ALLS DON'T KNOW IT ALL DO YOU?
Who's eating crow now, asshole?