Attn: RHINO Video
Gyumaoh
Subject: Act II slowdown in "War Dawn" (episode #700-58, originally aired:
12/25/85)
It has been brought to my attention recently that in the second season
Transformers episode "War Dawn" (#700-58), act 2 is played too slowly. It was
like this when it originally aired and on VHS releases.
If you watch this episode, after the first commercial break, all of the
characters voices, music, and sound effects are noticeably slower. Then, after
the next commercial break, the sound is back to normal.
After reading on the Internet about the 4% "PAL speedup", I captured this part
of the episode from VHS onto my computer and sped it up by 4%. After doing so,
the audio sounded as if it were now playing at the correct speed.
This brings me to some questions for you:
- After experimenting with changing the speed of Act II of "War Dawn", I have
developed a THEORY that this part of the episode was somehow accidentally
recorded at PAL speed instead of NTSC speed. (I have no facts to back this up,
except that it sounds better when played back 4% faster.) Is this correct?
(And if no[t], what is the real story behind this?) Was the audio slowed down
before it was sent to the animators, or are both the audio AND video too slow?
- More importantly, are there any plans to correct this speed issue on the DVD
release of this episode?
Zobovor
>More importantly, are there any plans to correct this speed issue on
>the DVD release of this episode?
Ooh, good thing you brought this up now. There's probably still time to get
this corrected. I just sent this information off to the appropriate people, so
with any luck they can make the necessary corrections. (Assuming their copy of
the episode has the same problems, that is.)
Scific1258
them. I hope so, because the schedule for G1 DVD Season 2 part One is NEXT
WEEK.
Zobovor
If the episodes they have access to have more unfinished animation and missing
effects, then there's probably not much they can do about that. (They simply
don't have time to compare each episode scene-by-scene to determine which
bloopers were actually there in the episodes that were originally broadcast.
We complain about the snow falling upwards in "Fire in the Sky," but nobody
mentioned the entirely-blue Optimus in "S.O.S. Dinobots" because one mistake is
"supposed" to be there, but the other isn't.)
I've been putting in some suggestions to correct a few of the more glaring
problems in the second-season episodes, in an attempt to offset whatever new
glitches may arise. The timing problem in "War Dawn," for example, should be
easy to fix. I've also put in suggestions to correct Starscream's erroneous
arithmetic from "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and to replace the
missing Combaticon dialogue from "Aerial Assault" (whether hiring S. Marc
Jordan for a new recording session is within Rhino's budget is anyone's guess,
of course).
Oh, and remember the new sound effects that Rhino apparently added to the
commercial bumpers from the first-season DVD? It turns out that those sound
effects were always there; the volume was just cranked way down, and all Rhino
did was take the existing sound elements and boost the volume a bit.
--
Zobovor
...And the question on everyone's mind is: Has the Big Z finally flipped?
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html
Rik Bakke
> Oh, and remember the new sound effects that Rhino apparently
> added to the commercial bumpers from the first-season DVD? It
> turns out that those sound effects were always there; the volume
> was just cranked way down, and all Rhino did was take the existing
> sound elements and boost the volume a bit.
That's all very well and good, but for what possible reason could
they have thought that substituting that new sound for various
weaponry fired on the SEASON ONE DVDs was a good idea? I
have always admired RHINO's projects, because they've always
put a great deal of effort and love into their product (their handling
of the Monkees catalogue is an excellent example of that), but where
that sound is concerned, I think someone made a very bad judgment
call.
--
Rik Bakke
silve...@c2i.net
THE CYBERTRON CHRONICLE
http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/
Transformers Fan Code
G++ FR FW+ #75 D+ AA+ N++ W++ B++ OQP BC98-02++ CN+++ OM+
Zobovor and His Many Cats
>That's all very well and good, but for what possible reason could
> they have thought that substituting that new sound for various
>weaponry fired on the SEASON ONE DVDs was a good idea? I
>have always admired RHINO's projects, because they've always
>put a great deal of effort and love into their product (their handling
>of the Monkees catalogue is an excellent example of that), but where
>that sound is concerned, I think someone made a very bad judgment
>call.
Their reasoning was that the sounds were always supposed to be there, but that
you couldn't hear them very well (particularly on the low-quality speakers of
1980's television sets), so they amplified the sound effects. They didn't
realize that anyone would object to being able to hear the sound effects more
clearly.
One alternative suggestion they made for future releases was to keep the sound
effects amplified as part of the 5.1 mix, and use the unamplified version on
the 2.0 stereo mix that most DVD players mix down to automatically. Anybody
here think that would be an acceptable solution?
--
Zobovor
Kitty love.
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html
Rik Bakke
> Rik Bakke wrote:
>
> > That's all very well and good, but for what possible reason
> > could they have thought that substituting that new sound
> > for various weaponry fired on the SEASON ONE DVDs was
> > a good idea?
>
> Their reasoning was that the sounds were always supposed
> to be there, but that you couldn't hear them very well (particularly
> on the low-quality speakers of 1980's television sets), so they
> amplified the sound effects.
Just to be sure we're on the same page, I meant that in many
instances there is an entirely different sound when, for example
Megatron fires his fusion cannon. In those instances, that
sound is the only thing I can hear. The characteristic sound
of his fusion cannon is all but, if not completely, inaudible. Is
that what you are also referring to?
> They didn't realize that anyone would object to being able
> to hear the sound effects more clearly.
Well, as I've explained, it's not a question of hearing anything
more clearly, it's a matter of hearing something new where there
was once something else.
> One alternative suggestion they made for future releases was
> to keep the sound effects amplified as part of the 5.1 mix, and
> use the unamplified version on the 2.0 stereo mix that most DVD
> players mix down to automatically. Anybody here think that
> would be an acceptable solution?
If that means the original sound effects (or what certainly seemed
to be original sound effects) are retained in the 2.0 stereo mix, yes.
Zobovor and His Many Cats
>Just to be sure we're on the same page, I meant that in many
>instances there is an entirely different sound when, for example
>Megatron fires his fusion cannon. In those instances, that
>sound is the only thing I can hear. The characteristic sound
>of his fusion cannon is all but, if not completely, inaudible. Is
>that what you are also referring to?
Nope, sorry. I thought we were still just talking about the sound effects on
the commercial bumpers.
Tim Finn did mention something to me about some sound effects in the episodes
that sound as though they were a recent addition and not part of the original
soundtrack. I didn't know what he was talking about at the time, but it sounds
like the same phenomenon that you're describing.
Just so we're on the same page, here: Does this happen every time Megatron
fires his fusion cannon, or only in a few scenes? Are you saying that a
brand-new sound effect is used in place of the normal one during these scenes?
Does it sound as though the volume for the original sound effect has been
cranked down? Does this happen with other sound effects? All of them, or just
certain ones?
>> One alternative suggestion they made for future releases was
>> to keep the sound effects amplified as part of the 5.1 mix, and
>> use the unamplified version on the 2.0 stereo mix that most DVD
>> players mix down to automatically. Anybody here think that
>> would be an acceptable solution?
>
>If that means the original sound effects (or what certainly seemed
>to be original sound effects) are retained in the 2.0 stereo mix, yes.
Again, here I was just referring to the sound effects volume on the commercial
bumpers. If you want, throw me some specific examples of which scenes in which
episodes have the wrong sound effects, and I'll fire off a message to Rhino
asking them whether this was an artifact of the original film elements or
something that they themselves added.
Gregatron
> Oh, and remember the new sound effects that Rhino apparently added to the
> commercial bumpers from the first-season DVD? It turns out that those sound
> effects were always there; the volume was just cranked way down, and all Rhino
> did was take the existing sound elements and boost the volume a bit.
I don't believe it! Seriously? Those cheesy sound effects seem to
blend perfectly with all the other "modern-era stock cartoon sounds"
they defaced the episodes themselves with...
- Gregatron
Gregatron
Oh...man...you really don't know, do you? Rhino added a bunch of NEW
"modern-day stock cartoon effects" to the episodes. Lots. Laser
blasts, explosions, jet engines, punches, even in the TITLE SEQUENCES.
They sound absolutely HORRID. Thankgfully, the episodes' original
audio tracks exist in 2.0, but the 5.1 versions are really messed up.
For example, in "Divide and Conquer", when Ironhide blasts out of
Decepticon H.Q. and says "Some liquid nitrogen should cool things
off!", Rhino has added a loud "nitrogen-blast" sound (a stock sound
often heard on modern shows like the Powerpuff Girls, etc.) that
TOTALLY drowns out the dialogue. Unfortunately, on disc 2 (which this
episode can be seen on) the 2.0 track for each episode contains all
the same new sounds as the 5.1 track. It's sick. I only listen to the
2.0 tracks when I watch the DVDs, and hate the fact that disc 2
doesn't have the original tracks at ALL.
Seriously, though, I think the commerical bumper sounds "always"
having been there is pure bull****.
- Gregatron
Zobovor and His Many Cats
>Oh...man...you really don't know, do you? Rhino added a bunch of
>NEW "modern-day stock cartoon effects" to the episodes. Lots. Laser
>blasts, explosions, jet engines, punches, even in the TITLE
>SEQUENCES.
This is the first I've heard of this. (I'm finally getting an RF adaptor for
my DVD player on Monday so I can actually *use* the blasted thing, so maybe
I'll see if I can rent the first-season set from the video store or something.)
>For example, in "Divide and Conquer", when Ironhide blasts out of
>Decepticon H.Q. and says "Some liquid nitrogen should cool things
>off!", Rhino has added a loud "nitrogen-blast" sound (a stock sound
>often heard on modern shows like the Powerpuff Girls, etc.) that
>TOTALLY drowns out the dialogue.
Hmm, that's weird. My first thought is that a lot of the sound effects, even
in the new shows, are taken from the same archives that most of the 1980's
cartoons borrowed heavily from. Since I haven't actually seen this version of
the episode yet, though, I guess I should probably reserve my comments until
then.
>Seriously, though, I think the commerical bumper sounds "always"
>having been there is pure bull****.
I can't think of any reason why they'd be dishonest about it, but I guess
anything's possible. I'll get some clarification on this and get back to
y'all.
Gregatron
> in the new shows, are taken from the same archives that most of the 1980's
> cartoons borrowed heavily from. Since I haven't actually seen this version of
> the episode yet, though, I guess I should probably reserve my comments until
> then.
>
> >Seriously, though, I think the commerical bumper sounds "always"
> >having been there is pure bull****.
>
> I can't think of any reason why they'd be dishonest about it, but I guess
> anything's possible. I'll get some clarification on this and get back to
> y'all.
Yeah, man, good luck. You'll REALLY have a lot to check out concerning
the DVDs. I was in SHOCK when I first heard the new sound effects in
the title sequence of MTMTE pt. 1, and feared (correctly) that such
sounds had been added to the episodes themselves.
Here's an example:
(Main title sequence:)
Autobots transform, Prime's symbol approaches camera. Loud *BOOM*
sound.
Decepticon jets transform and fire. Classic "Decepticon laser" sound
is drowned out by new, lame laser sounds. Sounds continue for rest of
sequence, in background.
- Gregatron
Zobovor and His Many Cats
>I don't believe it! Seriously? Those cheesy sound effects seem to
>blend perfectly with all the other "modern-era stock cartoon sounds"
>they defaced the episodes themselves with...
Having just previewed two of the second-season DVD discs today, I'm inclined to
agree with you. (The instructions for my DVD player said that you couldn't
hook it up through the VCR, because all sets had anti-copying software that
would distort the picture, so I didn't even try. I had to plug the thing in as
soon as the discs arrived in the mail, though, and to my surprise there were no
problems at all. And to think I've had this DVD player for two or three months
now.)
Here's the good news about the second-season set: None of the animation
problems that I was dreading seem to be in evidence. This time, it looks like
Rhino really, truly did get the finished versions of the episodes. The only
things they didn't have were the on-screen episode titles, but they managed to
match up the font and placement using the screen shots I made for them. I'm
very impressed with their work; it's my opinion that most people won't even
notice the difference.
And now for the bad news: The new sound effects (which I'm now convinced
*were* added by Rhino) are in evidence during just about every episode that I
previewed. "Dinobot Island" part 1 stands out in my mind as one of the worst
offenders, with new airplane swooping sounds for Powerglide and random
electrical surge sound effects when he and Bumblebee hit the energy waves at
the beginning. These were overlayed on top of the original sound effects, so
it's definitely *not* a case of Rhino simply cranking up the volume on the
sound effects track. (As a matter of fact, I found a lot of these exact same
sounds when I was collecting sound effects for the Radio Free Cybertron movie
parody. I'm using one of them as the event association sound when I empty the
Windows recycling bin.)
I fired off another e-mail to them asking for more information about this, and
if they would please stop adding sounds to future installments. Obviously,
it's too late to do anything about the first second-season set, but maybe the
second box set can still be saved. I guess Rhino's intention was to modernize
the sound of the episodes, but I really don't like the idea of them tampering
with the soundtrack just because they can.
Along the same lines, it seems they've decided not to go with my suggestion to
fix Starscream's arithmetic in "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" or
replace the missing Combaticon dialogue in "Aerial Assault." I can appreciate
that they might not have wanted to tamper with the episodes if they were
concerned about preserving them in their original form, but it seems weird that
they would reject my suggestions on how to *improve* the watchability of the
episodes while they were busy defacing them by adding new, random sound effects
that *detract* from the viewing experience.
Now, before anyone comes back with the usual refrain about how all the fandom
does is bitch and whine, and that nothing is ever good enough for them, let me
offer a preemptive caveat. I think the DVD's, overall, are fabulous. The
quality of the visuals is absolutely stunning. I've never seen Transformers
cartoon with this level of clarity in my entire life, and I'm picking up on all
sorts of juicy details that I never noticed before. (Discovered tonight that
Nightbird is, in fact, *carried* into the Decepticon temporary base by
Thundercracker and Skywarp. Fully plan to tease Raksha about this on ATTCM
later tonight.) I love being able to watch scenes repeatedly or in slow-mo
mode without worrying about the wear and tear I'm causing to my tapes. And,
naturally, I love having unedited versions of the episodes without the G2
graphics. I am, in short, in love.
The problem with adding the sound effects is that these are no longer the
definitive G1 episodes in their original form. Back when the Sci-Fi episodes
were on the air, I taped them all, even knowing there were chunks missing,
because they were all there was. They *had* to be good enough, because it was
either that or nothing. When the G2 episodes started airing, I was delighted
to see these missing chunks intact once more, so I overlooked the computer
graphics in favor of having complete episodes. Again, I had to accept them as
being good enough, because that was all there was. Now, though, Rhino has the
opportunity to issue the episodes in their original, uncut, unaltered form, and
yet they're *still* making deliberate changes. For those who didn't read my
entire post, I'm not talking about the unfinished animation from the
first-season disc. That wasn't really their fault. I'm referring to the
willful addition of sound effects that were never part of the episodes to begin
with.
I can understand how a lot of fans probably won't care. I get the impression
that there are still a lot of people who haven't seen most of the G1 episodes
in years, despite the Sci-Fi and G2 run. Many of you will probably be happy
just to get the episodes in *some* form, and I can appreciate that. In a way,
complaining about the DVD is like complaining about, say, the Hasbro reissue
Prime's smoke stacks, since in both instances we're talking about very minor
changes that really don't detract from the overall experience. I agree with
that, for the most part. The difference here is that Rhino didn't *have* to
make these changes at all. They did it just because they felt like it. When
you're releasing something on DVD, you're creating a permanent, archival copy
that will never deteriorate or have to be replaced. It's highly unlikely that
Rhino will ever have to release the Transformers cartoon on DVD after this
point, so it bothers me that they took their one big chance to finally, once
and for all time, make the cartoon available in its true, unadulterated,
original form... and more or less botched it.
I'm going to watch the DVD with my wife at some point over the weekend, and
I'll probably take notes on the specific changes made to the episodes. I'll
post it when and if I get it done. (No promises, though. I've got a lot of
crap to get done this week.)
One last thing: I'm sorry for doubting you, Greg. You were right. Tell your
sister... you were right...
Gregatron
> Gregatron wrote:
>
> >I don't believe it! Seriously? Those cheesy sound effects seem to
> >blend perfectly with all the other "modern-era stock cartoon sounds"
> >they defaced the episodes themselves with...
>
> Having just previewed two of the second-season DVD discs today, I'm inclined to
> agree with you. (The instructions for my DVD player said that you couldn't
> hook it up through the VCR, because all sets had anti-copying software that
> would distort the picture, so I didn't even try. I had to plug the thing in as
> soon as the discs arrived in the mail, though, and to my surprise there were no
> problems at all. And to think I've had this DVD player for two or three months
> now.)
>
> Here's the good news about the second-season set: None of the animation
> problems that I was dreading seem to be in evidence. This time, it looks like
> Rhino really, truly did get the finished versions of the episodes. The only
> things they didn't have were the on-screen episode titles, but they managed to
> match up the font and placement using the screen shots I made for them. I'm
> very impressed with their work; it's my opinion that most people won't even
> notice the difference.
Yes, the VHS releases for season 2 episodes a while back were the
finished ones, but had no title cards. Are these DVD versions made
from the much more colorful, etc. 35 mm masters? Or the 1" broadcast
masters?
> And now for the bad news: The new sound effects (which I'm now convinced
> *were* added by Rhino) are in evidence during just about every episode that I
> previewed. "Dinobot Island" part 1 stands out in my mind as one of the worst
> offenders, with new airplane swooping sounds for Powerglide and random
> electrical surge sound effects when he and Bumblebee hit the energy waves at
> the beginning. These were overlayed on top of the original sound effects, so
> it's definitely *not* a case of Rhino simply cranking up the volume on the
> sound effects track. (As a matter of fact, I found a lot of these exact same
> sounds when I was collecting sound effects for the Radio Free Cybertron movie
> parody. I'm using one of them as the event association sound when I empty the
> Windows recycling bin.)
Told you so. It's chilling.
Are these new sounds also evident on the 2.0 tracks? ARE there 2.0
tracks? Because, Disc 2 aside, the season DVDs DO have the original,
beautiful audio tracks in 2.0, for the most part.
>
> I fired off another e-mail to them asking for more information about this, and
> if they would please stop adding sounds to future installments. Obviously,
> it's too late to do anything about the first second-season set, but maybe the
> second box set can still be saved. I guess Rhino's intention was to modernize
> the sound of the episodes, but I really don't like the idea of them tampering
> with the soundtrack just because they can.
Exactly. I also email them about this months ago, and explained that,
aside from the BLOOPERS contained in the "unfinished" 35 mm prints,
adding new sounds is an even WORSE way to violate the historical
accuracy of the episodes. It's just wrong. That's like Steven
Spielberg coming along and creating his own Star Wars Trilogy Special
Edition instead of GEORGE LUCAS, the guy who MADE the films. Rhino
doesn't have the RIGHT to "improve" (destroy) the work of the original
sound editors.
> Along the same lines, it seems they've decided not to go with my suggestion to
> fix Starscream's arithmetic in "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" or
> replace the missing Combaticon dialogue in "Aerial Assault." I can appreciate
> that they might not have wanted to tamper with the episodes if they were
> concerned about preserving them in their original form, but it seems weird that
> they would reject my suggestions on how to *improve* the watchability of the
> episodes while they were busy defacing them by adding new, random sound effects
> that *detract* from the viewing experience.
Exactly. However, in all fairness, it would *also* be wrong for them
to make the corrections you suggested...unless the original versions
were there on the DVDs to be compared to.
>
> Now, before anyone comes back with the usual refrain about how all the fandom
> does is bitch and whine, and that nothing is ever good enough for them, let me
> offer a preemptive caveat. I think the DVD's, overall, are fabulous. The
> quality of the visuals is absolutely stunning. I've never seen Transformers
> cartoon with this level of clarity in my entire life, and I'm picking up on all
> sorts of juicy details that I never noticed before. (Discovered tonight that
> Nightbird is, in fact, *carried* into the Decepticon temporary base by
> Thundercracker and Skywarp. Fully plan to tease Raksha about this on ATTCM
> later tonight.) I love being able to watch scenes repeatedly or in slow-mo
> mode without worrying about the wear and tear I'm causing to my tapes. And,
> naturally, I love having unedited versions of the episodes without the G2
> graphics. I am, in short, in love.
Exactly. Aside from the sound effects and visual problems/bloopers
Rhino tried to fix, these DVDs are BREATHTAKING. I LOVE the colors and
details. This is a far cry from my 5th generation bootleg
videotapes...
The freeze-frame/so-mo capablities of DVD have made my work so much
easier. You can REALLY study the Movie and the episodes now. In fact,
I've spent a lot of time studying the Movie and noticing so many
things that were impossible to see before, AND admiring the beautiful
colors/details. SURELY, THIS is what the actual CELS looked like when
the animators painted them!!!!!!!
> The problem with adding the sound effects is that these are no longer the
> definitive G1 episodes in their original form. Back when the Sci-Fi episodes
> were on the air, I taped them all, even knowing there were chunks missing,
> because they were all there was. They *had* to be good enough, because it was
> either that or nothing. When the G2 episodes started airing, I was delighted
> to see these missing chunks intact once more, so I overlooked the computer
> graphics in favor of having complete episodes. Again, I had to accept them as
> being good enough, because that was all there was. Now, though, Rhino has the
> opportunity to issue the episodes in their original, uncut, unaltered form, and
> yet they're *still* making deliberate changes. For those who didn't read my
> entire post, I'm not talking about the unfinished animation from the
> first-season disc. That wasn't really their fault. I'm referring to the
> willful addition of sound effects that were never part of the episodes to begin
> with.
Yes, but as long as the 2.0 tracks are unmarred, for the most part,
I'm happy.
> I can understand how a lot of fans probably won't care. I get the impression
> that there are still a lot of people who haven't seen most of the G1 episodes
> in years, despite the Sci-Fi and G2 run. Many of you will probably be happy
> just to get the episodes in *some* form, and I can appreciate that. In a way,
> complaining about the DVD is like complaining about, say, the Hasbro reissue
> Prime's smoke stacks, since in both instances we're talking about very minor
> changes that really don't detract from the overall experience. I agree with
> that, for the most part. The difference here is that Rhino didn't *have* to
> make these changes at all. They did it just because they felt like it. When
> you're releasing something on DVD, you're creating a permanent, archival copy
> that will never deteriorate or have to be replaced. It's highly unlikely that
> Rhino will ever have to release the Transformers cartoon on DVD after this
> point, so it bothers me that they took their one big chance to finally, once
> and for all time, make the cartoon available in its true, unadulterated,
> original form... and more or less botched it.
I do believe the recent R2 DVD release of season 1 is accuarte, with
no changes at all.
> I'm going to watch the DVD with my wife at some point over the weekend, and
> I'll probably take notes on the specific changes made to the episodes. I'll
> post it when and if I get it done. (No promises, though. I've got a lot of
> crap to get done this week.)
>
> One last thing: I'm sorry for doubting you, Greg. You were right. Tell your
> sister... you were right...
And oh, how they danced,
The little children of Stonehenge...
Beneath the haunted moon...
For fear that daybreak...
Might come too soon.
- Gregatron
Zobovor and His Many Cats
>Are these DVD versions made from the much more colorful, etc. 35
>mm masters? Or the 1" broadcast masters?
I'm guessing they were made from the broadcast masters, this time. There's
some artifacting evident in most of the episodes, and the colors are a little
under-saturated in places. (The ocean water at the end of "Atlantis, Arise!",
for example, which I remembered as being a vibrant orange, is more of a dull
brown on the DVD. When we watched this episode, Ethan asked me why the water
looked like it was made of mud. Heh.)
I can only assume that the 35mm print had more of the unfinished animation that
was evident on the first-season DVD. Personally, I would have *loved* to have
seen that version... but as an archival curiosity, not as the definitive
release of The Transformers.
>Are these new sounds also evident on the 2.0 tracks? ARE there 2.0
>tracks? Because, Disc 2 aside, the season DVDs DO have the original,
>beautiful audio tracks in 2.0, for the most part.
You get the choice of 2.0 stereo tracks and 5.1 surround sound. I haven't
checked every episode yet, but the 2.0 version of "Autobot Spike" has the
original sound effects intact. Thanks for asking about this; I hadn't realized
there would be a difference, and I was pleased to discover that the theme song,
bumpers, and episode proper all sound like they're supposed to on the 2.0
tracks.
>It's just wrong. That's like Steven Spielberg coming along and creating
>his own Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition instead of GEORGE LUCAS,
>the guy who MADE the films. Rhino doesn't have the RIGHT to
>"improve" (destroy) the work of the original sound editors.
Actually, it doesn't bother me nearly so much, now that I know you have the
option of watching the episodes with or without the new sounds. The impression
I've gotten is that Rhino is just adding the new sound effects so they can slap
the Dolby label on the DVD's. This actually does make sense to me, since the
show wasn't originally recorded in stereo and it seems silly not to take
advantage of that capability in DVD players now. It makes the DVD's more
marketable, ultimately. (They still steadfastly maintain that all they're
doing is amping up the existing sound effects, though. Makes you wonder.)
>However, in all fairness, it would *also* be wrong for them to make the
>corrections you suggested...unless the original versions were there on
>the DVDs to be compared to.
I'm not one of the original producers of the show, of course, and I would be
hesitant to make more than two or three changes on this level since there
really is no way to read the creators' minds, but... I think I can say with a
fair amount of certainty that the corrections I suggested *would* bring the
episodes closer to the way they were meant to originally be seen. I realize
it's a subjective thing, of course. Tim Finn asked me whether Rhino should
have added some rock music to the end of "Blaster Blues," for example, so the
scene would make more sense (Blaster presses a button on his tape deck and
Optimus yells at him, but we hear nothing). Me, I wasn't sure. Did the sound
editors forget to dub in some "Cold Slither" tunes? Or did they make the
decision not to overlap the background music so it wouldn't sound cluttered
like the end of "Auto-Bop" did? There's no way to know.
On the other hand, it seems they *are* going to fix the slowdown problem with
the second act of "War Dawn." I guess that's a less invasive fix, admittedly.
Of course, one of the reasons I made those suggestions in the first place was
because I was anticipating a huge number of animation foul-ups, and wanted
something to counter-balance them and make the episodes a little more
enjoyable. Since the second-season episodes are largely the same as before,
this isn't really a big issue for me anymore.
Now, the question remains: Which versions of "Five Faces of Darkness" and
"Dark Awakening" should be on the third-season collection? The original and
complete editions only? Or both versions? If anybody's got any input on this,
now's the time to offer it. Surely there's more than a handful of us who
actually care about this stuff...
David Willis
> "Dark Awakening" should be on the third-season collection? The original
and
> complete editions only? Or both versions? If anybody's got any input on
this,
> now's the time to offer it. Surely there's more than a handful of us who
> actually care about this stuff...
First version of Dark Awakening, certainly. I don't want any reminders that
Return of Optimus Prime happened. ;)
--David
Dark Awakening RULES.
www.itswalky.com
Gregatron
> Gregatron wrote:
>
> >Are these DVD versions made from the much more colorful, etc. 35
> >mm masters? Or the 1" broadcast masters?
>
> I'm guessing they were made from the broadcast masters, this time. There's
> some artifacting evident in most of the episodes, and the colors are a little
> under-saturated in places. (The ocean water at the end of "Atlantis, Arise!",
> for example, which I remembered as being a vibrant orange, is more of a dull
> brown on the DVD. When we watched this episode, Ethan asked me why the water
> looked like it was made of mud. Heh.)
>
> I can only assume that the 35mm print had more of the unfinished animation that
> was evident on the first-season DVD. Personally, I would have *loved* to have
> seen that version... but as an archival curiosity, not as the definitive
> release of The Transformers.
Oh, well. At least we don't have to worry about more bloopers.
> >Are these new sounds also evident on the 2.0 tracks? ARE there 2.0
> >tracks? Because, Disc 2 aside, the season DVDs DO have the original,
> >beautiful audio tracks in 2.0, for the most part.
>
> You get the choice of 2.0 stereo tracks and 5.1 surround sound. I haven't
> checked every episode yet, but the 2.0 version of "Autobot Spike" has the
> original sound effects intact. Thanks for asking about this; I hadn't realized
> there would be a difference, and I was pleased to discover that the theme song,
> bumpers, and episode proper all sound like they're supposed to on the 2.0
> tracks.
>
Thank Primus. Although the Season 1 set was inconsistent in this
regard, if season 2 has the original tracks in 2.0 for ALL episodes,
then this means that (combined with the broadcast-mastrer images) that
we will have DVD episodes nearly 100% accurate to the original
broadcasts. Finally!
> >It's just wrong. That's like Steven Spielberg coming along and creating
> >his own Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition instead of GEORGE LUCAS,
> >the guy who MADE the films. Rhino doesn't have the RIGHT to
> >"improve" (destroy) the work of the original sound editors.
>
> Actually, it doesn't bother me nearly so much, now that I know you have the
> option of watching the episodes with or without the new sounds. The impression
> I've gotten is that Rhino is just adding the new sound effects so they can slap
> the Dolby label on the DVD's. This actually does make sense to me, since the
> show wasn't originally recorded in stereo and it seems silly not to take
> advantage of that capability in DVD players now. It makes the DVD's more
> marketable, ultimately. (They still steadfastly maintain that all they're
> doing is amping up the existing sound effects, though. Makes you wonder.)
Indeed, I was very happy when I heard the original tracks for season 1
in 2.0...however, some episodes have the "new" tracks in both 5.1 AND
2.0, giving us no option whatsoever. That made me upset. But 2 out of
three discs having the original soundtracks available ain't bad.
> >However, in all fairness, it would *also* be wrong for them to make the
> >corrections you suggested...unless the original versions were there on
> >the DVDs to be compared to.
>
> I'm not one of the original producers of the show, of course, and I would be
> hesitant to make more than two or three changes on this level since there
> really is no way to read the creators' minds, but... I think I can say with a
> fair amount of certainty that the corrections I suggested *would* bring the
> episodes closer to the way they were meant to originally be seen. I realize
> it's a subjective thing, of course. Tim Finn asked me whether Rhino should
> have added some rock music to the end of "Blaster Blues," for example, so the
> scene would make more sense (Blaster presses a button on his tape deck and
> Optimus yells at him, but we hear nothing). Me, I wasn't sure. Did the sound
> editors forget to dub in some "Cold Slither" tunes? Or did they make the
> decision not to overlap the background music so it wouldn't sound cluttered
> like the end of "Auto-Bop" did? There's no way to know.
True, that's probably how the episodes were *MEANT* to be seen, but
that's not what we got, now is it? The DVDs should be faithful to what
fans have known for nearly two decades, so we all have a frame of
reference for the episodes, and don't have "variations" popping up
that not everyone has access to.
> On the other hand, it seems they *are* going to fix the slowdown problem with
> the second act of "War Dawn." I guess that's a less invasive fix, admittedly.
True. Perhaps they should have the original version in 2.0 amd the
corrected version in 5.1.
> Of course, one of the reasons I made those suggestions in the first place was
> because I was anticipating a huge number of animation foul-ups, and wanted
> something to counter-balance them and make the episodes a little more
> enjoyable. Since the second-season episodes are largely the same as before,
> this isn't really a big issue for me anymore.
>
Very good.
> Now, the question remains: Which versions of "Five Faces of Darkness" and
> "Dark Awakening" should be on the third-season collection? The original and
> complete editions only? Or both versions? If anybody's got any input on this,
> now's the time to offer it. Surely there's more than a handful of us who
> actually care about this stuff...
Hmmm....that's tough. I've thought about it before. Perhaps clips of
the "additional" dialogue/narration should be placed in a separate
"alternate versions" section of the extra features.
Here's a REAL question...should Rhino offer various episodes with the
"fifth season" Tommy Kennedy and Powermaster Optimus Prime stuff????
Heh.
- Gregatron
Gregatron
Yeah, Akom animation aside (although the animation is some their best,
realitevely speaking), "Dark Awakening" has been one of my all-time
favorites since I was a kid. Scared the bolts out of me when I saw the
original airing at the age of three. Still, "The Return of Optimus
Prime" also has a special place in my heart, even though it
effectively negates "Dark Awakening".
- Gregatron
Thylacine 2000
It DIDN'T happen, silly!
And.... 'first or second version of FFOD'? I wasn't aware that there
had been any changes there except for the opening credits; what have I
been missing? This interests me because I've found myself liking FFOD
quite a bit in recent years; if you can look past the repulsive art
and animation and pay attention to storyline and character portrayals,
it's really one of the neatest and most sensible showcasings of a huge
horde of G1 that we ever got.
Zob, I think it's so cool that you actually get to preview these
episodes before their final release. Just for the record--you are
confirming both that the visuals and animation in the season 2
episodes are the same edits as the final broadcast version, without
the horrible missing-effects or scene splices on the season 1
DVDs..... *and* that the extra sound effects can be 'turned off' by
watching the DVDs without 5.1 Dolby?
If so, woo.
Zobovor and His Many Cats
>And.... 'first or second version of FFOD'? I wasn't aware that there
>had been any changes there except for the opening credits; what have I
>been missing?
The version of "Five Faces of Darkness" part 4 that was originally released to
video is slightly different from the version that was broadcast in the U.S.
The video release was missing all of Cosmos' dialogue, the decoy pilot saying
"Our engines have just gone critical," and the Quintesson voice that says, "Our
decoy worked! Cybertron is now helpless!" Rik Bakke tells me that this is
also the version SKY Channel played overseas. My best guess is that somebody
went back and added this dialogue after the episode was completed, which
explains why at least two sources wound up with unfinished episodes. (This
might also explain why Cosmos' voice isn't echoing like it usually does, and
that Quintesson voice is so oddly flanged.)
Obviously, the complete version with all the dialogue intact would be
preferable to the version that's missing lines, but I was curious to know if
anyone wanted to see the alternate version archived on the DVD as a curiosity.
Maybe Rhino could include the alternate scenes among the extra features,
depending on what else they've got planned?
>Zob, I think it's so cool that you actually get to preview these
>episodes before their final release. Just for the record--you are
>confirming both that the visuals and animation in the season 2
>episodes are the same edits as the final broadcast version, without
>the horrible missing-effects or scene splices on the season 1
>DVDs..... *and* that the extra sound effects can be 'turned off' by
>watching the DVDs without 5.1 Dolby?
The animation is the same across the board, yes. You might notice some slight
differences in the color saturation here and there, but the animation itself is
identical to the broadcast versions, complete with lighting effects.
Unfortunately, a more exhaustive examination earlier today reveals that you
can't turn off the new sound effects on *all* the episodes. I found that I was
able to for "Autobot Spike," but not "Changing Gears," "City of Steel" (which
has surprisingly few new sounds added) or "Attack of the Autobots." Rhino has
said that they will consistently leave the 2.0 stereo tracks unaltered in
future sets for the sake of the purists, though. I don't know if this will
apply to the set containing the latter half of season two, though (they may
have already been too far in production).
Also, one of the episodes has commercial bumpers that uses the music from G.I.
Joe! That can't be right, can it?
David Willis
that
> > Return of Optimus Prime happened. ;)
>
> It DIDN'T happen, silly!
Oh, thank God!
--David
www.itswalky.com
TyGator
"Dark Awakening" should be on the third-season collection? The original and
complete editions only? Or both versions? If anybody's got any input on this,
now's the time to offer it. Surely there's more than a handful of us who
actually care about this stuff... >>
Certainly the original version of Dark Awakening, with Rodimus speaking at
the end. The version with the narrator just seemed more invasive and made it
feel slightly like a commercial. For FFOD, absolutely the version with Cosmos
speaking. Perhaps they could put the alternate versions in with the bonus
material. There seems like there could be enough room for this type of thing
when looking at what is on the first bonus disc. Has Rhino said what they will
do with those short "Teletran 2" sequences that aired at the end of some season
3 episodes? I hope they are all included in some way.
-Ty
Parallax
>
> Also, one of the episodes has commercial bumpers that uses the music from G.I.
> Joe! That can't be right, can it?
Right? No. But that's actually how it aired. I remember it (and may
have it on tape) from satellite feed, back when G1 was being shown in
syndication. Which ep did you notice it in?
--
Replace '???????' with 'prodigy' to email me.
Zobovor and His Many Cats
> Has Rhino said what they will do with those short "Teletran 2"
>sequences that aired at the end of some season 3 episodes? I hope
>they are all included in some way.
Those were normally tied to specific episodes, so I assume that they'll simply
be attached to whichever episodes they normally aired with. It's probably
worth asking, though, just to be sure.
ma...@attcanada.ca
> Now, the question remains: Which versions of "Five Faces of Darkness" and
> "Dark Awakening" should be on the third-season collection? The original and
> complete editions only? Or both versions? If anybody's got any input on this,
> now's the time to offer it. Surely there's more than a handful of us who
> actually care about this stuff...
Personally, as far as "Dark Awakening" is concerned, I think they should keep it as
it was during its initial broadcast, without the voice over announcing the return
of Optimus Prime.
I'm not really aware of any differences in the "Five Faces of Darkness" quintilogy
aside from the standard third season opening being used on subsequent airings. (and
on the FHE VHS release) If it were up to me, I would use the FFoD opening for those
episodes.