We need a charter for alt.transgendered
M. Otto, Virtual Prisoner of the VAX
> Note crossposting. Followups are directed to alt.transgendered.
>
> About a week ago, an...@anon.penet.fi posted a short message to
> alt.transgendered asking about autofellatio. The post did not have any
> content related to T* issues, so I sent the person a polite email message
> asking if sie truly meant to post it to alt.transgendered. I said the
> post more properly belonged somewhere in the alt.sex.* heirarchy.
>
> an...@anon.penet.fi wrote in response:
>
>> No, it was meant for alt.transg... Sexuality and senuality are part
>> of the tv/ts lifestyle and this falls (my opinion) into our needs,
>> desires and relationship(s).
>
> And I responded with this:
>
> ===begin included message===
>
> You're partly right there. It is true that they are a part of the T*
> lifestyle, but your post apparently had nothing to do with any part of that,
> just a sexual technique. You may have wanted to discuss sexual technique as
> it is related to the the fetishistic TV lifestyle, but you did not say so.
>
> I guess you missed the events and discussion that resulted in the creation of
> alt.transgendered. A brief capsule history:
>
> Discussion had been proceeding for several months via IRC and private mailing
> lists about the creation of a public newsgroup to serve the CD/TS/TG community.
> Many things were discussed, the most important thing being the name, location,
> and charter of a TG group.
>
> Then, out of the blue, some %$#@! net.newbie who had not been involved in the
> newsgroup discussion in any way, forged the creation of alt.sex.trans. This
> presented a LOT of problems: the two foremost being that one, it was in the
> alt.sex.* heirarchy, and would suffer from censorship sight unseen, and that
> two, the name and placing of the group would enforce the stereotype that all
> T* people are either transsexuals or fetishistic TV's to one extent or another.
>
> To combat the new group from becoming entrenched, alt.transgendered was formed
> immediately afterward. A measure of our success is that alt.sex.trans has
> very low propagation, and no traffic today.
>
> To keep us out of the line of fire from indiscriminate censors, a loose
> charter has been adopted that basically says: "keep the sexually explicit
> discussions in the alt.sex.* heirarchy."
>
> Before you read some things into my words that aren't there, let me say this:
> I AM AGAINST CENSORSHIP IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM. I truly wish we were free
> to discuss any aspect of T* issues here. But, we must be realists, and
> recognize that censors are out there waiting to pounce. I would hate to think
> that a stupid censor was responsible for keeping one of our brothers or sisters
> out there from finding out that s/he is not alone.
>
> ===end included message===
>
> I exaggerated when I said "a loose charter has been adopted". In my original
> post to alt.config calling for the creation of alt.transgendered, I outlined
> what I thought the group should be for, but I didn't actually say "This is a
> formal charter." Mea culpa: It was late at night/early in the morning, and
> I thought there would be a bit of discussion on alt.config first. Kristine
> surprised me by sending out a newgroup so quickly. C'est la vie.
>
> What I am proposing is that we now hash out a true charter for this group.
> I think I have made my wishes plain with the above included message, but
> in case there is any doubt, I will repost my original "call for creation"
> in a followup message.
>
> Once a formal charter has been drawn up, it should be posted to alt.config.
> I think the lack of discussion on alt.config is part of the propogation
> problem. A formal charter will show admins that there is serious need
> for this group.
>
> *** Marge
>
> If you're reading this post in the group alt.sex.trans, that means propogation
> of alt.transgendered has been (probably inadvertantly) sabotaged. Please tell
> your local newsadmin. I can be reached anonymously at an...@anon.penet.fi, if
> you wish me to make a plea to your newsadmin on your behalf without
> compromising your anonymity.
>
> --
> __ ____ __ ot...@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
> /|/| / / / / / / A virtual prisoner of the VAX // I'm sorry; my karma
> / |. /_/ / / /_/ at The University of North Texas \X/ ran over your dogma
> Denton, USA
M. Otto, Virtual Prisoner of the VAX
original call for creation. I don't know what my editor was thinking, honest.
Well, let's try again.
===begin included message===
X-News: ntvaxb alt.sex.trans:2
Newsgroups: alt.sex.trans,alt.config,alt.sex,alt.sex.bondage
Path: mercury.unt.edu!vaxb.acs.unt.edu!otto
From: ot...@vaxb.acs.unt.edu (M. Otto, "Virtual Prisoner of the VAX")
Subject: alt.sex.trans
Message-ID: <1992Oct30...@vaxb.acs.unt.edu>
Followup-To: alt.config,alt.sex.trans
Summary: Please newgroup alt.transgendered
Lines: 66
Sender: use...@mercury.unt.edu (UNT USENet Adminstrator)
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1992 10:45:38 GMT
Here, unheralded, with nary a peep in alt.config, is the brand new
newsgroup alt.sex.trans. Is the creator willing to come forth and take credit
for hir bold attempt to create a "home" for the occasional scattered TV-TG-TS
discussions that take place elsewhere within USENET? Somehow, I doubt this
very much, as the newgroup control message was forged.
I surmise that the originator knows little about the gender community.
If sie had done a little checking, sie would have found out that there is much
more to the T* spectrum than fetishistic transvestites and seamy erotic
fiction. Those two subjects are the only parts that rightfully belong in the
alt.sex.* heirarchy.
There currently exist two T*-oriented mailing lists: Transgen and CDforum.
Little of the discussion there is about sex. The members exchange views on
how their transgendered nature interacts with different parts of the world at
large, and how the world interacts (or doesn't, as the case may be) with the TG
individuals themselves. This sort of discussion hardly belongs in the
alt.sex.* heirarchy.
Each list has been over the magic 100-member-threshold for quite some time
now. Discussions have been proceeding via the lists, email, and the IRC channel
#Crossdress about the eventual creation of a mainstream soc.* group. Most of
the disagreement was over the name; it needed to be unambiguous, reflect the
entire T* community, and fit within USENET's 14-character domain name limit.
We wanted to do it right the first time; such disagreements can kill a
vote when the potential YES voters willing to have their addresses listed in the
public vote barely number 100. Six months later, there could be opposition
from the numerous net.phobes, now alerted.
Now we have this group to contend with. I fear that a soc.* proposal
may erupt in a flamewar when some net.fool gets it into hir head that someone
is trying to move an alt.sex.* group into the soc.* heirarchy. You, gentle
reader, know better, but I have come to know USENET in all its myriad ways;
there is always SOME knee-jerk censor out there waiting to pounce.
This group is in alt.sex.*. It will suffer from spotty propagation, and
censorship, site unseen. As I've already pointed out, there is discussion out
there that fits this group. The censors who already ban alt.sex.* will most
likely want to ban the fetishist discussion, and erotic TV fiction. We can't
let them lump the rest of the gender community in with that.
I am in no way advocating censorship of ANY T* discussion. I am simply
recognizing that alt.sex.* is already banned in many places, and what sort of
material present within the alt.sex.* heirarchy triggers such banning. The
point is to propagate a T* newsgroup, in spite of the nasty censors out there.
To further this end, I propose a new alt.* group: alt.transgendered.
The greater part of the mailing list discussion that is non-sexual in nature
can find a home here, instead of alt.sex.trans. This group will serve as a
forum for educating the net in what it REALLY means to be transgendered. It
will also be a proving ground for the eventual creation of a soc.* group.
Will some kind soul who's not afraid to send a newgroup in hir OWN name
please create this group? I would do it myself, but I haven't the expertise to
diddle my news server into accepting control commands.
This message has been crossposted to alt.sex.trans, alt.config, alt.sex,
alt.sex.bondage, CDforum, and Transgen. Followups to alt.sex.trans and
alt.config.
===end included message===
Last night, after I posted that "capsule history" of alt.transgendered,
I got this in an email message from a reader who shall remain anonymous.
(because I didn't ask permission to post it first. ;)
> = anonymous correspondent
>> = me in my "capsule history"
:: = me in my email response to the anonymous correspondent
>In article <1992Dec9...@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> you write:
>
>>I guess you missed the events and discussion that resulted in the creation
>>of alt.transgendered. A brief capsule history:
>>
>>Discussion had been proceeding for several months via IRC and private
>>mailing lists about the creation of a public newsgroup to serve the
>>CD/TS/TG community. Many things were discussed, the most important
>>thing being the name, location, and charter of a TG group.
>
>Although I agree with your desire to firm up the charter
>for a.t , I feel compelled to point out that it's entirely
>inappropriate to restrict the discussion of newsgroup creation
>to irc and mailing lists. This should be done on usenet.
>
>Otherwise you are creating exactly the problem you are
>now complaining about.
And I replied:
::The original plan was to decide exactly what we wanted, and a preliminary
::charter, to be presented on alt.config for a period of extended public
::discussion. We felt that a simple message that said "Hey, we need a TG
::newsgroup" would result in exactly what happened: some fool creating
::an inappropriately named newsgroup with low propogation.
::
::As I said, I *tried* to get true public discussion going on alt.config.
::We ended up with a better name, and better propagation, but still not
::ideal. I'm trying to fix the propagation now.
After sending off that email message, I went back and looked at my original
CFC (call for creation) that you see reposted above. I realize now that
although I truly wanted some discussion to happen in alt.config, my post
was a bit strong-worded; it's no wonder that Kristine did not wait for any
discussion in alt.config to happen before sending out the newgroup.
Also, I omitted mentioning that the pre-alt.transgendered discussion had
also included the possibility of a soc.* group. I still hope that one
day we will have it. But first we need a good charter and decent
propagation for this group.
we...@sundown.mil.wi.us
> ===end included message===
> I exaggerated when I said "a loose charter has been adopted". In my original
> post to alt.config calling for the creation of alt.transgendered, I outlined
> what I thought the group should be for, but I didn't actually say "This is a
> formal charter." Mea culpa: It was late at night/early in the morning, and
> I thought there would be a bit of discussion on alt.config first. Kristine
> surprised me by sending out a newgroup so quickly. C'est la vie.
> What I am proposing is that we now hash out a true charter for this group.
> I think I have made my wishes plain with the above included message, but
> in case there is any doubt, I will repost my original "call for creation"
> in a followup message.
> Once a formal charter has been drawn up, it should be posted to alt.config.
> I think the lack of discussion on alt.config is part of the propogation
> problem. A formal charter will show admins that there is serious need
> for this group.
> *** Marge
I agree 100% with Marge. Being a pre-op TS, I feel we need a newsgroup
to discuss issues and help each other. I also agree that we should keep
the blantantly sexual material outta here. I get my feed from a Catholic
University and they don't feed the alt.sex.* groups. I would hate
to have the censor this group.
I will be willing to help put this together. Let me know what I can
do.
Wendy
Celeste
as a no-op TS (a person with a TS history that has no option of
transition at this time) we need to construct out a charter
for alt.transgendered so it may evolve into a soc.transgendered.
The US Consitituion garentees our rights. Our society and social
structure stiamizes us and removes thoses rights! The only way
we can be full productive people is to claim the rights of
"life, liberty and the pursuit of happeness" and insist they
be applied to us. For that we the a political clout that such groups
as the gay people have built.
First we need FQA that includes common terms and goals.
Such terms as "Gender Dysphoria", transgendered, TS.
That is to suggest definitions that are acceptable, yet
flexable. This is to help educate the both the curious and
the gender dysphoric.
Second is our goals. The ones I feel are important
is: 1) provide reference information for gender dysphoric people
and their familiy's. 2) access to information of health care providers,
3) others that are working through their condition, 4)
contacts with support orginization, 5) news of transgender people
6) political issues and 7) employment issues.
In the FQA I would like to information on TV/TS policies of
all companies that have such programs and what companies that
have dischared TV/TS people!
In short, we can become the eletronic version of what the IFGE
(Internation Federation for Gender Education) has done in the
magazine press.
The day I discovered Tapestry, the IFGE publication, hope was
born in my life. That night I cried and cried as I read the
letters. I learned I was not alone. I learned I was not crazy.
I learned I had a place in this world and I could make a difference!
At the New Women conference they have a ritual of lighting a candle
for each peron that was know to commite sucide or killed because of their
gender dysporia.
I have a newspaper clipping of a M->F TS that was a son of retired
judge. The father killed his son, his wife and himself because his
son (who was very passable) was a transsexual and wanted to
transistion.
The current Tapestry as a letter from a friend/lover of one who
commited sucide because her familiy would not accept her condition
and wanted to have an "exorcism" done on her.
How many will be broken and lost?
What can we do to stop the loss of such people?
How can we make a difference?
Love,
Celeste
Lorraine Lee
>I agree 100% with Marge. Being a pre-op TS, I feel we need a newsgroup
>to discuss issues and help each other. I also agree that we should keep
>the blantantly sexual material outta here. I get my feed from a Catholic
>University and they don't feed the alt.sex.* groups. I would hate
>to have the censor this group.
>
>I will be willing to help put this together. Let me know what I can
>do.
>
>Wendy
Me too. I don't even consider it a question of censorship. It's a question of
whether *.transgendered CAN do what it's set up to do if it's also doing
titillation and 4-year-old level bathroom humor.
Yours for an ever-improving newsgroup;
Lorraine
Melissa Preston
Celeste <celeste%exp...@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov> writes (slightly reformatted):
> [...] we need to construct out a charter for alt.transgendered so it
> may evolve into a soc.transgendered.
I'd agree that having a charter is a pretty sensible thing, even though this group does seem to have done fairly well in terms of good sense without it.
> First we need FQA that includes common terms and goals. Such terms
> as "Gender Dysphoria", transgendered, TS. That is to suggest definitions
> that are acceptable, yet flexable. This is to help educate the both
> the curious and the gender dysphoric.
I'm not sure that a FAQ (I presume that's what Celeste meant) should be
our first priority. You don't need a FAQ list in order to have a charter.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have one, just that we'll get a charter set
up much faster if we don't have to worry about writing up a FAQ list.
> Second is our goals. The ones I feel are important is:
> 1) provide reference information for gender dysphoric people and their
> families.
> 2) access to information of health care providers,
> 3) others that are working through their condition,
> 4) contacts with support orginization,
> 5) news of transgender people
> 6) political issues
> 7) employment issues.
I'm not sure whether Celeste meant these as goals for the FAQ list or goals
for the newsgroup itself. I think as goals for information to include in an FAQ list, comprehensively covering all these issues would be rather a heavy undertaking.
As things to discuss in the newsgroup the topics are a start, but strike
me as a little narrow. Things ommitted (unless they count as `reference'
information) include:
- Relevant real life experiences (including early history, such as
the discovery of one's transgenderal feelings).
- Hints and Tips for `passing'.
- Good places and ways to shop.
- Current theories and therapies for gender dysphoria.
- Techniques used in sex change surgery.
- Meta-discussions. (Talking about the newsgroup itself).
There's probably plenty of subject areas I'm missing here. If you know
of some others, you can always post (or maybe send them as mail to Marge
<ot...@vaxb.acs.unt.edu>, who is currently something of a newsgroup
custodian for this group (BTW, Thanks for all you're doing Marge)).
Perhaps what we need to state even more definately are the things we *don't* want here.
- No totally unrelated sexual material.
- No graphic descriptions of sexual encounters, even if they do have
some kind of relevance. (You can always offer to mail people a more
complete description than the one you've posted).
- No `obscene' language.
And no, like others, it isn't that I'm a prude. It's just that I want
to protect the group from coming under attack unnecassarily. I'm sure
that there is no relevant message that cannot be conveyed under these
restrictions.
> In short, we can become the eletronic version of what the IFGE
> (Internation Federation for Gender Education) has done in the magazine
> press.
Well, I'd say that while there should be some overlap, magazines and
newsgroups are quite a bit different in they way they work. I don't
think that this newsgroup could, or should, be a substitute for the work
of the IFGE. Instead it should be complementary.
Anyway, I've gone on enough.
Regards,
Melissa.
P.S.
I'm not actually sure what a good `newsgroup charter' looks like. Anyone
care to post one from some other group for reference.
--
Okay, so I got it wrong; I guess I was in a hurry. // Melissa Preston
// ah...@yfn.ysu.edu