G1 Cartoon spirituality / religion

[Velvet Glove]

Trying to give myself a refresher on the complete headache of the Cybertron / Autobot religious mythos as presented by the Sunbow cartoon, in a succession of McGuffin of the Week stories which mostly contradicted each other. Anybody willing to fact check and contribute?

1. Vector Sigma: The Only Way of Creating New Transformers... except when it isn't.
* Supercomputer, claims to be older than Cybertron. At least semi-sentient. Possibly more so now Alpha Trion uploaded himself into it, though the two seem to remain separate entities. Allegedly made the events of Rebirth happen, but it's really not clear how. But this is the closest thing we have to a God in cartoon-verse.
* Requires a key, which can be a key specifically made for that purpose, Alpha Trion or the Matrix... (others?)
* Location? Deep within Cybertron, but not in the stony parts.

2. The Autobot Matrix: Carried by all Primes and contains their wisdom.
* Apparently originated during Quintesson rule, but no info on how or why?
* TF wiki has a list of retro-active canon names for all the Matrix-bearers; how much are these from cartoon source material and how much is from modern G1? (I allow myself more wiggle-room if it's a comic crossover)
* Has a prophecy (prophet unknown) about lighting the darkest hour. Not sure if we have the definitive wording on that prophecy. I feel like the details are different depending on the reference. The prophecy has been fulfilled *twice*, once by Hot Rod against Unicron and once by Optimus Prime against the Hate Plague.
* Matrix-bearers can speak through the Matrix after their deaths... and so can Alpha Trion apparently, though he was more of a Matrix guardian than a Matrix bearer. But some connection to Vector Sigma since it doubles as a key.
* Has the power to physically change its bearer, but Optimus Prime was rebuilt physically by Alpha Trion. Ultra Magnus was unchanged (and didn't take a Prime name either).
* Incompatible with Decepticons.

3. Plasma Energy Chamber
* Oh, god, I don't even remember what it's supposed to be. Something to do with forging the first Autobot bodies. And since then it's just sat there behind a locked door?
* Also has a key which is kept by the Autobots.
* Yet another thing located in the bowels of Cybertron. Cybertron is basically constipated with McGuffins, though most of them are Quintesson hangovers less relevant to the Autobots.
* Re-energised Cybertron finally via Vector Sigma... why couldn't they use it as a source of energy before?

Sidenote: Decepticons are really hard done by when it comes to magical McGuffins. They get to share Vector Sigma, but not the Matrix or the Plasma Energy Chamber, even though those have some sort of connection to VS.

Primacron's Assistant:
* Referred to as The Oracle in the dialogue script. That would seem to reference the events of Call of the Primitives, but he doesn't exactly tell the future there. May be a candidate for the Matrix Prophecy?
* Created the Primitives, which appears to refer to any TF with a beast (real or fantasy) mode, Decepticon or Autobot. The implication is that there is something intrinsically different between these and TFs that transform into objects, but I don't think there are any specifics.
* Canonically, beast modes ended up superceding vehicle modes if we treat BW as a continuation of the G1 cartoon, but that was some kind of technorganic evolution, I think?
* Created by Primacron before Primacron built Unicron, unspecified millions of years ago--(NB, Primacron is a basic organic alien who doesn't look like he should be able to survive that long.)
* Started life as a gorilla-type robot primitive, whose body was more or less destroyed by Unicron; its life essence escaped in a construction identical to the Matrix (no canon explanation for the apparent reference; said construction only appears in the flashback and not in present day) and hid on a barren planet. Seems to have stayed in its cave ever since, so not clear when it might have built Sky Lynx etc, but it was able to stay aware of events elsewhere in the universe.
* Can communicate in a form that only other Primitives can hear. Not clear if it can talk to anybody else.
* Was on a quest to stop Tornedron; unclear if it made any attempt to stop Unicron. (This would be the most plausible way to connect it to the Matrix of Leadership.)

NB: According to BW/BM, Vector Sigma becomes "the Oracle" some time after G1 continuity ends.

[Zobovor]

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 5:03:03 AM UTC-6, Velvet Glove wrote:

> Trying to give myself a refresher on the complete headache of the Cybertron / Autobot religious mythos as presented by the Sunbow cartoon, in a succession of McGuffin of the Week stories which mostly contradicted each other. Anybody willing to fact check and contribute?

Nope, sorry. I basically know nothing about the G1 cartoon. You're on your own!

> 1. Vector Sigma: The Only Way of Creating New Transformers... except when it isn't.
> * Supercomputer, claims to be older than Cybertron. At least semi-sentient. Possibly more so now Alpha Trion uploaded himself into it, though the two seem to remain separate entities. Allegedly made the events of Rebirth happen, but it's really not clear how. But this is the closest thing we have to a God in cartoon-verse.
> * Requires a key, which can be a key specifically made for that purpose, Alpha Trion or the Matrix... (others?)
> * Location? Deep within Cybertron, but not in the stony parts.

All correct and accurate, yes. No other known keys, at least not that we saw in the show.

The fact that there were so many guardians defending Vector Sigma suggests to me that the Quintessons did NOT want the later-generation Transformers to be able to find it or access it. (They might have designed first-generation Transformers with the ability to access it as a convenience, but stopped adding that feature after robots started rebelling and acting out against the Quintessons.)

My personal canon is that the Quintessons found the Matrix floating through space, and they constructed Vector Sigma around the design of the Matrix in order to try to access its power. The Matrix is a key that can access the AllSpark, and when Vector Sigma grants a Transformer life, it is imbuing them with a piece of the AllSpark essence. When a Transformer dies, his "soul" returns to the AllSpark and rejoins it.

The Quintessons would originally use the Matrix against the leaders of the rebellion, extracting their souls from their bodies and trapping them inside of the Matrix. When the Autobots finally ousted the Quintessons from Cybertron, they guarded the trapped souls inside the Matrix, eventually learning to commune with them and learn from their mistakes.

> 2. The Autobot Matrix: Carried by all Primes and contains their wisdom.
> * Apparently originated during Quintesson rule, but no info on how or why?
> * TF wiki has a list of retro-active canon names for all the Matrix-bearers; how much are these from cartoon source material and how much is from modern G1? (I allow myself more wiggle-room if it's a comic crossover)

So, the script for "Five Faces of Darkness" gave the ancient Autobot leaders goofy names like "Pre-Transformer" or "U-Haul Robot." Names like Nova Prime and Sentinel Prime were assigned after the fact, but they're arguably better names than their "official" ones.

> * Has a prophecy (prophet unknown) about lighting the darkest hour. Not sure if we have the definitive wording on that prophecy. I feel like the details are different depending on the reference. The prophecy has been fulfilled *twice*, once by Hot Rod against Unicron and once by Optimus Prime against the Hate Plague.
> * Matrix-bearers can speak through the Matrix after their deaths... and so can Alpha Trion apparently, though he was more of a Matrix guardian than a Matrix bearer. But some connection to Vector Sigma since it doubles as a key.
> * Has the power to physically change its bearer, but Optimus Prime was rebuilt physically by Alpha Trion. Ultra Magnus was unchanged (and didn't take a Prime name either).

It's clear the Matrix doesn't just upgrade anybody who stuffs it into their chest. Hot Rod felt some of its energy after a dying Optimus dropped it, which didn't seem to happen with Magnus. I honestly wonder if the only reason Hot Rod was upgraded was because he was the Chosen One. It might be an exception rather than the rule.

> * Incompatible with Decepticons.

I'm sure you're talking about Scourge here. We don't actually know if Scourge got all lumpy and mutated because he's a Decepticon, or if it's because he was a creation of Unicron. Also, consider that while Scourge was horribly transformed, Galvatron popped the Matrix into his arm cannon and it didn't change him at all.

> 3. Plasma Energy Chamber
> * Oh, god, I don't even remember what it's supposed to be. Something to do with forging the first Autobot bodies. And since then it's just sat there behind a locked door?

Yes, it was described as the foundry where the bodies of the original Autobots were forged. We can infer that the Quintessons were able to operate it because they are seemingly partly organic, but it is lethal to fully mechanical robots.

> * Also has a key which is kept by the Autobots.
> * Yet another thing located in the bowels of Cybertron. Cybertron is basically constipated with McGuffins, though most of them are Quintesson hangovers less relevant to the Autobots.
> * Re-energised Cybertron finally via Vector Sigma... why couldn't they use it as a source of energy before?

It required very specific circumstances for that to happen. Opening the chamber caused a nuclear reaction within the Sun, which generated a lot of excess energy. But, it was Spike's idea to use the rocket thruster Galvatron had installed on Cybertron to suck energy into the planet instead of expelling rocket thrust, and that's what was able to successfully repower Cybertron. So, they couldn't have done it without the rocket engine, and they couldn't have done it without the Sun nearly going supernova.

> Sidenote: Decepticons are really hard done by when it comes to magical McGuffins. They get to share Vector Sigma, but not the Matrix or the Plasma Energy Chamber, even though those have some sort of connection to VS.

Well, the Decepticons got the Heart of Cybertron (which powered the star drive of their space cruiser). So that's not nothing.

> Primacron's Assistant:
> * Referred to as The Oracle in the dialogue script. That would seem to reference the events of Call of the Primitives, but he doesn't exactly tell the future there. May be a candidate for the Matrix Prophecy?
> * Created the Primitives, which appears to refer to any TF with a beast (real or fantasy) mode, Decepticon or Autobot. The implication is that there is something intrinsically different between these and TFs that transform into objects, but I don't think there are any specifics.

Most of the primitives have established origins, or origins that are strongly hinted at, so it's hard to say just how many of them were actually built by Primacron. Predacons and Terrorcons are almost certainly Quintesson creations. All the cassettes were constructed by their respective Decepticon or Autobot teams. The only one who isn't accounted for is Sky Lynx, basically.

Also note that neither Laserbeak nor any Insecticons appear in "Call of the Primitives" even though we explicitly saw them survive the movie.

> * Canonically, beast modes ended up superceding vehicle modes if we treat BW as a continuation of the G1 cartoon, but that was some kind of technorganic evolution, I think?

We don't really know for sure what the Maximals or Predacons transformed into on Cybertron. Cheetor seems to be coining his name as he emerges after getting his cheetah mode, suggesting he wasn't a cat back on Cybertron. But, it's hard to say. Fans used to think that the Transmetals with their rockets and motorcycle parts and things were exhibiting aspects of their old vehicle modes.

The term "technorganic" seems to describe the specific transformation made to the Maximals by the Oracle, incidentally. It was never used before Beast Machines. But, like "reformatting," it's been appropriated since then and used in a wider context.

> * Created by Primacron before Primacron built Unicron, unspecified millions of years ago--(NB, Primacron is a basic organic alien who doesn't look like he should be able to survive that long.)
> * Started life as a gorilla-type robot primitive, whose body was more or less destroyed by Unicron; its life essence escaped in a construction identical to the Matrix (no canon explanation for the apparent reference; said construction only appears in the flashback and not in present day) and hid on a barren planet.

You have to extrapolate a hell of a lot to get this to make any sense. The conclusion I arrived at was that since Primacron created Unicron, then it makes sense somebody who worked closely with Primacron would be familiar enough with Unicron's design to know how to kill him. So, this is why the Matrix is the one thing Unicron truly feared. (Unicron thought he had killed Primacron, so he wouldn't think that threat still existed.)

Seems to have stayed in its cave ever since, so not clear when it might have built Sky Lynx etc, but it was able to stay aware of events elsewhere in the universe.
> * Can communicate in a form that only other Primitives can hear. Not clear if it can talk to anybody else.
> * Was on a quest to stop Tornedron; unclear if it made any attempt to stop Unicron. (This would be the most plausible way to connect it to the Matrix of Leadership.)

One supposes that the assistant drifting off into space, being found by Quintessons, etc. was part of the long game to eventually have the Autobots use the power of the Matrix against Unicron. But, this is like 99% fan fiction based on a single animated scene.

> NB: According to BW/BM, Vector Sigma becomes "the Oracle" some time after G1 continuity ends.

Yes, and a key to Vector Sigma is generated by Tankorr at one point in order to access its secrets. The plasma energy chamber appears in Beast Machines, too.

So, yeah, you clearly already know all this stuff. You didn't need us at all, did you?


Zob

[Codigo Postal]

> * Created by Primacron before Primacron built Unicron, unspecified millions of years ago--(NB, Primacron is a basic organic alien who doesn't look like he should be able to survive that long.)

Frankly, I don’t buy the Primacron origin story.

I’m reminded of Madman’s Paradise, where the Red Wizard rattles off a biased version of events that is flatly contradicted by what’s shown onscreen.

Primacron, as you astutely note, is organic, and not in any way portrayed as an ancient being possessed of the power and wisdom to create a Unicron. He lives on a barren asteroid, without any visible means of manufacturing a Buick, much less a God of Chaos.

At best, my head canon surmises that he’s a grifter in the vein of a Skuxxoid (they even look related), someone who chanced upon the abandoned laboratory of a greater intellect and, informed by delusions of grandeur, began to use the technology to wreak havoc. That’s why he can’t turn off Tornedron - he literally has no idea what he’s doing.

As for the Assistant, and why he looks like the Matrix…I’m open to suggestions.

[Codigo Postal]

> We don't really know for sure what the Maximals or Predacons transformed into on Cybertron. Cheetor seems to be coining his name as he emerges after getting his cheetah mode, suggesting he wasn't a cat back on Cybertron.

The Transformers seem to be rather casual with their naming. Optimus even casually renames his old and trusted companion Bumblebee into "Goldbug" based on nothing more than a passing comment (an action that was hilariously parodied years ago by Dr. Smoov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq1_6D9QS9Y).

[Velvet Glove]

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 2:28:16 AM UTC+1, Zobovor wrote:
>
> The fact that there were so many guardians defending Vector Sigma suggests to me that the Quintessons did NOT want the later-generation Transformers to be able to find it or access it. (They might have designed first-generation Transformers with the ability to access it as a convenience, but stopped adding that feature after robots started rebelling and acting out against the Quintessons.)

So you're assuming that 1985 Vector Sigma is much the same as it was in Quintesson time, 11 million years (and countless TF creations) earlier? I feel like that would be a bit of a stretch. While the Quints may indeed have put in defences in an attempt to stop others using it, I have to think that between now and then, Autobots and Decepticons would have nullified those--and then put in their own.

Besides that, Vector Sigma is in a very impressive chamber. It doesn't have a whole lot of features, beyond the giant floating orb, but it's a massive room and the architectural design is on a grand scale, clearly placing the focus on Vector Sigma and nothing else. I feel like the Quints either wouldn't bother with such a fancy room for what they see as an AI generator, or we could expect to see various dais (is dais both singular and plural?) for Quintessons to float upon while giving their instructions to VS.

So yeah, my canon tends to assume that modern day VS has evolved a lot from what the Quintessons started.

>
> My personal canon is that the Quintessons found the Matrix floating through space, and they constructed Vector Sigma around the design of the Matrix in order to try to access its power. The Matrix is a key that can access the AllSpark, and when Vector Sigma grants a Transformer life, it is imbuing them with a piece of the AllSpark essence. When a Transformer dies, his "soul" returns to the AllSpark and rejoins it.
>
> The Quintessons would originally use the Matrix against the leaders of the rebellion, extracting their souls from their bodies and trapping them inside of the Matrix. When the Autobots finally ousted the Quintessons from Cybertron, they guarded the trapped souls inside the Matrix, eventually learning to commune with them and learn from their mistakes.

This is definitely not the direction I'm going in (trying to build up the non-Quintesson side of my head canon), but I really like it. Ever written any fanfic around this?

> > 2. The Autobot Matrix: Carried by all Primes and contains their wisdom.
> > * Apparently originated during Quintesson rule, but no info on how or why?
> > * TF wiki has a list of retro-active canon names for all the Matrix-bearers; how much are these from cartoon source material and how much is from modern G1? (I allow myself more wiggle-room if it's a comic crossover)

> So, the script for "Five Faces of Darkness" gave the ancient Autobot leaders goofy names like "Pre-Transformer" or "U-Haul Robot." Names like Nova Prime and Sentinel Prime were assigned after the fact, but they're arguably better names than their "official" ones.

I will defend Flint Dille's honour by pointing out that those are clearly intended as descriptors rather than names! I'm still deciding how I feel about the retroactive names... It annoys me that Prima is not a female name. (One of the problems with taking FFoD narration as a straight up record of the past Primes is that then we have to acknowledge that they're all male and either the Autobots or the Matrix are just inherently sexist.)

> It's clear the Matrix doesn't just upgrade anybody who stuffs it into their chest. Hot Rod felt some of its energy after a dying Optimus dropped it, which didn't seem to happen with Magnus. I honestly wonder if the only reason Hot Rod was upgraded was because he was the Chosen One. It might be an exception rather than the rule.

Yeah, this is how I tend to interpret it. I think Sentinel Prime is shown to have an upgrade, but obviously, that could be a physical rebuild like Optimus was. I don't recall seeing any other physical changes.

> > * Incompatible with Decepticons.
>
> I'm sure you're talking about Scourge here. We don't actually know if Scourge got all lumpy and mutated because he's a Decepticon, or if it's because he was a creation of Unicron. Also, consider that while Scourge was horribly transformed, Galvatron popped the Matrix into his arm cannon and it didn't change him at all.

Yes, I was thinking of Scourge and that's an excellent point that it would make more sense if it's the Unicronian aspect that's corrupting rather than his Decepticon programming. Except now I'm annoyed that nothing happened to Galvatron!

> > 3. Plasma Energy Chamber
> > * Oh, god, I don't even remember what it's supposed to be. Something to do with forging the first Autobot bodies. And since then it's just sat there behind a locked door?
> Yes, it was described as the foundry where the bodies of the original Autobots were forged. We can infer that the Quintessons were able to operate it because they are seemingly partly organic, but it is lethal to fully mechanical robots.

OK, that actually does make a lot of sense, especially since some Quintessons are almost completely organic.

> > * Re-energised Cybertron finally via Vector Sigma... why couldn't they use it as a source of energy before?
> It required very specific circumstances for that to happen. Opening the chamber caused a nuclear reaction within the Sun, which generated a lot of excess energy. But, it was Spike's idea to use the rocket thruster Galvatron had installed on Cybertron to suck energy into the planet instead of expelling rocket thrust, and that's what was able to successfully repower Cybertron. So, they couldn't have done it without the rocket engine, and they couldn't have done it without the Sun nearly going supernova.

Fair enough. Impossible science aside, it still feels a bit weird that they *never* tried to do it before. I mean, if Cybertron was in an energy famine for millions of years, you'd think somebody would be desperate enough to try it. Obviously, there's plenty of off-screen time to say that somebody did! It just didn't happen in the cartoon timeframe.

(I quite like to think that the famine was caused by the Decepticons attempting to mess with the Plasma Energy Chamber, without a clear idea of how it worked. Though that would require a lot more thought into figuring out a personal-canon set of rules for How The Plasma Energy Chamber Works and that just seems like too much of a headache.

> > Sidenote: Decepticons are really hard done by when it comes to magical McGuffins. They get to share Vector Sigma, but not the Matrix or the Plasma Energy Chamber, even though those have some sort of connection to VS.
> Well, the Decepticons got the Heart of Cybertron (which powered the star drive of their space cruiser). So that's not nothing.

Oh! See, I knew I'd miss something. Is there any backstory for this *before* they used it in their space cruiser?

> Most of the primitives have established origins, or origins that are strongly hinted at, so it's hard to say just how many of them were actually built by Primacron. Predacons and Terrorcons are almost certainly Quintesson creations. All the cassettes were constructed by their respective Decepticon or Autobot teams. The only one who isn't accounted for is Sky Lynx, basically.

I think *technically* Dinobots are the only ones who are created on-screen, as it were. So you *could* fudge the backstories of the others, but I agree it would be a bit of a stretch, particularly for the cassettes.

> Also note that neither Laserbeak nor any Insecticons appear in "Call of the Primitives" even though we explicitly saw them survive the movie.

Neither do the Allicons or Sharkticons. Do Primitives have to have Vector Sigma programming? (Though that would make the Oracle's claim to have built them even more difficult to explain.)

> > * Canonically, beast modes ended up superceding vehicle modes if we treat BW as a continuation of the G1 cartoon, but that was some kind of technorganic evolution, I think?
> We don't really know for sure what the Maximals or Predacons transformed into on Cybertron. Cheetor seems to be coining his name as he emerges after getting his cheetah mode, suggesting he wasn't a cat back on Cybertron. But, it's hard to say. Fans used to think that the Transmetals with their rockets and motorcycle parts and things were exhibiting aspects of their old vehicle modes.
>
> The term "technorganic" seems to describe the specific transformation made to the Maximals by the Oracle, incidentally. It was never used before Beast Machines. But, like "reformatting," it's been appropriated since then and used in a wider context.

Duly noted. It's been so long since I watched any Beast stuff...

> You have to extrapolate a hell of a lot to get this to make any sense. The conclusion I arrived at was that since Primacron created Unicron, then it makes sense somebody who worked closely with Primacron would be familiar enough with Unicron's design to know how to kill him. So, this is why the Matrix is the one thing Unicron truly feared. (Unicron thought he had killed Primacron, so he wouldn't think that threat still existed.)

> One supposes that the assistant drifting off into space, being found by Quintessons, etc. was part of the long game to eventually have the Autobots use the power of the Matrix against Unicron. But, this is like 99% fan fiction based on a single animated scene.

Absolutely, especially since that one scene is almost certainly unintentional, an animator using the Matrix model without realising its implications--though, who knows, maybe a full script or storyboards will emerge one day detailing that this is fully intended to be the Autobot Matrix.

That said, that few seconds of screentime does feel like a *necessary* link into the Movie mythology, and why the Matrix was the only thing that could stop Unicron. So it's worth some fanfiction treatment, and I'm sure lots of people have made some reference to it. Unfortunately, Call of the Primitives is all epic set-up with a final minute of slapstick as pay off. I think that makes it harder to create a *satisfying* theory that's also fully cartoon-consistent.

> So, yeah, you clearly already know all this stuff. You didn't need us at all, did you?

Yes, and that's why you wrote such a short post in response!

Velvet Glove (who will always need nit-pickers. Figuratively.)

[Velvet Glove]

On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 1:40:45 AM UTC+1, Codigo Postal wrote:
> Frankly, I don’t buy the Primacron origin story.
>
> I’m reminded of Madman’s Paradise, where the Red Wizard rattles off a biased version of events that is flatly contradicted by what’s shown onscreen.
>
> Primacron, as you astutely note, is organic, and not in any way portrayed as an ancient being possessed of the power and wisdom to create a Unicron. He lives on a barren asteroid, without any visible means of manufacturing a Buick, much less a God of Chaos.
>
> At best, my head canon surmises that he’s a grifter in the vein of a Skuxxoid (they even look related), someone who chanced upon the abandoned laboratory of a greater intellect and, informed by delusions of grandeur, began to use the technology to wreak havoc. That’s why he can’t turn off Tornedron - he literally has no idea what he’s doing.

Oh, my gosh, this is perfect. That makes *so* much more sense! I'm stealing this for my head-canon. I probably won't explicitly state it in an actual fic (mostly because I'm not planning anything set after the Call of the Primitives episode), but as far as I'm concerned, your take is what happened. RIP Primacron.

Oh, and thank you so much for linking the Rude Awakening of Optimus Prime video! I've been looking for that... not seen it for years, but it's one of the greatest TF parodies.

Velvet Glove (who can stay and guard the base)

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 5:38:02 AM UTC-6, Velvet Glove wrote:

> So you're assuming that 1985 Vector Sigma is much the same as it was in Quintesson time, 11 million years (and countless TF creations) earlier? I feel like that would be a bit of a stretch. While the Quints may indeed have put in defences in an attempt to stop others using it, I have to think that between now and then, Autobots and Decepticons would have nullified those--and then put in their own.

But, both Optimus Prime's group and Megatron's troops had to fight their way through the centurion droids, so they don't answer to Autobots or Decepticons. (Also, they're green, and a lot of Quintesson technology is green in color.)

The fact that Alpha Trion inherited guardianship of the Vector Sigma key does suggest that the Autobots secured access to the computer for themselves, but it absolutely does not explain why they need to fight their way through an army of soldiers to get to the computer if they have control over it. Of course, there's a lot of stuff on Cybertron that's so ancient that basically nobody has control over it (like the automated defenses in "Desertion of the Dinobots" as well as "Grimlock's New Brain").

> Besides that, Vector Sigma is in a very impressive chamber. It doesn't have a whole lot of features, beyond the giant floating orb, but it's a massive room and the architectural design is on a grand scale, clearly placing the focus on Vector Sigma and nothing else. I feel like the Quints either wouldn't bother with such a fancy room for what they see as an AI generator, or we could expect to see various dais (is dais both singular and plural?) for Quintessons to float upon while giving their instructions to VS.

I've been thinking about this a lot, and there could be many reasons for such a large chamber. Maybe several groups of Quintessons would bring down their creations for quick and easy personality programming, and there was a waiting queue with velvet cordons and turnstyles. Or, maybe during the height of mass-production, the Quintessons used the Vector Sigma chamber for storage for recently-programmed robots, until such time as they could find buyers and ship out the product. Or, there could be a technological reason—maybe Vector Sigma requires a room of sufficient size because it radiates energy that would melt the walls if they were too close.

> This is definitely not the direction I'm going in (trying to build up the non-Quintesson side of my head canon), but I really like it. Ever written any fanfic around this?

So, many years ago I started a "Choose Your Own Adventure" style fanfic. It was written in second-person, and YOU are the Matrix of Leadership, guiding and influencing the direction of the Transformers' destiny. I planned to cover all the major events from the cartoon, and I got about halfway finished when I got divorced and moved out. I never got to save the files locally, so I assumed it was lost. But, I discovered recently that the web site still exists, AND has all my old work on it still. So, I may yet finish it some day. When I'm not scooping the litter box and vaccuuming the lawn and mowing the carpets, that is.

This is, by the way, the story I mentioned that you had inspired me to start working on again!

> Yes, I was thinking of Scourge and that's an excellent point that it would make more sense if it's the Unicronian aspect that's corrupting rather than his Decepticon programming. Except now I'm annoyed that nothing happened to Galvatron!

It's got something to do with the chest interface, I'm sure. Galvatron just stuffed the Matrix into his arm cannon, thinking it would power up his weapon. Scourge shoved the entire thing into his chest, which I think effected a similar transformation as it did with Hot Rod. And, even though Scourge turned all ugly and lumpy, he actually *did* benefit from the power of the Matrix, and was made stronger and more deadly. So while there might have been compatibility issues, it certainly wasn't like Ultra Magnus where it just didn't do anything at all.

> Impossible science aside, it still feels a bit weird that they *never* tried to do it before. I mean, if Cybertron was in an energy famine for millions of years, you'd think somebody would be desperate enough to try it. Obviously, there's plenty of off-screen time to say that somebody did! It just didn't happen in the cartoon timeframe.

Something we haven't really touched on here is that Transformers just don't have very good long-term memories. They tend to forget things. Rumble had no memory of Vector Sigma, even though it should have been the thing that first brought him to life. Optimus Prime didn't remember that the Aerialbots went back in time and rescued him, and he didn't remember that Alpha Trion rebuilt him. Blitzwing had an only vague and fuzzy recollection of the Quintessons. Ultra Magnus couldn't remember when his birthday was. There's a lot of evidence that points to the Transformers just losing data, even about important things.

So, it's likely that most Transformers forgot that Vector Sigma existed and forgot who possessed the key to activate it. When Megatron got the idea to bring the Stunticons to life, Shockwave reminded him about the Vector Sigma key, and Megatron acted like he had no idea the key existed.

> (I quite like to think that the famine was caused by the Decepticons attempting to mess with the Plasma Energy Chamber, without a clear idea of how it worked. Though that would require a lot more thought into figuring out a personal-canon set of rules for How The Plasma Energy Chamber Works and that just seems like too much of a headache.

It's interesting to me that Vector Sigma "allowed Galvatron to learn of the key's existence," suggesting Galvatron (and by extension, the Decepticons) had no idea it was even a thing. Again, forgetting their own history.

> Oh! See, I knew I'd miss something. Is there any backstory for this *before* they used it in their space cruiser?

Nope. All we know is that it powered the ship. But, Megatron seemed to already know that it would work if he installed it in his body.

> I think *technically* Dinobots are the only ones who are created on-screen, as it were. So you *could* fudge the backstories of the others, but I agree it would be a bit of a stretch, particularly for the cassettes.

We get narration in one of the season three trailers describing how the Decepticons developed cassette technology, and how the Autobots eventually copied it. So, it depends on whether you consider Victor Caroli a reliable source of in-universe information, I suppose. The Quintessons sent the Predacons after Sky Lynx, but Sky Lynx also seemed to already have some degree of familiarity with Predaking, so you could argue it wasn't their first encounter. And, again, the Terrorcons seem to be operating as Quintesson agents before eventually joining the Decepticons, but it's possible they were merely on loan from Galvatron. There's definitely some wiggle room, especially if you need to manipulate story events for the sake of some fun fan fictions! (Sideswipe: "I don't break canon, I bend it—a lot!")

> Neither do the Allicons or Sharkticons. Do Primitives have to have Vector Sigma programming?

That's so hard to determine. The Sharkticons seem like they are almost certainly Quintesson creations. They have green eyes (so they're not Decepticon technology), and yet they can transform, an innovation that was only developed AFTER the Quintessons were booted from Cybertron. An inexplicable case of parallel development? The Quintessons spying on their creations and copying the innovation?

> Absolutely, especially since that one scene is almost certainly unintentional, an animator using the Matrix model without realising its implications--though, who knows, maybe a full script or storyboards will emerge one day detailing that this is fully intended to be the Autobot Matrix.

In some ways I *like* that it's the Matrix, because it makes you think a bit about the connection between the Matrix and Unicron, something that went completely unexplained. (I think it's the Panini brand sticker book that offers a justification for the scene that's something like, "The Matrix exists to destroy evil, and Unicron is entirely evil. It's an explanation that's simple and easy, but it doesn't explain why the Autobots couldn't have used the Matrix to wipe out all the Decepticons a long time ago. Unless the Decepticons aren't ALL evil, of course...)


Zob (TRANSFORMERS UNIVERSE says Galvatron is more evil than Megatron, therefore Megatron is not entirely evil)

[Velvet Glove]

On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 3:01:30 AM UTC+1, Zobovor wrote:

> But, both Optimus Prime's group and Megatron's troops had to fight their way through the centurion droids, so they don't answer to Autobots or Decepticons.

Am I misremembering? I thought the key controlled the droids, and Megatron literally set them against the Autobots?

> > This is definitely not the direction I'm going in (trying to build up the non-Quintesson side of my head canon), but I really like it. Ever written any fanfic around this?
> So, many years ago I started a "Choose Your Own Adventure" style fanfic. It was written in second-person, and YOU are the Matrix of Leadership, guiding and influencing the direction of the Transformers' destiny. I planned to cover all the major events from the cartoon, and I got about halfway finished when I got divorced and moved out. I never got to save the files locally, so I assumed it was lost. But, I discovered recently that the web site still exists, AND has all my old work on it still. So, I may yet finish it some day. When I'm not scooping the litter box and vaccuuming the lawn and mowing the carpets, that is.

Household stuff is the worst, huh? I spend far too much time worldbuilding and planning epic stories that I am absolutely never going to have time to write. But the planning's fun in its own way.

I've never tried doing a Choose Your Own Adventure thing, and the concept of actually being the Matrix guiding TFs through the cartoon sounds really cool. If you ever do finish it, I'd love to see it.

> This is, by the way, the story I mentioned that you had inspired me to start working on again!

Ahah! Then it has all been worthwhile! No, really. I'd love to see more fic around here, and even if you don't get it to a post-able stage, any time indulging in creativity is generally A Good Thing.

> It's got something to do with the chest interface, I'm sure. Galvatron just stuffed the Matrix into his arm cannon, thinking it would power up his weapon. Scourge shoved the entire thing into his chest, which I think effected a similar transformation as it did with Hot Rod. And, even though Scourge turned all ugly and lumpy, he actually *did* benefit from the power of the Matrix, and was made stronger and more deadly. So while there might have been compatibility issues, it certainly wasn't like Ultra Magnus where it just didn't do anything at all.

Good. Makes sense. Illogic overload averted.

> Something we haven't really touched on here is that Transformers just don't have very good long-term memories. They tend to forget things. Rumble had no memory of Vector Sigma, even though it should have been the thing that first brought him to life. Optimus Prime didn't remember that the Aerialbots went back in time and rescued him, and he didn't remember that Alpha Trion rebuilt him. Blitzwing had an only vague and fuzzy recollection of the Quintessons. Ultra Magnus couldn't remember when his birthday was. There's a lot of evidence that points to the Transformers just losing data, even about important things.
>
> So, it's likely that most Transformers forgot that Vector Sigma existed and forgot who possessed the key to activate it. When Megatron got the idea to bring the Stunticons to life, Shockwave reminded him about the Vector Sigma key, and Megatron acted like he had no idea the key existed.

Eh. I hate the thing where transformers just randomly forget stuff that they should have known (especially when some of it, like Optimus Prime forgetting Alpha Trion rebuilt him, is just episode inconsistency), it feels so lazy and contrived. You're right though that it happens often enough that we should have it as a thing, and you can even give a reasonable explanation for it--presumably nobody ever expected TFs to live for 9 million years (and more!). But it does come back to the fact that when they do randomly forget stuff, it's so the episode can have a lazy excuse for exposition or an even lazier climactic revelation. I hate having to fudge stuff to account for lazy plot.

Optimus forgetting the Aerialbots is an easier one to explain, since he met them very briefly and thought they died--possibly never even knew their names. It's understandable that he didn't immediately make the connection when he met them again nine million years later, *until* they travelled back in time. I always think that's a really understatedly sweet moment... All these years he's believed them dead, and suddenly he finds out the truth. A belated happy ending.

> > Oh! See, I knew I'd miss something. Is there any backstory for this *before* they used it in their space cruiser?
> Nope. All we know is that it powered the ship. But, Megatron seemed to already know that it would work if he installed it in his body.

Ugh. Episode McGuffins are the *worst*.

> We get narration in one of the season three trailers describing how the Decepticons developed cassette technology, and how the Autobots eventually copied it. So, it depends on whether you consider Victor Caroli a reliable source of in-universe information, I suppose. The Quintessons sent the Predacons after Sky Lynx, but Sky Lynx also seemed to already have some degree of familiarity with Predaking, so you could argue it wasn't their first encounter. And, again, the Terrorcons seem to be operating as Quintesson agents before eventually joining the Decepticons, but it's possible they were merely on loan from Galvatron. There's definitely some wiggle room, especially if you need to manipulate story events for the sake of some fun fan fictions! (Sideswipe: "I don't break canon, I bend it—a lot!")

Arguably, you could say that the Autobots and Decepticons only built the humanoid cassettes and the animal ones were created elsewhere, but it would be a major stretch. I've also remembered that while we don't have backstory for Sky Lynx, he was among the TFs frozen by the Quintesson switch, which pretty much means he has to be created in one of the 'standard' ways.

> > Neither do the Allicons or Sharkticons. Do Primitives have to have Vector Sigma programming?
> That's so hard to determine. The Sharkticons seem like they are almost certainly Quintesson creations. They have green eyes (so they're not Decepticon technology), and yet they can transform, an innovation that was only developed AFTER the Quintessons were booted from Cybertron. An inexplicable case of parallel development? The Quintessons spying on their creations and copying the innovation?

We know the Quintessons were spying on their creations since they knew Kup wasn't actually Cybertron's chief dishwasher. Or maybe they learned the technique from somebody crashing on Quintessa (E.g. Wheelie's crew) You don't need too much handwaving to come up with a plausible excuse for that.

> > Absolutely, especially since that one scene is almost certainly unintentional, an animator using the Matrix model without realising its implications--though, who knows, maybe a full script or storyboards will emerge one day detailing that this is fully intended to be the Autobot Matrix.
> In some ways I *like* that it's the Matrix, because it makes you think a bit about the connection between the Matrix and Unicron, something that went completely unexplained. (I think it's the Panini brand sticker book that offers a justification for the scene that's something like, "The Matrix exists to destroy evil, and Unicron is entirely evil. It's an explanation that's simple and easy, but it doesn't explain why the Autobots couldn't have used the Matrix to wipe out all the Decepticons a long time ago. Unless the Decepticons aren't ALL evil, of course...)

I dislike a good/evil binary, so I'm with you on having a connection between the Matrix and Unicron. If it didn't help create answers to questions, I'd happily write it off as animation randomness.

Velvet Glove (But Brawn is most definitely dead.)