[COMIC] Jackpot's Big-Ass Treatise on BotContinuity (Cheek 2 of 2)
Jackpot
the BotCon comics. Now, we try to figure out how it all fits together.
<> INTERPRETATION <>
TIME-TRAVEL
Before we can determine how consistent this saga is with other canon
continuities, we have to know how consistent it is with itself. And,
well... hopefully this will be the last of Furman's time-travel
creations, since it's certainly his most convoluted. As bizarre
and inverted as his UK Time Wars stories could be, he's never before
presented a timeline that actually wipes itself out. As novel as this
idea might be, it sadly flies in the face of a classic time-travel
paradox: If you do something in the past that undoes your own future,
and the effects can catch up to you while you're still in the past, then
you'll be forever caught in an oscillating causality loop. To whit:
When the Dark Essence was caused to vanish from prehistoric Earth,
Shokaract ceased to exist because his own "birth" had been nullified,
and everything he did in the Beast Wars was also erased. But that
clearly causes a problem; his involvement in the Beast Wars was,
indirectly, what *caused* the Dark Essence to vanish in the first place.
Had he not started sending Heralds into the past, the Covenant
wouldn't have followed them, Megatron wouldn't have attacked the
Essence, and the Covenant wouldn't have helped Megs finish the job.
Thus, when the timeline is wiped clean of Shokaract's influence, we find
the Dark Essence safe and sound again, waiting to be found by the
Hunter, and suddenly we're back where we started from.
I see no solution to this dilemma. To add to the strangeness, Shokaract
was afraid for the Essence's well-being before he ever started monkeying
with the past. This is very confusing, since the Beast Wars were
already a part of history at that point. (For instance, Windrazor
instantly recognized dragon Megs.) It's not as though BW was somehow a
new development in the past that was still unfolding when Shokaract took
notice. They'd already come and gone in their entirety. Sending an
agent into that time to safeguard the Dark Essence is pointless; it's
like sending someone back to make sure Winston Churchill isn't
assassinated. Since we already *know* that Churchill wasn't killed,
mucking with time can only a) make things worse or b) have no effect at all.
And to make things even a little more wacky, Shokaract was focused on
the "dimensional key," which seems to mean Apelinq's personal Transwarp
device - despite the fact that it had *nothing* to do with the Dark
Essence's eventual peril! However, is it possible that this is a clue?
Could it be that BW-as-we-know-it wasn't the threat at all? What if
Apelinq's appearance in the past was the temporal anomaly that needed to
be stopped? Could we suppose that, had 'Linq gone unmolested by
Shokaract's interference, he would've ended up disrupting the Dark
Essence with his transwarp powers somehow?
Unfortunately, I have to answer "no." The problem is that, once Apelinq
made it to the past, I don't see how Shokaract would've had the
opportunity to do anything about it. If it was Apelinq's destiny to
send the Dark Essence away from prehistoric Earth, then the moment he
appeared there, all of the actions he was going to take would instantly
manifest themselves forward through history, and Shokaract's whole life
would blink out of existence before he even knew there was a lick of
danger. It defies all logic that at some arbitrary point in Shokaract's
reign, he suddenly becomes aware that Apelinq would destroy him in the
past, then is able to use time-travel to change those past events after
Apelinq had already arrived. It's like an elderly JFK sending someone
back to stop Lee Harvey Oswald from carrying out his own assassination.
Since the assissination HAPPENED, there *is* no elderly JFK around to
do that.
So, in conclusion, the BonCon time-travel scenario is royally screwed.
But, since BW's time-travel framework was just as screwed before these
stories ever came along, I suppose this sin must be forgiveable.
CONNECTIONS TO OTHER SERIES
The two obvious and (more or less) straightforward connections are to BW
and BMach. Everything up to and including "Reaching the Omega Point" is
firmly grounded in BW, "Apelinq's Journals" form a bridge between BW and
BMach, and "The Wreckers" launches from BMach and post-BW territory.
Both series are put at a fair distance from the BC tales: The
apocalyptic events of "Omega Point" simply erase themselves from
history, so we don't need to worry about squeezing them in-between
episodes; also, the BMach interactions between Primal and the Wreckers
end up getting wiped from Primal's memory by the Oracle, who wants to
maintain secrecy about its various errands. So the more conspicuous
events - the ones that would presumably have made a big splash in the TV
storylines - are given buffers that explain their cartoon absence.
However, some factors are left in the open, as though we're meant to
imagine they were there behind the scenes the whole time. For example,
Fractyl, Packrat, Onyx Primal, Vicegrip, and Apelinq are all supposedly
there during the Beast Wars, permanently offscreen for some reason.
Apelinq is the only one with a solid alibi: He's a visitor from the
future who goes out of his way to stay uninvolved. But no one else even
has an *origin* presented in the stories, much less a reason for being
invisible to cartoon viewers. I consider this to be a fairly large area
of conflict - if not quite flat-out contradiction - with BW, since BW's
small cast is an important element to its stories. Oftentimes,
situations in that show necessitate ALL of the characters' involvement,
and the complete lack of acknowledgement of four Beasties stretches
credibility, to say the least.
Outside of that, though, things stay fairly true to BW: The
late-third-season setting is consistent, from Megatron's dragon form to
Optimal Optimus to the Maximal base by the Ark. The post-BW events,
with the Vok creating Primal Prime and resurrecting Airazor and Tigatron
while an undead Tarantulas plots away, is certainly plausible as a sort
of "BW season 4." Plus BMach remains mostly uncontradicted, from
Megatron's viral attack on Cybertron to the season-2 "Wreckers"
storyline. Though it's worth noting that the Shokaract-era future is
hard to place in relation to BMach. I strongly suspect that it's after
BMach, since BW was well-known at that point (implying that Primal & co.
had returned already and spread their story), plus Apelinq had already
time-traveled when Shokky started getting involved. However, given the
jacked-up, nonsensical mass of contradictions that passes for a
time-travel "theory" in these stories, it's nigh-impossible to make any
sort of logical deductions.
The only other major sticky point is the Primus origin: It's stressed
in every retelling that the asteroid-that-would-be-Cybertron was
lifeless before Primus entered it. We hear it again in the thoughts of
Leonicus, de facto leader of the Covenant, and being that his sole duty
is to know EVERYTHING about Primus's plan as it unfolds, I would trust
his words. So does this square with BMach's premise of Cybertron having
once been a world with organic life? And what's up with the chewy green
center?
I suggest that the asteroid was, indeed, lifeless, but Primus introduced
*organic* elements when he first began his work. The green goop is,
perhaps, actually part of Primus's essence, which is why it has strong
effects on sparks. He succeeded in creating a biosphere with complex
creatures, but he either decided to scrap it and go with robots, or the
robots came to him (via a Quint invasion, perhaps?). Whatever the
cause, the original biological setup was overrun by the mechanical, and
the eons erased any common knowledge of it. This actually would present
something of a rationale for Cybertron's technorganic destiny: Primus
had always wanted to create organic life, but for whatever reason,
robotic was his only viable option for ages. So when the opportunity
arose (after Unicron's destruction, maybe?), forces began to push TF
life in a direction more suited to Primus's original intent.
All theory, of course, but the point is that BMach and the BotCon
stories don't necesarily conflict; in fact, they can add to and enrich
each other.
The real question is... how do the BC stories relate to G1? Let's see a
rundown of all the references to past continuity:
MARVEL COMICS:
1) Primus/Unicron deific origin story
2) Swoop's level of intelligence
3) Megatron's existence as Megatron in J'nwan
4) The idea of a Cybertronian Autobot team called "the Wreckers," with
Springer involved in the past
5) Quake
6) Cyclonus and Skywarp coexisting during BMach
7) The Vok's Swarm-related history
G1 'TOON:
1) Unicron's destruction in 2005
2) Daniel Witwicky and Arcee (though we see him as a teenager - outside
of Arcee's head!)
3) Wheelie
4) Nightbird
5) Hot Spot's existence, despite his apparently successful attempt to
completely destroy himself in G2.
6) Alpha Trion / Vector Sigma
7) Defcon
Now, since BW and BMach were a hodgepodge of cartoon and comic
references, the BC stories are actually right in step. But certain
elements have very far-reaching implications - primarily, the Primus
origin. Does this bar the BC continuity from existing in the G1 'toon
continuity? Not necessarily. Since we only know the Quint origin from
Rodimus's near-death acid trip and a few words from the Quints, we can't
say that all of our historical information is necessarily complete and
unbiased. Primus can be inserted into the background, a cosmic
puppeteer who manipulated/allowed the Quints to bring about his own
designs. It's not the most elegant solution, but it is a viable one.
The other comic influences are smaller hurdles to pass. For instance,
we can propose that Swoop simply got a mental boost at some point (like
those funky headphone dealies that made the Dinobots more than growling
animals to begin with). And Galvatron could eventually have been purged
of his insanity and Unicronian tampering, becoming Megatron again. The
existence of "Wreckers" and Quake are no problem at all, since they
contradict nothing. Skywarp is trickier... but perhaps his mind still
existed somewhere within Scourge or a Sweep or the other "Cyclonus" or
whoever it was he was turned into, waiting to reassert itself.
Finally, the Vok/Swarm connection is certainly a BIG addition to the
cartoon universe, but not an impossible one. The basic notion of a TF
race that split off during the four-million-year gap, its reproductive
methods creating a vicious by-product, is certainly allowable. The
entire G2 storyline can't exist as such within the 'toon world, but the
core plot threads are plausible.
My conclusion: The BC stories can coexist with the entirety of the G1
cartoon, but it takes a fair amount of shoehorning to get there.
What about the G1 comics, then? Well, the Primus origin and Vok/Swarm
history certainly make for a smooth connection. But Unicron's 2005
destruction is an odd one, since he was destroyed in the early nineties
in the comic universe. However, in the UK comics, we saw a
now-unreachable future in which Unicron simply wouldn't die, whether
he suffered a traditional detonation in the Movie or was absorbed into
the Matrix later on. So while his early-nineties death seemed pretty
final, there are only so many hard-and-fast declarations you can make
about a god, and it's not inconceivable that he eventually returned
somehow over a decade later.
Most of the cartoon-character appearances are innocuous, but one that
bears close examination is Daniel. And we find that his appearance as a
teenager / young adult in "the not-too-distant future" is consistent
with the idea that Spike fathered him in the early nineties, before he
was atomized in G2. Or, since Buster was the Spike-surrogate for many
years in the comics, we might suppose that the BC Daniel is HIS son instead.
Hot Spot's presence can be explained by the simple notion that his own
G2 suicide wasn't as complete as he'd intended. He had been trying to
prevent Cobra from snagging an ounce of Cybertronian tech from his body,
which implies to me an absolute vaporization. But intentions and
results don't always coincide, and it may be that his explosion would've
left some key tech intact, had Cobra stopped to check. Luckily, though,
they moved on, and the Autobots were able to recover his brain module.
Or so it may have come to pass.
Then there's Alpha Trion. If this is in the comic universe, then we
really have no clear idea of who he is or why he's in the Oracle. He's
only referred to as "one who knows all... who is all," who was "once the
guiding hand to Primes througout the ages." Even if we assume he's the
wise-old-mentor figure as presented in the 'toon, his journey into
Vector Sigma would've had to have occurred under different circumstances
- the Aerialbots were given life by the Matrix in the comic. Or,
perhaps, he's not actually inside the Oracle at all, but he died in the
normal fashion and is just being recalled from the AllSpark. At this
point, there are few facts to go on.
My conclusion: There are fewer contradictions to circumvent if we put
the BC stories into the G1 comic continuity; however, we need to add a
lot of extra material (mostly in the form of 'toon characters and their
backstories) to get there.
<> THE BIG PICTURE <>
Inasmuch as BW and BMach can exist in either of the two main G1 worlds,
so is the BC universe similarly malleable. However, given the enormous
amount of retconning and/or history-padding necessary to achieve either
cartoon-compliance or comic-compliance, I find it most tasteful to
assume what Bob and Larry said all along: That G1-as-we-know-it does
not exist in the Beast universe as solid history, but rather as
legendary tales. When we watch old G1 tapes or read old G1 stories,
we're not getting factual accounts of pre-Beast events. In fact, the
G1-era snippets in "The Wreckers" are probably the ONLY competely valid
historical scenes.
But this is just my interpretation. There *are* rationales available to
incorporate either the G1 'toon or comic, if you really want to. But
the opposite is also true: If you want to keep the BC stories separate
from G1, that's also allowable. And though it would be exceedingly
difficult to excise BW and BMach from the BC backstory, I don't think
the viewer is *obligated* to accept the BC tales when they watch the
Beast shows. For while the BC stories were certainly written to mesh
with BW and BMach, BW and BMach were *not* written to mesh with the BC
stories. The same can be said for the two Beast shows - BMach was
intended to follow from BW, but BW wasn't intended to lead into BMach.
So, in choosing one's own preferred view of the TF saga, one is not
required to accept BW into G1, BMach into BW, or BC into any or all of
it. And new fiction is not bound by all of these elements, either.
Personally, I like my TF universe large, and I rather enjoy how the BC
stories expand the Beast world. I'll definitely appreciate any
fanfiction, theorizing, or even official TF media that tries to work on
that level. But in the end, it's all for fun, it's all a bunch of
stories, and you're free to judge the evidence for yourself. I just
hope to have given as complete and straightforward a presentation of
said evidence and its implications as possible.
No matter HOW BIG an ass may result!
- Jackpot
--
| To contact me, please e-mail aquamandible [at] yahoo [dot] com.
|
| _ _ ______ http://spektakle.com ______ _ _
"The `k's are for the kwality!"
Túrin
>
> In part 1, we looked at what major continuity-related shit went down in
> the BotCon comics. Now, we try to figure out how it all fits together.
<snippity>
Never read any of the Botcon comics, but I enjoyed your posts
nonetheless. Just wanted to let you know. Carry on. Nothing to see
here.
Túrin
Huh. Transformers are cool. Heh.
Glen Hallit
i_do_not_read_an...@hotmail.com wrote on 03/28/02 8:23 PM:
> In part 1, we looked at what major continuity-related shit went down in
> the BotCon comics. Now, we try to figure out how it all fits together.
>
>
> <> INTERPRETATION <>
>
....and a whole load of explanations ensue...
Jackpot,
I read this post and your previous post (pertaining to the storylines)
and I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed reading your interpretations. I'll
have to reread and reread again some of your points, but let me say you are
*mostly* correct in what you say in your essays. There are some observances
which I think are a little incorrect (identity of the "artifact" in the
voice actor play, Swoop as "the Veteran", and some others), but overall I
think you may have nailed it, better than I could have!
As for some of your other comments, let me say the following:
1. Characterization and origins of the other Beast Warriors (Fractyl, etc.)
will be delved into when Primeval Dawn, part 2 is unveiled. There are some
explanations in there.
2. The Shokaract era is "way" into the future, way past Beast Machines
(more than several centuries, if I recall correctly).
3. The wackiness of time travel is horrid at times. Without rereading some
of your points at this moment, let me say that the erasing of Shokaract's
timeline was *supposed" to end up in a paradox - one that doesn't have a
final explanation since it IS contradictory.
4. "The Big Picture" commentary. Absolutely well put. In fact, we'll be
building on this general concept of acceptance/continuity/canonicity this
summer at BotCon 2002. However, let me again say your comments are exactly
in line with how we feel fandom should take these stories - if you like them
and want to incorporate them into an expanded universe, perfect. If not,
then don't. Either way, have fun with them!
By the way, we DO try to keep them consistent with each other and with what
Hasbro is doing. Sometimes, though, with different writers (Simon, Bob
Forward, myself, Rob Gerbracht) this self-consistency can get muddied. Add
to the fact that Hasbro's story plans are WAY in advance of even what we at
3H sees, we're lucky there aren't MORE contradictions.
Anyway, thanks for caring to post this. If I can break away from convention
planning to reread your posts and offer my insights into the stories, I'll
do that. If not, I'm sure we can discuss it at this year's show!
Best,
Glen
Cyb
wrote:
>
>Never read any of the Botcon comics, but I enjoyed your posts
>nonetheless. Just wanted to let you know. Carry on. Nothing to see
>here.
Aye, that's a big ditto from myself as well.
- Cyb, who wants to get his hands on that botcon Wreckers comic now
even more than he did before.
http://www.angelfire.com/apes/axalon
David Willis
> which I think are a little incorrect (identity of the "artifact" in the
> voice actor play, Swoop as "the Veteran", and some others), but overall I
> think you may have nailed it, better than I could have!
B-but... Furman said!
In "The Last Days of Optimus Prime." You know. That...fanfic.
Well.
I bet he's SQUAWKTALK!
--David
www.itswalky.com
Glen Hallit
wii...@hotmail.com wrote on 03/28/02 11:36 PM:
This is a perfect example of different writers/intent. When Simon scripted
the Omega Point story, he didn't indicate that the Veteran was Swoop. In
fact, in previous discussions between myself and Simon, the Veteran was
meant to be a nameless character, an old codger who fought in the Great War
(at least that's what I wanted it to be!). When Simon subsequently wrote
"The Last Days of Optimus Prime", he included imagery to indicate the
Veteran to be Swoop, thereby causing this slight mess. Smart or strong, it
HAS to be Swoop, I guess!
Glen
Jackpot
>
> I read this post and your previous post (pertaining to the storylines)
> and I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed reading your interpretations.
Thank you! I really appreciate that.
> There are some observances
> which I think are a little incorrect (identity of the "artifact" in the
> voice actor play, Swoop as "the Veteran", and some others)
Really? Hmm... let's see how I reached those conclusions....
Well, the summary of "Visitations" at the beginning of the "Omega Point"
comic describes the shadowy figure who made off with the artifact as
"riding an anti-grav board," and the accompanying illustration shows
Apelinq reaching for the object. Then, one of Apelinq's Journals
(called, provocatively, "Re-visitations") has 'Linq saying, "I have
reclaimed the transfer interlink and my antivirus program, but not
without consequence. However, my near contact with those Cybertronians
was a risk I had to take. While it seems they were too busy blasting
each other apart to notice my departure, their presence here has left me
with still more unanswered questions."
So if the artifact *wasn't* his transfer interlink, then what did said
interlink have to do with that battle? And why didn't 'Linq mention
this mysterious find in his journal? I will admit that the connection
isn't foolproof: The artifact has been described as "Predacon," which
would be an odd thing for 'Linq to be carrying. However, I imagine it
could've just been a bit of stolen Pred technology that hadn't been put
in a Maxie shell yet. Believing that the "Omega Point" storyline had
been fully told by now, I was ready to assume that explanation.
However, your comment makes me think there's a bit more of the tale
waiting to be explored...
Oh, and the Swoop/Veteran thing. I got that straight from "The Last
Days of Optimus Prime" ( http://www2.prestel.co.uk/primus/lastdays.htm
), an apocryphal comic story written by Furman for the UK's Transforce
2000 convention. Admittedly, that's not quite admissible in this court,
but the idea is echoed in the "Omega Point" claim that "it was rumored
this semi-legendary warrior was the last still active Autobot, and that
he had fought on Earth against the Decepticons, side-by-side with
Optimus Prime himself." Also, there's this telling sentence: "In Earth
parlance, the Veteran realized, startled by the unintentional irony, he
had become a dinosaur."
Granted, pterodactyls aren't technically dinosaurs, but still. He's not
Grimlock, since Grimmy showed up among the J'nwan group. He might be
another Dinobot... or even Sky Lynx, for that matter... but I see no
reason *not* to think it's Swoop.
>, but overall I
> think you may have nailed it, better than I could have!
Thank you again! For such a complex story, I noticed it seemed to cause
very little literary debate (outside of the general "3H blows/rulz"
nonsense). I figured that might have had to do with its impenetrability
as a straightforward narrative, so I decided to untangle the knots as
best I could. I'm glad you think my examination was more or less accurate.
> 1. Characterization and origins of the other Beast Warriors (Fractyl, etc.)
> will be delved into when Primeval Dawn, part 2 is unveiled. There are some
> explanations in there.
Good to know.
> 2. The Shokaract era is "way" into the future, way past Beast Machines
> (more than several centuries, if I recall correctly).
Yeah, that makes sense.
> 3. The wackiness of time travel is horrid at times. Without rereading some
> of your points at this moment, let me say that the erasing of Shokaract's
> timeline was *supposed" to end up in a paradox - one that doesn't have a
> final explanation since it IS contradictory.
So... how does the timestream actually move on after something like
that? Barring my other criticisms about the whole BC temporal
framework, the simple notion of a time-traveler destroying his own
future and instantly facing the repercussions creates a feedback loop.
As near as I can figure, the flow of time would just *stop* when that
happened. The timestream would try to go in two directions at once, but
each one prevents the other from happening, so the only other option is
to come to a standstill. Yet, in the BC tale, one of those two
directions is somehow chosen, and its impossibility is never addressed.
Like I said before, though, when it comes to preserving continuity with
BW, a screwy time-travel theory is a forgivable sin, since BW made all
the same apparent mistakes.
> By the way, we DO try to keep them consistent with each other and with what
> Hasbro is doing. Sometimes, though, with different writers (Simon, Bob
> Forward, myself, Rob Gerbracht) this self-consistency can get muddied. Add
> to the fact that Hasbro's story plans are WAY in advance of even what we at
> 3H sees, we're lucky there aren't MORE contradictions.
Heh. Yeah, it's easy for a fan looking in to critique the whole shebang
as though it were the calculated creation of a single individual. But
there's a far more complicated mess happening underneath the pure
fiction, and I do salute you guys for keeping it all together.
I did consider mentioning in my Big-Ass Treatise that the change in
creative teams between "Omega Point" and "Wreckers" could constitute a
continuitical division like that between the BW and BMach shows, but
there was too much bilateral intertwining (particularly regarding
Apelinq) for me to think it worthwhile throwing that complication into
the cauldron.
> Anyway, thanks for caring to post this.
Hey, thanks for caring to create the whole damn thing in the first
place. It's a severely underrated addition to the canon. And thanks
for responding to my post, too!
> If I can break away from convention
> planning to reread your posts and offer my insights into the stories, I'll
> do that.
That would definitely be appreciated, but I understand if you're too busy.
> If not, I'm sure we can discuss it at this year's show!
Dammit, Hallit. Here I'd finally been getting close to deciding that
the expense and effort involved in getting to Fort Wayne was enough to
dissuade me from going, and now you have to give me a whole new reason
to attend.
Feh.
- Jackpot (How 'bout you come out to Seattle one of these years, eh?)
Jackpot
> Túrin wrote:
>
>>Never read any of the Botcon comics, but I enjoyed your posts
>>nonetheless. Just wanted to let you know. Carry on. Nothing to see
>>here.
>
> Aye, that's a big ditto from myself as well.
>
> - Cyb, who wants to get his hands on that botcon Wreckers comic now
> even more than he did before.
Thanks, guys. I really do appreciate that.
- Jackpot (who'd appreciate some good ol' fashioned DEBATIN' more,
but takes what he can get.)
David Willis
> the Omega Point story, he didn't indicate that the Veteran was Swoop. In
> fact, in previous discussions between myself and Simon, the Veteran was
> meant to be a nameless character, an old codger who fought in the Great
War
> (at least that's what I wanted it to be!). When Simon subsequently wrote
> "The Last Days of Optimus Prime", he included imagery to indicate the
> Veteran to be Swoop, thereby causing this slight mess. Smart or strong, it
> HAS to be Swoop, I guess!
Huh. Thing is, I'd pegged "The Veteran" as being Swoop long before
TLDoOP came about. It was really just circumstancial evidence at
the time, but with his mention of being a dinosaur... in more than one
meaning of the word, myself and a few others fanboyishly decided he
was Swoop. And Furman's Transforce story sorta clinched it.
Ah well. There's been worse "retcons." It's sorta sad, though. Now
T-Wrecks and half of Windrazor can't have a glorious reunion.
--David
www.itswalky.com
Glen Hallit
i_do_not_read_an...@hotmail.com wrote on 03/29/02 12:01 AM:
Jackpot,
The interlink had nothing to do with the battle - Apelinq had to
recalibrate his transfer interlink to get him home - to HIS home. The
artifact was the antivirus to Beast Machine Megatron's virus that hurt all
of Cybertron. When Apelinq arrived on BW-era Earth, he lost the antivirus
coming through and had to find it. Once he found it, somehow he had to get
home. His transfer interlink is the device which enables him to do all sorts
of stuff, like digitizing his hoverboard, creating weaponry, creating new
li---oops, I got ahead of myself ;-)
Anyway, once he recalibrated, he was able to return home to Cybertron
and hook back up with Primal Prime and the rest of the Wreckers. Lots of
trouble ensues...
Glen
Jackpot
>
> The interlink had nothing to do with the battle - Apelinq had to
> recalibrate his transfer interlink to get him home - to HIS home. The
> artifact was the antivirus to Beast Machine Megatron's virus that hurt all
> of Cybertron.
Ahhhh, I see.
So... what's the "dimensional key" (also described as an "artifact")
that Shokaract was so worried about that he sent Antagony to retrieve
it, thus (apparently) setting off the whole paradoxical time-wipe?
- Jackpot
Cyb
<i_do_not_read_an...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> - Jackpot (who'd appreciate some good ol' fashioned DEBATIN' more,
>but takes what he can get.)
heh, well normally I'd be up for that, but I have little to debate
about seeing as how your two posts are all I know of the Botcon
comics, I'm not really in the postion to heh.
With the whole continuity deal though, well I never read the Marvel
comics or any of the TF comics (in fact when I get the new TF comics
coming out next month they will be the first comics I've bought in a
good five or six years), so I base everything on the G1/BW/BM
continuity. Of course there are some things in each one that
contradict stuff in the others, but that's to be expected with three
sets of writers with their own styles and also the fact that G1 didn't
know BW was going to happen and BW not knowing what BM would do and so
on. It seems that the botcon stuff fits nicely in with the
continutiy, though the nutty time travel stuff will probably present a
lot of the problems that came with 'Agenda', though I like to look at
time in this light, and I'll use the events occuring at the end of
'Agenda' and the beginning of 'Optimal Situation' since I'll prolly
mess up the Botcon stuff, hehe.
Okay, so in the proper timeline, the Beast Wars occur, then 4 million
years later Prime and the Autobots awaken and do their G1 thing and
then 300 years after G1 (or was it 3000? I never can remember) the
downsize thing happens and the Maxis and Preds surface. Great.
However, BW Megs blasts Prime, effectivly killing him (though why he
shot him in the head and not directly in the spark remains a mystery
to me, I guess his arrogance got the best of him again). Okay, so now
the timeline in the paragraph above ceases to exist. Now Megatron has
destroyed Prime, so effectivly without an efficient leader (though I
think Prowl could have done fine, but I digress), the Autobots end up
losing the great war. Maybe quickly, maybe eventually, but the point
is they lose. Okay, so now the Decepticons destroy the Autobots,
because we all know they wouldn't try any of that 'make peace' crap
that the Autobots would, so now all that's left is Decepticons. For
the sake of argument just say that 'Cons eventually DO downsize
themselvs to become Predacons, which would explain why Megs didn't
become a Decepticon when he blew up Prime.
Okay, but is the first timeline gone from existance? Nope. It's
still around, but it's fading. The present requires some events to
occur for that original future to occur. It's like the whole
'Terminator 2' syndrome. John Conners sent the T800 back in time to
protect himself as a child because someone sent the T1000 back in time
to kill him. See, in HIS reality, the T1000 and T800 have just been
sent back and have not been successful in their missions yet. Even
though the past already happened, chaging it takes time. It kinda
makes sense, but you need to think about it.
Plus then you have stuff like 'Back to the Future' where he went back
in time, altered stuff a lot to the point of almost erasing his own
existance, then fixed it so he would exist, but ended up changing the
future in the process. When he got back everyone acted as if the
previous reality he had known and grown up with was the norm, but to
him it was stuff he'd never seen before. If he had altered time, why
didn't he instantaneously remember everything that was the new
reality? Since the old reality ceased to exist, there should be no
memories of it, but there were, though only he remembered it. Why?
Because he was the one that altered the timeline. This explains why
BW Megatron didn't get altered when he busted up Prime, and why
Apelinq was able to recall all the stuff that happened but then got
erased and also possibly why Shokaract was able to suddenly realize
something he wasn't able to realize.
Even though the past has already happened, at any given moment it is
occuring. So time is an infinate number of timelines, all identical
and interconnected, and every second of every hour of every day of
every month of every year EVER is occuring at the exact same time. If
one of those infinate number of timelines is altered, it warps that
timeline immediatly, and the rest, which are all exact copies of it,
are altered accordingly, but only the ones that are the FUTURE of the
effected timeline are altered.
So say I go into the past and kill my father when he was 15. I have
warped all timelines that have a current present of that second I
killed him on. However, timelines with a current present BEFORE I
killed dear old dad have not been effected because this time-warping
event hasn't occured yet, so someone from those timelines in the
future (my grandson or whoever) can send someone to stop me from
killing my dad. That event then never occurs, and thus the altered
timelines are fine.
It's confusing as hell, but no one ever said messing with time travel
would be easy. I kinda hope we never invent time travel, actually,
because I'm positive that would be the way the universe ends, hehe.
Yeah, so how's THAT for debate? I need to go to sleep now, yeesh.
Commander Crayfish
>Huh. Thing is, I'd pegged "The Veteran" as being Swoop long before
>TLDoOP came about. It was really just circumstancial evidence at
>the time, but with his mention of being a dinosaur... in more than one
>meaning of the word, myself and a few others fanboyishly decided he
>was Swoop. And Furman's Transforce story sorta clinched it.
I'm with Walky on this. I read Omega Point the Saturday of Botcon '99, and my
immediate thought on the identity of the Veteran was Swoop. I had a half-formed
notion that he might be Kup, but that was dismissed as soon as the "dinosaur"
line came up. I never took it to mean anything other than his being Swoop.
I didn't even know "Last Days of Prime" had officially confirmed Swoop as the
Vet until a friend showed me a copy last year. I just took it as a given.
"No one PLANS to rob the Bellagio. It just happens."
- Jarod, on the feasibility of Ocean's Eleven
El Funaroverse! www.funaroverse.com
*****************CLFu...@aol.com*****************
GARDNER1138
It's a severely underrated addition to the canon. >>
I'd have to agree/echo both of these statements. I'm grateful to 3H, and trust
them with the history.
Oh, and Jackpot? Good post. I don't have much to add (sorry?). You did far
better than I could. TF continuity is a mess, really, and it doesn't appear
that the official guys really want to touch it.
Jackpot
> I like to look at time in this light,
Before I start my response, I'd like to note that I used to really
really love time-travel fiction. I've even got this cool story I wrote
in the fourth grade where, via time-travel, I (it was just written
first-person, shut up) end up back at the beginning of the story on the
last page. The first paragraph is also the final one.
Unfortunately, in the last decade and a half or so, I've thought too
much about the subject. Now I see the flaws in every pop-culture
ejaculation of time-travel nonsense. I even try to accept such stories
on the terms they set up for themselves, no matter how ridiculous they
may seem, but even then they usually contradict their own standards.
So the moral is: Never think.
> and I'll use the events occuring at the end of
> 'Agenda' and the beginning of 'Optimal Situation' since I'll prolly
> mess up the Botcon stuff, hehe.
>
> Okay, so in the proper timeline, the Beast Wars occur, then 4 million
> years later Prime and the Autobots awaken and do their G1 thing and
> then 300 years after G1 (or was it 3000? I never can remember)
300 years after the end of the Great War, which I really doubt was
"Rebirth." So, strictly speaking, we don't know HOW much time elapsed
between G1 and BW. Though the 300 years thing has become standard in
most people's minds, to the point where they think of BW's future
setting as being in the 2300's.
> Okay, but is the first timeline gone from existance? Nope. It's
> still around, but it's fading.
I'm not sure I buy the idea of a "fading" timeline. To me, it seems
like a pretty all-or-nothing deal. An event happens or it doesn't, and
that causes something else to occur, and so on, like dominoes. I can't
imagine what the notion of "fading" actually MEANS.
> The present requires some events to
> occur for that original future to occur.
I find it hard to get around the snowball effect, though. Like the
classic butterfly-flapping-its-wings-in-Japan weather theory, I don't
see how the smallest effect WOULDN'T eventually change the whole. And
that means that, no matter how hard a time-traveler tries, he'll never
be able to completely undo his own actions.
One of my beefs with most time-travel stories is that the significant
events which everyone is trying to either stop or cause are only
significant from a simplistic, human perspective. For instance, your
father's untimely death in the past would be a big deal to you, so you'd
do everything you could to prevent it. But all the little changes you
make in the process - breathing the air of the past, driving a car
around, fighting with a villain, giving your dad some advice that'll get
you out of trouble when you're six - never have any consequences,
despite the fact that they could be extremely important. Simply by
occupying a certain space, you might redirect an airborne virus that
someone happens to catch when they weren't "supposed" to catch it, and
they spread it to someone else, who gives it to someone else, who passes
it to Kevin Bacon, who infects your mom, who gets sick the night that
you were supposed to be conceived, and suddenly you're dead anyway. Or
maybe you DO get conceived, but your parents' genes happen to combine
slightly differently because it happens at the "wrong" time. And you
grow up to be a different person who never builds a time machine, and
BAM you've got a paradox on your hands. Or maybe you're conceived and
raised just like the original timeline, but something that happened to
Man On Street #2 in the car-chase scene set off a chain of events that
prevented you from meeting the scientist who helped you create
time-travel tech, and once again-- paradox.
The world's just too big and interconnected for things not to snowball,
to my estimation.
> It's like the whole
> 'Terminator 2' syndrome. John Conners sent the T800 back in time to
> protect himself as a child because someone sent the T1000 back in time
> to kill him. See, in HIS reality, the T1000 and T800 have just been
> sent back and have not been successful in their missions yet. Even
> though the past already happened, chaging it takes time. It kinda
> makes sense, but you need to think about it.
Eh. I've thought about it, and that's why it doesn't make sense. :)
Look at it this way: Let's say I use my vast temporal powers to send a
henchman back to 1902 to do... something. I dunno. Invest some money
for me. Now, by your theory, there's this 100-year gap between his and
my progressions through time, so that whatever he does takes 100 years
to reach me. If he sets up a bank account for me in 1903, I'll suddenly
find a bank account in 2003. Then if he burns the bank and its records
down in 1904, the account will vanish in 2004. And if he kills my
grandpa in 1905, then in 2005 I'll disappear too.
Friggin' henchmen.
But, his traitorous disloyalty aside, the idea being postulated is that,
with every action the henchman takes, the 100 years between him and me
are played out in a single instant. There are no myriad possibilities
involved; there is one domino-chain of events reaching out and
manifesting in my own life. With this alone, I have no problem. The
problem I have is that, in the bank-burning-grandpa-killing example, the
henchman is inexplicably absent from the future that he creates and will
take part in. If he's going to knock off Gramps in 1905, then that
event will have manifested itself in the domino-chain that started with
his arrival in 1902. Put another way: If I see a bank account suddenly
appear in 2003, then in that new history, my henchman set up the account
and then blinked out of existence. That makes no sense to me.
> Plus then you have stuff like 'Back to the Future'
Let's..... please not use lighthearted comedy flicks to talk about
time-travel. Or else I'll sic some Time Bandits on you.
> Since the old reality ceased to exist, there should be no
> memories of it, but there were, though only he remembered it. Why?
> Because he was the one that altered the timeline.
>
> This explains why
> BW Megatron didn't get altered when he busted up Prime,
I don't understand why that would be a factor at all. At best, I could
allow for time-travel in general to be an immunizing factor; that is to
say, as soon as you arrive in the past, whatever new future you create
will never chase you back. But then, if that principle were protecting
Megs, then it also should've been protecting the Maxies. And from the
looks of it, they weren't doing too swell. Hell, there shouldn't have
even been a timestorm at all the past were immune to the new future.
> So say I go into the past and kill my father when he was 15. I have
> warped all timelines that have a current present of that second I
> killed him on. However, timelines with a current present BEFORE I
> killed dear old dad have not been effected because this time-warping
> event hasn't occured yet, so someone from those timelines in the
> future (my grandson or whoever) can send someone to stop me from
> killing my dad. That event then never occurs, and thus the altered
> timelines are fine.
How can your grandson's "present" exist BEFORE the time that you killed
your dad?
I'm having a hard time understanding your use of the word "timeline."
> It's confusing as hell, but no one ever said messing with time travel
> would be easy.
Actually, as I see it, there are three viable theories of time-travel,
and they're all rather simple.
The first is that there is only one timeline, and it's static. Any
time-travel that's yet to happen has already happened. So if I go back
in time to stop Lincoln's assassination, I know right now that my
mission will fail. Not because there are ethereal forces in the
universe that will undo everything I try, but because I'm already there
in history. Whatever I'm going to do was already done. There is no
"original," unsullied history that gets rewritten when a time-traveler
appears. The universe does its thing in one take, and the timeline in
which a time-traveler appears is the only timeline that's ever been or
ever will be.
This is the theory from "12 Monkeys," the sole movie I can think of
right now that does time-travel well.
The second viable time-travel theory involves parallel universes. Begin
with the assumption that, for every possible outcome of any given
action, there is a universe in which it happens. Thus, timelines are
continually branching off from each other - graphically, it would be an
exponentially-broadening fan of universes. Now, if you go back in time
along this fan, your arrival in the past manifests in the form of a
brand-new burst of parallel universes, all containing the realized
possibility of your appearance. Your home timeline, though, remains
unaffected. And you will never be able to return to that universe,
either, unless you can somehow hop laterally from one timeline to the
next, as opposed to riding them up and down the stream.
Neither of these two theories are particularly glamorous, since they
both preclude the notion of risk to the time-traveler or his future.
But then, that's what makes them viable. :)
The third allows for a little more risk: There is only one timeline,
just like the static model, but it can be changed by a time-traveler;
however, the time-traveler is immune to those changes, so even if he
kills his dad, his own existence in the past won't be destroyed.
There's still no great risk to the time-traveler, but at least he's in
jeopardy of losing his familiar future.
The problem is, I don't know *how* he would be immune in the past. Even
if cause-and-effect happens in reverse, leaping over a span of years...
it's still cause-and-effect. But still, I think there's just enough
philosophical uncertainty involved to let it slide.
However, NONE of these three theories can account for the timestorms,
disappearing mountains, cancelled histories, and other bizarrities of
the BW/BC tales.
> I kinda hope we never invent time travel, actually,
> because I'm positive that would be the way the universe ends, hehe.
You 'n' me both, kid.
> Yeah, so how's THAT for debate?
Pretty good! Thanks for obliging me! It's fun.
- Jackpot (Now if you'll excuse me, I've got a henchman to flog.
He may not understand it, but it's for my own good.)
Túrin
> The third allows for a little more risk: There is only one timeline,
> just like the static model, but it can be changed by a time-traveler;
> however, the time-traveler is immune to those changes, so even if he
> kills his dad, his own existence in the past won't be destroyed.
> There's still no great risk to the time-traveler, but at least he's in
> jeopardy of losing his familiar future.
>
> The problem is, I don't know *how* he would be immune in the past. Even
> if cause-and-effect happens in reverse, leaping over a span of years...
> it's still cause-and-effect. But still, I think there's just enough
> philosophical uncertainty involved to let it slide.
I think you would enjoy Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher
Columbus by Orson Scott Card.
Túrin
http://knoledge.org/mormegil/ TF Song Parodies, Twisted Screenshots,
and Fanfic
"In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is hunted down and
killed."
Derik Smith
>and the effects can catch up to you while you're still in the past, then
>you'll be forever caught in an oscillating causality loop. To whit:
>When the Dark Essence was caused to vanish from prehistoric Earth,
>Shokaract ceased to exist because his own "birth" had been nullified,
>and everything he did in the Beast Wars was also erased.
Ah, but your very analysis is predicated an a presumption of how time
works. That is that there is no present, and that time, while mutable, doe
snot have changes ripple fore and back from their point of origin, like wave on
a jump rope- but undergoes a state change, at one moment being one way, and
then instantly another, changing past, present, and future simultaneously.
The very idea of a timestorm negates that premise. that is not an instant
state change.
Marvel and DC have both used time travel scenarios wherein a change in
time has a 'temporal wavefront,' moving forward or backward in time at a
measurable rate (Say, a twenty years a minute.) So, for instance, if you were
In a lab, and you sent a nuke back in time to the hospital where you were born
on the day you were born 20 years ago- youy'd have about 60 seconds to go
through that portal and prevent the nuke's actual detonation before you were
yourself erased. (It should be noted that the ONLY Instance I've ever seen
this setup used in the MU is a New Warriors story arc. It violates the 'way'
time travel works in the MU, which is a forming multiverse with set rules. But
then- so did Age of Apocalypse. Marvel's relaxed the rules since Gruenwald
died... the early 90-'s X-men cartoon ALSO used this wavefront/timestorm
setup. But then, it also integrated parts of the MarvelUK time travel
paradigm, which was wildly different to boot...)
If you assume there's a lag built in, it can cover the discrepancy (albeit
badly.) Of course, I also disagree with your read on the situation...
>To add to the strangeness, Shokaract
>was afraid for the Essence's well-being before he ever started monkeying
>with the past. This is very confusing, since the Beast Wars were
>already a part of history at that point.
Perhaps Apelinq was already monkeying. (Tee-hee) Apelinq had been there
since early season 2... somehow emerging 2 years earlier than Primal Prime's
crew departed ... and he was stuck there for 2 years, hiding, from BEFORE the
time Antagony was sent back.
> If it was Apelinq's destiny to
>send the Dark Essence away from prehistoric Earth, then the moment he
>appeared there, all of the actions he was going to take would instantly
>manifest themselves forward through history, and Shokaract's whole life
>would blink out of existence before he even knew there was a lick of
>danger.
Who says that was his destiny? Apelinq arrived in the Beast Wars from...
mid season one BM. (I'm assuming his journals would have mentioned the plasma
energy chamber debacle) That's important, keep it mind.
>And to make things even a little more wacky, Shokaract was focused on
>the "dimensional key," which seems to mean Apelinq's personal Transwarp
>device - despite the fact that it had *nothing* to do with the Dark
>Essence's eventual peril! However, is it possible that this is a clue?
> Could it be that BW-as-we-know-it wasn't the threat at all? What if
>Apelinq's appearance in the past was the temporal anomaly that needed to
>be stopped? Could we suppose that, had 'Linq gone unmolested by
>Shokaract's interference, he would've ended up disrupting the Dark
>Essence with his transwarp powers somehow?
The device in question is the Transfer Interlink (was it ever called a
dimensional key? I couldn't find a ref to it...) It's the alien technology
Apelinq has which lets him 'download' virtual objects into the real world.
Let's look at an Omega Point quote briefly.
>THE LONG NIGHT BLOOMS. WHAT CANNOT BE IS, WHAT IS HISTORY IS
>FUTURE. THE BEGINNING, THE END, ALL IS CHAOS NOW.
I guess I should start this by saying- frankly, I disagree with your read
on the Shokaract situation.
You realize that EVERY example of time travel we have in the cartoon
involves a predestination paradox? The past is not changed, it always happened
that way. The Aerialbots help create Optimus Prime, Roduimus Prime teaches A3
the word 'Autobot.' The Beast Wars are mentioned in the Covenant of Primus.
(The only one without a direct predestination paradox is A Decepticon Raider in
King Aurthur's Court. And even that did not change the past- for all we know
the Autobots and Decepticons had always visited there, we just lack evidence
one way or another.)
The comics have a lot of time travel, and time changes. The comics, if
you read them carefully, also say that the Megatron who was re-created as
Galvatron in TF:TM was actually Straxus. But even there you have the wavefront
effect, changes rippling through time, has Galvatron desperately recalling this
same battle through Megatron's eyes, changing his tactics based on how it turns
out, waiting for his memories to change, and then changing tactics again...
State change temporal mechanics make sense from a physics standpoint- but
not a dramatic one. Very little in fiction uses them.
That having been said... this is my take on the situation.
Imagine leaves, swirling in the wind. Such is time as it unfolds. Now
imagine those leaves as light foam blocks, bounced and whipped against one
another, coming to rest in different formations time and again...
Imagine, by sheerest chance, a number of these blocks form into an arc, a
more stable, self-supporting structure which resists the wind better. That arc
has a begining, and an end- an origin and a terminus- and they support each
other.
This is Shokaract. As the possible shapes of the future waver and his
comes into being- he rushes to secure his own fragile origin.
In the comics, US and UK, TFTM's 2005 WAS the future... up until US #61.
Suddenly, that whole timeline, which had spawned repeated time travel back and
forth, and Megatron making peace with the idea he will one day become
Galvatron... was negated, and a new shape took hold.
Prior to that change, we saw Unicron from 2005 reaching back and
influencing people subconsciously. He sent 3 Autobots back to chase down
Galvatron, Cyclonus and Skywarp and keep them from altering the past. He
influenced the decision to build Autobot City so there would be a cataclysmic
battle where Prime fell and placed the succession of Prime's in doubt. Unicron
acting to secure his own timeline. (Well, more his own future there, but the
point stands.)
My point was... THE future changed, and a new shape- which began with
Optimus Prime destroying Unicron in 1991, took hold. Could that new shape not
just as easily included an evil int he far future who would then work to make
sure his future remains the viable one?
Remember, Shokaract was mentioned in Primus's texts given to the Covenant.
But- that doesn't mean he was necessarily destined to be. Let's look at
another quote.
>The framework of Primus' Grand Plan was an intricate and complex
>blueprint of possibilities and outcome, an evolving structure that
>needed the occasional delicate tweak to keep it viable.
I think Shokaract's 32nd century was a predestined time loop. A future
meant to be wiped out- but which nevertheless needed to exist within the plan
because the agents of that future fullfilled certian roles within the main
timeline. (Had Glen not chosen to mind-wipe Primal, I would have said one of
the consequences of those agents was to have the battle with Shokaract send
Primal on a more spiritual quest, beginning with his reading the Covenant of
Primus in Nemesis part 1, and continuing on to it's more extremist bent in BM.
"Later for you, Halit!")
But I digress. Remember how I told you to remember Apelinq departed from
season 1 BM? Do so now. Then it might do you go to re-read the first scene of
Omega Point part 2- Shokaracts' origin.
Shokaract finds the Dark Essence SEVERAL YEARS into Megatron's rule of BM,
as Megatron was spreading his influence wider throughout the galaxy. This
NEVER HAPPENED in our timeline. Megatron was stopped. Shokaract comes from a
timeline when the Maximals LOST Beast Machines. He makes explicit reference to
it in the Botcon 2000 comic. He holds Megatron by the throat- but cannot kill
him, because his own existance depends on Megatron surviving the Beast Wars and
going on to conquor Cybertron.
The Hunter WORKED for Megatron early in this winning branch, tracking down
rogue resisters. It was on one of these missions, as the resistance was
growing more organized, that he was driven down to Earth by a counterattack and
driven into hiding- where he found the Dark Essence.
Of course at the same time, if Shokaract's timeline had suceeded, it
would have negated some events BEFORE BM. Such as BW2 and Neo. (Since it's my
belief that the Dark Essence, fleeing again through time, ended up on Gaea.)
Apelinq needed his Transfer Interlink to create the antidote to Megatron's
transformation lock virus. Would not that existance of THAT antidote pose a
greater threat to Shoakract's timeline- cutting the Machine Era short- than
anyting?
(Of course, Antagony said she'd combed time searching for Megatron in the
Beast Wars- but that was a lead in to a gag. She later went on to look for the
artifact...)
Part of the problem here is that the McGuffin of the Botcon 98 script- the
artifact- was 'played' differently every friggin' year for 4 years straight.
First a futuristic predacon artifact, then a key to Shokaract's origin, then
again as an artifact NOT previously connected to Apelinq- then finally as
(presumably alien) technology use for Apelinq's virtual download trick- and the
key to the antidote to Megatron's virus. A very literal McGuffin, it is whater
it needs to be to drive the plot at that time. ;)
The other part of the problem was- we never got to see Antagony or
Cataclym's mission. We never saw/heard Shokaract's orders to them. All we
really have is Antagony's behavior in the Botcon 98 script, which was to go
after the artifact which was a key to breaking BM Megs hold on Cybertron.
Of course, I want a Megabolt Megatron toy recolored as The Hunter for this
Botcon, so what do I know?
I guess... I just don't see a conflict in the mechanics of Shokaract's
timeline. That having been said- let me say how much I liked your post. It
made me go back and fine-tooth Omega Point, which always leads to some fun
discoveries, such as this nugget from Leonicus...
"Second. I want a full update on the current political situation on Cybertron.
I don't believe for a moment that the current Maximal/Predacon alliance is as
stable as the newsnet reports would have us believe. Dig deeper, the seeds of
what is to come will already have been sown. Scorpius, court intrigue is your
forte."
'The seeds of what is to come will already have been sown.' The seeds of
the future lay buried in the past. I do so love Furman...
-Derik
"Despite concerns from the Tibetan government, President Bush has refused
to rule out an attack on the ice dome, citing concerns over Cobra-La's
bioweapons program, and ties to known terrorist groups."-CNNC
I probably don't care what you think
Steve-o Stonebraker
> home. His transfer interlink is the device which enables him to do all sorts
> of stuff, like digitizing his hoverboard, creating weaponry, creating new
> li---oops, I got ahead of myself ;-)
Wha-- ?!?!?! Damn you, Hallit! That's just sadistic! :P
--Steve-o
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Stonebraker | Transformers FAQ Keeper | Astrophysicist
sst...@yahoo.com | www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb | AOL IM: srstoneb
David Willis
> > home. His transfer interlink is the device which enables him to do all
sorts
> > of stuff, like digitizing his hoverboard, creating weaponry, creating
new
> > li---oops, I got ahead of myself ;-)
>
> Wha-- ?!?!?! Damn you, Hallit! That's just sadistic! :P
I'll say! Who does he think he is -- John D. Rockefeller? All those damn
new libraries...
--David
www.itswalky.com
Derik Smith
>you are *mostly* correct in what you say in your essays. There are some
>observances which I think are a little incorrect (identity of the "artifact"
in the
>voice actor play, Swoop as "the Veteran", and some others), but overall I
>think you may have nailed it, better than I could have!
Oh fergods-
From Omega Point Chapter 2.
>Regardless of his current appearance, he was a relic, an anachronism.
>In Earth parlance, the Veteran realized, startled by the unintentional irony,
>he had become a dinosaur.
Further on, describing his transformation...
>The leg in question had folded up, retracting into an already reconfigured
>torso, replaced by three hooked talons, fashioned from cobalt and chromium.
>And finally, like shimmering sails, wings of crimson crystal unfurled, the
>intricate network of circuitry in their span catching the light from distant
>stars, prisming it into a whirlpool of flecked color.
Blue, silver, and gold wings. And hes' a petradon, with a beak. And a
dinosaur.
The Veteran WAS Swoop. The intimations were fairly explicit. Plus, you
know, LDoOP.
Now, if you want to change that, you certianly have wiggle room, because
it was never explicltly stated 'back when he was Swoop.' the colors, if
nothing else, are pure parity, and there's no real reason for him to hold the
same colors after several changes in form. (IIRC, the MiB Swoop was going to
be orange and white.) It's certianly within your rights to change the
Veteran's identity, the hickup with LDoOP is minor, just SAY you're changing
it. ;)
Speaking of MiB, you wouldn't happen to know anything about techspecs for
their Swoop/Albitron 2 pack, would you? :)~
>As for some of your other comments, let me say the following:
>
>1. Characterization and origins of the other Beast Warriors (Fractyl, etc.)
>will be delved into when Primeval Dawn, part 2 is unveiled. There are some
>explanations in there.
...which we can expect in the next few days, right?
>2. The Shokaract era is "way" into the future, way past Beast Machines
>(more than several centuries, if I recall correctly).
32nd century, yes. (I had to check myself to respond to Jackpot's post.)
>4. "The Big Picture" commentary. Absolutely well put. In fact, we'll be
>building on this general concept of acceptance/continuity/canonicity this
>summer at BotCon 2002. However, let me again say your comments are exactly
>in line with how we feel fandom should take these stories - if you like them
>and want to incorporate them into an expanded universe, perfect. If not,
>then don't. Either way, have fun with them!
Hrm. Provisionally interested. As long as this doesn't end with a big
list of what stories are non-cannon like DCU did before Crisis- I'm interested.
RiD would have been much less fun had someone simpley declared it was
non-cannon.
>By the way, we DO try to keep them consistent with each other and with what
>Hasbro is doing. Sometimes, though, with different writers (Simon, Bob
>Forward, myself, Rob Gerbracht) this self-consistency can get muddied. Add
>to the fact that Hasbro's story plans are WAY in advance of even what we at
>3H sees, we're lucky there aren't MORE contradictions.
Such as Omega Point's take on Beast Machines, which, while containing no
outright contradictions, appears to fit poorly.
You know, looking up Herald (Omega Point part 4) at botcon.com to research
for my response to Jackpot's post- I discovered it's the CLIFFS NOTES version.
You get about 1 paragraph for every 4 of the original. (Which, having
purchased the BC 2000 comic, [which included herald before the main story] I
had handy.) Very crafty, add incentive to buy the comic, buy the comic...
Speaking of which (For those here reading the thread and now interested in
purchasing the Botcon 2000 comic) last year it was offered free with a mail
order of Wreckers #1. You guys plan to do the same this year with Wreckers #2?
And speaking of which... in previous years, the Botcon stories have gone
up online on a one year delay, PROVIDED they're sold out. Wreckers #1 sold
out, so can we expect it up in the next post-Botcon update? (so, Octoberish?
*g* )
Jackpot
>
> I think you would enjoy Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher
> Columbus by Orson Scott Card.
Actually, I did. :)
It's one of the most well-thought-out time-travel stories I've ever
read. I really liked how one of the main characters contemplated the
idea that changing history would mean effectively murdering the billions
of people whose births would be undone.
- Jackpot
GARDNER1138
<< Blue, silver, and gold wings. >>
Isn't crimson red? Wouldn't this be evidence *against* it being Swoop (aside,
of course, from...
<< there's no real reason for him to hold the same colors after several changes
in form. >>
<< Speaking of MiB, you wouldn't happen to know anything about techspecs for
their Swoop/Albitron 2 pack, would you? :)~ >>
Men in Black? D'they ever get that far?
Quag Prime
> Jackpot,
>
> The interlink had nothing to do with the battle - Apelinq had to
> recalibrate his transfer interlink to get him home - to HIS home. The
> artifact was the antivirus to Beast Machine Megatron's virus that hurt all
> of Cybertron. When Apelinq arrived on BW-era Earth, he lost the antivirus
> coming through and had to find it. Once he found it, somehow he had to get
> home. His transfer interlink is the device which enables him to do all sorts
> of stuff, like digitizing his hoverboard, creating weaponry, creating new
> li---oops, I got ahead of myself ;-)
I think Apelinq's transfer interlink can create new limbs.
Or librarys.
Possibly lime flavored candies.
-Quag
Quag Prime
> Glen wrote:
>
> >you are *mostly* correct in what you say in your essays. There are some
> >observances which I think are a little incorrect (identity of the "artifact"
> in the
> >voice actor play, Swoop as "the Veteran", and some others), but overall I
> >think you may have nailed it, better than I could have!
>
> Oh fergods-
> From Omega Point Chapter 2.
>
> >Regardless of his current appearance, he was a relic, an anachronism.
> >In Earth parlance, the Veteran realized, startled by the unintentional irony,
> >he had become a dinosaur.
>
> Further on, describing his transformation...
>
I don't have a copy of Omega Point in front of me, but didn't the
Veteran also have an Energeon Sword, same as both Grimlock and Swoop?
That was another clue that helped convince me that the Vet wasn't just
a new character, and to narrow down exactly who he was.
-Quag
Derik Smith
>Veteran also have an Energeon Sword, same as both Grimlock and Swoop?
>That was another clue that helped convince me that the Vet wasn't just
>a new character, and to narrow down exactly who he was.
He has an Energon Sword, just like Nightglider. (And Darkscream I
guess...) Grimlock- OTOH, had an 'Energo Sword.' Swoop had a Thernal Sword.
:)
LV!
<chop>
> But I digress. Remember how I told you to remember Apelinq
departed from
> season 1 BM? Do so now. Then it might do you go to re-read the first scene of
> Omega Point part 2- Shokaracts' origin.
> Shokaract finds the Dark Essence SEVERAL YEARS into Megatron's rule of BM,
> as Megatron was spreading his influence wider throughout the galaxy. This
> NEVER HAPPENED in our timeline. Megatron was stopped. Shokaract comes from a
> timeline when the Maximals LOST Beast Machines. He makes explicit reference to
> it in the Botcon 2000 comic. He holds Megatron by the throat- but cannot kill
> him, because his own existance depends on Megatron surviving the Beast Wars and
> going on to conquor Cybertron.
I mush dishagree.
"You mush?"
Yesh.
I don't believe Shokaract is from the future of Beast Machines at all.
Realistically, I don't believe he can have been written to be, since I
doubt (with no real knowledge, mind you) that Furman knew what Beast
Machines would be like when he wrote Omega Point. What I believe is
that Shokaract is from an alternate post-BW world, where Meagtron was
the VICTOR in the Beast Wars, and returned to Cybertron to conquer it
by more traditional methods. This is why he has sentient, non-Vehicon
underlings (the Hunter, for one) and there are scattered pockets of
resistance, rather than Primal's band and a gazillion sparks in the
basement. FOr obvious reasons, even in this alternative explanation,
Shokaract cannot kill Megatron in Earth's past, because the Beast Wars
have yet to end. The events surrounding Omega Point work to change
"history", from Shokaract's perspective, into one in which the
MAXIMALS are the victors of the Beast Wars, and Megatron's conquest of
Cybertron takes a more radical form.
I grant that this is a far less neat, fulfilling answer than the
Shokaract-is-from-Beast-Machines theory. However, I also feel that it
requires less stretching of the BM setting to include what we know of
Shokaract's Cybertron, as well as making more "intuitive" sense - this
schematic wipes Shokaract's universe out from his death, causing none
of it to have existed from at least the point of Megatron's return to
Cybertron (and the end of BW) forward. To me, at least, this is in
some way more...appropriate than the changes not really altering
anything until the actual events of Beast Machines at some
undetermined point in the series.
At any rate, I think this sounded better in my head, but it's what I'm
sticking with until Glen and company show me up.
-LV!
I miss the BCB fora.
Sort of.
Quag Prime
> >I don't have a copy of Omega Point in front of me, but didn't the
> >Veteran also have an Energeon Sword, same as both Grimlock and Swoop?
> >That was another clue that helped convince me that the Vet wasn't just
> >a new character, and to narrow down exactly who he was.
>
> He has an Energon Sword, just like Nightglider. (And Darkscream I
> guess...) Grimlock- OTOH, had an 'Energo Sword.' Swoop had a Thernal Sword.
>
> :)
And I thought I'd double checked on this... about two years ago though. Thanks.
-Quag
Derik Smith
>I don't believe Shokaract is from the future of Beast Machines at all.
>Realistically, I don't believe he can have been written to be, since I
>doubt (with no real knowledge, mind you) that Furman knew what Beast
>Machines would be like when he wrote Omega Point.
But Omega Point also had a 'seeds of the future' reference written into it
which I cannot believe was unintentional.
Seems to me liek Furman had some inside line, and shaped the (grand total)
of 3-4 paragraphs pretainign to BM to fit that.
Besides- if Shokaract came from a timeline when BW ended differently- then
why would he have to spare Megatron's life? Her neded Megatron's place in the
timeline to go on uninterrupted.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> In part 1, we looked at what major continuity-related shit went down in
> the BotCon comics. Now, we try to figure out how it all fits together.
These were really great posts, Jackpot, but like some others have said, I
don't have a lot to say in response other than "nice job!". I do have one
comment, though...
> However, some factors are left in the open, as though we're meant to
> imagine they were there behind the scenes the whole time. For example,
> Fractyl, Packrat, Onyx Primal, Vicegrip, and Apelinq are all supposedly
> there during the Beast Wars, permanently offscreen for some reason.
> Apelinq is the only one with a solid alibi: He's a visitor from the
> future who goes out of his way to stay uninvolved. But no one else even
> has an *origin* presented in the stories, much less a reason for being
> invisible to cartoon viewers. I consider this to be a fairly large area
> of conflict - if not quite flat-out contradiction - with BW,
I really don't see this as a problem. All it means is that the BotCon
stories are not set in the precise BW-toon continuity. They take place in
a continuity where all the events of BW take place more or less the same
way, except there are four more robots there. (Apelinq I'm not inclined
to count; he didn't actually take part, right? He was just skulking
about.) Lots of BW fanfics, for exmple, throw in a couple extra
characters but take all the BW-toon events as canon.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> 300 years after the end of the Great War, which I really doubt was
> "Rebirth." So, strictly speaking, we don't know HOW much time elapsed
> between G1 and BW. Though the 300 years thing has become standard in
> most people's minds, to the point where they think of BW's future
> setting as being in the 2300's.
You know, I've had seconds thoughts about that just recently. I've been
copying all my BW tapes for a friend, and I noticed that first of all, in
"Dark Designs" BA says "the great wars three centuries ago" but really
doesn't specify what wars she's talking about. We already know there have
been many "Great Wars" with capital letters in Cybertron's history. No
reason to think she's talking about the war that ended in The Rebirth.
Yes, she specifies that Shrapnel was in them. So what? Shrapnel clearly
didn't die in the movie -- at least not on camera -- so he may have been
around for a long time. Or there may have been another Decepticon
Shrapnel later.
Secondly, in "Possession" BA says "for *centuries* the warred with the
Autobots", emphasis mine. Well, that statement is obviously either
factually incorrect -- which casts into doubt BA's own 300 years comment
-- or indicates a definition of century besides 100 Earth years, or
indicates that Cybertron history is vastly different in the BW-verse than
the G1-toon-verse. Personally, I'm inclined to just think that BA's
information is whacked, althought a more figurative interpreation of
"centuries" might also do it. Either way, I think a lot more time than
300 Earth years has passed.
Cyb
<sst...@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>You know, I've had seconds thoughts about that just recently. I've been
>copying all my BW tapes for a friend, and I noticed that first of all, in
>"Dark Designs" BA says "the great wars three centuries ago" but really
>doesn't specify what wars she's talking about. We already know there have
>been many "Great Wars" with capital letters in Cybertron's history. No
>reason to think she's talking about the war that ended in The Rebirth.
>Yes, she specifies that Shrapnel was in them. So what? Shrapnel clearly
>didn't die in the movie -- at least not on camera -- so he may have been
>around for a long time. Or there may have been another Decepticon
>Shrapnel later.
Yeah, but 'another Decepticon named Shrapnel' completly takes away the
G1 ref. That's like saying Optimus Prime led the Autobots millions of
years ago, but not the Prime you all saw on TV and grew up with. I
dunno, it's possible of course, but the 'cool factor' is all gone now.
>Secondly, in "Possession" BA says "for *centuries* the warred with the
>Autobots", emphasis mine. Well, that statement is obviously either
>factually incorrect -- which casts into doubt BA's own 300 years comment
>-- or indicates a definition of century besides 100 Earth years, or
>indicates that Cybertron history is vastly different in the BW-verse than
>the G1-toon-verse. Personally, I'm inclined to just think that BA's
>information is whacked, althought a more figurative interpreation of
>"centuries" might also do it. Either way, I think a lot more time than
>300 Earth years has passed.
Well, to be fair, a lot of the writers were not overly well versed in
G1, at least, nowhere near the average transfan. For 'Posession' and
most of the other eps where G1 stuff came into play, they used the
movie as a basis, and the movie didn't mention how long the war(s)
were, which was, millions of years.
Of course, millions of years are made up of centuries (1 million years
= 10000 centuries, hehe), so she wasn't incorrect as she didn't name a
specific number, she just said centuries, really implying a long time
more than anything.
Jackpot
>
> These were really great posts, Jackpot, but like some others have said, I
> don't have a lot to say in response other than "nice job!".
Thank you!
>> However, some factors are left in the open, as though we're meant to
>> imagine they were there behind the scenes the whole time. For example,
>> Fractyl, Packrat, Onyx Primal, Vicegrip, and Apelinq are all supposedly
>> there during the Beast Wars, permanently offscreen for some reason.
>> Apelinq is the only one with a solid alibi: He's a visitor from the
>> future who goes out of his way to stay uninvolved. But no one else even
>> has an *origin* presented in the stories, much less a reason for being
>> invisible to cartoon viewers. I consider this to be a fairly large area
>> of conflict - if not quite flat-out contradiction - with BW,
>
> I really don't see this as a problem. All it means is that the BotCon
> stories are not set in the precise BW-toon continuity.
I agree, it doesn't have to be a *problem* if you don't want it to be,
since it's the same basic principle used by Bob 'n' Larry towards G1:
take what you like, alter things if necessary. The BotCon stories still
exist unto themselves, and they're still canon, no matter if they fit in
precisely with everything else or not. But still, if those four
exclusive characters aren't given reasonable explanations for their
absence, then the fact remains that that contradicts BW-as-we-know-it.
Add meaning as you see fit.
> Apelinq I'm not inclined
> to count; he didn't actually take part, right? He was just skulking
> about.
That is correct, sir.
- Jackpot (Or, more precisely, everything he DID do got erased from
history by the end.)
Jackpot
>
> Yeah, but 'another Decepticon named Shrapnel' completly takes away the
> G1 ref. That's like saying Optimus Prime led the Autobots millions of
> years ago, but not the Prime you all saw on TV and grew up with. I
> dunno, it's possible of course, but the 'cool factor' is all gone now.
Get used to it; "Armada" indications seem to be pointing toward a fair
bit of that....
> Of course, millions of years are made up of centuries (1 million years
> = 10000 centuries, hehe), so she wasn't incorrect as she didn't name a
> specific number, she just said centuries, really implying a long time
> more than anything.
Agreed.
What I don't understand is why so many people seem to think that the
Great War ended with "Rebirth." Both the 'Bots AND the 'Cons were in
better shape when that ep came to a close then they had been at the
beginning of season 3. It's certainly possible that the Autobots' vast
new energon supplies could've helped them win the war quite soon
afterwards (especially if dissention between the 'Cons and their Nebulan
allies proved detrimental). However, it's also possible that the 'Cons
and 'Lans were able to work together in spite of their petty disputes
because of the renewed Autobot threat. The 'Cons had conquered
Cybertron briefly during "Rebirth"; who's to say they couldn't do it
again before the 'Bots figured out how to fully utilize their newfound
resources? Or at least put up enough of a fight to prolong the Great
War for years, decades, centuries?
Incidentally, didn't something in BMach suggest that the end of the
Great War had been eons earlier? I'm tempted to think that it was
Iacon's existence as a lost, subterranean relic... but in the G1 'toon,
at least, the only time we even SAW Iacon was four million years ago, so
that doesn't necessarily mean anything....
- Jackpot
Jackpot
Thanks for the alternate theories. I object to them all, of course. ;)
But it's taken me quite a lot of thought to puzzle them out and narrow
down where I see problem areas. And I admit I still might not have
given it enough of a mental workout, so I'll appreciate any and all
critiques of my critiques.
Now have at ye, rogue!
Derik Smith wrote:
>
>>Jackpot wrote:
>>
>>If you do something in the past that undoes your own future,
>>and the effects can catch up to you while you're still in the past, then
>>you'll be forever caught in an oscillating causality loop.
>
> Ah, but your very analysis is predicated an a presumption of how time
> works. That is that there is no present,
The ability to rework history proves that there is no objective "present."
> and that time, while mutable, doe
> snot have changes ripple fore and back from their point of origin, like wave on
> a jump rope- but undergoes a state change, at one moment being one way, and
> then instantly another, changing past, present, and future simultaneously.
Whether there's a delay or not, the endless loop remains, and time can't
move on beyond the point of paradox. In the instant-state-change model,
the paradox is encapsulated in a single point. In the
temporal-wavefront model, the paradoxical moments are separated by a
delay, but they're still forever cancelling and reviving each other.
Let's use your example...
> Marvel and DC have both used time travel scenarios wherein a change in
> time has a 'temporal wavefront,' moving forward or backward in time at a
> measurable rate (Say, a twenty years a minute.) So, for instance, if you were
> In a lab, and you sent a nuke back in time to the hospital where you were born
> on the day you were born 20 years ago- youy'd have about 60 seconds to go
> through that portal and prevent the nuke's actual detonation before you were
> yourself erased.
Okay, let's say you go back before the 60 seconds is up and defuse the
bomb. You wouldn't be cancelling the first timewave (in this model,
there has so far been no method shown for doing that). Rather, you'd be
creating a *second* timewave that runs along behind the first, restoring
your existence.
While it seems like that might be good enough, the problem begins when
you assume that a timewave will follow you into the past. This, by your
theory, is what happened to Shokaract, Windrazor, and the Heralds when
the Dark Essence was uprooted. And it's what will happen when the first
timewave hits your future - the wave that contains your nonexistence.
First, the bomb will vanish from the past, since you weren't there to
build it. Then, moments later, you too will vanish from the past. But
this bombless, you-less past is yet another new timewave, one that looks
identical to the original, pre-time-travel scenario. And, of course, in
the original timeline, you grew up and built a bomb, which you sent 20
years into the past, which starts a new timewive...
Do you see how the loop never ends, how history will be forever
rewriting itself? This model doesn't solve the paradox at all; it just
puts a sixty-second gap right in the middle of it.
>>To add to the strangeness, Shokaract
>>was afraid for the Essence's well-being before he ever started monkeying
>>with the past. This is very confusing, since the Beast Wars were
>>already a part of history at that point.
>
> Perhaps Apelinq was already monkeying. (Tee-hee)
Ba dum bum.
> Apelinq had been there
> since early season 2... somehow emerging 2 years earlier than Primal Prime's
> crew departed ... and he was stuck there for 2 years, hiding, from BEFORE the
> time Antagony was sent back.
I don't understand what you mean by "before the time Antagony was sent
back." Do you mean the moment during the Beast Wars when Antagony
materialized, or the moment in the future when she left? Either way,
I'm afraid I don't see the relevancy. If you mean that Apelinq had been
doing stuff in BW for two years before he tangled with Antie, then I
don't understand how that pertains to Shokky's ability to send Heralds
back - or even exist at all - in the first place.
And if you mean that 'Linq had been doing stuff in the past for two
years before the future moment when Antagony departed, well, that
statement makes no sense to me. BMach came and went long before
Shokaract's era, with means 'Linq had already taken his temporal trip
(apparently uprooting the Dark Essence in the process) before Shokaract
even had a chance to be created.
>>If it was Apelinq's destiny to
>>send the Dark Essence away from prehistoric Earth, then the moment he
>>appeared there, all of the actions he was going to take would instantly
>>manifest themselves forward through history, and Shokaract's whole life
>>would blink out of existence before he even knew there was a lick of
>>danger.
>
> Who says that was his destiny?
Shokaract. Or, at least, that's what was implied when he got worried
about 'Linq's "artifact," coupled with the fact that Cataclysm was sent
back with a scanner that was specifically tuned to find the Dark Essence.
I suppose it's possible that 'Linq was going to do something ELSE, but
whatever it was, the fact remains that it would've already happened long
before Shokky had a chance to stop it - or perhaps even had a chance to
exist.
>>And to make things even a little more wacky, Shokaract was focused on
>>the "dimensional key," which seems to mean Apelinq's personal Transwarp
>>device - despite the fact that it had *nothing* to do with the Dark
>>Essence's eventual peril! However, is it possible that this is a clue?
>> Could it be that BW-as-we-know-it wasn't the threat at all? What if
>>Apelinq's appearance in the past was the temporal anomaly that needed to
>>be stopped? Could we suppose that, had 'Linq gone unmolested by
>>Shokaract's interference, he would've ended up disrupting the Dark
>>Essence with his transwarp powers somehow?
>
> The device in question is the Transfer Interlink (was it ever called a
> dimensional key? I couldn't find a ref to it...)
In "Herald," the fourth part of "Reaching the Omega Point," Antagony
thinks about her mission to retrieve "an artifact, a key capable of
breahing - or indeed sealing - the dimensional wall."
> You realize that EVERY example of time travel we have in the cartoon
> involves a predestination paradox?
Not a paradox, no. In G1, every instance of time-travel ended up with
everything exactly as it had started, which strongly suggests the
static-timeline model I mentioned earlier in this thread: Time-travel
cannot "change" the past because every instance of time-travel is
already *in* the past. There was no "original" history in which someone
else took Orion Pax to Alpha Trion; it's ALWAYS been the Aerialbots from
the future. "War Dawn" is a record of the sole history that ever
happened and ever will happen. Likewise, "Forever Is a Long Time
Coming." While it's notable that there was some temporal googly-moogly
happening in that ep (double Superions, baby Marissa, etc.), the Quint
scientist attributed it all to the simple fact that he'd left his time
machine on when he took off that morning, NOT that anything in history
was actually being changed. And, of course, at the end of the ep,
nothing was.
This was a very clean setup, not paradoxical because there was nothing
to contradict. It wasn't until BW that the irreconcilable conflicts
started happening. For instance, the mountain that Rampage blew up in
"Code of Hero": Its image on the Golden Disc was of a fully intact peak
- until, moments after Rampage obliterated it in the past, the picture
changed to reflect it. But this causes the exact same causality-loop
problem as "Omega Point." If the disc changed, then Megatron's previous
actions would've changed along with it. In the new past, Megs wouldn't
have thought to have Rampage destroy that particular mountain, since the
disc image was already rubble. He would've found a different peak, one
that was still intact in the disc records... which nullifies the first
mountain's destruction, making its picture reappear, which resets
everything to the way it originally happened, which changes the disc
image AGAIN, which... means an endless loop. Confine it into a single
moment, or spread it out for a few seconds with a timewave, and either
way, history is just stuck there forever, replaying itself for eternity.
And then there's the "timestorm," whatever the hell THAT was. Engulf
the Earth in a firestorm and destroy one if its moons right in the
middle of a pivotal time in human development, and history just keeps on
keepin' on, like nothing ever happened. But WOUND Prime, and all of
existence starts unraveling before he's even kicked the bucket.
In short, there were no temporal paradoxes in the TF 'toons till BW came
along. Then we got 'em good, but at least that makes the BC stories'
similar contradictions more forgivable.
> State change temporal mechanics make sense from a physics standpoint- but
> not a dramatic one. Very little in fiction uses them.
Which is why most time-travel fiction makes little sense. Events happen
because the creator feels like adding a dramatic moment, not because
they flow from any kind of rational setup.
> Imagine leaves, swirling in the wind. Such is time as it unfolds. Now
> imagine those leaves as light foam blocks, bounced and whipped against one
> another, coming to rest in different formations time and again...
> Imagine, by sheerest chance, a number of these blocks form into an arc, a
> more stable, self-supporting structure which resists the wind better. That arc
> has a begining, and an end- an origin and a terminus- and they support each
> other.
> This is Shokaract. As the possible shapes of the future waver and his
> comes into being- he rushes to secure his own fragile origin.
As poetic as that is, I don't really know what to DO with it. I don't
know how to analyze, well, *anything,* really, if linear
cause-and-effect is replaced with a swirling, dancing, self-organizing
process that forms structures with no particular relation to the arrow
of time.
I mean, I can *imagine* that the universe is probably bizarre enough to
be set up that way, and everything appears to be orderly to us because
*we're* the ones who're moving at an even pace in a straight line, not
the fundamental forces around us. Maybe history is in a constant state
of flux, but we never notice it because we have no way of checking on
it, and if a change ever *were* to sweep over the present, all our
memories would change too, and we still wouldn't know. Perhaps we'd
only discover some of this weirdness first-hand if we started
time-traveling. But, given that setup, literally anything becomes game.
Time-travel loses its punch because nothing is really a threat
anymore; without basic rules of causation guiding things along, a writer
can pull anything out of his ass and call it good.
> In the comics, US and UK, TFTM's 2005 WAS the future... up until US #61.
> Suddenly, that whole timeline, which had spawned repeated time travel back and
> forth, and Megatron making peace with the idea he will one day become
> Galvatron... was negated, and a new shape took hold.
> Prior to that change, we saw Unicron from 2005 reaching back and
> influencing people subconsciously. He sent 3 Autobots back to chase down
> Galvatron, Cyclonus and Skywarp and keep them from altering the past. He
> influenced the decision to build Autobot City so there would be a cataclysmic
> battle where Prime fell and placed the succession of Prime's in doubt. Unicron
> acting to secure his own timeline. (Well, more his own future there, but the
> point stands.)
> My point was... THE future changed, and a new shape- which began with
> Optimus Prime destroying Unicron in 1991, took hold. Could that new shape not
> just as easily included an evil int he far future who would then work to make
> sure his future remains the viable one?
No, because his own existence in his own time proves that there's no
need for him to alter the past to secure his own existence. It's like
someone in 2002 suddenly deciding to go back to the 50s to make sure her
dad doesn't get killed before she's conceived. Since, in the existing
history, Dad was NOT killed, there's absolutely no need to change
anything. We don't exist on one end of a fragile bridge of shifting
possibilities; the past is the past, over and done with. Now, if a
time-travelling assassin were to leave from 2002, and the daughter were
to IMMEDIATELY follow him, then I could see a possible case for it.
But, to bring this metaphor closer to the BC scenario, Apelinq is like a
time-travelling assassin leaving from the 70s, while Shokaract is the
daughter leaving from 2002. Since the assassin already changed history
30 years ago, the daughter never would've had a chance to *exist* in
that timeline, much less go back and stop him.
> But I digress. Remember how I told you to remember Apelinq departed from
> season 1 BM? Do so now. Then it might do you go to re-read the first scene of
> Omega Point part 2- Shokaracts' origin.
> Shokaract finds the Dark Essence SEVERAL YEARS into Megatron's rule of BM,
> as Megatron was spreading his influence wider throughout the galaxy.
*A* Megatron. As I said in my Big-Ass Treatise, it's unclear whether
that Megs was the same as BW or even G1 Megs, or was his own person.
> This
> NEVER HAPPENED in our timeline. Megatron was stopped. Shokaract comes from a
> timeline when the Maximals LOST Beast Machines. He makes explicit reference to
> it in the Botcon 2000 comic. He holds Megatron by the throat- but cannot kill
> him, because his own existance depends on Megatron surviving the Beast Wars and
> going on to conquor Cybertron.
All Shokky tells BW Megs is, "I'd rather not kill you, Megatron. There
are benefits to your continued existence I shall reap in years to come."
Those benefits could be *anything* - and considering that Megatron's
BMach actions completely changed Cybertron, it was probably a wise idea
on Shokky's part to spare him, even if his influence on Shokky's life
was entirely indirect. Thomas Edison doesn't mean anything to me
personally, but I wouldn't want to kill his infant self, since his
inventions helped shape the world that led to my birth.
> Apelinq needed his Transfer Interlink to create the antidote to Megatron's
> transformation lock virus. Would not that existance of THAT antidote pose a
> greater threat to Shoakract's timeline- cutting the Machine Era short- than
> anyting?
Perhaps. The problem is, anything 'Linq could've done with the antidote
would've already been done before Shokky was even created.
> The other part of the problem was- we never got to see Antagony or
> Cataclym's mission. We never saw/heard Shokaract's orders to them. All we
> really have is Antagony's behavior in the Botcon 98 script, which was to go
> after the artifact which was a key to breaking BM Megs hold on Cybertron.
We did have the look into Antagony's thoughts in "Herald," too. But
that was still pretty sparse, so I agree.
> Of course, I want a Megabolt Megatron toy recolored as The Hunter for this
> Botcon, so what do I know?
Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.
That would rule.
> That having been said- let me say how much I liked your post. It
> made me go back and fine-tooth Omega Point, which always leads to some fun
> discoveries,
Thank you. It was my pleasure.
- Jackpot (who just saw a job that needed to be done...)
Jackpot
>
> What I believe is
> that Shokaract is from an alternate post-BW world, where Meagtron was
> the VICTOR in the Beast Wars, and returned to Cybertron to conquer it
> by more traditional methods. This is why he has sentient, non-Vehicon
> underlings (the Hunter, for one) and there are scattered pockets of
> resistance, rather than Primal's band and a gazillion sparks in the
> basement.
One problem with this, though, is that Apelinq's experiences also had to
have happened in Shokaract's past, so Megatron's early arrival back on
Cybertron, the release of his virus, the unleashing of the drones, and
the eventual return of the Maximals all did occur. Now, it's possible
that Shokky's era resulted from a timeline in which Megatron won
*BMach,* since the BC stories only take us up to some point in season 1
before the time-paradox manifests itself. If Shokky was, in fact, from
a Megatron-wins-BMach future, then that outcome must have been changed
by either a) the Dark Essence being absent from Earth or b) Apelinq's
mysteriously-preserved memories of Omega Point. Or some combination of
the two. And it wouldn't have to be a direct cause; the Essence's
disappearance, in particular, could have had very broad, snowballing
effects throughout the eons that passed between BW and BMach.
> I miss the BCB fora.
> Sort of.
Yeah, me too.
- Jackpot (Kind of.)