Sport Trac Towing/Landing boat from Ramp
eric...@yahoo.com
motor. I don't think the truck has a limited slip differential, and I
have only 2WD. The truck is rated to tow 5,600+/- lbs. My boat, a 21'
cuddy weighs about 2,000, plus 450 motor, plus the trailer, plus fuel.
I guess I'm towing around 4,000 lbs, or a bit more.
Is my truck up to the task? I'm paying $300 for slip rent and would
like to start towing the boat, but I don't know if I need to start
looking looking for a new truck, as well as a new trailer. I'm in
Bradenton FL and most ramps are grooved concrete and seem to be in good
shape, but I've never towed a boat, so I don't know what good shape
is...
please help!
Ford Tech
<eric...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1168123964.5...@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Eric,
Yes your Sport Trac can tow the boat with the approved reciever hitch. For a
boat that big you need a class 3 or larger hitch. Take a look here to learn
a thing or two- http://www.drawtite-hitches.com/the_classes.htm . As for the
boat ramps, most are covered in algae, and are extremely slippery. You dont
want to be on one that has a very steep incline, or you wont get off. I mean
that with or without limited slip rearend. Make sure you have a decent
amount of meat on your tires as well.
Now as to your limited slip or open differential question. I am going to
say that more than likely you will have an open differential (no limited
slip) however, you can have a truck shop install a reputable locker in your
rear diff. for probably about $600. Just curious have you ever taken off on
wet pavement and one tire spun and the other didnt? If one spun and the
other didnt, then its open. If they both got traction, then its got limited
slip. The easier thing to do is look at your axle code on your door plate. I
think the abbreviation is AXL on the door plate. You are looking for a two
digit alphanumeric number. If it says R7 you have a limited slip
differential, but if it says 97 then its a regular 8.8" open differential. I
live in Kansas right now, but probably moving to the Reno area next summer,
and I have been looking at lockers for my rearend due to not having traction
in the snow and rain. I have the 8.8" open diff as well. Hope this helps..
Ford Tech
Whitelightning
they should be as steep as the skyway bridge's main span. With out a limited
slip he's going to have serious issues getting the rig out of the water.
The ramps are often slimy as an ambulance chasing lawyer, and they have a
bad habit of ending a bit shorter than they should. But then some of that
is caused by the anal retentive types who are too damn lazy to crank their
boats up on their trailers, so they "power" up with the engine, all the
while the prop wash is washing the dirt out form under the end of the ramp
till eventually the end collapses. Before you give serious consideration to
this I suggest you spend some time at the ramps you plan to use and watch
the show, its often times more fun a barrel of monkeys to watch some of the
clowns trying to launch and recover their vessels.
Whitelightning
SnoMan
<white.li...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Florida boat ramps are the absolute pits. The idiots that build them think
>they should be as steep as the skyway bridge's main span. With out a limited
>slip he's going to have serious issues getting the rig out of the water.
You should see some Ohio, Kentucky and Tennesse boat ramps. Not only
are they steep but some are long and steep too. I have haul many boat
out ramps over the years and some were unbeleiveable steep and lack of
posi was never a deal killer for me but so seem to think it is a must
have. The most important part is power and gearing because starting a
5 or 6 K load on a level verse on a steep ramp is a completely
different matter.Personally I think you 4.0 is a bit light for 4 K if
ramp is steep even with 4.10 because 4.10's is not deep with stock 31
or 32 inch tires and a 4.0 in that SUV. Pickups tend to be light in
rear and sometimes a few hundred pounds of ballest next to tall gate
can help if traction os limted n a slick ramp. I used to carry a few
sand bads with me and if ramp was greasy I would spread a bit of sand
on the slime and drive right out or you can use the burn your way out
that some seem to like.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Ford Tech
"SnoMan" <ad...@snoman.com> wrote in message
news:6373q2liibbvo00ue...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 00:58:19 GMT, "Whitelightning"
> <white.li...@verizon.net> wrote:
The most important part is power and gearing because starting a
> 5 or 6 K load on a level verse on a steep ramp is a completely
> different matter.Personally I think you 4.0 is a bit light for 4 K if
> ramp is steep even with 4.10 because 4.10's is not deep with stock 31
> or 32 inch tires and a 4.0 in that SUV.
> TheSnoMan.com
SnoMan,
I am getting tired of your ranting and raving about gear ratio being the
most important factor when considering pulling a load. It is important,
that's why I mentioned him checking his gear ratio to make sure it is low
geared. But when you talk about pulling a load or even just driving in slick
conditions then limited slip or a locker rearend is just as important as
gear ratio. If the truck says that it is capable of pulling a load that big,
then it SHOULD already be equipped with a low enough gear ratio to do the
job, and all the rest of the drive train has been spec'ed out to do what the
rearend can handle. The reason I talked bout the L/S or locker rear diff, is
cause if he hits a really slick spot and looses traction with a boat on the
back, and no locker to help pick up the power on the other wheel, he could
very well end up losing his whole rig in the water. I have seen it happen,
it aint purty.. The other thing is that if you dont have a locker, and you
sit there spinning and spinning that one tire, it is very easy to burn up a
differential that way. Atleast with a locker you would have both wheels
spinning, or NONE at all.. SO, lets see if we can widen your tunnel vision
for gear ratios, and see if we can make you a better all around tech..
Ford Tech
Roy
"Ford Tech" <pku...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1aioh.8107$kM1....@newsfe11.phx...
Hey!! Lighten up! The idiot is having a banner week end. Thus far he has
screwed up at the chevy truck group, the dodge truck group and now here.
The dodge group has a list of his top 10 wrong info's going around.
> Ford Tech
>
SnoMan
wrote:
>SnoMan,
>I am getting tired of your ranting and raving about gear ratio being the
>most important factor when considering pulling a load. It is important,
>that's why I mentioned him checking his gear ratio to make sure it is low
>geared. But when you talk about pulling a load or even just driving in slick
>conditions then limited slip or a locker rearend is just as important as
>gear ratio. If the truck says that it is capable of pulling a load that big,
>then it SHOULD already be equipped with a low enough gear ratio to do the
>job, and all the rest of the drive train has been spec'ed out to do what the
>rearend can handle. The reason I talked bout the L/S or locker rear diff, is
>cause if he hits a really slick spot and looses traction with a boat on the
>back, and no locker to help pick up the power on the other wheel, he could
>very well end up losing his whole rig in the water. I have seen it happen,
>it aint purty.. The other thing is that if you dont have a locker, and you
>sit there spinning and spinning that one tire, it is very easy to burn up a
>differential that way. Atleast with a locker you would have both wheels
>spinning, or NONE at all.. SO, lets see if we can widen your tunnel vision
>for gear ratios, and see if we can make you a better all around tech..
Yes widen your vision. YOu place far to much faith on factory tow
rating and Ford is particulalry bad about it with some models greatly
over rating them. There is no federal guide lines or standards for tow
rating (unlike crash, emission and MPG) so Detriot is free to pad it
anyway they want to help boost sales. It is not just Ford either. I
have a 2000 K3500 and it has the same tow rating as a new LD 1/2
truck does in some configurations which is pure BS to even suggest
that its lighter chassis, suspension, axles, tires and brakes is just
as safe and capable as my "old" 3500 is. You are free to beleive the
moto "In Detroit We Trust" when it come to towing but I do not as I
have been at this game for over 35 years now. Also there is a lot of
misconception about standard and LSD's A standard diff can onlt send
same ampout of axle torque to each wheel, no more or less. THere is no
one wheel drive. Also when you talk axle ratios, when pulling hard
driveshaft torque twists axle in shassi and lightens the tire load on
RR tire when going forward (Newton law, for avery action there is a
equal and opposite retaction) which is the reason it always breaks
loose first. Deeper gears have less wrap up for same tractive effort
level than taller one. But there are those that think that there is
this magis force that hold things in place so that chassis torque and
axle ratios have no effect on traction of pulling power. When you use
a pry bar to moved something, do you use the longer one that gives you
best advantage over the load or the shorter pne that rquire more
effort on your part? (likely the shorter one) Same deal with axle
ratios.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
SnoMan
>Hey!! Lighten up! The idiot is having a banner week end.
Yes you are Roy, your certainly are. Anything to get your fix when you
do not understand the dynamics involved.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Roy
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:58:49 -0500, "Roy" <R...@home.net> wrote:
>
>>Hey!! Lighten up! The idiot is having a banner week end.
>
>
> Yes you are Roy, your certainly are. Anything to get your fix when you
> do not understand the dynamics involved.
The dynamic I don't understand is how you can post so much and say so little
that is correct.
Care to respond to the knock sensor on the V10?
> -----------------
> TheWrongAnswerMan.com
Ford Tech
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2007 20:49:16 -0600, "Ford Tech" <pku...@cox.net>
> wrote:
It is not just Ford either. I
> have a 2000 K3500 and it has the same tow rating as a new LD 1/2
> truck does in some configurations which is pure BS to even suggest
> that its lighter chassis, suspension, axles, tires and brakes is just
> as safe and capable as my "old" 3500 is.
> TheSnoMan.com
Ok, so here is the real facts. The reason some of the new 1/2 ton p/u have
the same towing capacity as some of the older and larger 3/4-1 ton p/u, is
due to increased rigidity in frame design as well as increased output from
the power plants. If you were to look at the engineering specs between the
1/2 ton and 1 ton you will see the new 1/2 tons have tube frames now and not
the old c-channel frames. This almost doubles their strength, and they have
improved on the actual strength of the steel too.
Here you speak of a Chevy? Well dont start comparing Chevy and Ford
because they are two different companies and use two different standards for
building their trucks. The last Chevy that I owned was over 20yr old.
Although after seeing the new Chevy Silverado, if I hear anything good about
the Duramax, I might buy one, but more than likely it will be a FORD. So you
are comparing apples to oranges. Yes the Sport Trac does have a decent tow
rating, and YES it will pull a boat that size. I have seen many people doing
it, this fella here wouldnt be the first. As for how easily its doing it,
well it must not be too bad, casue alot of folks here in KS are doing it
just fine. I bet its a bit doggy, but I can tow 3500lbs just fine with my
2000 Ranger 3.0L w/5spd. I also have 245/75/16 tires and a 4.10 diff from
the factory. No problems here. I also pulled a Dodge 1/2 ton extended cab
p/u down the highway on a tow dolley before, and it did it just fine. So if
I can pull 3500lbs comfortably with my Ranger, I see no problems with
someone pulling a boat that weighs about that much with a larger powerplant.
I only told him to check into the L/S rear diff because he was planning on
pulling this thing out of the water on a boat ramp, and I am sure he could
use the extra traction the L/S would afford him.
Ford Tech (I stick with what I know for FACTS, not speculation)
SnoMan
>The dynamic I don't understand is how you can post so much and say so little
>that is correct.
I guess it is because of your inabilty to understand much more than a
on button or how to turn a key.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
SnoMan
wrote:
>Ok, so here is the real facts. The reason some of the new 1/2 ton p/u have
>the same towing capacity as some of the older and larger 3/4-1 ton p/u, is
>due to increased rigidity in frame design as well as increased output from
>the power plants. If you were to look at the engineering specs between the
>1/2 ton and 1 ton you will see the new 1/2 tons have tube frames now and not
>the old c-channel frames. This almost doubles their strength, and they have
>improved on the actual strength of the steel too.
Pure BS. It is all about sales hype but people such as you want to
believe ANYTHING detriot sells you. The frame are not as thick or
strong as they were 30 years ago when 1/2 and 3/4 tons shared the same
frames. New truck also have LESS spring in them than 10 years ago to
make them ride softer to sell them for car replacements. My 3500 has 5
mail leafs and a booster in rear vs 2 leafs and a booster on your 1/2
ton that you claim is so great. (do not try to give me this impovered
spring material BS either because it is the same as are the leaf
sizes) It also has 10 ply tires and massive brakes verse lighter tires
and and brakes on a 1/2 ton. I have dead weight towed 13K with no
stabilty issues at all and better that you 1/2 ton would with 7000 lbs
on a dead weight. It takes chassis and tires and suspension to handle
serious weight in any senerio not the stroke of a pen. Take your pick
you modern 1/2 ton is either greatly over rated or my 3500 is greatly
under rated. ALso on you HP claims, this is another line of BS because
though it looks impressive on paper the GM 5.3 lacks power below 3000
RPM where most towing is done. The ford 5.4 also lacks lower RPM
torque because they both lack displacement. You do not tow at 5000RPM
(maybe you do) but at a lower RPM. A simple rule of thumb here, if
your SUV struggles to hold OD empty on a grade it will suck towing a
heavy load and I do not consider it to be SOP to have to down shift to
second on interstate hills but many do now because this is want
detriot has taught you to accept. A old 69 Chevy, Oldsmobile or
Pontiac family station wagon would out tow you modern 1/2 ton SUV with
easy. If detriot would stop trying to built car truck and put the
spring back in them and gear them deeper so that they have a real 4
speed tranny (not a 3 speed with OD that wpulls sometime) they could
build a decent TV but this is not likely anytime soon. Put a 4.56 or
deeper rear axle with better spring behind a OD tranny if a half ton
and it would likely live up to its rating but if you follow it blindly
you will be very disapointed. See part of the reason it is like this
too is because if the light gas truck were geared and built correctly
to tow properly, the marketablity of high dollar diesels would falter.
It is all a game that you have clearly fallen for.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Roy
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 08:56:30 -0500, "Roy" <R...@home.net> wrote:
>
>>The dynamic I don't understand is how you can post so much and say so
>>little
>>that is correct.
> I guess it is because of your inabilty to understand much more than a
> on button or how to turn a key.
How about you answer the question about the knock sensor on the V10.
What I do understand is that you are a fountain of mis-information and
nothing more..
> TheWrongAnswerMan.com
SnoMan
>How about you answer the question about the knock sensor on the V10.
>What I do understand is that you are a fountain of mis-information and
>nothing more..
Roy when it comes to lack of reason and understanding you are king.
You also beleive that 87 octane is the best possible fuel for a modern
engine.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Roy
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:37:23 -0500, "Roy" <R...@home.net> wrote:
>
>>How about you answer the question about the knock sensor on the V10.
>>What I do understand is that you are a fountain of mis-information and
>>nothing more..
>
>
> Roy when it comes to lack of reason and understanding you are king.
As you are King when it come to wrong answer's.
> You also beleive that 87 octane is the best possible fuel for a modern
> engine.
That is kinda stupid as I use diesel in one and 93 octane in another.
Now seeing as your paying attention, explain you answer regarding the V10
sensor or are you going to contiue to duck and avoid
> -----------------
> TheWrongAnswerMan.com
eric...@yahoo.com
Explorer with 4x4, would I then have no problem??? I want to make
sure I end up with a vehicle that will give me no problems at the ramp.
The Explorer has the same tow rating as the Sport Trac. So, a total
of 4,000-4,500 lbs of boat, trailer, fuel, motor, etc with a 5,700 lb
capacity with 4x4 is okay??
Eric
Roy
<eric...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1168350636.4...@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com...
If you lived north where 4X4 would be used more than moving the boat I'd say
yes. But like you say the ramps in most of FL are in good shape I don't see
the need. A limited slip or whatever you choose to call it is a must imho,
that and a tow hook on the front in case things go south in a hurry. I guess
I follow the "it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and
not have it" mantra.
My Name Is Nobody
<eric...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1168350636.4...@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com...
And Eric don't listen to that ignorant SNOW BLOWER, an open differential
sends all of it's power to the axel with the least resistance (read: the
wheel that is spinning, not gripping) regardless of the gear ratio. Limited
slip is a no-brainer, Get it with or without 4X4 regardless of your gear
ratio. A limited slip rear differential will often perform off road, better
than a peg-leg (open differential front and rear) 4X4.
Straddle an open ditch at an angle with an open differential 2X4 and see why
it is inferior to a limited slip, regardless of gear ratio, it will sit with
one tire on the ground doing nothing, with no power to it, while the tire
hanging (resistance free) in the air over the ditch gets all the power, You
go nowhere. A peg-leg 4X4 will do the same thing with one tire front and
rear hanging over the ditch. A 2X4 with a limited slip rear differential
will not be stuck in this situation.
Ford Tech
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 09:23:24 -0600, "Ford Tech" <pku...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Ok, so here is the real facts. The reason some of the new 1/2 ton p/u have
>>the same towing capacity as some of the older and larger 3/4-1 ton p/u, is
>>due to increased rigidity in frame design as well as increased output from
>>the power plants. If you were to look at the engineering specs between the
>>1/2 ton and 1 ton you will see the new 1/2 tons have tube frames now and
>>not
>>the old c-channel frames. This almost doubles their strength, and they
>>have
>>improved on the actual strength of the steel too.
>
> Pure BS. It is all about sales hype but people such as you want to
> believe ANYTHING detriot sells you. The frame are not as thick or
> strong as they were 30 years ago when 1/2 and 3/4 tons shared the same
> frames.
This is NOT BS.. If you take a pipe or dual C channel welded together in the
middle, and try to bend it, how easy is it? Take that same wall thickness in
C channel steel and bend it, it takes about 1/2-3/4 the resistance as the
pipe and almost twice the resistance to bend the dual C channel!! I dont buy
Detroits hype, I worked in Detroit, and have met with the designers for
FORD!!!
> New truck also have LESS spring in them than 10 years ago to
> make them ride softer to sell them for car replacements.
The reason for this is that people have requested that trucks ride smoother,
and have more creature comforts like cars do.. So that is customer driven.
> My 3500 has 5 mail leafs and a booster in rear vs 2 leafs and a booster on
> your 1/2
> ton that you claim is so great.
Ok yes your 3500 ONE ton p/u is going to have more springs that a 1/2 ton..
You are comparing APPLES AND ORANGES!! Compare a 3500 from 20yrs ago to a
3500 from today!! And talk FORD, this is after a FORD forum, nobody cares
about your freakin POS Chevy.. This is a FORD forum.
> (do not try to give me this impovered
> spring material BS either because it is the same as are the leaf
> sizes)
Ok So you are telling me that over the past 30yrs there have not been
improvements in the manufacturing of steel, and it isnt stronger now that it
was 30yrs ago? You need to wake up man, the process for making steel has
changed and gotten better over the years. Steel these days is much stronger
than it was back then.
> It also has 10 ply tires and massive brakes verse lighter tires
> and and brakes on a 1/2 ton.
Ok again apples and oranges, however I have MYSELF have 10ply tires on my
RANGER!! LT245/75R16 Firestone Wilderness AT's Tell me that you cant put
beefy tires on a half ton pickup???
> I have dead weight towed 13K with no stabilty issues at all and better
> that you 1/2 ton would with 7000 lbs
> on a dead weight. It takes chassis and tires and suspension to handle
> serious weight in any senerio not the stroke of a pen. Take your pick
> you modern 1/2 ton is either greatly over rated or my 3500 is greatly
> under rated.
I guess your 3500 was under rated. I can tow almost 4000lbs with my ranger,
and with the tires aired to max, have NO stability issues what-so-ever! It
has to do with how you load the trailer (to a point) not the tow vehicle..
Obviously you dont want to exceed max tow capacity, but it wouldnt be rated
for that capacity if it wasnt capable of doing it. I have also had, near if
not all of, 2000lbs of rock in the bed of my RANGER, and I wasnt even
hitting the spring stops yet. Yeah she was saggin a bit, but she wasnt
loaded to the max.
> ALso on you HP claims, this is another line of BS because
> though it looks impressive on paper the GM 5.3 lacks power below 3000
> RPM where most towing is done. The ford 5.4 also lacks lower RPM
> torque because they both lack displacement. You do not tow at 5000RPM
> (maybe you do) but at a lower RPM. A simple rule of thumb here, if
> your SUV struggles to hold OD empty on a grade it will suck towing a
> heavy load and I do not consider it to be SOP to have to down shift to
> second on interstate hills but many do now because this is want
> detriot has taught you to accept.
Ok its called gearing for gas mileage?? You may not care that back in the
60's and 70's cars were getting 8-12MPG on the highway, but today we like
our 18-20MPG from our cars and trucks. Atleast that is what I get from my
ranger on the highway. And the new F-150's are getting 15-18mpg on the
highway, unloaded. There was also something called CAFE introduced into law,
requiring all auto manufacturers to meet a certain average mpg requirement
across the manufacturers whole line of vehicles.. So keep that in mind.
> A old 69 Chevy, Oldsmobile or Pontiac family station wagon would out tow
> you modern 1/2 ton SUV with
> easy. If detriot would stop trying to built car truck and put the
> spring back in them and gear them deeper so that they have a real 4
> speed tranny (not a 3 speed with OD that wpulls sometime) they could
> build a decent TV but this is not likely anytime soon. Put a 4.56 or
> deeper rear axle with better spring behind a OD tranny if a half ton
> and it would likely live up to its rating but if you follow it blindly
> you will be very disapointed. See part of the reason it is like this
> too is because if the light gas truck were geared and built correctly
> to tow properly, the marketablity of high dollar diesels would falter.
> It is all a game that you have clearly fallen for.
Ok before you go jumping on diesel engines, you better know who you are
talking to. I am a diesel tech, and I have more knowledge about diesels in
my little finger than you have in your brain. Diesels are more effiecent
engines than gas. Diesel produces 138,000btu/lb and gas only produces
118,000btu/lb. Diesels are 60-75% efficient under load and at most a gas
engine is 30-40% efficient under load. Now, if you are dumb enough to pull a
load down the highway in OD, kiss the tranny good bye. You should never pull
a load in OD, always use the OD OFF button or downshift to 4th when pulling,
it says that in everyones owners manual, one of which you might not have
read before.
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
So mister SNO BLOWER, got anything else to bring to the table? I think I
have proved my point here.
Ford Tech
C. E. White
news:LGgoh.1510$8B5.369@trnddc08...
> Florida boat ramps are the absolute pits. The idiots that build them
> think
> they should be as steep as the skyway bridge's main span. With out a
> limited
> slip he's going to have serious issues getting the rig out of the water.
If both wheels are on the same sort of surface, a limited slip is not going
to make much difference. A limited slip doesn't increase the traction
available to the wheels, it just makes sure both are spinning together. If
one wheel is on a slippery surface, and the other is on a high traction
surface, a limited slip is valuable. If both wheels are on the same surface,
a limited slip is not going to work wonders. I have a small farm. All the
farm tractors I have owned have differential locks. In over 35 years of
farming, I have never once found the differential lock to be useful.
Spinning two wheels instead of one might look cool, but it isn't really
doing much to get you moving. And if you are on the side of a hill, spinning
two rear wheels is a good way to have the back of the truck slide down the
hill (I've personal experience with this).
If the ramps are really slippery and steep, 4WD with an open differential is
a lot better than 2WD with a limited slip differential. Admittedly 4WD with
a rear limited slip is better still. I have personally pulled a small
pick-up and pontoon boat up a ramp with my Expedition because the pick-up
just couldn't get enough traction to pull the pontoon boat out of the water.
But then small pick-up are often light in the rear, and the traction
available on a slopped surface is limited even under ideal conditions. A
SportTrac should have more weight on the rear axle than a comparable
pick-up, so I would think it would have less of a problem.
Steep ramps might not be necessary for bass boats, but they sure are nice
for sail boats. For shallow ramps I often have to back the truck out into
the water to get the sail boat floating even though the one I launch has a
swing keel. You ought to try and lunch one with a fixed keel on a shallow
ramp. BTW I've seen my SO pull the sail boat up a ramp with a Toyota Camry
but then it was front wheel drive....
Ed
My Name Is Nobody
"C. E. White" <cewh...@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:45a69184$1@kcnews01...
> "Whitelightning" <white.li...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:LGgoh.1510$8B5.369@trnddc08...
>> Florida boat ramps are the absolute pits. The idiots that build them
>> think
>> they should be as steep as the skyway bridge's main span. With out a
>> limited
>> slip he's going to have serious issues getting the rig out of the water.
>
> If both wheels are on the same sort of surface, a limited slip is not
> going to make much difference. A limited slip doesn't increase the
> traction available to the wheels, it just makes sure both are spinning
> together. If
It absolutely does, limited slip DOUBLES the traction surface available over
what an open differential with ONLY one axel/tire spinning can offer.
Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block) open differential
car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even traction to both
axels? When you stomp on it you only get one big long single black mark,
never two. Because the open differential is never going to power both axels
when you start applying torque and spinning...
Tractors are not the same as cars/trucks with much smaller tires by the way.
I have a 4x4 tractor and use my rear axel lock quite often. One more tire
adding a little bit more traction to overcome the resistance often makes all
the difference.
Ordering a limited slip rear costs a few hundred dollars or less on a new
rig, and is a No-Brainer. The very first time it gets you off some wet
grass without having to lock your hubs (If you happen to have 4X4) or get
pulled out by someone else, you will be thankful you ordered it...
C. E. White
news:ZRwph.5540$V91.2528@trndny05...
>> If both wheels are on the same sort of surface, a limited slip is not
>> going to make much difference. A limited slip doesn't increase the
>> traction available to the wheels, it just makes sure both are spinning
>> together. If
>
> It absolutely does, limited slip DOUBLES the traction surface available
> over what an open differential with ONLY one axel/tire spinning can offer.
I suggest you study up on how a differential works. You will not DOUBLE the
traction with a limited slip if both wheel are on equivalent surfaces. With
an open differential, you can only supply as much torque to either wheel as
will make the wheel with the least traction break loose. If both wheels are
on a surface with the same traction avalable,the amount of torque applied to
both will be approximately the same. Certainly, both wheel don't have
exactly the same traction available, so one will break loose first. However,
this doen't imply that no torque is being applied to the wheel that doesn't
break loose. On the contrary, the same level of torque (or very close to it)
is still being applied to the non-spinning wheel. With a solid rear axle,
the torque reaction will slightly unload one wheel, and load the opposite
wheel a little more. If you are drag racing and applying fuill power, then
the unloaded wheel will always spin first, and this limits the amount of
toruqe applied to the non-spinnng wheel to the same level as for the
spinning wheel (and a spinning wheel can't provide as much traction as a
non-spinning wheel, unless you are really spinning it fast so that it aacts
more like a paddle wheel than a traction device). With a limited slip
differential, the two wheels are locked together under this situation, so
the wheel that is more heavily loaded can develop maximum traction based on
the higher normal force applied to that tire. This is improtant for cases
where you are applying maximum torque, but for someone easing a boat out of
the water it is not so important. The effect is still, there but to a much
less degree. Now if your two wheels are on radically different surfaces, a
limited slip can be very useful. The down side is that if you break both
wheels loose at the same time, you loose lateral location also. This is why
cars with limited slip often fishtail on slippery surface. About the worst
thing you can have on glare ice is a 2WD/RWD car with a torquey V-8 and a
limited slip - especially if there are hills involved.
> Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block) open
> differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
> traction to both axels? When you stomp on it you only get one big long
> single black mark, never two. Because the open differential is never
> going to power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...
Again, you need to study how differentials work. The fact that only one
wheel is spinnng does not mean that torque is not being applied to the
non-spinning wheel. With an open diferential both wheels are getting close
to the same torque, even if one is spinning and the other is not. Leaving
two black marks might be cool, but it doesn't mean that the guy who left one
mark only had half as much traction. When turning or applying lots of power,
the rear wheels are unevenly loaded (not the same normal force), so the two
tires cannot develop the same traction. In this case a limited slip will be
somewhat of an advantage, but it can lead to fish tailing and even a spin
(for reckless kids). For most people, most of the time, the difference in
traction available is trival. For kids who like to spin tires, the
difference is signifiicant, but that is somethnig I am well past.
> Tractors are not the same as cars/trucks with much smaller tires by the
> way.
> I have a 4x4 tractor and use my rear axel lock quite often. One more tire
> adding a little bit more traction to overcome the resistance often makes
> all the difference.
The only thing that happens when I apply the differential lock is that both
tires spin together and I dig two holes instead of one.
> Ordering a limited slip rear costs a few hundred dollars or less on a new
> rig, and is a No-Brainer. The very first time it gets you off some wet
> grass without having to lock your hubs (If you happen to have 4X4) or get
> pulled out by someone else, you will be thankful you ordered it...
I don't disagree that a limited slip is worth the money. But I don't think a
limited slip is necessary for pulling a relatively small boat up a well
constructed ramp. In the case of the OP, I wouldn't go out and trade trucks
becasue I don't have a lmited slip. For many years I pulled the 21 foot sail
boat out with an 2WD F150 with an open rear differential. With the sail boat
I was so far down the ramp that my rear wheels were under water and on the
slippery stuff. I never had a problem pulling the boat out, even up some
really steep ramps.
Ed
C. E. White
> Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block) open
> differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
> traction to both axels? When you stomp on it you only get one big long
> single black mark, never two. Because the open differential is never
> going to power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...
You are confusing breaking a wheel loose with "powering" a wheel. With an
open differential, both wheels always receive approximately the same torque
(the traction to either wheel is limited to the traction available to the
wheel with the least traction). The non-spinning wheel is getting more or
less the same torque applied as the "spinning" wheel. The open differential
allows the wheels to turn at different speeds. With a limited slip, the two
wheels are locked together under some conditions. This means that if you
have enough power you can now break both wheels loose, not just one. If both
wheels have approximately equal traction available, this is not going to be
a big advantage over an open differential. The big advantage of a limited
slip is that both wheels turn together in situations where there is
drastically different traction available to the two wheels - like when one
wheel is on ice and the other is on pavement, or where one wheel is in a
hole and the other is on solid ground. In this case, the traction is not
limited by the wheel with the least traction. Both wheel turn at the
approximately the same speed, even though one wheel has drastically less
traction available. The downside of a limited slip is that if both wheels
are on surfaces with limited traction, both wheels break loose. Once a wheel
is spinning, it is just as likely to go sideways as forward. Since it can
easily go sideways, cars with limited slip are likely to fishtail and can be
easily spun out. I had a Mustang GT with a limited slip rear axle. Is was
very difficult to drive on ice. The rear end was difficult to control. The
car also had traction control, but on ice, this was virtually useless since
it reduced engine power. You could either leave the traction control on, and
the car had virtually no power to climb a hill, or leave it off and have to
wrestle with the rear end. Not fun. 4WD really helps in this situation,
since the front wheels tend to pull you straight.
>
> Tractors are not the same as cars/trucks with much smaller tires by the
> way.
> I have a 4x4 tractor and use my rear axel lock quite often. One more tire
> adding a little bit more traction to overcome the resistance often makes
> all the difference.
Not if you are in a plowed field that is relatively consistent.
> Ordering a limited slip rear costs a few hundred dollars or less on a new
> rig, and is a No-Brainer. The very first time it gets you off some wet
> grass without having to lock your hubs (If you happen to have 4X4) or get
> pulled out by someone else, you will be thankful you ordered it...
I actually agree with you on this. I would always recommend some sort of
limited slip on a 4x4. My Nissan Frontier has an interesting system that
uses the ABS system to lock a spinning wheel (or at least add drag to it).
This applies more torque to the wheel on the more solid surface. So far,
this system seems to work better than a conventional limited slip. However,
I've only used it in mud, never in a situation where one wheel is completely
off the ground. That is not something I do (at least not on purpose).
Ed