Raksha's Con-Quest - creepy as hell!
A.Patyk
rhetoric to be *extremely* creepy? As I read it, I got the scary impression
I was reading some old piece of propaganda literature. I mean, here's a
quote:
"Con-Quest celebrates thinking for oneself rather than accepting without
question what one is told ... remaining true to one's convictions in the
face of all adversity ... never, ever compromising oneself. To that effect
it showcases those role-models in the Transformer mythos who most clearly
exemplify these qualities - those who hold loyalty to one another above a
set of random and abstract ideals."
The Decepticons...role models? OK. As far as loyalty, I'm sure there were
many loyal Con soldiers in the army...but there is absolutely no evidence
anywhere that they are more loyal to one another than the Autobots.
What really disturbs me is the sheer...seriousness of the essays. They seem
to treat their fabricated image of Decepticons being the oppressed good guys
as the gospel truth. One article, a "wishlist" of BW Predacon re-writes
(egocentrically titled "The way they should have been"), basically wants all
Predacon characters to lose any individual ambition and just care about each
other. One ridiculous example - I am not making this up - is a genuinely
concerned Tarantulas sneaking around the base to make sure everyone is safe
and tucked in.
The writer (Raksha, I believe) of course refuses to call Megatron by his
name, only referring to him as The Pretender to the Name. Yes, "Name" is
capitalized. Apparently, in my absence from reality, the original Megatron
became some kind of important religous figure (obviously a saint of some
kind), and another character being named after him is the highest order of
heresy.
But, hey, what would one expect from Beast Wars, the "purest grade of
garbage that has ever been associated with the Transformers label." To
round out the utter silliness, The Maximals are (of course) described as
"enemies out to kill" the Predacons.
Does anyone else have any comments about this stuff?
David Cousens
Well *that* was extreme. I think sometimes people take these things a
liiiiiiiiiiittle too seriously. Propaganda always concerns me, regardless
of what form it takes.
Dave
(The Original) who's with A. Patyk on this one.
nero...@artic.net
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
A.Patyk
<933622352.4433.1...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>
>Well *that* was extreme. I think sometimes people take these things a
>liiiiiiiiiiittle too seriously. Propaganda always concerns me, regardless
>of what form it takes.
>
It's a very blatant example of textbook propoganda...it plainly rearranges
facts to suit its agenda. The whole thing wouldn't be so bad if it didn't
take itself so seriously - but it seems as if they really believe that it is
the correct and true interpretation of the TF storyline. Just plain weird.
>Dave
>(The Original) who's with A. Patyk on this one.
Thanks!
A.Patyk
Argus Holocaust wrote in message <37A5FF9B...@casema.net>...All in all you've just caught onto all th things I like about it..
Argus
Túrin
>
> Wow, I just took a look at this page...am I the only one who finds its
> rhetoric to be *extremely* creepy? As I read it, I got the scary impression
> I was reading some old piece of propaganda literature. I mean, here's a
> quote:
Don't worry, you're not alone. I read that stuff too, and it left me
thinking "What colour is the sky in their world?" I'm not trying to
offend anyone, but IMO that stuff bears little relation to the real G1
series, which I've been watching again on tape lately. The thing that
gets me is instead of rewriting Transformers canon to make their
favourite characters the good guys and acknowledging that they are doing
so, they are trying to convince everyone else that their rewritten
universe is the real one, the same one the rest of us are watching. And
that's just not true.
Túrin
The (Unofficial) Official Beast Wars Non-Show Character Site
http://knoledge.org/mormegil/
Blacklight
> question what one is told ... remaining true to one's convictions in the
> face of all adversity ... never, ever compromising oneself. To that effect
> it showcases those role-models in the Transformer mythos who most clearly
> exemplify these qualities - those who hold loyalty to one another above a
> set of random and abstract ideals."
>
> The Decepticons...role models? OK. As far as loyalty, I'm sure there were
> many loyal Con soldiers in the army...but there is absolutely no evidence
> anywhere that they are more loyal to one another than the Autobots.
Decepticon motives, for instance why Megatron doesn't just kill
Starscream. Being into herpetology, she's got practice in caring about
traditionally unlovable creatures.
I don't agree with her a lot of the time, but she is fun to argue with.
-Blacklight
Jackpot
A.Patyk wrote in message <7o4o9h$jet$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>...
>Wow, I just took a look at this page...am I the only one who finds its
>rhetoric to be *extremely* creepy? As I read it, I got the scary
impression
>I was reading some old piece of propaganda literature. I mean, here's a
>quote:
>
>question what one is told ... remaining true to one's convictions in the
>face of all adversity ... never, ever compromising oneself. To that effect
>it showcases those role-models in the Transformer mythos who most clearly
>exemplify these qualities - those who hold loyalty to one another above a
>set of random and abstract ideals."
>
>The Decepticons...role models? OK. As far as loyalty, I'm sure there were
>many loyal Con soldiers in the army...but there is absolutely no evidence
>anywhere that they are more loyal to one another than the Autobots.
>
seem
>to treat their fabricated image of Decepticons being the oppressed good
guys
>as the gospel truth. One article, a "wishlist" of BW Predacon re-writes
>(egocentrically titled "The way they should have been"), basically wants
all
>Predacon characters to lose any individual ambition and just care about
each
>other. One ridiculous example - I am not making this up - is a genuinely
>concerned Tarantulas sneaking around the base to make sure everyone is safe
>and tucked in.
>
>The writer (Raksha, I believe) of course refuses to call Megatron by his
>name, only referring to him as The Pretender to the Name. Yes, "Name" is
>capitalized. Apparently, in my absence from reality, the original Megatron
>became some kind of important religous figure (obviously a saint of some
>kind), and another character being named after him is the highest order of
>heresy.
>
>But, hey, what would one expect from Beast Wars, the "purest grade of
>garbage that has ever been associated with the Transformers label." To
>round out the utter silliness, The Maximals are (of course) described as
>"enemies out to kill" the Predacons.
>
>Does anyone else have any comments about this stuff?
Have you checked out ATTCM lately? I think this argument is making its
rounds there again.
- Jackpot (who may be wrong about that, as he can only read about two
sentences of those posts before openly weeping tears of boredom.)
k.f...@worldnet.att.net
> Have you checked out ATTCM lately? I think this argument is making its
> rounds there again.
>
> - Jackpot (who may be wrong about that, as he can only read about two
> sentences of those posts before openly weeping tears of boredom.)
Tell me about it. I just finally found ATTCM and this is about all I
have seen for 2 weeks. It's name should be changed to
alt.toys.transformers.decepticon.history.revision
My advice: I have seen this stuff for about five years and it never
changes. Ignore it. I spent a long time arguing vehemently until it got
in the way of my enjoyment of the TF universe. I Unsubscribed said group
because it didn't seem to cover anything else, and the temptation to get
back into the same old debate was becoming overwhelming. (if you can
call it that - in a real debate the baseless theories would be thrown
out)
The only thing about this that can still get me going is just how many
people jump right on that propaganda bandwagon. Liking the Decepticons
as characters is one thing ( I have my favorites too..) but advocating
Fascism as a real world solution is another.
"Think for yourself.... as long as it is like the way I do"
Túrin
> The only thing about this that can still get me going is just how many
> people jump right on that propaganda bandwagon. Liking the Decepticons
> as characters is one thing ( I have my favorites too..) but advocating
> Fascism as a real world solution is another.
Yup. I mean, I like bad guys, as interesting characters. Darth Vader,
Cyclonus, and all sorts of others. Some films have a bad guy as the
protagonist, like "La Femme Nikita" (the film, not the series which I
won't watch). I mean, she's a cold-blooded killer. But we root for
her.
But liking interesting characters and trying to justify their actions
are tooootally different things. How come Star Wars fans don't have a
"Darth Vader didn't do anything wrong when he blew up Alderaan" faction?
Triceratron
A.Patyk wrote in message <7o4o9h$jet$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>...
>Wow, I just took a look at this page...am I the only one who finds its
>rhetoric to be *extremely* creepy? As I read it, I got the scary
impression
>I was reading some old piece of propaganda literature. I mean, here's a
>quote:
>
>"Con-Quest celebrates thinking for oneself rather than accepting without
>question what one is told ... remaining true to one's convictions in the
>face of all adversity ... never, ever compromising oneself. To that effect
>it showcases those role-models in the Transformer mythos who most clearly
>exemplify these qualities - those who hold loyalty to one another above a
>set of random and abstract ideals."
And, who, ironically display blind loyalty to everyone else. What a load of
hypocritical bull. Thinking for oneself? Remaining true to one's
convictions? Then being loyal to those who don't deserve it? Bleh.
>
>The Decepticons...role models? OK. As far as loyalty, I'm sure there were
>many loyal Con soldiers in the army...but there is absolutely no evidence
>anywhere that they are more loyal to one another than the Autobots.
Probably less so. If someone plays a practical joke on someone else in the
Autobots, they'll be mad for a bit, but they're friends. A Decepticon would
probably kill the joke player.
>
>What really disturbs me is the sheer...seriousness of the essays. They
seem
>to treat their fabricated image of Decepticons being the oppressed good
guys
>as the gospel truth. One article, a "wishlist" of BW Predacon re-writes
>(egocentrically titled "The way they should have been"), basically wants
all
>Predacon characters to lose any individual ambition and just care about
each
>other. One ridiculous example - I am not making this up - is a genuinely
>concerned Tarantulas sneaking around the base to make sure everyone is safe
>and tucked in.
That's a pretty poor characterization, considering Other Victories and
Nemesis revealed that Tarantulus wasn't even a real Predacon, much less a
Decepticon. Any loyalty he'd ever shown was forced--he was loyal only to
himself and the Tripredacus council. This person acts like Ranty had been
under Megatron's command for years and was loyal to him, which is nowhere
near the truth...and neither is the theory they put forward that
Blackarachnia had any loyalty towards the Predacons, at least not the ones
on earth--she thought she did, but now I question that because of her
origins as Tarantulus's ready-made ally kit.
>
>The writer (Raksha, I believe) of course refuses to call Megatron by his
>name, only referring to him as The Pretender to the Name. Yes, "Name" is
>capitalized. Apparently, in my absence from reality, the original Megatron
>became some kind of important religous figure (obviously a saint of some
>kind), and another character being named after him is the highest order of
>heresy.
Heresy. Bwahahahahahahaha! If I got the story correctly--I believe I
do--Megatron on BW took his name from the Covenant of Primus, and probably
from the character that was placed on earth in history--he got it from
himself. It's entirely possible based on that to assume that the original
Megatron took his name from the same place...which would make BW Megatron
the saint and G1 Megatron the Pretender. Heresy I tell you heresy!
>
>But, hey, what would one expect from Beast Wars, the "purest grade of
>garbage that has ever been associated with the Transformers label." To
>round out the utter silliness, The Maximals are (of course) described as
>"enemies out to kill" the Predacons.
Funny, I never saw them attacking the Pred base on a regular basis...in
fact, the only thing they probably intended to kill was a couple of energon
cubes. The Preds however always seemed to show up to blast the Axalon a
good one.
>
>Does anyone else have any comments about this stuff?
Okay...no offense, but this stuff is sooooo full of crap that you could
throw it on dirt to make plants grow. And why, if they hate the Predacons
so much, do they persist in calling them Decepticons? I thought the first
thing they'd do is stop calling them Decepticons, to keep from degrading
both. 'K, I'm done ranting now.
Túrin
<snip> And why, if they hate the Predacons
> so much, do they persist in calling them Decepticons? I thought the first
> thing they'd do is stop calling them Decepticons, to keep from degrading
> both. 'K, I'm done ranting now.
*That* is probably the single (sorry) stupidest thing there is. They
call the Predacons Decepticons, and then get mad when the Predacons
don't act like the Decepticons?! Because they *aren't* Decepticons. I
mean, do I call the Rebels in Star Wars Muslims and then get mad when
they don't pray facing Mecca? It's ridiculous. They get upset at the
lack of loyalty among the Predacons. What they conveniently forget is
that this is a bunch of criminals that have no *reason* to be loyal to
one another.
The reason (I think) they get so upset at Beast Wars is this: the
characters are so well defined that they find it impossible to do a
rewrite on the canon, like they did with G1. In Beast Wars the
characters are *so* well defined that not even *they* can make them out
to be heroes. (Of course, most of us think that's impossible with G1
too, but that had more room for rationalization because of the poorer
characterization.)
The really interesting question is this: why do some people have such a
strong need to justify the bad guys? So strong that when they find out
the bad guys really are bad, they get upset?
Túrin, who doesn't label people good and bad by their faction, but by
their actions as individuals, so there's no point in going on about
"people who accept the 'evil' label like sheep following the Hasbro
shepherd" unless you just *want* to lie.
Triceratron
>But liking interesting characters and trying to justify their actions
>are tooootally different things. How come Star Wars fans don't have a
>"Darth Vader didn't do anything wrong when he blew up Alderaan" faction?
Because people can't justify it and know it would be insane to try. Darth
Vader is *evil*. He was made to be *evil* he is *evil* and there's nothing
anyone could say to change it. The thing is that, according to 'con fans,
the 'cons aren't human and are therefore above our contempt. Not that
anyone else believes them. To anyone who knows what basic morality is
really, believe that evil is a real term used to describe the worst in
everything--death, disease, destruction, loss of freedom, etc. and while
these things happen in nature, when an intelligent being does them just to
do them for any reason other than for pure survival, they are evil in
general. The Decepticons might have needed energon to survive, true, but
Autobots got enough to survive without resorting to things deemed evil. Of
course, Decepticons aren't just trying to survive...they're trying to take
over the galaxy. Frankly, all the arguments they've been making in defense
of the Decepticons would lower my opinion for them if I believed them.
They're taking a powerful group of conquerors and reducing them to impotent
whiny morons. Geeze, if they're going to idolize someone, at least do it
right.
Triceratron, who thinks if Raksha ever met a real life G1 Megatron, he'd
vaporize her on the spot for the way she characterizes them.
Túrin
>
> >But liking interesting characters and trying to justify their actions
> >are tooootally different things. How come Star Wars fans don't have a
> >"Darth Vader didn't do anything wrong when he blew up Alderaan" faction?
>
> Because people can't justify it and know it would be insane to try. Darth
> Vader is *evil*. He was made to be *evil* he is *evil* and there's nothing
But the Decepticon Revisionists (as I've decided to call them
henceforth, because Decepticon Fans is too broad, there are plenty of
Decepticon fans who don't try to rewrite history) don't believe in
evil. To them, evil is as nonsensical as the round square. It just
doesn't exist.
Why though, do they never say "The Decepticons aren't evil because there
is no such thing as evil"? Because they know that most people do
believe in evil. So instead, they try to do this darling little dance
around the issues and never quite come out and say that "evil is a
meaningless term." They change the definition of evil so it *is*
meaningless, they just don't *say* it.
Túrin
Túrin
person's convictions are wrong? History is filled with people who
followed their convictions on slavery, genocide, racism, rape, child
molestation, and all sorts of evils. But of course, according to the
Decep Revisionists, those things aren't evil because there is no such
thing as evil.
Túrin, who thinks "low self esteem" is not necessarily a bad thing; if
you're a rotten person you *shouldn't* have high self esteem...
The (Unofficial) Official Beast Wars Non-Show Character Site
http://knoledge.org/mormegil/
A.Patyk wrote:
>
> Túrin wrote in message <37A613...@SPAMBLOCKknoledge.org>...
> . The thing that
> >gets me is instead of rewriting Transformers canon to make their
> >favourite characters the good guys and acknowledging that they are doing
> >so, they are trying to convince everyone else that their rewritten
> >universe is the real one, the same one the rest of us are watching. And
> >that's just not true.
>
> Exactly. The problem is the attempt to convince us that the actual reality
> of Transformers is somehow "wrong," while their laughably distorted view of
> it is "right." Why not just re-write it as their own story, as you
> mentioned, or just create their own new universe...I can see it now...
>
> The noble and strong-willed Honestcons wiping out the
> Hypocritelyingdirtyscumbots...yeah...Facist-tron and his loyal and kind army
> then proceed to wipe out any insignificant lifeforms that stand in the way
> of their high-minded ideals and noble quest. Oh, wait, did they just suck
> Earth dry of energy and thus wipe out all life there? But they're still
> good guys, see, because they weren't *trying* to wipe out humankind, they
> just didn't *care* what happened as long as their goals were met. And
> that's not evil, that just "remaining true to one's convictions in the face
> of all adversity." What a load of pure garbage...
Sarah
megatron out of astrotrain. And then soundwave starts staking claim in
leadership?
Sarah~
I'm the Unquestionable Queen of the Universe! (It's more of a hobby really)
Black Zarak
> If the Decepticons were so loyal, how come soundwave let them just throw
> megatron out of astrotrain. And then soundwave starts staking claim in
> leadership?
According to the Con-Quest essays, I believe it was explained that Soundwave
wanted to save Megatron but couldn't because he was so outnumbered. So his plan
was to claim leadership, and once the Decepticons got back to Cybertron, he
would take a shuttle or something and go back and get Megatron. Pretty far
fetched, I'd say.
--
Black Zarak <Za...@csolve.net>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/9249
G+++ FR FW-- M+ #260 D++ AD+ N++ W++ B+++ OQ+ MUSH-- BC+ CN+ OM
MicroZone
are tooootally different things. How come Star Wars fans don't have a
"Darth Vader didn't do anything wrong when he blew up Alderaan" faction?>>
Common sense I suspect.
-----
A world beyond good. A world beyond evil. A world....
...
TRANSFORMED!
TRANSFORMERS: BEAST MACHINES
Fox KIDS - September 1999
MicroZone
wanted to save Megatron but couldn't because he was so outnumbered. >>
The true test of one's own integrity and honor is their willingness to do the
right thing no matter the consequense to themselves. And the best we can give
Soundwave here is "um... yeah... I'll get him later. Yeah! that's it later!"
;-)
Sarah
Was Megatron loyal to his fellow Decepticons, or is the loyalty just one way?
Maximus Prime
> *That* is probably the single (sorry) stupidest thing there is.
They
> call the Predacons Decepticons, and then get mad when the
Predacons
> don't act like the Decepticons?! Because they *aren't*
Decepticons. I
> mean, do I call the Rebels in Star Wars Muslims and then get mad
when
> they don't pray facing Mecca? It's ridiculous.
BWAH HA HA HA HA!
--
--Maximus Prime
Keeper of the Transformers Comic Scan Archive
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Omega/4772
Writer of the Maximal Gambit
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/6206
Maximus Prime
> > Have you checked out ATTCM lately? I think this argument is
making its
> > rounds there again.
> Tell me about it. I just finally found ATTCM and this is about all
I
> have seen for 2 weeks. It's name should be changed to
> alt.toys.transformers.decepticon.history.revision
I agree wholeheartedly, fellow WorldNetter. (Isn't it cool to have
"ATT" in your Email addy? :-D) When I finally got ATTCM, I was
ecstatic. . .when I started reading the posts, though, they have all
the vim and vigor of textbook prose. . .if you can call what's in
textbooks prose. . .a tremendously boring and stagnant place. I
finally unsubscribed when I realized I hadn't read any of the
messages there in 2 weeks.
> "Think for yourself.... as long as it is like the way I do"
My favorite is from Stephen Crane:
"Think as I think," said a man,
"Or you are abominably wicked;
"You are a toad."
And, after I had thought on it,
I said, "I will, then,
Be a Toad."
A.Patyk
Zobovor
>But liking interesting characters and trying to justify their actions
>are tooootally different things. How come Star Wars fans don't have a
>"Darth Vader didn't do anything wrong when he blew up Alderaan" faction?
Of course he didn't do anything wrong! Think about it. Princess Leia knew
that Vader had a device in his power capable of destroying planets. For her to
attempt to mislead him--which I have no doubt he read through the Force--was to
doom her entire world. Besides, Alderaan was well aware of the war between the
Empire and the Rebellion. There was nothing stopping them from arming their
world, but instead they chose to remain weaponless and cower behind their royal
banners. Vader's decision was one of many acts of war, nothing more. The fact
that it was inhabited was almost incidental--and certainly meaningless to a
Lord of the Sith.
Gawd, I can't belive I just typed that. :)
Seriously, I know Raksha can express some very strong opinions, but let's not
judge her too harshly. Everyone has their own favorite characters and can
rationalize what he or she "really" meant to do, if you don't like a given
episode. Raksha just extends it to the Decepticons as a whole, is all.
She may have a tendency to express her opinions and fanfiction as canonical
fact, but that's just because she *believes* it. You gotta admit, there are
very few fans out there who are *that* devoted!
Zobovor, who still gets confused by the whole "Decepticon/Predacon" thing
sometimes, admittedly...
ZobTrivia of the Day (8/3): The pejorative "slag" was first used in what BW
episode?
Answer for 7/31: Trypticon was the first Transformer to burp, in "Thief in the
Night."
Túrin
> Seriously, I know Raksha can express some very strong opinions, but let's not
> judge her too harshly. Everyone has their own favorite characters and can
> rationalize what he or she "really" meant to do, if you don't like a given
> episode. Raksha just extends it to the Decepticons as a whole, is all.
The Decepticon Revisionists don't *believe* they are rationalizing
though. That's the thing. It's doublethink, now that I think about it.
> She may have a tendency to express her opinions and fanfiction as canonical
> fact, but that's just because she *believes* it. You gotta admit, there are
> very few fans out there who are *that* devoted!
Perhaps... with good reason. I submit that it is possible to take
Transformers (and many other things) *too* seriously. Remember the
woman dismissed from Jury Duty because she wore a Star Trek uniform and
insisted on being called Commander? Maturity is knowing when to be
serious and when to be frivolous. (I'm not fully mature myself; I lean
toward the frivolous side mostly.)
Túrin
MicroZone
you're a rotten person you *shouldn't* have high self esteem...
>>
LOL!!!! I can see this line being quoted a LOT in the next year. :-)
Mystic Spiral
But, why can't you see the good in Raksha's ideas?... I had the
privilege of meeting Raksha at BotCon this year. I found her to be a
very social and intelligent person. I also met Straxxus (spelling?), the
panelist who talked about Thundercracker. Now, after meeting two of the
"Pro Decepticon" clan members and have read some pro-Decepticon thoughts
in newsgroup posts and various websites, I have to ask what is so wrong
with these ideas? Let me say that I like Decepticons AND Autobots,
and I also like Beast Wars....So obviously my opinions differ with
Raksha's and it probably differs with most of you in this newsgroup as
well... But, don't you guys think it's great that people are putting a
lot of thought into something that we all enjoy? Not everyone's ideas
are going to match perfectly, all the time, and this is good... it is a
good thing that we can debate about the factions in the TF universe and
anything else transformer related, and for someone to do research on
such a debate, IMO should be appreciated.
That is what these newsgroups are for...right? Newsgroups are for
discussion, which can lead to debate.
I haven't seen Raksha or anyone else on "her side" act rude or
hostile in conversations about Decepticons... So why should we?... This
is a big deal.... Transformer fandom is really divided, which would be
okay if there weren't for the insults and flames.
I for one think everyone's opinions on the subject of Transformers
are great, they might not match my own but other opinions open up
possibilities for different ways to interpret things. "What ifs" are
great for conversion, "what if the Decepticon's aren't evil?" It's not
how I look at things, but it is an interesting topic for discussion.
I realise this isn't on-topic and this post won't win any
popularity contests. But, it really disgusts me to see individuals
insulting others when certain opinions don't mesh with their's... I
believe we can be civil... if you or someone else believes the
Decepticons are good, loyal, and honorable... Great!!! if you or someone
else believes the Decepticons are evil,distrustful, and
murderous.....Cool!!! as long as we're all talking about Transformers I
don't see where the problem is.
I think the world would be rather dull if everyone agreed on
everything...
(mystic spiral)
(the almighty)
Tengu
Dutc...@webtv.net says...
> I think the world would be rather dull if everyone agreed on
> everything...
The only thing I wish more TransFans would agree on is that
Transformers are fictional. Once they leave the realm of fiction, they
lose the enjoyment factor that so many of us adore them for. Taking the
Transformers universe into the realm of real-life conflicts,
psychological issues and personality conflicts; IMO, makes them both more
and less than what they are.
Tengu:<>
Cicadacon
Sarah wrote:
> If the Decepticons were so loyal, how come soundwave let them just throw
> megatron out of astrotrain. And then soundwave starts staking claim in
> leadership?
>
Oooh, something I touch upon in my fanfic "Disintegration" (I know it's a
shameless self-plug, but I'd really like more hits on my webpage). I think
that comes up in Part 7 (read it, you know you want to! :).
--
Cicadacon
http://members.xoom.com/ATTcicadacon
"Arrogance is a luxury only the great can afford."-me
G++++ FR FW+ M #238 D+++ ADA N++ W++ B+++ OQ MUSH-- BC CN+ OM- P191
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Cicadacon
"Túrin" wrote:
> Triceratron wrote:
> <snip> And why, if they hate the Predacons
> > so much, do they persist in calling them Decepticons? I thought the first
> > thing they'd do is stop calling them Decepticons, to keep from degrading
> > both. 'K, I'm done ranting now.
>
> *That* is probably the single (sorry) stupidest thing there is. They
> call the Predacons Decepticons, and then get mad when the Predacons
> don't act like the Decepticons?! Because they *aren't* Decepticons. I
> mean, do I call the Rebels in Star Wars Muslims and then get mad when
> they don't pray facing Mecca? It's ridiculous. They get upset at the
> lack of loyalty among the Predacons. What they conveniently forget is
> that this is a bunch of criminals that have no *reason* to be loyal to
> one another.
>
>
<snip>
First of all, I join Maximus Prime in laughter at that Muslim Rebel line. :)
Secondly, I completely disregard anything that the Decepticon Revisionists (as
Túrin calls them) have to say about the Predacons simply because they can't even
call them Predacons. They seem to be in denial over the fact that these aren't
Decepticons, and never will be. IMO, that nullifies basically all they say
about them, because, to me, they're not talking about the same characters I'm
watching. I'm watching *Predacons*, not Decepticons.
A.Patyk
Black Zarak wrote in message <37A65F49...@csolve.net>...
>According to the Con-Quest essays, I believe it was explained that
Soundwave
plan
>was to claim leadership, and once the Decepticons got back to Cybertron, he
>would take a shuttle or something and go back and get Megatron. Pretty far
>fetched, I'd say.
A downright crock, as a matter of fact...
Manic CGZ
>
Raksha is either A) mad or B) heavily ironic.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> The really interesting question is this: why do some people have such a
> strong need to justify the bad guys? So strong that when they find out
> the bad guys really are bad, they get upset?
I think it's fairly easy to see how that can come about, actually... All
it takes is to feel a strong empathy for a character based on various
bits of their characterization. If this character happens to be evil,
there are a few ways to go... You can accept it as a flaw, you can
become evil yourself because if this wonderful character is that way it
must be a good idea, or you can come to an understanding that the
character you so love isn't actually evil after all, but merely
misunderstood. And that last path can be even more appealing if you feel
misunderstood yourself; it just makes your connection with the character
that much stronger.
--Steve-o
Steve Stonebraker | alt.toys.transformers FAQ Keeper | Help end email spam!
srst...@bu.edu | http://astro.bu.edu/~srstoneb/ | http://www.cauce.org
k.f...@worldnet.att.net
> hostile in conversations about Decepticons...
Then you haven't been reading the TF groups long enough. Not that the
pro-Autobot and/or pro-live-in-reality types don't get rude either, but
it has CERTAINLY gone both ways.
> are great, they might not match my own but other opinions open up
> possibilities for different ways to interpret things. "What ifs" are
> great for conversion, "what if the Decepticon's aren't evil?" It's not
> how I look at things, but it is an interesting topic for discussion.
>
Yes, in a perfect world(net). Unfortunately for both sides of the issue
it has degraded over the years. There hasn't been any semblance of what
you could define as a discussion in quite some time. Histories are
re-written to suit ones beliefs, battle lines are drawn and debate is
impossible. It is next to impossible to discuss or debate an issue when
the other side has already re-defined everything into their own vision.
It seems to me, to be a better idea to let it go. Maybe this should be
in the FAQ :)
A.Patyk
Mystic Spiral wrote in message
<15955-37...@newsd-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>> I haven't seen Raksha or anyone else on "her side" act rude or
hostile in conversations about Decepticons...
>>
Don't worry, they have...
>> I for one think everyone's opinions on the subject of Transformers
are great, they might not match my own but other opinions open up
possibilities for different ways to interpret things. "What ifs" are
great for conversion, "what if the Decepticon's aren't evil?"
>>
The problem is that they DON'T treat it as a "What if." They treat it as
the ONE TRUE REALITY, and the rest of us are "wrong." Again, *that* is the
main problem.
If someone says, "In my fan-created TF universe, Megatron is good," I reply
with "That's an interesting twist on the storyline."
However, if someone says, "In the official TF universe, Megatron and the
Decepticons are good, and it is plain as day!" I say, "You're out of your
mind."
Steve-o Stonebraker
> > I haven't seen Raksha or anyone else on "her side" act rude or
> > hostile in conversations about Decepticons...
>
> pro-Autobot and/or pro-live-in-reality types don't get rude either, but
> it has CERTAINLY gone both ways.
I'm sure there have been pro-con fans that have gotten rude, but to my
memory, the high-profile cons have always been rather civil... They
sometimes say things that people take offense to, but that's a lot
different than actively, intentionally insulting somebody.
> Yes, in a perfect world(net). Unfortunately for both sides of the issue
> it has degraded over the years. There hasn't been any semblance of what
> you could define as a discussion in quite some time.
> ...
> It seems to me, to be a better idea to let it go. Maybe this should be
> in the FAQ :)
I dunno... I think the current debates in ATTCMod are quite
interesting. It does seem that the same things get repeated fairly
often, but I learn a little bit more about the whole issue every time it
comes up. Unlike, say, Elita-1/Alita-1 or "I found an uncut TF:TM".
Skyflight
: Wow, I just took a look at this page...am I the only one who finds its
: rhetoric to be *extremely* creepy?
Welcome to real life. Believe it or not, there are people who have opinions
that contrast with yours and hold them as vehemently as you do yours.
Túrin
>
> Túrin (morm...@SPAMBLOCKknoledge.org) wrote:
> > The really interesting question is this: why do some people have such a
> > strong need to justify the bad guys? So strong that when they find out
> > the bad guys really are bad, they get upset?
>
> I think it's fairly easy to see how that can come about, actually... All
> it takes is to feel a strong empathy for a character based on various
> bits of their characterization. If this character happens to be evil,
> there are a few ways to go... You can accept it as a flaw, you can
> become evil yourself because if this wonderful character is that way it
> must be a good idea, or you can come to an understanding that the
> character you so love isn't actually evil after all, but merely
> misunderstood. And that last path can be even more appealing if you feel
> misunderstood yourself; it just makes your connection with the character
> that much stronger.
I guess. I'd just as soon believe the truth, myself. (It's on my coat
of arms after all: Credo Veritas.)
Túrin
That's true. Doesn't mean all opinions are equally valid though.
Skyflight
:> I haven't seen Raksha or anyone else on "her side" act rude or
:> hostile in conversations about Decepticons...
: Then you haven't been reading the TF groups long enough. Not that the
: pro-Autobot and/or pro-live-in-reality types don't get rude either, but
: it has CERTAINLY gone both ways.
When have you seen this? I would like some examples cited. The ones that
come readily to mind - the "sheep" comment which is a complete fabrication.
http://beavis.simplenet.com/legend.html
Her comment that ATT is a cesspool. What would your opinion of a group be
that constantly attacked you? Not your opinions but you as a person? Take a
look at some of the messages in this thread, they are hostile attacks
towards the character of Decepticon supporters. Not our views, but personal
attacks about us as individuals.
And finally Straxus' comment on the Decepticon panel about a fanfic being
crap. Compare that one word to all of the attacks in this one thread alone.
Now consider that Straxus was up on a panel with little or no prepared
material talking to a large audience. Consider that everyone who has posted
the attacks in this thread and all the previous ones compose their messages
at their own pace without a hundred or more people present.
Frankly, I get really sick and tired of hearing about all the insults that
Raksha or Con supporters in general hurl out. My response is simple - Prove
it. Find the articles in question and give the Deja News URL. Shouldn't be
hard if there are so many right? Find them and post the number. Support the
claim if you intend to make it.
The pattern you'll find if you search - Raksha will post a pro-Decepticon
article in which she says what she thinks about the Autobots as a side note.
Someone will then post a personal attack directed at her calling her all
manner of things. They feel justified doing so because Raksha insulted the
Bots. Funny thing though, when someone insults the Decepticons you'll
notice that Raksha does not respond with a personal attack, nor do I. We
respond calmly, rationally, and respectfully to the issues raised. Do we
insult Bot supporters or claim they're rewriting history or call them creepy
or bad people? No. We acknowlege they have the right to their opinion and
respectfully disagree with them about the issues.
If you want to see this in action without searching through Deja (I dislike
the new format myself) just wait until the next ConQuest essay is posted.
The essay will be about issues, and in response the author will be
personally insulted. Does it strike anyone as logical to flame someone based
on their view of a fictional world? If I say I like ice cream, is it a
reasonable response for someone to cuss me out or question my sanity?
--
Skyflight - Decepticon, ATTCM co-moderator, and Anti-Spam crusader
"And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon that is dreaming."
Any questions about ATTCM? http://www.concentric.net/~beavis/attcm
A.Patyk
Skyflight wrote in message <7o7iof$c56$4...@news.panix.com>...
>A.Patyk <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>: Wow, I just took a look at this page...am I the only one who finds its
>: rhetoric to be *extremely* creepy?
>
>Welcome to real life. Believe it or not, there are people who have opinions
>that contrast with yours and hold them as vehemently as you do yours.
It's just funny when they so clearly ignore a reality and embrace a
misinterpretation.
k.f...@worldnet.att.net
> :> hostile in conversations about Decepticons...
>
> : Then you haven't been reading the TF groups long enough. Not that the
> : pro-Autobot and/or pro-live-in-reality types don't get rude either, but
> : it has CERTAINLY gone both ways.
>
> When have you seen this? I would like some examples cited. The ones that
> come readily to mind - the "sheep" comment which is a complete fabrication.
> http://beavis.simplenet.com/legend.html
>
(buncha stuff clipped)
Whoa there partner, read my post again. What I am saying is that BOTH
sides have gotten nasty in the past. I have not taken sides here. What I
HAVE said is to let it go, and not get too upset either way.
To address your challenge to find these posts on Deja: I have searched
through said service to find old posts of mine and others, and it
doesn't go back far enough. The really good debates/discussions from
before TFs were as big as they are now can't be accessed anymore.
I did not attack you, or your ideals.
k.f...@worldnet.att.net
> >doesn't go back far enough. The really good debates/discussions from
> >before TFs were as big as they are now can't be accessed anymore.
>
> DejaNews went back to the beginning of 1996 for ATT, when BW was *just*
> getting started. For a fine bot/con debate, look up "Blitzwing question"
> from about that time.
Call my bluff? I have looked for posts written by my old email name AND
posts written by a certain key character in this issue's old email
address and it turned up nothing, "no Matches".
Maybe I don't know how to coax Dejanews into finding what I am looking
for as well as you do but "Ehhh... I gotta call your bluff on that one"
seems a little arrogant to me. I am glad you know what my intentions
are.
Finback
>
> Well *that* was extreme. I think sometimes people take these things a
> liiiiiiiiiiittle too seriously. Propaganda always concerns me, regardless
> of what form it takes.
Me too, especially when someone gets four of them into play..
eight mana, I don't know..
;) [Waves to all those who know the significance of the words, "Ach, Hans!
Run!"]
+-----------------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Marcus Good aka "Finback" | "That which is not dead |
| eg...@cc.curtin.edu.au | can eternal lie, |
| http://student.curtin.edu.au/~egood | And with strange aeons |
+-----------------------------------------+ even death may die." |
| "HOSPITAL BAN ON BABIES" | -- HP Lovecraft, |
| - headline, "Newark Advertiser"| "Call of Cthulhu". |
| 6th Feb, 1998 | |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Robert Powers
On Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:30:04 -0400, Tengu <te...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> The only thing I wish more TransFans would agree on is that
>Transformers are fictional. Once they leave the realm of fiction, they
>lose the enjoyment factor that so many of us adore them for.
Heh. Defining something as "real" or not is a tricky bit of business.
Of course, we all know that Megatron and Optimus et al. aren't "real" in
the literal, everyday sense of the word. There are no giant alien
shape-changing robots fighting a war on our world.
But for someone to sucessfully write about a fictional character, that
character has to take on a life of their own within the writer's mind.
For me, at least, I have to be able to sort of call them up in my head --
like loading a computer file -- and see what they'd do or say in whatever
situation I'm putting them through. Basically that means I imagine them
running through the scene, and then I decide if it feels right for how I
imagine the character to be.
Do this enough, and the "reality" of a character can seem a bit muddy
after a while. Even though there's no real metal-and-plastic being that
actually *is* a particular character, you can find these fictional
constructs running roughshod in your own mind after a while. Come to
think of it, that's probably what Bob'n'Larry when they said that having
dreams about the characters means it's time to move on... :]
Anyway... I guess if there's any point to all my rambling, it's that
for some folks, the enjoyment of it all comes *from* taking it a bit "too
seriously". And for the most part... well, is that really so bad?
--
Robert Powers of the Ever-Changing .sig
repo...@netaxs.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6754
| Of course, it's all fun and games till |
| someone gets kicked off their ISP for |
| flaming someone else.... :] ___________|
Robert Powers
On Tue, 03 Aug 1999 20:12:31 -0400, k.f...@worldnet.att.net
<k.f...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>To address your challenge to find these posts on Deja: I have searched
>doesn't go back far enough. The really good debates/discussions from
>before TFs were as big as they are now can't be accessed anymore.
Ehhh... I gotta call your bluff on that one. Last time I looked,
DejaNews went back to the beginning of 1996 for ATT, when BW was *just*
getting started. For a fine bot/con debate, look up "Blitzwing question"
from about that time.
--
Robert Powers of the Ever-Changing .sig
repo...@netaxs.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6754
| Ahhh, memories... |
|_____________________|
Shard Fields or Megasomething
>> liiiiiiiiiiittle too seriously. Propaganda always concerns me, regardless
>> of what form it takes.
>
> Me too, especially when someone gets four of them into play..
>eight mana, I don't know..
>
>;) [Waves to all those who know the significance of the words, "Ach, Hans!
>Run!"]
Why? It's just a large, freaky creature.
Megasomething, who thinks the Lhurgoyf looks sort of like an "Inferno
creature."
I don't suppose we could teach them to _throw_ the cursed things?
.sig not included.
Shard Fields on AGNP
Megasomething on ATT
medus...@my-deja.com
read this group for months. Truly amazing - and quite amusing. It's a
shame, really, that in all the hubbub no one thought to post the URL,
so I will correct the oversight. If you *really* want to see what it's
about, rather than taking someone else's word for it, then I challenge
you to come see for yourself.
You can find the brand-new "Con-Quest of the Web" at:
http://www.plumed-serpent.com/cqweb.html
Don't forget to follow the links for a sneak preview of the current
issue, #25. A couple of new essays up, by myself and by others, as
well as plenty of other neat stuff.
While you're there, check out the other essays (linked individually
from the main index page at http://www.plumed-serpent.com), fanfic
(http://www.plumed-serpent.com/time.html), the Tribute to Soundwave
(http://www.plumed-serpent.com/soundwave.html), the Decepticon High
Command gallery (http://www.plumed-serpent.com/leaders.html), the
recently-updated Artifacts List (http://www.plumed-
serpent.com/artifacts.html), the TF Trading Card Exchange
(http://www.plumed-serpent.com/tfcards.html), and all the neat links to
various creative fan sites and more. More plans and projects coming
your way in the Fall, too ... more on that in good time. ;) Enjoy - and
remember, Decepticons Never Surrender! :)
--Raksha
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Robert Powers
On Tue, 03 Aug 1999 21:08:02 -0400, k.f...@worldnet.att.net
<k.f...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>for as well as you do but "Ehhh... I gotta call your bluff on that one"
>seems a little arrogant to me. I am glad you know what my intentions
>are.
*Sigh*... good grief...
I've already restrained myself from biting sarcasm once this evening
(in the "Post in English!" thread.) Can I do it again?... yes. Yes I
can. Instead, I simply pass along a reference to the word
"colloquialism"...
As for DejaNoNews, are you setting your search to "past messages"?
IIRC you have to do an initial search before it'll give you that option,
for some inexplicable reason, and given their current mess of an
interface, it'd be an easy thing to miss.
--
Robert Powers of the Ever-Changing .sig
repo...@netaxs.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6754 ___
| To quote a long-lost .sig of someone else's... |
| RELAX!! It's just ONES and ZEROS! _____________|
Craig Cicero AKA Brax Cardigan
> Anyway... I guess if there's any point to all my rambling, it's that
>for some folks, the enjoyment of it all comes *from* taking it a bit "too
>seriously". And for the most part... well, is that really so bad?
OTOH, I find it fun to read *way* too much into things I would otherwise not
enjoy, like, say, certain games and TV shows...
(Example: Pokemon is all about the slavery of sentients!)
>Robert Powers of the Ever-Changing .sig
>repo...@netaxs.com
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6754
>| Of course, it's all fun and games till |
>| someone gets kicked off their ISP for |
>| flaming someone else.... :] ___________|
Name that MST3K ep:
Gypsy: Fun until somebody dies!
Good times...
--Brax Cardigan
Pyre[Rock]
Of coarse. You can't surrender if you're always running away... :-)
--
Pyre[Rock] - the...@rica.net http://home.rica.net/dcarson/therock/
TF Fancode: G++++ FR FW- M #150 D++ ADA N++ W++ B+++ OQP MUSH-- BC CN+++
"Fear. Fear attracts the fearful, the strong, the weak,
the innocent, the corrupt. Fear. Fear is my ally."
-Darth Maul
Zobovor
>Frankly, I get really sick and tired of hearing about all the insults
>that Raksha or Con supporters in general hurl out. My response is
>simple - Prove it. Find the articles in question and give the Deja
>News URL. Shouldn't be hard if there are so many right?
What if it was a personal e-mail? Since you brought it up, I know Raksha has
made at least one enemy through vicious e-mail flames. If that person chooses
to speak up and support this, so be it.
>Do we insult Bot supporters or claim they're rewriting history or call
>them creepy or bad people? No.
Okay, now it's your turn. Explain to me when someone called Raksha a "bad
person," because I guess I missed that post.
Here's the deal. The Decepticons are the bad guys because they steal energy
and destroy things. Autobots are the good guys because they protect the humans
and repair the damages wrought by the Decepticons. I know this is true because
every canonical source in the known universe supports this.
Now if I write a fanfic that says Dion was turned into Ironhide, while there's
no direct evidence to support this, it still fits within the known canon, so
there's nothing wrong there. I could even decide that Dion was actually a
great deal smarter than Orion Pax, who was heavily dependant upon Dion's
guidance. And that the same goes for Optimus Prime's relationship with
Ironhide. Okay, that might sound a little weird to some people (and certainly
goes against what we've been taught about Prime), but where's the harm in
creating my own interpretation of the story? However, when I insist that the
reason Prime died is because he lacked Dion's guidance in the movie, argue
vehemently anyone who claims Hot Rod had one iota to do with it--and yes, I
refuse to call Ironhide by any name except Dion because that was his original,
and therefore one true name... well, yes, that's an extremist view, and a bit
creepy.
My point is, there's nothing wrong with saying you're a Decepticon fan. I'm
one myself. But when you start claiming that the Decepticons were the "real"
heroes of the story, that every episode was shown from the Autobots' own
twisted, malformed viewpoint, and that any deviation from the story you know
and love is blasphemy... my friend, that's rewriting history. At that point
you may as well create your own comic book called "The Shape Changers" and tell
the story the way you want it to be told, since the story of the Transformers
obviously doesn't do it for you.
Skyflight, I often wonder why you come racing to Raksha's rescue whenever a
string like this starts up. She is not incapable of defending herself; she
simply chooses not to read and/or post to this particular newsgroup. In a way,
you're propagating the flames against her by fueling the fires. I've never
seen you respond this way to trolls, but you're getting the same results by
giving the offenders the attention they're looking for...
ZobTrivia of the Day (8/3): The pejorative "slag" was first used in what BW
episode?
Answer for 7/31: Trypticon was the first Transformer to burp, in "Thief in the
Night."
Túrin
>
> It's amazing what lands in my mailbox sometimes, even without my having
> read this group for months. Truly amazing - and quite amusing. It's a
> shame, really, that in all the hubbub no one thought to post the URL,
> so I will correct the oversight. If you *really* want to see what it's
> about, rather than taking someone else's word for it, then I challenge
> you to come see for yourself.
As far as I know, everyone who has taken part in the discussion has read
the essays. But she's right, if you haven't, you need to, so you know
what we're talking about.
The main page for the Decepticon Revisionists is:
http://www.plumed-serpent.com/
Check it out and draw your own conclusions.
Iggy Drougge
:
: Black Zarak wrote in message <37A65F49...@csolve.net>...
Indeed. It is a well-known fact, in particular among the Decepticons, that
Soundwave is a scheming bastard. Megatron had given him a very good
position for a long time, but as a weak wreck, he no more served any
purpose for Soundwave, who then proceeded to claim leadership for himself.
--
/Iggy, the irregular regular
SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo himself
unexplained reason I was unable to read news for a day or so.
Ah well, it's in order now. :)
I realize that a lot of points have already been made by plenty
of other fans, but I'd still like to offer my comments. Forgive
me if I repeat too many of the arguments. :)
First of all, it has to be said that Raksha, who is at the forefront
of all this, is obviously quite intelligent. I've spoken to her on two
occasions (BotCon '98 and '99), and while our views differ, the
discussion was interesting. Admittedly, I wasn't too familiar with
any of her work at the time. I think the thing I liked at that point
was the fact that she doesn't hate *all* the Autobots. She likes
the Dinobots and Rodimus Prime - "for an Autobot". But having
quickly browsed the web page that started this whole series of
threads, I too found everything to be incredibly one-sided, and
with an astounding lack of tongues in cheek.
Like Tengu said earlier, it seems that these people, and many
other fans as well, tend to forget that the Transformers aren't
more than fictional characters. And I have to wonder myself
if they realize there is a life - a real life - outside of the TFU.
I have absolutely no problem with anyone rewriting the whole
continuities in any way they want, in order to suit their own
favourite view of how things could or should be. The mildly
put uneven characterization from the original G1 show opens
up a lot of doors to innumerable pathways where fan fiction
is concerned, and it's fun to see people's ideas of "What if this
or that had or had not happened?". But the cartoon also sets
canonical boundaries that cannot be broken and at the same
time be called "canon".
Everybody has different views on things, which is a large part
of what makes a discussion group worthwhile, but I'm just not
able to see how the Raksha and Co. can say that their claims
are the real deal.
In Raksha's first posts after she returned from this year's BotCon,
she said something about how the Decepticon panel had done a
a good turn in fighting for the cause (or something like that), and
went on to talk about how certain facts had been set straight.
One of these was that Nightbird was "a sentient, living Decepticon"
who clearly had a romantic relationship with Megatron. First of all,
Nightbird was created by a Japanese scientist, Dr. Fujiyama, so
any notion that she was a Decepticon is ridiculous. And as far
as sentience goes, I highly doubt Bombshell's manipulations
involved giving her a personality of her own, ie life. As far as I
could tell, he mainly made her more powerful ("... and a triple
power booster..."). I also doubt his comment, "I love warping
minds for you, Megatron... *snicker*... love it" proves that
she was indeed *alive*. Functional, yes, but alive? No. And
on what do they base this "romance" between Megatron and
her? The fact that he said, "She is everything I always wanted!"
Come on, he clearly meant "... in a warrior!" And what is more,
wouldn't it be beneath Megatron to "get involved" with a lowly
earthen creation?
I've discussed, nearly argued, with people before about outlandish
claims, such as one who said the dead robot who falls out of the
chamber and almost smashes Daniel in "Dark Awakening" is
Brawn (no Brawn lives/is dead stuff now, please), when it doesn't
look anything like him at all. I mean, just look at the episodes! For
all the flaws in the cartoon, the canonical facts are there. It's the
fact that people seem to be so blind to what is right in front of them
that I can't understand. But then again, I suppose there are none
so blind as those who will not see.
In conclusion, Raksha and her followers have a right to their views,
and if they want to, and they obviously do, they can even pass it
off as canon. But what they cannot do, is force anyone into accepting
this as the *truth*. For me, the truth will always be in the show, no
matter how flawed it might be.
Thanks for reading,
--
Rikard Bakke
Swo...@xoommail.com
The Cybertron Chronicle
http://members.xoom.com/Swoop73/
Transformers Fan Code
G++ FR FW+ #66 D+ AA+ N++ W++ B++ OQP BC98+ BC99+ CN+++ OM+
Tyme
wrote:
>medus...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> remember, Decepticons Never Surrender! :)
>
>Of coarse. You can't surrender if you're always running away... :-)
Do I detect a new motto here? ;o)
I think it's perfect for BW Neo's Crazybolt (Iguanus), the escape
artist.
~Tyme
The Time TRaveling Cat
Tyme
>
>Skyflight, I often wonder why you come racing to Raksha's rescue whenever a
>string like this starts up. She is not incapable of defending herself; she
>simply chooses not to read and/or post to this particular newsgroup.
I believe that's called 'gallantry'. Something I'm incapable of doing
every day. =o)
Ah, back to the Shakespeare days...
~Tyme
The Time Traveling Cat
Raksha
>>Frankly, I get really sick and tired of hearing about all the insults
>>that Raksha or Con supporters in general hurl out. My response is
>>simple - Prove it. Find the articles in question and give the Deja
>>News URL. Shouldn't be hard if there are so many right?
>
>What if it was a personal e-mail? Since you brought it up, I know Raksha has
>made at least one enemy through vicious e-mail flames.
You know something ... I just thought I would say it, because
I thought that at least certain people hereabouts would be more fair
and rational, and I'm disgusted with what I'm hearing. You want to
dump the blame on me behind my back on a newsgroup that I'm well-known
to normally avoid, because according to you I "made an enemy through
e-mail flames" ... well, did it ever occur to you that I was attacked
*first*? And that's been the story every single time. I will argue
the *issues* vehemently, but never once have I resorted to personal
attacks *until* someone else did so first. When someone launches a
personal attack against me, you better believe I feel justified in
bringing out the talons and returning the favor in kind. I have done
so entirely in public right here on this newsgroup, because I don't go
for the hypocrisy that claims the "moral high ground" and yet
instigates all the attacks, then tries to make the attacked party look
like the instigator simply because of a difference in outlook. I make
no apology for my point of view, and no apology for responding in
kind, and *publically*, to flamers -- though of course I *have* at
times thereafter taken it to e-mail in order to not drag out a totally
useless and off-topic thread on a group that was ostensibly supposed
to be about *Transformers*. A lot of the garbage that goes on here,
I don't know about and I don't want to know about, but I do hear of it
on occasion, and you better believe I'm not going to just roll over
and take it every single time. And yet you want to insult me for
that? Thinking that I'm not going to see it? How do you justify in
your mind that it's "wrong" for me to defend myself, and yet it's not
"wrong" for me to be continuously attacked and slandered by a bunch of
people who for the most part don't even know what they're talking
about? And then you also want to fault people who stand up for my
viewpoints -- perhaps because, gods forbid, they happen to *share*
them? Who are you to forbid those people their right to expression,
just because *you* don't happen to agree with it? Has it occured to
you at all that it's not a defense of *me* but rather a defense of the
*Decepticon worldview* which we happen to share? But oh, you've got
to rationalize it in some way, don't you, because otherwise you
couldn't comprehend how anyone could "really believe that stuff".....
I will say flat-out that every single "arguement" I've seen in
this thread can be responded to and refuted easily, but I'll be damned
if I'm going to waste that much time in this cesspool. Yes, there's
that word again. Cesspool. You people want to discuss the *issues*?
Then e-mail me, or post to ATTCM. Flames and insults will be laughed
at and ignored. I'm revolted at the cowardice that I see displayed
here, the people who don't have the courage to speak to me in person
if they disagree with my takes, or perhaps they just lack the ability
to rationally state their own arguements, so they resort to flames
behind my back. People who seem to have forgotten, or perhaps never
realized, that I'm constantly giving *concrete evidence* for my point
of view, which is *right there* in the episodes. I have never made up
a scene or a line of dialoge which I point to as evidence -- it's
*there*. I didn't make up that Skywarp's first act upon awakening on
Earth was to make sure Megatron was revived; I didn't make up that
Soundwave was constantly standing by Megatron and warning him of
danger; I didn't make up that Megatron said of Nightbird, word for
word, "She's everything I've always wanted;" I didn't make up that
Megatron time and time again forgives Starscream and lets him get away
with the most horrendous transgressions, or that Megatron is
constantly taking the safety of his warriors into account; I didn't
make up that Shockwave wished Megatron a safe journey through the
space bridge and stated proudly that he "served only Megatron"; I
didn't make up that Skywarp and Thundercracker spoke to each other in
a friendly manner and expressed an understanding of one another's
feelings; etc. etc. etc. It's *there* for anyone to see. So how is
that "revisionism"? I'm not re-writing the episodes -- I'm pointing
to *what's there.* And if there are people who are pissed off about
it, then maybe they should take issue with the writers of the
episodes, and not with me, because *that* is what was shown.
Now, if you'd like to believe that the Decepticons are "evil"
because they steal energy from the humans, then that's your perogative
-- but that is only *your* human-centered view of the situation.
Where is it determined that the act of stealing energy from humans is
by its nature "evil"? Isn't it also *heroic* because it advances the
Decepticon cause and allows them to forge a better future for their
own kind and their descendents? And aren't the Autobots from that
standpoint *evil* in trying to continuously deny the Decepticons their
needed life-giving fuel -- unless of course the Decepticons were to
throw away their very nature and philosophy and cave in to *Autobot*
ideals? And because the Decepticons refuse to do that and stand their
ground with great courage, nobility, and strength of character, and
make no apologies for going through the universe their own way,
they're slandered as "evil"?? Rather like attacking someone for
*defending* themselves, isn't it? I honestly thought there were a few
more rational people hereabouts still, but obviously I was wrong.
With that out of the way ... I will once again give the URL to my
site:
Those who wish to make up their *own* minds, rather than have their
opinions fed to them by a bunch of people with some warped vendetta
against me, I urge you to come on by and *read*. Who knows ... maybe
you'll even learn something if you leave your pre-conceived biases
behind.
Don't bother responding to me here on the newsgroup, because I'm once
again no longer going to read the posts and threads here, regardless
of what happens to land in my mailbox. Any public attacks in response
to this post, can be considered yet more cowardly flames by those who
don't dare to speak to me rationally and calmly where I will in fact
see what they have to say. Go ahead. Show more of your true colors,
ATT. I don't care one way or the other.
--Raksha
ATTCM - the Transformers at their best!
(request alt.toys.transformers.classic.moderated
from: postmaster@<your provider's address>)
--------------------------------------------------------
"I am the Plumed Serpent, I strike and I soar!"
--------------------------------------------------------
All-time favorite Transformer: Soundwave ("The secrets
of the Universe reveal themselves to those who listen.")
--------------------------------------------------------
OSU Dept. of Evolution, Ecology, & Organismal Biology
Maximus Prime
--
--Maximus Prime
Keeper of the Transformers Comic Scan Archive
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Omega/4772
Writer of the Maximal Gambit
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/6206
SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo himself <Swo...@xoommail.com> wrote in
message news:37A80F76...@xoommail.com...
> In conclusion, Raksha and her followers have a right to their
views,
Merlynn
>But liking interesting characters and trying to justify their actions
>are tooootally different things. How come Star Wars fans don't have a
>"Darth Vader didn't do anything wrong when he blew up Alderaan" faction?
Well,that's largely because Vader didn't blow up Alderaan. Grand Moff
Tarkin (sp?) did. The admiral looking guy? Gray suit,accent?
"Really,princess,you're far too trusting." -Grand Moff Tarkin
A.Patyk
Merlynn wrote in message
<78B2F46CEFD46D20.E0964ADE...@lp.airnews.net>...
>Well,that's largely because Vader didn't blow up Alderaan. Grand Moff
>Tarkin (sp?) did. The admiral looking guy? Gray suit,accent?
>
Does that really make any sort of difference? They were obviously both
responsible...
A.Patyk
Just a few comments regarding some statements you made in response to the
above post:
> Now, if you'd like to believe that the Decepticons are "evil"
>because they steal energy from the humans, then that's your perogative
>-- but that is only *your* human-centered view of the situation.
>Where is it determined that the act of stealing energy from humans is
>by its nature "evil"?
Evil = harming others (esp. innocents).
Stealing fuel = harming humans (innocents, in this case).
Decepticons = evil.
> Isn't it also *heroic* because it advances the
>Decepticon cause and allows them to forge a better future for their
>own kind and their descendents?
Goal achieved at the expense of others (in this case, innocents) = evil.
> And aren't the Autobots from that
>standpoint *evil* in trying to continuously deny the Decepticons their
>needed life-giving fuel
To protect others (innocents) from coming to harm = good.
>And because the Decepticons refuse to do that and stand their
>ground with great courage, nobility, and strength of character, and
>make no apologies for going through the universe their own way,
>they're slandered as "evil"??
No amount of rationalization changes the fact that harming others
(especially innocents, like the humans in this case) in pursuit of your goal
is WRONG.
Thanks for your time...
(also sent via email)
Túrin
>
> Those who wish to make up their *own* minds, rather than have their
> opinions fed to them by a bunch of people with some warped vendetta
> against me, I urge you to come on by and *read*. Who knows ... maybe
> you'll even learn something if you leave your pre-conceived biases
> behind.
You know what I find funny? People talk about Decepticon Revisionist
arguments, and then it's the people defending them that bring up the
name Raksha. At least that's how it's been done with me. I discuss
points of view, not the individuals who espouse them.
And for the record, all my opinions on Decepticon Revisionism were
formed by reading Raksha's site and ATTCM before I was even an ATT
regular poster. So there. (If there is *concrete evidence* as Raksha
claims, it is apparently missing from her site and ATTCM, because I read
the articles and it wasn't there. A spun quote does not proof make; a
text taken out of context is a pretext.)
I tried responding to ATTCM discussions but got squelched, and I
guarantee there were no flames in my posts. Maybe it wasn't the
moderator's fault, I don't know, but I can post to RTTM. So I'll stay
on ATT, thanks. It's my kind of cesspool.
Cutie0155
Raksha stands up for the Decepticons, and what all us Decepticon supporters
believe in. I know you probably aren't reading this, Raksha, but, thanks.
Marie
>Subject: Re: Hey, wait a minute.was Re: Raksha's Con-Quest - creepy as hell!
>From: Rak...@plumed-serpent.com (Raksha)
>Date: Wed, 04 August 1999 11:08 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37a85305...@news-stand.acs.ohio-state.edu>
BW Sidecutter
to deny the Decepticons their needed life giving energy" is terribly flawed.
The autobots aren't trying to deny the energy to the Decepticons necessarily.
Rather, they're trying to stop the Decepticons from harming others in that
pursuit of energy. I, say, the Decepticons built a fuel refinery and made
energon there, without harming others in the process or intending to use said
enegry to harm others afterwards, the Autobots, I'm sure, would be more than
happy to leave them be.
BW Sidecutter, Decepticon Warrior /
Nuk Raxe, Jedi Knight
Túrin
Well, I don't know about *that*. If they Decepticons changed their goal
of universal conquest and then made their own fuel refinery, I'm sure
the Autobots would leave them alone. But as long as the Decepticons
plan on taking over the Universe, the Autobots have to stop them no
matter if they are harming others or not.
A lot of people seem to miss this point: one of the Autobots reasons
for fighting the Decepticons was self-preservation! Not just to protect
other species, but themselves. If Earth had no people on it, the
Autobots would have *still* interfered with the Decepticons plans.
Because the Decepticons plans include the destruction or enslavement of
the Autobots!! They're fighting a war, the Autobots aren't the Fire
Department out to rescue endangered humans.
A.Patyk
>energon there, without harming others in the process or intending to use
said
>enegry to harm others afterwards, the Autobots, I'm sure, would be more
than
>happy to leave them be.
Agreed. To say that the Autobots are wrong for trying to stop the
Decepticons is ridiculous. If you just look at one piece of it (the
Autobots are trying to stop the Decepticons' plans), yes the Autobots may
seem oppressive in that narrow-minded context. But if you widen that narrow
view to look at the whole picture (the Autobots are trying to stop the
Decepticons' plans because those plans involve harming others), then the
Autobots are plainly the "good guys" and denying that is quite laughable.
If the Decepticons completely changed their deploarble methods and
intentions, the Autobots would have no reason to continue warring with them.
A.Patyk
Túrin wrote in message <37A8A2...@SPAMBLOCKknoledge.org>...
If Earth had no people on it, the
>Autobots would have *still* interfered with the Decepticons plans.
>Because the Decepticons plans include the destruction or enslavement of
>the Autobots!! They're fighting a war, the Autobots aren't the Fire
>Department out to rescue endangered humans.
Right, but protecting the humans is also a big aspect of their goals,
obviously. The fact, though, that the Autobots are also trying to save
themselves often seems lost in these arguments. It's funny that the Con
Revisionists paint a picture of "Autobot oppressors," when in fact the
Autobots were being attacked by the Decepticons...
Pyre[Rock]
>
> I am a Decepticon supporter, and I just have to say that I am so happy that
> Raksha stands up for the Decepticons, and what all us Decepticon supporters
> believe in. I know you probably aren't reading this, Raksha, but, thanks.
>
You know. A question has been running through my mind ever since the Con
panel at BotCon. All these Decepticon supporters claim that it's
perfectly OK what the Decepticons did to the humans in their conquest to
rule the galaxy. My question is, if the Decepticons were to arrive here
tomorrow and subject those same supporters to the torture and slavery and
general endangerment of human life that was seen throughout the series,
would it STILL be ok for the Decepticons to do it? I certainly wouldn't
think so. Any thoughts?
ViceGripX
>It takes two sides to fight a war. The Autobots and Decepticons are
oppressors
>of eachother. But, at least the Decepticons try to better themselves,
their
>species, and their planet. Most of the time the Decepticons stole energy
to
>attempt to revive Cybertron. The Autobots walked around trying to protect
>their hero image. And, can you honestly say that you,. put in the position
the
>Decepticons were in, that you would have done any differently?
Yes, as a matter of fact I would do it differently. I wouldn't just
take. I would ask. If there were communication problems, I would do my
best to solve them or at least try to get across what I needed. Let's face
it, not everyone in the universe speaks English ^_^
And, on a similar note, if the Autobots were to quit fighting and just
pledge peace, do you honestly think the Decepticons would not destry them?
Come one now. The Decepticons want energy, they take it. If someone gets
in their way, they'll do what they want to get by or though him/her. If
someone says, "Please stop hurting our planet," do you honestly expect me to
believe that they will respect the wishes of that person?
>Lets say that you end up on a world of, I dunno, hamsters, they can talk
though
> (they are about the size comparison, etc, to humans, as humans to
>transformers) but, anyway, Earth has been completely drained of nearly all
its
>energy, and you leave knowing that you must find more, or else your planet
is
>sure to cease to exist. You crash and land on this "hamster planet" wich
is
>ritch with the energy that you need. Now, can you honestly say that you
would
>go to the hamster's birthday partys (like the Autobots) or would you try
and
>furfil the original assignment, and attempt to revive your own planet (like
the
>Decepticons)
>think about it.
I would ask. It is not polite to take what is not yours without asking
permission to use it first. Think about it. If the Decepticons only wanted
energy, I doubt very seriously there would even be a war or an issue to
discuss. However, they also want to rule the galaxy with their rules and on
their terms. What *right* do they have to come on my planet and take my
world's energy so they can conquer the universe.
Think about it.
>I am not an Autobot hater.
No comment.
>I just think that the Decepticons have a valid view point, if you don't
shut
>them out as the box says "evil Decepticon"
They are *supposed* to be evil. They are *supposed* to be the bad guys.
Why is that so hard to comprehend?
>Plus, the Decepticons have strong charactorization. They show loyalty and
>devotion to eachother, not just hatred twoards the enemy that stands in the
way
>of their dreams. The stand true to themselves and never surrendor. I
could go
>on about this for forver, but now seems a good place to stop. I urge you
all
>to give the Decepticons a chance, instead of branding them as cut-out-evil,
>wich they plain straight up aren't.
Oh, and what kind of character is Reflector (for example)? He has been
shown to have an ego, but otherwise he's 2-dimensional. Thundercracker?
He's a (supposedly) loyal soldier. Laserbeak is a coward. Buzzsaw is as
2-dimensional as Decepticons get. And let's bring in Skullcruncher and some
of the characters from "Rebirth." Strong characterization my boron
compressor.
As for never surrendering? Well, you can't surrender if you're always
running away.
I give the Decepticons chances all the time. But, IMO, there are only a
few characters on either side that I really like and cannot honestly find
characterization in a lot of the ones I don't like.
I urge you all to give the Autobots a chance. They're not all the
goody-goody characters some make them out to be.
--
I'm happier than a Terrorcon with two connector pegs!!
Wear a Stampy around your neck, you'll get chicks!
You can't surrender if you're always running away...
+ /|(http://www.wildrun.com/)|\ Help! My .sig
+ p / |(email: v...@wildrun.com)| \ was stuck in a
+NNON| |NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN| |NN vise by
+ b \_|=========================|_/=O Dave Van Domelen!
TF Fancode: G+++ FR FW+ M++ #459 D+++ ADA N+++ W++ B+++ OP++ MUSH-- BC+++
CN++++ OM P277
Pyre[Rock]
>
> Earth has been completely drained of nearly all its
> energy, and you leave knowing that you must find more, or else your planet is
> sure to cease to exist. You crash and land on this "hamster planet" wich is
> ritch with the energy that you need. Now, can you honestly say that you would
> go to the hamster's birthday partys (like the Autobots) or would you try and
> furfil the original assignment, and attempt to revive your own planet (like the
> Decepticons)
> think about it.
Hasn't the thought occured to you, and by you I mean all the Decepticon
supporters that have your views, that perhaps it would be more feasable
and logical, not to mention just plain NICE, to ASK the inhabitants of the
planet for energy instead of just taking it and causing harm to those
inhabitants at the same time? Had the Decepticons done this then there
would have been no problem. After all the governments of the world seemed
perfectly happy to help out the Autobots when they asked for energy. It's
what *I* would have done in Megatron's place.
ViceGripX
>Pyre[Rock] wrote...
>: Hasn't the thought occured to you, and by you I mean all the Decepticon
>: supporters that have your views, that perhaps it would be more feasable
>: and logical, not to mention just plain NICE, to ASK the inhabitants of
the
>: planet for energy instead of just taking it and causing harm to those
>: inhabitants at the same time? Had the Decepticons done this then there
>: would have been no problem. After all the governments of the world
seemed
>: perfectly happy to help out the Autobots when they asked for energy.
It's
>: what *I* would have done in Megatron's place.
>
become
>dependant on an alien species you know nothing about. Second and most
>importantly, the humans *attacked the Decepticons on sight*. The instant
>they showed up at the oil rig, the humans attacked with as much force as
>they could muster.
Dependent? The Decepticons would never have become dependent on humans,
although depending on your point of view (that is what this is all about
anyway), they were anyway. They had to use Earth's energy and the energy
plants humans created to harness said energy. Did the Decepticons ever
build their own facility to collect energy without detriment to others?
Once that I recall. Usually, they were plotting the destruction of the
Autobots or how to drain Earth of *all* it's energy.
Face it, would you calmly say to a giant robot that landed on your oil
rig, "Hi! Can I help you?" no, I don't think so. Granted, the people
working the oil rig had no provocation to attack the Decepticons. But, the
Decepticons could have tried reasoning with them instead of fighting back.
>Now, compare that to the gentle way that Ravage drove off
>the two humans who approached their camp earlier. Ravage could easily have
>ripped the two humans apart, yet he did little more than shake them up.
"The gentle way that Ravage drove off the two humans" I'll bet you
neither had clean underpants when they left. If they hadn't driven off,
Ravage *would* have "ripped the two humans apart."
>When
>the Decepticons similarly went into human territory, they were attacked
with
>maximum force on sight when they were doing nothing more than standing
>around.
Standing around, eh? You're correct. But I don't see why Rumble had to
knock Sparkplug into the ocean. Do you? Actually, I know the answer to
that.
>Their response? Almost none. Who then is truely at fault for any
>possible relationship between the Decepticons and humans breaking down?
The Decepticons. Time and again, instead of making nice and asking for
what they want, they stole it. As Rock and I have both stated, had the
Decepticons asked, the people of Earth probably would have agreed to give
them the fuel they need. But, they wanted more than Energon. They wanted
control of the universe.
Túrin
> It takes two sides to fight a war.<snip>
Technically that's true. Without two sides, you only have a massacre or
enslavement. And that's much more desirable, right?
The problem with your statement is it appears to apply equal blame to
both sides in the conflict. But that's not true. SOMEBODY starts
shooting first. It takes two sides to form PEACE.
Cutie0155
>obviously. The fact, though, that the Autobots are also trying to save
>themselves often seems lost in these arguments. It's funny that the Con
>Revisionists paint a picture of "Autobot oppressors," when in fact the
>Autobots were being attacked by the Decepticons...
>
>
>
>
It takes two sides to fight a war. The Autobots and Decepticons are oppressors
of eachother. But, at least the Decepticons try to better themselves, their
species, and their planet. Most of the time the Decepticons stole energy to
attempt to revive Cybertron. The Autobots walked around trying to protect
their hero image. And, can you honestly say that you,. put in the position the
Decepticons were in, that you would have done any differently?
Lets say that you end up on a world of, I dunno, hamsters, they can talk though
(they are about the size comparison, etc, to humans, as humans to
transformers) but, anyway, Earth has been completely drained of nearly all its
energy, and you leave knowing that you must find more, or else your planet is
sure to cease to exist. You crash and land on this "hamster planet" wich is
ritch with the energy that you need. Now, can you honestly say that you would
go to the hamster's birthday partys (like the Autobots) or would you try and
furfil the original assignment, and attempt to revive your own planet (like the
Decepticons)
think about it.
I am not an Autobot hater.
I just think that the Decepticons have a valid view point, if you don't shut
them out as the box says "evil Decepticon"
Plus, the Decepticons have strong charactorization. They show loyalty and
devotion to eachother, not just hatred twoards the enemy that stands in the way
of their dreams. The stand true to themselves and never surrendor. I could go
on about this for forver, but now seems a good place to stop. I urge you all
to give the Decepticons a chance, instead of branding them as cut-out-evil,
wich they plain straight up aren't.
Marie
Liam Kavanagh
news:7o9sim$9bb$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
nothing like Sidious - atine) to tell Vadar to basically 'stut up!'
And did you see vadar running ahead to stop Tarkin? Nope, me neither.
--
Liam Kavanagh
UK comic scans at http://www.liamnet.demon,co.uk
Now available with added new look goodness
Skyflight
: Hasn't the thought occured to you, and by you I mean all the Decepticon
: supporters that have your views, that perhaps it would be more feasable
: and logical, not to mention just plain NICE, to ASK the inhabitants of the
: planet for energy instead of just taking it and causing harm to those
: inhabitants at the same time? Had the Decepticons done this then there
: would have been no problem. After all the governments of the world seemed
: perfectly happy to help out the Autobots when they asked for energy. It's
: what *I* would have done in Megatron's place.
There are two problems with this. One, it's not very good planning to become
dependant on an alien species you know nothing about. Second and most
importantly, the humans *attacked the Decepticons on sight*. The instant
they showed up at the oil rig, the humans attacked with as much force as
they could muster. Now, compare that to the gentle way that Ravage drove off
the two humans who approached their camp earlier. Ravage could easily have
ripped the two humans apart, yet he did little more than shake them up. When
the Decepticons similarly went into human territory, they were attacked with
maximum force on sight when they were doing nothing more than standing
around. Their response? Almost none. Who then is truely at fault for any
possible relationship between the Decepticons and humans breaking down?
--
Skyflight - Decepticon, ATTCM co-moderator, and Anti-Spam crusader
"And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon that is dreaming."
Any questions about ATTCM? http://www.concentric.net/~beavis/attcm
Skyflight
: No amount of rationalization changes the fact that harming others
: (especially innocents, like the humans in this case) in pursuit of your goal
: is WRONG.
Problem with that is, humans do it all the time. What did you have for
breakfast this morning? Yes yes, I know, cows don't count, they don't use
language or tools therefore are ok to eat. Maybe the Decepticons think that
since humans can't think in terms of millions of years and don't have space
flight they don't count. When you set things up that humans are above a
certain threshold and after that threshold there are just certain laws of
behavior that are universal and unchanging, of course the Decepticons are
going to be seen as bad. I disagree with those assumptions.
Skyflight
: The problem is that they DON'T treat it as a "What if." They treat it as
: the ONE TRUE REALITY, and the rest of us are "wrong." Again, *that* is the
: main problem.
: If someone says, "In my fan-created TF universe, Megatron is good," I reply
: with "That's an interesting twist on the storyline."
: However, if someone says, "In the official TF universe, Megatron and the
: Decepticons are good, and it is plain as day!" I say, "You're out of your
: mind."
Which strikes me as fairly ironic since that seems to be precisely what
you're doing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you post a bit earlier
that the Decepticons are evil, going so far as making little math equations?
That's a statement of fact with no qualifiers saying "This is only my
opinion of what good and bad is".
I constantly encounter the absolute arguement. "This is wrong, period, and
you're crazy for thinking otherwise." And yet, it's those exact same people
that get upset when those who disagree don't say it's just an opinion. Some
people want to post their opinions as facts ("Because they are! It's so
obvious!!") and yet get upset when Decepticon supporters don't use the
phrase "In my opinion which is just an opinion and no better or more valid
than anyone else's" after every other word. It goes something like this -
"It's obvious that this and that is wrong, it's a fact! What? You say it's
not?? Well, you're crazy! And how dare you state an opinion as fact?!"
If you read some of the past discussions, what you'll find is the *Con*
supporters constantly talk about opinions on good and evil being just
that - opinions. You'll also find a lot of articles that state
interpretations of lines and scenes being just that - subjective
interpretations that are no better or worse than anyone else's.
By contrast you'll find a lot of arguments in response that say there's only
one way to view any particular scene or line, there's only one set of morals
that are correct, and anything else is wrong. Go take a look, read some back
articles. Find out who acknowleges their opinions are just that, and who
says they're right and if you disagree you're crazy.
Now, granted, there are Bot supporters that don't assume their opinion is
the only true one. I don't mean to imply that there, I was speaking not of
Bot supporters as a whole, but the absolutists. I have yet to encounter any
Con supporter absolutists, but I suppose it's possible there are some.
Tengu
repo...@netaxs.com says...
> Heh. Defining something as "real" or not is a tricky bit of business.
> Of course, we all know that Megatron and Optimus et al. aren't "real" in
> the literal, everyday sense of the word. There are no giant alien
> shape-changing robots fighting a war on our world.
I'll simply stand by my statement that I personally don't like it
when Transformers characters are elevated to the level of real-life
personas. I don't believe that type of viewpoint to be wrong or immoral,
but it sure as heck would never be mine. To let a character run around
in your head while you're trying to understand them is one thing. I
believe it to be quite another to state that one's own version of a
character is the ultimate truth, and that all subsequent perspectives are
misguided or foolish.
Tengu.
cmq
>ripped the two humans apart, yet he did little more than shake them up.
I think Broadcast Standards and Practices might have had a little say in that!
cmq
>the two humans who approached their camp earlier.
I dunno, if I remember correctly, Ravage tackled the guy, knocking him off
his feet...Ravage is made of metal and being tackled by a robot pouncing on
you would probably hurt quite a bit! And I will grant you that Ravage was
probably confused, having never seen a 'fleshy' life form before, but does
anyone really think that the cartoon would ever have shown any of the
extreme levels of violence against human beings that the Deceps were fully
capable of? Of course not, it would have traumatized plenty of kiddies (not
to mention parents, senators, etc)!
Bottom line is that the restrictions of television amounted to heavy
softening of violence and dictated that stories end with the same ole good
triumphs over evil cliches which pretty much eliminated any real bite to the
series as a whole...
When
>the Decepticons similarly went into human territory, they were attacked
with
>maximum force on sight when they were doing nothing more than standing
>around. Their response? Almost none.
Well...maximum force (again if I remember correctly) was thrown
tools...considering the Deceps were made of metal to begin with, that would
be akin to someone tossing cotton balls (or flesh balls, but that's much
more disturbing a thought!) at your shin wouldn't it? Kinda like annoying
insects buzzing around you...
Skyflight
: It's just funny when they so clearly ignore a reality and embrace a
: misinterpretation.
*You* see it as a misinterpretation. If you watch the cartoon and come away
from it that the Decepticons are evil, that's your interpretation. It's
based on your moral system to begin with and what you thought about what you
saw. Say when Soundwave warns Megatron that Starscream is about to shoot
him. How does one interpret that? I would say Soundwave is Megatron's friend
and he's going to warn him just like a friend would. Someone else might look
at it and decide Soundwave has a deep and abiding hatred for Starscream and
will do anything to see him fail. Someone else might look at it and decide
Soundwave didn't even notice the attack and was trying to get Megatron's
attention about something else entirely. So, which of those is the right
one? None of them. They are all interpretations of what was actually shown.
It's what three people might think about what they see.
Now, I might explain more fully why I came to my particular interpretation,
and I might point out what I consider contradictions in someone else's
interpretation. "How could Soundwave not know about the attack when he was
looking right at Starscream?" But I don't claim mine is the only correct
one and everyone else is crazy.
Skyflight
[snipping most of the Nightbird stuff here, since my replies would likely
start another huge thread.]
: Come on, he clearly meant "... in a warrior!"
This is an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. Everyone is going
to have their own opinions as to what certain lines or scenes mean. However,
there are those who think their particular take on it is the only correct
one. "It's obvious this scene means X and this line means Y. If you can't
see it, you're wrong." For myself, I think one interpretation is just as
valid as another, provided there is no obvious factual mistake or logical
flaw. (Thinking Soundwave stayed on Cybertron and not Shockwave, or saying
Rumble is more intellegent than Frenzy because of his speech pattern for
examples).
: I've discussed, nearly argued, with people before about outlandish
: claims, such as one who said the dead robot who falls out of the
: chamber and almost smashes Daniel in "Dark Awakening" is
: Brawn (no Brawn lives/is dead stuff now, please), when it doesn't
: look anything like him at all. I mean, just look at the episodes! For
: all the flaws in the cartoon, the canonical facts are there. It's the
: fact that people seem to be so blind to what is right in front of them
: that I can't understand. But then again, I suppose there are none
: so blind as those who will not see.
The problem is the example you cite is one of a visual nature. Does the
robot look like Brawn or not? That is a quantifiable issue, the image looks
like Brawn anywhere from 0 to 100 percent. Character motivations not clearly
stated ARE NOT quantifiable true or false propositions though. There is no
objective measure of what percent Optimus is pompus or Dirge is annoying.
Those things are opinions plain and simple.
: In conclusion, Raksha and her followers have a right to their views,
: and if they want to, and they obviously do, they can even pass it
: off as canon. But what they cannot do, is force anyone into accepting
: this as the *truth*. For me, the truth will always be in the show, no
: matter how flawed it might be.
I've heard this a few times, that somehow Decepticon supporters are forcing
their views on others, which leaves my baffled. How is simply stating what
we think forcing anything on anyone, or in fact any different than what
anyone else is doing?
As for what the truth is, yes, the cartoon is right there and it shows what
it shows. (The same for the comic). The material itself *IS* the truth.
However, what we think about what we're seeing is subjective, and nobody is
more correct than anyone else.
Maximus Prime
My question is, if the Decepticons were to arrive here
> tomorrow and subject those same supporters to the torture and
slavery and
> general endangerment of human life that was seen throughout the
series,
> would it STILL be ok for the Decepticons to do it? I certainly
wouldn't
> think so. Any thoughts?
Raksha's a moral relativist. She would say it's okay for them, not
okay for her. As far as the other Decepticon Supporters, I have no
clue. . .but I'm in the middle of a fascinating debate with her at
the moment, and I have to say she is not the nutcase she is made out
to be. . .in fact, due to her views on morality, I would say that it
is impossible for her to believe anything about the Decepticons
which she does not already.
Maximus Prime
Earth has been completely drained of nearly all its
> energy, and you leave knowing that you must find more, or else
your planet is
> sure to cease to exist. You crash and land on this "hamster
planet" wich is
> ritch with the energy that you need. Now, can you honestly say
that you would
> go to the hamster's birthday partys (like the Autobots) or would
you try and
> furfil the original assignment, and attempt to revive your own
planet (like the
> Decepticons)
> think about it.
I have (and have to; 'tis the nature of me). I can honestly say
that I would go up to one of the little hamsters and ask them if
it's all right if I can have some of their abundant energy, to
revive my homeworld, which is dying. I would not steal and conquer
first; I would ask permission, politely, because I have the common
sense to know that you attract more bees with honey than you do with
vinegar. And you know what? My way's more efficient.
Maximus Prime
> Now, granted, there are Bot supporters that don't assume their
opinion is
> the only true one. I don't mean to imply that there, I was
speaking not of
> Bot supporters as a whole, but the absolutists. I have yet to
encounter any
> Con supporter absolutists, but I suppose it's possible there are
some.
I'm an Optimus Prime supporter (I've decided I really don't give a
Rattrap's waste disposal unit about the Autobots as a whole), and
I'm an Absolutist. And I'd daresay that there could be only very
few Absolutist Decepticon Supporters, and only then if those
Absolutists believe that the Law of Survival is what is Absolutely
Moral/Good. I think Decepticon Support is mostly contingent on a
belief in Moral Relativism. At least, from what I've seen and read
and heard.
Skyflight
: Whoa there partner, read my post again. What I am saying is that BOTH
: sides have gotten nasty in the past. I have not taken sides here. What I
: HAVE said is to let it go, and not get too upset either way.
I do get slightly upset when claims are made without support. You say both
sides have gotten nasty, I say that claim should be supported. It's not
difficult at all to find nasty things written about Raksha, just take a look
at this thread. But I would like to see one example cited of an unprovoked
attack made by her.
: To address your challenge to find these posts on Deja: I have searched
: through said service to find old posts of mine and others, and it
: doesn't go back far enough. The really good debates/discussions from
: before TFs were as big as they are now can't be accessed anymore.
Like Rob said, make sure you're using the right search. Deja does go back to
early 96.
Zobovor
>However, there are those who think their particular take on it is the
>only correct one. "It's obvious this scene means X and this line
>means Y. If you can't see it, you're wrong."
I agree with that. Silverbolt's interpretation of the line ("She's everything
I could have wanted!") referring to a new warrior is perfectly valid. If you
choose to believe that he's referring to a romantic partner, that
interpretation is equally valid.
>The problem is the example you cite is one of a visual nature. Does
>the robot look like Brawn or not? That is a quantifiable issue, the
>image looks like Brawn anywhere from 0 to 100 percent.
Well, other than being designed like a G1 Autobot, the robot in question (from
"Dark Awakening") looks like Brawn, oh, maybe 5 percent. <g>
>: In conclusion, Raksha and her followers have a right to their views,
>: and if they want to, and they obviously do, they can even pass it
>: off as canon. But what they cannot do, is force anyone into
>: accepting this as the *truth*. For me, the truth will always be in
>: the show, no matter how flawed it might be.
>I've heard this a few times, that somehow Decepticon supporters are
>forcing their views on others, which leaves me baffled. How is
>simply stating what we think forcing anything on anyone, or in fact
>any different than what anyone else is doing?
I don't think he's sayng everyone does that. But it would be easy for a
newcomer to read one of Raksha's posts or essays, for example, and come to
believe that "Enter the Nightbird" was a G1 episode about Megatron's romance
with a female Decepticon. Canonically speaking, there *are* no female
Decepticons, and if the love relationship (if it even exists) is hardly the
focal point of the story. Whether she doesn't realize how she comes off to
others, or is unconcerned by the misinformation she spreads, I can't say, and I
won't profess to speak for her.
As a Transformers historian of sorts, I do my best to answer questions by
newcomers about the cartoon by citing examples from the series, along with some
possible interpretations where necessary. Broadside is a great example. His
first appearance seems to be in "Five Faces of Darkness" part 2, in which we
see an unnamed Autobot craft, bearing a resemblance to Broadside's jet
mode--which is promptly destroyed. An illusionary Broadside later appears in
"The Killing Jar," but seems to be of Decepticon allegiance since Cyclonus
boards the craft willingly. Broadside shows up in "Thief in the Night"; is
featured prominently in "Carnage in C-Minor;" and gets a radically different
robot form (more closely resembling his toy) for "Grimlock's New Brain" and
"The Burdemn Hardest to Bear." Those are the facts.
It's possible that the craft in FFOD was not Broadside at all. Or maybe there
are two Transformers named Broadside, one an Autobot and one a Decepticon. Or
perhaps Broadside is a double-spy. The world may never know.
I, for one, would take offense if someone claimed that Broadside is "really" a
Decepticon, and that the robot from "New Brain" and "Burden" wasn't Broadside
at all; and that "Carnage" was wrong/a fantasy/took place in an alternate
universe. The idea of a Decepticon Broadside might be good fanfic fodder, but
to spread this sort of misinformation as "true" hurts the fan community and
confuses newcomers.
There's nothing wrong with stating what you think about the Decepticons or
anything else. The difference between putting forth your opinion and
presenting your opinion as immutable fact is a whopping big one, and you know
it.
ZobTrivia of the Day (8/5): Name three people who worked on both the G1 and BW
series?
Answer for 8/3: Brawn was the first toy with claws for hands.
Zobovor's Multi-Faceted Transformers Site!
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html
Pyre[Rock]
>
> Cutie0155 wrote:
> > It takes two sides to fight a war.<snip>
>
> Technically that's true. Without two sides, you only have a massacre or
> enslavement. And that's much more desirable, right?
>
> The problem with your statement is it appears to apply equal blame to
> both sides in the conflict. But that's not true. SOMEBODY starts
>
And, as we are shown in War Dawn, it was *Megatron* that started the 3rd
(or was it 4th) Great War. Not the Autobots.
Iggy Drougge
: >Right, but protecting the humans is also a big aspect of their goals,
: >obviously. The fact, though, that the Autobots are also trying to save
: >themselves often seems lost in these arguments. It's funny that the Con
: >Revisionists paint a picture of "Autobot oppressors," when in fact the
: >Autobots were being attacked by the Decepticons...
: It takes two sides to fight a war. The Autobots and Decepticons are oppressors
: of eachother. But, at least the Decepticons try to better themselves, their
: species, and their planet. Most of the time the Decepticons stole energy to
: attempt to revive Cybertron. The Autobots walked around trying to protect
: Decepticons were in, that you would have done any differently?
What would I have done, you wonder? I would have acted like the Autobots,
forming pacts with my new hosts, the humans. The Cybertronians are an
advanced race. If the Decepticons had not been so selfish, they could have
engaged in a mutual sharing with Earth's people. The Decepticons have
extremely advanced technology which far surpasses ours. Just look at
Cobra's fascination with the junk from the Ark which they received in
their deal with Megatron.
Instead, the Decepticons go about as their first point of order
dismantling a human nuclear plant.
I am absolutely certain, that the humans would share their energy with
both Autobots and Decepticons if their guests behaved and gave them
something in exchange for the energy.
: Lets say that you end up on a world of, I dunno, hamsters, they can talk though
: (they are about the size comparison, etc, to humans, as humans to
: transformers) but, anyway, Earth has been completely drained of nearly all its
: energy, and you leave knowing that you must find more, or else your planet is
: sure to cease to exist. You crash and land on this "hamster planet" wich is
: ritch with the energy that you need. Now, can you honestly say that you would
: go to the hamster's birthday partys (like the Autobots) or would you try and
: furfil the original assignment, and attempt to revive your own planet (like the
: Decepticons)
: think about it.
The Autobots I know don't go to birthday parties.
Nevertheless, would I have any right to steal that which belongs to the
hamsters? Would I have any more right to steal it in order to further a
war? No. Theft is wrong according to most moral codes.
: I am not an Autobot hater.
: I just think that the Decepticons have a valid view point, if you don't shut
: them out as the box says "evil Decepticon"
Well, that's what the box says. Evil. Evil Decepticons.
: Plus, the Decepticons have strong charactorization. They show loyalty and
: devotion to eachother, not just hatred twoards the enemy that stands in the way
: of their dreams. The stand true to themselves and never surrendor. I could go
: on about this for forver, but now seems a good place to stop. I urge you all
: to give the Decepticons a chance, instead of branding them as cut-out-evil,
: wich they plain straight up aren't.
Thieves and bloody murderers are thieves and murderers no matter how
strong characterisation they have. Still, the dominant quality among the
Decepticons are fear and greed. The succesful 'con leaders play on those
two concepts, too. They instill fear in their soldiers and speak to their
sense of greed.
--
Vi måste vara rädda om varandra
- det är det enda reciproka pronomen vi har.
Iggy Drougge
: Pyre[Rock] <the...@rica.net> wrote:
: : Hasn't the thought occured to you, and by you I mean all the Decepticon
: : supporters that have your views, that perhaps it would be more feasable
: : and logical, not to mention just plain NICE, to ASK the inhabitants of the
: : planet for energy instead of just taking it and causing harm to those
: : inhabitants at the same time? Had the Decepticons done this then there
: : would have been no problem. After all the governments of the world seemed
: : perfectly happy to help out the Autobots when they asked for energy. It's
: : what *I* would have done in Megatron's place.
:
: There are two problems with this. One, it's not very good planning to become
: dependant on an alien species you know nothing about. Second and most
: importantly, the humans *attacked the Decepticons on sight*. The instant
: they showed up at the oil rig, the humans attacked with as much force as
: the two humans who approached their camp earlier. Ravage could easily have
: ripped the two humans apart, yet he did little more than shake them up. When
: the Decepticons similarly went into human territory, they were attacked with
: maximum force on sight when they were doing nothing more than standing
: possible relationship between the Decepticons and humans breaking down?
It's even worse planning to actually make oneself the enemy of one's host
species. They could have actually made an effort.
As for the human reception, what would you do if 10-metre giants were
approaching the oil rig on which you were working? What would you expect
them to want?
Some basic humility on behalf of the Decepticons would be in its place.
You don't approach a bank with a gun in your hand and expect a friendly
treatment. Similarily, you hold a low profile if you're an uninvited
guest.
Iggy Drougge
: A.Patyk <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
: : No amount of rationalization changes the fact that harming others
: : (especially innocents, like the humans in this case) in pursuit of your goal
: : is WRONG.
:
: Problem with that is, humans do it all the time. What did you have for
: breakfast this morning? Yes yes, I know, cows don't count, they don't use
: language or tools therefore are ok to eat. Maybe the Decepticons think that
: since humans can't think in terms of millions of years and don't have space
: flight they don't count. When you set things up that humans are above a
: certain threshold and after that threshold there are just certain laws of
: behavior that are universal and unchanging, of course the Decepticons are
: going to be seen as bad. I disagree with those assumptions.
Well, the problem for the Decepticons is, that they are genetically and
culturally identical with the Autobots, who actually manage to uphold
meaningful relations with the humans. The Decepticon attitude towards
humans is closer to that of colonial lords towards Africans than that of
humans towards cows.
SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo himself
> Skyflight wrote:
>
> >However, there are those who think their particular take on it is the
> >only correct one. "It's obvious this scene means X and this line
> >means Y. If you can't see it, you're wrong."
>
> I agree with that. Silverbolt's interpretation of the line ("She's everything
> I could have wanted!") referring to a new warrior is perfectly valid. If you
> choose to believe that he's referring to a romantic partner, that
> interpretation is equally valid.
It is. And if truth be told, it isn't even explicitly said that he was talking
about a new warrior. So in actual fact, I can't canonically claim that
was in fact what he meant. But I dare say that it would seem that way
to most people.
But as long as he didn't say "Ahh... finally I've found someone to love...
someone to share my life with", no one can say that the idea of romance
is a *fact*.
> >The problem is the example you cite is one of a visual nature. Does
> >the robot look like Brawn or not? That is a quantifiable issue, the
> >image looks like Brawn anywhere from 0 to 100 percent.
>
> Well, other than being designed like a G1 Autobot, the robot in question (from
> "Dark Awakening") looks like Brawn, oh, maybe 5 percent. <g>
My point being that to *emphatically* say that it *beyond a doubt*
is Brawn will be contested. At least by me. :)
> >I've heard this a few times, that somehow Decepticon supporters are
> >forcing their views on others, which leaves me baffled. How is
> >simply stating what we think forcing anything on anyone, or in fact
> >any different than what anyone else is doing?
>
> I don't think he's sayng everyone does that.
You're right, I'm not. I just find myself reacting to the claims of some of
the Decepticon supporters that a lot of of us are incapable of individual
thought because we disagree with this view or that view. Again, I would
never deny anyone the right their view, just don't say it should be obvious
to everyone else, and if it isn't, there's something wrong with them. If I
have said anything that seemed to suggest the same is the case with Raksha
or anyone else of her persuation, then I apologize.
Oh, and I'm not ignoring your reply to my post, Skyflight. It just hasn't
showed up on my server yet. :p
Rikard Bakke - who has always believed in agreeing to disagree.
Swo...@xoommail.com
The Cybertron Chronicle
http://members.xoom.com/Swoop73/
Transformers Fan Code
G++ FR FW+ #66 D+ AA+ N++ W++ B++ OQP BC98+ BC99+ CN+++ OM+
Zobovor
Raksha wrote:
>You want to dump the blame on me behind my back on a >newsgroup that I'm
well-known to normally avoid, because according >to you I "made an enemy
through e-mail flames" ... well, did it ever >occur to you that I was attacked
*first*? And that's been the story >every single time. I will argue the
*issues* vehemently, but never >once have I resorted to personal attacks
*until* someone else did so >first.
Fine. But Skyflight's challenge was to give an example of "the insults that
Raksha or 'Con supporters in general hurl out," so I did. Maybe the reason
he's so sick of hearing about it is because it happens all too frequently...
As for going behind your back, I knew that you still read the newsgroup because
you still cross-post TLY and Con-Quest announcements. I make it a point not to
say anything on the newsgroups *or* in private e-mails that I'm afraid would
make its way back to me at a later date.
>A lot of the garbage that goes on here,
>I don't know about and I don't want to know about, but I do hear of it
>on occasion, and you better believe I'm not going to just roll over
>and take it every single time. And yet you want to insult me for
>that?
I never meant to insult you. I was just stating the facts; I'm genuinely sorry
if I struck a nerve...
>Thinking that I'm not going to see it? How do you justify in
>your mind that it's "wrong" for me to defend myself, and yet it's not
>"wrong" for me to be continuously attacked and slandered by a
>bunch of people who for the most part don't even know what they're
>talking about?
I agree that the gang of Raksha-bashers, as a whole, have probably never met
you and are only jumping on the bandwagon because they're sheep. (My words,
folks, not hers.) The perpetual, baseless flames against you are a travesty
and I don't blame you for being angry.
I never said that you shouldn't defend yourself. What I said was that you
choose not to defend yourself on this forum, even though you're fully capable
of doing so. Now that you mention it, however--why deign to address the issue
now, when you've ignored (or remained blissfully unaware of) virtually the same
attacks in the past? If the infamous "cesspool" comment is any indication,
you're just like the people who start these strings--you want to stir the
waters a little. You have the luxury of striking the flint and then running
back to the safe haven of ATTCM before the tinderbox explodes. The rest of us
have to pick up the pieces. Even if it were possible to create such a
disruption in your newsgroup, I don't think I would ever stoop quite so low.
>And then you also want to fault people who stand up for my
>viewpoints -- perhaps because, gods forbid, they happen to *share*
>them? Who are you to forbid those people their right to expression,
>just because *you* don't happen to agree with it?
No. Everyone has the right to express themselves on this newsgroup--even
people such as yourself who abandonded it and left it for dead. We don't have
moderators here to decide who gets to post and who doesn't. Every Transfan is
welcome on ATT.
What I object to, madam, is the rabid defenders who pick apart piece by piece,
intellectualizing as they go, every anti-Decepticon or anti-Raksha post ever
written in this newsgroup. Every time someone answers the call and fuels the
literal flame, the proverbial flame grows stronger. It angers me when people
are more concerned with proving their point and being right than with being
civil to others. I am guilty of doing so now, and I offer no excuses for it.
I am a hypocrite. For the moment, my need for expression has overcome my
desire to maintain the peace.
>Has it occured to
>you at all that it's not a defense of *me* but rather a defense of the
>*Decepticon worldview* which we happen to share? But oh, you've
>got to rationalize it in some way, don't you, because otherwise you
>couldn't comprehend how anyone could "really believe that stuff".....
Raksha, who the hell are you arguing with? It sure ain't me, because I never
spouted any drivel about how no one could "really believe that stuff."
I don't have a problem with you or your perception of the Decepticons. I seem
to recall Skyflight's post in direct defense of you, but I could be mistaken.
> I will say flat-out that every single "arguement" I've seen in
>this thread can be responded to and refuted easily, but I'll be >damned if I'm
going to waste that much time in this cesspool. Yes, >there's that word again.
Cesspool.
I find it strange that you just swore up and down that you don't attack someone
unless provoked, and yet... here it is.
I take personal offense at this comment. I was willing to forgive you your
tresspasses regarding what was said in the past, but today, you happen to be
attacking something very near and dear to my heart. ATT is my net.home, and I
will defend it as long as it exists somewhere in cyberspace. For you to duck
your serpentine head in here long enough to defame this newsgroup and its
posters is appaling. In self-defense or not, you haven't just insulted me.
You've encompassed every fan who frequents ATT--decent people like Ben Yee,
JHooksX, Tengu, ViceGripX, and Blue-Jackal, whom I respect far more than you.
Whether the aforementioned posters take offense at your remarks, I don't care
to speculate. And I don't mean to imply that they are siding with me--I don't
really know one way or the other; I haven't asked. But I ask you--has it ever
occurred to you how better this newsgroup would be--how far fewer arguments and
flames would have begun--if *you* had never existed?
>You people want to discuss the *issues*? Then e-mail me, or
>post to ATTCM. Flames and insults will be laughed at and ignored.
Simultaneously? That's a neat trick.
>I'm revolted at the cowardice that I see displayed here, the people
>who don't have the courage to speak to me in person if they
>disagree with my takes, or perhaps they just lack the ability
>to rationally state their own arguements, so they resort to flames
>behind my back.
Since this is a response to my post, and you didn't give any indication that
you're referring to anyone other than me, you must be talking about me. I
don't flame people behind their backs. I have no doubt one of your loyal
followers will forward this message to you, since *you* won't have the courage
to read the rest of this string and see what kind of responses you sparked.
>People who seem to have forgotten, or perhaps never
>realized, that I'm constantly giving *concrete evidence* for my point
>of view, which is *right there* in the episodes. I have never made up
>a scene or a line of dialoge which I point to as evidence -- it's
>*there*.
Uh-huh. I've read your fanfics; I know you possess a creative mind. It's very
easy to take a single line of dialogue and create an entire mini-universe
around it. Hell, I took a couple of bloopers about the Constructicons' origins
and turned it into a 53-page fanfic. That doesn't mean I try to pass off as
canon any of the stuff I wrote, even though I could make a good argument that
every major event that happened in "A Thing of the Past" is supported by the
episodes themselves.
> I didn't make up that Megatron said of Nightbird, word for
>word, "She's everything I've always wanted;"
Which could easily refer to Nightbird as a ninja warrior, not a lover...
>I didn't make up that Megatron time and time again forgives >Starscream and
lets him get away with the most horrendous transgressions,
Until he killed Starscream. Oh, wait, in your little universe that didn't
really happen. Silly me.
>or that Megatron is constantly taking the safety of his warriors into
>account; I didn't make up that Shockwave wished Megatron a safe >journey
through the space bridge
No, but you apparently missed the facetious tone in his voice...
> and stated proudly that he "served only Megatron";
In a different episode, under different circumstances. You make it sound like
that was all once sentence.
>I didn't make up that Skywarp and Thundercracker spoke to each
>other in a friendly manner and expressed an understanding of one
>another's feelings; etc. etc. etc.
>It's *there* for anyone to see. So how is that "revisionism"?
It's revisionism when you put an entirely new spin that what was obviously
intended by the line of dialogue or event in question. It's revisionism when I
say that Prime died in the movie because Dion (read: Ironhide) wasn't around.
It's revisionism when you say the Decepticons are really misunderstood heroes.
There's nothing inherently wrong with rewriting the canon to suit your personal
viewpoint, as long as you don't go around trying to pass off your "improved"
version as the real one.
>I'm not re-writing the episodes -- I'm pointing to *what's there.*
Or what you wish was there...
>And if there are people who are pissed off about it, then maybe they >should
take issue with the writers of the episodes, and not with me, >because *that*
is what was shown.
Not just the episode writers. The people who wrote the comics, the people who
wrote the tech specs, and the people who printed "Heroic Autobot" and "EVIL
Decepticon" on every single G1 Transformers toy package and instructions
pamphlet ever produced...
> Now, if you'd like to believe that the Decepticons are "evil"
>because they steal energy from the humans, then that's your perogative-- but
that is only *your* human-centered view of the situation.
Okay, no urban legends here. These are Raksha's words. If *my* view of the
situation is a "human-centered" one, then what in the blazes is *yours*?
You're not a Decepticon, Raksha, no matter how desperately you'd like to be
one. You're a human being too, just like me and the tens of thousands of other
Transfans out there.
>Where is it determined that the act of stealing energy from humans
>is by its nature "evil"? Isn't it also *heroic* because it advances the
>Decepticon cause and allows them to forge a better future for their
>own kind and their descendents? And aren't the Autobots from that
>standpoint *evil* in trying to continuously deny the Decepticons their
>needed life-giving fuel -- unless of course the Decepticons were to
>throw away their very nature and philosophy and cave in to >*Autobot* ideals?
And because the Decepticons refuse to do that
>and stand their ground with great courage, nobility, and strength of
>character, and make no apologies for going through the universe
>their own way, they're slandered as "evil"??
Admittedly, I'm only a human being, so I can only apply this to what I know
about my own culture. But try replacing the word "Decepticons" with
"criminals" or "murderers" or whatever suits your fancy, and replace the word
"Autobots" with "police." The above argument would never hold up in court.
I'm not a psychologist; I haven't the vaguest notion what sort of years-old
trauma you must have endured that threw you into this delusional, world-hating
mental state. I don't think I want to know. I guess I'm glad for your sake
that--for all that you feel is wrong with it--the Transformers universe has, at
least, offered you an escape of sorts from your life. It's both ironic and
pitiful that if any of this fantasy were real, Megatron would squash you in a
heartbeat for profesing to know what goes on in the mind of a Decepticon. For
all your pomposity, you're still just a feeble flesh creature whose primitive
mind isn't capable of understanding the Decepticon cause, and never will.
>Rather like attacking someone for *defending* themselves, isn't it?
>I honestly thought there were a few more rational people
>hereabouts still, but obviously I was wrong.
Nah, all the rational people left this group years ago. Nobody left but us
chickens. Bawk.
>Don't bother responding to me here on the newsgroup, because I'm
>once again no longer going to read the posts and threads here,
>regardless of what happens to land in my mailbox. Any public
>attacks in response to this post, can be considered yet more
>cowardly flames by those who don't dare to speak to me rationally
>and calmly where I will in fact see what they have to say. Go
>ahead. Show more of your true colors, ATT. I don't care one way or
>the other.
Raksha, folks. Let's give her a hand. Clap. Clap.
I'm not sure why I posted this to the newsgroup. Maybe I'm as bad as everyone
else here and feel the need to defend myself. Or maybe I'm kicking myself for
being so goddamned civil in an e-mail to you, only to find this post defiling
my good name and the reputation of alt.toys.transformers. Maybe I need to get
some sleep. Or, to quote First Aid, maybe I'm just strange.
BW Sidecutter
renewable energy sources insteasd of usuing up irreplaceable ones over and
over.
BW Sidecutter, Decepticon Warrior /
Nuk Raxe, Jedi Knight
A.Patyk
Zobovor wrote in message <19990805053342...@ng-cm1.aol.com>...
>I'm not sure why I posted this to the newsgroup. Maybe I'm as bad as
everyone
>else here and feel the need to defend myself. Or maybe I'm kicking myself
for
>being so goddamned civil in an e-mail to you, only to find this post
defiling
>my good name and the reputation of alt.toys.transformers. Maybe I need to
get
>some sleep. Or, to quote First Aid, maybe I'm just strange.
>
Not at all. You neatly and effectively summarized many valid points. The
official TF universe will always be one of "Heroic Autobot" and "Evil
Decepticon," no matter how much someone wants to explain that fact away
through out-of-context interpretations. A few exceptions may exist on
either side (check out Repugnus and Thundercracker's tech specs, for
example), but on the whole the series is clearly delineated between "Good"
and "Evil."
A.Patyk
>A.Patyk <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>: The problem is that they DON'T treat it as a "What if." They treat it as
>: the ONE TRUE REALITY, and the rest of us are "wrong." Again, *that* is
the
>: main problem.
>
>: If someone says, "In my fan-created TF universe, Megatron is good," I
reply
>: with "That's an interesting twist on the storyline."
>
>: However, if someone says, "In the official TF universe, Megatron and the
>: Decepticons are good, and it is plain as day!" I say, "You're out of
your
>: mind."
>
>Which strikes me as fairly ironic since that seems to be precisely what
>you're doing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you post a bit earlier
>that the Decepticons are evil, going so far as making little math
equations?
>That's a statement of fact with no qualifiers saying "This is only my
>opinion of what good and bad is".
Right, because that was a clear-cut representation of the OFFICIAL TF
universe, which is pretty unequivocal about who is good and who is bad. In
*my* universe, I may believe that Galvatron decides to become an Autobot,
etc. That doesn't change the fact that Galvatron is still an Evil
Decepticon in the official cannon, does it?
The statement "Decepticons are Evil" or is not a statement of opinion when
referring to the show/comics/tech specs/etc. It is a statement of FACT. No
amount of slippery excuses will change the fact that Hasbro created the
Decepticons to be evil, and wrote them to as such. You may form your own
feelings on how it should have been, what Soundwave REALLY meant when he
said this, etc. You may choose to ignore Soundwave's tech specs and focus
on a few lines of his dialogue instead. But it doesn't change the source
material, which was inescapably and simply designed to have the evil
villains (Decepticons) fight the noble heroes (Autobots). It was a kids'
cartoon!
A.Patyk
Skyflight wrote in message <7odc5e$3jk$3...@news.panix.com>...
>And, as we are shown in Desertion of the Dinobots, that was only the latest
>of a long cycle of war and peace. The history disc clearly states this, and
>it also says that each side had alternately been in charge during the time
>of peace. The Autobots quite clearly were in charge during War Dawn. To
>blame Megatron for the war on Cybertron just doesn't fit with what we're
>shown. He only initiated the latest flare-up, and for good reason.
What good reason?
A.Patyk
Skyflight wrote in message <7odbpa$3jk$2...@news.panix.com>...
>He did give them a good scare, that was the point. And I would urge you to
>watch this scene again, because it's important. Ravage had a human pinned
to
>the ground with his mouth poised and ready, and he let the human go. He
>watched them drive away because he had scared them off with a minimum of
>force. He didn't use his teeth, he didn't use his missiles, he didn't use
>his vastly superior strength to simply break their necks. He growled and
>snarled, scared them a little, let them get to their car, and watched them
>drive away. He had all the time in world and certainly had the means to
kill
>the humans, and he did not. It was unnecessary.
>
I think you miss the point that this was an 80s kids' cartoon. There's no
way they would show Ravage doing ANY of those things. It certainly doesn't
say anything about Ravage's willingness or ability to do them...
Neale Davidson
>would be, and didn't care. They showed themselves to be fearful and
>agressive and hostile to the Decepticons. And the Cons barely
>acknowleged them.
Hah! To quote from the series. "I am Megatron - you shall do exactly as I
say..." THEN the humans, facing giant robots about to enslave
them, attacked with what they had.
Neale