MR&DR: Why the Movie SUCKS
Robert Powers
Manic Ramblings and Delerious Ranting, re: Why TF:TM SUCKS!
I have never liked Transformers: the Movie very much, but seeing it this
weekend at BotCon brought home to me just what a vast letdown it really
is. Be warned, by the time I am done you're going to think this is The
Critic posting... I fully intend to shred the Movie to itty-bitty pieces,
and I don't just mean because of trivial errors like Sunstreaker being in
two places at once.
Someone at BotCon commented that "it's cool because it had Transformers
in it." No, the *TV show* was cool because it had Transformers. A
*movie* is by its nature something greater, something special, and it
should reflect that and be held to a higher standard. For starters, a
*movie*, be it a spin-off from a show, a toy line promotion, or otherwise,
should be a stand-alone piece of work. It is presented in theaters where
it can reach a wider audience who might not see its subject matter on TV
or in comics. TFTM fails in this regard. It is never explained what the
hell Autobots and Decepticons *are*; instead we jump straight in, throwing
first-time Transformer viewers into a confusing succession of
rapidly-changing scenes with dozens of characters, many of whom die
shortly after being established, only to be replaced with new ones, and
still more new characters (Junkions, Quintessons, Wheelie, Sharkticons)
after that. Most of these characters are not developed or explained, nor
for the most part do they serve to push the plot along.
Even if you disagree and feel that the Movie is aimed soley at fans of
the show who already know what's going on, it pales beside another fact:
the basic plot sucks, pure and simple. There are two major plots set up
in the first five or ten minutes of the movie: Unicron's existance, and
the coming Autobot invasion of Decepticon-held Cybertron.
The first plot point is NEVER EXPLAINED. WHERE did he come from? WHY
does Unicron give a damn about Cybertron? WHY does he choose to attack,
instead of just going somewhere else? If he's such a menace, WHY have the
Autobots never heard of him? In light of the fact that they don't know
about him, if he simply by-passed Cybertron he could have continued on his
merry way for the rest of enternity. WHY is the Matrix the one thing that
he fears? HOW does it affect him? If he can create a whole ship, why
does he need Megatron to serve him? Unicron is essentially the king daddy
of all plot devices, a giant threat put in soley for the purpose of having
a giant threat, without any explanation or relevance to the characters.
Worse still, the giant threat is removed by a simplistic application of
yet another plot device, the Matrix. No application of wit, force,
sacrifice, or intelligence by the characters is involved; the character
who just *happened* to have the Matrix just *happens* to be fighting the
one character who can open the Matrix, and they just *happen* to be inside
Unicron at the time when Hot Rod just *happens* to grab it.
The second plot point is dropped completely and never returned to. The
Autobots reclaiming of Cybertron -- in essence, finally winning the war --
is a *major* event in the TF Universe and is a logical thing to make the
Movie about. There are other possibilities, but this is the most
blatantly obvious one, the one that would best fulfill Transfans hopes and
expectations. Properly set up, it could have been the focus of an
excellent "heroic struggle against oppression" story. But instead we get
a diversionary attack on Autobot city, which primarily serves as an
opportunity to get rid of old characters quickly. Later Unicron attacks
Cybertron and is destroyed, and all of a sudden a few Autobots are on
Cybertron... and the Movie ends. No mention that they've even captured
the planet, let alone HOW, considering there were only a dozen or so of
them. So what should be the biggest event in the cartoon's story is
completely ignored in favor of the artificial and contrived plot device of
Unicron.
Turning our expectations isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it leaves
the viewer wondering just why the hell we were set up to expect something
else in the first place. You didn't really need that first plot to begin
with. The set-up of the first two seasons would have been a fine scenario
to have Unicron arrive under; it would have required cooperation between
the two sides, strategy perhaps -- in short, an intelligent plot.
Furthermore, the second plot point of Unicron is itself never really
addressed; instead we get yet *another* diversion, as the Autobots
flounder helplessly from one place to another, leaving the viewer saying,
"Well, those were pretty pictures, but what does it have to *do* with
anything?" By the time we get to Hot Rod and Kup fighting Sharkticons,
that is my precise reaction. The only tangential relation that the
Junk/Quintessa sidetrips have is that they allow the Autobots to recruit a
few allies who prove to be rather useless in the end. These two sets of
characters would have been much more better off being relegated to the TV
series, if they had to be shown at all.
[And for the record, it is glaringly obvious that the writers of the Movie
never had *any* intention of the Quintessons being the TFs' creators.
They were just a bunch of funky aliens who hung around on their planet
playing mock trial; they were no more interested in Hot Rod and Kup than
they were any other prisoner. The Quints as the TFs creators is one of
the most abysmal retcons I've ever seen... given their role in the Movie,
it is simply and totally unbelievable. On top of that, the Quints should
be DEAD! The Sharkticons were right on their tail with the overwhelming
advantage of numbers. I cannot believe the characters we saw in the Movie
actually survived, let alone regained control of their former charges.
Nowhere was it implied that this race was more populous than a few
wierdos sitting in their little fortress.]
Also, a few points I've made before, but don't mind repeating: the
deaths in the movie were *extremely* poorly handled. The Autobots on the
shuttle and in the city more than anything, but several Decepticons also
went out without a word. If we've not seen these characters speak -- if
we know nothing about them -- who cares if they're dead? All it does is
infuriate the fans and confuse non-fans. The Movie did nothing to
establish these characters; it simply lifted them from the cartoon and
killed them. Consider, what if James Kirk had been killed in the first
two minutes of Star Trek: Generations? Say what you will about that film,
it did enough to make Kirk a real person to the viewer, so that when he
dies at the end, you actually care, even if you've never seen Star Trek
before in your whole life. TF:TM did nothing of the sort for any of the
characters except Optimus Prime, and maybe Starscream (who went out with a
fine sense of having gotten his come-uppance.)
At this point, you're thinking, "Fine! If it's so bad, let's see you do
it better." So, okay, here's some ideas I jotted down in the course of an
hour on the flight home. One hour. If I were a professional writer
getting paid to do this, with several *weeks* at least to work on it, I
hope I could do better than these...
* Keep the first five or ten minutes mostly the same, but with more
narrative explanation of what the hell is going on. Explain that the
Transformers are living robots, and they have had a civil war going on for
eons, and that their war has recently spilled over on to Earth. Maybe add
a series of still shots, in rough pencil or black & white, a la the first
episode of Robotech that explained the Global Civil War; a series of
flashbacks from the cartoon would do as well, or entirely new animation.
Set it up as a mythological tale, a la the movie Willow, rather than a big
toy commercial.
* Instead of attacking Autobot city, the 'cons could attack the moonbases,
which really are the more immediate threat. The bases call for help; soon
both sides are fighting and present at Cybertron when Unicron arrives/is
detected. Maybe Soundwave or Blaster recieves a distress call from a
planet Unicron is consuming; maybe he just pops up with no warning.
* With Big U on the way, Megs and Prime ally their forces. A fanfic I
read once mentioned the possibility of them all retreating to Cybertron to
defend the planet by some sort of phase or time shift; ie, the whole
planet is sent a few minutes into the future, or perhaps into another
dimension. Other possibilities include conventional large-scale defenses,
electrical counterattack, or large-scale shielding. Whatever the case,
you could have Unicron hovering over Cybertron the whole time with hostile
intentions if you wanted... sci fi can always provide handy tech
explanations to do whatever you want in a plot.
* Perhaps while initiating one or more of these attacks, the Decepticons
manage to conveniently eliminate some of the Autobots who are helping. I
picture Shockwave trapping Prowl inside a gun emplacement or generator
housing that's about to overload and explode...
* A team (maybe the Movie characters - HR, UM, Kup, Arcee and Springer)
could be sent to recruit help from off-planet, seek some artifact that can
be used against Unicron, or find someone with knowledge of some weakness.
The Quints could concievably play a useful roll here.
* A team could be sent to Vector Sigma, or somewhere else inside of
Cybertron, to get answers on how to deal with Unicron. This could also
provide a chance to give Unicron a background and motivation for
attacking.
* A team could be sent inside Unicron himself, to attempt sabotage of some
sort.
* Introduce Galvatron & co as seperate characters, perhaps, sent by
Unicron to disrupt these efforts (somewhat like what Furman did in the
comics.) Keep them as rouge elements in the third season, perhaps loosely
aligned with the Decepticons. Or have Galvatron's role filled by some
'con that Unicron manages to turn against Megatron somehow. Or have
Megatron reformed into Galvatron at the end of the movie, promising to
restore the Decepticons even as they retreat.
* Have as a basic plot, "The Autobots and the Decepticons team up to fight
off a menace. But the Decepticons betray the Autobots' trust during the
alliance. The 'cons end up losing the war by the end of the movie despite
their underhandedness, showing that honesty and integrity will triumph."
Maybe *this* could be when Prime arrives to save the day.
* Imagine a finale in which Prime and Megatron *both* have to sacrifice
themselves to get the Matrix inside of Unicron, or to do whatever else is
necessary to get rid of Big U.
These are only possibilities, a few of many. I thought of them in one
hour. I feel any of them would result in a superior product compared to
what we got. Better writers than I could come up with still better ideas.
Add to this often stiff animation, frequently stiff voice work, and the
many little animation and continuity glitches that everyone likes to point
out as the movie's worst flaws, and frankly it's no wonder that critics
frequently pan TF:TM.
And, one last thing: ditch that damn soundtrack!! I am not knocking
Vince Dicola here; I'm not fond of his music but I think he did at least a
respectable job on the film. But "Nothing's Gonna Stand in Our Way" is
just a BAD song. "Dare" comes off as just a gratuitous attempt to make
Hot Rod and/or Daniel seem cool. Stan Bush's and the other guys' music
cutting in all of a sudden is distracting, abruptly taking us from movie
to music video. Stuff like that blares at the viewer, making them cringe
in their seat, distracting from action and dialogue alike, and turning off
people like myself who despise 80s glam metal.
Gods. Remember analogies, from standardized testing? Here's one for
ya... Raksha:BW Megatron::Rob:TFTM.
--
Robert Powers of the Non-Smoking .sig
repo...@shell.faradic.net ______________________________________________
| It was something like what I felt when I learned how to smoke - when I |
| felt sick and the saliva gathered in my mouth and I swallowed it and |
|__pretended it was very pleasant.__--- Leo Tolstoy _____________________|
Superguy D
DUde, you seriously need to calm down, above all, forget all this Shakespearean
maasterpiece theatre plot crap you are yelling about, and remeber the one
bottom line here, THIS WAS A KIDS MOVIE!!!!! KIDS WATCH THE SHOW RELIGEOUSLY,
SO THEY LOVE IT, IT'S NOT MEANT FOR GROUCHY ADULTS LIKE YOU TO SIT AND PICK
APART.
Robert Powers
On 22 Jun 1998 20:40:35 GMT, Superguy D <supe...@aol.com> wrote:
>DUde, you seriously need to calm down, above all, forget all this
Nahhh. I'm not the one yelling. ;] And I like picking stuff like this
apart. It's fun. Seriously.
Shakespearean
>maasterpiece theatre plot crap you are yelling about,
I'm not the one who's yelling, you silly person! And plot generally
makes a better story, I've found, when you have 90 minutes to fill. I
have seen 90 minute films without plot and they really sucked.
and remeber the one
>bottom line here, THIS WAS A KIDS MOVIE!!!!!
But it could have been much more. Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost
Ark... those were movies that kids love, too, but they're also considered
great movies in their own right. Why couldn't something of similar
quality been attempted for TFs?
>SO THEY LOVE IT, IT'S NOT MEANT FOR GROUCHY ADULTS LIKE YOU TO SIT AND PICK
>APART.
My mountain bike wasn't meant to chase after people on thousand-dollar
racing bikes, either, but that's what I use it for. What's your point? :]
--
Robert Powers of the Ever-Changing .sig
repo...@shell.faradic.net __________________________________________
| I have certain beliefs and opinions and, like all of us, feel that |
| mine are correct. That others do not share my opinions is, well, |
|_life. --- Douglas Tricarico in rec.arts.movies.current_____________|
JHooksX
Rob Powers, you suck.
You beat me to the punch!!
I was all ready to talk about the abysmal film that is called "Transformers:
The Movie", and then I see your post. Damn.
Its sad, really. I was all pumped up to see a movie I haven't seen in easily
two years. I remembered many of the lines, but my love of the movie was simply
nostalgia.
Sitting there, watching the movie that is just a bunch of "kewl battle scenes"
mixed in with "kewl lines" and "jarring music", I practically fell asleep. I
didn't care about the characters, their plight, their "tragedy", or any of
their conflicts. I found much of the dialogue to be stiff and cliche'd, and
damn it, I understood Leonard Martin's review of the movie much clearer.
I was excited to see it on a larger screen when going to BotCon. After seeing
it, I wish I could have just remembered it via nostalgia. Damn toy commercial.
(X)
"Fuck Vector Sigma. And the Quintessons are a bunch of goofy aliens with
delusions of graduer." --Larry DiTillio, 6/19/98
"Kill em all. Let Hasbro sort them out." --Bob Forward (regarding season
finales), 6/20/98
Shatter-Tite
Two questions,..what is it you're smokin? and where do I get some?
comin from a guy who didn't even bother to read the original post
:P
later,
Shatter-Tite
http://members.home.net/shattertite/
"Who disturbs my plazma bath!!,..!" -Galvy
-Anyone got an extra Rodimus spoiler?
^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
aaro...@gte.net
Robert Powers wrote:
>
> Manic Ramblings and Delerious Ranting, re: Why TF:TM SUCKS!
>
> I have never liked Transformers: the Movie very much, but seeing it this
> weekend at BotCon brought home to me just what a vast letdown it really
> is. Be warned, by the time I am done you're going to think this is The
> Critic posting... I fully intend to shred the Movie to itty-bitty pieces,
> and I don't just mean because of trivial errors like Sunstreaker being in
> two places at once.
>
> Someone at BotCon commented that "it's cool because it had Transformers
> in it." No, the *TV show* was cool because it had Transformers. A
> *movie* is by its nature something greater, something special, and it
> should reflect that and be held to a higher standard. For starters, a
> *movie*, be it a spin-off from a show, a toy line promotion, or otherwise,
> should be a stand-alone piece of work.
Why should it? Star Trek movies aren't a stand alone piece of work, and
they are in movies. Some of them were very good, others not so good. And
as a matter of fact it was. It's animation and overall "young adult"
oriented theme set it apart from the TV series.
>It is presented in theaters where
> it can reach a wider audience who might not see its subject matter on TV
> or in comics.
TFTM fails in this regard.
Not true. Again, Star Trek is a good example. But, TF:TM did present
something that hadn't been seen before on the show: Death.
It is never explained what the
> hell Autobots and Decepticons *are*; instead we jump straight in, throwing
> first-time Transformer viewers into a confusing succession of
> rapidly-changing scenes with dozens of characters, many of whom die
> shortly after being established, only to be replaced with new ones, and
> still more new characters (Junkions, Quintessons, Wheelie, Sharkticons)
> after that.
So, Star Wars came out this way too. We were all just thrown into the
action.
>Most of these characters are not developed or explained, nor
> for the most part do they serve to push the plot along.
So, not all characters are meant to advance the plot, just dress it up a
little bit.
> Even if you disagree and feel that the Movie is aimed soley at fans of
> the show who already know what's going on, it pales beside another fact:
> the basic plot sucks, pure and simple.
Your opinion, which you are entitled to, of course, but a poorly based
opinion. You are actually the first person who I know of that said the
Movie "sucked".
There are two major plots set up
> in the first five or ten minutes of the movie: Unicron's existance, and
> the coming Autobot invasion of Decepticon-held Cybertron.
>
> The first plot point is NEVER EXPLAINED. WHERE did he come from? WHY
> does Unicron give a damn about Cybertron?
Because it is a planet he can devour. That is established right away.
WHY does he choose to attack,
> instead of just going somewhere else?
Because it is there, at that moment, and he wants to devour it. Why go
somewhere else when he's got what he needs in front of him.
If he's such a menace, WHY have the
> Autobots never heard of him?
Because they haven't. He is new to that area of space. Somehow the
Autobots know everything now.
In light of the fact that they don't know
> about him, if he simply by-passed Cybertron he could have continued on his
> merry way for the rest of enternity.
Yeah, he could have, but he decided not to. Somehow an evil entity's
every decision has to be analized? Since when does evrything have to be
explained? The X-files is a terrific TV show, and the movie was great
to, but you'd probably say the movie sucked because it didn't explain
the entire content of the previous seasons of X-files.
WHY is the Matrix the one thing that
> he fears?
Because "It is the One thing, The Only thing!" that can stand in his
way.
HOW does it affect him? If he can create a whole ship, why
> does he need Megatron to serve him?
He can't reach or conquer every soul in the galaxy, and he needs
Galvatron to destroy the matrix. The most he could do is eat the planet
on which the matrix carrier is on, but he can't be evrywhere at once.
Common sense would dictate that he needs someone to recruit.
Unicron is essentially the king daddy
> of all plot devices, a giant threat put in soley for the purpose of having
> a giant threat,
Again, the whole X-files thing. The X-files don't explain anything at
all. It takes a whole season to figure anything out. The Movie answered
one question only, and posed a dozen more.
> without any explanation or relevance to the characters.
The relevance is that he is a threat to theirs and Cybertron's
existence, by the facy that he can eat a planet.
> Worse still, the giant threat is removed by a simplistic application of
> yet another plot device, the Matrix. No application of wit, force,
> sacrifice, or intelligence by the characters is involved; the character
> who just *happened* to have the Matrix just *happens* to be fighting the
> one character who can open the Matrix, and they just *happen* to be inside
> Unicron at the time when Hot Rod just *happens* to grab it.
Optimus Prime explained this before he died, in the Movie.
>
> The second plot point is dropped completely and never returned to. The
> Autobots reclaiming of Cybertron -- in essence, finally winning the war --
> is a *major* event in the TF Universe and is a logical thing to make the
> Movie about. There are other possibilities, but this is the most
> blatantly obvious one, the one that would best fulfill Transfans hopes and
> expectations. Properly set up, it could have been the focus of an
> excellent "heroic struggle against oppression" story. But instead we get
> a diversionary attack on Autobot city, which primarily serves as an
> opportunity to get rid of old characters quickly. Later Unicron attacks
> Cybertron and is destroyed, and all of a sudden a few Autobots are on
> Cybertron... and the Movie ends. No mention that they've even captured
> the planet, let alone HOW, considering there were only a dozen or so of
> them. So what should be the biggest event in the cartoon's story is
> completely ignored in favor of the artificial and contrived plot device of
> Unicron.
The decepticons abandoned the planet because Unicron was attacking it.
Come on now, where did you get this stuff? Almost all your points have
already been shot down by me, just one person. How do you think the rest
of ATT will react? Come up with some better support. Somehow a cartoon
movie has to be a spielberg quality film? TF:TM isn't but it is still a
good movie, and it definately doesn't suck.
>
> Turning our expectations isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it leaves
> the viewer wondering just why the hell we were set up to expect something
> else in the first place.
I wasn't set up to think something else.
You didn't really need that first plot to begin
> with. The set-up of the first two seasons would have been a fine scenario
> to have Unicron arrive under; it would have required cooperation between
> the two sides, strategy perhaps -- in short, an intelligent plot.
It was one plot, with a subplot added. Somehow all plots have to be
resolved at movie's end?
> Furthermore, the second plot point of Unicron is itself never really
> addressed; instead we get yet *another* diversion, as the Autobots
> flounder helplessly from one place to another, leaving the viewer saying,
> "Well, those were pretty pictures, but what does it have to *do* with
> anything?" By the time we get to Hot Rod and Kup fighting Sharkticons,
> that is my precise reaction. The only tangential relation that the
> Junk/Quintessa sidetrips have is that they allow the Autobots to recruit a
> few allies who prove to be rather useless in the end. These two sets of
> characters would have been much more better off being relegated to the TV
> series, if they had to be shown at all.
What? Did you say something again? Can anybody else decifer what is
being said here? It's like writing words for the sake of writing words,
instead of writing words to illustrate a point.
>
> [And for the record, it is glaringly obvious that the writers of the Movie
> never had *any* intention of the Quintessons being the TFs' creators.
> They were just a bunch of funky aliens who hung around on their planet
> playing mock trial; they were no more interested in Hot Rod and Kup than
> they were any other prisoner.
How about the whole guilty or innocent thing? And, how's it obvious? It
becomes obvious when the new cartoons came out after the movie. They
were put in the movie to make way for new episodes, that much IS
obvious.
The Quints as the TFs creators is one of
> the most abysmal retcons I've ever seen... given their role in the Movie,
> it is simply and totally unbelievable.
Why?
On top of that, the Quints should
> be DEAD! The Sharkticons were right on their tail with the overwhelming
> advantage of numbers. I cannot believe the characters we saw in the Movie
> actually survived, let alone regained control of their former charges.
Well, they did. They had a big headstart on the sharkticons to the
ships. Somehow you can believe all the other improbable scenearios that
take place in other movies.
> Nowhere was it implied that this race was more populous than a few
> wierdos sitting in their little fortress.]
No shit. You don't say. Somehow there sould be many more creators
roaming around?
>
> Also, a few points I've made before, but don't mind repeating: the
> deaths in the movie were *extremely* poorly handled. The Autobots on the
> shuttle and in the city more than anything, but several Decepticons also
> went out without a word. If we've not seen these characters speak -- if
> we know nothing about them -- who cares if they're dead? All it does is
> infuriate the fans and confuse non-fans.
Why would it confuse nonfans? To them they are just casualties of war.
>The Movie did nothing to
> establish these characters; it simply lifted them from the cartoon and
> killed them.
So, somehow every supporting character must have a complete established
history in the first five minutes of the show?
Consider, what if James Kirk had been killed in the first
> two minutes of Star Trek: Generations? Say what you will about that film,
> it did enough to make Kirk a real person to the viewer, so that when he
> dies at the end, you actually care, even if you've never seen Star Trek
> before in your whole life. TF:TM did nothing of the sort for any of the
> characters except Optimus Prime, and maybe Starscream (who went out with a
> fine sense of having gotten his come-uppance.)
Exactly. The Movie established the important characters. How can you
compare an extra to Captain Kirk? Somehow ALL characters in the movie
should have meaningful deaths. What you are implying makes no sense. The
movie would be way too long for such plot additions. And Come-uppance?
Use a word here please.
>
> At this point, you're thinking, "Fine! If it's so bad, let's see you do
> it better." So, okay, here's some ideas I jotted down in the course of an
> hour on the flight home. One hour. If I were a professional writer
> getting paid to do this, with several *weeks* at least to work on it, I
> hope I could do better than these...
>
> * Keep the first five or ten minutes mostly the same, but with more
> narrative explanation of what the hell is going on. Explain that the
> Transformers are living robots, and they have had a civil war going on for
> eons, and that their war has recently spilled over on to Earth. Maybe add
> a series of still shots, in rough pencil or black & white, a la the first
> episode of Robotech that explained the Global Civil War; a series of
> flashbacks from the cartoon would do as well, or entirely new animation.
> Set it up as a mythological tale, a la the movie Willow, rather than a big
> toy commercial.
Why? It's not needed. Besides, the UK version did explain some stuff,
but I thought it was unnecessary.
>
> * Instead of attacking Autobot city, the 'cons could attack the moonbases,
> which really are the more immediate threat.
Megatron himself explained in the movie why they did this, when
starscream questioned him.
The bases call for help; soon
> both sides are fighting and present at Cybertron when Unicron arrives/is
> detected. Maybe Soundwave or Blaster recieves a distress call from a
> planet Unicron is consuming; maybe he just pops up with no warning.
Yeah, but Earth has always been an issue because of its vast resources,
so why battle on Cybertron, when the real power lies in posession of
earth. The decepticons always had control over most of cybertron anyway,
up to the movie, because of Shockwave's capable hands. The fact that
this wasn't established in the movie isn't important, because it didn't
need to be.
> * With Big U on the way, Megs and Prime ally their forces. A fanfic I
> read once mentioned the possibility of them all retreating to Cybertron to
> defend the planet by some sort of phase or time shift; ie, the whole
> planet is sent a few minutes into the future, or perhaps into another
> dimension. Other possibilities include conventional large-scale defenses,
> electrical counterattack, or large-scale shielding. Whatever the case,
> you could have Unicron hovering over Cybertron the whole time with hostile
> intentions if you wanted... sci fi can always provide handy tech
> explanations to do whatever you want in a plot.
I think the movie plot was better. Now you are just getting rediculous.
>
> * Perhaps while initiating one or more of these attacks, the Decepticons
> manage to conveniently eliminate some of the Autobots who are helping. I
> picture Shockwave trapping Prowl inside a gun emplacement or generator
> housing that's about to overload and explode...
Theonly good idea here, but entirely unnecessary. A death is a death,
whether or not cunning was used to achieve it.
>
> * A team (maybe the Movie characters - HR, UM, Kup, Arcee and Springer)
> could be sent to recruit help from off-planet, seek some artifact that can
> be used against Unicron, or find someone with knowledge of some weakness.
> The Quints could concievably play a useful roll here.
>
> * A team could be sent to Vector Sigma, or somewhere else inside of
> Cybertron, to get answers on how to deal with Unicron. This could also
> provide a chance to give Unicron a background and motivation for
> attacking.
That was already established. Why add all this. You'd need another movie
to fit all the plot time it would take up.
Well, the movie was shown in the eighties. So it makes sense to have
eighties music.
Gyumaoh
>How do you think the rest
>of ATT will react?
They'll probably dig it. Bashing G1 seems to be commonplace, accepted, and
fashionable.
>Come up with some better support. Somehow a cartoon
>movie has to be a spielberg quality film? TF:TM isn't but it is still a
>good movie, and it definately doesn't suck.
I agree. Personally, I can't stand to watch the movie anymore either, but not
because it sucks. I've seen the thing 100s of times. There isn't anything
else I can get out of it. I think the same is true for many others.
Robert Powers
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:15:44 -0700, aaro...@gte.net <aaro...@gte.net> wrote:
>Robert Powers wrote:
>> *movie*, be it a spin-off from a show, a toy line promotion, or otherwise,
>> should be a stand-alone piece of work.
>
>Why should it? Star Trek movies aren't a stand alone piece of work, and
The hell they aren't. Sure, they have references to and continuity
with the television series, but I had hardly seen any of that when I
watched the movies, and yet it was made perfectly clear what was going on.
Look at Star Trek II, Wrath of Kahn -- a very complicated back story was
neatly explained to us in a very non-intrusive manner.
>Not true. Again, Star Trek is a good example. But, TF:TM did present
>something that hadn't been seen before on the show: Death.
Yes, and that's a step forward; however, most of those deaths were
incidental to the plot. They were seemingly included only to announce
"We're not making these toys anymore, but you don't want them anyway
because they're DEAD!" Prowl, Brawn, Ratchet, Wheeljack, Ironhide,
Windcharger, Skywarp, Thundercracker -- these were all established
characters from the cartoon series. First-time TF viewers may not care
who they are and if they die, but fans of the show do care. The movie
owed it to those fans to make the deaths of these characters have some
degree of meaning and significance. If it couldn't do that, they should
have been dropped from the movie entirely.
Likewise, you might not care if Sulu or O'Hura or O'Brien from the
various Star Trek series gets shot with a phaser and dies without having
said a word, but to fans of the series these are established characters
who deserve to have some significance to their deaths. Two semi-regular
Klingon characters were killed off in Star Trek: Generations, but they
died as a result of their own deceptive scheming, and after considerable
screen time. It was, well, a good death. Prowl et. al deserved the same
treatment.
>So, Star Wars came out this way too. We were all just thrown into the
>action.
No we weren't. We get a three-paragraph scroll setting up the plot and
the context. The first scene is a bit of an enigma, but we can guess it's
related to what we just read. And shortly, Darth Vader's words confirm
that guess. New characters are introduced slowly, and they generally
serve some purpose (ie Han and Chewie -- Luke and Ben need a ride; that's
how they get it.)
>So, not all characters are meant to advance the plot, just dress it up a
>little bit.
Further evidence of a weak plot. Star Wars basically has 8 characters
in it, eight people whose decisions and personalities and attitudes
influence events; everyone else is more or less incidental. TF:TM had a
rotating cast of dozens, relatively few of whom were fleshed out beyond
the level of "he's a wordy scientist" or "he's an annoying kid."
>Your opinion, which you are entitled to, of course, but a poorly based
>opinion. You are actually the first person who I know of that said the
>Movie "sucked".
And...? To quote a sig file I saw once, if a million people believe a
foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. Wise words, IMHO.
>> The first plot point is NEVER EXPLAINED. WHERE did he come from? WHY
>> does Unicron give a damn about Cybertron?
>
>Because it is a planet he can devour. That is established right away.
There is an infinity of planets out there. Instead he attacks the one
that is home planet of the owners of the Matrix, which is the one thing he
fears? What's he smoking and where can I sign up to get some?
>Because it is there, at that moment, and he wants to devour it. Why go
>somewhere else when he's got what he needs in front of him.
Because he *knows* it will attract the attention of people who have the
power (in the form of the Matrix) to destroy him. Sounds like a damn good
reason to go somewhere else to me.
>Yeah, he could have, but he decided not to. Somehow an evil entity's
>every decision has to be analized?
When it's a blatantly stupid decision, yes. Anyway, I'm not arguing
about Unicron as a "real" entity; I'm approaching it from the perspective
that the writer could have done anything he wanted to with it. He could
have provided a reason for Unicron to attack; he could have given him a
motive and a background. That he *didn't* speaks poorly of the Movie as a
piece of fiction.
Since when does evrything have to be
>explained? The X-files is a terrific TV show, and the movie was great
>to, but you'd probably say the movie sucked because it didn't explain
>the entire content of the previous seasons of X-files.
From all accounts the X-Files movie is an excellent work that stands
firmly on its own, even for those who like myself know little of the
series, and I am looking forward to it. As for not explaining everything,
X-files is a bit different from Transformers. In X-Files, the theme, the
plot, everything about it centers on uncertainty and not knowing what's
true and what isn't. It's a mystery story with many convolutions and
twists. Transformers is *not* like that in the least; it's the story of a
civil war between aliens. The reason things aren't explained is not
because it adds to a sense of mystery and intrigue and cover-up; the
reason things aren't explained is simply that the writer didn't bother to
explain them. I call it "shoddy writing".
> WHY is the Matrix the one thing that
>> he fears?
>
>Because "It is the One thing, The Only thing!" that can stand in his
>way.
That's what I just asked -- WHY is it the only thing that can stand in
his way? Can someone answer the question, please? For comparison, in the
comics, the Matrix was the essense of his arch-enemy, Primus. It was
purity and life, goodness and justice. When it was unleashed in the
soulessness that was Unicron, it was "explosive", kind of like a
matter-antimatter reaction. No such explanation was provided in the movie
(or even in the subsequent cartoons, for that matter.) It would have been
fairly simple to do; it wouldn't have necessarily taken that much time;
yet, it wasn't done.
>He can't reach or conquer every soul in the galaxy, and he needs
>Galvatron to destroy the matrix. The most he could do is eat the planet
>on which the matrix carrier is on, but he can't be evrywhere at once.
>Common sense would dictate that he needs someone to recruit.
Common sense would dictate that he needs to go someplace where there
aren't any Matrixes waiting to destroy him.
>Again, the whole X-files thing. The X-files don't explain anything at
>all. It takes a whole season to figure anything out. The Movie answered
>one question only, and posed a dozen more.
X-Files does it intentionally, as a result of tangled intrigues,
deciept, and cover-up. TFTM does it thoughtlessly, as a result of an
incoherant and poorly thought-out plot.
>> without any explanation or relevance to the characters.
>
>The relevance is that he is a threat to theirs and Cybertron's
>existence, by the facy that he can eat a planet.
So what? The writers could have had the Death Star come along with
pretty much the same result, and it would make the same amount of sense.
In TFTM Unicron is just "there" all of a sudden, and it's never explained
why; in fact, his appearance defies logic in light of the facts we're
given about him. If something way out of the ordinary comes along in a
story, I expect it to be explained. Otherwise... well, it's just a random
element.
>> sacrifice, or intelligence by the characters is involved; the character
>> who just *happened* to have the Matrix just *happens* to be fighting the
>> one character who can open the Matrix, and they just *happen* to be inside
>> Unicron at the time when Hot Rod just *happens* to grab it.
>
>Optimus Prime explained this before he died, in the Movie.
"But one day... an Autobot shall rise from our ranks... and purely by
coincidence... use the Matrix to eliminate... our greatest plot device..."
Again, I'm attacking the writing here. The writers might as well have
had the Matrix just fall out of the sky into Hot Rod's hand, given the
randomness with which he bumps into it. How much more interesting it
might have been if the Autobots had actually had to *work* to get the
Matrix into Unicron, or to get hold of it after Galvatron made off with
it. Hot Rod bumped into it purely by chance, and was getting his butt
handed to him by Galvatron until the Matrix saved him. That's just not a
tremendously ingenious or clever character, IMO, yet we're aparently
supposed to admire him as a hero and new leader of the good guys.
>The decepticons abandoned the planet because Unicron was attacking it.
Or maybe the Autobots drove them out. Or maybe they were all killed.
Or maybe Primus arose from the depths of Cybertron and smote them all. We
were NEVER TOLD what happened, and that is simply shoddy writing.
>Come on now, where did you get this stuff? Almost all your points have
>already been shot down by me, just one person. How do you think the rest
>of ATT will react?
Y'know, it's not often I have this reaction strongly enough to actually
write it down, but I have to say...
BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!
> Come up with some better support. Somehow a cartoon
>movie has to be a spielberg quality film?
It doesn't have to be anything. But it *could* be a modestly serious
piece of science fiction, something that adults would find entertaining
and enjoyable, something with depth and meaning and feeling, and *still*
achieve its intentions of selling toys to the kiddies. Instead they took
the easy way out: put together a series of pretty pictures and a big,
scary enemy, and don't worry if it doesn't hang together as a coherant
story.
>TF:TM isn't but it is still a
>good movie, and it definately doesn't suck.
Then how come I left the theater as a 12 year old kid feeling like I'd
just seen a lot of nothing? The only thing that really was impressed upon
me was that a lot of my favorite characters from the show were dead for no
good reason. The rest was just pretty pictures and big explosions.
>I wasn't set up to think something else.
Did you watch the same movie I did? The first three lines of the movie
set this up very clearly:
Ironhide: Every time I look into a monitor my circuits sizzle. When are
we gonna start bustin' Deceptichops?
Optimus: We don't have enough energon cubes to power a full-scale assault.
[BotCon MST3K crew: Or ammo, or guns, or TROOPS.]
>It was one plot, with a subplot added. Somehow all plots have to be
>resolved at movie's end?
If they aren't brought to some form of conclusion at some point in the
story, why were they there to begin with? They simply subtract time that
could be devoted to characterization or development of the other plots.
>
>> Furthermore, the second plot point of Unicron is itself never really
>> addressed; instead we get yet *another* diversion, as the Autobots
>> flounder helplessly from one place to another, leaving the viewer saying,
>> "Well, those were pretty pictures, but what does it have to *do* with
>> anything?" By the time we get to Hot Rod and Kup fighting Sharkticons,
>> that is my precise reaction. The only tangential relation that the
>> Junk/Quintessa sidetrips have is that they allow the Autobots to recruit a
>> few allies who prove to be rather useless in the end. These two sets of
>> characters would have been much more better off being relegated to the TV
>> series, if they had to be shown at all.
>
>What? Did you say something again? Can anybody else decifer what is
>being said here? It's like writing words for the sake of writing words,
>instead of writing words to illustrate a point.
"Then I'll explain, and I'll use small words so you'll be sure to
understand..."
There's this big bad guy called Unicron. He's going to eat Cybertron.
The Autobots like Cybertron and don't want it to be eaten, so they fly
into space to go do something about Unicron. So at this point we are
expecting to see: what are the Autobots going to do? How will they deal
with this great big threat? Will they use their brains, their strength,
their technology, or what? But we don't see that. Instead they crash on
a couple of random planets and go through a series of random adventures.
It was really pretty to look at, but it had NOTHING to do with stopping
Unicron from eating Cybertron. When they get to Cybertron, they're not
any more ready to deal with Unicron than they were before.
[re: the Quints being the TFs' creators]
>becomes obvious when the new cartoons came out after the movie. They
>were put in the movie to make way for new episodes, that much IS
>obvious.
I don't believe that's the case. When the Quints showd up in FFoD my
reaction was, "What? Who are these people? Were they in the Movie or
something??" The fight scene with the Dinobots and Sharkticons ends on a
note that implies the end of the Quints.
> The Quints as the TFs creators is one of
>> the most abysmal retcons I've ever seen... given their role in the Movie,
>> it is simply and totally unbelievable.
>
>Why?
Because from all appearances they were a bunch of demented weirdos who
sat on their planet tossing people to the Sharkticons. They didn't react
to the appearance of two of the race they supposedly created any
differently than they did to any of the other guys they captured.
> Somehow you can believe all the other improbable scenearios that
>take place in other movies.
Damn, folks, he's been monitoring my thoughts again. Man, I hate it
when people know what I believe before I've even said it.
>> Nowhere was it implied that this race was more populous than a few
>> wierdos sitting in their little fortress.]
>
>No shit. You don't say. Somehow there sould be many more creators
>roaming around?
My point is, it doesn't look like there's any other Quints besides the
ones we see in the fortress. And *those* Quints should be Sharkticon
food. Ergo there should't be any of them left.
> >The Movie did nothing to
>> establish these characters; it simply lifted them from the cartoon and
>> killed them.
>
>So, somehow every supporting character must have a complete established
>history in the first five minutes of the show?
If that supporting character is a long-standing regular from the
series, and they're going to be killed off, yes. Anything else is cheap
and insulting to fans of the show.
>> before in your whole life. TF:TM did nothing of the sort for any of the
>> characters except Optimus Prime, and maybe Starscream (who went out with a
>> fine sense of having gotten his come-uppance.)
>
>Exactly. The Movie established the important characters. How can you
>compare an extra to Captain Kirk? Somehow ALL characters in the movie
I'm not. But in Generations they didn't kill off Scotty and Checkov;
they killed one character after focusing on him for a long time. The rest
were simply relegated to the background. If TF:TM wanted to focus on the
new over the old, that's how they should have handled it.
>should have meaningful deaths. What you are implying makes no sense. The
>movie would be way too long for such plot additions. And Come-uppance?
>Use a word here please.
"Got his just deserts." "Got what he had coming to him." "Earned his
fate." There, ya happy? And attack arguments, not choice of wording,
please.
>Yeah, but Earth has always been an issue because of its vast resources,
>so why battle on Cybertron, when the real power lies in posession of
>earth.
Then why bother with Cybertron at all in the movie? Build the plot
around control of Earth. Maybe Unicron could have gone there instead.
>Theonly good idea here, but entirely unnecessary. A death is a death,
>whether or not cunning was used to achieve it.
Have you watched Beast Wars? Specifically, "Other Voices" I and II?
At the end of the second episode, Optimus Primal is destroyed by an
exploding stasis pod, that he is trapped in by Megatron after a clever web
of planning and deception. That makes a far more satisfying death (and a
better story) than if he'd just been shot dead one day on the battlefield,
which is pretty much what happened to all the TFTM guys.
>Well, the movie was shown in the eighties. So it makes sense to have
>eighties music.
No it doesn't. They could have gone with a purely instrumental
soundtrack, something that adds mood and feeling without intruding and
distracting from the action of the film.
--
Robert Powers of the Ever-Changing .sig
repo...@shell.faradic.net
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6754 _____________
| Song in my head right now: |
| Battle in the Mutara Nebula from Star Trek II. Now THAT |
|_is the way to soundtrack an action movie!________________|
Iggy Drougge
jho...@aol.com (JHooksX) skrev 22 Jun 1998 21:29:32 GMT följande:
>Rob Powers, you suck.
>
>You beat me to the punch!!
>
>I was all ready to talk about the abysmal film that is called "Transformers:
>The Movie", and then I see your post. Damn.
I beat you both to the punch, but I suppose that's all forgotten. =)
>Its sad, really. I was all pumped up to see a movie I haven't seen in easily
>two years. I remembered many of the lines, but my love of the movie was simply
>nostalgia.
I saw it for the first time a few months ago (Thanks, Cecilia!), and I
was not as disappointed as when I first saw the TV series, since I had
read the comic adaption, so I knew what to expect.
I can't really complain at the animation, but the plot was as thin and
badly thought out as the TV series in general, and since I had read
great Unicron-themed epics such as Matrix Quest and Legacy of Unicron,
it just seemed like a garish Technicolor copy.
>Sitting there, watching the movie that is just a bunch of "kewl battle scenes"
>mixed in with "kewl lines" and "jarring music", I practically fell asleep. I
>didn't care about the characters, their plight, their "tragedy", or any of
>their conflicts. I found much of the dialogue to be stiff and cliche'd, and
>damn it, I understood Leonard Martin's review of the movie much clearer.
It was a bad and dishonourable way to kill off well-known characters.
The closest comparison would be the Underbase saga, which was at
almost the same low level.
>I was excited to see it on a larger screen when going to BotCon. After seeing
>it, I wish I could have just remembered it via nostalgia. Damn toy commercial.
I'm glad my mind isn't as blurred by nostalgia as others'. That was at
least one good point with growing up without cable TV and movies.
--
/Iggy, the irregular regular.
The Dude
I agree with some of the stuff you said. I think that the war between the
Autobots and Decepticons is much more interesting than Unicron, which is
nothing more than a blatant plot device, and I thought most of the attention
should be used on the retaking of Cybertron, and I wondered where the humans
were because besides Spike and Daniel, there aren't any. But that being said,
I still enjoy the movie tremondously, and not just for nostalgia value,
although that plays a large role in it. I don't mind the songs, I think they
work in context, much like the songs in 'The Graduate' do (please don't throw
anything at me) and I like the animation. It's not exceptional, like some
anime or Don Bluth's 80's work, but it is competent, despite the flubs which I
suspect got through because the movie was rushed into theaters while the toys
were still popular. I also find the voice acting pretty good, better in fact
than the BW voices, which is one of the shows only weak links. The first
third really works for me, although the last two thirds not as much. Of
course I did have empathy for those characters because I had watched the
show. I sometimes think that the characters are much truer to their own
natures in the movie than they are in the show, they are too watered down in
the show. While not everyone is focused on enough, the ones that are really
shine. But that's just my onpinion, I could be wrong.
The Dude (of course I am one of the few people here that prefers the 3rd
season to the first two)
Galaxy Shuttle
I agree, the movie's plot stinks, but I'd have to disagree about the music -
the 80's rock was a welcomed change of pace for me, compared to other animated
movies' showtunes. For me, the 80's rock soundtrack and Vince Dicola's syth
score keeps me entertained whenever I watch it. :)
--
|\_______
|________=-
Galaxy Shuttle
http://www.geocites.com/TelevisionCity/7650
Brainstrm2
>The Dude (of course I am one of the few people here that prefers the 3rd
>season to the first two)
>
>
I too prefer season 3. It has a more sci-fi feel, and, IMO, characters with
more potential, such as Rodimus Prime. The problem is they didn't use this
potential as much as they could have.
LNC Shall
i don't remember who started this thread, but whoever it was (Robert Powers?)
did a really well-written piece and made me think about TF:TM in a way that i
hadnt before.. nice post!