The Rhino Problem
Gregatron
Well, now. Here we are, with Rhino's G1 season 3 DVD set approaching.
Hmmm.
Okay. Let's review the track record of one Rhino Home Entertainment...
The Transformers Season 1 box set:
This set uses beautiful 35mm negatives as the basis for the DVD
versions of the episodes (the original airings that most fans know and
love came from the finished 1" broadcast master tapes). Although the
picture is much more colorful and detailed than what we were used to,
the 35mm versions were, in some cases, incomplete (in other words,
they had unfinished, incorrect and/or unpolished animation sequences
that were fixed for the broadcast versions). Rhino made attempts to
splice in footage from the 1" broadcast versions to correct some of
these errors (as well as digitally cutting elements from the 1" tapes
and pasting them onto the 35mm versions, which looks AWFUL), but MANY
remain. Neraly every episode has some kind of error or change that was
NOT in the original version (even many of the faction scene bumpers in
MTMTE have been replaced with bumpers from other episodes, due to
their absence in the 35mm version). Fire in the Sky, Fire on the
Mountain, and (by far) Heavy Metal War suffer the most from this.
Also, the end titles actually use the credits from SEASON *2*
("copyright 1985", etc.), NOT season 1. This is due to the fact that
Rhino has access only to episodes without the episode titles and end
title credits (oddly enough), and had to recreate them for the DVD
sets.
The sound is another issue. The DVDs come with the option of 2.0 and
5.1 surround sound tracks. The 5.1 track is HORRID, as the episodes
were never MEANT to be mixed in 5.1. They just sound "wrong". Worst of
all is the fact that Rhino ADDED A BUNCH OF *CRAPPY*, "STOCK" CARTOON
SOUND EFFECTS (fire, laser blasts, jet flybys) TO THE ORIGINAL AUDIO.
These new sounds are distracting, and they drown out dialogue and
sound effects in many cases. Thankfully, the original audio is kept
intact on the 2.0 track, except for (inexplicably) the episodes on
disc 2, which contain the new 5.1 sound mix (the episodes in question
are "Divide and Conquer,"Fire in the Sky", "S.O.S. Dinobots", "Fire on
the Mountain", and "War of the Dinobots").
This new sound mix is a travesty. For those fans who are unfamiliar
with the series (as well as new fans who will be introduced to it via
the DVD sets), this is a slap in the face. I (and many others) waited
for YEARS to get the series on DVD. The DVDs should be the archival
version of the series, the one that is an accurate reflection of the
way the series was during its original run. Instead, we have a
patchwork of episodes, which are not entirely accurate to the original
versions, and create the same kind of problems the Generation 2
versions did in the early 90s. Rhino may have the right to release the
series on DVD, but what right do they have to muck with the work of
the original sound editors? These new sounds are not even part of the
TF G1 sound library and are wildly incongruous with the *real* sound
effects that were a staple of the series.
Still, aside from the inaccurate footage and a few episodes, the
picture quality is excellent, the best the episodes have ever seen.
The original commercial bumpers are also included (including, yes,
that's right, crappy new *sound effects* on the 5.1 audio tracks).
Thus, the sets are pretty much worthwhile.
Season 2 part 1 is the best Rhino G1 DVD release to date. As before,
the 35mm negatives were used as the basis for the episodes in the set,
but this time, they are almost entirely devoid of the errors that
plagued the season 1 DVD set. Aside from a bit of tampering with
historical accuracy (correcting the spelling of the title of "A
Deceptacon Raider in King Arthur's Court", and mistakenly removing the
the camera shakes at the end of "The Core"), the episodes are pretty
much the way they've always been, save for the pristine picture
quality. As stated above, the versions Rhino has access to do not
have actual episode titles or end credits, so they had to recreate the
white-lettered titles from fan-donated screencaps.
As for the sound, the 5.1 mix is, once again horrible (crappy new
sounds and all), but the 2.0 mix contains the original audio (except
for "Changing Gears", "City of Steel", "Attack of the Autobots", and
"Traitor", which have the crappy 5.1 sound mix in 2.0, also).
So, aside from four episodes having a sound problem, this set is
excellent.
Before the season 2 part 2 DVD set was released, reliable sources
indicated that Rhino promised to correct the "5.1 mix on 2.0 track"
problem for future releases. Well, when season 2 part 2 was released,
I was horrified to discover that EVERY SINGLE EPISODE in the set has
the crappy 5.1 mix in 2.0. That's right, not a *SINGLE* episode in
season 2 part 2 has the original audio. Even the commercial bumpers
have sound effects (although they consist of a sampled "transforming"
sound effect that actually comes from the *series*, not a stock sound
library).
I was upset, to say the VERY least (if you define "upset" as "flying
into a rage and wanting to smash everything is sight...").
Aside from that little problem, the picture quality and historical
accuracy of the set is great. But, that one little problem has ruined
the set for me, and I can barely bring myself to watch those episodes
now. I hate it that much.
So now, season 3 parts 1 and 2 are on their way. Will Rhino repeat the
mistakes of the past? Will they learn that they don't have the *right*
to muck things up like this? Will the fans settle for an inferior
product, instead of the historically accurate, archival collection
that these DVDs *should* represent????
I'm wondering about the new Beast Wars DVD sets, which are in,
surprise, surprise, 5.1. Has Rhino chosen to ruin yet another great
series with crappy sound effects? Only time will tell.
If you feel as strongly as I do, please voice your concern by
e-mailing suggestions to Rhino at:
Anyone can make a difference. We deserve better.
- Gregatron, concerned fan.
Derik Smith
>repeat the mistakes of the past?
Oh yes, almost certainly.
Instead of flying into a rage about it, you should resort to the more
tried-and-true confrontational method- an facecious inquiry.
"Hey Dr. Rhino, My DVD set came with the 5.1 audio track ont he 2.0
channel, and the original 2.0 track completely missing, where do I send it to
get a corrected version like when the Transformers:Heroes disks went out with
the wrong contents?"
the prospect of fans demanding THAT might motivate them to correct the
problem on future disks.
-Derik
"You have zero talent. Give up writing." -Yuki Eiri, Gravitation
"Ebola is a horrible disease, one that EVEN homeopathy is powerless to
treat." -Isla9
Beat Mach Kicked Bucket
robo_rob
me. But yeah, the added explosions were pretty weird in the Season 2 set.
"Gregatron" <brund...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b360c78.03081...@posting.google.com...
TheHasselhoff
> This new sound mix is a travesty. For those fans who are unfamiliar
> with the series (as well as new fans who will be introduced to it via
> the DVD sets), this is a slap in the face.
> I was upset, to say the VERY least (if you define "upset" as "flying
> into a rage and wanting to smash everything is sight...").
Dude, you make it sound like Rhino killed somebody. You may not like
the new sound mix, but "a travesty"? "Flying into a rage"? IT'S A
CARTOON. Calm down.
> So now, season 3 parts 1 and 2 are on their way. Will Rhino repeat the
> mistakes of the past? Will they learn that they don't have the *right*
> to muck things up like this?
Um... never, because they DO have the right. Hasbro gave it to them.
> Will the fans settle for an inferior
> product, instead of the historically accurate, archival collection
> that these DVDs *should* represent????
Well, considering that the sets are selling so well that the BW series, and
possibly even the Japanese G1 series, are being released - I would say
the answer to your question is YES.
We are lucky to get DVDs of the episodes, at all. If Rhino hadn't taken
the chance on TFTM, it probably would have been years, if ever, before
the episodes came out. And, at least Rhino is TRYING. We could have
gotten some company that doesn't care about the material, and would just
take old FHE vhs copies and digitize them.
You talk as if the series truly deserves something more than its getting.
Again: it's a cartoon. It has a following but not THAT big of one. (Case
in
point: the DVDs are barely advertised in the weekly circulars when they
are released, and not put on sale - because they are specialty items, not
mainstream items.) I really like G1, but in the end, it's entertainment,
pure and simple.
Talking like this simply gives Hasbro one more reason to stop giving us
new products in the future. There are two ways to show Rhino you want
something different:
(1) POLITELY email them, with CONSTRUCTIVE criticizm.
(2) Don't buy their product.
Working yourself up like this only leads to anger. Anger leads to hate.
Hate leads to the dark side... like the GoBots or something.
ShingoEX
place...
Pyre
>>So now, season 3 parts 1 and 2 are on their way. Will Rhino repeat the
>>mistakes of the past? Will they learn that they don't have the *right*
>>to muck things up like this?
>
> Um... never, because they DO have the right. Hasbro gave it to them.
>
Yeah. To say they don't have the right is a little extreme. However,
there certainly is no NEED to add the unnecessary extra sounds. For some
reason Rhino has it in their head that in order to make a 5.1 mix they
need to add things to the audio which isn't true. They could have made a
very good 5.1 mix with the original audio elements. It's baffling that
they chose not too.
>
> And, at least Rhino is TRYING.
Yeah, but they could try a bit harder. From what I've read it sounds like
Zob had been helping out a good bit with the sets and it sounded like he
was trying to steer them in the right direction only for them to mess up
even worse on the last set they released even AFTER they had told him that
the problems would be corrected. Some of the choices they've made just
make no sense.
> We could have
> gotten some company that doesn't care about the material, and would just
> take old FHE vhs copies and digitize them.
Yeah, but at least then there wouldn't have been the amount of problems
that exist with the current sets. And as for them caring about the
material, the fact that they're aware of the problems and complaints about
their sets yet have no interest in fixing them suggests to me that they
don't really care much at all.
>
> You talk as if the series truly deserves something more than its getting.
I think it deserves to be presented in the manner that was intended.
Adding things to the show that shouldn't be there isn't doing that.
> Talking like this simply gives Hasbro one more reason to stop giving us
> new products in the future.
I agree with you here. Throwing fits about it doesn't help matters.
> There are two ways to show Rhino you want
> something different:
> (1) POLITELY email them, with CONSTRUCTIVE criticizm.
> (2) Don't buy their product.
I haven't done #1 but I've done #2, with the exception of the BW set,
which I've ordered but haven't gotten yet. I don't think the G1 sets
would be something I would watch much of anyway, but on the occasions that
I DO watch them, I wouldn't want to be distracted by something that
shouldn't be there like the unfinished footage in the season 1 set and the
added sounds in all the sets.
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"I feel my world shake, like an earthquake.
Hard to see clear. Is it me, is it fear?
Madly in Anger with you. I'm madly in anger with you."
TheHasselhoff
>
> Yeah, but they could try a bit harder.
And they could try a whole lot less, and still charge the same amount of
money. In my mind, we're very lucky.
> >
> > You talk as if the series truly deserves something more than its
getting.
>
> I think it deserves to be presented in the manner that was intended.
In that case, we shouldn't have these box sets at all. The series was never
intended to be releasedin a box set, let alone in a digital format.
Hotmissile
>Although the
>picture is much more colorful and detailed than what we were used to,
>the 35mm versions were, in some cases, incomplete (in other words,
>they had unfinished, incorrect and/or unpolished animation sequences
>that were fixed for the broadcast versions).
Hi,
Can you cite any examples of these errors? I bought the G1 season 1
boxset with almost no knowledge of the original cartoon (I live in the
UK and grew up with the comic instead), and I was definitely
disappointed with the animation quality in places. Now your message
leaves me wondering if I'm disappointed with the cartoon or
disappointed with Rhino.
Thanks,
Mic // Hotmissile
Jordan L Derber
Hotmissile <hotmi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Can you cite any examples of these errors? I bought the G1 season 1
>boxset with almost no knowledge of the original cartoon (I live in the
>UK and grew up with the comic instead), and I was definitely
>disappointed with the animation quality in places. Now your message
>leaves me wondering if I'm disappointed with the cartoon or
>disappointed with Rhino.
Did you import Rhino's set from the US or did you buy the UK-released
season 1 box set? If you bought the UK one then it doesn't have the
additional animation errors (but for some strange reason it has the added
sound effects). The individually released season one disks (the one that
have Optimus, Megatron, and Starscream's faces as cover art) from the UK
don't have the animation errors or the SFX, you might want to trade in the
box for those if you can.
--
Jordan Derber
e-mail: jsdst5 at pitt.edu
jsd_d305 at hotmail.com
Exatron
>> > And, at least Rhino is TRYING.
>>
>> Yeah, but they could try a bit harder.
>
> And they could try a whole lot less, and still charge the same amount
> of money. In my mind, we're very lucky.
That doesn't excuse Rhino's stupidity. It took more time and money to
introduce the new errors than it would have if the episodes had just
been left alone. Third and fourth generation VHS copies of some
episodes are better than the versions Rhino released. Rhino is barely
trying if we're getting DVD sets like Season 1 and Season 2, Part 2.
Most of the luck we've had with Rhino's DVD sets has been bad.
>> > You talk as if the series truly deserves something more than its
> getting.
>
>> I think it deserves to be presented in the manner that was intended.
>
> In that case, we shouldn't have these box sets at all. The series was
> never intended to be releasedin a box set, let alone in a digital
> format.
Naturally, you miss the point entirely. Rhino has a duty to ensure
that the episodes are as close to the original broadcast versions as
possible, especially considering the price of the sets and the extras.
Rhino has not been presenting the series as it was meant to be seen
and heard- the storage medium and existence of digital technology are
completely irrelevant.
--
Exatron
"Strive for perfection even if others must suffer." - Hook
The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
Hawk-Thorn
> Third and fourth generation VHS copies of some
> episodes are better than the versions Rhino released.
Well... that's a nice rational statement... good god... some of you
really are quite confused...
> Rhino is barely
> trying if we're getting DVD sets like Season 1 and Season 2, Part 2.
*shakes head* Yes... because just bunging the VHS crap-quality over to
DVD would have been "really trying"
> Most of the luck we've had with Rhino's DVD sets has been bad.
Most of the luck YOU'VE had... I think the Rhino sets are friggin'
fantastic... yeah - new sounds and all.
> Naturally, you miss the point entirely. Rhino has a duty to ensure
> that the episodes are as close to the original broadcast versions as
> possible,
?! What world do you live in, man?! "duty"?! LOL! No - Rhino has a
"duty" to sell as many of the sets as possible - and if they think
having higher-than-VHS quality and some sounds that allow them the DD
5.1 tag on it will sell more (and make no mistake - it will)- then
that's what they will/should do.
...you "Rhino Sucks" guys really need to get over this...
-HT-
Pyre
>
> some sounds that allow them the DD
> 5.1 tag on it
They don't need to add extra sounds in order to make it 5.1 Look at the
ST:TNG sets and DS9 sets. The audio on them is in 5.1. Did they add
extra sounds in order to do this? NO! There was absolutely no reason at
all for Rhino to add those sounds. None whatsoever.
>
>
> ...you "Rhino Sucks" guys really need to get over this...
Yes. We should all accept an inferior product and keep our mouths shut.
*shakes head*
Let's look at it this way. You go to McDonalds and order a Big Mac. When
you get your food and sit down to eat it you find a bug in your burger.
Do you take it back and complain or do you just accept it and eat it anyway?
Exatron
> Exatron wrote:
>
>> Third and fourth generation VHS copies of some episodes are better
>> than the versions Rhino released.
>
> Well... that's a nice rational statement...
Thanks. It is a quite sound argument. At least old VHS copies won't
have new animation errors and "l337" sound effects that don't belong
in the episodes.
> good god... some of you
> really are quite confused...
I'm not confused at all. Rhino released an inferior product and
should be held accountable for it.
>> Naturally, you miss the point entirely. Rhino has a duty to ensure
>> that the episodes are as close to the original broadcast versions
>> as possible,
>
> ?! What world do you live in, man?!
Apparantly, one where people care about the quality of the goods they
buy.
> "duty"?! LOL! No - Rhino has a "duty" to sell as many of the sets
> as possible
No, Rhino has an obligation to release the series properly. New sound
effects aren't necessary for a 5.1 audio track, the presence of which
wouldn't affect sales at all.
> - and if they think
> having higher-than-VHS quality and some sounds that allow them the
> DD 5.1 tag on it will sell more (and make no mistake - it will)
You're delusional, aren't you?
- then
> that's what they will/should do.
No, what they should do is leave the audio alone
> ...you "Rhino Sucks" guys really need to get over this...
You complacent morons should stop accepting whatever crap people hand
out. Rhino undeniably did a bad job releasing the series on DVD.
Ethan Hammond
>
> Let's look at it this way. You go to McDonalds and order a Big Mac. When
> you get your food and sit down to eat it you find a bug in your burger.
> Do you take it back and complain or do you just accept it and eat it
anyway?
The bug is probably better for you than anything in the burger.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Hotmissile
inspection, isn't actually released by Rhino, but by Maverick. Doh.
I've only watched up to the end of "The Ultimate Doom" at the
moment, and I haven't really had any problems with the sound (but I
don't remember the original, so I may be missing stuff), so I'll prob
stick with this.
Unf, since the animation is unfiddled, this means I'm unimpressed
with the cartoon, rather than Rhino. Damn.
Mic // Hotmissile
Soundwave says "I am a rock, I am an island."
jsd...@unixs1.cis.pitt.edu (Jordan L Derber) said what!?:
TheHasselhoff
> That doesn't excuse Rhino's stupidity.
1) Rhino isn't being stupid. If people didn't like (or at least withstand)
the new sounds,
then these box sets wouldn't be selling well. You are in the minority,
here.
2) Even if they are being stupid, its their right. They own their company,
they can
produce the product any way they want. Hasbro obviously has no problems
with the
sound.
> Third and fourth generation VHS copies of some
> episodes are better than the versions Rhino released.
Um... while we're on the topic of stupidity....
> Naturally, you miss the point entirely. Rhino has a duty
1) I didn't miss the point, I rebutted the statement perfectly.
2) Rhino has NO duty, besides one to its employees and owners to make money.
Creating a DVD is not some "sacred ritual", they can do what they want.
As I stated earlier in this thread, making wild and attacking accusations
here in the
forum will not get what you want. You need to contact Rhino and POLITELY
explain
your point, and leave the "holier-than-thou" attitude out of it. And if
nothing comes
from it, you need to just NOT buy the product.
Point Blank
>introduce the new errors than it would have if the episodes had just
>been left alone. Third and fourth generation VHS copies of some
>episodes are better than the versions Rhino released. Rhino is barely
>trying if we're getting DVD sets
>Most of the luck we've had with Rhino's DVD sets has been bad.
>
Alright, I'm sure I've missed something. What is that you actually find wronge
witht eh DVD sets? I so far have them all and can't find anything amiss about
them. Help me out here, unless you are in fact just bitching to see your own
text.
-Hypertron (an almost, sort of, kind of god)
edicius
initial post (which I can't see at all), I'll try and edit it down to
the simple points to get my view across. Let's try this again...
---
A travesty? That's overreacting.
I work in video production and in all honesty, the sound mix just
doesn't bother me. Maybe it's the way I have my receiver settings
configured or what not or maybe things like this don't phase me, but
it certainly didn't make me want to fly into a rage.
When it comes down to it, I'm simply happy to be able to watch the old
G1 eps whenever I want on DVD. I would think any old school TF fan
would easily share this sentiment. I bought the TF:2010 LD set years
ago because I *never* thought Transformers would see DVD releases. I
don't think any of us really did. And now that we have them, all we
can do is complain about them? This is like waiting 17 years for
Unicron to come out and complaining that you don't like his color
scheme, there's too much rubber, they didn't get his body right, etc.
We should be thankful that we're currently experiencing a TF
renaissance at all, good or, in some viewpoints, bad. Would you rather
have TF DVDs with an imperfect sound mix...or none at all? It's not a
tough choice for me.
---
Valid points, yes. Flaming or insulting, not at all. Mind you, I
edited out my little remark that included Wheelie doing something not
so nice to a family member. Creates an interesting visual though. :)
---
+kevin.wojtaszek+ (edicius)
http://www.edicius.org
e-mail: edicius(at)edicius(dot)org
---
"I have yet to see any problem, however complicated,
which, when you looked at it in the right way, did not
become still more complicated." -- Poul Anderson
"Eat a live toad first thing in the morning and nothing
worse will happen to you the rest of the day." ? Unknown
---
Grainne Gillespie
withstand)
> the new sounds,
> then these box sets wouldn't be selling well. You are in the minority,
> here.
Slight problem with that statement. People don't know whether they like the
new sounds or not until they actually hear them and in a lot of cases to
hear them one has to actually buy the DVD and bring it home in order to hear
them.
Most of the video/DVD stores around here will NOT let you check out the
merchandise before buying it
Hawk-Thorn
>
> Thanks. It is a quite sound argument. At least old VHS copies won't
> have new animation errors and "l337" sound effects that don't belong
> in the episodes.
..yeah. They would just be 100% crap as opposed to 15% crap. Nice
trade off.
> I'm not confused at all. Rhino released an inferior product and
> should be held accountable for it.
...I'm sure you meant to say "In my opinion".
> Rhino has an obligation to release the series properly.
Again... an obligation to WHO? Based on WHAT? This obligation - is it
written down in some legal document somewhere?
Please...."obligation" - to "properly" present a 20 year old extended
series of toy commercials... dude - lay off the crack - that stuff is no
good for ya...
> You're delusional, aren't you?
Hmmmm... you're the one talking about how the discs are completely
messed up - and how Rhino has some "obligation" to present these shows
the way YOU proclaim is the "right" way... Yeah... delusional
definitely applies to this exchange...
> No, what they should do is leave the audio alone
No... what they *should* do is have the 5.1 new sound mix and leave the
original sound on a separate audio track - a'la most(?) of the S1
episodes.
> You complacent morons should stop accepting whatever crap people hand
> out.
...and there it is. The resort to name calling... "Complacent morons"
indeed... "Our" opinions differ from yours so we must be idiots... Very
nice...
(I know I've "won" an argument when this is the comeback to one of my
posts...)
> Rhino undeniably did a bad job releasing the series on DVD.
Oh... maybe you meant to say "IMO" here, then....
-HT-
Exatron
> Alright, I'm sure I've missed something. What is that you actually
> find wronge witht eh DVD sets? I so far have them all and can't find
> anything amiss about them. Help me out here, unless you are in fact
> just bitching to see your own text.
I dislike the obnoxious new sound effects sloppily dumped into the
stereo audio tracks of several episodes. I haven't even seen some of
these episodes in years and the changes stand out like a clown at a
funeral.
--
Exatron
"The least likely can be the most dangerous." - Bumblebee
Exatron
> 2) Even if they are being stupid, its their right.
No, it isn't their right at all. Transformers is not their work and
they have no right to mess with it.
> They own their
> company, they can
> produce the product any way they want.
No, they are expected to release a product that's free of significant
defects.
> Hasbro obviously has no problems with the sound.
You've asked Hasbro then? From what I've read Hasbro has essentially
no say in the matter and has not made its opinion known.
>> Third and fourth generation VHS copies of some episodes are better
>> than the versions Rhino released.
>
> Um... while we're on the topic of stupidity....
Yes, we all know about your mental deficiency. You don't have to keep
demonstrating it. VHS copies may have lower resolution overall, but
at least the sound and video are closer to what their creators
intended than Rhino's versions.
>> Naturally, you miss the point entirely. Rhino has a duty
>
> 1) I didn't miss the point, I rebutted the statement perfectly. 2)
> Rhino has NO duty, besides one to its employees and owners to make
> money
No, they have an obligation to producea product free of defects and
failed to do so.
> Creating a DVD is not some "sacred ritual", they can do what they
> want.
They most certainly can not. It isn't their work to alter.
> As I stated earlier in this thread, making wild and attacking
> accusations here in the
> forum will not get what you want.
I haven't made a single "wild" attack or accusation. I merely expect
the goods I buy to be free of defects, especially when the company
responsible for the items in question is aware of the problem and says
that it won't do it again.
--
Exatron
"Unyielding resolve has no conqueror." - Omega Supreme
Exatron
> Exatron wrote:
>>
>> Thanks. It is a quite sound argument. At least old VHS copies
>> won't have new animation errors and "l337" sound effects that don't
>> belong in the episodes.
>
> ..yeah. They would just be 100% crap as opposed to 15% crap. Nice
> trade off.
Math isn't your strong point, is it? Not that throwing out statistics
without explaining your methods for acquiring them helps your argument.
>> I'm not confused at all. Rhino released an inferior product and
>> should be held accountable for it.
>
> ...I'm sure you meant to say "In my opinion".
Not at all. Rhino had the ability to release a product that was
essentially free of defects and instead they spent time and money
adding things that don't belong there. They even pointed out where
they made their version less like the broadcast versions.
>> Rhino has an obligation to release the series properly.
>
> Again... an obligation to WHO?
Paying customers, the people who made the episodes... (and it would be
to *whom*, btw)
> Based on WHAT? This obligation - is it written down in some legal
> document somewhere?
That depends on what the contract that gives them distribution rights
looks like, which neither of us are privy to. Rhino is messing with
someone else's work.
> Please...."obligation" - to "properly" present a 20 year old
> extended series of toy commercials... dude - lay off the crack -
> that stuff is no good for ya...
Just because you find an inferior product acceptable, doesn't mean
that it's actually good.
>> You're delusional, aren't you?
>
> Hmmmm... you're the one talking about how the discs are completely
> messed up - and how Rhino has some "obligation" to present these
> shows the way YOU proclaim is the "right" way... Yeah... delusional
> definitely applies to this exchange...
They do have an obligation to present the episodes as they were when
their creators made them. Rhino didn't make the series and has no
right to mess with it. It isn't a matter of the episodes not being
presented in a way I deem appropriate, how the episodes were supposed
to look and sound were established when they aired.
>> No, what they should do is leave the audio alone
>
> No... what they *should* do is have the 5.1 new sound mix and leave
> the original sound on a separate audio track - a'la most(?) of the
> S1 episodes.
Which is what they failed to do. I don't care what they do to the 5.1
audio track as long as they leave the stereo track alone. I wouldn't
have even cared if only one disc in each set had that problem, but
Rhino lied when telling fans that they would leave the season 2, part
2 set's stereo tracks alone.
>> You complacent morons should stop accepting whatever crap people
>> hand out.
>
> ...and there it is. The resort to name calling... "Complacent
> morons" indeed... "Our" opinions differ from yours so we must be
> idiots... Very nice...
No, it's not a matter of opinion. Would you buy a remasterd version
of a classic Beatles album if the distirbution company decided to add
new instruments at random and new vocals by Brittney Speares? No,
because it messes with somebody elses work.
> (I know I've "won" an argument when this is the comeback to one of
> my
If by "won", you mean lost, then yes.
>> Rhino undeniably did a bad job releasing the series on DVD.
>
> Oh... maybe you meant to say "IMO" here, then....
No, making something less like its creator's intentions is doing a bad
job. We have an objective standard for comparison in the form of the
countless copies of the episodes that have been released on VHS or
recorded off of TV by fans, not to mention the broadcast masters which
Rhino had access to.
--
Exatron
"Be unyielding as the ocean waves and your enemies will fall." - Seaspray
Pyre
>
> Slight problem with that statement. People don't know whether they like the
> new sounds or not until they actually hear them and in a lot of cases to
> hear them one has to actually buy the DVD and bring it home in order to hear
> them.
Good point. I would like to add that I imagine the majority of the people
that are buying these sets don't know that there's anything wrong to begin
with. They're working off of fuzzy childhood memories whereas the rest of
us who have been in the fandom a while and have copies of these episodes
from the original broadcasts can figure out where things have been screwed
with. My whole point in this matter is that there's no reason at all to
be adding these sounds. If they want to create a 5.1 mix then, by all
means do so, but there's no need to add new sounds to be able to do this.
The fact that they continue to think that that is the case leads me to
believe that Rhino has no idea what they're doing or at least whoever is
creating these mixes for them have no idea what they're doing.
David Minter
>Well, now. Here we are, with Rhino's G1 season 3 DVD set approaching.
>
>If you feel as strongly as I do, please voice your concern by
>e-mailing suggestions to Rhino at:
>
>drr...@rhino.com
I have done that in the past, and, for season 3, I'll probably
also protest with my wallet. After the disappointing Season 1 set, I
waited on the 1st Season 2 set. After the reports came out that there
were hardly any errors on it, I gave it a shot, and, sure enough, the
set was much better. So, I got suckered into buying the 2nd set. I
don't think I'll do it anymore. I'll just stick with my old plan,
converting my old VHS tapes, including the error ridden Rhino VHS
releases, to DVD with the Panasonic DMR recorders
David Minter
>Let's look at it this way. You go to McDonalds and order a Big Mac. When
>you get your food and sit down to eat it you find a bug in your burger.
>Do you take it back and complain or do you just accept it and eat it anyway?
The food analogy above bears closer examination. Because, it
actually has happened before in the past. Remember New Coke? Coca
Cola changed the formula that had worked for 100 years and replaced
the old one with this new one, without giving anyone a choice. People
complained because New Coke was terrible, plain and simple. So, old
Coke comes back.
Now, anyone want to guess, as Rhino has already done with the
G.I. Joe mini-series discs, they'll double dip the Transformers DVD's
in the future and release them with corrected audio? Think you'll
have the chance to exchange your old set? Nope, they'll add some new
extras or something fundamentally different enough to legally
distinguish it from the previous sets.
Pyre
>
> Now, anyone want to guess, as Rhino has already done with the
> G.I. Joe mini-series discs, they'll double dip the Transformers DVD's
> in the future and release them with corrected audio?
I'd heard that the fist set of GIJoe discs (the one released without the
Snake Eyes figure) had the same audio problems that the TF sets have had.
I haven't heard anyone talk about the new set though. DID they fix the
audio problem? Circuit City here has that set and I didn't pick it up
because of the reported problems with the previous set. If they did fix
the audio then I might reconsider.
David Minter
>I'd heard that the fist set of GIJoe discs (the one released without the
>Snake Eyes figure) had the same audio problems that the TF sets have had.
> I haven't heard anyone talk about the new set though. DID they fix the
>audio problem? Circuit City here has that set and I didn't pick it up
>because of the reported problems with the previous set. If they did fix
>the audio then I might reconsider.
I waited on buying the first set because I heard they were going
to make a new set with interviews with Ron Friedman and others. But,
I did get the 2nd set, and, yes, they replaced the original sounds
entirely. All new dialog drowners, with no choice for the original
sounds. On the plus side, though, the interviews are quite fun.
Gregatron
> > > And, at least Rhino is TRYING.
> >
> > Yeah, but they could try a bit harder.
>
> And they could try a whole lot less, and still charge the same amount of
> money. In my mind, we're very lucky.
>
>
If they'd tried less, then they'd have used the 1" broadcast masters
we all know and love, without a 5.1 surround track. If they'd tried
less to "fix" the episodes and their seemingly "incomplete"
soundtracks, then I'd be happy.
- Gregatron
Gregatron
> Hawk-Thorn wrote:
> >
> > some sounds that allow them the DD
> > 5.1 tag on it
>
> They don't need to add extra sounds in order to make it 5.1 Look at the
> ST:TNG sets and DS9 sets. The audio on them is in 5.1. Did they add
> extra sounds in order to do this? NO! There was absolutely no reason at
> all for Rhino to add those sounds. None whatsoever.
>
Zob has theorized that the sounds were added because they were somehow
necessary to maintain that prescious Dolby Digital label. I dunno.
- Gregatron
Gregatron
From what I've heard, both versions of the GI JOE mini-series set have
the same audio (that's right, crappy 5.1 track on 2.0). Thus, GI JOE
is next on the "audio hit list". Why, I ask? WHY???
- Gregatron
Gregatron
Of course, the series is riddled with animation errors. But the
versions Rhino used are even *more* incomplete and error-ridden. Here
are a few examples:
In "Heavy Metal War", when the Autobots arrive for the Prime-Megatron
duel, they transform from vehicle mode to robot mode. In the version
Rhino used (corrected for the original broadcast), some now transform
from robot mode to vehicle mode, which makes no sense at all (because
the shots were accidentally animated backwards, but were later fixed).
In the broadcast version of "S.O.S. Dinobots", Wheeljack and Ratchet
order the Dinobots to "clean up that rubble". They then blast it, and
it turns white and disintegrates. In the unfinished version seen on
the Rhino DVD, the laser blasts are missing and the rubble just sits
there (althougg we can still hear it being disintegrated). For first
time viewers, this makes *no* sense.
During the Prime-Megatron duel in "Heavy Metal War", Megatron
teleports to avoid a boulder Prime tosses at him. In the Rhino DVD
version, he glows but no longer disappears, making it seem as if the
boulder actually hits him!
- Gregatron
Gregatron
Huh? The 12 VHS volumes (as well as the Heroes and Villains VHS tapes)
released by Rhino are identical to the original versions (except the
season 2 eps are missing their white-lettered episode titles). In the
beginning, I loved Rhino's VHS work with the series. Even the Heroes
and Villains DVDs were great. When the box sets started, though,
things went downhill.
- Gregatron
Downtown Torpedo
episodes tend to look unfinished and unpolished, Heavy Metal War being
the most egregious example, of course. The animation just looks
incredibly shoddy; I much preferred digging out my old Generation 2
tapes and watching the episodes that way.
The Season 2, Part 1 boxset, however, is just about flawless, in my
opinion. It more than does justice to the episodes in terms of picture
and sound quality. (I'll admit I hardly notice the new remixed sound).
The CGI menu far outranks the crude animation from the first boxset,
and the extras, while fewer, are much more interesting. Michael
McConnohie and especially Neil Kaplan are fascinating interviews,
while the Taste of Botcon 2002 featurette is presented in a much more
professional and organized manner than the Botcon 2001 featurette from
the first boxset.
Flame the Season 1 DVD boxset, and rightfully so. But reserve praise
for the Season 2, Part 1 set - it rocks. I haven't picked up the Part
2 boxset, but if it's as good (anybody?), I'm all over it like pink on
energon.
TheHasselhoff
>
> Not at all. Rhino had the ability to release a product that was
> essentially free of defects and instead they spent time and money
> adding things that don't belong there. They even pointed out where
> they made their version less like the broadcast versions.
You still don't get it - the word "inferior" is a subjective term. I,
*personally*, find the DVD boxsets of superior quality to any other versions
of the episodes released so far. Could they be better? Sure. But I still
think that they're the best we've gotten yet.
> > Again... an obligation to WHO?
>
> Paying customers, the people who made the episodes... (and it would be
> to *whom*, btw)
1) The customers? If the customer hadn't liked the first boxset, they
surely wouldn't have bought the next two. The majority of customers find
the sets to be fine (otherwise, they wouldn't come back for more).
2) Rhino doesn't have an "obligation" to the customers - they can produce
anything they want, as long as Hasbro approves.
3) "The people who made the episodes"? You mean the ones who wrote the
series for five-year-olds, and the ones who let animation errors get into
both the original and aired versions of the episodes?
Why do you keep making it sound like the creation of a DVD is some kind of
"sacred duty" that Rhino has been entrusted with? IT'S A CARTOON. That's
all it is. We may all really like it, but it's still just a cartoon.
> > Based on WHAT? This obligation - is it written down in some legal
> > document somewhere?
>
> That depends on what the contract that gives them distribution rights
> looks like, which neither of us are privy to. Rhino is messing with
> someone else's work.
By your terms, then, EVERY company that creates a DVD is "messing with
someone else's work". Every one of them has to, but the format's nature,
create a new print version of the material in a digital format. They create
chapters that the original makers may not agree with. Etc, etc, etc.
Ultimately, this is Hasbro's property. If they didn't like the sets, they
wouldn't be on store shelves.
> Just because you find an inferior product acceptable, doesn't mean
> that it's actually good.
No, but just because YOU have decided the product is inferior, does not make
it so. For some reason, you have decided that your opinions are now facts.
> They do have an obligation to present the episodes as they were when
> their creators made them.
NO THEY DON'T. Again, the ONLY obligations they have are:
1) to Hasbro, who owns the property;
2) Rhino's owners, who have a stake in whether the company makes money or
not.
If the creators of the series cared so much about it, they should have
bought the rights from Hasbro and released the episodes themselves. America
is capitalistic, not socialistic.
> Rhino didn't make the series and has no
> right to mess with it.
YES THEY DO... Hasbro gave it to them.
> No, it's not a matter of opinion. Would you buy a remasterd version
> of a classic Beatles album if the distirbution company decided to add
> new instruments at random and new vocals by Brittney Speares? No,
> because it messes with somebody elses work.
NO, your analogy does not work.
1) It would only work if this was, basically, the ONLY version of the
Beatles album available, besides taping it off the radio 15 years ago. Many
of the S2 episodes were never released, in any form, here in the US - and
NONE of them have been released in DVD before now.
2) The "new vocals" is ridiculous - unless I missed the times when Peter
Cullen laid down new dialogue for the episodes or something. Plus, the "new
instruments" would have to add up to about a dozen new notes during the
entire song.
Please, don't use analogies if they don't apply. It simply makes your
argument look weak.
> No, making something less like its creator's intentions is doing a bad
> job.
You need to go read the DVDTalk forums more. MANY people don't care about
the "creator's intentions". OAR, scene selection, etc. are all issues that
some (yes, SOME) people believe must be exactly like what the creator
wanted.
BTW, how do YOU know what the creators of the series wanted? Many, many
times, the version of the material shown on TV or at the movies is NOT the
original, intended version of the material - the studios change things
without the creator's authorization all the time.
So, until the Sunbow production team at the time makes a statement, your
"creator's intention" theory is simply conjecture.
> We have an objective standard
NO, WE DON'T. Read my statement above - we have what Hasbro wanted to be
put out on TV, not necessarily what the creators wanted. If you would
actually WATCH the interviews on the S2 sets, you'd find out that what the
creators wanted to do didn't really matter - Hasbro forced them to use
certain characters, and stop using others. They decided whether the stories
worked or not, if the characters were being displayed in the correct light,
etc.
So, again, how do YOU know what the creator's intentions were? They never
made a statement concerning it, so unless they are all your friends....
TheHasselhoff
There would be if only 1 boxset had been released. If you don't like Volume
1, why pick up Volumes 2&3? "Maybe they fixed it"? You're simply not going
to spend all that money on future volumes if you don't have something that
says they fixed whatever you don't like.
I realize Rhino supposedly put out some statement that they were going to
take out the sound effects, but if you dislike the effects so much -
wouldn't you wait for a review before spending that kind of money?
Fool you once, shame on Rhino - fool you twice, shame on you.
> People don't know whether they like the
> new sounds or not until they actually hear them and in a lot of cases to
> hear them one has to actually buy the DVD and bring it home in order to
hear
> them.
> Most of the video/DVD stores around here will NOT let you check out the
> merchandise before buying it
Of course. But, that doesn't explain why all 3 boxsets so far have sold
well. If you don't like Volume 1, then you'll probably return Volumes 2 & 3
without opening them (or not buy them at all). However, sales have remained
so strong that Rhino is now looking for new source material to release.
TheHasselhoff
people
> that are buying these sets don't know that there's anything wrong to begin
> with. They're working off of fuzzy childhood memories whereas the rest of
> us who have been in the fandom a while and have copies of these episodes
> from the original broadcasts can figure out where things have been screwed
> with. My whole point in this matter is
... flawed. In fact, you just proved MY point. Most people buying these
sets DO NOT vividly remember the show. The sound is no issue - it sounds
fine to them, and they don't know it used to be different.
In fact, this is a VERY big point, so everybody listen up:
The fans here on ATT are NOT the majority of TF fans in America, or in the
world.
Yes, you must accept that you are in the minority, by being an ATTer.
Unless you think hundreds of thousands of people are lurking around here....
Galenraff
S1 DVD that shows the differences between what was broadcast and what
appears on the discs. Rhino knew darn well about each and every
animation error they have on their discs, because they documented them
and tossed them in as an extra.
This leads me to believe that there must be *SOME* valid reason for
this. They must've used the master tapes instead of broadcasts for a
reason, that is. Were the broadcast tapes too deteriorated/damaged
since they were last used, maybe?
Now the audio, I dunno about that. Sure, they may think it's "kewL"
or something. But the theory about having to have separate channeling
to get the trademarked dolby digital/surround or whatever label may
have some credence.
It'd be nice if someone in Rhino actually stepped forth to explain
this. Right or wrong, I'd just like to hear their reasoning behind
this, because right now we just have our own speculations and theories
about their cruelties/incompetencies/whatever. They must've made
these changes for particular reasons...we just don't know what those
reasons are.
-----------Galenraff-------------
Other Minicon names that could go backwards just
like Overrun becoming Run-Over?
1-Leader, Wayrun, Armlong, Master-zap, Logwater,
Jetram, Outblack, Agewreck, and Plugspark.
TheHasselhoff
> they have no right to mess with it.
But it IS Hasbro's right, and they gave it to Rhino. So, yes is IS Rhino's
right to do what they will. They don't have to answer to you - they have to
answer to Hasbro, and to there sales figures.
> No, they are expected to release a product that's free of significant
> defects.
And if Hasbro FOUND significant defects, they wouldn't allow Rhino to keep
making the product that way.
> You've asked Hasbro then? From what I've read Hasbro has essentially
> no say in the matter and has not made its opinion known.
1) "No say in the matter"? THEY OWN THE PROPERTY. They have the ONLY say
in the matter, ultimately. Think before you type, next time.
2) Hasbro HAS made their opinion known - by allowing Rhino to continue. If
they didn't like the product, they'd pull the plug.
> > Um... while we're on the topic of stupidity....
>
> Yes, we all know about your mental deficiency. You don't have to keep
> demonstrating it. VHS copies may have lower resolution overall, but
> at least the sound and video are closer to what their creators
> intended than Rhino's versions.
1) You need to read another post I just made about the supposed "creators
intentions".
2) When I used the term "stupidity", it was in reference to a statement that
was made. Resorting to calling me "mentally deficient" simply shows that
you know you're losing the debate.
> No, they have an obligation to producea product free of defects and
> failed to do so.
IN YOUR OPINION. BTW, have you talked to "the creators" recently? How do
you know they didn't WANT extra effects like this, and Hasbro at the time
made them cut the extra sounds out? You don't - so stop making assumptions
in the holier-than-thou name of the "creator's intentions".
> > Creating a DVD is not some "sacred ritual", they can do what they
> > want.
>
> They most certainly can not. It isn't their work to alter.
Again - its Hasbro's work. But since Hasbro gave Rhino the license, that
means Rhino DOES have the right.
> I haven't made a single "wild" attack or accusation. I merely expect
> the goods I buy to be free of defects, especially when the company
> responsible for the items in question is aware of the problem and says
> that it won't do it again.
1) Yes, you have made wild accusations. You've decided, all on your own,
that the added sound effects constitute a "defect".
2) Again, if you don't like their product, don't buy it anymore. But, don't
try to turn this into some kind of "holy war" against Rhino, like they've
broken a sacred trust, or something. The only way to make a company listen
to your concerns is by causing their profits to go down - not spouting off a
tirade on a newsgroup that a minority of buyers read.
TheHasselhoff
> If they'd tried less, then they'd have used the 1" broadcast masters
> we all know and love,
You need to STOP speaking for everyone. I, personally, LIKE the masters
they used - they are of much better visual quality than the broadcast
masters. And, obviously, many people agree with me - because they kept
buying the sets as they came out. So get OFF your soapbox and stop acting
like you know what we are all thinking.
TheHasselhoff
> versions Rhino used are even *more* incomplete and error-ridden.
Do you understand what you just said? You just admitted that your precious
"broadcast" versions of the episodes have errors in them. Do you think that
the creators "intended" to have those errors in there? If so, that's sad -
if not, then your "creator's intentions" argument just got blown out of the
water.
David Minter
>David Minter <dmi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<s4k3kvsj55omufrlp...@4ax.com>...
>> I have done that in the past, and, for season 3, I'll probably
>> also protest with my wallet. After the disappointing Season 1 set, I
>> waited on the 1st Season 2 set. After the reports came out that there
>> were hardly any errors on it, I gave it a shot, and, sure enough, the
>> set was much better. So, I got suckered into buying the 2nd set. I
>> don't think I'll do it anymore. I'll just stick with my old plan,
>> converting my old VHS tapes, including the error ridden Rhino VHS
>> releases, to DVD with the Panasonic DMR recorders
>Huh? The 12 VHS volumes (as well as the Heroes and Villains VHS tapes)
>released by Rhino are identical to the original versions (except the
>season 2 eps are missing their white-lettered episode titles).
FAR more than that. Episodes have incorrect season openings.
Some are missing closing credits. Some have incorrect season closing
credits. Many are missing the titles, as you mentioned, but some are
even missing the closing titles, even though the animation is there.
"Forever Is A Long Time Coming" inexplicably has a scene removed, but,
the sound is still there, replaced with another shot.
Interestingly enough, I talked with Paul Davids at BotCon 2001
about this. My boxed set which contained Grimlock The Hero had a
damaged copy of that tape. That somehow came up when I got it
autographed. So, he jokingly said to get another boxed set. Then, I
brought up all the errors in the sets. He said he'd try and see if
Rhino would do a better job on them in the future. Don't know if he
did contact them, or if he even had any say on the property as far as
Rhino went. But, if he did contact them, they sure didn't do much to
up the quality control until Season 2-1... then, inexplicably, dropped
the QC with 2-2.
Now, Rhino HAS proven in the past they know how to handle DVD
releases. The Heroes and Villains discs, once they got them right,
didn't have fancy sound changes. None done to the TF and Joe movies.
The original audio was kept in Battle Of The Planets.
TheHasselhoff
> also protest with my wallet.
See, everybody, here's a person who knows what to do. He doesn't like the
product, so he won't buy it anymore.
David Minter
>I agree that the Season 1 boxset leaves much to be desired. The
>episodes tend to look unfinished and unpolished, Heavy Metal War being
>the most egregious example, of course. The animation just looks
>incredibly shoddy
When I noticed what I thought was a new error on the DVD release
of that episode, I compared it with the VHS release Rhino had done. I
once posted a listing of my findings here. If I remember correctly,
there were at least 20 differences between Rhino's VHS and DVD
releases. I could be a bit more forgiving if Rhino hadn't released
the VHS themselves. But, since they did, it's just shoddy that they
didn't compare the corrected animation they did against the VHS they
released. Looks like they left most of the animation correction up to
computers.
Steve-o Stonebraker
>> If they'd tried less, then they'd have used the 1" broadcast masters
>> we all know and love,
>
> You need to STOP speaking for everyone. I, personally, LIKE the masters
> they used - they are of much better visual quality than the broadcast
> masters. And, obviously, many people agree with me - because they kept
> buying the sets as they came out.
Well, now you're making assumptions, too. I've kept buying the sets, but
I am most definitely upset about the sound effects and other
content-changes that they've introduced. The new masters are indeed
clearer and more vivid, but it's not a tradeoff I'm satisfied with.
Despite this, I buy the sets because it's my only opportunity to get the
eps on DVD, even in a form that I consider lacking.
--Steve-o
--
Steve Stonebraker | http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/
sst...@yahoo.com | Transformers, astrophysics, comics, games, cartoons.
Elc
> > You've asked Hasbro then? From what I've read Hasbro has essentially
> > no say in the matter and has not made its opinion known.
>
> 1) "No say in the matter"? THEY OWN THE PROPERTY. They have the ONLY say
> in the matter, ultimately. Think before you type, next time.
Sorry, but it IS within the realm of possibility that Hasbro doesn't have a say
in the matter. When Mainframe liscenced out the distribution rights to release
episodes of the first two seasons of ReBoot on Home Video, they were locked into
a 10 year contract and could do absolutely *nothing* unless they bought back the
rights, which was not financially feasible.
I'm not familiar with the specifics, but the same is most likely true with the
Hasbro/Rhino situation. Rhino owns the distribution rights to Transformers for
however long their contract is, and unless both parties agree, Hasbro cannot get
those rights back until their contract expires.
Pyre
> Now the audio, I dunno about that. Sure, they may think it's "kewL"
> or something. But the theory about having to have separate channeling
> to get the trademarked dolby digital/surround or whatever label may
> have some credence.
Likely so, yes. But that doesn't explain why they felt the need to ADD
things that didn't belong. You can create a 5.1 mix without adding
unnecessary sounds to the audio. Just look at the various other DVDs that
have been released with a 5.1 mix that didn't previously exist. The
original Nightmare on Elm Street or Terminator are good examples as well
as the Star Trek:Next Generation DVDs.
Pyre
>
> And, obviously, many people agree with me - because they kept
> buying the sets as they came out.
Because they stopped using the incomplete footage with the following sets
so there wasn't a problem. The only problem left is with the audio.
TheHasselhoff
> Because they stopped using the incomplete footage with the following sets
> so there wasn't a problem. The only problem left is with the audio.
But, if that supposed "problem" is such a big deal, then why do people keep
buying the sets as they come out? That doesn't make sense.
TheHasselhoff
them? That's like buying a car because it gets great gas mileage, but you
don't drive it because its too uncomfortable to sit in.
Personally, if you dislike them that much, I think you should save your
money (since you're not enjoying the sets now anyway, why spend money on
them?), and wait for the inevitable HD-DVD release a few years from now,
where Rhino might change things for you.
Pyre
>
> But, if that supposed "problem" is such a big deal, then why do people keep
> buying the sets as they come out? That doesn't make sense.
>
*shrug* Lots of things in life don't make sense. I imagine there ARE
some people, such as your self, that can tolerate or actually enjoy the
new sounds. I also imagine there are allot MORE people that are just
ignorant to the fact that those sounds don't belong, thus it's not an
issue for them. Then there's people like Steve-O who are buying them
because there's just no other alternative available to them. I wouldn't
care if Rhino would just be consistent with it. There's absolutely no
reason for the sounds to be there. AT ALL. But if they're going to be
adding them, at least leave the 2.0 track untouched as they've promised.
They should have people QCing these sets so that they can make sure
they're putting out the best product they can.
Pyre
> That doesn't make sense. You buy the boxsets, but ultimately you don't like
> them?
If he wants the series on DVD, then he has no choice, which was his point.
>
> and wait for the inevitable HD-DVD release a few years from now,
> where Rhino might change things for you.
>
There's no guaranty that they'll do that and even if they do, there's no
guaranty that they'll fix the problems either. They apparently didn't
with the second version of the GIJoe DVDs.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> That doesn't make sense. You buy the boxsets, but ultimately you don't like
> them?
Huh? I don't believe that's what I said...
::goes back and reads last post::
Nope, definitely did not say that. Not even close. I am very
disappointed by the sound effects and added bloopers. Obviously the sets
are still worth the purchase price to me. This is primarily because I
want to have a complete set of episodes that I can watch whenever I like.
> That's like buying a car because it gets great gas mileage, but you
> don't drive it because its too uncomfortable to sit in.
?? I *do* watch the DVD sets. It's more like buying a car -- the only
car available on the market -- and driving it, but thinking to yourself,
"Boy, I wish my car didn't have those loud, cheesy explosion and laser
sound effects coming out of the dashboard all the time. This car would be
so much better without that."
> Personally, if you dislike them that much, I think you should save your
> money (since you're not enjoying the sets now anyway, why spend money on
> them?), and wait for the inevitable HD-DVD release a few years from now,
> where Rhino might change things for you.
I also didn't say that I'm not enjoying the sets. You're reading things
into my post that don't belong there. I haven't read most of this thread,
but I'd guess the reason it's so long is that you're probably doing that
to a lot of people. I enjoy the sets by virtue of them being DVD sets of
TF episodes. That alone is a wonderful thing. Each of the various parts
where Rhino has dropped the ball lowers their value to me. They are still
worth getting, but I am frustrated that I have to deal with problems that
should not be there. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
TheHasselhoff
"satisfied with", I assume then that the bad outweighs the good. In that
case, you are buying a product that, all things considered, you don't like.
I think your money would be better spent finding someone on the net that has
really crisp, clear copies of the episodes from television, and then
digitizing them yourself. (Or, if you're lucky, finding someone else to do
it for you.) Or, as some have mentioned in this thread, perhaps the
episodes on DVD in another region would be more to your liking. These are
just suggestions - I just don't think you should spend your hard-earned
money on something that, ultimately, leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
TheHasselhoff
> > But, if that supposed "problem" is such a big deal, then why do people
keep
> > buying the sets as they come out? That doesn't make sense.
> >
>
> *shrug* Lots of things in life don't make sense.
That answer certainly doesn't help your case. But, it shows that many
people out there aren't thinking about what they're buying. (I guess this
explains why Eminem makes money.)
Gregatron
> disappointed by the sound effects and added bloopers. Obviously the sets
> are still worth the purchase price to me. This is primarily because I
> want to have a complete set of episodes that I can watch whenever I like.
>
> > That's like buying a car because it gets great gas mileage, but you
> > don't drive it because its too uncomfortable to sit in.
>
> ?? I *do* watch the DVD sets. It's more like buying a car -- the only
> car available on the market -- and driving it, but thinking to yourself,
> "Boy, I wish my car didn't have those loud, cheesy explosion and laser
> sound effects coming out of the dashboard all the time. This car would be
> so much better without that."
>
> > Personally, if you dislike them that much, I think you should save your
> > money (since you're not enjoying the sets now anyway, why spend money on
> > them?), and wait for the inevitable HD-DVD release a few years from now,
> > where Rhino might change things for you.
>
> I also didn't say that I'm not enjoying the sets. You're reading things
> into my post that don't belong there. I haven't read most of this thread,
> but I'd guess the reason it's so long is that you're probably doing that
> to a lot of people. I enjoy the sets by virtue of them being DVD sets of
> TF episodes. That alone is a wonderful thing. Each of the various parts
> where Rhino has dropped the ball lowers their value to me. They are still
> worth getting, but I am frustrated that I have to deal with problems that
> should not be there. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
>
> --Steve-o
Exactly. There are elements of the DVD sets that are *great*
(beautiful image quality, complete seasons on DVD, etc.), but the
negative aspects drive me batty. If they were trying to "restore" the
episodes, then why do such a half-hearted job of it?
Season 1's "Countdown to Extinction" is the *only* episode in all 3
box sets to be 100% accurate to the broadcast version (because Rhino
could only use the 1" master for some reason). And that doesn't even
include the end credits, which are wrong (Rhino mistakenly
superimposed the *season* 2 end titles on the season 1 background for
the first box set, because the episodes they have don't have episode
titles or end credits).
By the way, I just bought the Beast Wars season 1 set, but have yet to
watch it. I did this because word has it that the episodes are
unaltered from the original versions (even though they have 5.1
tracks, there are no new sound effects). I have *no* problem with
that. If Rhino does a proper job, as they seem to have done with BW
(more on this when I actually SEE the episodes in the set), then I'm
happy.
- Gregatron
Gregatron
> TheHasselhoff wrote:
> >
> > But, if that supposed "problem" is such a big deal, then why do people keep
> > buying the sets as they come out? That doesn't make sense.
> >
>
> *shrug* Lots of things in life don't make sense. I imagine there ARE
> some people, such as your self, that can tolerate or actually enjoy the
> new sounds. I also imagine there are allot MORE people that are just
> ignorant to the fact that those sounds don't belong, thus it's not an
> issue for them. Then there's people like Steve-O who are buying them
> because there's just no other alternative available to them. I wouldn't
> care if Rhino would just be consistent with it. There's absolutely no
> reason for the sounds to be there. AT ALL. But if they're going to be
> adding them, at least leave the 2.0 track untouched as they've promised.
> They should have people QCing these sets so that they can make sure
> they're putting out the best product they can.
I'm buying the sets because:
A. It's the best release of the series so far (entire season sets,
better quality than bootleg videos, etc).
B. The sets have episodes I've never seen (although, since the audio
has been altered, etc., maybe I *still* have3n't seen them).
C. I have hopes that each set will be better than the last (I really
believed this, too, until Rhino took a *BIG* step backwards with
Season 2 part 2).
- Gregatron
Gregatron
> I'm personally very amused by the rather long documentary extra on the
> S1 DVD that shows the differences between what was broadcast and what
> appears on the discs. Rhino knew darn well about each and every
> animation error they have on their discs, because they documented them
> and tossed them in as an extra.
It's so odd. They show a lot of "correct" scenes from "Heavy Metal
War" in the camparison footage, but the actual episode is a patchwork
of 35mm, 1", and "Rhino fixes".
A lot of the "extras" in the season 1 set make no sense, have
spelling/grammar errors, etc.
I was so happy when I bought season 1 on DVD. I thought, "Finally, an
archival-quality set". Anxious to learn about the "restoration", I
popped in the extras disc and watched the comparisons. I was
*horrified* when I heard the new sound effects at the beginning of
MTMTE pt. 1. It went downhill from there.
- Gregatron
Gregatron
You're missing the point. Yes, the series has its share of errors, but
thanks to Rhino, errors that were *corrected* before the original
broadcasts have now cropped up in the DVD sets. Rhino has tried to fix
some of these "new" errors, with terrible results.
- Gregatron
Gregatron
> I agree that the Season 1 boxset leaves much to be desired. The
> episodes tend to look unfinished and unpolished, Heavy Metal War being
> the most egregious example, of course. The animation just looks
> tapes and watching the episodes that way.
>
> The Season 2, Part 1 boxset, however, is just about flawless, in my
> opinion. It more than does justice to the episodes in terms of picture
> and sound quality. (I'll admit I hardly notice the new remixed sound).
> The CGI menu far outranks the crude animation from the first boxset,
> and the extras, while fewer, are much more interesting. Michael
> McConnohie and especially Neil Kaplan are fascinating interviews,
> while the Taste of Botcon 2002 featurette is presented in a much more
> professional and organized manner than the Botcon 2001 featurette from
> the first boxset.
>
> Flame the Season 1 DVD boxset, and rightfully so. But reserve praise
> for the Season 2, Part 1 set - it rocks. I haven't picked up the Part
> 2 boxset, but if it's as good (anybody?), I'm all over it like pink on
> energon.
Yes, season 2 part 1 is *near* perfect. Still, the audio problem
exists on a few episodes, "The Master Builders" has become "The Master
Builder", the spelling of "A Deceptacon Raider in King Arthur's Court"
has been corrected, and there are a few minor "new" bloopers due to
use of the 35mm masters and some "Rhino fixes".
Still, season 2 part 1 gave me hope. Hope that season 2 part 2
shattered.
- Gregatron
Gregatron
It's horrid. A raggedy-edged 1" master cutout of the energy discs
magically appears in Longs Haul's vehicle mode, and a 1" cutout of
Mirage is pasted onto a scene in "The Ultimate Doom part 3". Terrible.
- Gregatron
Gregatron
> brund...@hotmail.com (Gregatron) wrote:
>
> >David Minter <dmi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<s4k3kvsj55omufrlp...@4ax.com>...
>
> >> I have done that in the past, and, for season 3, I'll probably
> >> also protest with my wallet. After the disappointing Season 1 set, I
> >> waited on the 1st Season 2 set. After the reports came out that there
> >> were hardly any errors on it, I gave it a shot, and, sure enough, the
> >> set was much better. So, I got suckered into buying the 2nd set. I
> >> don't think I'll do it anymore. I'll just stick with my old plan,
> >> converting my old VHS tapes, including the error ridden Rhino VHS
> >> releases, to DVD with the Panasonic DMR recorders
>
>
> >Huh? The 12 VHS volumes (as well as the Heroes and Villains VHS tapes)
> >released by Rhino are identical to the original versions (except the
> >season 2 eps are missing their white-lettered episode titles).
>
>
> FAR more than that. Episodes have incorrect season openings.
> Some are missing closing credits. Some have incorrect season closing
> credits. Many are missing the titles, as you mentioned, but some are
> even missing the closing titles, even though the animation is there.
> "Forever Is A Long Time Coming" inexplicably has a scene removed, but,
> the sound is still there, replaced with another shot.
I dunno about the season openings. Zob and I have theorized that the
season 1 opening was used during the beginning of season 2, but no
one's really confirmed/denied. Rhino has just plastered the exact same
opening/ending onto the beginning/end of each episode, instead of
whatever opening was "attached" to the 1" version.
I wans't aware of the FIALTC missing scene. Huh.
>
>
> Interestingly enough, I talked with Paul Davids at BotCon 2001
> about this. My boxed set which contained Grimlock The Hero had a
> damaged copy of that tape. That somehow came up when I got it
> autographed. So, he jokingly said to get another boxed set. Then, I
> brought up all the errors in the sets. He said he'd try and see if
> Rhino would do a better job on them in the future. Don't know if he
> did contact them, or if he even had any say on the property as far as
> Rhino went. But, if he did contact them, they sure didn't do much to
> up the quality control until Season 2-1... then, inexplicably, dropped
> the QC with 2-2.
>
I've been wondering if we could track down somew of the original sound
editors to see what *they* think of the "improved" TF DVD audio...
>
> Now, Rhino HAS proven in the past they know how to handle DVD
> releases. The Heroes and Villains discs, once they got them right,
> didn't have fancy sound changes. None done to the TF and Joe movies.
> The original audio was kept in Battle Of The Planets.
Yes, GI JOE season 1 is next on the hit list, if the mini-series DVD
set is any indication.
- Gregatron
TheHasselhoff
> thanks to Rhino, errors that were *corrected* before the original
> broadcasts have now cropped up in the DVD sets. Rhino has tried to fix
> some of these "new" errors, with terrible results.
No, YOU are missing the point. Why aren't you complaining about the
animation errors, sound flubs, etc. in the broadcast versions? You've yet
to complain about them, which could have been easily fixed during the last
20 years - but you're just going after Rhino.
TheHasselhoff
> has been corrected,
This argument is becoming a case of hypocrisy. Rhino has new errors in the
episodes, and you act like they are nazis or something. But they actually
fix a *glaring* error in an episode, and you still go after them. You talk
about wanting an "archival" boxset, but you get upset when they fix things
that, obviously, *should* be fixed. So, either:
1) The whole "creators' intentions" theory has just been thrown out the
window (unless you think they purposely spelled the word wrong),
-or-
2) You just want to attack Rhino, because they're Rhino.
TheHasselhoff
> I've been wondering if we could track down somew of the original sound
> editors to see what *they* think of the "improved" TF DVD audio...
I'm pretty sure they would say, "Huh? Transformers? Oh yeah, I worked on
that. Don't remember much, really, as it was one of dozens of jobs I've
done. Why are you worried about it? It's just a cartoon."
Gregatron
audio?
JIM BLODGETT
ALLISON COBB
MATT COPE
MICHAEL L. DePATIE
JOHN DETRA
KAREN DOULAC
BRUCE ELLIOTT
RON FEDELE
RICHARD GANNON
LENNY GESCHKE
BRAD GUNTHER
DAVID HANKINS
NICHOLAS JAMES
EFRAIM REUVENI
RICHARD RADERMAN
JOSEPH SOROKIN
WARREN TAYLOR
MICHAEL TOMACK
PETER TOMASZEWICZ
Since they were the *sound editors* for the series, I don't think
they'd be happy to see their work being altered for the worse.
- Gregatron
TheHasselhoff
> they'd be happy to see their work being altered for the worse.
1) Their work was altered all the time - tptb constantly make the supposed
"creators" change things to their liking.
2) I am reasonably sure that, for nearly all of the these people, it was
just a job. It's NOT a big deal to them - because its just a job about a
cartoon.
3) You actually spent the time typing in all of those names? I need to get
you a second hobby.
Gregatron
*Sigh*. The animation errors and bloopers are a *part* of the series
as it originally aired. When they episodes aired, they were as
"complete" as they could be given time and money restraints. The 1"
broadcast versions represent the "complete" versions of the episodes.
Thus, they are tolerable.
Rhino has given us many more bloopers and screw-ups, bloopers that
were *corrected* originally.
If a company held the rights to, say, Citizen Kane or Gone With the
Wind, and decided to release incomplete "rough cuts" of those films on
DVD (claiming they were "restored" versions of the films), would that
be ethical?
- Gregatron
Gregatron
Although fixing the spelling error in "Decepticon" is a good thing, it
still goes against the historical accuracy of the episode.
How can fans have common ground to discuss if there are new variations
of the episodes floating around?
Transfan who owns DVD: "Man, why does the normal forest revert to a
metal one at the end of 'The Key to Vector Sigma part 2'? The creators
really messed that one up."
Transfan who owns bootleg tape (or Rhino VHS): "What are you talking
about? The forest goes from metal to normal on my tape! Don't blame
the creators! They'd obviously fixed that error on the version I
have!"
- Gregatron
Gregatron
nitpicky points:
1. "A Better Mousetrap", "Gorilla Warfare", and "The Probe" are in
reverse order on disc 2 (but not on the box/episode guide lists,
oddly). This is easily fixed by skipping around on the disc a bit.
2. There are some audio distortions in the 5.1 track for some
episodes, but the 2.0 track is fine.
I also noticed that the end credits are different that the credits
seen on the previous Rhino BW DVD vol. 1-2. The prior release has
images from the series on screen left, with the credits on screen
right, as well as different music. The season 1 set has just the
credits. Can anyone explain the deal with this?
Anyway, the episodes have *not* been altered visually or aurally, in
drastic contrast to the G1 DVDs. Thus, I have no problem with this
set, and highly recommend it (although the extras are a bit scarce).
If Rhino releases a good product (not a rough cut with poor "fixes"
and crappy sound effects), then I'm all for it.
- Gregatron
TheHasselhoff
> drastic contrast to the G1 DVDs.
See, this is where I have to constantly wonder what's going on in this
newsgroup, since the BW episodes HAVE been altered visually and audibly.
Now, I love my Beast Wars S1 boxset, just received it a few days ago. BUT,
there is a glaring editing problem - the commercial breaks all appear to
have about a half-second cut from each side of the bumpers. In other words,
the audio & video very abruptly changes during most commercial cuts. (I
know this doesn't have to be the case, as the BW "classics" DVD I have isn't
like this.)
Also (not really problems, but differences) include using the short versions
of the opening credits, removing the bumpers from all of the episodes, and
changes with the sound in the ending credits.
Now, these things don't allow the set to be "perfect", but I still think
they're great. However, I'd say the editing problem alone should be enough
for people such as yourself to be up in arms - it's not just changing the
episodes, but plain sloppy.
(And if you say, "I really didn't notice the bad cuts", or "they weren't
that big a deal to me", well - that's exactly what I would say to you about
the audio in the G1 sets. I barely noticed the new audio, and when I did -
it really wasn't a big deal.)
TheHasselhoff
fix a problem, you attack them. You've tried using so many contradicting
arguments to defend your position, its ridiculous. You've all tried to tell
me that we must respect the "creators' intentions", yet that apparently
means the creators WANTED errors in the episodes (since they aired with
mistakes). I give up.
It's like trying to talk to a Knight Rider fan....
Pyre
> BUT,
> there is a glaring editing problem - the commercial breaks all appear to
> have about a half-second cut from each side of the bumpers. In other words,
> the audio & video very abruptly changes during most commercial cuts.
I'm a bit confused by what you mean here. Are you saying that there's a
cuts made to the bumpers (We'll be right back/We're back) or to the
episodes themselves?
TheHasselhoff
> cuts made to the bumpers (We'll be right back/We're back) or to the
> episodes themselves?
The bumpers are cut out. That's no big deal - I have yet to see a DVD or
VHS episode with them (obviously, except those taped off television).
The problem is: when Rhino cut the bumpers, they also took about a
half-second of the actual episode itself with them. In other words, the DVD
version of most episodes has the commercial breaks seem very abrupt, as the
music (and many times, the video) haven't completely finished. It's like
someone was making a VHS tape, and trying to take out the bumpers and the
commercials, but wasn't perfect, so some of the episode (albeit a small
amount) gets cut out.
It's not a big deal - but it is definitely sloppy.
(BTW - I've never understood why the bumpers were taken out in the first
place.)
Pyre
>
> (BTW - I've never understood why the bumpers were taken out in the first
> place.)
>
Well, unlike the G1 bumpers which had animation of the characters
transforming and whatnot, the BW bumpers were just the title screen with a
voice over from Primal so I imagine Rhino thought they were far more
disruptive to the flow of the episode. It's been a while since I've
watched my Rhino BW Vols 1 & 2 DVDs so I don't remember if they were taken
out of those or not and how the edits were handled. I may have to go back
and look at them to see.
Gregatron
> > Anyway, the episodes have *not* been altered visually or aurally, in
> > drastic contrast to the G1 DVDs.
>
> See, this is where I have to constantly wonder what's going on in this
> newsgroup, since the BW episodes HAVE been altered visually and audibly.
> Now, I love my Beast Wars S1 boxset, just received it a few days ago. BUT,
> there is a glaring editing problem - the commercial breaks all appear to
> have about a half-second cut from each side of the bumpers. In other words,
> the audio & video very abruptly changes during most commercial cuts. (I
> know this doesn't have to be the case, as the BW "classics" DVD I have isn't
> like this.)
> Also (not really problems, but differences) include using the short versions
> of the opening credits, removing the bumpers from all of the episodes, and
> changes with the sound in the ending credits.
Oh? Well, I'm not that knowledgeable about Beast Wars. We're just
*lucky to have the series on DVD*, RIGHT? You shouldn't care about any
"changes" made to the episodes, right?
>
> Now, these things don't allow the set to be "perfect", but I still think
> they're great. However, I'd say the editing problem alone should be enough
> for people such as yourself to be up in arms - it's not just changing the
> episodes, but plain sloppy.
> (And if you say, "I really didn't notice the bad cuts", or "they weren't
> that big a deal to me", well - that's exactly what I would say to you about
> the audio in the G1 sets. I barely noticed the new audio, and when I did -
> it really wasn't a big deal.)
I don't have the emotional attachment to the BW series like I do to
G1, but I still sympathize with those fans who *do*. Now that I know
BW has been tampered with a bit (unlike the *massive* changes made to
G1), I feel bad about it.
Perhaps now you'll understand how I feel.
- Gregatron
TheHasselhoff
> *lucky to have the series on DVD*, RIGHT? You shouldn't care about any
> "changes" made to the episodes, right?
Did you know that you can read the ENTIRE post before offering a rebuttal?
Because this comment makes no sense, considering it's basically what I say
in the next paragraph.
> I don't have the emotional attachment to the BW series like I do to
> G1, but I still sympathize with those fans who *do*. Now that I know
> BW has been tampered with a bit (unlike the *massive* changes made to
> G1), I feel bad about it.
1) Once more, with feeling: IT'S A CARTOON. You make it sound like Rhino
attacked your religion or something. And unless you worship Primus, that's
obviously not the case. (And if it is, you need help.) So put it in
perspective, and realize that the series is just a diversion, maybe a
hobby - and that the words you and your comrades have used in this newsgroup
make a mountain out of a molehill.
2) "Massive"? Adding up every second of the series, and then adding up
those seconds that have been "altered", most episodes would come out with
something less than 1% change - that's NOT "massive".
> Perhaps now you'll understand how I feel.
No, but I'm beginning to understand that you're WAY too far into the
cartoon. And, since you're not -really- listening to me, I also now
understand that I will never get through to you (you can lead a horse to
water...). So, I'm done with this. You just keep spouting out how Rhino is
trying to destroy our way of life - and the 98% of us TF fans who are
actually happy with the boxsets will continue to buy them.
Goldbug
"TheHasselhoff" <jgi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> > I don't have the emotional attachment to the BW series like I do to
> > G1, but I still sympathize with those fans who *do*. Now that I know
> > BW has been tampered with a bit (unlike the *massive* changes made to
> > G1), I feel bad about it.
>
> 1) Once more, with feeling: IT'S A CARTOON. You make it sound like Rhino
> attacked your religion or something. And unless you worship Primus, that's
> obviously not the case. (And if it is, you need help.) So put it in
> perspective, and realize that the series is just a diversion, maybe a
> hobby - and that the words you and your comrades have used in this newsgroup
> make a mountain out of a molehill.
> 2) "Massive"? Adding up every second of the series, and then adding up
> those seconds that have been "altered", most episodes would come out with
> something less than 1% change - that's NOT "massive".
>
>
> > Perhaps now you'll understand how I feel.
>
> No, but I'm beginning to understand that you're WAY too far into the
> cartoon. And, since you're not -really- listening to me, I also now
> understand that I will never get through to you (you can lead a horse to
> water...). So, I'm done with this. You just keep spouting out how Rhino is
> trying to destroy our way of life - and the 98% of us TF fans who are
> actually happy with the boxsets will continue to buy them.
Want my boxset then? Can you return opened DVDs? A LOT of fans became
fans by watching this so called minor cartoon as you portray it.
Plain and simple Rhino ruined it as someone can ruin a vinyl by
scratching it which is how those sound effects do sound like.
--
reply to post as spammers have infiltrated my email box
after Saddam we're going after SPAMMERS!
David Minter
>Want my boxset then? Can you return opened DVDs? A LOT of fans became
>fans by watching this so called minor cartoon as you portray it.
>Plain and simple Rhino ruined it as someone can ruin a vinyl by
>scratching it which is how those sound effects do sound like.
Now that I think about it, Rhino has added and deleted things to
at least one the original sources in their catalog on whims. I just
remembered what they did to their VHS release of Robot Monster. While
I applaud them for releasing it in its original 3-D at one point, they
went in and added a line of dialog, rather poorly, by dubbing in an
imitator over a briefly frozen still. Apparently, Rhino decided that
the Robot Monster needed a motivation to attack the female character
in the picture, not realizing the rules of 1950's B movies. So, to
explain why he goes after the "hapless female" later on, he says the
oddest thing as an aside, "Hmmm, perhaps I can get a date with the
girl!" Rhino also then added a black bar to cover up some apparent
nudity when said monster accosted said girl. I don't know what, if
anything, was actually show, as it occurred during the struggle, so,
it was most likely unintentional. (In exploitation, cheap skin shots
are more obvious.)
My personal objections to Rhino's edits like these and on the Joe
and TF DVD's is no one asked for them and they do not help enhance the
original source. Plus, as evidenced above, who's to say at some
point, Rhino doesn't like a particular plot point and dubs in a new
line into, say, Dark Awakening. Optimus: "Is it safe?! ... perhaps I
can get a date with Arcee!"
Gregatron
just
> *lucky to have the series on DVD*, RIGHT? You shouldn't care about any
> "changes" made to the episodes, right?
Did you know that you can read the ENTIRE post before offering a
rebuttal?
Because this comment makes no sense, considering it's basically what I
say
in the next paragraph.
Feh. At least you admitted it was sloppy. But, you know, we can let
Rhino get away with that, as long as we get BW on DVD. (Can you feel
the sarcasm?)
> I don't have the emotional attachment to the BW series like I do to
> G1, but I still sympathize with those fans who *do*. Now that I know
> BW has been tampered with a bit (unlike the *massive* changes made to
> G1), I feel bad about it.
1) Once more, with feeling: IT'S A CARTOON. You make it sound like
Rhino
attacked your religion or something. And unless you worship Primus,
that's
obviously not the case. (And if it is, you need help.) So put it in
perspective, and realize that the series is just a diversion, maybe a
hobby - and that the words you and your comrades have used in this
newsgroup
make a mountain out of a molehill.
It's not a religion. I simply expect a high-quality product, not a
shamelessly (and sloppily) altered version of the series. After
waiting a long time to get the entire series on DVD in an unaltered
form, these DVDs are a major diappointment. Why is it so wrong to
expect a *well-made* product?
2) "Massive"? Adding up every second of the series, and then
adding up
those seconds that have been "altered", most episodes would come out
with
something less than 1% change - that's NOT "massive".
If the enitre duration of an episode's soundtrack has been pointlessly
altered with crappy new sound effects that drown out the original
sounds and dialogue, then I'd call that "massive".
> Perhaps now you'll understand how I feel.
No, but I'm beginning to understand that you're WAY too far into the
cartoon. And, since you're not -really- listening to me, I also now
understand that I will never get through to you (you can lead a horse
to
water...). So, I'm done with this. You just keep spouting out how
Rhino is
trying to destroy our way of life - and the 98% of us TF fans who are
actually happy with the boxsets will continue to buy them.
I never said anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out where
Rhino has gone wrong and am trying to assure higher-quality releases
in the future that will make *all* parties happy. Rhino is not evil. I
did not say they are evil. I merely want them to do a better job of
pleasing old-time fans and respecting the historical accuaracy of the
series. Is that *SO* much to ask? *Must* I be assaulted by people
coming out of the woodwork, crying out, "You should stop whining and
accept whatever Rhino gives us! How dare you ask for an *accurate*
release of the series!"
Path-etic.
- Gregatron
TheHasselhoff
Sell them on Ebay, its very simple and you'll get most of your money back.
> A LOT of fans became fans
Yes - but apparently, some fans became fanatics along the way.
TheHasselhoff
> the sarcasm?)
No.
> If the enitre duration of an episode's soundtrack has been pointlessly
> altered
10-15 seconds of a 22-minute cartoon is NOT the entire duration.
> I never said anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out where
> Rhino has gone wrong
But you purposely did it with inflammatory language, meant to cause anger in
the readers.
> *Must* I be assaulted by people
> coming out of the woodwork, crying out, "You should stop whining and
> accept whatever Rhino gives us! How dare you ask for an *accurate*
> release of the series!"
How hypocritical is that? You're whining that the sets aren't up to your
standards - then say I'm "assaulting" you, because I have a differing
opinion (and am not afraid to post it)?
> Path-etic.
We're pathetic - but you're the ones that are upset because the boxset
doesn't follow the "creators' intentions" on a 20-year-old cartoon, aimed at
8-year-olds & designed to sell toys. Yep, sure.
Goldbug
"TheHasselhoff" <jgi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> > Want my boxset then? Can you return opened DVDs?
>
> Sell them on Ebay, its very simple and you'll get most of your money back.
>
I tried no one wanted it. :(
>
> > A LOT of fans became fans
>
> Yes - but apparently, some fans became fanatics along the way.
Wow that is amazing! I wonder where that word originated from?
TheHasselhoff
You may want to look up some online help for posting an auction then - I've
sold a bunch of stuff on Ebay (I didn't always get the full price I wanted
or expected, but at least I've gotten something).
> Wow that is amazing! I wonder where that word originated from?
Apparently, this newsgroup.
Gregatron
> > (Can you feel
> > the sarcasm?)
>
> No.
>
>
> > If the enitre duration of an episode's soundtrack has been pointlessly
> > altered
>
> 10-15 seconds of a 22-minute cartoon is NOT the entire duration.
If I hear a new sound every 5 seconds, then it's the duration.
>
>
>
> > I never said anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out where
> > Rhino has gone wrong
>
> But you purposely did it with inflammatory language, meant to cause anger in
> the readers.
That's absurd. Any "inflammatory" language used merely represents my
*own* feelings, my own *opinion*. The purpose of the original post was
to point out the problems with the DVDs (and my feelings about them),
see what other fans think, and suggest possible solutions for future
releases.
You interpret everything I say as an invitation to a fight, rather
than using free speech to state my opinion.
>
>
> > *Must* I be assaulted by people
> > coming out of the woodwork, crying out, "You should stop whining and
> > accept whatever Rhino gives us! How dare you ask for an *accurate*
> > release of the series!"
>
> How hypocritical is that? You're whining that the sets aren't up to your
> standards - then say I'm "assaulting" you, because I have a differing
> opinion (and am not afraid to post it)?
I respect your opinion, I merely object to the idea that I can't state
my *own* opinon without being attacked.
>
>
> > Path-etic.
>
> We're pathetic - but you're the ones that are upset because the boxset
> doesn't follow the "creators' intentions" on a 20-year-old cartoon, aimed at
> 8-year-olds & designed to sell toys. Yep, sure.
I didn't say anyone was pathetic, merely the idea that I can't express
the opinion that the series should be released in an archival,
high-quality form. You sound paranoid. Also, I thought you'd given up
this argument, as you stated in an earlier post. You can lead a Rhino
to water...
- Gregatron
Elc
> You can lead a Rhino to water...
But he'll add a slew of new sound effects before he'll agree to drink?
Steve-o Stonebraker
>> Wow that is amazing! I wonder where that word originated from?
>
> Apparently, this newsgroup.
...
"Fan" is derived from the word "fanatic". It's what it means. Look it up
in any dictionary with etymologies.
--Steve-o
--
Steve Stonebraker | http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/
sst...@yahoo.com | Transformers, astrophysics, comics, games, cartoons.
Gregatron
> Gregatron wrote:
>
> > You can lead a Rhino to water...
>
> But he'll add a slew of new sound effects before he'll agree to drink?
Hah!
- Gregatron
Gregatron
butcher--uhh, I mean, *release* next. Under "other", I suggested they
release a *proper* series of G1 DVD sets.
- Gregatron
Gyumaoh
>butcher--uhh, I mean, *release* next. Under "other", I suggested they
>release a *proper* series of G1 DVD sets.
That's actually a _good_ idea!
Season 1 especially needs to be redone.