A Teen Witches Veiw ...
Talesin- Patriot and Witch
"Chris Cottrell" <MTN-...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:<XvTp7.41092$r72.180...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>...
> "Travis Phillips" <tphi...@seidata.com> wrote in message
> news:9o8pus$2cmr$1...@news2.seidata.com...
> > Greetings!
> > On Behalf of all these tragic events i would like to send my
> blessings
> > to all involved. May The Goddess Bless You!
> >
> > Alot of people discard the veiws a teenager has because they think
> they are
> > more important than us, well here is my veiw on these tragic events
> >
> > I think that Bush should take action! I hate the thought of more
> people
> > being killed...even if they are at war with the U.S. I think that we
> shall
> > get bin laden ( i dont think he deserves his name to be capitalized)
> and
> > make him pay for this. When i heard about what happened last tesday
> i was
> > scared..and furious..and worried that it will happen again..i guess
> this is
> > what pure hatred and evil brings.
First of all, thank you for taking the time to express your views. I don't
know about others, but I make it appoint to listen to what teenagers have to
say. Sometimes I have no choice since there are usually two or three hanging
about the house.! ;)
You are right, we do need to take action and for the very reason you have
stated. These people only know hate and violence. You can't rehabilitate
rabid dogs and you can not make peace with terrorists. The only way to stop
them is, in fact, to stop them.
> >
> > I have a website if you are intrested in veiwing it.
> > http://clix.to/wiccandude21
Very nice page. I see you are a follower of the Rede which states "Harm
none." I would suggest that, by allowing those who would wantonly destroy
innocent human lives for no reason other than hatred and religious bigotry
to go unopposed as Chrissy suggests, we are allowing harm and, by our
inaction, causing it.
> >
> > Blessed Be!
> >
> > Travis Phillips
>
Now I would like to respond to my friend Chrissy
> Teen views, like everyone's views, are always important. I have
> taught and worked with many young people and have found them to have
> valuable input and perspectives.
Let me tell you something about American teenagers: they resent being
patronized.
>
> As to your opinions posted above, please take care not to buy the
> political line.
Of course, he should buy YOUR political line. Be aware, Travis, that Chrissy
here is not American. She does not understand, let alone value, the freedoms
we enjoy every day. She comes from Great Britain, a very Socialist country
that has done more than its own fair share of oppressing other peoples
including our own.
>
> First, worldwide the best anyone's intelligence (US, Britain, Germany,
> Russia, etc) can say is that the recent terrorism carries the
> characteristics of bin Laden's work, but there is no hard evidence to
> confirm it. Russia has stated that they will join in finding him as
> soon as they see hard evidence bin Laden ordered or contributed to
> these events, but as of this evening there is yet any firm evidence to
> confirm it.
>
This is a lie. The very first thing we did was put every investigative
resource we had to work on finding out who is responsible for these attacks
just so we would not make the mistake of attacking the wrong party. In the
words of the Justice Department, there is "overwhelming evidence" that bin
laden (I don't think it should be capitalized either) is the source of the
atrocity that was committed. I might remind you that he has committed
terrorist acts against the US in the past (e.g. the 1998 bombings of
American embassies in Africa and the 1993 attack on the WTC) and has
declared war on us.
> Second, this action did not spring from a vacuum. Due to a large and
> convoluted history, the US has come to be viewed by many in the
> Islamic world (not all, but many) as having a hand in creating the
> imbalances that currently plague the Islamic nations. Our involvement
> in the creation and support of Israel (alternately, Occupied
> Palestine), the collateral damage (civilian casualties) in various
> military actions carried on by the US in Kuwait and Iran and
> Afghanistan and other nations in that area, the religious
> insensitivities demonstrated by US citizens and officials, are just a
> few of the complaints levelled at us by various Islamic nations and
> sects. Knocking off bin Laden is not going to address those issues;
> it will only add to the list.
>
If you study the Islamic fundamentalists who orchestrated this outrage, you
will see that they are enemies of freedom to their very core. As Salman
Rushdie (sic) can tell you, they don't allow freedom of speech. They put a
bounty on his head and forced him to live in hiding because he wrote things
the Mullahs didn't like in his book "The Satanic Verses." They destroyed
many priceless works of Buddhist art (and many Buddhists) because they hate
religious freedom. They wrap their women up in shapeless robes that only
allow their eyes to be seen and treat them like cattle because they don't
believe in equality of the sexes.
The REAL reason they hate us is because of what we represent- freedom of
thought, action, and belief as well as the rights of an individual to BE an
individual.
Don't let these Socialist Liberals convince you that we are somehow
responsible for this attack on our great nation, especially since this
country has never been anything but a friend and ally to free persons
everywhere- even the Afghanis.
> The Middle East is a complex problem that no one knows how to unravel,
> least of all me, but declaring a "war" (even the President knows this
> is not a true war, as the perceived and only *suspected* enemy is not
> a true nation and is nomadic instead of land-based) and committing
> military forces will not address the underlying festering issues; the
> likelihood is that it will only lead to bin Laden moving on to the
> martyrdom he is probably hoping to achieve. I don't think I want to
> see bin Laden's beatific face on posters all over the hidden training
> camps and cell groups' walls, providing an impetus to destroying the
> "great satan US".
>
This statement is uninformed conjecture. This is indeed a war and there is
indeed an identifiable and defeatable enemy. We have the obligation to rout
and destroy both terrorists and those who support them. It will be a long
and difficult war, but we will win.
Had countries like Great Britain, which tolerate terrorism on their shores,
taken this stand decades ago, we would not be having this discussion and
over 5000 innocent Americans would be alive today.
> It is natural to feel fear; we all have felt it, and the point of
> terrorism is to force that fear into our lives. It is also natural to
> want to take action, maybe even revenge, but that's counterproductive
> in a number of ways. Terrorism thrives on counterattack, and I don't
> think you want to expand the range of hurt or the desire to strike
> back at the US again. And while the violence goes on, it becomes more
> and more difficult for thought to take root, more difficult for wisdom
> to halt the destruction. It becomes harder to avoid spreading the
> misery, to avoid hurting more innocents, to avoid creating more
> collateral damage to civilians here and abroad.
>
Terrorism does not "thrive on counterattack." Terrorism thrives on fear and
the reluctance to fight back. Again, I refer you to the decades-long
violence in Great Britain. If you look back on history, you will find that,
sad as it may be, the only way to stop violence is with violence. It is the
only thing these people understand.
Another look at history will show you that this attitude of "just think good
thoughts and terrorism will go away" has cost thousands and thousands of
lives and has not done a thing to quell terrorism. Just a couple of weeks
ago one of the many IRA spin-offs was throwing bombs at little girls on the
way to school. So much for rubber bullets and water cannons.
> It is easy to vilify those that have done this to us, but in vilifying
> them we cease to see those that did this as human beings; in so doing
> we become just like them. They first vilified us; after deciding we
> are "devils" instead of human beings, it became easier, acceptable,
> almost required, to kill us. Why would we want to take up that path?
> It's the first step toward bigotry. It's how Japanese-Americans got
> put into concentration camps in California. It's how Jewish people
> were systematically exterminated. It's how black people got/get
> lynched in the South and given fewer opportunities. It's how native
> peoples get robbed of their land, resources, and lives. It's how
> peace-loving and innocent moslems get attacked in the US and Britain
> in the aftermath of Tuesday's events. The only true evil at work is
> that which is resident in human nature, which makes it so easy and
> attractive to go for that simple answer and so self-righteously
> good-feeling to cause another injury for "righteousness's sake" (when
> it's simple ignorance of the facts).
>
Oh please! We were ATTACKED by these craven monsters. There is no need to
vilify anyone. They have vilified themselves. They drew first blood and they
started the war. Now we must and will take action to defend our nation and
the world. To do this is not evil but extraordinarily good.
> Don't let your heart be twisted. If you feel something must be done,
> if you feel you must do something, then put in time volunteering.
> History proves meeting violence with violence only perpetuates
> violence and suffering. Violence does not go away until a different
> path is struck. Please be one of those that finds a path towards
> sanity and out of this madness.
Don't let your mind be twisted, either.
Again a look at history will show that this Liberal Socialist notion that
"somehow" peace and freedom will take care of themselves is total bullshit.
Great Britain has followed this notion and what has it done for them? You
see police with assault rifles at the airport. You dare not go to a
department store or large gathering for fear yet another car bomb will go
off. Children are endangered simply by getting on a school bus. People live
with fear and terror as part of their daily lives. Is this the kind of
country you want to live in?
History proves that the only way to insure peace is to be ready to fight for
it. No despots or terrorists- Hitler, Stalin, the KKK, the IRA among them-
no evil in the history of mankind has EVER been stopped by good thoughts,
candlelight vigils, or prayers for peace. They have been stopped only by
bombs, bullets, and the shedding of blood. This is the price of freedom;
something people like Chrissy will never understand.
>
> I am glad you have strength enough of character to want to act. I
> hope you help us find a way to resolve this; I hope your attempts to
> find the light in this darkness will help pull in the light for us
> all.
Travis, as an American, you know the light we seek in these times can only
be found in the rockets' red glare. We all stand proudly upon the freedoms
won for us by the blood of our fathers and, when the time comes for us to
take our turn defending this great land, we will do them proud and make sure
that they did not die in vane. We are not afraid.
Thanks again for expressing yourself. On these groups, that can be an act of
bravery in and of itself.
--
Talesin- Patriot and Witch
ICQ 86535317
AIM Tales1n
http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft
We are not afraid!
Casey & Finnigan
news:k8eq7.329185$GN.46...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> First of all, thank you for taking the time to express your views. I
don't
> know about others, but I make it appoint to listen to what teenagers have
to
> say. Sometimes I have no choice since there are usually two or three
hanging
> about the house.! ;)
Ah yes, speaking of an example of pure hatred...
> You are right, we do need to take action and for the very reason you have
> stated. These people only know hate and violence. You can't rehabilitate
> rabid dogs and you can not make peace with terrorists. The only way to
stop
> them is, in fact, to stop them.
Or better yet, whine on usenet for someone else to stop them.
> > I have a website if you are intrested in veiwing it.
>
> > > http://clix.to/wiccandude21
>
> Very nice page. I see you are a follower of the Rede which states "Harm
> none." I would suggest that, by allowing those who would wantonly destroy
> innocent human lives for no reason other than hatred and religious bigotry
> to go unopposed as Chrissy suggests, we are allowing harm and, by our
> inaction, causing it.
Nice little guilt trip. You have a hard enough time tying your shoes let
alone interpreting theology for the masses.
> Now I would like to respond to my friend Chrissy
And I will respond to you in kind...
> > As to your opinions posted above, please take care not to buy the
>
> > political line.
>
> Of course, he should buy YOUR political line. Be aware, Travis, that
Chrissy
> here is not American. She does not understand, let alone value, the
freedoms
> we enjoy every day. She comes from Great Britain, a very Socialist country
> that has done more than its own fair share of oppressing other peoples
> including our own.
LOL - I always find your anti-British lines such curious statements coming
from an 'English' witch. I honestly suspect that if something 'English'
strangled your testies, scooted across your carpet and then dry humped your
leg, like many other things in your weedy little life, you'd still need a
clue and a free map on how to find one.
> > First, worldwide the best anyone's intelligence (US, Britain, Germany,
> > Russia, etc) can say is that the recent terrorism carries the
> > characteristics of bin Laden's work, but there is no hard evidence to
> > confirm it. Russia has stated that they will join in finding him as
> > soon as they see hard evidence bin Laden ordered or contributed to
> > these events, but as of this evening there is yet any firm evidence to
> > confirm it.
> This is a lie. The very first thing we did was put every investigative
> resource we had to work on finding out who is responsible for these
attacks
> just so we would not make the mistake of attacking the wrong party. In the
> words of the Justice Department, there is "overwhelming evidence" that bin
> laden (I don't think it should be capitalized either) is the source of the
> atrocity that was committed.
Prove it.
I might remind you that he has committed
> terrorist acts against the US in the past (e.g. the 1998 bombings of
> American embassies in Africa and the 1993 attack on the WTC) and has
> declared war on us.
So have some of your militas...
> > Second, this action did not spring from a vacuum. Due to a large and
> > convoluted history, the US has come to be viewed by many in the
> > Islamic world (not all, but many) as having a hand in creating the
> > imbalances that currently plague the Islamic nations. Our involvement
> > in the creation and support of Israel (alternately, Occupied
> > Palestine), the collateral damage (civilian casualties) in various
> > military actions carried on by the US in Kuwait and Iran and
> > Afghanistan and other nations in that area, the religious
> > insensitivities demonstrated by US citizens and officials, are just a
> > few of the complaints levelled at us by various Islamic nations and
> > sects. Knocking off bin Laden is not going to address those issues;
> > it will only add to the list.
>
> If you study the Islamic fundamentalists who orchestrated this outrage,
you
> will see that they are enemies of freedom to their very core.
If nothing, you are certainly good at spouting the Bushite line.
As Salman
> Rushdie (sic) can tell you, they don't allow freedom of speech.
Neither do you.
They put a
> bounty on his head and forced him to live in hiding because he wrote
things
> the Mullahs didn't like in his book "The Satanic Verses."
You threaten magical retribution to those who intimidate your intellectual
wasteland then you hide beneath your killfile blankie when it gets too
intence.
They destroyed
> many priceless works of Buddhist art (and many Buddhists) because they
hate
> religious freedom.
You attack all religions save your own kitchen witch practise.
They wrap their women up in shapeless robes that only
> allow their eyes to be seen and treat them like cattle because they don't
> believe in equality of the sexes.
Most people are hoping you wrap yourself up.
> The REAL reason they hate us is because of what we represent- freedom of
> thought, action, and belief as well as the rights of an individual to BE
an
> individual.
I suspect they'd hate you because your a wheezing little prat, David.
> Don't let these Socialist Liberals convince you that we are somehow
> responsible for this attack on our great nation, especially since this
> country has never been anything but a friend and ally to free persons
> everywhere- even the Afghanis.
LOL. American History was something that everyone else read in school,
right? Granted, you did qualify it with 'free'. Now slaves...
> > The Middle East is a complex problem that no one knows how to unravel,
> > least of all me, but declaring a "war" (even the President knows this
> > is not a true war, as the perceived and only *suspected* enemy is not
> > a true nation and is nomadic instead of land-based) and committing
> > military forces will not address the underlying festering issues; the
> > likelihood is that it will only lead to bin Laden moving on to the
> > martyrdom he is probably hoping to achieve. I don't think I want to
> > see bin Laden's beatific face on posters all over the hidden training
> > camps and cell groups' walls, providing an impetus to destroying the
> > "great satan US".
>
> This statement is uninformed conjecture. This is indeed a war and there is
> indeed an identifiable and defeatable enemy. We have the obligation to
rout
> and destroy both terrorists and those who support them. It will be a long
> and difficult war, but we will win.
>
> Had countries like Great Britain, which tolerate terrorism on their
shores,
> taken this stand decades ago, we would not be having this discussion and
> over 5000 innocent Americans would be alive today.
Sort out your militia problems, then come back to the table. Your moral
highground is currantly below sea level, David.
--
Casey & Finnigan - purveyors of fine Single Malt Highland whisky brewed on
the wild west coast of Canada in a MacUisdin bathtub
Chris Cottrell
TrollTalespin killfiled (one can take only so much pointless violence
of spirit and idiocy) and hadn't seen his "response" to my post.
I will ignore the vast majority of The TrollTalespin's words as
undeserving of response, but I will address one point which he stated
as fact and got very wrong. He used this point as a way of
invalidating my response and dismissing my views, attempting to
assassinate my character and belittle my viewpoint on the basis of
nationality. He made assumptions about me, my experiences and my
views on the basis of that nationality, a point that would have been
very easy to research, a point about which I have been quite open and
forthcoming and voceroforous.
I am an American citizen, born and raised. Other than one brief day
spent in Canada, I have never been outside the contiguous USA. I went
to school here, live a stone's throw from Washington, DC, have a
teenaged daughter and a grown son who live here. I have immediate and
extended family in the US military, including my deceased father. I
have voted here, worked for reform here, volunteered in various
capacities in order to make this land and this world a better place.
I am on record writing glowing words in praise of my birthplace in the
Virginia Highlands and of my wish to return there permanently, rather
than just the several times a year I return to visit family.
It would appear The TrollTalespin makes very adamant statements on the
basis of little or no research; I think it would be prudent to treat
all his "opinions" as suspect and possibly founded on prejudice alone.
The remainder of his post does not in my estimation deserve to be
dignified with any response; response only serves to encourage
trollish behavior in people like him.
Thank you.
-Chris
Archaiser
<snipped>
> Of course, he should buy YOUR political line. Be aware, Travis, that
> Chrissy here is not American. She does not understand, let alone value,
> the freedoms we enjoy every day. She comes from Great Britain, a very
> Socialist country that has done more than its own fair share of oppressing
> other peoples including our own.
You might want to check your facts on this, AFAIK Chris is as American as
they come. The Lady claims to be anyway, and I have seen nothing to rebut
the claim.
<snipped>
> Had countries like Great Britain, which tolerate terrorism on their
> shores, taken this stand decades ago, we would not be having this
> discussion and over 5000 innocent Americans would be alive today.
If you care to check on this, I believe you will find that on each occasion
that Britain has gone "Hard Line" against the afore mentioned gangs, the
rest of the world, including, at the forefront America, has screamed merry
hel from the rooftops, and immediately applied extreme political pressure
to prevent it.
<snipped>
> Terrorism does not "thrive on counterattack." Terrorism thrives on fear
> and the reluctance to fight back. Again, I refer you to the decades-long
> violence in Great Britain. If you look back on history, you will find
> that, sad as it may be, the only way to stop violence is with violence. It
> is the only thing these people understand.
And what was the American take on the shooting of the terrorists in
Gibraltar ?. Screams of protest, again. Did you stand "shoulder to
shoulder" with us then ?.
<snipped>
Of course, now, the perspective has changed, hasn't it.?
Because it has happened to you, on your own soil. I sympathise with you -
more than you can know - but I'm glad that America's eyes have been opened
at last to this threat to the world - I am however, very sad that it was
such a rough awakening.
Perhaps now America will cease pouring money into NORAID and other similar
causes, thus funding these thugs that so threaten our freedom and liberty.
BTW - you might find the item below representative.
There are many others.
TUESDAY, JUNE 24, 1997
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on International Operations
and Human Rights,
Committee on International Relations,
Washington, DC.
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa42396.000/hfa42396_0.HTM
--
Be Well
Archaiser
By Thy Manners, Let thou be judged.
de Valois
> know about others, but I make it appoint to listen to what teenagers have to
> say. Sometimes I have no choice since there are usually two or three hanging
> about the house.! ;)
>
He keeps them in the refrigerator for when he runs out of Ho-Ho's. How
Jeffrey Dahmer of you!
> You are right, we do need to take action and for the very reason you have
> stated. These people only know hate and violence. You can't rehabilitate
> rabid dogs and you can not make peace with terrorists. The only way to stop
> them is, in fact, to stop them.
>
Which is why I've determined, TailLesion, that you need to go, as
well. You can't be rehabilitated. You need to be stopped.
Carl
We're fatter than Afghanistan! - David Lloyd Willard's chins
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <witc...@bigfoot.XXcom> wrote in message
news:k8eq7.329185$GN.46...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
Chrissy
> here is not American. She does not understand, let alone value, the
freedoms
> we enjoy every day. She comes from Great Britain, a very Socialist country
> that has done more than its own fair share of oppressing other peoples
> including our own.
Ye Gods Tailspin!
Are you trying to anglicise the entire population of Free Pagan Usenet??
First you become British........now Chris is accorded that honour as well.
BWAAAAAAAA(etc.)
This is above even your usual standard for inept moronitude.
What a git...
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
de Valois
>
> Ye Gods Tailspin!
>
> Are you trying to anglicise the entire population of Free Pagan Usenet??
> First you become British........now Chris is accorded that honour as well.
>
> BWAAAAAAAA(etc.)
>
> This is above even your usual standard for inept moronitude.
>
> What a git...
CW,
You have to keep in mind which personality you're talking to when you
talk to TailLesion. Next week, after his prescription runs out again,
he'll be back to being true-blue 'Murican and anti-Brit.
Carl
We're bigger than Jesus! - JWLennon
Talesin- Patriot and Witch
"Archaiser" <Arch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ERhq7.775$ua3.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
How typically English to whine about the Americans not coming to your aid.
How many times do we have to bail you guys out of trouble? We should just
can Lizzy and the Windsor gang and make GB the 51st state.
Talesin- Patriot and Witch
> Pardon my piggybacking at this point, gentlemen; I have The
> TrollTalespin killfiled (one can take only so much pointless violence
> of spirit and idiocy) and hadn't seen his "response" to my post.
> basis of little or no research; I think it would be prudent to treat
> all his "opinions" as suspect and possibly founded on prejudice alone.
>
> The remainder of his post does not in my estimation deserve to be
> dignified with any response; response only serves to encourage
> trollish behavior in people like him.
>
> Thank you.
> -Chris
Of course. You can not counter my facts and reasoning so you fall upon the
lamest and oldest UseNet gambit of all: you mumble a few lame insults, call
me a "troll," and say "I am not worth responding to." Game, set, match,
Talesin, again.
Too bad you didn't have the guts to defend yourself but, then again, that
was my whole point.
Archaiser
> How typically English to whine about the Americans not coming to your aid.
> How many times do we have to bail you guys out of trouble? We should just
> can Lizzy and the Windsor gang and make GB the 51st state.
>
David you are doing it again :)
As is your wont you take a throw away phrase out of context and reply to
it, leaving the rather more serious points about american support for
terrorism. and interference in attempts to quell it, unanswered.
Since you seem to have overlooked these points I will simplify.
I have no wish for the americans to come to our aid, I would just like them
to cease their interference in UK anti-terrorist actions and desist from
terrorist support. That's all.
Clear now ?
Cardinal Fang
>"Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <witc...@bigfoot.XXcom> wrote in message news:<k8eq7.329185$GN.46...@typhoon.kc.rr.com>...
>> First of all, thank you for taking the time to express your views. I don't
>> know about others, but I make it appoint to listen to what teenagers have to
>> say.
Given his history (witnessed by yours truly), Tales listens and encourages FEMALE
teenagers only. He only listens to MALE teenagers when he thinks they have something
he wants.....like acting the role of a throw-away ally. Usually, most the manipulated ones
come to their senses after of few months of being his "mental plaything".
Cardinal Fang ho...@earthlink.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead me not to temptation, I enjoy finding it myself.
Chris Cottrell
You are on record as working with bad information, misinformation,
hatred, bigotry, and a myopia that allows you to totally ignore facts
even when they are screaming in your face. I am not going to join you
in waging a verbal war in the middle of this person's sincere and
innocent post so that you can attempt to move forward your agenda;
it's manipulative on your part, as well as being opportunistic and
insensitive.
As to the points you raised... Well, once again they are flawed to
their foundation and there is no point in beginning. I am an american
citizen, born and raised; you stated as fact (without the slightest
attempt to verify your assumption; a chronic action of yours) that I
was British, and therefore somehow flawed in my reasoning on that
basis. You stated categorically that my information was false, in
spite of the fact that *all* my information was pulled from the big 3
major network tv reportage (ABC, CBS, NBC), and therefore well
documented and widely reported. And you assert violence does not lead
to more violence, when I have experience and observation that violence
tends (in the vast majority of cases) to escalate into more violence,
especially when each side does *not* try to understand the other and
try to resolve the central issues.
In this country (the US, where *I* reside), it is supposed to be the
people who rule; as such the citizenry is obligated to keep themselves
apprised of the facts and to listen to all sides of the argument, so
as to bring pressure to bear on the individuals that hold public
office (whether elected or appointed, these individuals are
accountable, and accountable ultimately if not directly to the voters)
to act in accordance with the voters' wishes. And some of us do not
want to work hard, rather we prefer to work smart, and in so doing
reduce the misery and suffering and deaths. In this situation that
intent becomes all the more important; I do not want to experience the
escalation of this atrocity, which will surely arise from foreign
sentiments being so endemic in the world.
Where did I ever state that we should merely "think good thoughts"? I
said work for the common good and think carefully; but you seem to
disagree with that approach. Your actions and your attitude
demonstrate an adherence to the very opposite of working for the
common good and/or thinking carefully.
The true measure of a person's character is what they do when no one
is looking (when they can act anonymously, without being held
accountable by others); what you do posting behind your anonymous
web-name speaks volumes about your character.
-Chris
de Valois
>
> The true measure of a person's character is what they do when no one
> is looking (when they can act anonymously, without being held
> accountable by others); what you do posting behind your anonymous
> web-name speaks volumes about your character.
>
That should read "nameS", Chris. The Bitch of Witchcraft is a known
stalker and sock-puppeteer.
And if that's the true measure of someone's character, then Daveyboy
should stand next to bin-Laden when the firing squad takes aim.
Carl
We're fatter than Rosie! - TailLesion's thighs
Talesin- Patriot and Witch
> Talesin- Patriot and Witch Politely suggested :
>
> > How typically English to whine about the Americans not coming to your
aid.
> > How many times do we have to bail you guys out of trouble? We should
just
> > can Lizzy and the Windsor gang and make GB the 51st state.
> >
>
> David you are doing it again :)
It's Talesin, Archie. Do try to get that much right
> As is your wont you take a throw away phrase out of context and reply to
> it, leaving the rather more serious points about american support for
> terrorism. and interference in attempts to quell it, unanswered.
>
I read what you wrote and did not discern anything worth responding to. An
isolated incident on a barren rock and some Liberals whining before a
Congressional sub committee. I can not counter points that have not been
made
> Since you seem to have overlooked these points I will simplify.
>
> I have no wish for the americans to come to our aid, I would just like
them
> to cease their interference in UK anti-terrorist actions and desist from
> terrorist support. That's all.
Oh, it's our fault that you have allowed terrorists free reign in your
country for half a century now, is it?
I found it quite interesting to see Tony Blair in the gallery during Our
President's address this evening. You could see the wheels turning behind
his stone-like face: "Make appearances with the Americans now, get help
wiping out the IRA later."
> Clear now ?
You know, I don't like you. You are a troll of the worst kind- a
disingenuous one. You cavort with the likes of "I de Salvo" one minute and
then want to conduct intellectual discourse with someone of my caliber the
next. You have no right to expect me to respond to you, let alone demand it.
Clear now?
Archaiser
>> David you are doing it again :)
>
> It's Talesin, Archie. Do try to get that much right
Terribly sorry Davey old boy.
But I keep mis-spelling it as Taliesin, I'm sure you know the problem.<g>
So if it's all the same to you, I'll stick with Davey.
>> As is your wont you take a throw away phrase out of context and reply to
>> it, leaving the rather more serious points about american support for
>> terrorism. and interference in attempts to quell it, unanswered.
>>
>
> I read what you wrote and did not discern anything worth responding to. An
> isolated incident on a barren rock and some Liberals whining before a
> Congressional sub committee. I can not counter points that have not been
> made
Mmm - looks like I need to work on inter dimensional writing, I assumed,
wrongly it would appear, that the english language was spoken in your
isolated little universe. Or were the concepts too alien for you ?.
If so I apologise, I will try to think of a way to simplify them, again.
>
> Oh, it's our fault that you have allowed terrorists free reign in your
> country for half a century now, is it?
No - It's your fault that we have been prevented from stopping the free
reign - as we have attempted to do many times.
> I found it quite interesting to see Tony Blair in the gallery during Our
> President's address this evening. You could see the wheels turning behind
> his stone-like face: "Make appearances with the Americans now, get help
> wiping out the IRA later."
It was probably more like - "Maybe this bunch will let us get on with it
now - without sticking their oar in again."
>> Clear now ?
>
> You know, I don't like you. You are a troll of the worst kind- a
> disingenuous one. You cavort with the likes of "I de Salvo" one minute and
> then want to conduct intellectual discourse with someone of my caliber the
> next. You have no right to expect me to respond to you, let alone demand
> it. Clear now?
Davey boy - I would love to have an intellectual discussion with you,
perhaps like the ones I have had with Carl, or Noinden or Jules or others.
But, sadly, such a thing requires the understanding of the other
participants point of view in order to debate and discuss, and this is
something you appear demonstrably incapable of.
On the plus side though, your calibre can only improve, and, since your
feelings for me are not reciprocated by myself, ( I do have a certain
fondness for you you know<g>), I am quite happy for you to practice with
me, in conjunction with any private lessons you may be taking, ( Have you
thought about joining the local school debating society ?. They are quite
gentle and won't shout at you.). I think Jani and 'Thenie would probably
also pitch in and help a little, ( How about it Girls ?), and, if you ask
him *very* nicely possibly CursusWalker might add a little advice from time
to time.
If you are ever in any doubt about whether you are being rude or
unreasonable, please, just ask, they are helpful people in this group and
someone is bound to point you in the right direction.
Best Wishes to WebQueen
--
Your Friend
Archie
Fenris Wolf
Chris Cottrell <MTN-...@prodigy.net> writes
>And you assert violence does not lead
>to more violence, when I have experience and observation that violence
>tends (in the vast majority of cases) to escalate into more violence,
>especially when each side does *not* try to understand the other and
>try to resolve the central issues.
It Is Time to Declare War
By Leonard Peikoff
September 19, 2001—Fifty years of increasing American appeasement
in the Mideast have led to fifty years of increasing contempt in the
Muslim world for the U.S. The climax was the thousands of deaths on
September 11, 2001—the blackest day in our history, so far. The
Palestinians, illustrating the region's hatred of what Iran calls "the
Great Satan," responded to America's agony by dancing in the streets and
handing out candy.
Fifty years ago, Truman and Eisenhower surrendered the West's
property rights in oil, although that oil rightfully
belonged to those in the West whose science, technology, and capital
made its discovery and use possible. The first
country to nationalize a Western oil company, in 1951, was Iran. The
rest, observing our frightened silence, hurried to grab
off their piece of the newly available loot.
The cause of the U.S. silence was not practical, but
philosophical. The Arab dictators were denouncing wealthy
egotistical capitalism. They were crying that their poor needed our
sacrifice; that oil, like all property, is owned collectively,
by virtue of birth; and that they knew their viewpoint was true by means
of otherworldly emotion. Our Presidents had no
answer. Implicitly, they were ashamed of the Declaration of
Independence. They did not dare to answer aloud that
Americans, properly, were motivated by the selfish desire to achieve
personal happiness in a rich, secular, individualist
society.
The Arabs embodied in extreme form every idea — selfless duty,
anti-materialism, faith or feeling above science, the supremacy of the
group — which our universities, our churches, and our own political
Establishment had long been upholding as the essence of virtue. When two
groups, our leadership and theirs, accept the same basic ideas, the most
consistent side wins.
After property came liberty. In the first year of his theocratic
revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini kidnapped 52 U.S. diplomatic personnel in
Iran and held them hostage; Carter's reaction was fumbling paralysis.
About a decade later, Iran topped this evil. Khomeini issued his
infamous Fatwa aimed at preventing the publication, even outside his
borders, of ideas uncongenial to Muslim sensibility. This was the
meaning of his threat to kill the British author Rushdie and to destroy
his American publisher; their crime was the exercise of their right to
express an unpopular intellectual viewpoint. Here was
government censorship on the widest scale. It was Iran's attempt,
reaffirmed after Khomeini's death, to stifle, anywhere in
the world, the very process of thought. Bush Sr. looked the other way.
After liberty came American life itself, which had been inviolate
from foreign murder-networks for two centuries. The first killers were
the Palestinian hijackers of the late 1960s. But the killing spree which
has now shattered our soaring landmarks, our daily routine, and our
souls, began in earnest only after the license granted by Carter and
Bush Sr.
Many nations work to fill our body bags. But Iran, according to a
State Department report of 1999, is "the most active
state sponsor of terrorism," training and arming groups from all over
the Mideast, including Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and Hezbollah. Nor is
Iran's government now "moderating." Less than five months ago, the
world's leading terrorist groups met and resolved to unite in a holy war
against the U.S., which they called "a second Israel"; this meeting was
held in Teheran.(Fox News 9/16/01)
What has been the U.S. response to the above? In 1996, nineteen
U.S. soldiers were killed in their barracks in Saudi
Arabia. According to a front-page story in The New York Times (6/21/98):
"Evidence suggesting that Iran sponsored the attack has further
complicated the investigation, because the United States and Saudi
Arabia have recently sought to improve relations with a new, relatively
moderate Government in Teheran." In other words, Clinton evaded Iran's
role because he wanted, in his words, "a genuine reconciliation." In
public, of course, he continued to vow that he would find
and punish the guilty. Clinton's inaction in this instance is comparable
to his action after bin Laden's attack on U.S.
embassies in East Africa; his action was the gingerly bombing of two
meaningless targets.
Conservatives are equally responsible for today's crisis, as
Reagan's record attests. Reagan not only failed to retaliate
after 241 U.S. marines were slaughtered in Lebanon; he did worse.
Holding that Islamic guerrillas were our ideological
allies because of their fight against the atheistic Soviets, he
methodically poured money and expertise into Afghanistan. This
put the U.S. wholesale into the business of creating terrorists. Most of
them regarded fighting the Soviets as only the beginning; our turn soon
came.
For more than a decade, there was a further guarantee of American
impotence: the claim that a terrorist is a man alone
responsible for his actions, and that each, therefore, must be tried as
an individual before a court of law. This viewpoint,
thankfully, is fading; most people now understand that terrorists exist
only through the sanction and support of a government.
We do not need to prove the identity of any of these creatures,
because terrorism is not an issue of personalities. It cannot be stopped
by destroying bin Laden and his army (although I hope they are already
dead)—or even by destroying the destroyers everywhere. If that is all we
do, a new army of militants will soon rise up to replace the old one.
The behavior of such militants is that of the regimes which make
them possible. Their atrocities are not crimes, but acts
of war. The proper response to such acts, as the public now understands,
is a war in self-defense. In the excellent words of Paul Wolfowitz, the
deputy secretary of defense, we must "end states who sponsor terrorism."
Ending a state requires a war fought without self-crippling
restrictions placed on our commanders in the field. It
requires a real war, not the halfway fiasco or the public-relations
charade of the Bush-Clinton years. These requirements
rule out a coalition with the U.N., and especially with any terrorist
nation(s)—which latter is the equivalent of going into
partnership with the Soviet Union in order to fight Communism (under the
pretext, say, of proving that we are not anti-Russian).
If America's President were to court a Mideastern coalition, it
would be an admission that he needs the approval of
terrorist nations in order to fight them. It would be a public
declaration that the world's only superpower does not have
enough self-confidence to act unilaterally in its own defense. Better to
do nothing than to flaunt such moral cowardice, and thereby to invite
into our cities the next wave of suicide-seekers.
If we do not wage a proper war now, then when? If our appeasement
has led to an escalation of disasters in the past,
can it do otherwise in the future? Do we wait until the terrorists
unleash against us the nuclear, chemical, and biological
weapons they are rushing to get hold of?
The future of America is at stake. The risk of a U.S.
overreaction, therefore, is negligible. The only risk is
underreaction.
A proper war is one fought with the most effective weapons we
possess (Rumsfeld reportedly refuses, correctly, to
rule out nuclear weapons).And it is one fought in the manner most
beneficial to the American cause, regardless of the
suffering and death this will bring to countless innocents caught in the
line of fire. Only this approach ensures that the war
will be won as quickly as possible, and with the fewest American
casualties.
The public understandably demands immediate retaliation against
Afghanistan. But in the wider context Afghanistan is
insignificant. It is too physically devastated even to breed many
fanatics.
Since it is no more these days than a place to hide,
its elimination would do little to end terrorism.
Terrorism is a specific disease, which can be treated only by a
specific antidote. The nature of the disease (though not
of its antidote) is suggested by Serge Schmemann in The New York Times
(9/16/01).Our struggle now, he writes in part, is
"not a struggle against a conventional guerrilla force, whose yearning
for a national homeland or the satisfaction of some
grievance could be satisfied or denied. The terrorists [on Tuesday] . .
.
issued no demands, no ultimatums. They did it
solely out of grievance and hatred—hatred for the values cherished in
the West as freedom, tolerance, prosperity, religious
pluralism and universal suffrage, but abhorred by religious
fundamentalists (and not only Muslim fundamentalists) as
licentiousness, corruption, greed and apostasy."
Every word of this is true. The obvious implication is that the
struggle against terrorism is ultimately a struggle of ideas,
which can be dealt with only by intellectual and philosophical means.
But this fact does not depreciate the crucial role of our
armed forces. On the contrary, it increases their effectiveness, by
pointing them to the right target.
Most of the Mideast is ruled by range-of-the-moment thugs who
would be paralyzed by an American victory over any
one of their neighbors. Iran, however, is the only major country in the
region ruled by zealots dedicated not to material gain
(such as more wealth or territory), but to the triumph by any means,
however violent, of Islamic fundamentalism. This is
why Iran manufactures the most terrorists.
If one were under a Nazi aerial bombardment, it would be
senseless to restrict one's defensive efforts to Nazi satellites
while ignoring Germany and the ideological plague it is working to
spread. What Germany was to Nazism in the 1940s,
Iran is to terrorism today. Whatever other countries it strikes,
therefore, the U.S. can put an end to the Jihad-mongers only
by taking out Iran.
We must not only wipe out Iran's terrorist sanctuaries, its
training camps, and its military capability. We must also do
the equivalent of de-Nazifying the country, by expelling every official
and bringing down every branch of its government.
This is a goal that cannot be achieved painlessly, by bombs and missiles
alone. It requires invasion by ground troops, who
will be at serious risk, and perhaps a period of occupation. But nothing
less will "end the state" that most cries out to be
ended.
The greatest obstacle to U.S. victory is not Iran and its allies,
but our own intellectuals. Even now, they are preaching
the same ideas that led to our historical paralysis. They are asking a
reeling nation, in the name of "restraint," to apply only
economic and diplomatic pressures, like those that have failed so
spectacularly and for so long. The multiculturalist
professors are pushing "understanding" in the name of avoiding "racism"
(i.e., any condemnation of "another culture"). The friends of "love" are
reminding us, not too loudly yet, of our duty to turn the other cheek.
The Superintendent of Schools in San Diego led a discussion of
the bin Laden attack in an eleventh-grade history
class. Among other things, he asked the students to empathize with the
feelings that the event would engender in a Palestinian; and also "to
compare the victims killed in the World Trade Center with those who died
in Hiroshima." (San Diego Union-Tribune, 9/13/01)
These are the kinds of voices that will be heard increasingly in
the universities, the churches, and the media as the
country recovers from its first shock, and the professoriate et al. feel
emboldened once again to conduct their ideological
"business as usual." These voices are a siren song luring us to
untroubled sleep while the fanatics proceed to gut America.
We can avert the catastrophe only if our government is courageous
enough to hold out against the siren-singers. This
requires, at minimum, that our bombs and troops be accompanied by our
President's passionately righteous statement that
we have broken with the clichés of our paper-tiger past and that the
U.S. now places America first.
Mr. Bush must make it clear that we regard the war against
terrorism as a sacred obligation to our Founding Fathers,
to every victim of the men who hate this country, and to ourselves. He
must make the world understand that hereafter, as a
matter of principle, we will always and everywhere take up arms to
secure an American's right to life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness here on earth.
The choice today is mass death in the United States or mass death
in the terrorist nations. Our Commander-In-Chief
must decide whether it is his duty to save Americans or the governments
who conspire to kill them.
Leonard Peikoff is the founder of the Ayn Rand Institute in Marina del
Rey, California. The Institute promotes the philosophy of Ayn Rand,
author of Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead.
Dr. Peikoff will also be speaking live [streaming RealAudio] this Sunday
23rd Sept. on the Andrew Lewis show 7p.m. UK time - sparks will fly.
As a warm up you can test your system here
http://www.alshow.com/demo.shtml
--
Fenris Wolf
Fenris Wolf
<mor...@broomstick.co.uk> writes
>>Quit fucking with the follow-ups. I always notice and fix them.
>
>to be rude/nasty, but if you can answer for my own curiosity, it would be
>appreciated.
>
>What do you get out of this?
I have a question too. (Note that I have reinstated the groups that
have been cut.)
In normal usenet etiquette, it is considered common courtesy to state
you are altering the follow up line. Here, in the Pagan groups, it
seems to be used as a weapon to undermine the unsuspecting. Why?
X-posting is an accepted part of usenet where many groups have
overlapping content, and often there are groups whose content is
identical, and the x-posts are seen as a way of gaining the input from
those whose specialist knowledge may add to a discussion, and prevent
identical threads and multiple single posts, which is happening in this
discussion. When someone cuts the groups unilaterally, people following
a thread may never see the answers, never get the chance to contribute.
Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do not
wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
--
Fenris Wolf
de Valois
>
> Terribly sorry Davey old boy.
> But I keep mis-spelling it as Taliesin, I'm sure you know the problem.<g>
> So if it's all the same to you, I'll stick with Davey.
>
TailLesion would work, as well.
Jani
Hash: SHA1
"Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:64bKdDD3...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> X-posting is an accepted part of usenet where many groups have
> overlapping content, and often there are groups whose content is
> identical, and the x-posts are seen as a way of gaining the input
> from those whose specialist knowledge may add to a discussion, and
> prevent identical threads and multiple single posts, which is
> happening in this discussion. When someone cuts the groups
> unilaterally, people following a thread may never see the answers,
> never get the chance to contribute.
There is a difference between crossposting specialist knowledge to
relevant groups, which I agree is perfectly acceptable, and
eliminating trolls.
>
> Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do
> not wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
Some Pagans would rather not have crossposting trolls in their
newsgroup, since the trollposts then outweigh the valid exchange of
information which you mention above. I have yet to see anyone demand
the removal of crossposts when the topic concerned is interesting and
informative. I have, however, seen many requests, from alt* and
elsewhere, for crossposts to be removed when the material posted is
irrelevant to the group. For example, I have left the follow-ups
intact here, since the general point you make is relevant - in my
opinion - to all the groups involved.
However, I do not see that it is 'insular and inward looking' for any
unmoderated group to remove crossposts in follow-ups or employ
individual killfiles in order to eliminate deliberate trolling and
spamming, or simply to direct a discussion to a forum where it is
more appropriate. On the blueyonder service ngs, which are set up for
very specific and closely-defined purposes, it is customary to add
'FU's set to...' at the end of the post in which the other ngs are
cut. Perhaps a similar practice - 'FU's set to ATW/ARW', for example
- - would relieve your evident and understandable anxiety that posters
are missing valid debate, ensure that they could still access and
participate in the discussion, and at the same time allow individal
groups to set their own signal-to-noise ratio.
Jani
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Fenris Wolf
<ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>"Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:64bKdDD3...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
>
>> X-posting is an accepted part of usenet where many groups have
>> overlapping content, and often there are groups whose content is
>> identical, and the x-posts are seen as a way of gaining the input
>> from those whose specialist knowledge may add to a discussion, and
>> prevent identical threads and multiple single posts, which is
>> happening in this discussion. When someone cuts the groups
>> unilaterally, people following a thread may never see the answers,
>> never get the chance to contribute.
>
>There is a difference between crossposting specialist knowledge to
>relevant groups, which I agree is perfectly acceptable, and
>eliminating trolls.
You eliminate trolls by not replying to them. And who is going to
decide on the definition of troll in a particular context? By taking a
decision that affects other posters you are limiting their freedom to
read and reply to what they will. If you do not like a particular
poster then use a kill file. If you do not wish to follow a particular
thread then kill it. But by taking unilateral action you are imposing
your views on everyone.
>>
>> Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do
>> not wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
>
>Some Pagans would rather not have crossposting trolls in their
>newsgroup, since the trollposts then outweigh the valid exchange of
>information which you mention above.
There are censored (moderated!) groups for those afraid of the rough and
tumble of usenet posting. Otherwise there are general guidelines and
its up to you what you read or leave.
>I have yet to see anyone demand
>the removal of crossposts when the topic concerned is interesting and
>informative. I have, however, seen many requests, from alt* and
>elsewhere, for crossposts to be removed when the material posted is
>irrelevant to the group. For example, I have left the follow-ups
>intact here, since the general point you make is relevant - in my
>opinion - to all the groups involved.
There's the problem. You are assuming total agreement with your
assessment of what is relevant. The whole point of usenet is the
freedom to decide for yourself. Hence kill files. Playing with the
groups as is being done in these threads is stealing that right to
choose.
>
>However, I do not see that it is 'insular and inward looking' for any
>unmoderated group to remove crossposts in follow-ups or employ
>individual killfiles in order to eliminate deliberate trolling and
>spamming, or simply to direct a discussion to a forum where it is
>more appropriate. On the blueyonder service ngs, which are set up for
>very specific and closely-defined purposes, it is customary to add
>'FU's set to...' at the end of the post in which the other ngs are
>cut. Perhaps a similar practice - 'FU's set to ATW/ARW', for example
>- would relieve your evident and understandable anxiety that posters
>are missing valid debate, ensure that they could still access and
>participate in the discussion, and at the same time allow individal
>groups to set their own signal-to-noise ratio.
Actually it is pretty normal over most of usenet to indicate where
follow ups are set to in the body of a post. It allows those who do not
agree with the last posters decision to alter it, and for others to
subscribe to entire groups! if they wish to see perhaps one single post
which formed the answer! This is fine if the group where the discussion
is being diverted to is a small one, but what if it is a busy group with
many posts every hour? You are condemning people to a choice between
downloading huge amounts of unwanted material or missing the rest of a
discussion they may have been following avidly.
If there is no interest in a thread it will die when no-one answers the
postings in it. This method of culling groups from the headers appears
to be nothing more than a crude attempt at censorship, a means of
preventing those with whom the censors disagree from presenting
alternative views to the members of the groups they seek to 'protect'
from that viewpoint.
--
Fenris Wolf
RSPCA-Animadversion
http://www.webtribe.net/a/animadversion/animadversion.htm
Child Rescue
Thorn
> wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
I'll explain my objection, other peoples may vary. I have no problem
when someone starts a thread and posts it to a number of ng's to see if
they can get a variety of views, I do get annoyed when someone other
than the orginal poster takes it on themselves to add groups because
they want to stir discord. This one is classic the teen in question,
who's orginal post didn't appear on UKRP (not sure where they posted it)
had UKRP added by Tales so he could take issue with someone posting from
another ng who also posts here and he erronously identified as being
British.
Hopefully the teen who did post is getting some advice somewhere, all
we're seeing here is a slanging match.
In general the alt groups don't cross post to the local hierarchies as
people on local hierarchies also subscribe to the alts, if they're
interested.
UKRP does do a certain amount of crossposting within the uk hierarchy.
Look at who's in this crosspoesting all but one an alt group, where are
the other local pagan groups if it was about sharing information I would
have thought the ontario or texan local hierarchies more germaine to the
topic, than a UK one.
--
Thorn (BMW)
Reality, as you experience it, will conform to your beliefs about how it
is.
Jani
Hash: SHA1
"Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <witc...@bigfoot.XXcom> wrote in
message news:tpvq7.351296$Jg.47...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
Now, now, David, it's a very lame Usenet gambit to post endless
bombast and verbosity quite unsupported by facts, and then accuse
those who've countered with hard evidence of 'mumbling lame insults'.
You really should try something a little more subtle.
Of course you're worth responding to: your attempts at disruption
invariably encourage many responses from those who are quite happy to
disseminate genuine information across Pagan Usenet in response to
your trolling. Perhaps if you saw yourself as the grit which polishes
the gemstones, you'd have a much clearer idea of your purpose in
life?
HTH
Jani
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Jani
Hash: SHA1
"Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Oqdn5yDu...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> In article <5dOq7.4630$cZ6.3...@news1.cableinet.net>, Jani
> <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >"Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:64bKdDD3...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> >
> >> X-posting is an accepted part of usenet where many groups have
> >> overlapping content, and often there are groups whose content is
> >> identical, and the x-posts are seen as a way of gaining the
> >> input from those whose specialist knowledge may add to a
> >> discussion, and prevent identical threads and multiple single
> >> posts, which is happening in this discussion. When someone cuts
> >> the groups
> >> unilaterally, people following a thread may never see the
> >> answers, never get the chance to contribute.
> >
> >There is a difference between crossposting specialist knowledge to
> >relevant groups, which I agree is perfectly acceptable, and
> >eliminating trolls.
>
> You eliminate trolls by not replying to them. And who is going to
> decide on the definition of troll in a particular context? By
> taking a decision that affects other posters you are limiting their
> freedom to read and reply to what they will. If you do not like a
> particular poster then use a kill file. If you do not wish to
> follow a particular thread then kill it. But by taking unilateral
> action you are imposing your views on everyone.
If it were the case that all posters only subscribe to one newsgroup
each, then I would agree that 'unilateral action' by a single poster
kills the entire thread. But that is not the case, is it? If you know
of posters who are complaining that they are unable to sub to more
than one newsgroup, and cannot follow up xposts on another hierarchy,
then I think it would be up to those people to ask their ISPs to
carry the relevant groups.
> >> Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do
> >> not wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
> >
> >Some Pagans would rather not have crossposting trolls in their
> >newsgroup, since the trollposts then outweigh the valid exchange
> >of information which you mention above.
>
> There are censored (moderated!) groups for those afraid of the
> rough and tumble of usenet posting. Otherwise there are general
> guidelines and its up to you what you read or leave.
There are also FAQs and charters on some of unmoderated groups, which
include rules regarding crossposting. UKRP, for instance, allows a
certain number of relevant crossposts, which was designed to allow
the free flow of relevant information which you referred to
previously. However, since the group is not moderated, and therefore
part of the 'rough and tumble of Usenet posting', it is up to
individuals to killfile, to remove crossposts, and indeed to add
crossposts up to the number within the charter.
>
> >I have yet to see anyone demand
> >the removal of crossposts when the topic concerned is interesting
> >and informative. I have, however, seen many requests, from alt*
> >and
> >elsewhere, for crossposts to be removed when the material posted
> >is irrelevant to the group. For example, I have left the
> >follow-ups intact here, since the general point you make is
> >relevant - in my opinion - to all the groups involved.
>
> There's the problem. You are assuming total agreement with your
> assessment of what is relevant. The whole point of usenet is the
> freedom to decide for yourself. Hence kill files. Playing with
> the groups as is being done in these threads is stealing that right
> to choose.
Since I left the crossposts *in*, I fail to see where I am stealing
anyone's right to choose, either by your definition or by mine. I am
not assuming that any one individual will see this thread as
relevant, only that - since it now pertains to Usenet protocol in
general, rather than a specific query regarding teen witches - it is
appropriate that the other newsgroup users already on the thread can
access it.
>
> >
> >However, I do not see that it is 'insular and inward looking' for
> >any unmoderated group to remove crossposts in follow-ups or employ
> >individual killfiles in order to eliminate deliberate trolling and
> >spamming, or simply to direct a discussion to a forum where it is
> >more appropriate. On the blueyonder service ngs, which are set up
> >for very specific and closely-defined purposes, it is customary to
> >add 'FU's set to...' at the end of the post in which the other ngs
> >are cut. Perhaps a similar practice - 'FU's set to ATW/ARW', for
> >example - would relieve your evident and understandable anxiety
> >that posters are missing valid debate, ensure that they could
> >still access and participate in the discussion, and at the same
> >time allow individal groups to set their own signal-to-noise
> >ratio.
>
> Actually it is pretty normal over most of usenet to indicate where
> follow ups are set to in the body of a post.
If 'please confine this to alt*, crossposts removed' constitutes an
indication that FU's are set elsewhere, then I fail to see what your
original complaint is. You began by saying that removing crossposts
was a unilateral decision which deprived posters of valuable
discussion, which I agreed was a valid point. I suggested that
indicating where follow-ups were set would be a reasonable
compromise. Now you assert that this is already common practice.
It allows those who do not
> agree with the last posters decision to alter it, and for others to
> subscribe to entire groups! if they wish to see perhaps one single
> post which formed the answer! This is fine if the group where the
> discussion is being diverted to is a small one, but what if it is a
> busy group with many posts every hour? You are condemning people
> to a choice between downloading huge amounts of unwanted material
> or missing the rest of a discussion they may have been following
> avidly.
Perhaps you don't know about Google archives? Let me explain. If a
discussion is transferred to a group which you do not have
downloaded, there is a website which archives the majority of posts
(rather more than are carried by some erratic ISPs, in fact) and it
is possible not only to follow the discussion there, but also to post
replies. Subscribing to the group in question, and downloading all
the current content, is not necessary.
>
> If there is no interest in a thread it will die when no-one answers
> the postings in it. This method of culling groups from the headers
> appears to be nothing more than a crude attempt at censorship, a
> means of
> preventing those with whom the censors disagree from presenting
> alternative views to the members of the groups they seek to
> 'protect' from that viewpoint.
Well, it's a mistake often made by people who are new to Usenet. I
shouldn't worry about it too much, Fenris - it isn't hard to keep up
with discussions which have been shifted elsewhere, or to learn to
access them through Google. Once you've got the hang of that, you can
spend some time looking at the content of the posts and working out
why crossposts have been added or removed. That'll give you a much
better idea of the dynamics.
Jani
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NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"de Valois" <de_v...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:ba90be62.01092...@posting.google.com...
Split personality if you ask me :-)
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <witc...@bigfoot.XXcom> wrote in message
>
> "Chris Cottrell" <MTN-...@prodigy.net> ALSO wrote in message
> news:O1gq7.42012$sq3.200...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> > Pardon my piggybacking at this point, gentlemen;
> > The remainder of his post does not in my estimation deserve to be
> > dignified with any response; response only serves to encourage
> > trollish behavior in people like him.
>
> lamest and oldest UseNet gambit of all: you mumble a few lame insults,
call
> me a "troll," and say "I am not worth responding to." Game, set, match,
> Talesin, again.
> Too bad you didn't have the guts to defend yourself but, then again, that
> was my whole point.
You dissembling fuckwit.
Let's see what you chose to snip from that last post shall we?
> "Chris Cottrell" <MTN-...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:O1gq7.42012$sq3.200...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
>
> I will ignore the vast majority of The TrollTalespin's words as
> undeserving of response, but I will address one point which he stated
> as fact and got very wrong. He used this point as a way of
> invalidating my response and dismissing my views, attempting to
> assassinate my character and belittle my viewpoint on the basis of
> nationality. He made assumptions about me, my experiences and my
> views on the basis of that nationality, a point that would have been
> very easy to research, a point about which I have been quite open and
> forthcoming and voceroforous.
>
> I am an American citizen, born and raised. Other than one brief day
> spent in Canada, I have never been outside the contiguous USA. I went
> to school here, live a stone's throw from Washington, DC, have a
> teenaged daughter and a grown son who live here. I have immediate and
> extended family in the US military, including my deceased father. I
> have voted here, worked for reform here, volunteered in various
> capacities in order to make this land and this world a better place.
> I am on record writing glowing words in praise of my birthplace in the
> Virginia Highlands and of my wish to return there permanently, rather
> than just the several times a year I return to visit family.
Talesin: the one "man" Trolling textbook.
Chris is American.
You fucked up
And *THEM'S* the facts
LOL!!!
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
>
> You eliminate trolls by not replying to them. And who is going to
> decide on the definition of troll in a particular context? By taking a
> decision that affects other posters you are limiting their freedom to
> read and reply to what they will.
No.
You exercise your freedom to post to those groups you *wish* to post to,
having noticed the follow-up line.
>If you do not like a particular
> poster then use a kill file. If you do not wish to follow a particular
> thread then kill it. But by taking unilateral action you are imposing
> your views on everyone.
A very pseudo-libertarian take on a perfectly reasonable action.
> There are censored (moderated!) groups for those afraid of the rough and
> tumble of usenet posting. Otherwise there are general guidelines and
> its up to you what you read or leave.
Ah.........do I spy an agenda?
> There's the problem. You are assuming total agreement with your
> assessment of what is relevant. The whole point of usenet is the
> freedom to decide for yourself. Hence kill files. Playing with the
> groups as is being done in these threads is stealing that right to
> choose.
And again...
So this must mean that you're being oppressed, huh?
> Actually it is pretty normal over most of usenet to indicate where
> follow ups are set to in the body of a post. It allows those who do not
> agree with the last posters decision to alter it, and for others to
> subscribe to entire groups! if they wish to see perhaps one single post
> which formed the answer! This is fine if the group where the discussion
> is being diverted to is a small one, but what if it is a busy group with
> many posts every hour? You are condemning people to a choice between
> downloading huge amounts of unwanted material or missing the rest of a
> discussion they may have been following avidly.
>
> If there is no interest in a thread it will die when no-one answers the
> postings in it. This method of culling groups from the headers appears
> to be nothing more than a crude attempt at censorship, a means of
> preventing those with whom the censors disagree from presenting
> alternative views to the members of the groups they seek to 'protect'
> from that viewpoint.
"imposing"
"stealing"
"condemning"
"culling"
Are you, by any chance, in politics at all? :-)
Proportion, sense of.
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
Fenris Wolf
Where did I say that unilateral action by a single poster kills an
entire thread?
>If you know
>of posters who are complaining that they are unable to sub to more
>than one newsgroup, and cannot follow up xposts on another hierarchy,
>then I think it would be up to those people to ask their ISPs to
>carry the relevant groups.
>
Some ISPs refuse, as does Demon when asked to carry free.uk.* groups.
The argument, however, is that most people subscribe to a few
newsgroups, and follow threads of interest in them. It is an irritation
to find discussions with many of the posts marked 'unavailable' even
when a newsreader is asked to fetch them. Then you have to go back to
the previous post and find out which newsgroups might have been left in
the subject line and subscribe in the hope that you will find what you
are looking for?
>
>> >> Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do
>> >> not wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
>> >
>> >Some Pagans would rather not have crossposting trolls in their
>> >newsgroup, since the trollposts then outweigh the valid exchange
>> >of information which you mention above.
>>
>> There are censored (moderated!) groups for those afraid of the
>> rough and tumble of usenet posting. Otherwise there are general
>> guidelines and its up to you what you read or leave.
>
>There are also FAQs and charters on some of unmoderated groups, which
>include rules regarding crossposting.
Those rules are unenforceable. If you treat them as anything other than
guidelines you will end up with high blood pressure! <g>
>UKRP, for instance, allows a
>certain number of relevant crossposts, which was designed to allow
>the free flow of relevant information which you referred to
>previously. However, since the group is not moderated, and therefore
>part of the 'rough and tumble of Usenet posting', it is up to
>individuals to killfile, to remove crossposts, and indeed to add
>crossposts up to the number within the charter.
I think that you will find that the only actual rule relating to x-posts
that is enforceable to any extent is the rule imposed by the
cancellers/censors regarding BI>20, and even that is not accepted by
some ISPs like Altopia, and is also subject to those who 'resurrect'
such posts.
>>
>> >I have yet to see anyone demand
>> >the removal of crossposts when the topic concerned is interesting
>> >and informative. I have, however, seen many requests, from alt*
>> >and
>> >elsewhere, for crossposts to be removed when the material posted
>> >is irrelevant to the group. For example, I have left the
>> >follow-ups intact here, since the general point you make is
>> >relevant - in my opinion - to all the groups involved.
>>
>> There's the problem. You are assuming total agreement with your
>> assessment of what is relevant. The whole point of usenet is the
>> freedom to decide for yourself. Hence kill files. Playing with
>> the groups as is being done in these threads is stealing that right
>> to choose.
>
>Since I left the crossposts *in*, I fail to see where I am stealing
>anyone's right to choose, either by your definition or by mine.
Sorry, the *you* was a generalism, and not meant to mean you personally.
>I am
>not assuming that any one individual will see this thread as
>relevant, only that - since it now pertains to Usenet protocol in
>general, rather than a specific query regarding teen witches - it is
>appropriate that the other newsgroup users already on the thread can
>access it.
The point being that you made a decision as to what was appropriate and
what might not be.
>>
>> >
>> >However, I do not see that it is 'insular and inward looking' for
>> >any unmoderated group to remove crossposts in follow-ups or employ
>> >individual killfiles in order to eliminate deliberate trolling and
>> >spamming, or simply to direct a discussion to a forum where it is
>> >more appropriate. On the blueyonder service ngs, which are set up
>> >for very specific and closely-defined purposes, it is customary to
>> >add 'FU's set to...' at the end of the post in which the other ngs
>> >are cut. Perhaps a similar practice - 'FU's set to ATW/ARW', for
>> >example - would relieve your evident and understandable anxiety
>> >that posters are missing valid debate, ensure that they could
>> >still access and participate in the discussion, and at the same
>> >time allow individal groups to set their own signal-to-noise
>> >ratio.
>>
>> Actually it is pretty normal over most of usenet to indicate where
>> follow ups are set to in the body of a post.
>
>If 'please confine this to alt*, crossposts removed' constitutes an
>indication that FU's are set elsewhere, then I fail to see what your
>original complaint is.
A general one about the usual removal without notice of x-posts in these
groups.
>You began by saying that removing crossposts
>was a unilateral decision which deprived posters of valuable
>discussion, which I agreed was a valid point. I suggested that
>indicating where follow-ups were set would be a reasonable
>compromise. Now you assert that this is already common practice.
Which it is, except where people are having a mini-war among themselves,
or harassing a particular poster.
>
>It allows those who do not
>> agree with the last posters decision to alter it, and for others to
>> subscribe to entire groups! if they wish to see perhaps one single
>> post which formed the answer! This is fine if the group where the
>> discussion is being diverted to is a small one, but what if it is a
>> busy group with many posts every hour? You are condemning people
>> to a choice between downloading huge amounts of unwanted material
>> or missing the rest of a discussion they may have been following
>> avidly.
>
>Perhaps you don't know about Google archives? Let me explain. If a
>discussion is transferred to a group which you do not have
>downloaded, there is a website which archives the majority of posts
>(rather more than are carried by some erratic ISPs, in fact) and it
>is possible not only to follow the discussion there, but also to post
>replies. Subscribing to the group in question, and downloading all
>the current content, is not necessary.
The Google archives are a mess. The excellent service that was, when it
was Deja News, has been turned into a difficult to follow, virtually
unsearchable morass. Have they improved it in the last couple of
months?
In any case, to follow a thread on Google, a web based interface, is
painstakingly slow, and horribly expensive for those who have to pay for
their time online.
>>
>> If there is no interest in a thread it will die when no-one answers
>> the postings in it. This method of culling groups from the headers
>> appears to be nothing more than a crude attempt at censorship, a
>> means of
>> preventing those with whom the censors disagree from presenting
>> alternative views to the members of the groups they seek to
>> 'protect' from that viewpoint.
>
>Well, it's a mistake often made by people who are new to Usenet. I
>shouldn't worry about it too much, Fenris - it isn't hard to keep up
>with discussions which have been shifted elsewhere, or to learn to
>access them through Google. Once you've got the hang of that, you can
>spend some time looking at the content of the posts and working out
>why crossposts have been added or removed. That'll give you a much
>better idea of the dynamics.
>
Nice try Jani, but I have more to do in life than wait for Google to
move from post to post. Incidentally, I have a pretty fair idea of why
x-posts are being removed on these groups, and I said before, it goes
way back.
--
Fenris Wolf
Fenris Wolf
<cursuswalker@NO.?> writes
>> There are censored (moderated!) groups for those afraid of the rough and
>> tumble of usenet posting. Otherwise there are general guidelines and
>> its up to you what you read or leave.
>
>Ah.........do I spy an agenda?
Hopefully one which all on these groups will share - that of freedom of
speech and opposition to censorship on the wider usenet. <g>
--
Fenris Wolf
Lush
Chris Cottrell <MTN-...@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:LbCq7.42628
> You are on record as working with bad information, misinformation,
> hatred, bigotry, and a myopia that allows you to totally ignore facts
> even when they are screaming in your face.
The myopia is driven by his petty needs and fears. He will see whatever he
needs to see to justify his petty and desperate arguments which in turn prop
up his fearful personality.
The recent issue with URP over the pagan files episode was a case in point.
Tales felt the desperate to be seen as the champion of "free pagan usenet".
As you say his posts on this subject were spectacular for there "myopia that
allows you to totally ignore facts even when they are screaming in your
face."
Every time I read a post by this creature I am torn amongst laughter, pity
and contempt. I do not know what the appropriate response to this basket
case is.
Blessed be,
Lush
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
Wombat
I'm not siding with anyone (seeing as how I'm under orders from Cardinal
Fang to be "non-combat" <g>) but surely it is up to the individual to
subscribe to a newsgroup they wish to participate in? If they are
interested in a particular thread why don't they subscribe for the duration
then unsubscribe when it's finished? Easy solution.
I think, personally, that when someone adds crossposts in a reply (thus
flinging the thread open to people on other newsgroups) to a post that was
only posted on URP (ie, meant for URP subscribers) they are being a bit
rude, and the initial poster who intended the message for a specific
newsgroup is quite within their rights to cut the crossposts out.
Otherwise, isn't it just like someone inviting the TV cameras into someone
elses private conversation? I mean, if you don't wanna buy the book, but
you want to read the story, you go visit the library, you don't read it over
someones shoulder...
Just my opinion... hope I haven't offended or repeated stuff...
Wombat
--
"Universal responsibility is the key to human survival.
It is the best foundation for world peace." - Dalai Lama
Jani
Hash: SHA1
"Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:XkFB6kBJ...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> In article <yyQq7.4997$cZ6.4...@news1.cableinet.net>, Jani
> <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
<snips, as this is getting untidy>
> >> You eliminate trolls by not replying to them. And who is going
> >> to decide on the definition of troll in a particular context?
> >> By taking a decision that affects other posters you are limiting
> >> their freedom to read and reply to what they will. If you do
> >> not like a particular poster then use a kill file. If you do
> >> not wish to follow a particular thread then kill it. But by
> >> taking unilateral action you are imposing your views on
> >> everyone.
> >
> >If it were the case that all posters only subscribe to one
> >newsgroup each, then I would agree that 'unilateral action' by a
> >single poster kills the entire thread. But that is not the case,
> >is it?
>
> Where did I say that unilateral action by a single poster kills an
> entire thread?
One poster removing crossposts will, you asserted, kill the thread
for those who are following it on that group. If I remove UKRP from
this crosspost, those posters who do not subscribe to the alt* groups
will see no more of it. I am pointing out that, out of the four alt*
groups where this is appearing (servers willing), it is highly
unlikely that the UKRP subscribers are unable to access at least one
of those groups and continue following the discussion, if they so
wish.
>
> >If you know
> >of posters who are complaining that they are unable to sub to more
> >than one newsgroup, and cannot follow up xposts on another
> >hierarchy, then I think it would be up to those people to ask
> >their ISPs to carry the relevant groups.
> >
> Some ISPs refuse, as does Demon when asked to carry free.uk.*
> groups. The argument, however, is that most people subscribe to a
> few
> newsgroups, and follow threads of interest in them. It is an
> irritation to find discussions with many of the posts marked
> 'unavailable' even when a newsreader is asked to fetch them. Then
> you have to go back to the previous post and find out which
> newsgroups might have been left in the subject line and subscribe
> in the hope that you will find what you are looking for?
If Demon does not carry the groups which you, as a paying customer,
request, then that is something which you must take up with Demon, or
take your custom elsewhere. Most ISPs are fairly hit-and-miss when it
comes to what they have the capacity to download - missed posts are
virtually endemic - but if you want to access specific ngs which your
server refuses to carry, then the answer is not to insist on
crossposts, but to find a more suitable ISP.
> >
.
> >>
> >> There are censored (moderated!) groups for those afraid of the
> >> rough and tumble of usenet posting. Otherwise there are general
> >> guidelines and its up to you what you read or leave.
> >
> >There are also FAQs and charters on some of unmoderated groups,
> >which include rules regarding crossposting.
>
> Those rules are unenforceable. If you treat them as anything other
> than guidelines you will end up with high blood pressure! <g>
*G* My blood pressure's fine. I'm not sure about some other people,
though :) Seriously - in some cases, they *are* enforceable, at least
to the extent that where a charter exists (and I understand that the
uk* hierarchy *must* present a charter in order for the newsgroup to
exist in the first place) breaching it is in contravention of most
ISP's own terms and conditions.
>
> I think that you will find that the only actual rule relating to
> x-posts that is enforceable to any extent is the rule imposed by
> the
> cancellers/censors regarding BI>20, and even that is not accepted
> by some ISPs like Altopia, and is also subject to those who
> 'resurrect' such posts.
See above - again, it is dependent on the ISP. Your argument seems to
be that ISPs require their subscribers to conform to charters, where
such exist, and therefore picking the right ISP is the way to avoid
any enforceable rules which individual ngs set up.
> >> There's the problem. You are assuming total agreement with your
> >> assessment of what is relevant. The whole point of usenet is
> >> the freedom to decide for yourself. Hence kill files. Playing
> >> with the groups as is being done in these threads is stealing
> >> that right to choose.
> >
> >Since I left the crossposts *in*, I fail to see where I am
> >stealing anyone's right to choose, either by your definition or by
> >mine.
>
> Sorry, the *you* was a generalism, and not meant to mean you
> personally.
No problem.
> >I am
> >not assuming that any one individual will see this thread as
> >relevant, only that - since it now pertains to Usenet protocol in
> >general, rather than a specific query regarding teen witches - it
> >is appropriate that the other newsgroup users already on the
> >thread can access it.
>
> The point being that you made a decision as to what was appropriate
> and what might not be.
And in the course of that *personal decision, left all the
information available for all concerned to take or leave it as they
wish ... which seems to be your original bone of contention.
>
> >>
> >> Actually it is pretty normal over most of usenet to indicate
> >> where follow ups are set to in the body of a post.
> >
> >If 'please confine this to alt*, crossposts removed' constitutes
> >an indication that FU's are set elsewhere, then I fail to see what
> >your original complaint is.
>
> A general one about the usual removal without notice of x-posts in
> these groups.
I take your point that it may be bad manners to remove the crossposts
without specifically mentioning where the FU's are set. I have heard
that some systems do not have the equivalent of OE's Newsgroups box
which allows the poster to see instantly where the reply is going,
and I agree that some reference in the body of the post would be
helpful. As I said yesterday.
>
> >You began by saying that removing crossposts
> >was a unilateral decision which deprived posters of valuable
> >discussion, which I agreed was a valid point. I suggested that
> >indicating where follow-ups were set would be a reasonable
> >compromise. Now you assert that this is already common practice.
>
> Which it is, except where people are having a mini-war among
> themselves, or harassing a particular poster.
Harassment, surely, would imply some form of action. I fail to see
how removing irrelevant and crossposted threads from a group which
has stated it does not want them, where the majority of posters are
contributing to the same thread on other ngs as and when they please,
and where the crossposter has already been proved to be trolling, can
be 'harassment' by anyone's definition.
>
> >
.
> >
> >Perhaps you don't know about Google archives? Let me explain. If a
> >discussion is transferred to a group which you do not have
> >downloaded, there is a website which archives the majority of
> >posts (rather more than are carried by some erratic ISPs, in fact)
> >and it is possible not only to follow the discussion there, but
> >also to post replies. Subscribing to the group in question, and
> >downloading all the current content, is not necessary.
>
> The Google archives are a mess. The excellent service that was,
> when it was Deja News, has been turned into a difficult to follow,
> virtually unsearchable morass. Have they improved it in the last
> couple of
> months?
It's getting better, actually. Posting via Google is not perfect, but
they *are archiving, about 24 hours behind, mostly efficiently.
>
> In any case, to follow a thread on Google, a web based interface,
> is painstakingly slow, and horribly expensive for those who have to
> pay for their time online.
Download time is a different issue entirely. You know as well as I do
what options are open to UK posters, and it is no longer a matter of
pay-per-minute or nothing. If you are actually trying to defend the
rights of those who don't have the same level of online options as
the US and the UK, rather than supporting crossposting as an example
of free speech, then your argument is probably with the
socio-economic situation of countries where rapid Internet access is
not freely available. And that's a completely different can of worms.
>
> >>
> >
> >Well, it's a mistake often made by people who are new to Usenet. I
> >shouldn't worry about it too much, Fenris - it isn't hard to keep
> >up with discussions which have been shifted elsewhere, or to learn
> >to access them through Google. Once you've got the hang of that,
> >you can spend some time looking at the content of the posts and
> >working out why crossposts have been added or removed. That'll
> >give you a much better idea of the dynamics.
> >
> Nice try Jani, but I have more to do in life than wait for Google
> to move from post to post. Incidentally, I have a pretty fair idea
> of why x-posts are being removed on these groups, and I said
> before, it goes way back.
Bear in mind that many of the people who are removing the crossposts
were not here 'way back' and have formed their opinions based on
current evidence. You might care to look at what is being said now,
and in the very recent past, before you make assumptions that this is
some old quarrel being re-hashed.
Jani
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Jani
Hash: SHA1
Looking at the crossposts - alt.flame.talesin???
Does alt.config. know about this? ;-)
Jani
"Cursuswalker" <cursuswalker NO @ SPAM hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9ogr2u$4s$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
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Jani
Hash: SHA1
"Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:RkuAKyBl...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
*raises eyebrow* Fenris, I suspect you've kept me talking just to
goldbrick *g*
Jani
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Jani
Hash: SHA1
"Cursuswalker" <cursuswalker NO @ SPAM hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9ogr33$n20$4...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Nonono. "Room-mates", please. Who share the same posting ID, the same
computer, and disappear as fast as they ... roomed :)
Jani
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Talesin- Patriot and Witch
"Day Brown" <dayb...@cei.net> wrote in message
news:3BAAF1E6...@cei.net...
> Archaiser wrote:
> > I have no wish for the americans to come to our aid, I would just
> like them
> > to cease their interference in UK anti-terrorist actions and desist from
> > terrorist support. That's all.
> > Clear now ?
> weapons and bombs?
There may well be money flowing from the US to the IRA as we are a very open
country with a large Irish population. I am sure money flows from here to
Arab terrorists as well. I am sure money flows from GB to a lot of
terrorists groups too.
But what you stated is not fact. It is from the book "Patriot Games" by Tom
Clancy.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
Please! You are talking to a group of people who destroyed one of the
greatest sources of Pagan information on the internet because someone did
not put an "[AD]" tag on a post that was not an ad.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
"Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5dOq7.4630$cZ6.3...@news1.cableinet.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:64bKdDD3...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
>
> > X-posting is an accepted part of usenet where many groups have
> > overlapping content, and often there are groups whose content is
> > identical, and the x-posts are seen as a way of gaining the input
> > from those whose specialist knowledge may add to a discussion, and
> > prevent identical threads and multiple single posts, which is
> > happening in this discussion. When someone cuts the groups
> > unilaterally, people following a thread may never see the answers,
> > never get the chance to contribute.
>
> There is a difference between crossposting specialist knowledge to
> relevant groups, which I agree is perfectly acceptable, and
> eliminating trolls.
"Troll" being someone you diagree with but can not counter with facts.
> >
> > Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do
> > not wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
>
> Some Pagans would rather not have crossposting trolls in their
> newsgroup, since the trollposts then outweigh the valid exchange of
> information which you mention above. I have yet to see anyone demand
> the removal of crossposts when the topic concerned is interesting and
> informative. I have, however, seen many requests, from alt* and
> elsewhere, for crossposts to be removed when the material posted is
> irrelevant to the group. For example, I have left the follow-ups
> intact here, since the general point you make is relevant - in my
> opinion - to all the groups involved.
>
So why have people on UKRP been changing the follow-ups on posts concerning
Witchcraft, Paganism, and the current world crisis? It really PISSES ME OFF
the way you censored groups are so disingenous that you can not just admit
you exist for the purpose of allowing a specific cadre to control the flow
of information and from whom it is allowed to flow. Moreso, the way you act
so morally superior because of it.
Basically, anyone on UKRP who does not talk about chocolate, beer, or
needing a hug is a "troll." The first sentence of your FAQ says you are here
to discuss Paganism. I find you all guilty of violating the FAQ and order
you OFF the group.
> However, I do not see that it is 'insular and inward looking' for any
> unmoderated group to remove crossposts in follow-ups or employ
> individual killfiles in order to eliminate deliberate trolling and
> spamming, or simply to direct a discussion to a forum where it is
> more appropriate. On the blueyonder service ngs, which are set up for
> very specific and closely-defined purposes, it is customary to add
> 'FU's set to...' at the end of the post in which the other ngs are
> cut. Perhaps a similar practice - 'FU's set to ATW/ARW', for example
> - - would relieve your evident and understandable anxiety that posters
> are missing valid debate, ensure that they could still access and
> participate in the discussion, and at the same time allow individal
> groups to set their own signal-to-noise ratio.
Look, if it is relevant, I will see to it that it gets crossposted. If you
don't like it, go to a moderated group.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
> The Google archives are a mess. The excellent service that was, when it
> was Deja News, has been turned into a difficult to follow, virtually
> unsearchable morass. Have they improved it in the last couple of
> months?
>
> In any case, to follow a thread on Google, a web based interface, is
> painstakingly slow, and horribly expensive for those who have to pay for
> their time online.
Actually Google has become quite good for reading. They have added a frame
so you can see a graphic representation of the thread and select particular
posts which you then read in the other frame. Although you still can not
filter a thread for a particular date, it easy to pick out the newest posts.
Posting is another matter. You have to give a valid e-mail addy to get an
account and this addy appears on your posts with no option to munge it. So
you either get spam to you active addy, or you miss e-mail that has been
sent to a spam dump address. Worst of all, you only get five posts a day.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
Why should it be impingent on them, and their ISP's, to go to all of this
effort instead of you simply making the effort to delete/ignore the posts
you do not want to read? As Fenris Wolf wisely pointed out, the issue here
is not what you don't want to see but rather what you don't want *everyone
else* to see.
For example, you don't like what I say. Were this the only issue, you would
KF me or simply summon the fortitude to ignore me. However, you are afraid
others may hear what I say and, Gods forbid, might even agree with it. So
you use every means you can to limit my ability to speak freely. This is the
idea behind endlessly crowing about KF-ing someone instead of just doing it,
the "troll pit," and purposely diverting discussions to flames or drivel
about beer and chocolate. This is EXACTLY what happened when UKRP destroyed
the Pagan Files Archive, not your stupid nonsense about an [AD] tag.
Someone says something you don't agree with and you do your best to
discredit it, quell it, or take any other means to make sure others don't
hear the message based on your personal prejudices and while hiding behind
some moral superiority (you even justify it by saying you are "protecting
the newbies." You can try to whitewash it any way you wish; it is nothing
but censorship.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
"Wombat" <shell....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:bg0r7.1515$%a4.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
UseNet is a public medium. When you post here, you acknowledge that your
words can be archived, copied, crossposted, and can end up almost anywhere.
This is true even for the heavily censored groups like SRP. This is why the
posting of private e-mail is universally (except for UKRP) condemned on
UseNet; the message was meant to be private and now you have put it on the
evening news.
I will never understand why people will subscribe to what they know is a
wide-open, free, public medium and the first thing they want to do is start
making rules to control what is said and who says it. Use a fucking e-mail
list.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
<snip same boring Janistuff>
> Of course you're worth responding to: your attempts at disruption
> invariably encourage many responses from those who are quite happy to
> disseminate genuine information across Pagan Usenet in response to
> your trolling. Perhaps if you saw yourself as the grit which polishes
> the gemstones, you'd have a much clearer idea of your purpose in
> life?
>
> HTH
>
> Jani
Jokes on you, o' pool cleaning fan.
I DO see myself as the grit the polishes the gemstones. Now go ponder that
for a while.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
Touché!
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
> Ah.........do I spy an agenda?
No, that's a fly on the bottom of your beer glass. Have a few *more* pints
and it will become a nefarious American plot to disrupt the integrity of the
British Empire by assaulting UKRP with posts about freely available Pagan
information on an AMERICAN web site and WITHOUT the protection of an [AD]
tag.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
Oh look! Here's a match made in heaven. These two will be swapping bodily
fluids in no time.
Have a care CW. Carl stalks men as well as women. In fact, he threatened to
rape one on alt.acting
Jani
Hash: SHA1
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in
message news:iK4r7.360317$Jg.49...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:rTPq7.4910$cZ6.4...@news1.cableinet.net...
> <snip same boring Janistuff>
>
> > Of course you're worth responding to: your attempts at disruption
> > invariably encourage many responses from those who are quite
> > happy to disseminate genuine information across Pagan Usenet in
> > response to your trolling. Perhaps if you saw yourself as the
> > grit which polishes the gemstones, you'd have a much clearer idea
> > of your purpose in life?
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Jani
>
> Jokes on you, o' pool cleaning fan.
> I DO see myself as the grit the polishes the gemstones. Now go
> ponder that for a while.
Oh, good, for once we're in agreement. I don't need to ponder it,
since your personal agenda has been evident for years, even when you
allowed it to slip due to - shall we say, personal and emotional
difficulties?
To be the grit in the tumbler requires far more integrity, commitment
and honesty then is possible for most, who are (if we continue the
analogy) shaped and polished stones, at the mercy of both the
tumbling machine and the artificially introduced grit. To be a
polished gemstone is relatively easy, and requires only acceptance.
To be grit requires much, much more - the understanding that neither
beauty nor symmetry will be yours, that the tumbler will always
control you, that your only role is to contribute to the beauty and
strength of others.
That may be why the grit always stays at the bottom of the tumbler,
whilst the gemstones go on to ... greater things.
Just a thought, David. Only an analogy, of course.
Jani
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Jani
Hash: SHA1
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in
message news:gK4r7.360314$Jg.49...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> UseNet is a public medium. When you post here, you acknowledge that
> your words can be archived, copied, crossposted, and can end up
> almost anywhere.
Yep. Many people do not understand that their words are archived, and
someone will, days or months later, point out that they have been
contradicting themselves, and destroying their own credibility.
> This is true even for the heavily censored groups like SRP. This is
> why the posting of private e-mail is universally (except for UKRP)
> condemned on UseNet; the message was meant to be private and now
> you have put it on the evening news.
The posting of private mail is not universally condemned on ARW (I
refer you to Google). The posting of private mail *is*, however,
condemned on UKRP (I refer you to Google).
> I will never understand why people will subscribe to what they know
> is a wide-open, free, public medium and the first thing they want
> to do is start making rules to control what is said and who says
> it. Use a fucking e-mail list.
David, you *tried* using a list and they threw you off that, too. Do
grow up. This is not a censorship issue, and you know that quite
well.
Jani
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Jani
Hash: SHA1
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in
message news:9K4r7.360300$Jg.49...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:5dOq7.4630$cZ6.3...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > "Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:64bKdDD3...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> >
> > > X-posting is an accepted part of usenet where many groups have
> > > overlapping content, and often there are groups whose content
> > > is identical, and the x-posts are seen as a way of gaining the
> > > input from those whose specialist knowledge may add to a
> > > discussion, and prevent identical threads and multiple single
> > > posts, which is happening in this discussion. When someone
> > > cuts the groups unilaterally, people following a thread may
> > > never see the answers, never get the chance to contribute.
> >
> > There is a difference between crossposting specialist knowledge
> > to relevant groups, which I agree is perfectly acceptable, and
> > eliminating trolls.
>
> "Troll" being someone you diagree with but can not counter with
> facts.
Leave *that* one out, David, you have had enough facts posted to
suffocate you. Whatever reasonable points you had to make about the
way Usenet is set up have been totally lost in your insistence on
fighting a completely unwinnable battle against Drak.net's T &C.
>
> > >
> > > Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they
> > > do not wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
> >
> > Some Pagans would rather not have crossposting trolls in their
> > newsgroup, since the trollposts then outweigh the valid exchange
> > of information which you mention above. I have yet to see anyone
> > demand the removal of crossposts when the topic concerned is
> > interesting and informative. I have, however, seen many requests,
> > from alt* and elsewhere, for crossposts to be removed when the
> > material posted is irrelevant to the group. For example, I have
> > left the follow-ups intact here, since the general point you make
> > is relevant - in my opinion - to all the groups involved.
> >
>
> So why have people on UKRP been changing the follow-ups on posts
> concerning Witchcraft, Paganism, and the current world crisis? It
> really PISSES ME OFF the way you censored groups are so disingenous
> that you can not just admit you exist for the purpose of allowing a
> specific cadre to control the flow of information and from whom it
> is allowed to flow. Moreso, the way you act so morally superior
> because of it.
UKRP has been removing the alt* crossposts because those who choose
to are replying to you on alt*. Most of the people on UKRP also sub
to alt*, and I have already discussed with Fenris the problems
arising from Brit ISPs who do not carry specific hierarchies.
We're 'morally superior' from your point of view, solely because
we've listened to your arguments and rejected them as specious, and
now we would rather you took your tantrums somewhere else. When you
actually get to a point in your life where you are self-sufficient,
and are confident enough to interact with a group composed of
independent individuals, you will be welcome in UKRP, and probably
elsewhere as well.
> Basically, anyone on UKRP who does not talk about chocolate, beer,
> or needing a hug is a "troll." The first sentence of your FAQ says
> you are here to discuss Paganism. I find you all guilty of
> violating the FAQ and order you OFF the group.
ROFL! Yessir, Judge Judy!
>
> Look, if it is relevant, I will see to it that it gets crossposted.
> If you don't like it, go to a moderated group.
Go look at Fenris' posts. Who are *you* to decide? ;) And you can
crosspost as much as you wish, David, people will look at what you
post and make their own minds up. If you genuinely want to be 'the
grit', then that is quite a responsible position to take. It doesn't
allow for tantrums.
Jani
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Jani
Hash: SHA1
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in
message news:9K4r7.360299$Jg.49...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
Do you want us to (yet again) post the URL of the mirror site that
Terry himself set up? Sheesh, David, let this one lie. PFA is still
there, and I think it's fairly obvious to everyone that you jumped on
the wrong bandwagon. Cut your losses.
Jani
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Archaiser
> There may well be money flowing from the US to the IRA as we are a very
> open country with a large Irish population. I am sure money flows from
> here to Arab terrorists as well. I am sure money flows from GB to a lot of
> terrorists groups too.
> But what you stated is not fact. It is from the book "Patriot Games" by
> Tom Clancy.
>
Yes Davey it did appear there.
I had that information some years before that book was published however.
I can promise you that if you live for another 35 years you can read it as
well.
--
Your Friend
Archie
By Thy Manners, Let thou be judged.
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
So when I *choose* not to post to a particular newsgroup, that is
censorship?
--
"Without Paganism the world would be empty and miserable"
Thabit ibn Qurra, Muslim philosopher (835-901CE)
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
>
> "Cursuswalker" <cursuswalker NO @ SPAM hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9ogtcs$8nj$3...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> > Ah.........do I spy an agenda?
>
> No, that's a fly on the bottom of your beer glass. Have a few *more* pints
> and it will become a nefarious American plot to disrupt the integrity of
the
> British Empire by assaulting UKRP with posts about freely available Pagan
> information on an AMERICAN web site and WITHOUT the protection of an [AD]
> tag.
Or a nefarious British plot to undermine the US constitution by assaulting
Free Pagan Abusenet with censorious information on the differences between
various hierarchies.
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
>
> "Jani"
> >
> > There is a difference between crossposting specialist knowledge to
> > relevant groups, which I agree is perfectly acceptable, and
> > eliminating trolls.
>
> "Troll" being someone you diagree with but can not counter with facts.
Such as Chris being American, not British?
LOL!!
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
>
> Please! You are talking to a group of people who destroyed one of the
> greatest sources of Pagan information on the internet because someone did
> not put an "[AD]" tag on a post that was not an ad.
http://www.outofthecauldron.co.uk/prc/prc.htm
HTH
HAND
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
>
> Oh look! Here's a match made in heaven. These two will be swapping bodily
> fluids in no time.
> Have a care CW. Carl stalks men as well as women. In fact, he threatened
to
> rape one on alt.acting
(This shall be sport)
Go on then Davey Trollesion.
Substantiate.
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
Davey Trollesion<the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
news:gK4r7.360314$Jg.49...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> UseNet is a public medium. When you post here, you acknowledge that your
> words can be archived, copied, crossposted, and can end up almost
anywhere.
> This is true even for the heavily censored groups like SRP. This is why
the
> posting of private e-mail is universally (except for UKRP) condemned on
> UseNet; the message was meant to be private and now you have put it on the
> evening news.
So you ARE for censorship??
The complete free exchange of information is surely every Internet users
inalienable right?
Why do you wish to restrict my access to information just because it was not
initially posted to me?
Free Pagan Usenet?
Yeah, right.
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
Fenris Wolf
<cursuswalker@NO.?> writes
>
>"Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:RkuAKyBl...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <9ogtcs$8nj$3...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Cursuswalker
>> <cursuswalker@NO.?> writes
>> >> There are censored (moderated!) groups for those afraid of the rough
>and
>> >> tumble of usenet posting. Otherwise there are general guidelines and
>> >> its up to you what you read or leave.
>> >
>> >Ah.........do I spy an agenda?
>>
>> Hopefully one which all on these groups will share - that of freedom of
>> speech and opposition to censorship on the wider usenet. <g>
>
>So when I *choose* not to post to a particular newsgroup, that is
>censorship?
>
No. It is censorship when you divert posts to a particular group
without bothering to tell the people who were following the discussion.
>--
>"Without Paganism the world would be empty and miserable"
>Thabit ibn Qurra, Muslim philosopher (835-901CE)
>
>CURSUSWALKER
>...
>/|\
>
>
Your sig is broken.
--
Fenris Wolf
Fenris Wolf
<cursuswalker@NO.?> writes
Now perhaps you would like to tell us the reason why so many sites keep
mirrors updated? Did you think it was due to excessive traffic? Any
other reason?
Did you know that different ISPs do not all allow access to the same
sites? That when one site is lost, whole swathes of people can no
longer access the material?
Not only that, but the search engines generally lag well behind site
changes.
Still, who cares, so long as the petty imposition of rules has not been
breached!
--
Fenris Wolf
Lush
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
Jani <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Zx4r7.10011$cZ6.1...@news1.cableinet.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Looking at the crossposts - alt.flame.talesin???
>
> Does alt.config. know about this? ;-)
>
> Jani
>
>
>
> "Cursuswalker" <cursuswalker NO @ SPAM hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9ogr2u$4s$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <witc...@bigfoot.XXcom> wrote in
> > message news:tpvq7.351296$Jg.47...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> > >
> > > "Chris Cottrell" <MTN-...@prodigy.net> ALSO wrote in message
> > > news:O1gq7.42012$sq3.200...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> > > > Pardon my piggybacking at this point, gentlemen;
> > <snip>
> > > > The remainder of his post does not in my estimation deserve to
> > > > be dignified with any response; response only serves to
> > > > encourage trollish behavior in people like him.
> > >
> > > Of course. You can not counter my facts and reasoning so you fall
> > > upon the lamest and oldest UseNet gambit of all: you mumble a few
> > > lame insults,
> > call
> > > me a "troll," and say "I am not worth responding to." Game, set,
> > > match, Talesin, again.
> > > Too bad you didn't have the guts to defend yourself but, then
> > > again, that was my whole point.
> >
> > You dissembling fuckwit.
> >
> > Let's see what you chose to snip from that last post shall we?
> >
> > > "Chris Cottrell" <MTN-...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> > > news:O1gq7.42012$sq3.200...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> > >
> > > I will ignore the vast majority of The TrollTalespin's words as
> > > undeserving of response, but I will address one point which he
> > > stated as fact and got very wrong. He used this point as a way
> > > of
> > > invalidating my response and dismissing my views, attempting to
> > > assassinate my character and belittle my viewpoint on the basis
> > > of nationality. He made assumptions about me, my experiences and
> > > my views on the basis of that nationality, a point that would
> > > have been very easy to research, a point about which I have been
> > > quite open and forthcoming and voceroforous.
> > >
> > > I am an American citizen, born and raised. Other than one brief
> > > day spent in Canada, I have never been outside the contiguous
> > > USA. I went to school here, live a stone's throw from
> > > Washington, DC, have a teenaged daughter and a grown son who live
> > > here. I have immediate and extended family in the US military,
> > > including my deceased father. I have voted here, worked for
> > > reform here, volunteered in various capacities in order to make
> > > this land and this world a better place. I am on record writing
> > > glowing words in praise of my birthplace in the Virginia
> > > Highlands and of my wish to return there permanently, rather than
> > > just the several times a year I return to visit family.
> >
> > Talesin: the one "man" Trolling textbook.
> >
> > Chris is American.
> >
> > You fucked up
> >
> > And *THEM'S* the facts
> >
> > LOL!!!
> >
> > --
> > CURSUSWALKER
> > ...
> > /|\
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
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>
>
>
Lush
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
Lush
I do know that US support in the UN allows the Isralis to get away with
genocide. It's a pity there isn't a large number of wealthy Iraqi immigrants
in the US, the gulf war need never have occured.
Lush
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
Talesin- Patriot and Witch <witc...@bigfoot.XXcom> wrote in message
news:4K4r7.360291$Jg.49...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
Lush
are you to judge that their decisions are 'sinsular' or otherwise.
Lush
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
Fenris Wolf <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:64bKdDD3...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> In article <88mlqto41bu80qjrr...@4ax.com>, Morgana Le Fay
> <mor...@broomstick.co.uk> writes
> >>Quit fucking with the follow-ups. I always notice and fix them.
> >
> >I have one question. I am not posting this to get into a fight with you,
or
> >to be rude/nasty, but if you can answer for my own curiosity, it would be
> >appreciated.
> >
> >What do you get out of this?
>
> I have a question too. (Note that I have reinstated the groups that
> have been cut.)
>
> In normal usenet etiquette, it is considered common courtesy to state
> you are altering the follow up line. Here, in the Pagan groups, it
> seems to be used as a weapon to undermine the unsuspecting. Why?
>
> X-posting is an accepted part of usenet where many groups have
> overlapping content, and often there are groups whose content is
> identical, and the x-posts are seen as a way of gaining the input from
> those whose specialist knowledge may add to a discussion, and prevent
> identical threads and multiple single posts, which is happening in this
> discussion. When someone cuts the groups unilaterally, people following
> a thread may never see the answers, never get the chance to contribute.
>
> Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do not
> wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
>
> --
> Fenris Wolf
Lush
to post, and in reply to whom and what to say and what to not say are all
unilateral. Who cares?
Lush
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
Fenris Wolf <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Oqdn5yDu...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> In article <5dOq7.4630$cZ6.3...@news1.cableinet.net>, Jani
> <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >"Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:64bKdDD3...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> >
> >> X-posting is an accepted part of usenet where many groups have
> >> overlapping content, and often there are groups whose content is
> >> identical, and the x-posts are seen as a way of gaining the input
> >> from those whose specialist knowledge may add to a discussion, and
> >> prevent identical threads and multiple single posts, which is
> >> happening in this discussion. When someone cuts the groups
> >> unilaterally, people following a thread may never see the answers,
> >> never get the chance to contribute.
> >
> >There is a difference between crossposting specialist knowledge to
> >relevant groups, which I agree is perfectly acceptable, and
> >eliminating trolls.
>
> You eliminate trolls by not replying to them. And who is going to
> decide on the definition of troll in a particular context? By taking a
> decision that affects other posters you are limiting their freedom to
> read and reply to what they will. If you do not like a particular
> poster then use a kill file. If you do not wish to follow a particular
> thread then kill it. But by taking unilateral action you are imposing
> your views on everyone.
>
> >>
> >> Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do
> >> not wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
> >
> >Some Pagans would rather not have crossposting trolls in their
> >newsgroup, since the trollposts then outweigh the valid exchange of
> >information which you mention above.
>
> There are censored (moderated!) groups for those afraid of the rough and
> tumble of usenet posting. Otherwise there are general guidelines and
> its up to you what you read or leave.
>
> >I have yet to see anyone demand
> >the removal of crossposts when the topic concerned is interesting and
> >informative. I have, however, seen many requests, from alt* and
> >elsewhere, for crossposts to be removed when the material posted is
> >irrelevant to the group. For example, I have left the follow-ups
> >intact here, since the general point you make is relevant - in my
> >opinion - to all the groups involved.
>
> There's the problem. You are assuming total agreement with your
> assessment of what is relevant. The whole point of usenet is the
> freedom to decide for yourself. Hence kill files. Playing with the
> groups as is being done in these threads is stealing that right to
> choose.
>
> >
> >However, I do not see that it is 'insular and inward looking' for any
> >unmoderated group to remove crossposts in follow-ups or employ
> >individual killfiles in order to eliminate deliberate trolling and
> >spamming, or simply to direct a discussion to a forum where it is
> >more appropriate. On the blueyonder service ngs, which are set up for
> >very specific and closely-defined purposes, it is customary to add
> >'FU's set to...' at the end of the post in which the other ngs are
> >cut. Perhaps a similar practice - 'FU's set to ATW/ARW', for example
> >- would relieve your evident and understandable anxiety that posters
> >are missing valid debate, ensure that they could still access and
> >participate in the discussion, and at the same time allow individal
> >groups to set their own signal-to-noise ratio.
>
> Actually it is pretty normal over most of usenet to indicate where
> follow ups are set to in the body of a post. It allows those who do not
> agree with the last posters decision to alter it, and for others to
> subscribe to entire groups! if they wish to see perhaps one single post
> which formed the answer! This is fine if the group where the discussion
> is being diverted to is a small one, but what if it is a busy group with
> many posts every hour? You are condemning people to a choice between
> downloading huge amounts of unwanted material or missing the rest of a
> discussion they may have been following avidly.
>
> If there is no interest in a thread it will die when no-one answers the
> postings in it. This method of culling groups from the headers appears
> to be nothing more than a crude attempt at censorship, a means of
> preventing those with whom the censors disagree from presenting
> alternative views to the members of the groups they seek to 'protect'
> from that viewpoint.
>
> --
> Fenris Wolf
>
> RSPCA-Animadversion
>
> http://www.webtribe.net/a/animadversion/animadversion.htm
>
> Child Rescue
>
> http://www.childrescue.org.uk
Lush
Personally I have been able to use the advanced search at google to find
precisely the posts and threads that I have wanted with a minimum of time
and fuss. Indeed, the same amount of time taken using the 'advanced find'
function in Outlook.
Lush
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
Fenris Wolf <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:XkFB6kBJ...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> In article <yyQq7.4997$cZ6.4...@news1.cableinet.net>, Jani
> >If it were the case that all posters only subscribe to one newsgroup
> >each, then I would agree that 'unilateral action' by a single poster
> >kills the entire thread. But that is not the case, is it?
>
> Where did I say that unilateral action by a single poster kills an
> entire thread?
>
> >If you know
> >of posters who are complaining that they are unable to sub to more
> >than one newsgroup, and cannot follow up xposts on another hierarchy,
> >then I think it would be up to those people to ask their ISPs to
> >carry the relevant groups.
> >
> Some ISPs refuse, as does Demon when asked to carry free.uk.* groups.
> The argument, however, is that most people subscribe to a few
> newsgroups, and follow threads of interest in them. It is an irritation
> to find discussions with many of the posts marked 'unavailable' even
> when a newsreader is asked to fetch them. Then you have to go back to
> the previous post and find out which newsgroups might have been left in
> the subject line and subscribe in the hope that you will find what you
> are looking for?
>
> >
> >> >> Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do
> >> >> not wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
> >> >
> >> >Some Pagans would rather not have crossposting trolls in their
> >> >newsgroup, since the trollposts then outweigh the valid exchange
> >> >of information which you mention above.
> >>
> >> There are censored (moderated!) groups for those afraid of the
> >> rough and tumble of usenet posting. Otherwise there are general
> >> guidelines and its up to you what you read or leave.
> >
> >There are also FAQs and charters on some of unmoderated groups, which
> >include rules regarding crossposting.
>
> Those rules are unenforceable. If you treat them as anything other than
> guidelines you will end up with high blood pressure! <g>
>
> >UKRP, for instance, allows a
> >certain number of relevant crossposts, which was designed to allow
> >the free flow of relevant information which you referred to
> >previously. However, since the group is not moderated, and therefore
> >part of the 'rough and tumble of Usenet posting', it is up to
> >individuals to killfile, to remove crossposts, and indeed to add
> >crossposts up to the number within the charter.
>
> I think that you will find that the only actual rule relating to x-posts
> that is enforceable to any extent is the rule imposed by the
> cancellers/censors regarding BI>20, and even that is not accepted by
> some ISPs like Altopia, and is also subject to those who 'resurrect'
> such posts.
>
> >>
> >> >I have yet to see anyone demand
> >> >the removal of crossposts when the topic concerned is interesting
> >> >and informative. I have, however, seen many requests, from alt*
> >> >and
> >> >elsewhere, for crossposts to be removed when the material posted
> >> >is irrelevant to the group. For example, I have left the
> >> >follow-ups intact here, since the general point you make is
> >> >relevant - in my opinion - to all the groups involved.
> >>
> >> There's the problem. You are assuming total agreement with your
> >> assessment of what is relevant. The whole point of usenet is the
> >> freedom to decide for yourself. Hence kill files. Playing with
> >> the groups as is being done in these threads is stealing that right
> >> to choose.
> >
> >Since I left the crossposts *in*, I fail to see where I am stealing
> >anyone's right to choose, either by your definition or by mine.
>
> Sorry, the *you* was a generalism, and not meant to mean you personally.
>
> >I am
> >not assuming that any one individual will see this thread as
> >relevant, only that - since it now pertains to Usenet protocol in
> >general, rather than a specific query regarding teen witches - it is
> >appropriate that the other newsgroup users already on the thread can
> >access it.
>
> The point being that you made a decision as to what was appropriate and
> what might not be.
>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >However, I do not see that it is 'insular and inward looking' for
> >> >any unmoderated group to remove crossposts in follow-ups or employ
> >> >individual killfiles in order to eliminate deliberate trolling and
> >> >spamming, or simply to direct a discussion to a forum where it is
> >> >more appropriate. On the blueyonder service ngs, which are set up
> >> >for very specific and closely-defined purposes, it is customary to
> >> >add 'FU's set to...' at the end of the post in which the other ngs
> >> >are cut. Perhaps a similar practice - 'FU's set to ATW/ARW', for
> >> >example - would relieve your evident and understandable anxiety
> >> >that posters are missing valid debate, ensure that they could
> >> >still access and participate in the discussion, and at the same
> >> >time allow individal groups to set their own signal-to-noise
> >> >ratio.
> >>
> >> Actually it is pretty normal over most of usenet to indicate where
> >> follow ups are set to in the body of a post.
> >
> >If 'please confine this to alt*, crossposts removed' constitutes an
> >indication that FU's are set elsewhere, then I fail to see what your
> >original complaint is.
>
> A general one about the usual removal without notice of x-posts in these
> groups.
>
> >You began by saying that removing crossposts
> >was a unilateral decision which deprived posters of valuable
> >discussion, which I agreed was a valid point. I suggested that
> >indicating where follow-ups were set would be a reasonable
> >compromise. Now you assert that this is already common practice.
>
> Which it is, except where people are having a mini-war among themselves,
> or harassing a particular poster.
>
> >
> >It allows those who do not
> >> agree with the last posters decision to alter it, and for others to
> >> subscribe to entire groups! if they wish to see perhaps one single
> >> post which formed the answer! This is fine if the group where the
> >> discussion is being diverted to is a small one, but what if it is a
> >> busy group with many posts every hour? You are condemning people
> >> to a choice between downloading huge amounts of unwanted material
> >> or missing the rest of a discussion they may have been following
> >> avidly.
> >
> >Perhaps you don't know about Google archives? Let me explain. If a
> >discussion is transferred to a group which you do not have
> >downloaded, there is a website which archives the majority of posts
> >(rather more than are carried by some erratic ISPs, in fact) and it
> >is possible not only to follow the discussion there, but also to post
> >replies. Subscribing to the group in question, and downloading all
> >the current content, is not necessary.
>
> The Google archives are a mess. The excellent service that was, when it
> was Deja News, has been turned into a difficult to follow, virtually
> unsearchable morass. Have they improved it in the last couple of
> months?
>
> In any case, to follow a thread on Google, a web based interface, is
> painstakingly slow, and horribly expensive for those who have to pay for
> their time online.
>
> >>
> >> If there is no interest in a thread it will die when no-one answers
> >> the postings in it. This method of culling groups from the headers
> >> appears to be nothing more than a crude attempt at censorship, a
> >> means of
> >> preventing those with whom the censors disagree from presenting
> >> alternative views to the members of the groups they seek to
> >> 'protect' from that viewpoint.
> >
> >Well, it's a mistake often made by people who are new to Usenet. I
> >shouldn't worry about it too much, Fenris - it isn't hard to keep up
> >with discussions which have been shifted elsewhere, or to learn to
> >access them through Google. Once you've got the hang of that, you can
> >spend some time looking at the content of the posts and working out
> >why crossposts have been added or removed. That'll give you a much
> >better idea of the dynamics.
> >
> Nice try Jani, but I have more to do in life than wait for Google to
> move from post to post. Incidentally, I have a pretty fair idea of why
> x-posts are being removed on these groups, and I said before, it goes
> way back.
>
> --
> Fenris Wolf
Lush
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
news:gK4r7.360314$Jg.49...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
> Cursuswalker
> >"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch"
> >>
> >> greatest sources of Pagan information on the internet because someone
did
> >> not put an "[AD]" tag on a post that was not an ad.
> >
> >http://www.outofthecauldron.co.uk/prc/prc.htm
> >
> >HTH
> >
> >HAND
> >
> >LOL!!
>
> Now perhaps you would like to tell us the reason why so many sites keep
> mirrors updated? Did you think it was due to excessive traffic? Any
> other reason?
You'll have to give me a clue on this one.
> Did you know that different ISPs do not all allow access to the same
> sites? That when one site is lost, whole swathes of people can no
> longer access the material?
Petty.
You might just as well point out that many people *will* now be able to
access the site due to the change of site.
That one cuts both ways.
> Not only that, but the search engines generally lag well behind site
> changes.
That's down to whoever runs the site to tell them.
> Still, who cares, so long as the petty imposition of rules has not been
> breached!
Petty to those who don't value what they prevent.
Now then, are these the best points you can come up with in the light of the
Pagan Files continued presence on the web?
Pretty weak...
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"Lush" <lush...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:cXir7.82927$bY5.4...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> what en earth is a 'dissemblimg fuckwit'?
I'm very glad you asked me that question.
A "dissembling fuckwit" is a fuckwit (One who's wits are completely
fucked)............who manipulates the truth and deliberately misleads.
Hence a dissembling fuckwit will use any and all wits still available to
him/her/it in strenuous efforts to lie.
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
> Cursuswalker
> >
> >So when I *choose* not to post to a particular newsgroup, that is
> >censorship?
>
> No. It is censorship when you divert posts to a particular group
> without bothering to tell the people who were following the discussion.
Do you mean completely changing the groups to which the post is sent or just
adding newsgroups to the send line?
If the former, then I'm glad to say I don't do that.
If the latter then talk to Davey boy, as that is *his* favourite trick at
the moment.
> Your sig is broken.
In what way?
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
> Nonono. "Room-mates", please. Who share the same posting ID, the same
> computer, and disappear as fast as they ... roomed :)
Unfortunately, they were both pretty disgusted with what they saw on UseNet
and have no desire to return. Which is too bad, you could have learned a lot
from them. They are awesome Witches.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
This, as well as the fact that not all of the files are here and that not
everyone who used the files is on UseNet, thus they have no idea another
site exists.
Plus no one has been able to sufficiently explain how they can say this site
is "exactly the same" on the one hand, yet they have posted it dozens of
times WITHOUT the use of an [ad] tag- they very thing they destroyed the PFA
over.
The snots on UKRP just did not like the idea of someone- especially a Yank-
invading their "territory." Their insistence on hiding their cirme behind a
paper-thin and poorly thought out "argument" is laughable.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
> The posting of private mail is not universally condemned on ARW (I
> refer you to Google). The posting of private mail *is*, however,
> condemned on UKRP (I refer you to Google).
And I refer you to the fact that Carl Inglis did indeed post a private
e-mail from Terry (the one where he threatened to report Carl's harassment).
Game, set, match, Talesin, again
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> > <snip same boring Janistuff>
> >
> > > Of course you're worth responding to: your attempts at disruption
> > > invariably encourage many responses from those who are quite
> > > happy to disseminate genuine information across Pagan Usenet in
> > > response to your trolling. Perhaps if you saw yourself as the
> > > grit which polishes the gemstones, you'd have a much clearer idea
> > > of your purpose in life?
> > >
> > > HTH
> > >
> > > Jani
> >
> > Jokes on you, o' pool cleaning fan.
> > I DO see myself as the grit the polishes the gemstones. Now go
> > ponder that for a while.
>
> Oh, good, for once we're in agreement. I don't need to ponder it,
> since your personal agenda has been evident for years, even when you
> allowed it to slip due to - shall we say, personal and emotional
> difficulties?
You can say whatever you wish. Of course, your words will just fall
lifelessly among all of the other lies that have been told by those who can
only counter iron-clad intellect with school-yard taunts.
>
> To be the grit in the tumbler requires far more integrity, commitment
> and honesty then is possible for most, who are (if we continue the
> analogy) shaped and polished stones, at the mercy of both the
> tumbling machine and the artificially introduced grit. To be a
> polished gemstone is relatively easy, and requires only acceptance.
This part you got exactly.
> To be grit requires much, much more - the understanding that neither
> beauty nor symmetry will be yours, that the tumbler will always
> control you, that your only role is to contribute to the beauty and
> strength of others.
The tumbler is, of course, the universe
This part is wrong. You have missed one part of the essential nature of
grit: grit is stronger that the stones and changes them forever.
>
> That may be why the grit always stays at the bottom of the tumbler,
> whilst the gemstones go on to ... greater things.
Greater things? Hardly. Whilst the grit goes on interacting with the
Universe, living an active life, and creating beauty out of mundanity, the
gemstone goes to an empty, motionless life where it is merely "looked at."
>
> Just a thought, David.
Talesin
> Only an analogy, of course.
And a very apt one, as it turns out.
It is also very telling that you only value appearances.
Jani
Hash: SHA1
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in
message news:y4ur7.352758$GN.50...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:rt6r7.10952$cZ6.1...@news1.cableinet.net...
>
> > The posting of private mail is not universally condemned on ARW
> > (I refer you to Google). The posting of private mail *is*,
> > however, condemned on UKRP (I refer you to Google).
>
> And I refer you to the fact that Carl Inglis did indeed post a
> private e-mail from Terry (the one where he threatened to report
> Carl's harassment).
That would be the one in which Carl stated that he had attempted to
email Terry privately regarding his breach of charter, to two of
Terry's email addresses, I believe, and received a response accusing
him of 'harassment' and no acknowledgment that Terry would
acknowledge the charter. Breaching charter and refusing to answer
email on the matter leaves the maintainer of the charter very little
option except to make the correspondence public, since it is
something which affects the protocols of the entire group. Can you
find any other instances of private mail posted to UKRP? If so, I
would be interested to hear about it.
>
> Game, set, match, Talesin, again
Not quite. Although your effort is noted.
Jani
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Jani
Hash: SHA1
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in
message news:A4ur7.352762$GN.50...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:QM5r7.10590$cZ6.1...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > To be grit requires much, much more - the understanding that
> > neither beauty nor symmetry will be yours, that the tumbler will
> > always control you, that your only role is to contribute to the
> > beauty and strength of others.
>
> The tumbler is, of course, the universe
> This part is wrong. You have missed one part of the essential
> nature of grit: grit is stronger that the stones and changes them
> forever.
No, the grit is not innately stronger. It is useless, as a polishing
medium, without the assistance of the tumbler's mechanism. Place a
piece of grit besides a raw amethyst, and you'll be waiting a long
time for your jewellery.
>
>
> >
> > That may be why the grit always stays at the bottom of the
> > tumbler, whilst the gemstones go on to ... greater things.
>
> Greater things? Hardly. Whilst the grit goes on interacting with
> the Universe, living an active life, and creating beauty out of
> mundanity, the gemstone goes to an empty, motionless life where it
> is merely "looked at."
The gemstone has lost none of its strength, it has added another
dimension - that of perceived physical beauty - to what was already
there. The grit remains grey, functional, and driven only by the
stops and starts of the external mechanism on which it is dependent.
> > Only an analogy, of course.
>
> And a very apt one, as it turns out.
> It is also very telling that you only value appearances.
Not at all. Since you read at least some of my posts, it must be
fairly evident that categorising by physical appearance alone is not
something which I have ever done, or will do. Although that raises an
interesting point, if you care to return briefly to the original
analogy - since the gemstone has lost nothing of its original
qualities by revealing the visual beauty contained within the raw
stone, are you implying that the perfection which we all strive to
achieve should *not* include improving the physical form, to the best
of our respective abilities?
Jani
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Jani
Hash: SHA1
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in
message news:v4ur7.352745$GN.50...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Zx4r7.10013$cZ6.1...@news1.cableinet.net...
>
> > Nonono. "Room-mates", please. Who share the same posting ID, the
> > same computer, and disappear as fast as they ... roomed :)
>
> Unfortunately, they were both pretty disgusted with what they saw
> on UseNet and have no desire to return. Which is too bad, you could
> have learned a lot from them. They are awesome Witches.
*smile*. You will do better when you learn to learn, David. You do
have some potential, despite what some of the others think about you.
Jani
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Richard Ballard
>"Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:5dOq7.4630$cZ6.3...@news1.cableinet.net...
<snip>
>>There is a difference between crossposting specialist knowledge
>>to relevant groups, which I agree is perfectly acceptable, and
>>eliminating trolls.
>
>"Troll" being someone you diagree with but can not counter with
>facts.
Some people view anyone who disagrees with them as trolls.
My opinions.
Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging, and security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at www.amazon.com
Last book review: "The Immortals" by Andrew Neiderman
Lush
hehe
And does 'alt.flame.talesin' really exist?
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
Cursuswalker <cursuswalker NO @ SPAM hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9oln6m$i78$2...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Lush
to killfile you. I have killfiled you 3 times since I first came to usenet
but somehow you seem to change your posting address as often as you change
your clothes.
Lush
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
news:fK4r7.360312$Jg.49...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:yyQq7.4997$cZ6.4...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > "Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:Oqdn5yDu...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> > > In article <5dOq7.4630$cZ6.3...@news1.cableinet.net>, Jani
> > > <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> > > >"Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > >news:64bKdDD3...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> > > >
> > > >> X-posting is an accepted part of usenet where many groups have
> > > >> overlapping content, and often there are groups whose content is
> > > >> identical, and the x-posts are seen as a way of gaining the
> > > >> input from those whose specialist knowledge may add to a
> > > >> discussion, and prevent identical threads and multiple single
> > > >> posts, which is happening in this discussion. When someone cuts
> > > >> the groups
> > > >> unilaterally, people following a thread may never see the
> > > >> answers, never get the chance to contribute.
> > > >
> > > >There is a difference between crossposting specialist knowledge to
> > > >relevant groups, which I agree is perfectly acceptable, and
> > > >eliminating trolls.
> > >
> > > You eliminate trolls by not replying to them. And who is going to
> > > decide on the definition of troll in a particular context? By
> > > taking a decision that affects other posters you are limiting their
> > > freedom to read and reply to what they will. If you do not like a
> > > particular poster then use a kill file. If you do not wish to
> > > follow a particular thread then kill it. But by taking unilateral
> > > action you are imposing your views on everyone.
> >
> > If it were the case that all posters only subscribe to one newsgroup
> > each, then I would agree that 'unilateral action' by a single poster
> > kills the entire thread. But that is not the case, is it? If you know
> > of posters who are complaining that they are unable to sub to more
> > than one newsgroup, and cannot follow up xposts on another hierarchy,
> > then I think it would be up to those people to ask their ISPs to
> > carry the relevant groups.
> >
> > > >> Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do
> > > >> not wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
> > > >
> > > >Some Pagans would rather not have crossposting trolls in their
> > > >newsgroup, since the trollposts then outweigh the valid exchange
> > > >of information which you mention above.
> > >
> > > There are censored (moderated!) groups for those afraid of the
> > > rough and tumble of usenet posting. Otherwise there are general
> > > guidelines and its up to you what you read or leave.
> >
> > There are also FAQs and charters on some of unmoderated groups, which
> > include rules regarding crossposting. UKRP, for instance, allows a
> > certain number of relevant crossposts, which was designed to allow
> > the free flow of relevant information which you referred to
> > previously. However, since the group is not moderated, and therefore
> > part of the 'rough and tumble of Usenet posting', it is up to
> > individuals to killfile, to remove crossposts, and indeed to add
> > crossposts up to the number within the charter.
> > >
> > > >I have yet to see anyone demand
> > > >the removal of crossposts when the topic concerned is interesting
> > > >and informative. I have, however, seen many requests, from alt*
> > > >and
> > > >elsewhere, for crossposts to be removed when the material posted
> > > >is irrelevant to the group. For example, I have left the
> > > >follow-ups intact here, since the general point you make is
> > > >relevant - in my opinion - to all the groups involved.
> > >
> > > There's the problem. You are assuming total agreement with your
> > > assessment of what is relevant. The whole point of usenet is the
> > > freedom to decide for yourself. Hence kill files. Playing with
> > > the groups as is being done in these threads is stealing that right
> > > to choose.
> >
> > Since I left the crossposts *in*, I fail to see where I am stealing
> > anyone's right to choose, either by your definition or by mine. I am
> > not assuming that any one individual will see this thread as
> > relevant, only that - since it now pertains to Usenet protocol in
> > general, rather than a specific query regarding teen witches - it is
> > appropriate that the other newsgroup users already on the thread can
> > access it.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >However, I do not see that it is 'insular and inward looking' for
> > > >any unmoderated group to remove crossposts in follow-ups or employ
> > > >individual killfiles in order to eliminate deliberate trolling and
> > > >spamming, or simply to direct a discussion to a forum where it is
> > > >more appropriate. On the blueyonder service ngs, which are set up
> > > >for very specific and closely-defined purposes, it is customary to
> > > >add 'FU's set to...' at the end of the post in which the other ngs
> > > >are cut. Perhaps a similar practice - 'FU's set to ATW/ARW', for
> > > >example - would relieve your evident and understandable anxiety
> > > >that posters are missing valid debate, ensure that they could
> > > >still access and participate in the discussion, and at the same
> > > >time allow individal groups to set their own signal-to-noise
> > > >ratio.
> > >
> > > Actually it is pretty normal over most of usenet to indicate where
> > > follow ups are set to in the body of a post.
> >
> > If 'please confine this to alt*, crossposts removed' constitutes an
> > indication that FU's are set elsewhere, then I fail to see what your
> > original complaint is. You began by saying that removing crossposts
> > was a unilateral decision which deprived posters of valuable
> > discussion, which I agreed was a valid point. I suggested that
> > indicating where follow-ups were set would be a reasonable
> > compromise. Now you assert that this is already common practice.
> >
> > It allows those who do not
> > > agree with the last posters decision to alter it, and for others to
> > > subscribe to entire groups! if they wish to see perhaps one single
> > > post which formed the answer! This is fine if the group where the
> > > discussion is being diverted to is a small one, but what if it is a
> > > busy group with many posts every hour? You are condemning people
> > > to a choice between downloading huge amounts of unwanted material
> > > or missing the rest of a discussion they may have been following
> > > avidly.
> >
> > Perhaps you don't know about Google archives? Let me explain. If a
> > discussion is transferred to a group which you do not have
> > downloaded, there is a website which archives the majority of posts
> > (rather more than are carried by some erratic ISPs, in fact) and it
> > is possible not only to follow the discussion there, but also to post
> > replies. Subscribing to the group in question, and downloading all
> > the current content, is not necessary.
> > >
> > > If there is no interest in a thread it will die when no-one answers
> > > the postings in it. This method of culling groups from the headers
> > > appears to be nothing more than a crude attempt at censorship, a
> > > means of
> > > preventing those with whom the censors disagree from presenting
> > > alternative views to the members of the groups they seek to
> > > 'protect' from that viewpoint.
> >
> > Well, it's a mistake often made by people who are new to Usenet. I
> > shouldn't worry about it too much, Fenris - it isn't hard to keep up
> > with discussions which have been shifted elsewhere, or to learn to
> > access them through Google. Once you've got the hang of that, you can
> > spend some time looking at the content of the posts and working out
> > why crossposts have been added or removed. That'll give you a much
> > better idea of the dynamics.
>
>
> Why should it be impingent on them, and their ISP's, to go to all of this
> effort instead of you simply making the effort to delete/ignore the posts
> you do not want to read? As Fenris Wolf wisely pointed out, the issue here
> is not what you don't want to see but rather what you don't want *everyone
> else* to see.
> For example, you don't like what I say. Were this the only issue, you
would
> KF me or simply summon the fortitude to ignore me. However, you are afraid
> others may hear what I say and, Gods forbid, might even agree with it. So
> you use every means you can to limit my ability to speak freely. This is
the
> idea behind endlessly crowing about KF-ing someone instead of just doing
it,
> the "troll pit," and purposely diverting discussions to flames or drivel
> about beer and chocolate. This is EXACTLY what happened when UKRP
destroyed
> the Pagan Files Archive, not your stupid nonsense about an [AD] tag.
> Someone says something you don't agree with and you do your best to
> discredit it, quell it, or take any other means to make sure others don't
> hear the message based on your personal prejudices and while hiding behind
> some moral superiority (you even justify it by saying you are "protecting
> the newbies." You can try to whitewash it any way you wish; it is nothing
> but censorship.
Lush
--
speak to me at jm55atbigponddotnetdotau
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
news:9K4r7.360300$Jg.49...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:5dOq7.4630$cZ6.3...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > "Fenris Wolf" <Fen...@reality8.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:64bKdDD3...@reality8.demon.co.uk...
> >
> > > X-posting is an accepted part of usenet where many groups have
> > > overlapping content, and often there are groups whose content is
> > > identical, and the x-posts are seen as a way of gaining the input
> > > from those whose specialist knowledge may add to a discussion, and
> > > prevent identical threads and multiple single posts, which is
> > > happening in this discussion. When someone cuts the groups
> > > unilaterally, people following a thread may never see the answers,
> > > never get the chance to contribute.
> >
> > There is a difference between crossposting specialist knowledge to
> > relevant groups, which I agree is perfectly acceptable, and
> > eliminating trolls.
>
> "Troll" being someone you diagree with but can not counter with facts.
>
> > >
> > > Surely Pagans are not so insular and inward looking that they do
> > > not wish to talk to those not in their particular grouping?
> >
> > Some Pagans would rather not have crossposting trolls in their
> > newsgroup, since the trollposts then outweigh the valid exchange of
> > information which you mention above. I have yet to see anyone demand
> > the removal of crossposts when the topic concerned is interesting and
> > informative. I have, however, seen many requests, from alt* and
> > elsewhere, for crossposts to be removed when the material posted is
> > irrelevant to the group. For example, I have left the follow-ups
> > intact here, since the general point you make is relevant - in my
> > opinion - to all the groups involved.
> >
>
> So why have people on UKRP been changing the follow-ups on posts
concerning
> Witchcraft, Paganism, and the current world crisis? It really PISSES ME
OFF
> the way you censored groups are so disingenous that you can not just admit
> you exist for the purpose of allowing a specific cadre to control the flow
> of information and from whom it is allowed to flow. Moreso, the way you
act
> so morally superior because of it.
> Basically, anyone on UKRP who does not talk about chocolate, beer, or
> needing a hug is a "troll." The first sentence of your FAQ says you are
here
> to discuss Paganism. I find you all guilty of violating the FAQ and order
> you OFF the group.
>
> > However, I do not see that it is 'insular and inward looking' for any
> > unmoderated group to remove crossposts in follow-ups or employ
> > individual killfiles in order to eliminate deliberate trolling and
> > spamming, or simply to direct a discussion to a forum where it is
> > more appropriate. On the blueyonder service ngs, which are set up for
> > very specific and closely-defined purposes, it is customary to add
> > 'FU's set to...' at the end of the post in which the other ngs are
> > cut. Perhaps a similar practice - 'FU's set to ATW/ARW', for example
> > - - would relieve your evident and understandable anxiety that posters
> > are missing valid debate, ensure that they could still access and
> > participate in the discussion, and at the same time allow individal
> > groups to set their own signal-to-noise ratio.
>
> Look, if it is relevant, I will see to it that it gets crossposted. If you
> don't like it, go to a moderated group.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in
> message news:v4ur7.352745$GN.50...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> >
> > "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:Zx4r7.10013$cZ6.1...@news1.cableinet.net...
> >
> > > Nonono. "Room-mates", please. Who share the same posting ID, the
> > > same computer, and disappear as fast as they ... roomed :)
> >
> > Unfortunately, they were both pretty disgusted with what they saw
> > on UseNet and have no desire to return. Which is too bad, you could
> > have learned a lot from them. They are awesome Witches.
>
> *smile*. You will do better when you learn to learn, David. You do
> have some potential, despite what some of the others think about you.
Ha! As if the likes of you had any way to measure my "potential!"
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in
> message news:y4ur7.352758$GN.50...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> >
> > "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:rt6r7.10952$cZ6.1...@news1.cableinet.net...
> >
> > > The posting of private mail is not universally condemned on ARW
> > > (I refer you to Google). The posting of private mail *is*,
> > > however, condemned on UKRP (I refer you to Google).
> >
> > And I refer you to the fact that Carl Inglis did indeed post a
> > private e-mail from Terry (the one where he threatened to report
> > Carl's harassment).
>
> That would be the one in which Carl stated that he had attempted to
> email Terry privately regarding his breach of charter, to two of
> Terry's email addresses, I believe, and received a response accusing
> him of 'harassment' and no acknowledgment that Terry would
> acknowledge the charter. Breaching charter and refusing to answer
> email on the matter leaves the maintainer of the charter very little
> option except to make the correspondence public, since it is
> something which affects the protocols of the entire group. Can you
> find any other instances of private mail posted to UKRP? If so, I
> would be interested to hear about it.
Once again we see a twisting of the rules to support UKRP's censorship. How
many times can I prove this particular point?
> >
> > Game, set, match, Talesin, again
>
> Not quite. Although your effort is noted.
Now I have extra credit as well.
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
"Archaiser" <Arch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RLJq7.9945$o%6.17...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Talesin- Patriot and Witch Politely suggested :
>
>
> >> David you are doing it again :)
> >
> > It's Talesin, Archie. Do try to get that much right
>
> Terribly sorry Davey old boy.
> But I keep mis-spelling it as Taliesin, I'm sure you know the problem.<g>
> So if it's all the same to you, I'll stick with Davey.
I am not required to adapt to your stupidity. Any posts subsequent to this
one that addresses me by anything other than my chosen sobriquet will be
ignored (unless you say something really stupid that I can ream you for).
>
> >> As is your wont you take a throw away phrase out of context and reply
to
> >> it, leaving the rather more serious points about american support for
> >> terrorism. and interference in attempts to quell it, unanswered.
> >>
> >
> > I read what you wrote and did not discern anything worth responding to.
An
> > isolated incident on a barren rock and some Liberals whining before a
> > Congressional sub committee. I can not counter points that have not been
> > made
>
> Mmm - looks like I need to work on inter dimensional writing, I assumed,
> wrongly it would appear, that the english language was spoken in your
> isolated little universe. Or were the concepts too alien for you ?.
No, the concept of making mountains out of molehills is clear to me. I have
seen enough of it.
> If so I apologise, I will try to think of a way to simplify them, again.
Not at all. *I* should apologize for not understanding that someone of a,
shall we say, limited intellect might imagine complexities where none exist.
>
> >
> > Oh, it's our fault that you have allowed terrorists free reign in your
> > country for half a century now, is it?
>
> No - It's your fault that we have been prevented from stopping the free
> reign - as we have attempted to do many times.
Ha ha! What a powerful nation! You let others tell you when to defend your
own citizens? I am glad I live in a land with balls.
>
> > I found it quite interesting to see Tony Blair in the gallery during Our
> > President's address this evening. You could see the wheels turning
behind
> > his stone-like face: "Make appearances with the Americans now, get help
> > wiping out the IRA later."
>
> It was probably more like - "Maybe this bunch will let us get on with it
> now - without sticking their oar in again."
>
Yes yes, it's all our fault. I am sure we will be happy to clean up your
little domestic mess once we have taken care of our concerns. Now go havce
another cup of tea and wait for the Americans to come save you (again).
> >> Clear now ?
> >
> > You know, I don't like you. You are a troll of the worst kind- a
> > disingenuous one. You cavort with the likes of "I de Salvo" one minute
and
> > then want to conduct intellectual discourse with someone of my caliber
the
> > next. You have no right to expect me to respond to you, let alone demand
> > it. Clear now?
>
> Davey boy - I would love to have an intellectual discussion with you,
> perhaps like the ones I have had with Carl,
Search Result 2
From: de Valois (deva...@nailedandused.com)
Subject: Re: I need a sissy fagboy to abuse
Newsgroups: alt.acting
View: Complete Thread (5 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-09-21 20:05:44 PST
<snip>
>The possibility of a companion is not as interesting to me as the idea
>of a fuck-buddy who's into face-sitting, cock-slapping, butt-licking,
>ball-chewing, hair-pulling good times with a scratch or two to remember
>each other by. Sitting on someone's face is one of my favorite yoga
>positions. All things sexual are negotiable. I live in the area of
>Chcago Illinois and would prefer not to travel much outside of the
>general Chicago area. However, if you have red hair I'm willing to
>travel to say, Prague. Twinks, gym bunnies and other Narcissistic body
>nazis please don't bother responding to this ad as I will only laugh at
>you and make you feel even more inadequate. If this 'no bullshit'
>attitude of mine sounds interesting to you then I encourage you to drop
>me an email and we can discuss things further.
>
> Carl
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:de+author:Valois&hl=en&rnum=2&selm=
9ogtle01eec%40drn.newsguy.com
> or Noinden
Search Result 164
From: Noinden (sla...@orcon.net.nz)
Subject: Re: Hey, guess who's back?
Newsgroups: alt.religion.wicca
View: Complete Thread (344 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-06-18 12:14:53 PST
> "Rhyanon" <rhy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:OG2X6.12931$Kq4.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> : That's your allies for you, dressup drooid. Whatta joke! hahahaha!!!!
> :
> Oh but Rhy, he is soooo cute!!
> That pic on the ARW site... <sigh>
and I don't dress up ... lets look at RHYS pic ... hmmm yes thats not a
dress up "witch" ... black gown/robe ... yes thats normal dress (for a
goth .. a teen goth). Oh and unlike Rhy I belong to certain
organisations that certify skills ... as opposed to saying (one day)
"I'm a witch" ... I've yet to meet a real witch of the meso sort who
was BORN to it ... though most claim they have been! And lie!
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:Noinden&start=160&hl=en&rnum=164&se
lm=190620010717135844%25slaine%40orcon.net.nz
Um, you were saying something about "intellectual" conversation? Perhaps our
definitions of "intellectual" differ. It won't be the first time that's
happened.
When I can see the POV that the likes of your friends might possess, I will
get the same therapy that you all so desperately need.
> On the plus side though, your calibre can only improve,
Up is the only direction I go.
> and, since your feelings for me are not reciprocated by myself, ( I do
have a certain
> fondness for you you know<g>),
As evidenced by your great affection for my enemies, no doubt.
> I am quite happy for you to practice with
> me, in conjunction with any private lessons you may be taking, ( Have you
> thought about joining the local school debating society ?. They are quite
> gentle and won't shout at you.). I think Jani and 'Thenie would probably
> also pitch in and help a little, ( How about it Girls ?), and, if you ask
> him *very* nicely possibly CursusWalker might add a little advice from
time
> to time.
When I need to hear the prattle from the school yard, I will go to the one
down the street, thank you anyway.
I will not offer any equivalent advice to you since it is obvious that you
peaked out quite a few years ago
>
> If you are ever in any doubt about whether you are being rude or
> unreasonable, please, just ask, they are helpful people in this group and
> someone is bound to point you in the right direction.
>
Kiss my ass right on the crack.
Oh, was that over the line a bit?
The Talesin- Patriot and Witch
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in
> message news:A4ur7.352762$GN.50...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> >
> > "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:QM5r7.10590$cZ6.1...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
>
> > > To be grit requires much, much more - the understanding that
> > > neither beauty nor symmetry will be yours, that the tumbler will
> > > always control you, that your only role is to contribute to the
> > > beauty and strength of others.
> >
> > The tumbler is, of course, the universe
> > This part is wrong. You have missed one part of the essential
> > nature of grit: grit is stronger that the stones and changes them
> > forever.
>
> No, the grit is not innately stronger. It is useless, as a polishing
> medium, without the assistance of the tumbler's mechanism. Place a
> piece of grit besides a raw amethyst, and you'll be waiting a long
> time for your jewellery.
This is a stretch. Strength only becomes evident when energy is applied.
Like any other attribute, it is nothing unless you DO something with it. The
grit polishes the stone not vice versa, thus the grit is the stronger.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > That may be why the grit always stays at the bottom of the
> > > tumbler, whilst the gemstones go on to ... greater things.
> >
> > Greater things? Hardly. Whilst the grit goes on interacting with
> > the Universe, living an active life, and creating beauty out of
> > mundanity, the gemstone goes to an empty, motionless life where it
> > is merely "looked at."
>
> The gemstone has lost none of its strength, it has added another
> dimension - that of perceived physical beauty - to what was already
> there.
> The grit remains grey, functional, and driven only by the
> stops and starts of the external mechanism on which it is dependent.
>
Again, nothing but appearances.
>
> > > Only an analogy, of course.
> >
> > And a very apt one, as it turns out.
> > It is also very telling that you only value appearances.
>
> Not at all. Since you read at least some of my posts, it must be
> fairly evident that categorising by physical appearance alone is not
> something which I have ever done, or will do. Although that raises an
> interesting point, if you care to return briefly to the original
> analogy - since the gemstone has lost nothing of its original
> qualities by revealing the visual beauty contained within the raw
> stone, are you implying that the perfection which we all strive to
> achieve should *not* include improving the physical form, to the best
> of our respective abilities?
Your whole argument complete bypasses the strength and functionality of the
grit. Your claim as to the supposed superiority of the gem is based on
nothing but the fact that it "looks" nice.
Something else that you failed to consider is that the gem is something less
than it was when a stone.
Casey & Finnigan
> > > "Jani" <ja...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:Zx4r7.10013$cZ6.1...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > >
> > > > Nonono. "Room-mates", please. Who share the same posting ID, the
> > > > same computer, and disappear as fast as they ... roomed :)
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, they were both pretty disgusted with what they saw
> > > on UseNet and have no desire to return. Which is too bad, you could
> > > have learned a lot from them. They are awesome Witches.
> >
> > *smile*. You will do better when you learn to learn, David. You do
> > have some potential, despite what some of the others think about you.
>
> Ha! As if the likes of you had any way to measure my "potential!"
Wouldn't need a full size ruler.... just a box of crayons.
--
Casey & Finnigan - purveyors of fine Single Malt Highland whisky brewed on
the wild west coast of Canada in a MacUisdin bathtub
"I'm sick of this room and everyone in it!" - Bender
Dopeler effect: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come
at you rapidly. ~Author unknown
"Everything's gone wrong since Canada came along!" - MAC (Mothers Against
Canada)
Archaiser
> I am not required to adapt to your stupidity. Any posts subsequent to this
> one that addresses me by anything other than my chosen sobriquet will be
> ignored (unless you say something really stupid that I can ream you for).
Well D... oops.
Well dear heart I'll just have to be careful won't I, BTW could I have
definition of stupid by your standards please, I don't think we are singing
from the same hymn book on this one.<g>
> No, the concept of making mountains out of molehills is clear to me. I
> have seen enough of it.
Indeed you have sir, mainly from what I've seen, originating from your own
keyboard and screen.
> Not at all. *I* should apologize for not understanding that someone of a,
> shall we say, limited intellect might imagine complexities where none
> exist.
Intelligence being a complexity of sorts - I'm afraid I'll have to agree
with you on this. I accept - no hard feelings.
> Ha ha! What a powerful nation! You let others tell you when to defend your
> own citizens? I am glad I live in a land with balls.
Indeed you do sir, and your politicians generate even more every time they
open their mouths.
> Yes yes, it's all our fault. I am sure we will be happy to clean up your
> little domestic mess once we have taken care of our concerns. Now go havce
> another cup of tea and wait for the Americans to come save you (again).
Weeeeell - It's not that I don't appreciate the wonderful job you have done
in Palestine, but if it's all the same to you I think the death rate might
be rather lower if we did it ourselves, but thank you for the offer.
> Um, you were saying something about "intellectual" conversation? Perhaps
> our definitions of "intellectual" differ. It won't be the first time
> that's happened.
<snipped uncharacteristic examples of posts>
No <sigh> and I can't see any signs of improvement on the horizon either.
> When I can see the POV that the likes of your friends might possess, I
> will get the same therapy that you all so desperately need.
For every one you dig up to show your view, I can produce at least one to
demonstrate mine, taken out of context of the time and thread they are
meaningless.
>> On the plus side though, your calibre can only improve,
>
> Up is the only direction I go.
Up is the only direction left to you.
>> and, since your feelings for me are not reciprocated by myself, ( I do
> have a certain
>> fondness for you you know<g>),
>
> As evidenced by your great affection for my enemies, no doubt.
Perhaps they are your enemies, why should that mean they are mine.?
They have done me no harm, and have always been polite and courteous to me.
Whereas yourself and BT have on occasion been quite rude.
But I don't hold grudges.
>> I am quite happy for you to practice with
>> me, in conjunction with any private lessons you may be taking, ( Have you
>> thought about joining the local school debating society ?. They are quite
>> gentle and won't shout at you.). I think Jani and 'Thenie would probably
>> also pitch in and help a little, ( How about it Girls ?), and, if you ask
>> him *very* nicely possibly CursusWalker might add a little advice from
> time
>> to time.
>
> When I need to hear the prattle from the school yard, I will go to the one
> down the street, thank you anyway.
Oh dear me - are you _quite_ sure you won't get into trouble ?
I mean sometimes that sort of behavior can be misinterpreted by the
authorities you know. Not that I think a fine upstanding citizen like
yourself could be thought of in that way of course. Just be sure not to
wear your raincoat. Best to be safe - eh.
> I will not offer any equivalent advice to you since it is obvious that you
> peaked out quite a few years ago
Why thank you - but in all modesty, I think I have a way to go before I
reach my peak yet.
As you improve you wil realise I'm not _really_ that good. But I can see
how it might seem that way to you.
> Kiss my ass right on the crack.
> Oh, was that over the line a bit?
No, not at all - that was rather uncalled for I feel but in no way
offensive. On the off chance that you meant it though I feel it's only fair
to tell you that my sexual preferences do not extend to males, sorry, I'm
sure you are very nice , but it is destined not to be I'm afraid.
> We are not afraid!
And nor should you be !
--
Your Friend
Archie
By Thy Manners, Let thou be judged.
Archaiser
>> That would be the one in which Carl stated that he had attempted to
>> email Terry privately regarding his breach of charter, to two of
>> Terry's email addresses, I believe, and received a response accusing
>> him of 'harassment' and no acknowledgment that Terry would
>> acknowledge the charter. Breaching charter and refusing to answer
>> email on the matter leaves the maintainer of the charter very little
>> option except to make the correspondence public, since it is
>> something which affects the protocols of the entire group. Can you
>> find any other instances of private mail posted to UKRP? If so, I
>> would be interested to hear about it.
>
> Once again we see a twisting of the rules to support UKRP's censorship.
> How many times can I prove this particular point?
Well - to be fair I think once would be enough, if you _could_ do it.
When can we expect it ?
--
Be Well
Archaiser
Archaiser
>
>> smile. You will do better when you learn to learn, David. You do
>> have some potential, despite what some of the others think about you.
>
> Ha! As if the likes of you had any way to measure my "potential!"
>
It is difficult, no doubt, but the Lady Jani has vast experience in these
things I believe - and a Micrometer.
de Valois
> > > you talk to TailLesion. Next week, after his prescription runs
> > > out again, he'll be back to being true-blue 'Murican and
> > > anti-Brit.
> >
> > Split personality if you ask me :-)
> >
> Nonono. "Room-mates", please. Who share the same posting ID, the same
> computer, and disappear as fast as they ... roomed :)
>
Actually, Jani, that's precisely what he said when he made his return
to our midsts earlier this summer: apparently, his <koffkoff>
"roommate" had been threatened and harassed, for sockpuppeting.
Carl
We're bigger than Jesus! - JWLennon
de Valois
>
> Oh look! Here's a match made in heaven. These two will be swapping bodily
> fluids in no time.
> Have a care CW. Carl stalks men as well as women. In fact, he threatened to
> rape one on alt.acting
> --
Tailpipes, the only one who does any stalking around here is you.
o/~ But everyone knew her as Nancy. o/~
Case numbers, anyone? <g>
de Valois
> "The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
> news:iK4r7.360318$Jg.49...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> >
> > Oh look! Here's a match made in heaven. These two will be swapping bodily
> > fluids in no time.
> > Have a care CW. Carl stalks men as well as women. In fact, he threatened
> to
> > rape one on alt.acting
>
>
> Go on then Davey Trollesion.
> Substantiate.
Agreed, CW.
Oh, and TailLesion?
Remember that this is being logged. I wouldn't take this opportunity
to lie or repeat rumours or things you've made up, if I were you.
de Valois
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> > <snip same boring Janistuff>
> >
> > > Of course you're worth responding to: your attempts at disruption
> > > invariably encourage many responses from those who are quite
> > > happy to disseminate genuine information across Pagan Usenet in
> > > response to your trolling. Perhaps if you saw yourself as the
> > > grit which polishes the gemstones, you'd have a much clearer idea
> > > of your purpose in life?
> > >
> > > HTH
> > >
> > > Jani
> >
> > Jokes on you, o' pool cleaning fan.
> > I DO see myself as the grit the polishes the gemstones. Now go
> > ponder that for a while.
>
> Oh, good, for once we're in agreement. I don't need to ponder it,
> since your personal agenda has been evident for years, even when you
> allowed it to slip due to - shall we say, personal and emotional
> difficulties?
>
> and honesty then is possible for most, who are (if we continue the
> analogy) shaped and polished stones, at the mercy of both the
> tumbling machine and the artificially introduced grit. To be a
> polished gemstone is relatively easy, and requires only acceptance.
> beauty nor symmetry will be yours, that the tumbler will always
> control you, that your only role is to contribute to the beauty and
> strength of others.
>
> whilst the gemstones go on to ... greater things.
>
>
Jani, just when I think I can no longer be astounded by anything on
Usenet, you come along and write up the most terrific analogy I've
ever seen!
Of course, the analogy falls short in one respect: Davey will never
contribute to beauty. The most he can aspire to is rough cuts and
injuries to the craftsmen and women.
Snakes
B.B., L.D.
Kurt Doughty
Cursuswalker > wrote in message <9oln6m$i78$2...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>"Lush" <lush...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
>news:cXir7.82927$bY5.4...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> what en earth is a 'dissemblimg fuckwit'?
>
>I'm very glad you asked me that question.
>
>A "dissembling fuckwit" is a fuckwit (One who's wits are completely
>fucked)............who manipulates the truth and deliberately misleads.
>
>Hence a dissembling fuckwit will use any and all wits still available to
>him/her/it in strenuous efforts to lie.
>
>--
>CURSUSWALKER
>...
>/|\
>
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
> Oh thanks for setting me straight. And what better word to describe him?
> hehe
>
> And does 'alt.flame.talesin' really exist?
Watch this space....
After all, this is Free Pagan Usenet...
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
> If you don't like the place, then ignore it. And stop talking about it.
He can't.
We've got him trapped and he can't leave now.
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
>
> This, as well as the fact that not all of the files are here and that not
> everyone who used the files is on UseNet, thus they have no idea another
> site exists.
Well I just did a Yahoo search on the phrase "pagan files archive"
And look at what came up at the top of the list.........
http://uk.google.yahoo.com/bin/query_uk?p=pagan+files+archive&hc&hs=7
> Plus no one has been able to sufficiently explain how they can say this
site
> is "exactly the same" on the one hand, yet they have posted it dozens of
> times WITHOUT the use of an [ad] tag- they very thing they destroyed the
PFA
> over.
There is nothing to prevent the posting of url's, as has been explained to
you many times.
You fail to mention that the url was mostly posted in response toy YOUR
assertion that the files were unavailable.
> The snots on UKRP just did not like the idea of someone- especially a
Yank-
> invading their "territory."
Then how do you explain the presence of Chris and the other US regs we have
had from time to time, with absolutly NO problems?
> Their insistence on hiding their cirme behind a
> paper-thin and poorly thought out "argument" is laughable.
Crime.
Oooh....
Hyperbole...
Here's the case-file...
http://www.drak.net/about-paganfiles.html
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"de Valois" <de_v...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:ba90be62.01092...@posting.google.com...
> "Cursuswalker"
> >The Talesin
> > >
> > > Oh look! Here's a match made in heaven. These two will be swapping
bodily
> > > fluids in no time.
> > > Have a care CW. Carl stalks men as well as women. In fact, he
threatened
> > > to rape one on alt.acting
> >
> > (This shall be sport)
> >
> > Go on then Davey Trollesion.
> > Substantiate.
>
> Agreed, CW.
>
> Oh, and TailLesion?
>
> Remember that this is being logged. I wouldn't take this opportunity
> to lie or repeat rumours or things you've made up, if I were you.
Shall I try tactic #568?
"Set an arbitrary deadline for replying to a challenge"
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
Fire
"The Talesin- Patriot and Witch" <the_wi...@yahoo.XcomX> wrote in message
>concerns. Now go havce another cup of tea and wait for >the Americans to
come save you (again).
We'd be waiting a long time ....
IIRC the last time the US and Britain went to war together we spent a good
while cooling our heels waiting for the Americans to get there ... and had
the UN decided to take any action against the East after the WTC events we'd
have been doing so again.
Add to that the fact our troops are better trained than the US forces, and
one gets the impression you're standing on the wrong soapbox again Talespin.
Sarah
Rev. N.A.G.
You know, it's fairly simple to create it....
--
/nikaia/the undead/
ONO/OCC
Mother Bag Lady of the Order of Sisters of Perpetual Bagging
"I'm counting UFOs. I signal them with my lighter. And in this moment, I am
happy."
>
> --
> CURSUSWALKER
> ...
> /|\
>
>
NO @spamhotmail.com Cursuswalker
"Rev. N.A.G." <blu...@privacy.nu> wrote in message
news:9oo543$cji$1...@iac5.navix.net...
>
> "Cursuswalker" <cursuswalker NO @ SPAM hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9onq6d$a9c$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Lush" <lush...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
> > news:gWCr7.86882$bY5.4...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > > Oh thanks for setting me straight. And what better word to describe
him?
> > > hehe
> > >
> > > And does 'alt.flame.talesin' really exist?
> >
> > Watch this space....
> >
> > After all, this is Free Pagan Usenet...
>
> You know, it's fairly simple to create it....
alt.config is my friend...
--
CURSUSWALKER
...
/|\
Archaiser
I doubt not the nobility of your motives, but, is it not just possible that
the inevitable over-subscription could bring down the entire usenet ?