(SPOILERS) Other Victories
Black Zarak
I noticed when watching this episode that on one of Tarantulas' computer
monitors, was the image of the Decepticon space cruiser. This could be
seen in two different scenes during the show. Makes you wonder just what
Tarantulas plan is....or should I say, what it was since he's dead.
--
Black Zarak <Za...@csolve.net>
aka Dave Porretta
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/9249
"Struggle as much as you like, I enjoy it!" >=)
-- Rampage in "Master Blaster"
Dalmatian
>
> Spoiler space.......
Oooo, spoilers.
This could be
> seen in two different scenes during the show. Makes you wonder just what
> Tarantulas plan is....or should I say, what it was since he's dead.
....and I don't think he's playing around this time. :)
Ooooh, those wacky aliens and their habit to make bodies explode.
--
----
/ .. \
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Tykus the Gladiator
Black Zarak wrote:
> Spoiler space.......
>
>
> I noticed when watching this episode that on one of Tarantulas' computer
> monitors, was the image of the Decepticon space cruiser. This could be
> seen in two different scenes during the show. Makes you wonder just what
> Tarantulas plan is....or should I say, what it was since he's dead.
>
I'll hazard a guess, even though I haven't seen it. With all this focus on
the Ark, have we all forgotten about the Decepticon space cruiser that lay
in the ocean somewhere.
--
Tykus the Gladiator
Overlord of the Transmetal II Fruit Fly Armada
Blue-Jackal's Bodyguard
On the run from the Borg
TheLastGL
(heart fo Cybertron)
Wonko the Sane
> its not in the ocean, its in the jungle somewhere
> (heart fo Cybertron)
Ah, but "Heart of Cybertron" took place millions of years later.
Who is to say that originally the ship did not crash into the ocean?
Benson Yee
bg...@is2.nyu.edu
Tykus the Gladiator
> its not in the ocean, its in the jungle somewhere
> (heart fo Cybertron)
Bull! MTMTE shows the ship crashing into the ocean, IIRC.
Black Zarak
> Bull! MTMTE shows the ship crashing into the ocean, IIRC.
Okay class, lets brush up on our G1 knowledge shall we? In MTMTE pt 1,
we see the ark and the Decepticon cruiser sprial out of control towards
earth, but in different directions. The Ark crashes into the volcano,
and the cruiser ends up somewhere else -- it's unknown at the time.
In MTMTE pt 3, the Decepticons manage to build a new space cruiser
to get back to Cybertron. Unfortunately, Mirage hitched a ride, blew up
the controls, and jumped out. The cruiser ended up crashing into the
ocean, and remained the Decepticon base for all of season 1 and 2.
Now, in the episode "Microbots", some archaeologists uncover a huge
metallic space craft in the Amazon jungle. The Decepticons find out, and
Megatron states that it is their old cruiser that crashed on Earth when
they were attacking the Ark.
It also contains the "Heart of Cybertron", a very powerful crystal that
Megatron put inside him (for this episode only) to make him really
powerful.
Therefore, if Nemesis deals with the Decepticon cruiser, it will be
the one in the jungle. Does that clear things up?
ViceGripX
>TheLastGL wrote:
>
>> its not in the ocean, its in the jungle somewhere
>> (heart fo Cybertron)
>
With a lot of time on my hands now :) I watched MTMTE last night and we
never truly see the fate of the original Decepticon ship. The Ark is shown
plummeting toward Earth with the Decepticon ship hurled through space. The
second Decepticon ship, created in MTMTE by the Decepticons to return to
Cybertron, crashed into the ocean.
I believe the Decepticon ship that held the Heart of Cybertron was another
vessel as was the ship that held the Insecticons, though there is no hard
evidence either way.
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Wonko the Sane
[Good info snipped]:
> Therefore, if Nemesis deals with the Decepticon cruiser, it will be
> the one in the jungle. Does that clear things up?
I just wanted to point out a couple of things:
1. This adventure is taking place millions of years ago, the ship could
have shifted location over those many years. Meaning, it could have
originally crashed in the ocean, we were never told. We know it *wound
up* in the jungle however.
2. The writers were very much aware of both "MTMTE" and "Heart of
Cybertron" when they wrote "Nemesis"
Benson Yee
bg...@is2.nyu.edu
Prime Saber
> I'll hazard a guess, even though I haven't seen it. With all this focus on
> the Ark, have we all forgotten about the Decepticon space cruiser that lay
> in the ocean somewhere.
At this time on Earth in BW the cruiser wouldn't have existed yet.
However, the earlier one would supposedly have crashed in South America,
so maybe the scenes of two ships over Earth silhouetted against the sun
in BW's 3rd season opening sequence could be in "Nemesis". ^_^
Tony Li, the Prime Saber
Index page to the Japanese and Beast Wars Transformers, including
pictures, videos, and my own models of Galvatron and God Ginrai --
http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/manwood/484/TF/TF.html
Black Zarak
Wonko the Sane wrote:
> I just wanted to point out a couple of things:
>
> 1. This adventure is taking place millions of years ago, the ship could
> have shifted location over those many years. Meaning, it could have
> originally crashed in the ocean, we were never told. We know it *wound
> up* in the jungle however.
I suppose it *could* have, but I doubt it. Seeing as how the Maximals want to
keep the past unchanged, I bet they would go out of their way to ensure that
the cruiser, if removed, is returned to it's original location.
If they show the cruiser in a future episode, and it is in the ocean, it's
likely attributed to the writer's error.
Wonko the Sane
> Minor spoilers.....
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> Wonko the Sane wrote:
>
> > I just wanted to point out a couple of things:
> >
> > 1. This adventure is taking place millions of years ago, the ship could
> > have shifted location over those many years. Meaning, it could have
> > originally crashed in the ocean, we were never told. We know it *wound
> > up* in the jungle however.
>
> I suppose it *could* have, but I doubt it. Seeing as how the Maximals want to
> keep the past unchanged, I bet they would go out of their way to ensure that
> the cruiser, if removed, is returned to it's original location.
> If they show the cruiser in a future episode, and it is in the ocean, it's
> likely attributed to the writer's error.
See, now you're getting into time travel theory which is a
headache. Let's say that the Maximals do confront the ship and somehow
defeat it, causing it to crash again. What if it crashes into a land mass
which later becomes the jungle? It's going to be shown that to a degree,
the adventures of the Beast Wars are an established *part* of Transformers
history, not an abberation.
The writers did their best not to make errors and went back to old
eps as reference. They've kept us happy for two and a half seasons, I
don't think this will let us down.
Benson Yee
bg...@is2.nyu.edu
Wonko the Sane
> Wonko the Sane wrote:
>
> > Black Zarak (Za...@csolve.net) wrote:
> > > Minor spoilers.....
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> contraption that holds Prime's spark, etc. But like I said, just minor ones.
Well, blame the animators for that one. The writers never
intended for the Matrix to be in there. The animator watched
"Transformers the movie" for reference and thought that the Matrix
container held Prime's spark, so voila. :)
Benson Yee
bg...@is2.nyu.edu
Black Zarak
> Black Zarak (Za...@csolve.net) wrote:
> > Minor spoilers.....
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> > Wonko the Sane wrote:
> >
> > > I just wanted to point out a couple of things:
> > >
> > > 1. This adventure is taking place millions of years ago, the ship could
> > > have shifted location over those many years. Meaning, it could have
> > > originally crashed in the ocean, we were never told. We know it *wound
> > > up* in the jungle however.
> >
> > I suppose it *could* have, but I doubt it. Seeing as how the Maximals want to
> > keep the past unchanged, I bet they would go out of their way to ensure that
> > the cruiser, if removed, is returned to it's original location.
> > If they show the cruiser in a future episode, and it is in the ocean, it's
> > likely attributed to the writer's error.
>
> See, now you're getting into time travel theory which is a
> headache. Let's say that the Maximals do confront the ship and somehow
> defeat it, causing it to crash again. What if it crashes into a land mass
> which later becomes the jungle? It's going to be shown that to a degree,
> the adventures of the Beast Wars are an established *part* of Transformers
> history, not an abberation.
Okay, I see what your saying. It makes sense. The writers opened up a whole can of
worms with the time travel stuff. Anything is possible it seems.
> The writers did their best not to make errors and went back to old
> eps as reference. They've kept us happy for two and a half seasons, I
> don't think this will let us down.
Well, they did make a couple mistakes although minor. Like a-matrix-like
contraption that holds Prime's spark, etc. But like I said, just minor ones.
--
HackGar1
Y
A
H
O
O
!
!
Ben just wanted to point out a couple of things:
>1. This adventure is taking place millions of years ago, the ship could
>have shifted location over those many years. Meaning, it could have
>originally crashed in the ocean, we were never told. We know it *wound
>up* in the jungle however.
>
>2. The writers were very much aware of both "MTMTE" and "Heart of
>Cybertron" when they wrote "Nemesis"
Well, not having seen the episode yet, it's obviously clear that Nemesis deals
with the Decepticon ship. And for Ben to take a stand and say that a
four-million year old ship can shift from the ocean to the jungle, I'm guessing
that the writers mighta messed up, and we have to explain the inconsistency :)
No offense to Ben, of course. But, in Microbots, the female archeologist said
that the ship was older than the strata of the hill. So presumably, the Decep
ship landed and all of that dirt was piled on top of it. It's unlikely that
the ship was moved from the bottom of the ocean by moving landmass, becuase the
Earth was pretty much the way it looks today, although not being an
archeologist, I can be wrong. The other explanation I have which is the most
likely and renders the other one a complete waste of type is perhaps the Preds
go and move the damn thing themselves, which is also unlikely given its size.
But maybe I should see the episode first? :)
Hack...@aol.com
Junkion reporter extraordinare
"Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale;
this tape will self-destruct in five seconds"
Fan Code: G+++ FR FW- M #97 D+ ADA
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PikaBolts
Pyre[Rock]
>
> Fan Code: G+++ FR FW- M #97 D+ ADA
> N++ W++ B+++ OQ++ MUSH-- BC+ CN++ OM <----Does anybody still use these??
I do. Mine's in my sig as well.
--
Pyre[Rock] - the...@rica.net http://home.rica.net/dcarson/therock/
TF Fancode: G++++ FR FW- M #150 D++ ADA N++ W++ B+++ OQP MUSH-- BC CN+++
Pyre[Rock]
>
> Black Zarak (Za...@csolve.net) wrote:
> > Wonko the Sane wrote:
> >
> > > Black Zarak (Za...@csolve.net) wrote:
> > > > Minor spoilers.....
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> > contraption that holds Prime's spark, etc. But like I said, just minor ones.
>
> intended for the Matrix to be in there. The animator watched
> "Transformers the movie" for reference and thought that the Matrix
> container held Prime's spark, so voila. :)
>
They actually thought that? They must be dumber than I originaly thought
then. I had thought that they just thought it looked cool so used it. I
would think they'd be smart enough to pay attention to the dialogue in
order to figure out what it was. Especially since this was the first we
ever saw of the matrix and it clearly explains what it is durign that
scene. *grumble*grumble* :-/
Prime Saber
> I believe the Decepticon ship that held the Heart of Cybertron was another
> vessel as was the ship that held the Insecticons, though there is no hard
> evidence either way.
Check out the "Microbots" episode if you have it. ;)
Zik Zak
bg...@is2.nyu.edu (Wonko the Sane) wrote:
> Black Zarak (Za...@csolve.net) wrote:
> > Minor spoilers.....
(And speculation for Nemesis)
> >
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> See, now you're getting into time travel theory which is a
> headache. Let's say that the Maximals do confront the ship and somehow
> defeat it, causing it to crash again. What if it crashes into a land mass
> which later becomes the jungle? It's going to be shown that to a degree,
> the adventures of the Beast Wars are an established *part* of Transformers
> history, not an abberation.
>
> The writers did their best not to make errors and went back to old
> eps as reference. They've kept us happy for two and a half seasons, I
> don't think this will let us down.
>
> Benson Yee
> bg...@is2.nyu.edu
What Ben's trying to say is, in Nemesis, Megatron hijacks the Decepticon space
cruiser from somewhere, and by the end of the episode it has crashed into a
landmass that will eventually be the jungle from Microbots. 'Kay?
(Note: Sheer speculation inferred from Ben's posts- not spoilers)
--
-Jim S.
http://www.giediprime.net/
Giedi Prime, the largest collection of Sci-Fi Fonts on the net.
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Finback
> TheLastGL (thel...@aol.com) wrote:
> > its not in the ocean, its in the jungle somewhere
> > (heart fo Cybertron)
>
> Ah, but "Heart of Cybertron" took place millions of years later.
> Who is to say that originally the ship did not crash into the ocean?
>
Well, most geoogical theory :) South America's been the way it has
been for a bit longer than the four million years necesary between crash
and recovery.
+-----------------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Marcus Good aka "Finback" | "That which is not dead |
| eg...@cc.curtin.edu.au | can eternal lie, |
| http://student.curtin.edu.au/~egood | And with strange aeons |
+-----------------------------------------+ even death may die." |
|"These things happen to other people, | -- HP Lovecraft, |
| they don't happen at all, in fact." | "Call of Cthulhu". |
|- They Might Be Giants, "She's An Angel".| |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
DShane2099
opening sequence of BW season 3 are the Axalon and the Predacon ship.
Wonko the Sane
> with the Decepticon ship. And for Ben to take a stand and say that a
> four-million year old ship can shift from the ocean to the jungle, I'm guessing
I never said it shifted. Re-read my original post and the
hypothetical I proposed.
> that the writers mighta messed up, and we have to explain the inconsistency :)
Nope, I actually warned them about the "two Decepticon ships on
Earth" bit while the script was being written. They were aware.
> No offense to Ben, of course. But, in Microbots, the female archeologist said
> that the ship was older than the strata of the hill. So presumably, the Decep
And nothing in BW should contradict that.
> ship landed and all of that dirt was piled on top of it. It's unlikely that
But what happened *before* the Decepticon ship landed/crashed and
the dirt piled up on it?
> the ship was moved from the bottom of the ocean by moving landmass, becuase the
> Earth was pretty much the way it looks today, although not being an
> archeologist, I can be wrong. The other explanation I have which is the most
> likely and renders the other one a complete waste of type is perhaps the Preds
> go and move the damn thing themselves, which is also unlikely given its size.
> But maybe I should see the episode first? :)
Somethin' like that. :)
Benson Yee
bg...@is2.nyu.edu
Wonko the Sane
> Wonko the Sane wrote:
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> > intended for the Matrix to be in there. The animator watched
> > "Transformers the movie" for reference and thought that the Matrix
> > container held Prime's spark, so voila. :)
> >
> They actually thought that? They must be dumber than I originaly thought
> then. I had thought that they just thought it looked cool so used it. I
> would think they'd be smart enough to pay attention to the dialogue in
> order to figure out what it was. Especially since this was the first we
> ever saw of the matrix and it clearly explains what it is durign that
> scene. *grumble*grumble* :-/
Let me rephrase more carefully, the animators did think the Matrix
container was a neato looking gadget and then presumed that it was used to
hold Optimus Prime's spark. Either way, the scene still looked great! :)
Benson Yee
bg...@is2.nyu.edu
cmq
space
>> I believe the Decepticon ship that held the Heart of Cybertron was
another
so can we deduct that Nemesis is the name of the Decepticon Ship? Or has
that already been established?
White Cat
> > Well, they did make a couple mistakes although minor. Like
> > a-matrix-like contraption that holds Prime's spark, etc. But like I
> > said, just minor ones.
>
> Well, blame the animators for that one. The writers never
> intended for the Matrix to be in there. The animator watched
> "Transformers the movie" for reference and thought that the Matrix
> container held Prime's spark, so voila. :)
I've never really understood this argument. If Prime didn't have the
Matrix at the time of "Optimal Situation" (as I'm told Larry DiTillio
has said), then why did Rhinox say that it was? Don't tell me that the
Mainframe people made a voice acting as well as an animation error...
- White Cat (becoming more and more set in his belief that "Optimal
Situation" was the worst episode of the year)
Protoform X
intended and what the animators may have messed up on, if you watch
"Optimal Situation" and go by what the episode says and shows, then that
clearly IS the Matrix they show and not just a fancy Spark holder. I
know that it wasn't susposed to be like that, however it makes perfect
sence for that to be the Matrix. I would have argued that point till I
was blue in the face...... untill they showed "Master Bleaster" and what
happened there just blowed my whole reasoning out of the water so I
don't know what to think.....
-->Protoform X<--
-The Heart-Break Bot-
Wonko the Sane
> I've never really understood this argument. If Prime didn't have the
> Matrix at the time of "Optimal Situation" (as I'm told Larry DiTillio
> has said), then why did Rhinox say that it was? Don't tell me that the
> Mainframe people made a voice acting as well as an animation error...
Rhinox said that Optimus Prime's spark had the Matrix "with it".
He never said that dull grey object in Prime's chest *was* the Matrix.
Bob Forward and I went back and forth hashing that line for about a day
until we settled on the final one. In the writer's minds, what we saw was
in fact NOT the Matrix of Leadership, but indeed, just a container for
Prime's spark.
Benson Yee
bg...@is2.nyu.edu
Wonko the Sane
Well, if we are going to nitpick, let me really nitpick. The
container in Prime's chest was certainly SHAPED like the Matrix, but it
clearly wasn't the same color as the Matrix *and* it had no blue crystal
within it. And once Optimus Prime's "spark" joined Optimal Optimus, the
case was empty. If this was the Matrix, the blue crystal would have
remained intact as it did in "Transformers: the Movie" when it changed
Hot Rod to Rodimus Prime. Also, when the container fell to the floor and
broke in half, it broke in a different way than we know the Matrix
actually opens.
My personal "retcon" theory (and this is NOT what Bob Forward and
Larry DiTillio intended) is that this container was built by Alpha Trion
as a "place holder" until Optimus Prime would be granted the Matrix later
on. Same size, dimensions, hsape etc. but not the real thing.
Benson Yee
bg...@is2.nyu.edu
W.B. Dillon
> Rhinox said that Optimus Prime's spark had the Matrix "with it".
> He never said that dull grey object in Prime's chest *was* the Matrix.
> Bob Forward and I went back and forth hashing that line for about a day
> until we settled on the final one.
--
But what does that mean "it had the Matrix with it"? If Prme didn't
have the physical Matrix, than how could it have "the Matrix with it"?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
W.B. Dillon ~ My e-mail address has been altered to
Bowling Green State U. ~ foil the dreaded and evil spam-bots. Remove
(555) 555 - 5555 ~ the "B" from "WBDillon" to reply.
wbdi...@bgnet.bgsu ~ - W.B. Dillon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wonko the Sane
> But what does that mean "it had the Matrix with it"? If Prme didn't
> have the physical Matrix, than how could it have "the Matrix with it"?
Think a bit more of the etherial sense. My family believes in
Catholism and they often believe that god is "with them". The context
the sentence implied was that Optimus Prime's spark was dying and
beginning to merge with the Matrix, therefore it had the Matrix "with
it", which to the Maximals would be a fairly spiritual context.
Benson Yee
bg...@is2.nyu.edu
HackGar1
Heh. Thanks for clearing that up. I read your original post and it hadn't
occured to me that something woulda happened before the ship crashed. But,
that's good that they consulted you for things of the sort. Again, thanks for
making that clearer, and not totally railing on me for posting before seeing
the ep :)
Hack...@aol.com
Junkion reporter extraordinare
"Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale;
this tape will self-destruct in five seconds"
Pyre[Rock]
> > Wonko the Sane wrote:
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> > then. I had thought that they just thought it looked cool so used it. I
> > would think they'd be smart enough to pay attention to the dialogue in
> > order to figure out what it was. Especially since this was the first we
> > ever saw of the matrix and it clearly explains what it is durign that
> > scene. *grumble*grumble* :-/
>
> Let me rephrase more carefully, the animators did think the Matrix
> container was a neato looking gadget and then presumed that it was used to
> hold Optimus Prime's spark. Either way, the scene still looked great! :)
>
Well, yes it did, but IMO it would have looked BETTER had they done what they
listened to the writers in the first place. I still don't see how they could
come to the conclusion that the matrix holds Prime's spark unless they just
weren't paying attention. *shrug*
--
Pyre[Rock] - the...@rica.net http://home.rica.net/dcarson/therock/
TF Fancode: G++++ FR FW- M #150 D++ ADA N++ W++ B+++ OQP MUSH-- BC CN+++
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Pyre[Rock]
That's EXACTLY what I've been saying when trying to explain that line.
PikaBolts
>
>> That would be....awesome
>Sorry, inserting spoiler sapce..
>want to know....
I didn't consider that a spoiler, sorry...
Prime Saber
Wonko the Sane (bg...@is2.nyu.edu) wrote:
> Let me rephrase more carefully, the animators did think the Matrix
> container was a neato looking gadget and then presumed that it was used to
> hold Optimus Prime's spark. Either way, the scene still looked great! :)
That it is, no doubt about it. ^_^
Hmm, I really don't see why the animators and writers couldn't have been
just a bit lazier. They could just have Prime's chest open up and reveal
a spark there, instead of going to all the trouble to include a holder
(whether it is the G1 Matrix or not). ^_^; They did that for G1 Megatron
when they revealed his spark anyway. The holder didn't seem to be really
essential to "Optimal Situation".
Marc Graham
>
> TheLastGL wrote:
>
> > its not in the ocean, its in the jungle somewhere
> > (heart fo Cybertron)
>
Well, in the comics it was left in orbit of earth under a cloak (By
Shockwave), but was destroyed by Galvatron in Target: 2006 to test his
anti-unicron weapon (he also had an Uncle-Unicron weapon, but thats a
story for another time.) Not that this helps clear any of this argument
up at all, I just thought I would pop into this thread and wave the flag
for the comics...
Marc. (Who thinks Target:2006 was a modern masterpiece....)
Prime Saber
Marc Graham (kry...@clara.net) wrote:
> Well, in the comics it was left in orbit of earth under a cloak (By
> Shockwave), but was destroyed by Galvatron in Target: 2006 to test his
> anti-unicron weapon (he also had an Uncle-Unicron weapon, but thats a
> story for another time.) Not that this helps clear any of this argument
> up at all, I just thought I would pop into this thread and wave the flag
> for the comics...
Hmm, from what Benson Yee revealed about the original Decepticon cruiser's
fate in the rest of BW, that would mean that part of the comics isn't part
of the BW continuity, along with the black-helmet G1 Megatron. ^_^;
(The G1 Megatron seen in "Master Blaster" has a grey/white helmet, BTW).
Liam Kavanagh
news:3718DC97...@hotmail.com...
> Possible spoilers for "Nemesis" rather than "Other Victories" below!
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> Marc Graham (kry...@clara.net) wrote:
>
> > Well, in the comics it was left in orbit of earth under a cloak (By
> > Shockwave), but was destroyed by Galvatron in Target: 2006 to test his
> > anti-unicron weapon (he also had an Uncle-Unicron weapon, but thats a
> > story for another time.) Not that this helps clear any of this argument
> > up at all, I just thought I would pop into this thread and wave the flag
> > for the comics...
>
> Hmm, from what Benson Yee revealed about the original Decepticon cruiser's
> fate in the rest of BW, that would mean that part of the comics isn't part
> of the BW continuity, along with the black-helmet G1 Megatron. ^_^;
> (The G1 Megatron seen in "Master Blaster" has a grey/white helmet, BTW).
>
The UK comics at least.
And we all KNOW that those are the true stories...