So every new mold TF helicopter will one day get repainted as springer,same deal goes for contruction vechicles repainted as green constructicons
Victoryleo
springer,same deal goes for contruction vechicles repainted as green
constructicons.
Gustavo Wombat
Armada Scavenger will never be repainted as a constructicon.
William Rendfeld
Ditto for Energon Bulkhead.
ShadowWing
"William Rendfeld" wrote
>Gustavo Wombat wrote:
> > Victoryleo wrote:
>
> > > So every new mold TF helicopter will one day get repainted as
> > >springer,same deal goes for contruction vechicles repainted as green
> > >constructicons.
> >
> >Armada Scavenger will never be repainted as a constructicon.
>
>Ditto for Energon Bulkhead.
Bulkhead was already painted as Springer (or "Sprang") in Japan.
Zobovor
> Armada Scavenger will never be repainted as a constructicon.
Thank goodness for that. He'd look hideous in Constructicon colors.
Zob...
Grebo
neither Takara-Tomy nor Hasvro have the rights to that toy.
However, I do share VictoryLeo's frustration. It's annoying that
almost every new helicopter TF will be repainted as Springer. It's
especially annoying to me because I hate it when TFs have their
fundamental Transformation changed. Springer is a Triple-Changer!
Making him only a chopper or only an armored car is LAME.
Similarly, I dislike when combiner-team members are remade as non-
combiners. Classics Fireflight and Onslaught look like really cool new
toys (especially Onslaught), but he's no longer a combiner. That
sucks!
Greboverly Touchy
William Rendfeld
wrote:
I doubt minor variation upon a paint job in another country counts.
Zobovor
> Similarly, I dislike when combiner-team members are remade as non-
> combiners. Classics Fireflight and Onslaught look like really cool new
> toys (especially Onslaught), but he's no longer a combiner. That
> sucks!
Fireflight? You mean Silverbolt, right?
That said, one supposes that Classics Onslaught *could* theoretically
represent Onslaught's original body, before he was imprisoned on
Cybertron for crimes against the Decepticons. Blast Off did imply
that the Combaticon bodies that Starscream built were not identical to
their original forms. Starscream evidently gave the Combaticons the
ability to combine, too, so a theoretical pre-Combaticon version of
Onslaught would have a different alternate mode and lack the ability
to form Bruticus.
Zob
Onslaught Six
> That said, one supposes that Classics Onslaught *could* theoretically
> represent Onslaught's original body, before he was imprisoned on
> Cybertron for crimes against the Decepticons. Blast Off did imply
> that the Combaticon bodies that Starscream built were not identical to
> their original forms. Starscream evidently gave the Combaticons the
> ability to combine, too, so a theoretical pre-Combaticon version of
> Onslaught would have a different alternate mode and lack the ability
> to form Bruticus.
If by "built," you mean "magically transformed," then okay.
Blastoff was a helicopter!
I've always ran with the theory that the reason the Combaticons were
locked away in the first place was, of course, Bruticus. This guy took
down Devastator in his initial appearance--clearly he's pretty tough,
and a major threat to Cybertron in general.
Zobovor
>> Blast Off did imply that the Combaticon bodies that Starscream built were not
>> identical to their original forms.
>
> If by "built," you mean "magically transformed," then okay. Blastoff was a
>helicopter!
I thought he was a bomber plane or something? In any event, I'm at a
loss for an explanation here. I'd like to think there's a really
*good* reason why Starscream would take the time to build standard-
issue World War II vehicle shells over top of the Combaticon vehicle
forms, only for them to fall off the first time they switched to robot
mode... and I really can't come up with one. /:)
> I've always ran with the theory that the reason the Combaticons were
> locked away in the first place was, of course, Bruticus. This guy took
> down Devastator in his initial appearance--clearly he's pretty tough,
> and a major threat to Cybertron in general.
That's certainly one valid argument. Indeed, his second appearance is
all about "The Revenge of Bruticus," not "The Revenge of the
Combaticons," and Bruticus himself did furthermore express a desire
for vengeance against Cybertron, suggesting that he'd had some prior
experiences there.
I would counter that the theoretical prior existence of Bruticus would
make Devastator less unique, retroactively, and would make some of the
Autobot reactions to Devastator seem strange in retrospect if they'd
already been aware of combiner technology on Cybertron for millions of
years. I would posit, too, that the first appearance of Bruticus
seemed to be a considerable shock to Megatron, suggesting that the
combined form didn't exist up to that point.
My take on things is that the Combaticons were political dissidents
that Megatron ordered locked up because he knew they weren't loyal
enough to follow him, at least during the early stages of his rule
over the Decepticons, but that they were sufficiently useful that he
didn't want to just destroy them completely. (Makes you wonder who
all those *other* Decepticons in the detention center were... you
know, the ones Starscream murdered after he sprang the Combaticons.)
Zob
Grebo
The unstoppable Onslaught Six <Onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If by "built," you mean "magically transformed," then okay. Blastoff was a
> >helicopter!
I've wondered about this myself. As far as I know, the creation of the
Combaticons is the only example we've seen (pre-2007 Movie anyway) of
Transformer lives (Sparks, Laser Cores, Personality Chips, whatever)
being implanted into Earthly machines and turning said machines into
Transformer bodies.
I came to the conclusion that there was something special about
Starscream, that he was able to do this. Probably a connection to his
"mutant indestructible spark". (Hey! Perhaps his Null-Ray sucks "life"
from its victims, temporarily nullifying their energy/life and adding
said energy/life to Starscream's own?)
And when I started thinking about Machine Wars (this is random, I
know), and why in the world any TF story would be called "Machine
Wars"... I mean, they're ALL machines, right? ...I came to the
conclusion that perhaps these new bodies the MW characters have
actually ARE machines. That is, instead of Optimus and Megs and Hoist
and company having been reformatted into new bodies, perhaps in the MW
story their "life essences" (Sparks, Laser Cores, Personality Chips,
whatever) had been transplanted into Earth machines and had magically
turned them into new bodies. I then imagined that perhaps there was a
mysterious MACHINE out there which could do this -- perhaps one which
Starscream had made, or perhaps it was an alien mcguffin which had
"copied" (or even stolen) this special ability of Starscream's -- and
that the "Machine Wars" was a series of battles waged over this
Machine by TFs who were, themselves, force-evolved machines.
Omigod was that ever a tangent.
Movin' on! The fabbalus Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> I would counter that the theoretical prior existence of Bruticus would
> make Devastator less unique, retroactively, and would make some of the
> Autobot reactions to Devastator seem strange in retrospect if they'd
> already been aware of combiner technology on Cybertron for millions of
> years. I would posit, too, that the first appearance of Bruticus
> seemed to be a considerable shock to Megatron, suggesting that the
> combined form didn't exist up to that point.
I know, right? This is one of the ideas Dreamwave came up with which I
really didn't like -- that not only Devastator, but the Scramble City
combiners had existed on Cybertron back during the Great War. No way,
dude. That sucks. I generally liked Dreamwave's ideas (such as the
Great Shutdown, the Sunstorm story, and on and on), but this large
story element from War Within: The Dark Ages didn't sit well with me
at all.
Truth be told, I'm eternally frustrated by how much the US cartoon and
comics totally missed the boat with the whole Scramble City idea as a
whole. Oh well.
Grrrreeeeeeboooooooo!
ShadowWing
"William Rendfeld" wrote
>> Bulkhead was already painted as Springer (or "Sprang") in Japan.
>
>I doubt minor variation upon a paint job in another country counts.
No, but Sprang was just the Superlink name for Bulkhead, so technically
that mold was used as Springer already. :)
SteveD
wrote:
>Arfage!
>
>The unstoppable Onslaught Six <Onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > If by "built," you mean "magically transformed," then okay. Blastoff was a
>> >helicopter!
>
>I've wondered about this myself. As far as I know, the creation of the
>Combaticons is the only example we've seen (pre-2007 Movie anyway) of
>Transformer lives (Sparks, Laser Cores, Personality Chips, whatever)
>being implanted into Earthly machines and turning said machines into
>Transformer bodies.
I've handwaved it for years by assuming that Starscream stole a bunch of
bodyshell-reformer gadgets at the same time he busted out the Combaticons,
and then installed them in the busted Earth vehicles. Kind of a portable,
all-in-one one-shot version of the repair tech used by the Ark or the bits
of the BW stasis pods which weren't involved with actual stasis or
surviving orbital re-entry.
-SteveD
Grebo
Onslaught Six
> I came to the conclusion that there was something special about
> Starscream, that he was able to do this. Probably a connection to his
> "mutant indestructible spark". (Hey! Perhaps his Null-Ray sucks "life"
> from its victims, temporarily nullifying their energy/life and adding
> said energy/life to Starscream's own?)
I once gave similar properties to BM Megatron, in his Megabolt body,
when he got transferred to the RID universe in a large-scale RP we
did. He'd destroy their bodies and then take their Sparks into his
own, which gave him more power and also allowed him to grow in size.
He also screamed mmmMMMMEEEEGGGAAAAABBBOOOOOOOLLLLLTTTTT!
> And when I started thinking about Machine Wars (this is random, I
> know), and why in the world any TF story would be called "Machine
> Wars"... I mean, they're ALL machines, right? ...I came to the
> conclusion that perhaps these new bodies the MW characters have
> actually ARE machines. That is, instead of Optimus and Megs and Hoist
> and company having been reformatted into new bodies, perhaps in the MW
> story their "life essences" (Sparks, Laser Cores, Personality Chips,
> whatever) had been transplanted into Earth machines and had magically
> turned them into new bodies. I then imagined that perhaps there was a
> mysterious MACHINE out there which could do this -- perhaps one which
> Starscream had made, or perhaps it was an alien mcguffin which had
> "copied" (or even stolen) this special ability of Starscream's -- and
> that the "Machine Wars" was a series of battles waged over this
> Machine by TFs who were, themselves, force-evolved machines.
Or maybe it was named Machine Wars because the current line at the
time was *Beast* Wars, and these guys were *Machines,* not *Beasts.*
Official MW fiction is scarce anyway so it's hard to tell if there
even 'was' a fictional "Machine Wars."
Grebo
The straightforward Onslaught Six <Onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Or maybe it was named Machine Wars because the current line at the
> time was *Beast* Wars, and these guys were *Machines,* not *Beasts.*
Yeah, uh, I know that. And obviously that's the reason why the TOY
LINE was called that. I'm not stupid, generally.
> Official MW fiction is scarce anyway so it's hard to tell if there
> even 'was' a fictional "Machine Wars."
Precisely. In looking at the toys -- and their line's name -- I found
myself trying to come up with a Transformers story which warranted a
name like "Machine Wars". Because, 'natch, all TF wars are machine
wars. Heck, even during Beast Wars, the beast-altmodes were an unusual
thing; it's not like the stories post-Universe (comic), in which
everyone is a beast-TF.
Anyway. Sigh.
Grebo
Gustavo Wombat
Beast modes cannot have been that unusual. Every stasis pod has a DNA
scanner, and by the time Beast Machines rolls around, they've added
DNA scanners to every transformer itself. Sure, the only reason crews
of the Axalon and Darkside bothered to get new modes was all the
unstable energon lying about, but the technology to do it was common
enough that it must have been regularly done, even if not commonly
done on Cybertron itself.
It's clearly not even just something put into the technology package
for the exploration missions -- the Darkside wasn't on an exploration
mission, and Nightscream had the built in one.
Anyway, I assume that at the beginning of any Machine Wars story,
Optimus Prime gave some corny speech about how the war will be fought
here, as machines, and be known as the Machine Wars! And then Prowl
would have pointed out that all the Transformers wars have been
machine wars...
Gustavo!
JimS
Seems like the best way, in continuity, to have a name like 'Machine
Wars' would be on the heels of something like Beast Wars. After
several years of beast vs beast, Mrimal and Megatron find themselves
on a strange new mechanical world. The Maximals & Predacons
reconfigure themselves to fit in with the mechanical natives and
Rattrap sarcastically dubs it the Machine Wars.
Or not.
JimS
Kil - Michael McCarthy
news:5e6f0dfa-9657-4294-a745-
>
> Beast modes cannot have been that unusual. Every stasis pod has a DNA
> scanner, and by the time Beast Machines rolls around, they've added
> DNA scanners to every transformer itself.
And yet despite that, apparently no one on the entire planet had an organic
beast mode, as Primal thinks the Beast Wars had to happen to bring organics
back to Cybertron.
-Kil
Gustavo Wombat
wrote:
> "Gustavo Wombat" <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
The lack on beast modes on Cybertron may have been a fashion, much
like wearing an onion on your belt. Or perhaps there is no real
advantage to having a beast mode on a big metal ball with no actual
beasts. We never see beast modes in any of the Cybertron flashbacks,
and yet the technology for them is ubiquitous -- it's a bit of a
mystery, but it's the picture of Cybertron that we have.
But, we don't really see that many Transformers during these
flashbacks at all -- certainly not enough to provide a decent sample
set of the population at large. We might infer that vehicle modes are
more significantly common than beast modes, but we have evidence that
no one on the planet does.
Returning explorers, for instance. They adopt a beast mode off world,
and if they are returning to Cybertron for a short trip, would be
unlikely to get a new mode for that trip -- identity is so tightly
bound to alt-modes in Transformers society (See "I'm a cheetah, no...
I'm CHEETOR!" for details), and the adopted beast personality affects
the Transformer's personality (see Inferno, Tigatron, or the BW
episode where the Maximals have to stay in beast mode).
It's even possible that beast modes were considered a badge of honor,
since it showed that a Transformer had been off world. Which would
give them the attributes of uncommon, and yet desirable enough that
everyone might want the built-in DNA scanner.
This is mostly speculation, but the alternative is that the entire
populace of Cybertron was upgraded with components that they would
never have any use for. (Which might be the Oracle's influence, to
ensure that Nightscream had one, but we're offered no evidence of
that)
Primal's belief that the Beast Wars were about bringing organics back
to Cybertron was, if taken at face value, demonstratively false: the
first scene of Beast Machines shows a flower growing on Cybertron, so
there were already organics on Cybertron. And the fossils, which
contained DNA despite being fossils. And the tree. Plus, there were
lots of other sources for organic material, like where ever Botanica's
expedition went.
Beast Wars may have been needed to force the entire reformatting of
Cybertron as Technorganic, which might fit Primal's statement if
interpreted somewhat looser, however.
Gustavo!
Onslaught Six
> Returning explorers, for instance. They adopt a beast mode off world,
> and if they are returning to Cybertron for a short trip, would be
> unlikely to get a new mode for that trip -- identity is so tightly
> bound to alt-modes in Transformers society (See "I'm a cheetah, no...
> I'm CHEETOR!" for details), and the adopted beast personality affects
> the Transformer's personality (see Inferno, Tigatron, or the BW
> episode where the Maximals have to stay in beast mode).
Protoform TFs can't be held as shining examples of how the process
actually works, though, because you've got all manner of tampering and
reprogramming and crap. I always got this impression--ever since The
Spark--that when you're rigging a stasis pod, you're not doing some
kind of standard, established procedure--you're basically holding it
together with duct tape and cheese whiz.
SteveD
<Gustav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The lack on beast modes on Cybertron may have been a fashion, much
>like wearing an onion on your belt.
My own guess would have been a combination of a general perception of
organic parts not being as durable/reliable/desirable and/or an
anti-organic quarantine provision on Cybertron for whatever reason (maybe
some political influence by conservative factions?).
I'm guessing it was a keep-Cybertron-inorganic political/cultural
statement, given the ubiquity of organic-mode scanners in spaceships and
the capability of personal scanners to handle organic modes as well as
mechanical. It's all right to go native while offplanet, doncha know, but
it's just not the done thing at home. Smacks of not wiping yer feet.
Certainly mechanical beast modes were not unknown, and may have even been
trendy now and then, so it's the material rather than the shape which
seems to have been the issue.
I dunno... maybe something nasty happened to the Headmasters/Powermasters,
or there was a massive push to eliminate the Technorganics and whatever
they used had long-lasting deleterious effects on *everything* organic on
the planet (except, presumably, the Core). Perhaps this was what upset the
balance and led to the Oracle needing to make arrangements for fresh
organic material to be brought in. Or maybe there was something about
prehistoric Earth DNA which could be used to build a counter-agent to the
remnants of the biodisaster.
I wonder if the Post-BM Cybertron appearance was a backlash- or
side-effect of something like this? It's even possible that the majority
of the surface greenery died off in a couple of months or years once
things returned to equilibrium and Primus decided it was no longer stylish
to look like a Chia Pet.
-SteveD
Grebo
The snazzy SteveD <use...@vo.id.au> wrote:
>
> I wonder if the Post-BM Cybertron appearance was a backlash- or
> side-effect of something like this? It's even possible that the majority
> of the surface greenery died off in a couple of months or years once
> things returned to equilibrium and Primus decided it was no longer stylish
> to look like a Chia Pet.
Oh, the story potential of post-BM Cybetron... sigh. I wish the TF
franchise had continued to follow its continuity (such as it was), but
clearly this is not the way ANY franchises really intend to go.
Continuity impedes a large consumer base. Sad, really.
I mean, the possibilities! The TF Universe and Wreckers comics only
scratched the surface. I could imagine a scenario, post-BM, in which
Cybertronian civilization fractures into not just good (Bot/Max) and
evil (Con/Pred) groups, but also into technorganic, purely mechanical,
and purely organic. That would be six factions -- nine, if you
included a neutral/unaligned group. And that doesn't even take into
account "Unicronians" like the Blendtrons, nor odd beings like the BM-
& RiD-era Dinobots. Oy vey.
And Transtech! That could have been so cool. Urk! And I had this crazy
idea that reformatted, technogranic Cybertron could then go through
fission (just as the G2 comic 'Cons did, under the term "budding"),
dividing like a cell into two planets -- a new, all-mechanical
Cybertron and the other an all-organic planet. A perfect setup for "TF
Cybertron" and its Jungle Planet (Animatros). Gah!!!
Oh well. I mean, I liked RiD pretty well, and such and such, but I
still hold the BW/BM continuity closest to my heart.
GrebOhGiveMeAHome
WhereTheBonecrushersRoam
WhereTheBreaksAndTheDinobotsPlayyyyyyyy...
Gustavo Wombat
> Arf woof!
>
> The snazzy SteveD <use...@vo.id.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I wonder if the Post-BM Cybertron appearance was a backlash- or
> > side-effect of something like this? It's even possible that the majority
> > of the surface greenery died off in a couple of months or years once
> > things returned to equilibrium and Primus decided it was no longer stylish
> > to look like a Chia Pet.
>
> Oh, the story potential of post-BM Cybetron... sigh. I wish the TF
> franchise had continued to follow its continuity (such as it was), but
> clearly this is not the way ANY franchises really intend to go.
> Continuity impedes a large consumer base. Sad, really.
On the other hand, had they continued, we would have had the horrid
TransTech designs, with their hybrid Gothy/Anime look.
> I mean, the possibilities! The TF Universe and Wreckers comics only
> scratched the surface. I could imagine a scenario, post-BM, in which
> Cybertronian civilization fractures into not just good (Bot/Max) and
> evil (Con/Pred) groups, but also into technorganic, purely mechanical,
> and purely organic. That would be six factions -- nine, if you
> included a neutral/unaligned group.
Well, they might not all be full factions. But post-BM would be a
vastly more interesting time than we've seen so far in Transformers
society -- everything changed overnight, and the old guard would be
wanting to get back in power, while conservative factions would be
pushing for a return to vehicular modes, and we've got Cheetor with
his glowing eyes suggesting Oracle contact...
Lots of opportunities for good stories during the reconstruction of
society.
I was disappointed with the glimpses we saw in the Universe comics.
> And Transtech! That could have been so cool. Urk!
Uck!
> And I had this crazy
> idea that reformatted, technogranic Cybertron could then go through
> fission (just as the G2 comic 'Cons did, under the term "budding"),
> dividing like a cell into two planets -- a new, all-mechanical
> Cybertron and the other an all-organic planet. A perfect setup for "TF
> Cybertron" and its Jungle Planet (Animatros).
Different social groups might have left Cybertron to colonize
elsewhere with like minded Transformers, and that would have split
their culture. There's nothing to say that G1/BW/BM didn't occur in
the prehistory of Armada/Energon/Cybertron... Sure, there's a new
Earth, but we've seen Earthlike planets in sci-fi countless times.
Gustavo!
SteveD
<Gustav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On the other hand, had they continued, we would have had the horrid
>TransTech designs, with their hybrid Gothy/Anime look.
*shrug* I always thought they might have been kind of interesting, at
least as a 6-12 month filler line. I could have seen myself picking up
Shockwave, maybe Cheetor.
-SteveD
Grebo
(A lot better than the Animated designs... [grumble] )
Though I'm not keen on what the collector's club comics have been
doing with Transtech. It's not terribly awesome. :-/ But then again,
I haven't tought much of MOST of the TF club's comics. Their main
writer, Forest Lee (?) is... well, let's just say I am not a fan.
Grebo!!!!
On Jul 25, 6:16 pm, SteveD <use...@vo.id.au> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:37:39 -0700 (PDT), Gustavo Wombat
>