Primacron, Primitives, and the Oracle (LONG) - deep analysis of "Call of the Primitives"
Grebo
Previosuly, in the the thread "Stormbringer: Primacron references?!?"
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N20135A9D
I wrote:
> I just rewatched "Call of the Primitives," and MAN there is
> a lot of mystery meat in that episode!!! More on that later.
Well, later is now!
There were many things which fascinate me about that episode. Of
course, it's always been one of my favorites for its highly stylized
anime visuals. (It actually looks a lot like the style of Machinerobo:
Revenge of Chronos and other Masami Obari projects.) And naturally, an
episode which offers the origin of Unicron -- well, *an* origin anyway,
and the first one I'd ever heard -- is automatically gonna be
noteworthy. But even when I first saw the episode, when it first aired
on TV, the episode was puzzling, disappointing, and frustrating.
Primacron was a total letdown. This lame little troll created Unicron?
Weak.
Now, on re-watching the episode, I've found *lots* of tidbits which
make the episode much more satisfying -- and invite tons of conjecture!
(My favorite thing.)
To begin with, let's get some terminology straight. Aside from an
assortment of Transformers, this episode introduces four new
characters: a little shrivelled alien, a talking glowy thing, a giant
energy-bug monster, and a robotic gorilla-looking thing.
Little Shrivelled Alien = THE CREATOR
Most people call him Primacron, as the episode certainly invites this
approach, but for my own reasons I want to call him something else for
now. Grimlock asks him to his face if he's the "creator," and the
little guy answers "unfortunately, yes." Ssssso, Im going to call the
little guy the Creator.
Talking Glowy Thing = THE ORACLE
Apparently, in the original script, the talking glowy thing is referred
to as "The Oracle." People who know Beast Machines might take special
notice of this. Oh, and if you want to check on this, refer to Chris
McFeely's "Secrets of the original scripts"
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z21031A9D
Of course "Call of the Primitives" was written decades before Beast
Machines, so any relation to BM's Oracle is almost certainly pure
coincidence -- especially since, as I understand it, BM's Oracle was
originally going to be called "Vector Sigma". However, coincidence or
not, I think that a lot can potentially be made of this connection. For
the purposes of this post, I'm calling the talking glowy thing "The
Oracle."
Energy-Bug Monster = TORNEDRON
Although it sounds like it might be "Tornatron" (which would be cool,
as that smacks of Tornado + Tron), that's not the energy monster's
name. The original script (again, refer to Chris McFeely's post) spells
the name "Tornedron". And, upon closely watching and listening to the
episode, they are indeed saying Tornedron. Wierd.
Robotic Gorilla Thing = THE CREATURE
Upon arriving on The Oracle's dead planet, the Dinobots see what Snarl
describes as a "strange creature". Apparently an apparition made of
energy, this creature looks something like an ancient Cybertronian with
a decidedly gorilla-esque shape and gait. This creature's image lures
Grimlock into sliding down a slope, which lets him discover The
Oracle's cave at the bottom. The same creature appears in The Oracle's
"long-ago story" (as Grimlock calls it) standing at The Creator's side.
According once again to the original script, The Oracle is "the
'energy-force' of a former Transformer 'primitive'." It seems fairly
safe to assume, therefore, that the Creature represents The Oracle's
body when he himself was a Primitive.
Alright, now that the terminology is clear, I'd like to ask a serious
question: Who Is Primacron? By this I don't mean, "what's the story
with The Creator?". What I do mean is, "Is the Creator actually
Primacron?" In search of an answer, I'm going to break down The
Oracle's long-ago story, line by line, with notes. It's worth it.
NEAR THE BEGINNING OF THE GALAXY, AN ORGANIC BEING WE SHALL KNOW AS
PRIMACRON BUILT SOME OF THE PRIMITIVES.
Alright now, first of all, "near the beginning of the galaxy" is an odd
statement. Was this near the time of the galaxy's start, or near the
place of its start? I'm not sure it matters either way, but it is
interesting to note. Moving on.
It seems that whoever Primacron is, "Primacron" isn't his real name.
Or, at least, it wasn't *always* his name. Note that The Oracle is
talking about a being "we *shall know as* Primacron." In other words,
this organic being was not at the time (and perhaps even now is not)
actually called Primacron.
Also interesting, the Oracle says "we" a lot. More on that later.
The Oracle says that Primacron built some of the primitives. I take the
"some" to mean that others were built later -- like the Dinobots. It
would seem, however, that Skylynx is one of these original,
Primacron-built primitives. I surmise this because Skylynx says "I
believe we're coming home" as he approaches The Oracle's dead world --
a world he also describes and a "very ancient and sacred place". My
personal suspicion is that the Terrorcons are also among the
Primacron-built primatives. It may be frivolous conjecture, but I say
it because the Terrorcons' beast modes (like Skylynx's) are not Earthly
or are at least only like creatures of Earth legend. What's more, when
Bot-vs-Con fighting breaks out inside Trypticon, the Terrorcons gladly
fight *everybody* -- which implies to me that they may hail from a time
before there were Bot and Con factions at all. (On the other hands,
maybe they're just too savage to care.)
AS HIS POWERS GREW, SO TOO DID HIS AMBITIONS.
During this part of the narration, the Creature is central in the
frame. The Creator's hands are frontmost in the shot, but ONLY his
hands. I think this is deliberate.
I've noticed that the way this episode is directed is rather strange.
Almost all shots of the Creator are focused on his hands. His face is
rarely shown, like his identity is supposed to be a mystery. Even so,
his face *is* shown early in episode. This inclusion, combined with the
subsequent absence of his face in many later key scenes, is perplexing.
I personally think this hide-and-seek, peek-a-boo camerawork with the
Creator's face is supposed to communicate a kind of subliminal doubt
about his identity.
HIS CREATIONS WERE BIGGER AND BIGGER, AND FINALLY... HE CREATED THE
MONSTROUS UNICRON.
It's worth noting that in this sequence, the Creator's lab (both inside
and outside) looks really old and shitty. Just like it does a little
while later when Grimlock busts in. The conclusion I draw from this is
that Unicron rebelled relatively recently.
How recently? Hard to say. If "near the beginning of the galaxy" refers
to time, then the Primitives were made around 10 billion years ago.
Pretty much ANY time would be recent compared to that! However,
considering that the cartoon puts the Autobot rebellion against the
Quintessons at 11 million years ago, I'm gonna surmise that "near the
beginning of the galaxy" refers to a place. This is reinforced by
Skylynx's dialogue, which says that the origin of the
Primitive-summoning signal comes from the center of the galaxy.
In any event, Creator's lab was decrepit at the time of Unicron's
attack. That says to me that the Creator and his lab were old by then,
and thus young/new (or at least less old) when the Primitives were
built.
UNICRON DECIDED TO RULE HIMSELF, AND TRIED TO DISPOSE OF PRIMACRON.
Unicron fires his eyebeams, punctures the wall of the Creator's lab (a
spherical space station), and blows up the Creature. Not the Creator --
the Creature.
HE FAILED, LEAVING PRIMACRON BROKEN, BUT ALIVE...
The Creator is injured by the attack as well. This next shot shows the
prone Creator's arms and hands engulfed in flames, still gripping
controls. However, the Creature has been blasted to bits -- a state one
might well describe as "broken". Then, rising above the wreckage of the
Gorilla-bot (perhaps, and even probably, rising out of that wreckage)
we see the Autobot Matrix of Leadership. (!!!) It rises up through a
hole in the cieling and vanishes.
The unmistakable visualization of the Matrix here is totally unexpected
and pretty confounding. It may well be an animation error -- someone
drew something they weren't supposed to, presumably through an art
direction mixup or what-have-you. But what if it's not an error? Food
for thought. It would, potentailly, bolster the idea of a connection
between this Oracle and BM's Oracle.
WHILE I, THE PRIMACRON'S "ASSISTANT", ESCAPED TO THIS DEAD WORLD.
Here the Oracle refers to "THE Primacron." This is odd. Kinda
interesting though. Makes Primacron sound more like a title than a
proper name. Which is fascinating to me.
Another valuable not from Chris McFeely's original scripts notes is
that the original script has The Oracle referring to himself as
Primacron's "assistant," in quotation marks - as if he wasn't really
Primacron's assistant at all. Listening to the dialogue, you can
almost hear the quotation marks. I may be reading too much into all
this, but I could swear I hear the same kind of intonation on the word
"built" in the first line ("...Primacron 'built' some of the
primitives") of the Oracle's long-ago story.
Odd, too, is the idea that the Oracle would escape TO the planet, if
this planet feels like home to Skylynx. Perhaps the lab orbited the
planet, and the primitives were built on its surface? Perhaps the
primitives have/had organic components -- maybe just their life-forces,
or sparks if you will -- and maybe these came from the planet? Millions
or billons of years ago the planet could have been alive. We know that
Transorganics (from the G1 episode "Dweller In The Depths") were
the first experiments that led to Transformers... It's not hard to
imagine Primitives as an intermediate step.
BUT, AS WITH ALL TYRANTS, UNICRON CAME TO HIS END.
Unicron goes blooey.
PRIMACRON THEN VOWED NOT TO MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE AGAIN.
The lab again. Lookin' cruddy as ever.
INSTEAD OF CREATING A BEAST OF MATTER, LIKE UNICRON, THAT COULD REBEL,
HE CREATED TORNEDRON, A CLOUD OF LIVING ENERGY THAT, LIKE A CANNIBAL,
FEEDS ON ENERGY, LEAVING SUNS DARK AND PLANET INERT -- BLANK SLATES TO
DO WITH AS HE PLEASES!
Talk about a run-on sentence. Anyway, the thing most noteworthy here is
that as this sentence runs on, the Oracle's voice seems to be getting
more and more energetic. Perhaps he's just adding drama, emphasizing
the danger posed by Tornedron. Or could he perhaps be excited by
Tornedron's capabilities?
PRIMACRON IS A CREATURE OF SOPHISTICATED BRILLIANCE. HIS POWERFUL BRAIN
CONCEIVES OF INFINITELY COMPLEX PLANS.
Remember that the Oracle is talking to, essentially, a bunch of
children here. The Primitives are not a very smart bunch. Even Skylynx,
for all his egotistical bluster, is amazingly singleminded and not
prone to asking questions. I, however, am marginally smarter than
Grimlock and to me the Creator -- screechy and ineffectual little troll
that he is -- really doesn't seem like a creature of sophisticated
brilliance who conceives of infinitely complex plans.
On the other hand, the Oracle is clearly a very poweful being. First of
all, he appears as a massive glowing cloud of rainbow light. Second of
all, he summoned all the Primtives to the center of the galaxy.
That's a long way for a message to travel instantaneously. And it's
quite a feat to get all those TFs, both Bot and Con, to drop whatever
they're doing (fighting, in this case), ditch their leaders and
comrades, and take a road trip together into the absolute unknown.
Furthermore, the Oracle can control not just Primitives, but other TFs
as well. Both Soundwave's and Blaster's beast cassettes eject without
consent. Soundwave says "Malfunction" and Blaster says "Something's
happening TO ME too." (My emphasis.) This tells me that the Oracle was
overrriding Blaster's and Soundwave's self-control. Now that's
powerful.
BUT, PERHAPS HE THINKS TOO HARD. PERHAPS YOUR SIMPLE INSTINCTS CAN
DEFEAT HIS PLANS.
Hey now. I'm no primitive, so I actually thought to ask... doesn't
this whole idea seem kinda shaky? The enemy is a zilllion-year-old
supergenius who was involved in *creating* the Transformers, so you
draft the dumbest of them to stop him? Any TF with two brain chips to
rub together would question this plan. And the Oracle's motivations.
And another thing! Just what is Primacron's plan, anyway? It's not
really clear. What is Tornedron supposed to be for? I'll get back to
this.
THEREIN LIES OUR GREATEST HOPE. THEREIN LIES OUR GREATEST FEAR.
Eh?!? Greatest hope, sure, but greatest fear? Sounds like the Oracle
has something to hide, alright. And I think what he's hiding is the
real reason why he called the Primitives -- they're the only ones too
dumb to realize that something's fishy with the Oracle! If he'd
trusted this mission (and his story) to smarter TFs, they'd have asked
way too many questions. So his greatest hope is that the Primitives
will stop the Creator, and his greatest fear is that they'll realize
he's not telling them what's really going on.
Yes, I said stop the Creator. It only *appears* that the Oracle wants
what anyone else would want, given the situation -- to stop Tornedron.
In actuality, the Oracle tells Grimlock quite plainly to "Search for
Primacron's lair and destroy him". Destroy Primacron. The Creator.
The Oracle doesn't say jack about Tornedron.
(Ironically, perhaps, the Primitives don't end up doing exactly what
the Oracle wanted. Grimlock doesn't kill the Creator. He just turns
off Tornedron and wrecks the Creator's lab.)
Okay, now, getting back to these "infinitely complex plans" that
the Oracle says "Primacron" is so good at. To understand the plan,
we must look at what the Creator says and does. Again, it's time to
dissect some dialogue.
At the beginning of the episode, Tornedron is being created:
NOW YOU ARE BUT A SINGLE ATOM. SOON YOU SHALL BE MORE. MUCH MORE! BEGIN
WITH THE FLAME. NOW, TORNEDRON, GROW ON ENERGON. YOU ARE MORE THAN I
COULD HAVE HOPED FOR, TORNEDRON. MUCH MORE! YOU SHALL SUCCEED WHERE THE
OTHER FAILED. HE WAS MATTER. YOU ARE ENERGY. HE FORGOT WHO RULED HIM.
YOU SHALL NOT!
"You shall succeed where the other failed." That's an interesting
line. Who's this "other"? One would assume it's Unicron.
However, what is it that Tornedron shall succeed at? What is it that
the other failed at? Well, the Oracle said that Tornedron was made to
render worlds inert and/or dead, turning them into blank slates for
Primacron to do with as he pleases. But Unicron was definitely not
designed to do that. Unicron *destroyed* planets. Ate 'em, chewed
'em up. Crunch. Gone. That being the case, is Unicron "the other"
that the Creator refers to? Or is the other someone else?
Moving forward a bit, we see Tornedron drain Cybertron of all energy:
ALREADY, TORNEDRON, YOU HAVE DONE MORE THAN YOUR PREDECESSOR...
UNICRON!
Here, Unicron is clearly cited as Tornedron's "predecessor". Fine
and dandy, but that does not necessarily mean that Unicron is the
aforementioned "other". Furthermore, this does not show us
Tornedron succeeding where Unicron failed. This just shows us, as the
Creator says, Tornedron doing more than Unicron. To wit: effectively
taking Cybertron's life.
A bit later, Tornedron drains the TFs on the moon, and then drains
Earth:
TWO PLANETS DEAD. NOW FOR THE PRIMITIVES!
Hm! From this I conclude that Tornedron's mission is *not* the defeat
of Earth and Cybertron. Rather, I think Tornedron drained them in order
to absorb enough energy to accomplish its mission.
When Tornadron attacks the Primitives, they run and split up. "He
can't follow us all!"
IS THAT SO? HONE YOUR HUNTING SKILLS ON THEM, TORNEDRON.
Aha! So Tornedron is a hunter. Interesting. Note also that Tornedron
takes a shape similar to whoever it is fighting. It becomes a dragon
for Trypticon, a tiger for the cassette beasts, a three-headed serpent
for the Terrorcons, a giant robot for Predaking, and (most tellingly) a
fusion of the Dinobots' altmodes when it fights them! It's a
tyrannosaur with a bronotosaurus neck, triceratops head, ankylosaurus
tail, and pterodactyl wings.
Soon enough Tornedron defeats the last of the Primitives (or so the
Creator thinks):
YOUR MISSION IS COMPLETE, TORNEDRON!
The Creator doesn't realize that Grimlock hasn't actually been
destroyed. But here we learn what Tornedron was made to do: he was made
to defeat the Primitives -- the Oracle's agents. And remember, the
Oracle himself was once a Primitive.
At this moment, Grimlock rises from under Trypticon. The Oracle says
"Only you can save the world now, Grimlock." Here again we see the
Oracle exploiting the Primitive's low intelligence. Save the world?
First of all, there are TWO worlds (Earth and Cybertron) that have been
drained. Second of all, destroying (killing) the Creator doesn't seem
like the best way to undo the damage Tronedron has done.
By now, Tornedron has stopped responding to the Creator's commands:
I ORDER YOU TO STOP, TORNEDRON!
The Creator already said that Tornedron's mission was complete. Now
he wants Tornedron to stop. I think that the Creator made Tornedron to
stop the Primitives... and that's all. It was all to protect himself.
Once Tornedron had defeated all the Primitives - the Oracle's
chosen agents -- the Creator told him to stop.
Sure, the Creator is selfish -- he sure didn't seem to care that two
worlds were drained by Tornedron -- but his motivation is not universal
destruction, domination, or manipulation. It's just
self-preservation.
Tornedron doesn't stop, tough. This gives us the Creator's
terrificly befuddled Treknobabble. Again, not very seemly for a
supremely brilliant being capable of infinitely complex plans!
Grimlock busts in, and, seeing the Creator, says "You are creator?"
and the little guy says, "Unfortunately, yes." Grimmy says,
"Grimlock laugh at little wimp who make big trouble!" and the
little wimp says "I will make no more, if we survive this." As
ever, the Creator doesn't come across as a supreme genius of infinite
complexity.
Next comes a very interesting exchange:
Grmilock says, "Grimlock order Primacron to make everything like it
was before!" If you pay attention, you'll notice that the Creator
doesn't actually respond directly to Grimlock's demands. Instead of
saying that he can't do what Grimmy wants, the Creator says "We are
finished! I've [insert Treknobabbly attempts at turning off Tornadron
here]!! I've tried everything!!!"
I find it interesting that the Creator here does nothing to confirm
that he is, in fact, Primacron.
Anyway, Grimlock then reveses Tornedron's polarity, which returns all
the stolen energy back to Earth, Cybertron, and the Transformers.
(Something that I should think would not have happened if Grimmy had
just killed the Creator like the Oracle wanted.) Again displaying his
"supreme brilliance," the Creator says "Why didn't I think of
that?"
What is my point with all this? I'm sure you've figured it out by
now. The Creator is not Primacron. The Oracle is not Primacron's
assistant. The Oracle is Primacron.
I know, I know... I'm still scratching my head about this one. There
are pieces that need to be fit into place. However, I'm sure I'm
right.
Shall we discuss?
Grebo!!!
Chris McFeely
> Little Shrivelled Alien = THE CREATOR
> Most people call him Primacron, as the episode certainly invites this
> approach, but for my own reasons I want to call him something else for
> now. Grimlock asks him to his face if he's the "creator," and the
> little guy answers "unfortunately, yes." Ssssso, Im going to call the
> little guy the Creator.
It will, in that case, likely fascinate you to know that the Sunbow
master cast list document, containing the writers notes on the
characters before the names in the scripts were finalised, does indeed
simply refer to Primacron as "The Creator." :) It has this to say about
him:
"An alien humanoid wimp, who happens to speak with deep, macho
amplified voice, and who throws a big, imposing shadow."
That says to me that the original intent for the episode was that we
really weren't supposed to see "the Creator" at all through the
episode, until the surprise discovery at the end that he's just a tiny
little monkey man. The single shot of his head that we briefly get
early in the episode really kills that.
Additionally, re your points on the state of Primacron's lab, there is
also a note about it, which indicates that the battered, ancient look
to it is intended to "harken back to an earlier age, a really "old
fashioned" looking, orbiting skylab with lots of rivots, quaintly
outmoded apparatus, etc."
Of course, with all taking into account what the original documents say
and using them as evidence in the discussion... the script itself DOES
just simply call the Creator "Primacron"...
Chris
Krypto
The switch Grimlock presses "The reverse switch". Is pressed about a
dozen times earlier in the episode with no effect.
Unless Primacron was simply too weedly to actually activate it - which
would make more sense as Grimlock would be that much more powerful.
Thats about it - I try not to over-analyse this kinda episode because
it features a load of retcons and sparse plausible plotting. I'll just
suggest that Primacron and "his assistant" fluked out creating
Tornadron and the rest of their verbage was exagerattions and lies.
Velvet Glove
that Call of the Primitives is Season 3's answer to Search for Alpha
Trion. An episode that introduces a whole slew of new elements to the
mythos, and none of them make the least bit of sense.
Call of the Primitives has always been ruined for me by that reverse
switch ending. It was such a total anticlimax. I assume the intention
was to show that Grimlock spotted the simple answer that the genius had
overlooked, but, well, it sucked. One flick of a switch will make
Tornedron go back and reverse all his previous actions? Uh.
But ignoring that, there's still a lot that doesn't make sense, as you
pointed out.
> What is my point with all this? I'm sure you've figured it out by
> now. The Creator is not Primacron. The Oracle is not Primacron's
> assistant. The Oracle is Primacron.
I'm happy to buy into a weedy little monkey alien being the creator of
Unicron. I like the ironic contrast of that. And since the script
calls him Primacron, then I'll go with taking things at face value
there. Ultimately, he's got to be called the Creator for a reason.
There aren't any quotation marks around that!
> Another valuable not from Chris McFeely's original scripts notes is
> that the original script has The Oracle referring to himself as
> Primacron's "assistant," in quotation marks - as if he wasn't really
> Primacron's assistant at all. Listening to the dialogue, you can
> almost hear the quotation marks. I may be reading too much into all
> this, but I could swear I hear the same kind of intonation on the word
> "built" in the first line ("...Primacron 'built' some of the
> primitives") of the Oracle's long-ago story.
I'm afraid, there aren't quotation marks around "built". I've just
checked the script on my DVD. The "Assistant" bit is interesting
though. I suspect he sees himself as more than an assistant. It's
quite possible that Primacron overestimated his abilities and
underestimated those of the Oracle. And/or that the two had a bit of a
falling out (Unicron seems appropriate tiff material).
> In actuality, the Oracle tells Grimlock quite plainly to "Search for
> Primacron's lair and destroy him". Destroy Primacron. The Creator.
This also goes against your theory. The Oracle says that Primacron
created Tornedron, and he tells Grimlock to destroy Primacron. Now,
unless he's making a very subtle bid for suicide or wilfully deceiving
Grimlock, then Primacron is the Creator. Also, you yourself are
assuming that the Creator did create Tornedron for his own purposes.
You can't have it both ways.
Incidentally, the cast list description of the Oracle:
** The "energy force" of a former Transformer "Primitive"; has a
strange "alien" quality to his voice. **
All quotation marks from the original. They seemed to like them for
that episode.
And on the totally random level, I see Spike and Daniel were supposed
to appear this episode. The mind boggles.
> YOUR MISSION IS COMPLETE, TORNEDRON!
>
> The Creator doesn't realize that Grimlock hasn't actually been
> destroyed. But here we learn what Tornedron was made to do: he was made
> to defeat the Primitives -- the Oracle's agents. And remember, the
> Oracle himself was once a Primitive.
See, now this is the bit that interests me. I never really thought
about that. And it fits in perfectly with the events of the episode,
even if it does leave the loose thread of *why* Primacron's afraid of
the Oracle.
> "You shall succeed where the other failed." That's an interesting
> line. Who's this "other"? One would assume it's Unicron.
> However, what is it that Tornedron shall succeed at? What is it that
> the other failed at? Well, the Oracle said that Tornedron was made to
> render worlds inert and/or dead, turning them into blank slates for
> Primacron to do with as he pleases. But Unicron was definitely not
> designed to do that. Unicron *destroyed* planets. Ate 'em, chewed
> 'em up. Crunch. Gone. That being the case, is Unicron "the other"
> that the Creator refers to? Or is the other someone else?
But if the "other" doesn't refer to Unicron, who does it refer to?
Another monster designed to take on entire planets? You have to wonder
who funds Primacron's research...
I can't refute your theory, but it does leave too many loose ends. Why
attack the Oracle? Who is the other? And, of course, just what was
Unicron's mission?
That latter is a major failing of the episode. It sets itself up as
being a backstory for Unicron--it does actually say who created him.
But, and despite Unicron's final babblings about his Destiny, we still
don't know why Unicron was created.
I suppose I'd like to assume that the "Other" does refer to Unicron.
And that the mission Tornedron completes is what Unicron was supposed
to complete. What was that? Nullifying all the
Transformers/Primitives. That's where I'd like to start conjecturing.
It also provides a possible link for the Matrix of Leadership, whether
that reference was intentional or not. Maybe the Oracle manage to
leave the Matrix with the Autobots at some point, knowing that
eventually Unicron would come for them. This way, they'd have the
necessary weapon to stop him.
Yeah... there's a load of problems with that theory (why not go after
Unicron himself? Why would Unicron continue his mission after he went
renegade?), but if we're looking for conjecture...
Velvet Glove (who isn't that keen on the animation style either,
although I'll admit it's beautifully done)
Steven Acevedo
Fun.
Trying to find "logic" in cartoons is like trying to find a missing
left sock.
Onslau...@gmail.com
Steven Acevedo wrote:
Yeah. That's true. And I don't doubt for a second that everyone in this
thread is a little bit aware of that.
The thing is, it's still fun to come up with reasons and fanfic and a
little bit of retcon to 'invent' some logical sense for this. Zobovor
did the same thing with his one fanfic where he retconned all three of
the Constructicon origins with timetravel. And that's Fun.
Because, hey, anybody can just use the cheap cop-out and go "uNiKrUn iZ
pRiMuSeS eVoL bRuDdEr!!!! i LiK jAaM!!" It takes somebody truly
intelligent to figure out Call of The Primitives.
Or somebody with 'no' life.
Kil - Michael McCarthy
news:1156213919....@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>
> It seems that whoever Primacron is, "Primacron" isn't his real name.
> Or, at least, it wasn't *always* his name. Note that The Oracle is
> talking about a being "we *shall know as* Primacron." In other words,
> this organic being was not at the time (and perhaps even now is not)
> actually called Primacron.
I think that's a little dubious.
> The Oracle says that Primacron built some of the primitives. I take the
> "some" to mean that others were built later -- like the Dinobots. It
> would seem, however, that Skylynx is one of these original,
> Primacron-built primitives. I surmise this because Skylynx says "I
> believe we're coming home" as he approaches The Oracle's dead world --
> a world he also describes and a "very ancient and sacred place".
Hmmm. I'd never actually thought of that before.
> My
> personal suspicion is that the Terrorcons are also among the
> Primacron-built primatives. It may be frivolous conjecture, but I say
> it because the Terrorcons' beast modes (like Skylynx's) are not Earthly
> or are at least only like creatures of Earth legend. What's more, when
> Bot-vs-Con fighting breaks out inside Trypticon, the Terrorcons gladly
> fight *everybody* -- which implies to me that they may hail from a time
> before there were Bot and Con factions at all. (On the other hands,
> maybe they're just too savage to care.)
It should also be noted that the Terrorcons were working for Quintessons in
"Money is Everything."
> HIS CREATIONS WERE BIGGER AND BIGGER, AND FINALLY... HE CREATED THE
> MONSTROUS UNICRON.
This line always makes me wonder: What _else_ did Primacron create? If his
creations were getting "bigger and bigger" there most of been intermediate
steps between whichever of the Primitives he created and the planet-sized
Unicron.
> If "near the beginning of the galaxy" refers
> to time, then the Primitives were made around 10 billion years ago.
> Pretty much ANY time would be recent compared to that! However,
> considering that the cartoon puts the Autobot rebellion against the
> Quintessons at 11 million years ago, I'm gonna surmise that "near the
> beginning of the galaxy" refers to a place. This is reinforced by
> Skylynx's dialogue, which says that the origin of the
> Primitive-summoning signal comes from the center of the galaxy.
I dunno, that seems a bit dubious to me as well.
> PRIMACRON IS A CREATURE OF SOPHISTICATED BRILLIANCE. HIS POWERFUL BRAIN
> CONCEIVES OF INFINITELY COMPLEX PLANS.
>
> Remember that the Oracle is talking to, essentially, a bunch of
> children here. The Primitives are not a very smart bunch. Even Skylynx,
> for all his egotistical bluster, is amazingly singleminded and not
> prone to asking questions. I, however, am marginally smarter than
> Grimlock and to me the Creator -- screechy and ineffectual little troll
> that he is -- really doesn't seem like a creature of sophisticated
> brilliance who conceives of infinitely complex plans.
He concieved and created a planet-sized Transformer. That may not be
_infinitely_, but its a pretty damn impressive engineering feat.
> Furthermore, the Oracle can control not just Primitives, but other TFs
> as well. Both Soundwave's and Blaster's beast cassettes eject without
> consent. Soundwave says "Malfunction" and Blaster says "Something's
> happening TO ME too." (My emphasis.) This tells me that the Oracle was
> overrriding Blaster's and Soundwave's self-control. Now that's
> powerful.
I diasgree. The overriding of Blaster and Soundwave was done by their
cassettes, in their answering of the Assistant's call. (I don't like calling
him "the Oracle", though I know he's so named in the script.)
> BUT, PERHAPS HE THINKS TOO HARD. PERHAPS YOUR SIMPLE INSTINCTS CAN
> DEFEAT HIS PLANS.
>
> Hey now. I'm no primitive, so I actually thought to ask... doesn't
> this whole idea seem kinda shaky? The enemy is a zilllion-year-old
> supergenius who was involved in *creating* the Transformers, so you
> draft the dumbest of them to stop him?
Not really. Primacron (yes, I think its clear that the "Creator" IS
Primacron) is being who massively overthinks stuff. That is his weakness. It
didn't even occur to him to flip the reverse switch, as it would to a more
simple-minded being. The idea couldn't have been that shaky since, after
all, it worked!
> THEREIN LIES OUR GREATEST HOPE. THEREIN LIES OUR GREATEST FEAR.
>
> Eh?!? Greatest hope, sure, but greatest fear? Sounds like the Oracle
> has something to hide, alright.
*shrug* Not to me. Just sounds like generically dramatic language.
> And I think what he's hiding is the
> real reason why he called the Primitives -- they're the only ones too
> dumb to realize that something's fishy with the Oracle! If he'd
> trusted this mission (and his story) to smarter TFs, they'd have asked
> way too many questions. So his greatest hope is that the Primitives
> will stop the Creator, and his greatest fear is that they'll realize
> he's not telling them what's really going on.
I'm not buying this. Sorry.
> Yes, I said stop the Creator. It only *appears* that the Oracle wants
> what anyone else would want, given the situation -- to stop Tornedron.
> In actuality, the Oracle tells Grimlock quite plainly to "Search for
> Primacron's lair and destroy him". Destroy Primacron. The Creator.
> The Oracle doesn't say jack about Tornedron.
"Him" could have meant Tornedron. Even if it didn't, at this point Tornedron
is still being controlled by Primacron. Destroying Primacron would thus stop
Tornedron.
> "You shall succeed where the other failed." That's an interesting
> line. Who's this "other"? One would assume it's Unicron.
It quite obviously IS Unicron.
> However, what is it that Tornedron shall succeed at? What is it that
> the other failed at? Well, the Oracle said that Tornedron was made to
> render worlds inert and/or dead, turning them into blank slates for
> Primacron to do with as he pleases. But Unicron was definitely not
> designed to do that. Unicron *destroyed* planets. Ate 'em, chewed
> 'em up. Crunch. Gone.
Think of the Death Star. Designed with the capacity to destroy planets, but
that was not its purpose. Its purpose was to instill fear, and through that
fear compell obedience to the Empire.
I figure Primacron built Unicron for similar reasons. "Do as I say of I'll
have my giant robot eat your planet!" Tornedron could have been intended
with a similar function in mind, i.e. "Do as U say or I'll have my giant
energy being drain your planet!" Or Primacron could have decided that
instead of instead of intimidating the universe, he'd just have Tornedron
wipe everyone out. Leaving blank slates, perhaps, to repopulate with more of
his own creations?
> Moving forward a bit, we see Tornedron drain Cybertron of all energy:
>
> ALREADY, TORNEDRON, YOU HAVE DONE MORE THAN YOUR PREDECESSOR...
> UNICRON!
>
> Here, Unicron is clearly cited as Tornedron's "predecessor". Fine
> and dandy, but that does not necessarily mean that Unicron is the
> aforementioned "other".
That moves beyond dubious and heads towards absurd. Unicron is the "other".
Period.
> A bit later, Tornedron drains the TFs on the moon, and then drains
> Earth:
>
> TWO PLANETS DEAD. NOW FOR THE PRIMITIVES!
>
> Hm! From this I conclude that Tornedron's mission is *not* the defeat
> of Earth and Cybertron. Rather, I think Tornedron drained them in order
> to absorb enough energy to accomplish its mission.
I think an alternative explanation is that "Now for the Primitives" is a
sidetrack mission in response to the Assistant's call.
> When Tornadron attacks the Primitives, they run and split up. "He
> can't follow us all!"
>
> IS THAT SO? HONE YOUR HUNTING SKILLS ON THEM, TORNEDRON.
>
> Aha! So Tornedron is a hunter. Interesting.
I don't quite know what to make of that one. Tornedron can drain whole
planets at once, why does he need to hone hunting skills by running down
small groups of Transformers? Perhaps for future use against individual
targets?
> Note also that Tornedron
> takes a shape similar to whoever it is fighting. It becomes a dragon
> for Trypticon, a tiger for the cassette beasts, a three-headed serpent
> for the Terrorcons, a giant robot for Predaking, and (most tellingly) a
> fusion of the Dinobots' altmodes when it fights them! It's a
> tyrannosaur with a bronotosaurus neck, triceratops head, ankylosaurus
> tail, and pterodactyl wings.
And aklyosaurus tail? Which Dinobot's altmode would that have come from? ; )
> Soon enough Tornedron defeats the last of the Primitives (or so the
> Creator thinks):
>
> YOUR MISSION IS COMPLETE, TORNEDRON!
>
> The Creator doesn't realize that Grimlock hasn't actually been
> destroyed. But here we learn what Tornedron was made to do: he was made
> to defeat the Primitives -- the Oracle's agents.
I don't think that statement means Tornedron was made to defeat the
Primitives. The "mission" being referred could just be the sidetrack one: to
stop the robots that the Assistant had called in.
> At this moment, Grimlock rises from under Trypticon. The Oracle says
> "Only you can save the world now, Grimlock." Here again we see the
> Oracle exploiting the Primitive's low intelligence. Save the world?
> First of all, there are TWO worlds (Earth and Cybertron) that have been
> drained.
"Save the world" could easily be taken to refer to something broader than a
single planet, and be a figure or speech for the galaxy or the entire
universe.
> Second of all, destroying (killing) the Creator doesn't seem
> like the best way to undo the damage Tronedron has done.
Who says anything about undoing damage? "Save the world" could suggest
saving the rest of the universe from the future harm Primacron and his pet
would inflict upon it. Even so, killing Primacron could allow someone else
to take control of Tornedron, which would provide the opportunity to undo
things, by throwing the ol' handy dandy reverse switch.
> By now, Tornedron has stopped responding to the Creator's commands:
>
> I ORDER YOU TO STOP, TORNEDRON!
>
> The Creator already said that Tornedron's mission was complete. Now
> he wants Tornedron to stop.
I think that order to stop was in response to Tornedron advancing on his
lab.
> I think that the Creator made Tornedron to
> stop the Primitives... and that's all. It was all to protect himself.
> Once Tornedron had defeated all the Primitives - the Oracle's
> chosen agents -- the Creator told him to stop.
>
> Sure, the Creator is selfish -- he sure didn't seem to care that two
> worlds were drained by Tornedron -- but his motivation is not universal
> destruction, domination, or manipulation. It's just
> self-preservation.
I.... really don't buy this theory at all.
> Anyway, Grimlock then reveses Tornedron's polarity, which returns all
> the stolen energy back to Earth, Cybertron, and the Transformers.
> (Something that I should think would not have happened if Grimmy had
> just killed the Creator like the Oracle wanted.)
Unless after Grimlock offed Primacron, the Assistant said "Okay, now use the
reverse switch and everything goes back to being a-okay." : )
> What is my point with all this? I'm sure you've figured it out by
> now. The Creator is not Primacron. The Oracle is not Primacron's
> assistant. The Oracle is Primacron.
Yeah.
Um.
No.
I mean, its a lot of interesting speculation and conjecture and theorization
you've got going there, but as I said, I just can't buy any of it.
-Kil
-----
Michael "Kil" McCarthy
http://kil-michaelmcc.livejournal.com
http://hometown.aol.com/michaelmcc79
Grebo
Before I move forward, I'd like to be clear. I will cede that my thesis
offers an unorthodox interpretation of "Call of the Primitives". But
come on -- when taken at face value, the episode is random, vague, and
(worst of all) disappointing. The interpretation of CotP I offer here
is an attempt to bring more meaning to the episode.
I'm well aware that for any question or mystery, the simplest answer is
usually correct -- and certainly, my thesis is not the simplest answer.
However, I do not think it is an *impossible* thesis. Of course anyone
is free to disagree, but I think that I have done a pretty thorough job
of offering an alternate interepretation of CotP which is, if not
likely, at least viable.
Anyway, I see the ever-attentive Kil - Michael McCarthy has replied.
Cool! He wrote:
> > It seems that whoever Primacron is, "Primacron" isn't his real name.
>
> I think that's a little dubious.
Maybe, maybe not... But come on. Given the wording of the Oracle's
statement (...a being we shall come to know as Primacron..."), wouldn't
you say that there is at least a slight POSSIBILITY that the Creator is
not or was not always called Primacron?
Skylynx being one of the original crop of Primitives:
> Hmmm. I'd never actually thought of that before.
Yeah, me neither. Certainly casts the pompous chimera in a new light,
eh?
> It should also be noted that the Terrorcons were working for Quintessons in
> "Money is Everything."
True! The Terrorcons are very poorly fleshed-out characters. Their
origins, allegiance, and motivation are all unclear (at least in the
cartoon).
> > HIS CREATIONS WERE BIGGER AND BIGGER, AND FINALLY... HE CREATED THE
> > MONSTROUS UNICRON.
>
> This line always makes me wonder: What _else_ did Primacron create? If his
> creations were getting "bigger and bigger" there most of been intermediate
> steps between whichever of the Primitives he created and the planet-sized
> Unicron.
Me too! Ya gotta wonder. Perhaps Metroplex? It would be great if we
could say he built Trypticon, but IIRC the cartoon specifically says
that Trypticon was built on Earth... or am I wrong about that?
Parenthetically, I'd love to see some transforming "Battle Moons" (ala
War Planets) in Transformers someday.
On "near the beginning of the galaxy" referring to a place, not a time:
> I dunno, that seems a bit dubious to me as well.
Why? I think I did a pretty darn good job of making my case... :-(
On my comment that The Creator really doesn't seem like "a creature of
sophisticated brilliance who conceives of infinitely complex plans":
> He concieved and created a planet-sized Transformer. That may not be
> _infinitely_, but its a pretty damn impressive engineering feat.
But remember, I am postulating that the Creator is NOT Primacron, and
that therefore the Creator most likely did NOT conceive and/or create
Unicron. If, as I suspect, the Oracle is actually Primacron (and thus
the driving force behind the creation of Unicron), then the Creator
fits the role of Assistant -- which is what he acts like.
I mean, come on, doesn't the Creator in this episode remind you of
IGOR? That's the way I see things here -- the Creator is Igor to the
Oracle's Dr. Frankenstein.
On the subject of the Oracle being able to control other TFs (Soundwave
and Blaster):
> I diasgree. The overriding of Blaster and Soundwave was done by their
> cassettes, in their answering of the Assistant's call.
Do we know this for a fact? No, we do not.
In fact, in the dialogue, Soundwave says "Malfunction" and Blaster says
"Something's happening to me too" -- both of these lines suggest to me
that something is effecting Soundwave and Blaster, making it possible
for the beast-cassettes to answer the call.
Question: In any other episode, has there ever been any evidence that
cassettes can force their way out of Soundwave and/or Blaster? (I don't
remember any, but other might.)
> (I don't like calling him "the Oracle", though I know he's so named in the script.)
I understand. I'm using it for ease of reference (though it does also
lend itself to my interpretation).
Moving along, I asked:
> > doesn't this whole idea seem kinda shaky? The enemy is a zilllion-
> > year-old supergenius who was involved in *creating* the Transformers,
> > so you draft the dumbest of them to stop him?
>
> Not really. Primacron (yes, I think its clear that
> the "Creator" IS Primacron)
Well, I think that is the most immediately obvious conclusion, but not
the ONLY conclusion one can draw from the episode. Furthermore, it
seems to me that the episode is deliberately vague, obfuscating, and
misleading in this regard (and others).
> is being who massively overthinks stuff. That is his weakness. It didn't
> even occur to him to flip the reverse switch, as it would to a more simple-
> minded being. The idea couldn't have been that shaky since, after all, it worked!
You may be missing my point -- which is easy to do, as I hadn't fully
figured it out myself until just now (see below). Anyway, what I was
trying to say is this: If The Creator is the super-brilliant Primacron
then The Oracle's plan strikes me as really shaky. However, if The
Creator is NOT actually Primacron, then the Oracle's plan is NOT shaky.
The speaker, the Oracle, IS a creature of sophisticated brilliance who
conceives of infinitely complex plans... and THAT is WHY his plan to
use the Primitives worked.
So as I was saying above, I just fully figured this all out!!!
"Primacron" is a TITLE. (That's why the Oracle says "the Primacron" at
one point!) At the time of the episode, the Oracle is no longer
Primacron. Once the Oracle's body was destroyed, his assitant (the
Creator) took over and assumed the title of Primacron. But the ORACLE
was Primacron when the Primitives and Unicron were created. Nowadays
the Creator is "The Primacron"... he's just not as good at it as the
Oracle was. Ahhh yes, this makes PERFECT sense to me. (snaps fingers)
Imagine it: Igor serves Dr. Frankenstein for a looong time, working the
Doc's machines and physically assembling all the Doc's crazy creations.
One day, the Doc is killed by one of his creations, or lynched, or
what-have-you. Finally, Igor's day has come -- Igor decides to take
over the role of "Dr. Frankenstein" himself. He would't be as good at
it as the real Doc was, but he could probably manage to cause some
trouble...
Yes. This is IT.
> > THEREIN LIES OUR GREATEST HOPE. THEREIN LIES OUR GREATEST FEAR.
> >
> > Eh?!? Greatest hope, sure, but greatest fear? Sounds like the Oracle
> > has something to hide, alright.
>
> *shrug* Not to me. Just sounds like generically dramatic language.
I must admit I'm surprised that you see nothing strange in the Oracle's
line, here. Whatever it might mean, it seems strange to me. At face
value, the Oracle explains his plan to the Primitives; he tells them
their simple insticts may defeat "Primacron"; that is his/their
greatest hope... and fear.
Fear? WHAT is the greatest fear? That his plan will work??? That's
basically what he's saying. It only make sense -- to me, anyway -- if
the Oracle is hiding something. Like the real reason he chose the
Primitives. Even better, like the possibility that when the Oracle says
"our" (as in our greatest fear) he's referencing the fact that he too
is (well, was) "a Primacron".
Like I said, he's (also) hiding the real reason why he called the
Primitives -- they're the only ones too dumb to realize that
something's fishy is going on.
> I'm not buying this. Sorry.
Any reasons? Again, I think I've done a pretty good job of showing that
the possibility EXISTS. I may not be right, but I do think my theory
holds at least *some* water.
I pointed out that the Oracle says "Search for Primacron's lair and
destroy him." (As in, Destroy Primacron -- the Creator -- not
Tornedron.)
> "Him" could have meant Tornedron.
Not to be contrite, but I think you're the one who's drawing dubious
assumptions here. It is possible, I suppose, but it's a pretty drastic
reach to my eyes. "Search for Primacron's lair and destroy him" is
pretty darn explicit.
> > Who's this "other"? One would assume it's Unicron.
>
> It quite obviously IS Unicron.
Well, like I keep saying, that is what the episode invites us to
believe. But I think that the episde is deliberately misleading and
vague. I think it's quite obvious we're supposed to ASSUME that "the
other" refers to Unicron. However, my deep analysis of the episode has
led me to question this very basic assumption.
That's what Im doing here -- questioning basic assumptions. Yes, there
is a kind of "conspiracy theory" flavor to the extent and scope of my
thesis. However, I find mining for secret knowledge to be fun and, as a
mental exercise, I think this particular mining exercise bears some
promising ore. Or fruit. Or whatever serves my metaphor here... :-P
Anyway. I suggest that Tornedron and Unicron were not made for the same
purpose...
> Think of the Death Star. Designed with the capacity to destroy planets, but
> that was not its purpose. Its purpose was to instill fear, and through that
> fear compell obedience to the Empire.
>
> I figure Primacron built Unicron for similar reasons. "Do as I say of I'll
> have my giant robot eat your planet!" Tornedron could have been intended
> with a similar function in mind, i.e. "Do as I say or I'll have my giant
> energy being drain your planet!" Or Primacron could have decided that
> instead of instead of intimidating the universe, he'd just have Tornedron
> wipe everyone out. Leaving blank slates, perhaps, to repopulate with more of
> his own creations?
These are good points. They make *perfect* sense. I commend you! The
thing is, the episode never actually says this -- indeed, it never
actuallys says anything about Unicron's and/or Tornedron's purpose.
That being the case, you and I can both exploit this shortcoming to
speculate in support of our own respective arguments.
> > Here, Unicron is clearly cited as Tornedron's "predecessor". Fine
> > and dandy, but that does not necessarily mean that Unicron is the
> > aforementioned "other".
>
> That moves beyond dubious and heads towards absurd. Unicron is the "other".
> Period.
I think you're jumping to your conclusion. The episode certainly
invites one to believe that Unicron is the "other", but it does not
concretely SAY SO. There are few absolutes... *especially* when one is
talking about Call of the Primitives!
Next. I postulated that Tornedron was made to drain planetary energy
and use it to fight the Primitives.
> I think an alternative explanation is that "Now for the Primitives" is a
> sidetrack mission in response to the Assistant's call.
That is definitely another explanation. A completely viable and likely
one. In fact, it is (once again) the one the episode invites us to
take. I'm just sayin', something else might be goin' on here...
> > Aha! So Tornedron is a hunter. Interesting.
>
> I don't quite know what to make of that one. Tornedron can drain whole
> planets at once, why does he need to hone hunting skills by running down
> small groups of Transformers? Perhaps for future use against individual
> targets?
Could be. Another good, viable possibility. I can speculate all day
that there's something special about the Primitives that would require
Tornedron (under other circumstances, perhaps) to be a capable
hunter... however, any specifics of such speculations would be based on
nothing.
> > But here we learn what Tornedron was made to do: he was made
> > to defeat the Primitives -- the Oracle's agents.
>
> I don't think that statement means Tornedron was made to defeat the
> Primitives. The "mission" being referred could just be the sidetrack one: to
> stop the robots that the Assistant had called in.
True, that's entirely possible -- even likely, perhaps. One's "mission"
does not have to be the same as one's "reason for being." Heck, one can
undertake many missions in a lifetime. But then again, there's that
phrase about one's "mission in life", so... It could go either way,
IMO.
On the Oracle's overly simplistic "Only you can save the world now,
Grimlock" statement:
> "Save the world" could easily be taken to refer to something broader than a
> single planet, and be a figure or speech for the galaxy or the entire
> universe.
True, very true. Grimlock himself talks about saving the galaxy and the
universe when he stops Primacron. I just think that the writer's choice
of words here is deliberate (after all, ANYTHING one commits to paper
is deliberate) and therefore one can speculate on why he chose that
phrasing, specifically.
> > Second of all, destroying (killing) the Creator doesn't seem
> > like the best way to undo the damage Tronedron has done.
>
> Who says anything about undoing damage?
Good point. The Oracle doesn't ever say anything about undoing the
damage Tornedron has already done.
> Even so, killing Primacron could allow someone else to take control
> of Tornedron, which would provide the opportunity to undo
> things, by throwing the ol' handy dandy reverse switch.
This is also true. You make a good point here. A very logical one.
However, the way the episode is written and directed, there is still
room for my interpretation. It may be wrong, but there is nothing in
the episode which establishes that I am *definitely* wrong.
Same goes for the bit about the Creator telling Tornedron to "stop"...
Although you'll notice that when the Creator tells Primacron to stop,
there has not yet been any evidence that Tornedron is threatening the
Creator's lab. In fact, it is immediately *after* the Creator tells
Tornedron to stop that the energy creature actually starts acting
threatening.
> > Sure, the Creator is selfish <snip>
> > but his motivation is not universal destruction,
> > domination, or manipulation. It's just
> > self-preservation.
>
> I.... really don't buy this theory at all.
Fair enough. But you should take note that nowhere in the episode does
the Creator himself express any desire to destroy, dominate, or
manipulate the world, galaxy, or universe. Therfore, his motives are
open to interpretation. What's more, when Grimlock busts him, the
Creator gives up and promises to stop "causing trouble" immediately. He
demonstrates a marked lack of willpower and determination -- traits
that most supervillains tend to display. Admittedly, he could just be
playing possum and/or lying...
> > Anyway, Grimlock then reveses Tornedron's polarity, which returns all
> > the stolen energy back to Earth, Cybertron, and the Transformers.
> > (Something that I should think would not have happened if Grimmy had
> > just killed the Creator like the Oracle wanted.)
>
> Unless after Grimlock offed Primacron, the Assistant said "Okay, now use the
> reverse switch and everything goes back to being a-okay." : )
But did Grimlock actually KNOW what he was doing when he flipped that
switch. I seriously doubt that he was. I think it was just blind luck
that what he did worked. I assume you don't think this is the case, but
I will say that I ALWAYS thought this was the case -- even the first
time I saw the episode oh-so-long ago. (I wonder how many other people
feel this way?)
Anyway, my supposition is that Grimmy didn't know what he was doing and
it was just dumb luck that he flipped the right switch. Furthermore, if
the Creator hadn't been alive to exclaim about what Grimmy did and how
well it worked, Grimmy may well have not known that his random
switch-flipping actually DID work.
> > The Oracle is Primacron.
>
> Yeah.
>
> Um.
>
> No.
>
> I mean, its a lot of interesting speculation and conjecture and theorization
> you've got going there, but as I said, I just can't buy any of it.
OK, fine, be that way! Mister Contrary-pants!!! :-)
Actually, in light of this post, I'd have to (happily!) refine my
thesis:
The Creator is an "unqualified usurper" to the title of Primacron. The
Oracle was the original Primacron, with the Creator as his assitant,
and such it is the Oracle who made the Primitives and Unicron.
Woot! There it is.
Grebo
Kil - Michael McCarthy
>> > It seems that whoever Primacron is, "Primacron" isn't his real name.
>>
>> I think that's a little dubious.
>
> Maybe, maybe not... But come on. Given the wording of the Oracle's
> statement (...a being we shall come to know as Primacron..."), wouldn't
> you say that there is at least a slight POSSIBILITY that the Creator is
> not or was not always called Primacron?
Actually, yes, I do think that is a possibility.
> Me too! Ya gotta wonder. Perhaps Metroplex? It would be great if we
> could say he built Trypticon, but IIRC the cartoon specifically says
> that Trypticon was built on Earth... or am I wrong about that?
We see Trypticon's creation on Earth in FFOD.
> On "near the beginning of the galaxy" referring to a place, not a time:
>
>> I dunno, that seems a bit dubious to me as well.
>
> Why? I think I did a pretty darn good job of making my case... :-(
It just seems to me the idea is supposed to be that Primacron and his
Assistant date back to imponderably ancient times, thus "beginning of the
galaxy" more likely is intended as a time reference than a location
reference.
> On my comment that The Creator really doesn't seem like "a creature of
> sophisticated brilliance who conceives of infinitely complex plans":
>
>> He concieved and created a planet-sized Transformer. That may not be
>> _infinitely_, but its a pretty damn impressive engineering feat.
>
> But remember, I am postulating that the Creator is NOT Primacron, and
> that therefore the Creator most likely did NOT conceive and/or create
> Unicron. If, as I suspect, the Oracle is actually Primacron (and thus
> the driving force behind the creation of Unicron), then the Creator
> fits the role of Assistant -- which is what he acts like.
Yes, well, obviously I don't agree with the premise, as I think obviously
the Creator IS Primacron. :)
> In fact, in the dialogue, Soundwave says "Malfunction" and Blaster says
> "Something's happening to me too" -- both of these lines suggest to me
> that something is effecting Soundwave and Blaster, making it possible
> for the beast-cassettes to answer the call.
Note that right after Soundwave says "Malfunction" he adds "Ejection is
self-activating." Yes, as you say, something _is_ effecting Soundwave and
Blaster, making it possible for the beast-cassettes to answer the call. That
something being the beast-cassettes themselves, ejecting on their own in
violation of the normal procedure, and likely overriding their hosts'
systems in order to do it.
> Question: In any other episode, has there ever been any evidence that
> cassettes can force their way out of Soundwave and/or Blaster? (I don't
> remember any, but other might.)
I don't remember any either. It certainly isn't how it normally works, hence
Soundwave's "malfunction" and Blaster's "Something's happening to me too." I
think the idea that its the cassettes doing it make a lot more since that
the Oracle/Assistant having the ability to remotely override them.
>> (I don't like calling him "the Oracle", though I know he's so named in
>> the script.)
>
> I understand. I'm using it for ease of reference (though it does also
> lend itself to my interpretation).
My dislike of calling the character "Oracle" stems from a desire not to see
it tied to the Beast Machines Oracle, as I don't think they have anything to
do with each other. Although others might, and who knows, I could be wrong
on that..
> You may be missing my point -- which is easy to do, as I hadn't fully
> figured it out myself until just now (see below). Anyway, what I was
> trying to say is this: If The Creator is the super-brilliant Primacron
> then The Oracle's plan strikes me as really shaky. However, if The
> Creator is NOT actually Primacron, then the Oracle's plan is NOT shaky.
> The speaker, the Oracle, IS a creature of sophisticated brilliance who
> conceives of infinitely complex plans... and THAT is WHY his plan to
> use the Primitives worked.
>
> So as I was saying above, I just fully figured this all out!!!
>
> "Primacron" is a TITLE. (That's why the Oracle says "the Primacron" at
> one point!) At the time of the episode, the Oracle is no longer
> Primacron. Once the Oracle's body was destroyed, his assitant (the
> Creator) took over and assumed the title of Primacron. But the ORACLE
> was Primacron when the Primitives and Unicron were created. Nowadays
> the Creator is "The Primacron"... he's just not as good at it as the
> Oracle was. Ahhh yes, this makes PERFECT sense to me. (snaps fingers)
>
> Imagine it: Igor serves Dr. Frankenstein for a looong time, working the
> Doc's machines and physically assembling all the Doc's crazy creations.
> One day, the Doc is killed by one of his creations, or lynched, or
> what-have-you. Finally, Igor's day has come -- Igor decides to take
> over the role of "Dr. Frankenstein" himself. He would't be as good at
> it as the real Doc was, but he could probably manage to cause some
> trouble...
>
> Yes. This is IT.
Heh. Well, that certainly is a creative interpretation of the events, I'll
give you that, even if I still don't agree with it. : )
> I must admit I'm surprised that you see nothing strange in the Oracle's
> line, here. Whatever it might mean, it seems strange to me. At face
> value, the Oracle explains his plan to the Primitives; he tells them
> their simple insticts may defeat "Primacron"; that is his/their
> greatest hope... and fear.
>
> Fear? WHAT is the greatest fear? That his plan will work??? That's
> basically what he's saying. It only make sense -- to me, anyway -- if
> the Oracle is hiding something.
See, I think it's just flowerly language, chosen for dramatic effect, with
no real deeper or hidden meanings. Although I will admit I could be wrong,
and there may be something more to this "greatest fear" thing.
> Like I said, he's (also) hiding the real reason why he called the
> Primitives -- they're the only ones too dumb to realize that
> something's fishy is going on.
>
>> I'm not buying this. Sorry.
>
> Any reasons? Again, I think I've done a pretty good job of showing that
> the possibility EXISTS. I may not be right, but I do think my theory
> holds at least *some* water.
Okay, yes. I will grant that your theory is, at least, possible. I just
don't think its probable.
> I pointed out that the Oracle says "Search for Primacron's lair and
> destroy him." (As in, Destroy Primacron -- the Creator -- not
> Tornedron.)
>
>> "Him" could have meant Tornedron.
>
> Not to be contrite, but I think you're the one who's drawing dubious
> assumptions here. It is possible, I suppose, but it's a pretty drastic
> reach to my eyes. "Search for Primacron's lair and destroy him" is
> pretty darn explicit.
Well, "Search for Primacron's lair and destroy him" was said in context of
the overall fight against Tornedron, so "him" could refer to either him or
Primacorn. Um. Maybe.
>> > Who's this "other"? One would assume it's Unicron.
>>
>> It quite obviously IS Unicron.
>
> Well, like I keep saying, that is what the episode invites us to
> believe. But I think that the episde is deliberately misleading and
> vague.
I think the episode _is_ misleading and vague, but I doubt there was
anything _deliberate_ about it.
>> Think of the Death Star. Designed with the capacity to destroy planets,
>> but
>> that was not its purpose. Its purpose was to instill fear, and through
>> that
>> fear compell obedience to the Empire.
>>
>> I figure Primacron built Unicron for similar reasons. "Do as I say of
>> I'll
>> have my giant robot eat your planet!" Tornedron could have been intended
>> with a similar function in mind, i.e. "Do as I say or I'll have my giant
>> energy being drain your planet!" Or Primacron could have decided that
>> instead of instead of intimidating the universe, he'd just have Tornedron
>> wipe everyone out. Leaving blank slates, perhaps, to repopulate with more
>> of
>> his own creations?
>
> These are good points. They make *perfect* sense. I commend you! The
> thing is, the episode never actually says this -- indeed, it never
> actuallys says anything about Unicron's and/or Tornedron's purpose.
> That being the case, you and I can both exploit this shortcoming to
> speculate in support of our own respective arguments.
The episode is indeed full of shortcomings, allowing for much speculation in
a great many directions.
> I think you're jumping to your conclusion. The episode certainly
> invites one to believe that Unicron is the "other", but it does not
> concretely SAY SO. There are few absolutes... *especially* when one is
> talking about Call of the Primitives!
"You shall succeed where the other failed. He was matter; you are energy. He
forgot who ruled him. You shall not."
"Already, Tornedron, you have done more than your predecessor, Unicron."
Okay, so it's not explicitly spelled out in absolute incontrivertable detail
that "the other" is Unicron. But it's more than good enough for me.
:::snippage:::
> This is also true. You make a good point here. A very logical one.
> However, the way the episode is written and directed, there is still
> room for my interpretation. It may be wrong, but there is nothing in
> the episode which establishes that I am *definitely* wrong.
I suppose there is room for some your wacky (no offense intended)
interpretations to fit as well. I just don't see a need to stretch things as
far as you do. The idea that the character we believe to be Primacron
actually _isn't_.... that's just a stretch too far, for me.
Gustavo Wombat
Kil - Michael McCarthy wrote:
> "Grebo" <greb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156213919....@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> > And I think what he's hiding is the
> > real reason why he called the Primitives -- they're the only ones too
> > dumb to realize that something's fishy with the Oracle! If he'd
> > trusted this mission (and his story) to smarter TFs, they'd have asked
> > way too many questions. So his greatest hope is that the Primitives
> > will stop the Creator, and his greatest fear is that they'll realize
> > he's not telling them what's really going on.
>
> I'm not buying this. Sorry.
I agree. Lots of Transformers are stupid, as evidenced by "A Prime
Problem", and countless other G1 episodes. SkyLynx, despite being a
primative, is actually one of the smarter ones.
--Gustavo
Grebo
I'm convinced that "The Oracle" was the original Primacron. Once
Unicron blew up "The Oracle"s body, his assitant (the notably Igor-like
"Creator") took over the mantle of being "The Primacron" and made
Tornedron in an attempt to outdo his onetime master. At this point, I'm
almost 100% convinced of this.
Those here who are familiar with Gnosticism will remember the idea of
the Demiurge: an impostor God who creates an imperfect universe. The
wrinkled, runty, little Primacron we see in this episode -- "The
Creator" -- fits this role quite well.
I continue to bite my nails about the nature of "The Oracle", the TRUE
Primacron. His robo-ape body, his Matrix of Leadership "escape pod",
his residence on the planet at the center of the galaxy, his ability to
control Transformers, and his manifestation as a rainbow light are
confounding.
In some ways, the episode invites one to imagine that "The Oracle" is
Primus. However, that really doesn't fit. Right now I'm leaning toward
the idea of Primacron (that is, The Oracle) being THE ONE. That is, the
being who created both Primus and Unicron. It would explain his name,
his powers, and it would also help explain why The Matrix of Leadership
can kill Unicron.
Consider: Unicron and Primus have fought before. Primus could not beat
Unicron. That's the whole reason why Primus pulled the stunt of
trapping Unicron and himself in planetoids. So if Primus can't beat
Unicron, why is it that a mere fragment of his life-force (what we've
been told the Matrix is) could destroy the Chaos Bringer? However, if
the Matrix were a fragment/element of The One -- the creator of Primus
in the first place -- it would make a lot more sense that it would be
deadly to Unicron.
These kinds of thoughts also make me think that the planet where the
Primitives meet "The Oracle" may be Protos. (The moon of Methuselah
mentioned in Omega Point as the home of the Covenant of Primus, the
first Transformers.)
>From Omega Point part 1: Covenant
"Locked in a synchronous orbit with the impossibly vast and infinitely
ancient world they called Methuselah, Protos was cast forever in its
massive shadow, afforded only the most tantalizing of glimpses of the
galaxy's solar centerpiece."
Interesting to note that the center of the galaxy is mentioned in
Protos' description!
Of course, if "The Oracle" -- the original, true Primacron -- is in
fact The One, then some of the acts attributed to Primus (particularly
the creation of the 12 Covenant of Primus TFs) may actually have been
performed by The One. (Which I'm OK with.)
Grebo
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> I'm still ruminating on this mysterious episode.
>
> I'm convinced that "The Oracle" was the original Primacron. Once
> Unicron blew up "The Oracle"s body, his assitant (the notably Igor-like
> "Creator") took over the mantle of being "The Primacron" and made
> Tornedron in an attempt to outdo his onetime master. At this point, I'm
> almost 100% convinced of this.
I still think you to be totally wrong on that, although it certainly makes
for an interesting area of speculation and theory.
> Those here who are familiar with Gnosticism will remember the idea of
> the Demiurge: an impostor God who creates an imperfect universe. The
> wrinkled, runty, little Primacron we see in this episode -- "The
> Creator" -- fits this role quite well.
>
> I continue to bite my nails about the nature of "The Oracle", the TRUE
> Primacron. His robo-ape body, his Matrix of Leadership "escape pod",
> his residence on the planet at the center of the galaxy, his ability to
> control Transformers, and his manifestation as a rainbow light are
> confounding.
>
> In some ways, the episode invites one to imagine that "The Oracle" is
> Primus. However, that really doesn't fit. Right now I'm leaning toward
> the idea of Primacron (that is, The Oracle) being THE ONE. That is, the
> being who created both Primus and Unicron. It would explain his name,
> his powers, and it would also help explain why The Matrix of Leadership
> can kill Unicron.
Isn't the One supposed to be like, the sentient core of the universe, or
some such thing? Why would such a being be hanging around inside the body of
a Primitive Transformer ape-thing?
> Consider: Unicron and Primus have fought before. Primus could not beat
> Unicron. That's the whole reason why Primus pulled the stunt of
> trapping Unicron and himself in planetoids. So if Primus can't beat
> Unicron, why is it that a mere fragment of his life-force (what we've
> been told the Matrix is) could destroy the Chaos Bringer? However, if
> the Matrix were a fragment/element of The One -- the creator of Primus
> in the first place -- it would make a lot more sense that it would be
> deadly to Unicron.
Well, the Matrix isn't just a fragment of the life-force of Primus. It also
contains the "Wisdom of the Ages" and, apparently, the sparks of previous
Autobot leaders. These additions may have made it a more powerful weapons
against Unicron than Primus could muster on his own.
Further, the Matrix did not actually _destroy_ Unicron. It done blowed up
his body real good, but Unicron's essence persisted.
> These kinds of thoughts also make me think that the planet where the
> Primitives meet "The Oracle" may be Protos. (The moon of Methuselah
> mentioned in Omega Point as the home of the Covenant of Primus, the
> first Transformers.)
>
>>From Omega Point part 1: Covenant
> "Locked in a synchronous orbit with the impossibly vast and infinitely
> ancient world they called Methuselah, Protos was cast forever in its
> massive shadow, afforded only the most tantalizing of glimpses of the
> galaxy's solar centerpiece."
>
> Interesting to note that the center of the galaxy is mentioned in
> Protos' description!
That is an interesting, the thought of a possible connection between "This
Dead World" and Protos. Had not occured to me before.
> Of course, if "The Oracle" -- the original, true Primacron -- is in
> fact The One, then some of the acts attributed to Primus (particularly
> the creation of the 12 Covenant of Primus TFs) may actually have been
> performed by The One. (Which I'm OK with.)
Well, I don't think I'd be okay with that, as we're told quite clearly that
Primus created the Covenant. So you'd call that information what, a lie? A
mistake?
Gustavo Wombat
Kil - Michael McCarthy wrote:
> news:1157306292.7...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> > I'm still ruminating on this mysterious episode.
If by "mysterious" you mean "badly plotted and completely inconsistent
with what came before and after, presenting an ultimately unsatisfying
origin to Unicron while still failing to explain anything" then I'm
with you so far...
> > In some ways, the episode invites one to imagine that "The Oracle" is
> > Primus. However, that really doesn't fit. Right now I'm leaning toward
> > the idea of Primacron (that is, The Oracle) being THE ONE. That is, the
> > being who created both Primus and Unicron. It would explain his name,
> > his powers, and it would also help explain why The Matrix of Leadership
> > can kill Unicron.
Perhaps he just has delusions of granduer, hence the name. An early
Transformer scientist who has gone astray. His escape pod looking like
the Matrix would just be --um-- really bad taste? He studies his own
spark to understand the rest of his race (gaining the ability to
control some, in the process), and built Unicron's body after finding
something that looked like a spark in a giant asteroid.
> > Consider: Unicron and Primus have fought before. Primus could not beat
> > Unicron. That's the whole reason why Primus pulled the stunt of
> > trapping Unicron and himself in planetoids. So if Primus can't beat
> > Unicron, why is it that a mere fragment of his life-force (what we've
> > been told the Matrix is) could destroy the Chaos Bringer? However, if
> > the Matrix were a fragment/element of The One -- the creator of Primus
> > in the first place -- it would make a lot more sense that it would be
> > deadly to Unicron.
I thought the Matrix was more of a gateway into the dimension that
holds the remains of Primus rather than a chunk of Primus. And
"destroy" could mean many, many things, particularly for a
semi-mystical artifact. Perhaps Unicron would be "destroyed" by merging
with Primus, and becoming a force for balance rather than a force for
destruction.
> Well, the Matrix isn't just a fragment of the life-force of Primus. It also
> contains the "Wisdom of the Ages" and, apparently, the sparks of previous
> Autobot leaders. These additions may have made it a more powerful weapons
> against Unicron than Primus could muster on his own.
Yeah, what he said.
> Further, the Matrix did not actually _destroy_ Unicron. It done blowed up
> his body real good, but Unicron's essence persisted.
Rodimus just botched it. He couldn't do anything right.
Step 1: Destroy body.
Step 2: Suck in essense of Unicron.
Had he just read the directions...
--Gustavo