okay,so 95% of the TF fandom hates the micheal bay TF movies. what exactly do you hate & what would you change?
TigerMegatron
exactly do you hate & what would you change?
my 2 cents:
get rid of sam,mikelea,sam parents & have the humans star core cast
consist of the army guys.
get rid of all tiny micro transformers & idiot/useless transformers
like the twins,frenzy,appliance bots,insectbots,bumblebee & wheelie.
get rid of the stupid humor,have it be a more serious war like movie
like the latest terminator movie.
more bigger,stronger & popular Transformer characters. like ultra
magnus,dinobots,predaking,shockwave,tidalwave,rodimus prime,galvatron,
cyclonus,scourge,springer,tripple changers,Gnaw
get rid of the retard writters because they don't have a clue. can't
write a decent TF story & so forth.
Zobovor
> get rid of all tiny micro transformers & idiot/useless transformers
> like the twins,frenzy,appliance bots,insectbots,bumblebee & wheelie.
Aww, I like the appliance robots. I was trying to figure out just how
many of them there actually were the other day. It looks like the
Allspark fragment brought to life a coffee maker, a blender, a vaccuum
cleaner, a garbage disposal, a wall clock, a microwave, and of course
the toaster. Is that only seven? It seems like there were more. (I
don't count the waffle iron that was "attacking" Judy Witwicky because
I honestly don't think it was alive. The woman is just certifiably
insane.)
Also, I noticed for the first time while watching the DVD that one of
the appliance robots (the coffee maker, I think) has a penis gun. I'm
serious. I bet Michael Bay had a good giggle fit behind that one,
too.
> more bigger,stronger & popular Transformer characters. like ultra
> magnus,dinobots,predaking,shockwave,tidalwave,rodimus prime,galvatron,
> cyclonus,scourge,springer,tripple changers,Gnaw
The most popular Transformers characters are guys like Optimus Prime
and Bumblebee and Megatron and Starscream. Ask the average casual-fan-
off-the-street and most people would probably have absolutely no clue
who Tidal Wave or Gnaw are.
Zob
Thunder Strikes Twice!
t.k.
Travoltron
> okay,so 95% of the TF fandom hates the micheal bay TF movies.
Do they? I mean, I'd love to believe that was true.
But I remember after the 2007 movie came out, a guy on one of those
boards stated that the 1986 movie was superior and he was mocked and
greeted with snarky comments like, "Ah ha ha ha. Oh wait, you were
serious."
I still regret not defending that guy, because I really agreed with him.
Onslaught Six
> Ask the average casual-fan-
> off-the-street and most people would probably have absolutely no clue
> who Tidal Wave or Gnaw are.
Tidal Wave!
...Sorry, I'm obligated now. My song has become a local meme.
Gustavo Wombat
> On Nov 24, 10:01 am, TigerMegatron <TigerMegat...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > get rid of all tiny micro transformers & idiot/useless transformers
> > like the twins,frenzy,appliance bots,insectbots,bumblebee & wheelie.
>
> Aww, I like the appliance robots. I was trying to figure out just how
> many of them there actually were the other day. It looks like the
> Allspark fragment brought to life a coffee maker, a blender, a vaccuum
> cleaner, a garbage disposal, a wall clock, a microwave, and of course
> the toaster. Is that only seven? It seems like there were more. (I
> don't count the waffle iron that was "attacking" Judy Witwicky because
> I honestly don't think it was alive. The woman is just certifiably
> insane.)
>
> Also, I noticed for the first time while watching the DVD that one of
> the appliance robots (the coffee maker, I think) has a penis gun. I'm
> serious. I bet Michael Bay had a good giggle fit behind that one,
> too.
Mr. Coffeebot should have urinated on someone, spraying them with hot
coffee. That would have made a great movie.
Gustavo!
Zobovor
> Mr. Coffeebot should have urinated on someone, spraying them with hot
> coffee.
And then they could sue McDonald's!
Zob
Kil - Michael McCarthy
news:374d9e88-e8f4-497a...@l35g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> okay,so 95% of the TF fandom hates the micheal bay TF movies.
I find your cited statistic to be highly dubious, sir.
-Kil
Velvet Glove
Did you know, that 88.5% of statistics are made up on the spot? [/Vic
Reeves]
What about those of us who liked the first movie but thought the
second was terrible? And a pretty good number of fans liked both.
I also find it interesting that since the Michael Bay movies come out,
the 1986 movie seems to have become a better film. I certainly like
it better than the others, but that's because it fits into the
universe that I'm a fan of, and that stems at least as much from all
the other associated G1 paraphernalia as the film alone. Critically
speaking, it's still a complete mess of a film. I couldn't say if
it's better than the Bay Movies, since I've only watched them once
each, and haven't troubled myself to analyse them in depth, whereas
the original film I've made a really thorough study of because I wrote
an essay on it once. Any comparison I make would be somewhat
unbalanced.
I will say the conclusion I reached in the G1 movie essay will
probably apply to the Bay movies 15 years down the road too. "It
added an immense crop of new elements to the Transformers mythos, and
while fans may differ over which of those are beneficial, few would
prefer that none of them had ever existed." In many ways, as far as
the fandom or the universe goes, it doesn't matter whether the movie
is actually any good. We'll all pick out what we liked about it, add
it to our personal TF universe, and move on, leaving the dross behind.
Velvet Glove (but, given the choice, the first thing I'd take out of
the Bay movies is about 75% of the explosions)
ahsan.sa...@gmail.com
these boards seem to have problems with the movies, the second one
more than the first. But that's because we're fans, and we're supposed
to be overly critical about things involving our childhood.
Things were better then! *grumble* Young whippersnappers *grumble*
Didn't the latest Terminator movie bomb? Or was it just ridiculed?
Whichever, I never got around to watching it (though, to be fair, I'd
only skimmed through T3).
Less explosions, yes, that would be good, and more story, maybe? I
wouldn't mind if they left out Sam altogether, and focussed on the
military folks, they were certainly more likeable.
Yeah, that's all I got.
Zobovor
<ahsan.salahud...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know about 95% of the fandom, but a lot of people who're on
> these boards seem to have problems with the movies, the second one
> more than the first.
That's really the part that I find so odd. The second movie had
*more* robots than the first. It had *bigger* robots like
Devastator! It had female Autobots! It had combiners! The fight
scenes were choreographed better so you could actually follow the
action! Starscream and Megatron had more dialogue! It had
Soundwave! It had FRANK WELKER doing Soundwave!
It's still a little too soon for me to be objective about the second
movie, so I can't say whether it's intrinsically as good as the first
or not, but on paper it certainly *seems* like it should have been
better.
> Didn't the latest Terminator movie bomb? Or was it just ridiculed?
> Whichever, I never got around to watching it (though, to be fair, I'd
> only skimmed through T3).
I haven't seen Terminator: Salvation but I liked Rise of the
Machines. It sort of turned things on its proverbial ear and wasn't
afraid to go in new directions. I found myself caring about the
characters and their predicament, which I think should be one of the
prerequisites of any movie. (Did anyone even care when Optimus Prime
"died" in Revenge of the Fallen? Did anybody seriously think he was
down for the count?)
Zob
Velvet Glove
> That's really the part that I find so odd. The second movie had
> *more* robots than the first. It had *bigger* robots like
> Devastator! It had female Autobots! It had combiners! The fight
> scenes were choreographed better so you could actually follow the
> action! Starscream and Megatron had more dialogue! It had
> Soundwave! It had FRANK WELKER doing Soundwave!
It had no cohesive story!
Seriously, the first movie had way too many subplots, but apart from
that it hung together fairly well and felt balanced. Yes, it was
focused more on the humans and didn't have a lot of the things that
made us fans of Transformers in the first place, but it was a passable
piece of popcorn entertainment.
The second movie threw in a bunch more things that the fans wanted to
see, but in place of a story, we had setpiece after setpiece strung
together with jokes. Mostly obnoxious jokes. Mostly obnoxious
setpieces too.
Velvet Glove (it appears we cannot have what we wish for and a good
film to boot).
Thunder Strikes Twice!
> I haven't seen Terminator: Salvation
I saw it and liked it because it was about the future war and not more
of the same
"let's-send-a-robot-back-to-kill-him-at-some-point-in-his-life" story.
It wasn't the greatest movie ever either but decent for what it was (imo).
t.k.
Optim_1
> On Nov 25, 1:29 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > That's really the part that I find so odd. The second movie had
> > *more* robots than the first. It had *bigger* robots like
> > Devastator! It had female Autobots! It had combiners! The fight
> > scenes were choreographed better so you could actually follow the
> > action! Starscream and Megatron had more dialogue! It had
> > Soundwave! It had FRANK WELKER doing Soundwave!
>
> It had no cohesive story!
>
And the main plot was dumb. It was all about stopping a Decepticon
from eating a sun. Doesn't energon cubes suffice? I could accept the
simplistic plot of searching for a life-giving treasure in the first
movie and roll with it. This inane plot of the second movie, however,
is so wacky and uninspired.
TigerMegatron
WHY? Because the 1st TF movie had a higher intended viewer age. While
the 2nd ROTF Movie had a much lower intended viewer age. Way too many
kiddie jokes,humor,weak ass tiny robots,silly humans in Rotf ruined
the movie. hearing sam whine like a baby & call bumblebee when the
appliance bots were attacking still turns my stomach.
the 1st TF1/2007 movie was far more serious. the bad robots were tough
& ruthless. the autobots were strong & powerful. The humans were more
serious. tiny weak ass funny robots didn't dominate entire scenes.
For the most part,micheal bay put all those tiny weak ass funny bots &
silly humans in the ROTF movie to make it rated G kid friendly.
micheal sucks because he purposely ruins a movie to grab more money &
all viewers of all ages.
Gustavo Wombat
Kid friendly?
Oh, you must mean the humping dogs. And Wheelie humping Mikaela's leg.
And Sam's mom bizarre pot rage and shouting about Sam losing his
virginity. And the penis jokes in the torture scene. And the twins.
And heads being torn apart. And Alice pouncing on Sam and thrusting
her tongue down his throat. And Leo's lines being mostly about his
testicles. And, lest you forget them, the humping dogs.
Yeah, kids love that shit. It's why the Lion King has all the scenes
of humping hyenas.
Gustavo!
Optim_1
Not to mention that Transformers are marketed to kids, so their movies
SHOULD be kid friendly. The two movies are far from kid-friendly. The
only thing that would make them worse in kid-friendly would be to show
gore and gratuitious human deaths.
William Rendfeld
the fandom hates the Bay-directed films. Many were reasonably
accepting of the first one, and several that I've spoken to had
legitimate reasons to dislike the second one, but I doubt the vast
majority outright hated both.
Of course, I have no doubt you're an idiot, but that's another
matter.
You want to get rid of Sam and his related characters? Fine, but what
audience can identify with a total human cast consisting of soldiers
and politicians and whatnot? Sam and his family ground us into
something approaching normalcy - he's an average guy...who,
admittedly, has a hot girlfriend and drives around in a robot that
turns into an expensive car. Have the parents take a back seat in a
future film, yes, but keep Sam and Mikaela.
Bumblebee was neither useless nor an idiot - anyone with that much
firepower and that much skill at using it properly could even begin to
count. Wheelie, similarly, wasn't useless - he led Sam and co. to
Jetfire, after all - and wasn't an idiot. Frenzy also wasn't useless -
he led the Decepticons to the Allspark, he pointed them in Sam's
direction, he killed several people on Air Force One and at Hoover
Dam. If you call all that useless, then you clearly have
unrealistically high standards. The appliancebots and the Twins could
probably be dropped without missing much, but the rest can and should
stay.
Get rid of the stupid humor? By that, I assume you mean stuff like the
humping bits - that can be dropped. If you mean stuff like Epps'
"Don't tempt me" line, or Galloway being ejected from the plane, or
some of Sam's outbursts, then those weren't stupid. And while some of
Judy's antics were annoying, they were at least in part amusing. And
if it was just a "war" movie, with people getting shot at and killed
in every direction, it wouldn't be entertaining or interesting - it'd
be depressing, and depressing may or may not get critical acclaim but
it definitely doesn't equal box office success.
More bigger, stronger and popular Transformers characters? We got
Devastator! He fits all three of those criteria! We got a triple
changer too with Mixmaster - his toy has three modes, he used all
three in the film, he counts, damnit! And as cool as having characters
like Ultra Magnus or Galvatron would be, do we need them in the film?
We have Optimus! We have Megatron! And compared to Optimus, Megatron
and Devastator, the other characters you listed as 'bigger, stronger
and popular' Transformers are, outside of the main fandom, relatively
obscure. Especially Gnaw.
And given you don't know how to write (or proofread) a simple internet
post, I doubt you can adequately declare someone to be capable of
writing a decent story, TF or otherwise, or call them a "retard".
Were I given the chance to produce my own version of the two films,
I'd leave the first film alone. As for the second one - I'd include
more scenes with the 'Bots, and have some footage of them interacting
with their human allies in NEST. I'd elaborate on why Ratchet wasn't
present at the battle in Shanghai, have some introductory scene for
Jolt. I'd have Wheelie stay with Sam's group, rather than randomly
disappear once they reached the pyramids, or otherwise explain why he
stayed behind (perhaps to rendezvous with Lennox's team once they
arrived). I might drop the appliancebots, but between them
reestablishing the power of the Allspark and Bay's claim that they
keep the kiddies entertained, I figure they have a reason to stay. The
humping bits, however, have to go - just have Frankie and Mojo sit
around barking at stuff and have Wheelie hugging (as in wrapping his
arms around and holding tight) Mikaela's leg instead. I'd expand on
Jetfire's exposition, have him clearly explain that the Allspark's
power was finite, and the only means they had to properly recharge it
was to drain power from a star. I'd keep in the scene that reveals the
animatronic Alice, as well as the one where she's named and introduces
herself to Sam. I'd have the Arcee trio with the 'Bots as they're
rushing off to rescue Sam, and give them more screen time, at least
enough to establish characterization - same with Sideswipe and Jolt.
I'd include some brief snippet between Jetfire's death and Optimus
being armored up, something like...
Jolt: He...he just snuffed out his own spark...
Optimus: (looks towards the pyramid's tip) Jetfire died so that this
world may live - we cannot allow his sacrifice to be in vain!
Ratchet: Then stand back and let me do my job - Jolt, electrify!
...I'd also elaborate on the end - the novel has the Matrix in
Optimus' possession following the battle, and I'd want to keep that
and explain that the Allspark's power/knowledge/whatever had been
transferred to it. I'd also want some clarification on everything else
- are the Arcee sisters dead? Where did Skids and Mudflap go? Was
Galloway found, and is he pissed about being chucked out of an
airplane over Northern Africa?
...you know, thinking things over, all the problems I had could be
solved with better editing.
ahsan.sa...@gmail.com
----LOTS OF STUFF---------------
Echowarrior!
Gee, I didn't know he was still around.
William Rendfeld
I've all but retired the character, but I'm still around and active.
I'm not here as much as I used to be - blame Deathy for that - but I'm
quite vocal over at the Allspark, and I'm still writing and submitting
Transformers fanfiction, both at fanfiction.net and at my page on
DeviantArt.
Just because you don't catch sight of me doesn't mean I'm gone. It
just means I'm hiding, or have nothing relevant to say.
Thunder Strikes Twice!
> Get rid of the stupid humor? By that, I assume you mean stuff like the
> humping bits - that can be dropped. If you mean stuff like Epps'
> "Don't tempt me" line, or Galloway being ejected from the plane, or
> some of Sam's outbursts, then those weren't stupid.
I did like a few of the human bits. Epps line; the thing about the smoke
bomb near the end and also when Galloway pulls his chute too early...
more humor like that (and less with dogs humping, robo-balls, etc.)
would have made for a better movie.
t.k.
Cornholio
Personally I like the 1986 film better also but then again it came out
when I was 8 and the optimus prime death scene had a huge impact on me
at that age. As for the newer movies they're okay I certainly don't hate
them. If I were in charge of the movies I would've given them a much
more G1ish appearances with newer vehicle modes ala alternators. I
would've kept sam and his family in the movie but nixed almost all of
the other human characters and given the transformers a lot more
dialouge and character development. I'd rate the 1986 film as a
transformers story very highly, and the newer movies are more consistent
movies for non-tf fans but weaker tf stories IMO.
HooveR
movies is the butt-ugly insectoid pile of scrap metal character
designs. I just can't stand them. They were mostly worse in the first
movie, but still, those robot faces are horrid and do not inspire me
to like a character. The G1 style faces were far more "likeable" to
me. I want to watch a movie about things that look like robots, not
giant grey turds. A look at G1 Bumblebee's toon face endears me to the
character. A look at Bumblebay's face makes me want to run screaming.
And of course, that says nothing about the actual CONTENT of the
films, where they didn't exactly win any points either. The juvenile
jokes had no place in there. Devestator with balls. I MEAN REALLY.
I'd say only about 50% of fandom, well, more if you count ACTUAL
HARDCORE FANDOM, hates the Bay movies. I'm in that category. Those of
you who appreciate them, I'm not here to bash you or say you have
horrible taste. I'm glad SOME people got some use and enjoyment out of
a movie that cost as much as it would've taken to end world hunger
(exaggeration). It's just not for me. And saves me a looooootttt of
money on toys this year, so, accentuate the positive, I say.
--HooveR
TigerMegatron
for that."
I don't like to rehash the past. I forgive & forget 95% of the stuff
that happens on ATT.
lets all try to forgive & forget because every ATTer is missed &
needed here when they leave.
Travoltron
> Just wanted to pipe in. Most of the reason I can't stand the Bay
> movies is the butt-ugly insectoid pile of scrap metal character
> designs.
I think that may be my main gripe as well. I was fully expecting
Hollywood to mangle the story. I was expecting celebrity voices for the
TFs (which was thankfully avoided for the most part), but never in my
wildest dreams did I imagine they would change the way Transformers
LOOKED! Nobody (to my knowledge) ever complained about the Has-Tak
"look" of the Transformers, pre-2007. Why would they "fix" what wasn't
broken?
I also didn't expect the American Pie style humor, but that's another rant.
HooveR
>Why would they "fix" what wasn't broken?
Hollywood has been doing this since their first adaptation, sadly. :(
Ka Faraq Gatri
<dece...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>At minimum, get rid of Michael Bay. Ideally, ditch Bay and the writers.
>
WHatever it takes for TFs to get the intelligence and respect for
the source material that Star Trek got. Now there's a great movie
reinvention of a classic property. It's not too late to inject some
intelligence into the third movie.
Thunder Strikes Twice!
> WHatever it takes for TFs to get the intelligence and respect for
> the source material that Star Trek got.
Ironically, both movies had the exact same writers (well, Orci and
Kurtzman anyway).
>Now there's a great movie reinvention of a classic property.
Meh. I know a lot of people liked the new ST but I wasn't crazy on it.
Regardless, some new blood on the TF movies might be nice and give it a
shot in the arm.
t.k.
Ka Faraq Gatri
<dece...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>Ka Faraq Gatri wrote:
>> WHatever it takes for TFs to get the intelligence and respect for
>> the source material that Star Trek got.
>
>Ironically, both movies had the exact same writers (well, Orci and
>Kurtzman anyway).
Which shows they actually can do good work when allowed to. Reminds me
of how Skir & Eisenberg were horrible on Beast Machines, but turned
Godzilla `98 into something actually good in the cartoon.
>
>>Now there's a great movie reinvention of a classic property.
>
>Meh. I know a lot of people liked the new ST but I wasn't crazy on it.
>Regardless, some new blood on the TF movies might be nice and give it a
>shot in the arm.
Replace Bay and maybe Megan, and make sure the new direction
includes a good story and no humping dogs.
Thunder Strikes Twice!
> Which shows they actually can do good work when allowed to. Reminds me
> Godzilla `98 into something actually good in the cartoon.
And Isenberg was on Animated too. (I was at BC08 and it was funny
because some of the people in the audience didn't seem to know that
until it was brought up by somebody else).
t.k.
TigerMegatron
it was funny because some of the people in the audience didn't seem to
know that until it was brought up bysomebody else)."
I was aware of that. That's why the over-all TF animated story+arcs
were so simplistic & aimed at a toddler viewer age level. that's also
why the over-all TF animated toy+cartoon designs were so distorted in
the limbs,body parts similar to the BM maximals toys+cartoon designs.
Apparently marty isenberg likes to ruin stuff but then hides in the
corner & lets someone else deal with the negative feedback.
Velvet Glove
I watched the new Star Trek film the other night. The plot was silly
and a little contrived in parts (trying to get the whole gang
together, when most of them really didn't have anything to do), but it
was fun and made for a pretty good movie experience. I don't consider
myself a fan of the original series of course, although I have a soft
spot for Next Generation. But it does stand as an example of what I
like about the writing team. They're *fun*.
I think that the thing for me with the TF Movies is that I don't go
into them hoping for a new TF continuity to be a fan of. There are a
lot of TF continuities that I don't pay any attention to, and it's
easy enough to assume that the Movies will be likewise. So while I
like to see all the little TF nods and references (and sometimes
that's all the TF aspect feels like), I kind of view them as Easter
Eggs rather than the point of the film. As stand-alone entertainment,
I enjoyed the first film hugely, while the second one irritated me
beyond belief. It had nothing to do with the Transformers aspect (as
Zob pointed out, technically the second film performs better in that
regard). The G1 film, on the other hand, is squarely set in a
universe that I have made a 'commitment' to, fan-wise, so I look at it
in a completely different way.
Velvet Glove (who, ultimately, goes to see the TF movies because she
likes seeing movies; similarly, I pay little attention to the TF
comics, because I've never got on with reading comics in general. Of
course, I've never read a TF novel, so my analogy falls down there....)
William Rendfeld
...were we watching the same show? Do you have any understanding of
how TV even works?
Neither Animated nor Beast Machines were "simplistic" or "aimed at a
toddler viewer age level". Hell, any show that gives us a supposed
"hero" like Sentinel Prime or stories like "Thrill of the Hunt"
clearly isn't aimed specifically at toddlers - there's a story there
for young children (like, eight or so) to enjoy, but lots of subtle
stuff for older fans to enjoy.
Also, the writers have no say over the art style. Isenberg and Skir
weren't producing BM - they were just story-editing, and in some cases
writing. Isenberg, again, didn't produce Animated, he just wrote a few
episodes and served as story editor. You want to blame someone for
what you consider to be a bad story, blame the writer (and the
executives) - you want to blame someone for what you consider to be
bad artwork, blame the character designers and animators (and the
executives). And with the exception of CGI programs, the simpler a
design is, the easier it is to draw (and redraw) over and over - say
what you will, Animated had some incredibly fluid animation at points
(see "Nanosec").
And I doubt Isenberg is anything like how you perceive him to be. Skir
was the one directly talking to the fandom with BM, and Wyatt was
doing similar duties with Animated. Skir got the brunt of the fan
hatred for BM, whether it was justified or not. Wyatt, on the other
hand, was not only on a show that most folks were enjoying, but he was
also one of us. Isenberg gave interviews about both shows, and while
he isn't quite as interactive with the fandom as the other two fellows
are, we're probably better off - he's a busy guy, and I'd rather he be
doing his job than responding to every fan comment or
complaint...especially if the complaints just don't make sense.
Gustavo Wombat
> On Nov 29, 5:01 am, TigerMegatron <TigerMegat...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Thunder wrote: "And Isenberg was on Animated too. (I was at BC08 and
>
> > it was funny because some of the people in the audience didn't seem to
> > know that until it was brought up bysomebody else)."
>
> > I was aware of that. That's why the over-all TF animated story+arcs
> > were so simplistic & aimed at a toddler viewer age level. that's also
> > why the over-all TF animated toy+cartoon designs were so distorted in
> > the limbs,body parts similar to the BM maximals toys+cartoon designs.
>
> > Apparently marty isenberg likes to ruin stuff but then hides in the
> > corner & lets someone else deal with the negative feedback.
>
> ...were we watching the same show? Do you have any understanding of
> how TV even works?
>
> Neither Animated nor Beast Machines were "simplistic" or "aimed at a
> toddler viewer age level". Hell, any show that gives us a supposed
> "hero" like Sentinel Prime or stories like "Thrill of the Hunt"
> clearly isn't aimed specifically at toddlers - there's a story there
> for young children (like, eight or so) to enjoy, but lots of subtle
> stuff for older fans to enjoy.
Remember, when Deathy says "kiddie", he doesn't mean aimed at a
younger audience, it is just his preferred generic negative adjective.
If it is not graphic violence or pornography, it is "kiddie".
Complicated story telling, character development, stories about regret
and loss -- "kiddie".
The main themes of Animated are very "adult" -- or at least very
sophisticated and real, and make more sense to an older, more mature
mindset. All of the main cast of Autobots (with the exception of
Bulkhead) are dealing with the consequences of their past actions and
failings. Optimus has Elita-1/Blackarachnia, Ratchet has Arcee and
Omega Supreme, Prowl has his Sensei and the protoforms, Bumblebee has
Wasp, and much of the story is about how people deal with this (or, in
the case of Bumblebee, don't).
This is way more mature than tearing someone's arm off and beating
them with it, but since Deathy doesn't like it or get it, it is
"kiddie".
But, Animated is also really an excellent story for younger children
-- my friend's 5 year old twins love it, and watch episodes over and
over and over again, and plots and main story elements are told
clearly enough that they can very happily follow it from the
beginning. And, after repeated viewings, a lot of the emotional
underpinnings of the show begin to sink in, and the twins begin to
understand not just what happened, but why it happened and why
characters act the way they do.
All of the elements that are supposedly there for the adults are right
there for the children, and even very young children are able to pick
up on it. They have to watch it many times, but kids that age do that
anyway.
Gustavo!
Thunder Strikes Twice!
> All of the elements that are supposedly there for the adults are right
> there for the children, and even very young children are able to pick
> up on it. They have to watch it many times, but kids that age do that
> anyway.
I think the best stories can appeal to audiences of all ages (like the
original Star Wars, for example).
t.k.
TigerMegatron
Why I thought Animated was aimed at a toddler age.
but here goes:
after the Generation 1 cartoon series. the only "other" TF series that
was actually aimed at a higher age level was the year 2005 TF
Cybertron cartoon series. the series really took itself serious in
the plot,fight scenes,human cast & over attitude/personas.
TF Animated was the everything aimed at viewer age level. like those
God awful micheal bay TF movies.
Things I found kiddie about the TF animated cartoon series:
(1) having the cybertrons afraid of the humans was a bad spin off from
that futerama episode.
it was obviously meant to be a nod towards that futerama episode. the
cybertrons emotions on being afraid of the humans was done in a very
kiddie under 3 year old manner/mentality.
(2) there was nothing unique about the sentinel prime persona. he
kinda reminded me of the "tick" from the cartoon series/comics. that
superfiscial persona he portrayed has been played out to the 100th
+level.
(3) the 2 decepticons blitzwing & lugnuts were the typical comedy evil
duo. who can't function on there own with constant supervision. these
were obviously the toddler comedy relief.
(4) bumblebee was the TF persona evuivelant of sponge bob square
pants. it was a character persona meant to draw in the toddler viewer
age level.
(5)the human cast all acted liked micheal jackson man-childs. there
were no hints even of adulted brain activity. minus the professor
sundac & the chief of police who showed some sort of adult themed
behavior.
(6) the TF animated episodes had simplistic plots. first season was
collecting the allspark fragments. second season was megatron taking
back his command & creating that space bridge at the very last minute.
3rd season was wrapping up loose ends & taking prisoners back to
cybertron. the series had a very BM story arc theme feel to it.
(6a) the year 2005 cybertron series was highest aimed TF series.
because it involved constant watch of all 52 episodes to get the over
all plot/arc. there were no stand alone episodes. every cybertron
series episodes was directly tied into the plot & continued into the
next episode.
having plot driven episodes requires a higher age level. having all
stand alone episodes requires a much lower age level. because it's
simply easier for the toddlers to watch stand alone episodes. due to
the fact that most kids under 10 years age old have a attention span
of a peanut. for a kid to actually follow a series & watch all the
episodes,without spacing out or losing interest usually requires a
higher age level developement of the brain.
(7) a majority of all the episodes were stand alone episodes that
seemed to function without a series plot/arc. so much time was wasted
playing games & learning kiddie type lessons of maturity.
(8)sari acted more kiddie than any other kid in any TF series in
creation. she had a IQ of a 2 year old. had a hard time balancing/
controlling her emotions.
(9) the over all TF animated toy line had a definate toddler friendly
feel to it. it's plainly obvious previous TF toy lines had higher
adult themed sculpt & detail. very few TF animated toys had a higher
adult theme sculpt/design. oddly enough those TF Animated toys that
drifted from the Animated toy formula were the best of the line.
(9a)examples of great animated toys: leader megatron,voyager
megatron,voyager skywarp,
shockwave,both deluxe dinobots,the bounty hunter
decepticon,oilslick,blackarachia. blurr,waspinator,wreckgar. basic
sized earth mode megatron who managed to look more sleek & more than
the leader sized version.
HooveR
crap any day of the week, and I'm 33 years old.
To each their own.
TigerMegatron
"adult" Michael Bay crap any day of the week, and I'm 33 years old."
Both TF animated & those 2 micheal bay TF movies are in the same
league of the "all viewer ages" god awfulness crap.
William Rendfeld
Because Deathy is an idiot. Because he's an ass. And because I don't
believe in handing out forgiveness like a free sample of shampoo. Had
it been me in Greenboy's place a couple years ago, there would have
been legal action - I believe in punishment, in retribution, in
earning forgiveness.
And yet, I'm responding. What the hell is wrong with me?
As for your arguments about Animated.
1. To a Cybertronian in Animated, any organic being (human, space
barnacle, giant spider, whatever) is alien, and in the case of the
specific latter two, very dangerous. They've got reasons to stay away
from squishies, even if that xenophobia is taken to a slightly
ridiculous extreme (and one that may well be addressed, given Sari). I
doubt it was a Futurama nod, and I really don't care if it was.
2. Sentinel Prime may not be unique in general, but he was unique to
Transformers in that he was a speciest, xenophobic jerk who treated
his troops like dirt and blamed everyone else for his own failures
while taking credit for their successes. Even in those cases where he
should have learned a lesson (encountering the Dinobots, getting his
head chopped off, fighting Starscream, discovering what happened to
Blackarachnia, the whole mess in "Decepticon Air" and "This Is Why I
Hate Machines"), he's clearly learned nothing. He's a jerk, plain and
simple.
3. Blitzwing and Lugnut, unable to work without supervision? They did
quite well a lot of the time, I think. And personally, I found them
hilarious and dangerous. Slag, Lugnut's a zealot with arm-mounted
Really Big Bombs - if that doesn't count as dangerous, I don't know
what does.
4. Of course Bumblebee's the kid identification character - the
original Bumblebee was the kid identification character until Wheelie
came along. You want them to buck tradition?
5. "Michael Jackson Man-childs"? You excluded Prof. Sumdac and Capt.
Fanzone, thankfully, but you still exaggerate. Did we see any of the
human characters living in a huge mansion, doing childish things,
spending way too much time around little kids? With the possible
exception of Prof. Princess, none of the human characters were "man-
childs" as you call them...especially not Slo-Mo, Mayor Edsel, Porter
C. Powell, or the Mayor's aid.
6. Again, you show little knowledge of how storytelling works, and
little memory of the series. You know what prime time television
program is the highest rated right now? "NCIS". You know what
storytelling style it has? Mostly stand-alones, with a few arcs here
and there. And that's the ideal - a viewer can jump in and watch the
program at potentially any point, quickly figure things out, and not
feel lost. The only reason we don't get that with a lot of anime,
particularly Cybertron, is that so little actually happens - we had
how many episodes of races on the Speed Planet?
With Animated, meanwhile, we got a much better balance. The first
season was mostly Megatron trying to rebuild himself and restore his
strength, with half the season's plots (him taking over the Autobot
base, the creation of the Dinobots and Soundwave, Nanosec and so on)
devoted to that, and some plots even spinning out of that thread (such
as Meltdown controlling the Dinobots). A viewer didn't need to watch
every episode to figure out what was going on, and that was an asset.
Same deal with the second season, as both sides were dealing with the
dispersal of the Allspark throughout Detroit and its surrounding area,
either retrieving its fragments or dealing with the Transformers given
life by them, with Megatron's plan to conquer Cybertron via a space
bridge a looming threat throughout. And yes, the third season was
mostly about tying up loose ends...but there was no guarantee that
they'd get a fourth season (and they didn't), and what sane man wants
loose threads in their story?
7. See above. And personally, I like kids being told that war isn't
glorious, that you should use your abilities responsibly, that real
friends are hard to come by, and that heroes aren't just built to be
heroes. It's certainly better than being told that "guns are evil
because they hurt people".
8. Do you spend any time around young children? They aren't that
smart, and there are a lot of adults who have difficulty controlling
their emotions. Also, Sari was definitely one of the younger human
kids running around in Western-produced fiction (8 by the end of the
first season, 9-10 chronologically and 16-17 biologically), but she
didn't have a two-year-old's IQ. Hell, the fact that she could form
complete sentences is proof of that. And granted, she did mess up at
times...but come on, she's a little kid! THEY DO THAT!
9. I have no opinion on the toys, having not purchased them for a
number of reasons (lack of space, lack of funds, focus on other lines,
and so on). But personally, I like that they replicate the look of the
show so well, and based on what I've heard, they're fairly complicated
- so much so that they may not be ideal for the very young kids
they're aimed at. And if they hadn't replicated the look of the show,
do you honestly think that people would bother to buy them?
...and thus ends what will probably be my last post around here for a
while.
TigerMegatron
names like you called me.
Sorry,If you don't like debatting the TF related stuff in a
professional & polite manner.
ATT is a debate board not a agree board. various members have the
right to agree or dis-agree on TF related topics based on there own
personal preferences.
Onslaught Six
> ATT is a debate board not a agree board. various members have the
> right to agree or dis-agree on TF related topics based on there own
> personal preferences.
e.g. "I don't have to argue any of my points because they're my
OPINION."
Onslaught Six
> The only reason we don't get that with a lot of anime,
> particularly Cybertron, is that so little actually happens - we had
> how many episodes of races on the Speed Planet?
And here's the kicker--the *best* anime are usually the ones that have
lots of stand alone eps, too. Cowboy Bebop is among the top-rated
anime for nearly anybody who's delved into the genre, and it has, at
most, two-episode story arcs.
> ...and thus ends what will probably be my last post around here for a
> while.
Aww.
Thunder Strikes Twice!
> ...you know, this is exactly why I don't post here much anymore.
> Because Deathy is an idiot. Because he's an ass.
Why do you let one person's presence completely disrupt you from making
any posts? Yeah, Deathy posts a lot but you can always ignore him and
just respond to what you want instead. (Not trying to pick on you or
anything just hoping people will continue to post interesting
topics/debates here).
t.k.
William Rendfeld
...okay, admittedly, I am being more than a little immature with
statements like that. Still, he just gets under my skin...
Maybe I need to advertise my more recent writings again. If anything,
it'll encourage a little talk.
TigerMegatron
immature with
statements like that. Still, he (deathy) just gets under my skin... "
exactly how am I getting under your skin?????????????????
I've been ignoring your insults because your not worth my time.
I simply refuse to lower myself to your level.
all you've done since you've returned is act dis-respecfully & try to
create flame wars.
I honestly don't remember you as a ATTer from the past. so there is
zero hate towards you because I don't remember you. I actually thought
you were a newbie ATTer who joined ATT 2 weeks ago. I try to live in
the present & not dwell in the past.
ahsan.sa...@gmail.com
> And yet, I'm responding. What the hell is wrong with me?
No point in being incensed if no-one's around to hear it? If you stick
around long enough, I might get a chance to find out what the real
story was behind WWFF.
> 5. "Michael Jackson Man-childs"? You excluded Prof. Sumdac and Capt.
> Fanzone, thankfully, but you still exaggerate. Did we see any of the
> human characters living in a huge mansion, doing childish things,
> spending way too much time around little kids? With the possible
> exception of Prof. Princess, none of the human characters were "man-
> childs" as you call them...especially not Slo-Mo, Mayor Edsel, Porter
> C. Powell, or the Mayor's aid.
Y'know, there /were/ a lot of human characters in Animated, far better
developed than in G1. Some of them pretty creepy, like Meltdown.
> 8. Do you spend any time around young children? They aren't that
> smart, and there are a lot of adults who have difficulty controlling
> their emotions. Also, Sari was definitely one of the younger human
> kids running around in Western-produced fiction (8 by the end of the
> first season, 9-10 chronologically and 16-17 biologically), but she
> didn't have a two-year-old's IQ. Hell, the fact that she could form
> complete sentences is proof of that. And granted, she did mess up at
> times...but come on, she's a little kid! THEY DO THAT!
Sari was surely one of the better kid characters in Transformers, no?
Better than the Armada kids anyway, and way better than the Cybertron
kids. Not going to say anything about Daniel, because in hindsight, he
wasn't as bad as he could have been, and I'm beginning to feel we (as
a community) were too harsh on the little grease stain.
Or maybe we're all older now. To me, Sari is just as cute as a button.
If I were still a pre-teen when Animated came out, I may have felt
that she was a horrible, terrible thing to happen to Transformers, and
the show had been RUINED FOREVER.
Gustavo Wombat
> ...you know, this is exactly why I don't post here much anymore.
> Because Deathy is an idiot.
I find that it helps if you think of him as a talking dog. Not the
Learned English Dog from Pynchon's "Mason & Dixon", but maybe Dug from
"Up" -- things go over his head, and he fixates on things, and he
really hates squirrels and loves rubber balls.
I used to pretend that he is 15 -- that awkward age where he is
terrified that people will think he likes toys designed for children,
and he really does, so he tries to separate some of them by claiming
that they have "adult" sculpts and "adult" this and "adult" that, all
while reviling anything that makes him feel awkward as "kiddie". He's
not mature enough to accept his immaturity.
Anyway, after all this time, if he was 15, he would have grown up a
little, just with age or experience in the world. Talking dog, on the
other hand, that explains everything. Just don't let him sniff your
butt (unless you like that sort of thing, in which case, more power to
you... I guess)
Don't take him seriously. He complains that toys are designed for
children.
> Because he's an ass. And because I don't
> believe in handing out forgiveness like a free sample of shampoo. Had
> it been me in Greenboy's place a couple years ago, there would have
> been legal action - I believe in punishment, in retribution, in
> earning forgiveness.
> And yet, I'm responding. What the hell is wrong with me?
You're some kind of mechanical ostrich?
> As for your arguments about Animated.
> 7. See above. And personally, I like kids being told that war isn't
> glorious, that you should use your abilities responsibly, that real
> friends are hard to come by, and that heroes aren't just built to be
> heroes. It's certainly better than being told that "guns are evil
> because they hurt people".
Animated has some of the best morals for children of any cartoon I
have seen. "Sometimes you have to do what you have to do, even if it
doesn't make any sense."
Also, I know 5 year olds who have noticed that Optimus, Ratchet, Prowl
and Bumblebee all are dealing with failures from their past (Elita-1,
Arcee, Sensei and Wasp), and that Bumblebee is a schmuck for how
little responsibility he takes.
> 8. Do you spend any time around young children? They aren't that
> smart, and there are a lot of adults who have difficulty controlling
> their emotions. Also, Sari was definitely one of the younger human
> kids running around in Western-produced fiction (8 by the end of the
> first season, 9-10 chronologically and 16-17 biologically), but she
> didn't have a two-year-old's IQ. Hell, the fact that she could form
> complete sentences is proof of that. And granted, she did mess up at
> times...but come on, she's a little kid! THEY DO THAT!
Actually, I thought Sari was way advanced for her age. Spoiled, and
unsocialized, but way too smart, and way too mature for a 8-12 year
old.
>
> 9. I have no opinion on the toys, having not purchased them for a
> number of reasons (lack of space, lack of funds, focus on other lines,
> and so on). But personally, I like that they replicate the look of the
> show so well, and based on what I've heard, they're fairly complicated
> - so much so that they may not be ideal for the very young kids
> they're aimed at.
Splurge and pick up Deluxe Soundwave (not Activators Soundwave!). A
really excellent toy, and small enough to be squeezed onto a shelf
somewhere. Yeah, he's not the most interesting character on the show,
but a very fun update of the original.
> And if they hadn't replicated the look of the show,
> do you honestly think that people would bother to buy them?
People bought first year Beast Machines toys...
Gustavo!
Onslaught Six
> I used to pretend that he is 15 -- that awkward age where he is
> terrified that people will think he likes toys designed for children,
> and he really does, so he tries to separate some of them by claiming
> that they have "adult" sculpts and "adult" this and "adult" that, all
> while reviling anything that makes him feel awkward as "kiddie". He's
> not mature enough to accept his immaturity.
That's a little insulting. To me, I mean, because I was here when I
was fifteen, and I wasn't that bad.
> People bought first year Beast Machines toys...
And some of them were awesome 'in spite' of their show inaccuracy.
Like all of the Vehicons.
Ka Faraq Gatri
<onslau...@gmail.com> wrote:
Most of them made me think, "Why doesn't he look this good on
screen?"
TigerMegatron
were also decent toys.
Thunder Strikes Twice!
> And some of them were awesome 'in spite' of their show inaccuracy.
> Like all of the Vehicons.
I really liked Tankor especially, despite the fact he was "wrong"
looking (and they did a tank drone later for those that had to have the
show accurate one).
t.k.
Chad Rushing
>
> Kid friendly?
>
> Oh, you must mean the humping dogs. And Wheelie humping Mikaela's
> leg.
> And Sam's mom bizarre pot rage and shouting about Sam losing his
> virginity. And the penis jokes in the torture scene. And the twins.
> And heads being torn apart. And Alice pouncing on Sam and thrusting
> her tongue down his throat. And Leo's lines being mostly about his
> testicles. And, lest you forget them, the humping dogs.
>
> Yeah, kids love that shit. It's why the Lion King has all the scenes
> of humping hyenas.
LMHO! Yeah, ROTF is right up there with MARY POPPINS for wholesome
entertainment. If I had kids of -any- age, we wouldn't be renting
ROTF on family night (nor most other movies that get the PG-13 rating
these days).
On a related note, I visited a friend's house over the holidays and
watched the pilot for ANIMATED with her two sons. They told me about
how their parents wouldn't let them see ROTF, and the seven year old
stated that it made no sense to him for there to be ROTF toys for kids
as young as four/five years old if the movie was rated PG-13. Now,
there's one smart kid.
- Chad
Velvet Glove
<ahsan.salahud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sari was surely one of the better kid characters in Transformers, no?
> Better than the Armada kids anyway, and way better than the Cybertron
> kids. Not going to say anything about Daniel, because in hindsight, he
> wasn't as bad as he could have been, and I'm beginning to feel we (as
> a community) were too harsh on the little grease stain.
>
> Or maybe we're all older now. To me, Sari is just as cute as a button.
> If I were still a pre-teen when Animated came out, I may have felt
> that she was a horrible, terrible thing to happen to Transformers, and
> the show had been RUINED FOREVER.
I have to confess to being confused by the way the fandom embraces
Sari (OK, not all of them) but rejects Daniel in such a wholesale
fashion. To be honest, most of my antipathy to Sari is her design
(the TFs grew on me, but Sari's child design is terrifying), but she's
so much more in your face and obnoxious than any of the 80s
characters. I didn't watch Armada et al, so perhaps she comes as a
relief after those? I don't know. She improved a lot when she was
fast-tracked through adolescence, but before then I only liked the
fact that the token kid was female and Asian.
Daniel on the other hand is a fairly restrained child who generally
behaves around the TFs, rarely breaks rules and usually does as he's
told. If anything, he's too bland as a character. This obviously is
Daniel in the US cartoon, and not the Japanese sequels, but the fandom
backlash against Daniel seems to predate most of us seeing those
anyway.
Velvet Glove (who liked Daniel as a child anyway... I totally bought
into the hoverboard=coolness)
ahsan.sa...@gmail.com
> Velvet Glove (who liked Daniel as a child anyway... I totally bought
> into the hoverboard=coolness)
They lied to us about hoverboards... yess, they did. Curse you Robert
Zemeckis!
Maybe Daniel was too big a step backwards? We'd gone from Spike, who,
while a certified pudding-head, was at least a teenager, to a little
kid and we were supposed to identify with him...
That's the best explanation I can come up with. I do know that Spike
was a far more interesting character when he became an adult, yes-yes?
Except for the jumpsuits. What is it with sci-fi and jumpsuits?
Gustavo Wombat
Of the companion children, Sari is the most human of the bunch. She's
a complex character, with explicable emotional responses, who learns
and grows throughout the series. That she actually has a backstory
that is connected to the Transformers is a bonus.
I think we've come a long way from Spike, who had the emotional
complexity of a dish rag.
I think I'm a bit down on G1 these days, particularly the first two
seasons, because the characters just didn't have much depth, often
having a personality trait rather than a full personality. And
episodes were mostly plot driven rather than character driven. I'm
just not seeing it with the child-like wonder that I did at the time.
Even Daniel was a step up from Spike. (I wonder what being binary
bonded to a female robot does to a 12 year old boy...)
Gustavo!
Velvet Glove
>
> Of the companion children, Sari is the most human of the bunch. She's
> a complex character, with explicable emotional responses, who learns
> and grows throughout the series. That she actually has a backstory
> that is connected to the Transformers is a bonus.
Ah, well, if we're going for realistic rather than likeable. Actually
one of my big issues with Sari was the way the Autobots listened to
her. I'm not saying that they should have ignored her, but a bit more
taking into account that she's eight years old and might not be the
best authority would have been nice. I can't recall specific
instances right now, but there were definitely a few times when the
Autobots went with Sari's plan. Hello? Beings from a galaxy who are
millions of years old, and you can't see the flaws in an eight year
old's plan?
> I think we've come a long way from Spike, who had the emotional
> complexity of a dish rag.
But he kept a diary! That was deep! Wasn't it? Mind you, Spike's
much better as an adult.
> I think I'm a bit down on G1 these days, particularly the first two
> seasons, because the characters just didn't have much depth, often
> having a personality trait rather than a full personality. And
> episodes were mostly plot driven rather than character driven. I'm
> just not seeing it with the child-like wonder that I did at the time.
The first season suffered terribly from heavy-handed scripts. The
second season did better in that regard, but the plots were all over
the place in terms of quality and everything was very repetitive. The
third season took most of the action away from Earth, which was a big
help in my opinion, and was lighter on Autobot vs Decepticons--in
fact, it's one of the very few cartoon continuities where the featured
Autobots were in a stronger position than the Decepticons. McGuffin
of the week storylines were still an issue, and, of course, the
animation went down the pan half the time.
> Even Daniel was a step up from Spike. (I wonder what being binary
> bonded to a female robot does to a 12 year old boy...)
Binary bonding is comic continuity. From all the Rebirth cartoon
tells us, any of the headmaster / targetmaster pairs could have walked
away from their partner at any time. OK, so the headmaster robots
might have wanted their head back. And Daniel would still have needed
to find some miracle of medical technology to keep him alive. To be
honest, I think the worst thing would have been going through puberty
while hooked up to an asexual being.
"It's only fluids, Daniel. There's nothing to get worked up about."
"I said I don't want to talk about it!"
Velvet Glove (who gets amused by the most twisted things sometimes...)
Gustavo Wombat
> On Dec 2, 1:20 pm, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Of the companion children, Sari is the most human of the bunch. She's
> > a complex character, with explicable emotional responses, who learns
> > and grows throughout the series. That she actually has a backstory
> > that is connected to the Transformers is a bonus.
>
> Ah, well, if we're going for realistic rather than likeable. Actually
> one of my big issues with Sari was the way the Autobots listened to
> her. I'm not saying that they should have ignored her, but a bit more
> taking into account that she's eight years old and might not be the
> best authority would have been nice. I can't recall specific
> instances right now, but there were definitely a few times when the
> Autobots went with Sari's plan. Hello? Beings from a galaxy who are
> millions of years old, and you can't see the flaws in an eight year
> old's plan?
The Transformers in Animated weren't millions of years old, were they?
And most of the Autobots on Earth were young enough to have not fought
in the Great War (Ratchet had fought, and Prowl was a draft dodger),
and the war was only over for a few thousand years.
And sometimes Sari had good ideas. She was way too smart for her age,
and had much more knowledge about Earth and human customs than the
Transformers did (despite her spending most of her life locked away in
Sumdac Tower)
> > I think we've come a long way from Spike, who had the emotional
> > complexity of a dish rag.
>
> But he kept a diary! That was deep! Wasn't it? Mind you, Spike's
> much better as an adult.
Season 3 of G1 was generally just better. I wouldn't say that it was
character driven, but it took the time to develop some of the
characters a lot more than the first two seasons.
> > I think I'm a bit down on G1 these days, particularly the first two
> > seasons, because the characters just didn't have much depth, often
> > having a personality trait rather than a full personality. And
> > episodes were mostly plot driven rather than character driven. I'm
> > just not seeing it with the child-like wonder that I did at the time.
>
> The first season suffered terribly from heavy-handed scripts. The
> second season did better in that regard, but the plots were all over
> the place in terms of quality and everything was very repetitive. The
> third season took most of the action away from Earth, which was a big
> help in my opinion, and was lighter on Autobot vs Decepticons--in
> fact, it's one of the very few cartoon continuities where the featured
> Autobots were in a stronger position than the Decepticons. McGuffin
> of the week storylines were still an issue, and, of course, the
> animation went down the pan half the time.
It also focused on a small subset of characters, which helped a bit.
> > Even Daniel was a step up from Spike. (I wonder what being binary
> > bonded to a female robot does to a 12 year old boy...)
>
> Binary bonding is comic continuity. From all the Rebirth cartoon
> tells us, any of the headmaster / targetmaster pairs could have walked
> away from their partner at any time.
But they did share thoughts. What 12 year old boy would want a female
robot privy to their every thought?
> OK, so the headmaster robots
> might have wanted their head back. And Daniel would still have needed
> to find some miracle of medical technology to keep him alive. To be
> honest, I think the worst thing would have been going through puberty
> while hooked up to an asexual being.
I don't think they are asexual as such. They have gender, they have
pair-bonds (see the Season 1 episode with the Female Autobots, each of
which was someone's girlfriend). They don't have sexual reproduction,
but they aren't completely asexual.
Octane checks out robo-cheesecake pictures.
And by the time BW comes around, we have Rattrap talking about female
robots without their torso plates.
Depending on how you view the G1 cartoon, the Transformers could
either be going through the motions for no explicable reason, or there
could be a whole sexual side to the Transformers that the cartoon just
never focused on.
> "It's only fluids, Daniel. There's nothing to get worked up about."
>
> "I said I don't want to talk about it!"
"Daniel, it's perfectly normal for a human boy your age to have these
types of feelings, but why were you thinking of a baked potato?"
"I haven't seen a human female other than my mom in years!"
(Daniel did live a weirdly sheltered life)
Gustavo!
Velvet Glove
>
> The Transformers in Animated weren't millions of years old, were they?
> And most of the Autobots on Earth were young enough to have not fought
> in the Great War (Ratchet had fought, and Prowl was a draft dodger),
> and the war was only over for a few thousand years.
I stand corrected! I couldn't remember the numbers. I just knew they
were significantly older than eight. ;)
> And sometimes Sari had good ideas. She was way too smart for her age,
> and had much more knowledge about Earth and human customs than the
> Transformers did (despite her spending most of her life locked away in
> Sumdac Tower)
Yes, but there were other times when you just had to wonder what the
Autobots were thinking.
> Season 3 of G1 was generally just better. I wouldn't say that it was
> character driven, but it took the time to develop some of the
> characters a lot more than the first two seasons.
I think they were definitely trying for a different approach to the
characters. It's actually interesting how the later US cartoons
resemble Season 3 in structure more than Season 1. Beast Wars, Beast
Machines and Animated all focus on a smaller cast of characters which
have a group dynamic (Season 3's cast are still floating a bit, but
there's a better feel for the ranks and interpersonal relationships
than previously). They also all have leaders who have to grow into
the role. While Hasbro have kept up the name Optimus Prime, they've
not been so interested in keeping G1's perfect hero character. Hell,
Animated even had Ultra Magnus counselling Prime.
> But they did share thoughts. What 12 year old boy would want a female
> robot privy to their every thought?
They did? I never got that impression.
> Depending on how you view the G1 cartoon, the Transformers could
> either be going through the motions for no explicable reason, or there
> could be a whole sexual side to the Transformers that the cartoon just
> never focused on.
I used 'asexual' as a term of convenience more than anything. Getting
into what level of sexuality TFs have is a whole other discussion, and
I could go on for pages on that issue.....
> "Daniel, it's perfectly normal for a human boy your age to have these
> types of feelings, but why were you thinking of a baked potato?"
>
> "I haven't seen a human female other than my mom in years!"
>
> (Daniel did live a weirdly sheltered life)
Snerk. He did live a very sheltered life, in many respects. What
kind of kid only has robots attend his 13th birthday party? And let's
face it, he doesn't see his mother all that often either. Of course,
on the flipside of that, the Autobots think nothing of taking him
along to fight Unicron. Poor kid is due some serious therapy.
Velvet Glove (could Torkulon handle Daniel?)
Zobovor
> > But they did share thoughts. What 12 year old boy would want a female
> > robot privy to their every thought?
>
> They did? I never got that impression.
Me neither. Arcee said that she knew Daniel cared for her without
having to come right out and say it, but I always thought that was
just because the feeling was mutual so it didn't need to be verbally
expressed. All of the Autobot Headmasters had to speak out loud to
talk to their Nebulon partners and vice versa, something that wouldn't
have been necessary if they were communicating telepathically. The
Decepticon Headmasters did the same thing, even though the Hive
supposedly had the power to control machines with their minds. The
only telepathic communication I saw in evidence was Zarak controlling
Scorponok.
Zob
Gustavo Wombat
And Scorponok was not a Decepticon, he was just a lump of metal with
some Decepticon symbols painted on.
Damn. Now I have to rewatch The Rebirth, with its 2 character
introductions per minute. I'm wondering if I read more into a line
than intended because of knowledge of the comics.
If there is no melding, what purpose does having humans in the head
have for a Transformer? Why not just chat with them occasionally?
Gustavo!
Gustavo Wombat
> On Dec 2, 4:50 pm, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The Transformers in Animated weren't millions of years old, were they?
> > And most of the Autobots on Earth were young enough to have not fought
> > in the Great War (Ratchet had fought, and Prowl was a draft dodger),
> > and the war was only over for a few thousand years.
>
> I stand corrected! I couldn't remember the numbers. I just knew they
> were significantly older than eight. ;)
>
> > And sometimes Sari had good ideas. She was way too smart for her age,
> > and had much more knowledge about Earth and human customs than the
> > Transformers did (despite her spending most of her life locked away in
> > Sumdac Tower)
>
> Yes, but there were other times when you just had to wonder what the
> Autobots were thinking.
Was this someone other than Bumblebee listening to Sari? Because
that's a whole different issue.
> > Season 3 of G1 was generally just better. I wouldn't say that it was
> > character driven, but it took the time to develop some of the
> > characters a lot more than the first two seasons.
>
> I think they were definitely trying for a different approach to the
> characters. It's actually interesting how the later US cartoons
> resemble Season 3 in structure more than Season 1. Beast Wars, Beast
> Machines and Animated all focus on a smaller cast of characters which
> have a group dynamic (Season 3's cast are still floating a bit, but
> there's a better feel for the ranks and interpersonal relationships
> than previously). They also all have leaders who have to grow into
> the role. While Hasbro have kept up the name Optimus Prime, they've
> not been so interested in keeping G1's perfect hero character. Hell,
> Animated even had Ultra Magnus counselling Prime.
Beast Wars and Beast Machines had the small cast forced on them by CGI
limitations, and made do with what they could. It worked better, I
think, since you got to know the characters better, learn their quirks
and hopes and dreams.
A/E/C tended to have huge casts, but so many episodes that they were
able to focus on characters long enough to give them a bit of growth
(not that they always did... Energon had long passages of Giant
Optimus and Giant Galvatron standing in clouds holding hands and
grunting at each other). And it had the more G1 Perfect Hero Optimus
Prime.
> > Depending on how you view the G1 cartoon, the Transformers could
> > either be going through the motions for no explicable reason, or there
> > could be a whole sexual side to the Transformers that the cartoon just
> > never focused on.
>
> I used 'asexual' as a term of convenience more than anything. Getting
> into what level of sexuality TFs have is a whole other discussion, and
> I could go on for pages on that issue.....
>
> > "Daniel, it's perfectly normal for a human boy your age to have these
> > types of feelings, but why were you thinking of a baked potato?"
>
> > "I haven't seen a human female other than my mom in years!"
>
> > (Daniel did live a weirdly sheltered life)
>
> Snerk. He did live a very sheltered life, in many respects. What
> kind of kid only has robots attend his 13th birthday party? And let's
> face it, he doesn't see his mother all that often either. Of course,
> on the flipside of that, the Autobots think nothing of taking him
> along to fight Unicron. Poor kid is due some serious therapy.
He had a 13th Birthday? With a party attended only by robots? I assume
this was in "Surprise Party". Are you sure he turned 13? He seemed
kind of younger than 13. Plus, it messes up my half-written fanfic
about Daniel's Bar Mitzvah, which is already in tatters because he and
Arcee might not share thoughts.
What? You mean he isn't Jewish?
Gustavo!
Velvet Glove
>
> Was this someone other than Bumblebee listening to Sari? Because
> that's a whole different issue.
Seeing as I can't remember enough to give you specifics, this is going
to have to be an 'I'm pretty sure it happened' argument, which will be
unsatisfying all round. Sorry. But I am pretty sure the Autobots as
a whole followed Sari's advice to their detriment in a few different
episodes.
> He had a 13th Birthday? With a party attended only by robots? I assume
> this was in "Surprise Party". Are you sure he turned 13? He seemed
> kind of younger than 13. Plus, it messes up my half-written fanfic
> about Daniel's Bar Mitzvah, which is already in tatters because he and
> Arcee might not share thoughts.
The original movie script says he's twelve or about twelve, which
means the birthday party in Surprise Party must be his thirteenth at
least. I've always gone for twelve in 2005, thirteen in 2006 and
about fourteen in Rebirth--which is a little better for setting a
minor up as a soldier. His apparent age varies according to animation
and dialogue (if you go by the Ultimate Weapon, he looks older than he
does in Rebirth), but the closest thing we have to canon says he's
twelve.
That said, many fans consider him younger than twelve, and many fans
also apply binary bonding to the cartoon. I don't think you need
worry about your fanfic.
> What? You mean he isn't Jewish?
I'm fairly certain there is nothing in the cartoon to indicate his
religion.
Velvet Glove (so what religion is Arcee?)
Zobovor
> He had a 13th Birthday? With a party attended only by robots? I assume
> this was in "Surprise Party". Are you sure he turned 13? He seemed
> kind of younger than 13. Plus, it messes up my half-written fanfic
> about Daniel's Bar Mitzvah, which is already in tatters because he and
> Arcee might not share thoughts.
He did seem much younger than 13 in the third season. It's probably
got to do with his aforementioned sheltered life—he just didn't grow
and develop like he was supposed to.
By the way, I totally didn't mean to ruin any developing fanfic ideas
of yours. There are ways of getting you back to where you were at
before—the bond between Arcee and Daniel is totally unique in a number
of different ways. For one, she's the only female Headmaster. For
another, she's the only one binary-bonded to a child. Also, Daniel is
human so his physiology may not be the same as the Nebulons. Finally,
the fact that he depended on his exo-suit for life support may be a
factor—he can't just put it on and take it off like a suit of armor.
He had to have been directly connected to it somehow, which means he
was also directly connected to Arcee's head (and possibly her mind as
well). You certainly *can* interpret Arcee's line of dialogue, "You
don't have to [say it], Daniel, I feel the same way too," as evidence
of some kind of psychic communication. It's not a big stretch.
There. Easy fix!
Zob
Zobovor
> > What? You mean he isn't Jewish?
>
> I'm fairly certain there is nothing in the cartoon to indicate his
> religion.
Obivously you haven't seen the episode "When You Wish Upon a
Weinstein."
Zob
ahsan.sa...@gmail.com
They're all reformed Furmanists. Even Daniel. You really think they
could be anything else after seeing the God-machine, Unicron?
Except for Shockwave. He's Orthodox Budianskist. That debris around
him in the Movie when he's shouting "We're under attack! Scramble!"?
That's the walls of his faith crumbling around him.
Gustavo Wombat
This is actually something I found quite lacking in the G1 comics
universe -- Big Ol' Primus lives at the heart of Cybertron, and Big
Ol' Unicron comes wandering by, and everyone just accepts that these
are the gods of legend, and this has no affect on their day to day
life after.
I would have expected there to be a bunch of different reactions to
it. A secular interpretation of them just being a bunch of big robots,
a religious interpretation of it being the gods, and a more devout
religious interpretation where each Transformer believes they have a
very personal spot in the grand design.
But, none of that. I can see not wanting to go anywhere near religion
in a comic about toys, but it seems unrealistic when Transformers are
depicted as being so human in every other way.
Gustavo!
Thunder Strikes Twice!
> I would have expected there to be a bunch of different reactions to
> it. A secular interpretation of them just being a bunch of big robots,
> a religious interpretation of it being the gods, and a more devout
It's possible Furman planned to do more with that but ran out of time
since the comic ended a few issues later. (Or maybe not).
t.k.
Chad Rushing
>
> This is actually something I found quite lacking in the G1 comics
> universe -- Big Ol' Primus lives at the heart of Cybertron, and Big
> Ol' Unicron comes wandering by, and everyone just accepts that these
> are the gods of legend, and this has no affect on their day to day
> life after.
>
> I would have expected there to be a bunch of different reactions to
> it. A secular interpretation of them just being a bunch of big robots,
> a religious interpretation of it being the gods, and a more devout
> religious interpretation where each Transformer believes they have a
> very personal spot in the grand design.
Perhaps, they were gods in the same sense as the gods of Olympus were,
part of the natural order rather than specifically transcendent of it
and limited in power, knowledge, and influence. Sure, they operate at
a different level than "mere mortals," being gargantuan like they are,
but they are ultimately finite and potentially fallible nonetheless.
I think that Dungeons & Dragons realms have typically had the same
kind of pantheon of finite gods who squabble among each other. As
long as a mortal was able to steer clear of the specific
"jurisdiction" or physical manifestations of a god such as that, he/
she/it really wouldn't merit that much ongoing attention.
That all being said, unless Primus and Unicron were able to manifest
some degree of super-natural power -- abilities that literally break
all physical laws of nature -- I would just consider them really big,
old, and powerful robots, the first interpretation you suggested. For
example, Unicron's reformatting of the injured Decepticons in TF:TM
strikes me as hyper-technology rather than "magic" per se, although I
know that the former can often be mistaken for the latter in many
settings, both fictional and nonfictional.
> But, none of that. I can see not wanting to go anywhere near religion
> in a comic about toys, but it seems unrealistic when Transformers are
> depicted as being so human in every other way.
Using Primus and Unicron, the largely irrelevant robo-gods, was
probably the safest way for the comic book writers to insert a
religious dimension into the Transformers universe without risking
offense to many of their readers.
- Chad
Onslaught Six
> Me neither. Arcee said that she knew Daniel cared for her without
> having to come right out and say it, but I always thought that was
> just because the feeling was mutual so it didn't need to be verbally
> expressed. All of the Autobot Headmasters had to speak out loud to
> talk to their Nebulon partners and vice versa, something that wouldn't
> have been necessary if they were communicating telepathically. The
> Decepticon Headmasters did the same thing, even though the Hive
> supposedly had the power to control machines with their minds. The
> only telepathic communication I saw in evidence was Zarak controlling
> Scorponok.
To be fair, Sunstreaker and Hunter are arguing in the IDW comics,
verbally--despite sharing a mind at that point. At one point, they
even argue over the spelling of Dinobots--Sunstreaker insists it's
Dynobots, but Hunter says Dinobots. Because they turn into dinosaurs.
Gustavo Wombat
> On Dec 2, 4:50 pm, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The Transformers in Animated weren't millions of years old, were they?
> > And most of the Autobots on Earth were young enough to have not fought
> > in the Great War (Ratchet had fought, and Prowl was a draft dodger),
> > and the war was only over for a few thousand years.
>
> I stand corrected! I couldn't remember the numbers. I just knew they
> were significantly older than eight. ;)
>
> > And sometimes Sari had good ideas. She was way too smart for her age,
> > and had much more knowledge about Earth and human customs than the
> > Transformers did (despite her spending most of her life locked away in
> > Sumdac Tower)
>
> Yes, but there were other times when you just had to wonder what the
> Autobots were thinking.
In Animated, I'm pretty sure the writers were trying to portray them
as naive and inexperienced, rather than just stupid. But, not all
episodes can be winners, and I'm sure that they sometimes went across
the line from naive to stupid on a few occasions.
But, sad to say, Transformers have often been presented as a bit dim-
witted. It's a problem with shows written for an 8-12 year old -- if
you want the audience to anticipate a flaw in the heros plan, then the
heros have to be dumber than an 8-12 year old.
And then there are the cases where they just act inexplicably stupid,
as if the entire race has had a collective brain fart. "A Prime
Problem" leaps to mind, but there have been a few episodes in every
continuity that are as bad. Not all episodes can be winners, and I
prefer to think of some of those episodes as really bad historical
records of events in the Transformers universe rather than the literal
truth.
(Although, perhaps the Quintessons were somewhere in the background of
"A Prime Problem", testing a new weapon designed to make the
Transformers stupid and easily conquered, but the weapon was
inadvertently destroyed by rampaging staggering stupid Sharkticons,
and then deemed to dangerous to the Quintesson's own survival to be
developed further)
Gustavo!
ahsan.sa...@gmail.com
all the way to Lahore to meet with our stupid, stupid clients, and
came back the same day, and on the way back, they showed RoTF on the
bus I was travelling on.
Huh. Fancy that.
I'll be honest, the TF styles are starting to grow on me. The Fallen,
particularly, looked pretty good, and so did the Geezer (Jetfire, is
it? Or Skyfire?). Wheelie was a cute idea, really he was, and his
eyebrow things look really funny.
But the more I'm forced to watch RoTF, the less I like it as a movie
(despite still admiring it as... what? A phenomenon? What's the right
word, for when you don't like something, but you like the consequences
of it taking place?). My latest problems:
- Sam. Seriously, Sam. He isn't a likeable protagonist. He isn't even
slightly sympathetic. He seems to spend all of his time either running
frantically, slipping, or making that guppy face, where he puffs up
his cheeks and lets out a gasp or a scream. Fine, they had to have a
Witwicky. Why couldn't they use one of the army people? The main army
guy, whatsisface, he's pretty cool. Make him the lead.
- Choreography. I'm not sure that's the right industry word, but what
I mean is, things like the camera shuddering and shaking to denote
"Ooooh, the action's really heating up!", or the slow motion to denote
"Oooh, pay attention, this bit's really dramatic!" Slow motion's
especially galling when they're showing the sexpot running in slow
motion with her... girly-bits auditioning for Baywatch. Oh, and the
camera rolling around the action (at the airport, when the 'bots are
surrounded by government troops) to denote "Lots of stuff going on,
and we want you to know it" gave me motion-sickness.
- CGI-overload. Especially bad near the end. CGI keeps getting better,
but when it's on the screen for long, you start picking out the seams.
When Prime is blowing up the pyramid, I swear, I kept thinking of how
similar the effects were to the Power Rangers' Movie.
- Devastator's balls. How ever did I miss them last time? Oh good
lord.
- Sam as the protagonist. Yes, it bears repeating.