Why do people detest this Seibertron.com?
Sunstreaking Penguin
Aberration
> Something bad must have "went down" at some point...
Go to http://groups.google.com/ and do a search for "seibertron.com"
If you want to read everything, you might want to set aside an hour
or so, otherwise it's probably better to just skim.
--Aberration (not taking sides, just answering the question...)
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Steve-o Stonebraker
> Something bad must have "went down" at some point...
I can recall three offenses off the top of my head:
1. Plagiarism of faux TRANSFORMERS UNIVERSE comic entries written by the
fan Tengu. When Tengu took down his site with a TFU archive, Seibertron
was one of the sites that put up a new archive. But they included the
entries that Tengu had created on his own. He asked them to take them
down, they refused, there was a big fight, and they "rewrote" the enties,
making meaningless changes of word choice and claiming that was good
enough.
2. Owing money. Seibertron was one of many sites that sold Dreamwave
comics to fans when Dreamwave started publishing TF material. Some way or
another, they got screwed (don't quite recall) and ended up having
collected a tony of money for merchandise that they couldn't provide.
They have very, very slowly been trying to patch things up with people,
but they still owe a lot of money to fans.
3. Exclusive toy spoiling / theft. Seiberton has a history of
disregarding requests from Hasbro and 3H not to host pictures of stolen
prototype toys. They refused to take down pictures of last year's OTFCC
exclusives until they received a cease and desist letter specifically
written just for them, claiming that the general-purpose statements from
Hasbro about no sites being allowed to host such pictures didn't apply or
matter to them. When they received said letter, they sort of
threw a hissy fit, decorating the site with pictures of Stalin
and such. Similarly, the site's rumor column writer, Prof. Smooth,
actually had the audacity to *solicit* stolen toys (or pictures of
them) from readers by offering merchandise (but not money, which he
thought made it okay) in exchange.
--Steve-o
--
Steve Stonebraker | http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/
sst...@yahoo.com | Transformers, astrophysics, comics, games, cartoons.
David Willis
"Steve-o Stonebraker" <sst...@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
news:slrnc9hs86....@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu...
> On Wed, 05 May 2004 05:49:57 GMT, Sunstreaking Penguin wrote:
> > Something bad must have "went down" at some point...
>
> I can recall three offenses off the top of my head:
>
> 1. Plagiarism of faux TRANSFORMERS UNIVERSE comic entries written by the
> fan Tengu. When Tengu took down his site with a TFU archive, Seibertron
> was one of the sites that put up a new archive. But they included the
> entries that Tengu had created on his own. He asked them to take them
> down, they refused, there was a big fight, and they "rewrote" the enties,
> making meaningless changes of word choice and claiming that was good
> enough.
I don't want this to turn into one of THOSE threads, but I hafta mention the
rest.
Seibertron.com has a Transformer of the Month feature, and when it was
Elita One's turn, they used Tengu's "Badass Transformer of the Month" entry
for the Female Autobots as her write-up.
--David
www.itswalky.com
Ground Zero
> 2. Owing money. Seibertron was one of many sites that sold Dreamwave
> comics to fans when Dreamwave started publishing TF material. Some way or
> another, they got screwed (don't quite recall) and ended up having
> collected a tony of money for merchandise that they couldn't provide.
The distribution idea was a bad one. Ended up being far more volume than
one person could ever hope to handle. Don't think the resolve was handled
as well as it could have been, but I also know it wasn't purposeful.
> 3. Exclusive toy spoiling / theft.
Out of curiosity though -- there are at least a couple sites currently that
consitantly show pictures of prototypes that have come from questionable
sources. CosmicRust and the 2005 boards are good examples. Why has no one
made a fuss about them? Is it primarily because of the OTFCC exclusives
being generally a big surprise people look forward to? Is that a viable
excuse as to why this is still happening with non OTFCC/Botcon figures? I
also recall Ryan removed most of the links. The images were still in the
server directories. People continued to kick up a fuss until he could
search through the site directories for any remaining traces of the pics,
and search through the message board for any threads that might have the
link in them. This got dragged out longer than it should of primarily due
to people going to extreme lengths to find fault.
-Ground Zero
Ground Zero
"David Willis" <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9q6mc.65264$Vp5....@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
That was the one that first drew the attention to the plagiarism, and the
one that had the word swaps done to it. Seibertron had some of the users of
the site do the profiles, so he wasn't aware that the originals were taken
from Tengu, but word swapping doesn't change the fact that it's someone
else's material.
-Ground Zero
kingdom
> Something bad must have "went down" at some point...
Knowing the regulars on the board, probably something that happened
two years ago that would make most adults roll their eyes at hearing
about.
SEIBERTRON
I'll make it easy for everyone:
1 - I used some content in my early online days that I straight out
took from another person's website. Content he had written and content
that I didn't realize, at the time, couldn't just be copied and
pasted. I made a mistake, apologized, removed the content after a long
debate about it, and some people have not been able to let this go.
2 - After Tengu's website had been down for about 6 months, somebody
offered me the TF: Universe profiles from Marvel including all of the
images and all of the text that was at Tengu's website. His site had
been down for 6 months, the material was not really his (if you want
to argue legal rights, it is technically the property of Hasbro and/or
Marvel's and is not really ours to debate) so I didn't see a problem
with providing this content to the fandom once again. So I modified
all of the files, copied all of the content into a searchable
database, and now the content rests on my site. This was 2.5 years
ago. People still will not let this one go.
3 - There was an unfortunate situation with a store that ran on my
website from January 2002 to June 2002. 5 months that I would give
anything to reverse. To put it simply, a lot of the major online TF
sites were asked to sell the new Dreamwave comics from Dreamwave. We
were told to use Paypal which became a nightmare. Paypal locks your
account while they investigate it if someone complains, which someone
did during April after not receiving their books within a few days of
their release even though I hadn't received my books yet from tfw2005
who had not received their shipments from Diamond / Dreamwave. This
created an unfortunate downward spiral. Because I was the third man
down the line, I didn't have answers for people about the delay. More
people complained. Finally those situations were resolved, my PayPal
account was unlocked, and I was able to continue taking and sending
orders. Something similar happened again in May. More people were
involved. Account locked. Account unlocked in time for the June
shipments. This time however, too many people complained. I was stuck
with too much products. People started saying they hadn't received
orders from previous months. Paypal wouldn't unlock the account
because at this point people just wanted their money back (which I
did't blame them) and I didn't have the money to give back in refunds.
I was receiving too many emails. I didn't know what was going on
because Paypal wouldn't respond to messages and therefore I closed the
store in June 2002 before any further damage could happen to the users
of my site or to myself. 5 months that I would give anything to
reverse, as I said above. Ever since then I have been hounded with
messages about refunds ... a lot of which I have taken care of. The
problem is the refunds are coming out of my own pocket at this point
which people don't understand why. A lot of people think I just blew
their money when in fact their money is sitting in the form of
thousands of dollars worth of Dreamwave's products in my apartment
that I got shafted with. That's where all of their money is and until
I can sell it all (hopefully at this year's OTFCC) I can't afford to
give back any more refunds. Bottom line: the situation sucks for all
of those people involved. I have apologized profusely for this
situation time and time again and I understand that people are
frustrated with the situation. I am too. This situation will be made
right one day in the future (perhaps in August, end of July) but it
won't be today.
4 - Some people have been banned (rightfully so) from my website for
improper behavior that has been well defined on my website.
5 - They just don't like how I run my website. Oh well.
6 - Ever hear of the babe gallery on my website called "Before Carly"?
That seemed to set off another group of people.
7 - Others just have a beef with me. I'm a rather outspoken person and
I'll stick up for myself when needed. I know I have made a few asinine
comments online as I have tried defending myself. And when I have made
a mistake, I have apologized. Though this doesn't seem good enough for
some people when I admit I have made a mistake. So now they're just on
a witch hunt after me for whatever reason they have.
But through it all, myself and my website have survived.
SEIBERTRON.com is now the #1 Transformers website according to several
3rd party resources such as Alexa.com. My website has done FAR more
good for the community than it has done wrong and it will be here for
long haul. I have apologized for any wrong actions I have done in the
past, I am continuing to work toward resolving the remaining store
refunds, and I think a lot of us could agree that it is time to move
past a lot of this crap.
Until all are one, Sunstreaking Penguin. I hope you personally are
enjoying the site, because that's what matters most.
Desperado00
>two years ago that would make most adults roll their eyes at hearing
>about.
....
See? That's what happens when you don't know what you're talking about. You
tend to be very wrong.
<plonk!>
-----
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
An egotist is a self-made man who worships his creator.
If we aren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
No horse is too dead to beat.
Thomas Hamann
wrote:
>"Sunstreaking Penguin" <jlur...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9g%lc.5489$a47....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
>> Something bad must have "went down" at some point...
>
>I'll make it easy for everyone:
<snip>
>
>2 - After Tengu's website had been down for about 6 months, somebody
>offered me the TF: Universe profiles from Marvel including all of the
>images and all of the text that was at Tengu's website. His site had
>been down for 6 months, the material was not really his (if you want
>to argue legal rights, it is technically the property of Hasbro and/or
>Marvel's and is not really ours to debate) so I didn't see a problem
>with providing this content to the fandom once again. So I modified
>all of the files, copied all of the content into a searchable
>database, and now the content rests on my site. This was 2.5 years
>ago. People still will not let this one go.
>
Perhaps because it included a couple of fan-written TFU profiles...
Although Tengu (obviously) doesn't own the original names and
characters, he does have copyright rights to his fan-write-up. Just
like fanfic writers and fanartists have rights to their own work, even
though that work is based on a franchise that is owned by someone
else.
So it still is a criminal offense.
Not to mention that it is rather unpleasant to have stuff you put a
lot of time in to write/copy nicked from you.
<snip>
>5 - They just don't like how I run my website. Oh well.
>
No, they don't like your ethics (or rather, the lack thereof).
<snip>
>7 - Others just have a beef with me. I'm a rather outspoken person and
>I'll stick up for myself when needed. I know I have made a few asinine
>comments online as I have tried defending myself. And when I have made
>a mistake, I have apologized. Though this doesn't seem good enough for
>some people when I admit I have made a mistake. So now they're just on
>a witch hunt after me for whatever reason they have.
>
Admitting a mistake as all nice and well, but if you continue to
behave as before apologising it is not seen as very sincere. I think
that is the main problem.
Thomas
--
Website: http://www.geocities.com/hamann_td
Brian Kilby
"David Willis" <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9q6mc.65264$Vp5....@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
>
He also completely missed the point of the e-mail Tengu sent in regards to
the theft of his content. Better still, he embarrassingly paraded it around
as vindication for his plagiarism. *That* was classic.
Zac Bond
"Thomas Hamann" <hama...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a92i90hka6igol65j...@4ax.com...
> Although Tengu (obviously) doesn't own the original names and
> characters, he does have copyright rights to his fan-write-up. Just
> like fanfic writers and fanartists have rights to their own work,
even
> though that work is based on a franchise that is owned by someone
> else.
I think it's quite unclear whether fan fiction of this nature is legal
in the first place, unless it's been granted a license by Hasbro. I
would lean towards "illegal derivitive work," personally.
-Zac
Bermuda Mohawk
188$Np3.1...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
>
> > 2. Owing money. Seibertron was one of many sites that sold Dreamwave
> > comics to fans when Dreamwave started publishing TF material. Some way
or
> > another, they got screwed (don't quite recall) and ended up having
> > collected a tony of money for merchandise that they couldn't provide.
>
> The distribution idea was a bad one. Ended up being far more volume than
> one person could ever hope to handle. Don't think the resolve was handled
> as well as it could have been, but I also know it wasn't purposeful.
>
> > 3. Exclusive toy spoiling / theft.
>
> Out of curiosity though -- there are at least a couple sites currently tha
t
> consitantly show pictures of prototypes that have come from questionable
> sources. CosmicRust and the 2005 boards are good examples
Which I find highly amusing since the 2005 boards continue to bitch and moan
about Orsons World getting taken away, when they show no respect for Hasbro.
They clearly focus on stolen toys for news, and have even sold copyright inf
ringing items in their store.
And yet they lay blame on Tformers entirely for the loss of Orsons World.
--Dave
Not new, just repackaged.
Contact me at: bermudamohawk(a)yahoo.com
"Money has nothing to do with the value of life...You call me up and talk ab
out money, I don't want to hear anymore about money...You put yourself up fo
r sale, You're all sold out"
Charles Calhoun
To summarize:
The webmaster stole some of Rob "Tengu" Gerbracht's writing, and
claimed it as his own. When Tengu publicly called him on this, the
webmaster "fixed" the problem by simply replacing a few key words and
phrases, apparently using a thesaurus. This launched a rather
incredible ATT flamewar on the nature of plagiarism, which is a
concept the webmaster apparently never quite grasped.
A year or so later, Seibertron launched a web-store, and was unable to
deliver its products. The problem is that the customers' money had
apparently already been spent by the webmaster, and he has been
unwilling or unable to deliver refunds, depending on whom you ask.
The web-store situation strikes me as being more a matter of bad luck
and amateur business planning than a matter of willful thievery, but a
lot of people are pretty angry over this.
Then, Seibertron decided that it was their right to spoil the 2003
OTFCC exclusive toys. Convention exclusives have always been fairly
sacrosanct.
They almost immediately follwed that up by offering a bounty on photos
of the Masterpiece Prime toy, which was to be shown off at Hasbro's
OTFCC 2003 panel. Photos had already been expressly forbidden. When
Hasbro tried a similar experiment at Botcon 96 (I THINK it was 96...),
showing off a lot of sensitive art and designs with the understanding
that photographs would be forbidden, some jerk spoiled it for the
entire fandom by taking photographs, and since then Hasbro has never
released information on that same scale. For trying to screw things
up for the entire fandom again, Seibertron earned a new wave of
ill-will.
As far as I know, that's pretty much it.
Exatron
Distributing it is technically illegal since the author is using
Hasbro's trademarks and probably some of their copyrights in addition
to copyrights that a few other companies might hold, but the author of
a fanfic still has a copyright on that particular work. Fortunately
for most fanfic authors, their activity is often beneath Hasbro's
radar due to being obscure and relatively expensive to stamp out
completely.
--
Exatron
"Observe everything, remember even more." - Hound
The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
SEIBERTRON
That was almost 3 years ago and I've learned a lot since then. At what
point do you let this go and drop it? Again, that was almost 3 years
ago. Let it go, please. You don't see me going off about every time I
see the screen captures that I spent countless hours creating showing
up on tons of websites across the Internet (same image name, same file
size) so let's just drop it. It was a mistake. I apologized.
SEIBERTRON
> disregarding requests from Hasbro and 3H not to host pictures of stolen
> prototype toys. They refused to take down pictures of last year's OTFCC
> exclusives until they received a cease and desist letter specifically
> written just for them, claiming that the general-purpose statements from
> Hasbro about no sites being allowed to host such pictures didn't apply or
> matter to them. When they received said letter, they sort of
> threw a hissy fit, decorating the site with pictures of Stalin
> and such. Similarly, the site's rumor column writer, Prof. Smooth,
> actually had the audacity to *solicit* stolen toys (or pictures of
> them) from readers by offering merchandise (but not money, which he
> thought made it okay) in exchange.
You are right. That is something we did and once Hasbro's lawyers
contacted me, I listened to their legal advice and their cease and
desist and removed the images. And then I put up a protest header
image because I didn't like the fact that big brother was watching and
I felt that coming down on the fan sites was only a diversion to the
real problem - which was stopping the auctions on eBay from happening.
If I recall correctly, all of the major sites have gone back to doing
this except none of us seem to be hosting the prototype images on our
sites - we just link to whoever is because we aren't legally
responsible simply for posting a link.
As for Professor Smooth, that post was on my website for ONE hour
before I immediately removed it - shocked and embarrassed. Professor
Smooth made a poor judgement. We talked about it in private and I
don't hold it over his head. We all make mistakes, I'm sure you have
as well at some point in your life. No big deal. Life goes on.
People move past things. But you seem to want to dwell on the FEW
areas in the past where we have messed up. I've tried to ignore it but
you just won't let it go.
SEIBERTRON
> disregarding requests from Hasbro and 3H not to host pictures of stolen
> prototype toys.
As for "history", I recall immediately taking their legal advice once
they contacted me. That was all that I wanted.
Aaron F. Bourque
>And then I put up a protest header image because I didn't like
>the fact that big brother was watching and I felt that coming
>down on the fan sites was only a diversion to the real problem -
>which was stopping the auctions on eBay from happening.
. . .
Argh.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; hello, market? Would you
like to buy these? What? No market? How did that happen?
--
Women supposedly mature at a faster rate than men
If that is true, how come they live so much longer then . . ?
Nothing says maturity like transforming toys for ten-year-olds.
Did Megatron's giant Sphinx come from US parts?
kingdom
regulers are so predictable it seemed about right.
People here have a loooooooooonnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
memory, never forgive, never forget, which is why i don't even bother
to play nice. No point. One out of context comment would ruin you
forever here so no point in bothering.
Daniel Suh
> You are right. That is something we did and once Hasbro's lawyers
> contacted me, I listened to their legal advice and their cease and
> desist and removed the images. And then I put up a protest header
> image because I didn't like the fact that big brother was watching
Actually, IIRC, your wrongdoing was *brought* to the attention of Hasbro by
ordinary fans who say it fit to report you.
Furthermore, you could very easily have expressed your objection in a
non-offensive manner. You could have written an article expressing your
feelings and put it up on Seibertron.com's main page. Instead, you opted to
blanket your site with Cold War images, thereby implying that your
experience with Hasbro was akin to that of people who suffered and died
under the Soviet regime. Such a comparison is, to say the least, complete
and utter horseshit. One could only assume then that you were:
1) Woefully ignorant of world history, and Russian history in particular.
2) Sickeningly immature and insensitive with regard to real world
atrocities.
3) A combination of the above.
I would like to think, Ryan, that you fall under the first category.
Ignorance of history isn't anything to be proud of, but it *can* excuse
certain cases of offensive behaviour. Although it would help to pick up a
book and do some research so as to avoid future transgressions.
> People move past things. But you seem to want to dwell on the FEW
> areas in the past where we have messed up. I've tried to ignore it but
> you just won't let it go.
Ironically, someone posted a couple of Seibertron links on the OTFCC
forums---links to threads full of irrational hatred and outright lies about
the upcoming convention.
So there you go. Current messups as well as past ones.
Susp, oh, and I still get a chuckle everytime I think of how you went to all
the trouble of redirecting me to a flame page when I attempted to access
Seibertron.com. AND how you posted our entire email exchange to ATT. You
really did think it helped your case, didn't you?
"Why everyone keep underestimating me?" -Grimlock(TWW)
Anthony "Tonyfitz" Brucale
news:c0b40492.04050...@posting.google.com...
[snip]
> I felt that coming down on the fan sites was only a diversion to the
> real problem - which was stopping the auctions on eBay from happening.
> If I recall correctly, all of the major sites have gone back to doing
> this except none of us seem to be hosting the prototype images on our
> sites - we just link to whoever is because we aren't legally
> responsible simply for posting a link.
You recall incorrectly.
TFU.info does not post links to stolen images in any news reporting, be it
on the site or in the forums. Moreover, any such links in the forums are
removed by moderators. Discussion of such prototypes is allowed with the
proper spoiler tags; I take no joy in stepping on anyone's right to free
speech in that regard.
Don't take this as an attack on you; in the same vein as maintaining free
speech on my forums, I abhor being spoken for.
Do a favor for "all" of us who run "major" sites: speak for yourself, not
the rest of "us".
--Ant
*******************************************
Anthony "Tonyfitz" Brucale
*******************************************
Webmaster - www.tfu.info
*******************************************
Pyre
<snip>
Go away, troll.
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"I feel my world shake, like an earthquake.
Hard to see clear. Is it me, is it fear?
Madly in Anger with you. I'm madly in anger with you."
David Willis
> I apologized.
Your definition of the word "apologize" must be as retarded as your
grasp of the concepts of "plagiarism" and "sarcasm."
Because there was no such thing from you.
--David
And that's the end of me in this thread.
www.itswalky.com
Steve-o Stonebraker
Ryan, I wasn't trying to villify you with my post. I wanted to make a
simple, facts-based explanation of the things that some people hold
against you / your site. I probably should have included a bit more from
your side to try to show some of the extenuating circumstances and things
you've tried to do to rectify some of the problems. So, sorry.
> People move past things. But you seem to want to dwell on the FEW
> areas in the past where we have messed up. I've tried to ignore it but
> you just won't let it go.
Just to clarify, I, personally, don't really have anything against you.
Not sure if that was supposed to be a general "you" or a "you" directed at
me, but... I don't have anything against you. You've done things I don't
like, but most of them you now regret and have apologized for. Cool with
me. I still disagree with you pretty strongly about the way you handled
the OTFCC toy photos last year, but, that doesn't mean I hate you or
anything. (I have some problems with Prof. Smooth, but, I admit that my
perception of him is unbalanced since I don't frequent your site,
especially the social/news areas. So, pretty much all I know about him is
the bad stuff he's done/does.)
I very much agree with what ViceGrip has been asking lately, which is that
these arguments about seibertron.com are really, really, old, largely
pointless, and always irritating. I would love to see the day come that
seibertron.com can be mentioned in ATT without people following up to
snipe. Sniping was not what I was trying to do -- I just wanted to
provide a simple (hopefully relatively unbiased) answer to the question
since it was directly asked.
Brian Kilby
> I very much agree with what ViceGrip has been asking lately, which is that
> these arguments about seibertron.com are really, really, old, largely
> pointless, and always irritating.
As much as I love you both, I have to disagree. The Seibertron.com threads
are always fun to read. Seibertron.com is the "modern" equivalent to
Transking. Fortunately, instead of only popping up once, it pops up every
year!
Brian Kilby,
as a note, I do not detest Seibertron.com. I've used the site in the
past--but I do love the flames.
SEIBERTRON
When you have a site as large as mine, mistakes are bound to happen.
There is too much that goes on. If your vendetta is to point out our
flaws, so be it. I will be here listening.
I simply wish that instead of pointing out our/my/my site's flaws and
mocking those things in public, you would be a friend to those of us
on my website and contact me personally. I would do the same if the
roles were reversed.
If you think something is out-of-line, I'm all ears. I will always
listen and will always participate in a rational conversation. I would
rather all of us be friends and watch out for each other over waiting
for the next opportunity to seek revenge/strike back/point out a flaw
(not necessarily things you have done; just pointing out things in
general).
SEIBERTRON
> non-offensive manner. You could have written an article expressing your
> feelings and put it up on Seibertron.com's main page. Instead, you opted to
> blanket your site with Cold War images, thereby implying that your
> experience with Hasbro was akin to that of people who suffered and died
> under the Soviet regime. Such a comparison is, to say the least, complete
> and utter horseshit. One could only assume then that you were:
>
> 1) Woefully ignorant of world history, and Russian history in particular.
>
> 2) Sickeningly immature and insensitive with regard to real world
> atrocities.
>
> 3) A combination of the above.
>
> I would like to think, Ryan, that you fall under the first category.
> Ignorance of history isn't anything to be proud of, but it *can* excuse
> certain cases of offensive behaviour. Although it would help to pick up a
> book and do some research so as to avoid future transgressions.
I will admit that action was not the best because it could be
interpreted differently by so many people. I didn't fully realize the
full effect that action would have. It angered a lot of people. It was
immature of me to do that. I have a responsibility with my website and
must tread that path carefully.
If I offended anyone with that action, I apologize. Again, it was not
one of my wisest days.
I am learning though. I do something ... see an unfavorable reaction
from the fandom, and I try to learn from that. I have tried using my
site in some instances to express my political point of view as well.
I have realized now that that is not the responsible thing to do
because we all come from different walks of life, not to mention
different countries. I feel, at this time, it is not my place to try
and encourage users to vote one way or another. Instead, I have
decided to try and encourage users to register to vote by partnering
with "Rock The Vote". I think that is the more responsible thing to
do. I live. I learn. I make mistakes. I try to learn from my mistakes.
I admit I have made a mistake. Can we move past this point or do you
wish to continue to dwell on errors I have made in the past?
SEIBERTRON
I do recall correctly and I stand by my comment. I will not list
domains but I will say yours was not one included in my comment above.
I commend you on what you are doing. You are doing what you believe
in. I am doing what I believe in. If you would like to continue this
conversation in private, I would be more than happy to.
Nice site by the way, I have been using it a lot while referencing the
names of my Micromasters who I have long since forgotten.
SEIBERTRON
> >As for "history", I recall immediately taking their legal advice once
> >they contacted me.
>
> in preventing you from making information available to the fans. While you're
> not evil incarnate, as Walky seems to believe, you're also not the angel you
> portray yourself as.
You're right ... I am no angel. I don't stand here quietly. I will
express my views and tell everyone involved what it is I believe in.
It doesn't mean I am right, it just means that's how I feel.
SEIBERTRON
> characters, he does have copyright rights to his fan-write-up. Just
> like fanfic writers and fanartists have rights to their own work, even
> though that work is based on a franchise that is owned by someone
> else.
I can assure you after consulting several lawyers that he has (and
therefore none of us have) any legal rights to anything we do with
Hasbro and Takara's Transformers characters. Zero. Zilch. Nada. None.
We have NO rights. The only people or companies involved that have any
legal rights to any artwork or stories concerning their copyrighted
characters are Hasbro and Takara. No artwork. No fan-fiction. No
screen captures. No nothing. No countless hours of work that any of us
have done. Only the copyrighted owners of those
characters/toys/cartoons/comics maintain those rights.
Now, with that said, was it "right" for me to copy and paste his
character profiles from a fan-to-fan perspective. No, it probably was
not. I think there is, for the most part, a mutual respect amongst
those in this fandom to respect one another's work. So I broke a
fandom rule. I have apologized for it and I removed the profiles. Did
he and I argue about it quite a bit? Yes? Did I think I was right at
the time? Yes. Kind of. No. I should have respected another fan's
work, bottom line. I didn't at the time. I'm sorry that I didn't. I
wish I had never gone to his now defunct website. But what else can I
do at this time?
Let me ask you guys this (and I am being very serious here, this is
NOT sarcasm): what do you guys want me to do or what do you want to
hear from me so that you guys will drop this stuff? We're
arguing/debating/discussing something that happened 3 years ago. Can
we drop it or at least figure out a way to mutally resolve this
situation?
SEIBERTRON
> >I'll stick up for myself when needed. I know I have made a few asinine
> >comments online as I have tried defending myself. And when I have made
> >a mistake, I have apologized. Though this doesn't seem good enough for
> >some people when I admit I have made a mistake. So now they're just on
> >a witch hunt after me for whatever reason they have.
> >
> Admitting a mistake as all nice and well, but if you continue to
> behave as before apologising it is not seen as very sincere. I think
> that is the main problem.
>
> Thomas
I appreciate your bluntness, Thomas. It is certainly respected ...
I would like to think that I haven't made the same mistake twice,
though I could be wrong and really don't need examples pointed out.
Have I made a variety of mistakes? Of course I have. It's tough not to
... I think "a lot" of the major TF sites have from time-to-time. And
even if I had made the same mistake twice, it's all a learning
process.
None of us are perfect. Try running the largest TF site on the 'net.
Every day there are decisions to make. I don't always make the best.
God forbid that I'm human and that I make mistakes. But I will also
listen to what people have to say about the decisions I have made and
try to learn from the comments and advice I receive so that I can
become a better person.
Live and learn every day, that's what I try to tell myself.
SEIBERTRON
It sadly seems that you are completely right. I will continue my
effort though to make right what is wrong. I will turn a negative
situation into a positive situation in the end. I will listen to what
these people have to say and see what I can take from their comments
to me. They must be expressing their opinion because they want my web
site to benefit from their criticisms so I will listen/read what they
have to say and see if there are additional areas for me or my website
to improve upon.
SEIBERTRON
> claimed it as his own. When Tengu publicly called him on this, the
> webmaster "fixed" the problem by simply replacing a few key words and
> phrases, apparently using a thesaurus. This launched a rather
> incredible ATT flamewar on the nature of plagiarism, which is a
> concept the webmaster apparently never quite grasped.
>
> A year or so later, Seibertron launched a web-store, and was unable to
> deliver its products. The problem is that the customers' money had
> apparently already been spent by the webmaster, and he has been
> unwilling or unable to deliver refunds, depending on whom you ask.
> The web-store situation strikes me as being more a matter of bad luck
> and amateur business planning than a matter of willful thievery, but a
> lot of people are pretty angry over this.
I will give people credit for both of these situations. The situation
with tengu was resolved. The store situation is continuing to be
resolved because it was not "willful thievery" as you put it. It was
an unfortunat mistake and it will be rectified before I am said and
done with the situation.
> Then, Seibertron decided that it was their right to spoil the 2003
> OTFCC exclusive toys. Convention exclusives have always been fairly
> sacrosanct.
Aside from the fact that I made a judgement call to host the images on
my website before Hasbro's lawyers contacted me, I still feel I did
nothing wrong with the prototypes and we will continue to post news
about prototypes that make their way on to eBay or to tfclub.com or
other websites where prototype pictures can often be found before they
are announced. The problem isn't my website - the problem, if you
believe it is a problem, are the websites where these prototypes are
allowed to be sold. Until it is deemed illegal for prototypes to be
sold on eBay and those auctions no longer exist, we will continue
posting links to these prototypes on my website.
If you do not like to view links to prototypes or hear about
prototypes simply don't come to my website. I'm not changing this
policy so just quit coming to my website if you don't like spoilers. I
like spoilers. I pay the money for my website. So we will continue
posting spoilers. No one is making you visit my website.
> They almost immediately follwed that up by offering a bounty on photos
> of the Masterpiece Prime toy, which was to be shown off at Hasbro's
> OTFCC 2003 panel. Photos had already been expressly forbidden. When
There is no "they". One of the staff members on my website made an
error and posted a bounty. He made a mistake for which he apologized.
The post was removed within an hour of it being posted by yours truly.
As soon as I got online, I deleted it. I can't control the actions of
everyone on my website so how dare you hold this over my head or over
my website. It is unfair, especially when we are talking about
something that was only online for ONE hour before the situation was
rectified. When I see this comment, I know you guys are just
nitpicking.
> Hasbro tried a similar experiment at Botcon 96 (I THINK it was 96...),
> showing off a lot of sensitive art and designs with the understanding
> that photographs would be forbidden, some jerk spoiled it for the
> entire fandom by taking photographs, and since then Hasbro has never
> released information on that same scale. For trying to screw things
> up for the entire fandom again, Seibertron earned a new wave of
> ill-will.
I can assure you that nothing was screwed up for the fandom based upon
the connections that I have gained in the past 12 months. Things are
going very, very well for the fandom.
Zobovor the Multi-Faceted
>I like spoilers. I pay the money for my website. So we will continue
>posting spoilers. <snip>
>I can't control the actions of everyone on my website so how dare you hold
this
>over my head or over my website.
"I pay the bills, so I decide what goes on my site."
"I can't control what goes on my site, so you can't hold me accountable for its
content."
Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
Richard Mistron
> Steve-o Stonebraker wrote...
> > I very much agree with what ViceGrip has been asking lately,
> > which is that these arguments about seibertron.com are really,
> > really, old, largely pointless, and always irritating.
Thank you, Steve. That means a lot to me.
> As much as I love you both, I have to disagree. The Seibertron.com
> threads are always fun to read. Seibertron.com is the "modern"
> equivalent to Transking. Fortunately, instead of only popping up once,
> it pops up every year!
You know what Brian? This makes me sad.
--
| Vigilant Studios:
| http://www.vigilantstudios.net/
|---------------------------------------
| CybCon 2004:
| http://www.ggaub.com/tf/cybcon2k4.html
Derik Smith
<snip about 5000 words>
JESUS Ryan, I say this as someone who doesn't give two shits about you-
SHUT UP! You're like half the posts on this thread, responding, in detail, to
every person who takes exception to you, going over the exact same points again
and again.
Brian Kilby wrote:
>The Seibertron.com threads are always fun to read. Seibertron.com
>is the "modern" equivalent to Transking. Fortunately, instead of only
>popping up once, it pops up every year!
I have to agree with Kilby. The way you go all dear in the headlights?
You're FUN to taunt. Hell, I'm tempted to join in and I don't' actually care!
Maybe I'll start a Seibertron.com hate thread next time ATT is boring.
Ryan- you have POOR COMMUNICATION SKILLS, you couldn't get your point of
view across two pie charts and an advertising budget.
Additionally, you have POOR COMMUNICATION SKILLS, you have trouble
grasping what exactly it is you're doing (ongoing, not just in the past) that
pisses people off- and thus you call them unreasonable sons of bitches for not
forgiving you your past mistakes-- despite the fact that you continue making
the exact same fundamental ones.
You say that mistakes are going to happen in running a website as large as
yours- but they really shouldn't, not the kind of bridge-burning gaffes and,
dare I say it, DECISIONS that have pockmarked st.com's history. Write a
Mission Statement, dumbass! 'This is what we are about, these are out goals,
this is how we will accomplish them. This is the niche we wish to fill, this
is what we do not wish to do. This is what we consider right, and wrong.'
Every major website I've worked on BEGINS with a mission statement. It
provides clarity, and keeps you from straying by providing guidelines.
Seibertron.com, and its owner (yourself) occupies a moral void. And you wonder
why a particular brand of nasty amorality runs rampant.
(I should mention that I myself possess a rather skewed moral compass, but
I at least KNOW it. You're clueless, and every time your moral compass leads
you wrong you get yelled at- and get pissed off. "What is these people's
problem?")
You want to know why Cosmicrust gets away with it and you don't? Because
they're GOOD at it. They go about their business with a kind of impersonal
disregard the established mores of web sites that is NOT dedicated to drawing
hits-- they don't host a hot story solely for the sake of getting 100,000 hits
in one day- they do it as a matter of course, with no fanfare and no cheering--
and no hitcount. This places them neatly into a gray information market that
transfandom wants and to a degree demands.
They're fucking DISCRETE. Do you even know the word?
You also seem to lack any grasp of the fact that the fandom in which you
operate constitutes a society, albeit a cross-sectional one. The same basic
social respect for your neighbors that keeps you from mowing your lawn at 3 AM
should be in effect. Sure, there's no LAW that says you can't mow at night
(I've actually been tempted to, repeatedly) but you're being an asshole if you
do so-- and if your neighbor angrily shakes his fist at you from over the fence
and you say "What the hell is YOUR problem? I'm just mowing my lawn." He will
want to hit you MORE, for completely missing the operative point.
I mean, JESUS. You responded to a point about liberating someone else's
work the definition of plagiarism by explaining that, according to your lawyer,
no one in the fandom has ANY rights to the derived works they've produced.
Implied and unsaid- 'since Tengu has no rights, I wasn't violating his.' And
THEN you bitterly lament how you have no right to any of YOUR thousands of
hours of hard work either, speaking with obvious attachment to them.
…how the hell do you miss the operative point here? How? I've listened
in on several of these threads over the last few years, and you KEEP DOING IT.
A fandom does not run on legal definitions of property and content.
Internal to itself, the originator has domain over his or her own work that,
even if the Corporation that owns the fandom is able to blithely ignore, OTHER
MEMBERS OF THE FANDOM ARE BOUND TO OBSERVE.
It's an outlaw society. No one has rights to anything, so you have to
pretend some basic property rules exist, because without them it's complete
anarchy and you'd have dozens of geocities web sites made up of badly modified
versions of the bwtf.com frontpage.
Fail to comply with this shared illusion, fail to learn the unspoken
social rules in operation, and you will be/are ostracized for it.
Charles Calhoun wrote:
>> Hasbro tried a similar experiment at Botcon 96 (I THINK it was 96...),
>> showing off a lot of sensitive art and designs with the understanding
>> that photographs would be forbidden, some jerk spoiled it for the
>> entire fandom by taking photographs, and since then Hasbro has never
>> released information on that same scale. For trying to screw things
>> up for the entire fandom again, Seibertron earned a new wave of
>> ill-will.
webm...@seibertron.com (SEIBERTRON) replied:
>I can assure you that nothing was screwed up for the fandom based upon
>the connections that I have gained in the past 12 months. Things are
>going very, very well for the fandom.
…
*laughs*
God, you're hopeless.
-Derik
"It's a 'helicopter' thing, apparently." - High Wire
"I remember violence and Vegas and random humans,
many of whom were named John." - Chris Funaro recalls Hardwired
Semper Idem Excretum, sed Sole Profundum Variat
Pretty Witty!
Derik Smith
>I listened to their legal advice and their cease and
>desist and removed the images. And then I put up
>a protest header image because I didn't like the fact
>that big brother was watching and I felt that coming
>down on the fan sites was only a diversion to the real
>problem
Yes, you put up a protest banner of Lennin... on... your... page?
Wait, are tou protesting an oppressive regime, or are you advocating some
sort of communal property system wherein you'd have as much of a right as
anyone to display those images?
Isn't Big Brother usually associated with the west, actually? Not the
eastern bloc?
Please understand, the sheer LEVEL of disgust you encountered from the
fandom was not over putting up a protest banner- it is in putting up a STUPID
one, that makes no sense, and makes you look liek a dumbass. Like that beltway
sniper who kept dropping the death card, everyone got to sigh and rool their
eyes- "Idiot, does he not understand the symbols he's invoking?"
It's a bit like watching a young child try to put together a death metal
band with no idea how to be evil except by copying others, and no underlying
understanding of hose the co-opted symbology works together as a whole.
Zac Bond
"Exatron" <exa...@NOhotmSpAMail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.05....@NOhotmSpAMail.com...
> Distributing it is technically illegal since the author is using
> Hasbro's trademarks and probably some of their copyrights in
addition
No, creating it in the first place is illegal, since the characters
themselves are copyrighted. You have no rights to an illegally
created work.
Whether Hasbro cares is a different (and very easily answered)
question. But I'm still a little skeptical of people whose work only
exists by Hasbro's graces complain about their "rights" being abused.
-Zac
Brian Kilby
"Richard Mistron" <rcmist...@BLOCKsprynet.com> wrote in message
news:vhkmc.8987$Hs1....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Brian Kilby wrote...
> > Steve-o Stonebraker wrote...
> > > I very much agree with what ViceGrip has been asking lately,
> > > which is that these arguments about seibertron.com are really,
> > > really, old, largely pointless, and always irritating.
>
> Thank you, Steve. That means a lot to me.
>
> > As much as I love you both, I have to disagree. The Seibertron.com
> > threads are always fun to read. Seibertron.com is the "modern"
> > equivalent to Transking. Fortunately, instead of only popping up once,
> > it pops up every year!
>
> You know what Brian? This makes me sad.
Which part? The fact that I derive humor from this or the part where an
obese toy geek who lives in a basement says that he loves you?
Brian Kilby
Ethan Hammond
>
> "I pay the bills, so I decide what goes on my site."
> "I can't control what goes on my site, so you can't hold me accountable
for its
> content."
>
> Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
LOL He might as well just say:
It depends on what the meaning of content is.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
cappeca
> "Ground Zero" <ggrond...@BLOCKhotmail.com> wrote in message news:CA6mc.35
> 188$Np3.1...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> >
> > Out of curiosity though -- there are at least a couple sites currently tha
> t
> > consitantly show pictures of prototypes that have come from questionable
> > sources. CosmicRust and the 2005 boards are good examples
>
> Which I find highly amusing since the 2005 boards continue to bitch and moan
> about Orsons World getting taken away, when they show no respect for Hasbro.
> They clearly focus on stolen toys for news, and have even sold copyright inf
> ringing items in their store.
>
> And yet they lay blame on Tformers entirely for the loss of Orsons World.
>
When all that confusion about Orson and 2005 took place, I was one of
the guys that asked the same question. How can 2005 get away with it?
The final conclusion was that I was biased. So, even though you can
find a lot of criminal acts in this fandom all around (including DW
stealing of Studio OX designs - and a LOT of fanart ideas), only a few
mainstream ones will be judged and then forever flamed. I personally
blame that on the smart-asses on ATT, which once get their minds set,
arguments are pointless.
Should the initial post be considered a sincere one, and not just some
flame-bait, I'd advise the poster to refrain from asking delicate
issues around, and instead go check out the archives at
groups.google.com.
Cesar
cappeca
> >Knowing the regulars on the board, probably something that happened
> >two years ago that would make most adults roll their eyes at hearing
> >about.
>
> ....
>
> See? That's what happens when you don't know what you're talking about. You
> tend to be very wrong.
>
> <plonk!>
> -----
Seems like you're in denial.
Orson "Sidecutter" Christian
"cappeca" <cap...@godisdead.com> wrote in message
news:90b3e882.04050...@posting.google.com...
> The final conclusion was that I was biased. So, even though you can
> find a lot of criminal acts in this fandom all around (including DW
> stealing of Studio OX designs - and a LOT of fanart ideas)
Woah! What Studio OX designs did they steal, and who's fan art ideas?
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.676 / Virus Database: 438 - Release Date: 5/3/2004
Steven Acevedo
<jlur...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Something bad must have "went down" at some point...
It's better that you don't know.
Wonko the Sane
> If I recall correctly, all of the major sites have gone back to doing
> this except none of us seem to be hosting the prototype images on our
> sites - we just link to whoever is because we aren't legally
> responsible simply for posting a link.
You recall incorrectly. Assuming BWTF is still considered a "major
site" by your definition, I have not posted a prototype image of any
sort on my site since waaaaaaaaay back in 2001ish when I put up one
image of a prototype of the Ultra Magnus Spychanger. After a
discussion with Hasbro, they said they didn't like it, and that was
that. I do not, WILL not post images, links etc. to anything
regarding stolen protos.
Check facts before speaking for other sites next time.
Ben
Desperado00
>
I believe this falls under the heading of "Too Little, Too Late."
-----
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
An egotist is a self-made man who worships his creator.
If we aren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
No horse is too dead to beat.
Richard Mistron
> Richard Mistron wrote...
>
> > You know what Brian? This makes me sad.
>
> Which part? The fact that I derive humor from this or
> the part where an obese toy geek who lives in a basement
> says that he loves you?
Well, no one said they loved me in this thread. So, it would have to be
that you derive humor from this.
Daniel Suh
> You recall incorrectly. Assuming BWTF is still considered a "major
> site" by your definition, I have not posted a prototype image of any
> sort on my site since waaaaaaaaay back in 2001ish when I put up one
> image of a prototype of the Ultra Magnus Spychanger. After a
> discussion with Hasbro, they said they didn't like it, and that was
> that. I do not, WILL not post images, links etc. to anything
> regarding stolen protos.
And this is one reason why the fandom absolutely loves and respects and
appreciates you and your site, Ben.
Susp
"My hero!" *smooch* -Rattrap(BW)
Exatron
> No, creating it in the first place is illegal, since the characters
> themselves are copyrighted. You have no rights to an illegally
> created work.
No, I have done the research. The underlying work is considered
copyrighted by the author, but it cannot be distributed because it is
making use of someone else's work without permission. It could even
be published legally if stripped of the offending copyrighted and
trademarked materials.
As an example, the company now known as SCO is alleging that some of
its code found its way into Linux without authorization and that Linux
is an unathorized derivative of Unix, but even if that proves true the
most that SCO could ask for is to have its code removed from the
software. Groklaw.net has a much more detailed history of the ongoing
debacle if you're interested.
Another example is a planned episode of Babylon 5 that the writers had
to abandon for a season because a fan posted a very similar idea to
the Babylon 5 newsgroup. The episode was only made because the fan
was willing to go through the lengthy process of giving legal release
for the idea to be used by Babylon 5's production team.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K35813A38
--
Exatron
"See and you can know, know and you can destroy." - Reflector
The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
G.B.Blackrock
webm...@seibertron.com (SEIBERTRON) wrote in message news:<c0b40492.04050...@posting.google.com>...
[snip] I still feel I did
> nothing wrong with the prototypes and we will continue to post news
> about prototypes that make their way on to eBay or to tfclub.com or
> other websites where prototype pictures can often be found before they
> are announced. The problem isn't my website - the problem, if you
> believe it is a problem, are the websites where these prototypes are
> allowed to be sold. Until it is deemed illegal for prototypes to be
> sold on eBay and those auctions no longer exist, we will continue
> posting links to these prototypes on my website.
Someone will correctly me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it IS
illegal, and against eBay's rules, to sell stolen prototypes. The
only reason the auctions continue to exist is because the only way
eBay has to stop them is by someone alerting them to the auction's
existence. There's simply too much stuff there for it to be
automatic.
My two cents,
G.B. Blackrock
--- who promises to say no more on this thread.
Brian Kilby
"Richard Mistron" <rcmist...@BLOCKsprynet.com> wrote in message
> Brian Kilby wrote...
> > Richard Mistron wrote...
> >
> > > You know what Brian? This makes me sad.
> >
> > Which part? The fact that I derive humor from this or
> > the part where an obese toy geek who lives in a basement
> > says that he loves you?
>
> Well, no one said they loved me in this thread.
I direct you back to the comments to which you expressed melancholy, sir.
> So, it would have to be that you derive humor from this.
Man, VGX, this makes ME sad...
Thomas Hamann
<exa...@NOhotmSpAMail.com> wrote:
>Zac Bond wrote:
>
>
>> "Thomas Hamann" <hama...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:a92i90hka6igol65j...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> Although Tengu (obviously) doesn't own the original names and
>>> characters, he does have copyright rights to his fan-write-up. Just
>>> like fanfic writers and fanartists have rights to their own work,
>> even
>>> though that work is based on a franchise that is owned by someone
>>> else.
>>
>> I think it's quite unclear whether fan fiction of this nature is
>> legal in the first place, unless it's been granted a license by
>> Hasbro. I would lean towards "illegal derivitive work," personally.
>
>Distributing it is technically illegal since the author is using
>Hasbro's trademarks and probably some of their copyrights in addition
>to copyrights that a few other companies might hold, but the author of
>a fanfic still has a copyright on that particular work. Fortunately
>for most fanfic authors, their activity is often beneath Hasbro's
>radar due to being obscure and relatively expensive to stamp out
>completely.
Usually companies will allow it, as long as no profit is made on the
distribution.
Thomas
--
Website: http://www.geocities.com/hamann_td
Túrin
<clap, clap> This gives me a measure of hope for the human race.
Túrin
Túrin
from having an opinion, so here's the view from a disinterested party
based on this thread.
SEIBERTRON wrote:
> Let me ask you guys this (and I am being very serious here, this is
> NOT sarcasm): what do you guys want me to do or what do you want to
> hear from me so that you guys will drop this stuff? We're
> arguing/debating/discussing something that happened 3 years ago. Can
> we drop it or at least figure out a way to mutally resolve this
> situation?
It will never end.
You know why? Because for you, the rules of society are something to be
gotten around. You don't really respect other people's feelings. It's
all about you. If you can get away with breaking the rules the rest of
us agree on, you will, and you'll only apologize because you got caught,
not because you did anything bad. Even your apologies are hedges: "it
was probably not the right thing to do" is not the same as "I did
something bad, and I'm sorry, and I won't do it again."
Bottom line is, you're selfish, and people know it. You can't truly
repent without humbling yourself. You won't do that.
So it will never end.
Túrin
Disinterested party.
Hydra
> webm...@seibertron.com (SEIBERTRON) wrote:
>
> <snip about 5000 words>
>
> JESUS Ryan, I say this as someone who doesn't give two shits about you-
> SHUT UP! You're like half the posts on this thread, responding, in detail, to
> every person who takes exception to you, going over the exact same points again
> and again.
>
> Brian Kilby wrote:
>
> >The Seibertron.com threads are always fun to read. Seibertron.com
> >is the "modern" equivalent to Transking. Fortunately, instead of only
> >popping up once, it pops up every year!
>
> I have to agree with Kilby. The way you go all dear in the headlights?
Dear, try to stay away from those headlights...
Better yet, update my site (grumble)...
-Hydra
Hydra
Well, who would expect moral behavior from a site named
CosmicRust.com? They took the name for, basically, Space AIDS. No
wonder they're a virus among the fandom...
-Hydra
Desperado00
>CosmicRust.com? They took the name for, basically, Space AIDS. No
>wonder they're a virus among the fandom...
Wow...even 20 grit sandpaper isn't *that* rough.
Richard Mistron
>
> I direct you back to the comments to which you
> expressed melancholy, sir.
Likely logged and forgotten, I'm afraid. I don't remember things as well as
some do.
> Man, VGX, this makes ME sad...
Sorry. I just can't understand how it could be humorous. Sad and pathetic
are the words I would chose to describe the Seibertron flames.
~Richard... just don't see anything funny in a flame.
Denyer
> making meaningless changes of word choice and claiming that was good
> enough.
TF profiles won't contain pretty much identical information regardless
of who writes them? It might be better to focus on fact there was ever
any question of the ones Tengu put together being replaced. 'Word
shuffling' happens in any news report, college paper or writings which
is not primary source material... although some people are more adept
with their use of substitution and precis than others.
Denyer.
Denyer
Discreet.
Sunstreaking Penguin
Desperado00
or any of Renaud's sites for that matter, increase during these flamewars? Bad
publicity is still publicity.
SEIBERTRON
I'm sorry, Ben. I shouldn't have made that comment. It was a broad
sweeping comment and I didn't mean for it as an attack on anyone.
SEIBERTRON
> Woo boy... this thread is way longer than it needs to be already. FWIW,
> Ryan, I wasn't trying to villify you with my post. I wanted to make a
> simple, facts-based explanation of the things that some people hold
> against you / your site. I probably should have included a bit more from
> your side to try to show some of the extenuating circumstances and things
> you've tried to do to rectify some of the problems. So, sorry.
>
> > People move past things. But you seem to want to dwell on the FEW
> > areas in the past where we have messed up. I've tried to ignore it but
> > you just won't let it go.
>
> Just to clarify, I, personally, don't really have anything against you.
> Not sure if that was supposed to be a general "you" or a "you" directed at
> me, but... I don't have anything against you. You've done things I don't
> like, but most of them you now regret and have apologized for. Cool with
> me. I still disagree with you pretty strongly about the way you handled
> the OTFCC toy photos last year, but, that doesn't mean I hate you or
> anything. (I have some problems with Prof. Smooth, but, I admit that my
> perception of him is unbalanced since I don't frequent your site,
> especially the social/news areas. So, pretty much all I know about him is
> the bad stuff he's done/does.)
>
> I very much agree with what ViceGrip has been asking lately, which is that
> these arguments about seibertron.com are really, really, old, largely
> seibertron.com can be mentioned in ATT without people following up to
> snipe. Sniping was not what I was trying to do -- I just wanted to
> provide a simple (hopefully relatively unbiased) answer to the question
> since it was directly asked.
>
> --Steve-o
Thanks for the clarification, Steve-o. I look forward to that day as well.
SEIBERTRON
> "SEIBERTRON" <webm...@seibertron.com> wrote in message
> news:c0b40492.0405...@posting.google.com...
>
> > I apologized.
>
> Your definition of the word "apologize" must be as retarded as your
> grasp of the concepts of "plagiarism" and "sarcasm."
>
> Because there was no such thing from you.
>
> --David
> And that's the end of me in this thread.
> www.itswalky.com
David, I'm sorry if I have done something wrong that has offended you
or the other users here. Can you approach me or my website with an
open mind, please? This arguing is what's ridiculous. We're all TF
fans in the end ... there's no point to all of this.
I'm all ears if one of you can put forth a reasonable list of things
you would like to see changed on my website and perhaps we can come up
with a compromise of sorts. Not demands, but constructive
criticsm/ideas/suggestions. I've yet to see something like that. But
if a few of you can come up with something, I would be more than happy
to work with you guys and go over the constructive
criticism/ideas/suggestions that you have for me. Does that sound
fair?
Ethan Hammond
>
> Wow... I didn't mean to set off such a deluge of *fist shaking* at this
guy.
Now you know.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Kil - Michael McCarthy
>
>"Sunstreaking Penguin" <jlur...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>
>> Wow... I didn't mean to set off such a deluge of *fist shaking* at this
>guy.
>
>Now you know.
>
And knowing is half the Battletrap.
-Kil
Or maybe that was a helicopter...
----
Michael McCarthy. Kil for short... flying carpet!
The Kil File - http://hometown.aol.com/michaelmcc79/index.html
"'Suck' is a relative term." -God, "Joan of Arcadia"
Pyre
>
> The fact they seem to hold this
> much hatred after two or so years over some incredibly minor events
> can attest to this and the general instability of many in the online
> community.
Yet, you're still here.
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"I feel my world shake, like an earthquake.
Hard to see clear. Is it me, is it fear?
Madly in Anger with you. I'm madly in anger with you."
Weapon X
On 5/5/2004 1:49 AM, "Sunstreaking Penguin" <jlur...@earthlink.net>
wrote in <9g%lc.5489$a47....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>:
> Something bad must have "went down" at some point...
Because it is the evil Japanese version of 'Cybertron'
???
{that was a joke,BTW}
WX
`Just because you say that "up north, we don't lock our doors" doesn't
mean it's o.k. to do so down here in the south(ern USA).`
help for robbery victims: http://www.ncvc.org/tvp/main.aspx?dbName=Robbery
SEIBERTRON
> > >"Sunstreaking Penguin" <jlur...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > >>
> > >> Wow... I didn't mean to set off such a deluge of *fist shaking* at this
> > >guy.
>
> thread is just an example of that. The fact they seem to hold this
> much hatred after two or so years over some incredibly minor events
> can attest to this and the general instability of many in the online
> community.
>
> things you DON'T do when being attacked. 1) Defend yourself 2)
> apoligize and admit to mistakes. Notice the catch-22? If you do
> either, you will be eviserated. The first just angers the rightous
> who decide must prove you wrong, number 2 just vindicates them and
> fuels the fire to attack you even more. So you screwed no matter
> what. Best thing to do is simply ignore it. Not a happy solution but
> about the only that works.
Or am I am adding fuel to the fire to keep talking about my website?
Good or bad press is still good press in the end. :)
SEIBERTRON
> grasping what exactly it is you're doing (ongoing, not just in the past) that
> pisses people off
Or maybe I know exactly what's going on and I enjoy stirring up the
pot to keep people talking about my site? I'm accomplishing my goals
and making myself happy. If I can entertain a few people along the
way, then that also makes me happy.
I give up. You guys are no fun. So I'll just say what all of you want
me to say anyways since it fits the portrayal of myself that you guys
have painted: I like to get you guys riled up and I'm glad to see that
I got you guys to talk about my site for so long in this thread.
Thanks and have a great weekend. =)
Desperado00
>Good or bad press is still good press in the end. :)
Hmmm...that looks oddly familiar. Oh, yeah, I ALREADY SAID SOMETHING
BLINDINGLY SIMILAR TO THAT. Sheesh...
Often Imitated Never Duplicated
>>Good or bad press is still good press in the end. :)
>
>Hmmm...that looks oddly familiar. Oh, yeah, I ALREADY SAID SOMETHING
>BLINDINGLY SIMILAR TO THAT. Sheesh...
Yeah............TEN THOUSAND TIMES! Whats really interesting about the "bash
Seibertron" threads is that it is propagated by say, maybe 7 people, with just
a few random participants. Now go back and look at the prior replys. If you see
your name more than twice..........well.......your part of the damn problem!
---
Retardomontalban
Lifeguard of the gene pool
Ethan Hammond
>
> Welcome to most forum boards. Most people use boards to vent, this
> thread is just an example of that. The fact they seem to hold this
> much hatred after two or so years over some incredibly minor events
> can attest to this and the general instability of many in the online
> community.
Which is why we have Ethan to keep things lighthearted.
Thylacine 2000
> Whats really interesting about the "bash
> Seibertron" threads is that it is propagated by say, maybe 7 people, with just
> a few random participants. Now go back and look at the prior replys. If you see
> your name more than twice..........well.......your part of the damn problem!
WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH RETARDO?!
Thomas Hamann
wrote:
>> Although Tengu (obviously) doesn't own the original names and
>> characters, he does have copyright rights to his fan-write-up. Just
>> like fanfic writers and fanartists have rights to their own work, even
>> though that work is based on a franchise that is owned by someone
>> else.
>
>I can assure you after consulting several lawyers that he has (and
>therefore none of us have) any legal rights to anything we do with
>Hasbro and Takara's Transformers characters. Zero. Zilch. Nada. None.
>We have NO rights. The only people or companies involved that have any
>legal rights to any artwork or stories concerning their copyrighted
>characters are Hasbro and Takara. No artwork. No fan-fiction. No
>screen captures. No nothing. No countless hours of work that any of us
>have done. Only the copyrighted owners of those
>characters/toys/cartoons/comics maintain those rights.
>
A) Not everyone lives in a country with copyright laws as screwed up
as the US ones (*cough*DMCA*Cough*).
B) Although the copyrigh tto the original Transformers franchise,
likenesses, and characters is indeed in HasTaks' hands, I can assure
you that I do have rights to characters *I* created myself, as well as
anything I wrote or drew. Derived work. No profit made.
Thomas
kingdom
You could but couldn't call it a transformer or autobot or deception
or any other label that is used within the TF universe that is owned
by Hasbro. So basically your character would be about is grand and
fun as a go-bot or any of those other knockoffs you find. And all
this assumes Hasbro doesn't fight you anyway just for giggles which
you couldn't afford.
BW Glitch
> You could but couldn't call it a transformer or autobot or deception
> or any other label that is used within the TF universe that is owned
> by Hasbro. So basically your character would be about is grand and
> fun as a go-bot or any of those other knockoffs you find. And all
> this assumes Hasbro doesn't fight you anyway just for giggles which
> you couldn't afford.
It can't fight you just for giggles. Do you have any idea on how much
does it cost to unleash a team of lawyers? The only company _by itself_
(that doesn't make a consorsium) that can do that is Microsoft.
And they have done it in the past.
--
Glitch
http://andres980.tripod.com/tf.html
I ram Decepticons into the breakdown lane, just for the fun of it!
-- Heavy Tread (G1)
Thomas Hamann
Actually, seeing 'transformer' is a completely normal word, just like
'to transform' is a completely normal verb (meaning 'to change
something into something'), I could.
However, if I were to market a line of transforming robots under the
name 'Transformers', I'd probably get sued.
On the other hand, marketing a line of transforming robots under names
like 'Transformable robot warrior', 'Transform-robot', or
'Transforming robots' is perfectly legal. Which is why so many
companies do it.
>or autobot or deception
>or any other label that is used within the TF universe that is owned
>by Hasbro.
Unless it is also a commonly used word.
Or a name that has become a commonly used word.
> So basically your character would be about is grand and
>fun as a go-bot or any of those other knockoffs you find.
Gobots are not knock-offs. They were designed by Bandai.
>And all
>this assumes Hasbro doesn't fight you anyway just for giggles which
>you couldn't afford.
I think you think Hasbro's got a lot more power than they actually
have.
Thomas
kingdom
> have.
>
> Thomas
LOL wow you are desperate to win this argument.
It has nothing to do with power, it has to do with money. You are
thinking small potatoes where hiring a lawyer is a big expensive deal.
For them it expensive but a minor drop in the bucket. Every new
character, name, box, design, picture, prototype, test, EVERYTHING
about the production of a toy at some point or another is run by a
lawyer for lawsuit and copyright potential. They don't even have to
hire a seperate lawyer to fight you, they just get that ones working
on all that other stuff to spend 10 minutes writing up and filing a
lawsuit against you. The burdon then is on you. You have to prove
your ownership, you have to do the research, you have to make the
case...actually your lawyer does...and all that work is expensive.
You might win in the end but by then you would be bankrupt.
So yes they have the power...they have the power by simply being able
to outspend you.
Simple fact is Hasbro has chosen to leave the fan base alone. They do
NOT have to. Their is no obligation to. The only do it because no
harm and also its just good business.
It still amuses me how people slap copyright on everything nowadays
online...despite the fact that most of what they "copyrighting" is
being tossed on public domain or on privatly owned
websites...therefore basically turning ownership over to them. And
yes, legally gray area, lawyers could have a field day going back and
forth on it...but again the power resides in who has the cash for the
long haul. I am betting most of the online community that tosses
"copyright" on everything can't afford the long haul.
In the end it really doesn't matter who is right or wrong...the winner
is the one that has the bank or backing to fight to the end.
Thomas Hamann
>> I think you think Hasbro's got a lot more power than they actually
>> have.
>>
>> Thomas
>
>LOL wow you are desperate to win this argument.
I am not deperate to 'win' this argument at all. I think that you are
wrong about some things, that's all.
>It has nothing to do with power, it has to do with money. You are
>thinking small potatoes where hiring a lawyer is a big expensive deal.
> For them it expensive but a minor drop in the bucket. Every new
>character, name, box, design, picture, prototype, test, EVERYTHING
>about the production of a toy at some point or another is run by a
>lawyer for lawsuit and copyright potential.
Ah, yes, that explains why those Ehobby exclusives couldn't be named
after those Tonka/BANDAI Gobots, and why they found that out almost
too late...
And that also explains how Hasbro managed to loose some copyrights
they could have easily kept by spending some money on time.
Hasbro is not Microsoft.
> They don't even have to
>hire a seperate lawyer to fight you, they just get that ones working
>on all that other stuff to spend 10 minutes writing up and filing a
>lawsuit against you. The burdon then is on you. You have to prove
>your ownership, you have to do the research, you have to make the
>case...actually your lawyer does...and all that work is expensive.
>You might win in the end but by then you would be bankrupt.
Have you actually read my previous post? I am NOT in the ole US of A.
In the country where I live, you are innocent until proven guilty
(well, in the US it was that way too, until certain inane laws came
into being...). So it'd be <insert company>'s job to prove that yes, I
did break their copyright.
Seeing as the 'product' I would be using the name 'Transformers' on
would:
A) Reside on my hard disk, and they wouldn't have an older copy than
I,
B) Would be a free of charge, public domain document with no
commercial purpose,
and
C) currently, as of this time, only consists of fanfic, toy reviews,
and fan art that actually advertises their product free of charge,
...sueing me would be a real waste of money, time, and resource.
Besides, one person might not cost them much. If they were to pursuit
every single person using the transformers name, meaning a couple of
thousands of people (not to mention all those companies making
electrical transformers...), they'd loose quite a lot of money.
>
>So yes they have the power...they have the power by simply being able
>to outspend you.
>
That might work in the US, but not where I am.
>Simple fact is Hasbro has chosen to leave the fan base alone. They do
>NOT have to. Their is no obligation to. The only do it because no
>harm and also its just good business.
>
Have I said anything else?
>It still amuses me how people slap copyright on everything nowadays
>online...despite the fact that most of what they "copyrighting" is
>being tossed on public domain or on privatly owned
>websites...therefore basically turning ownership over to them.
*sigh*
There's 'copyright' and 'copyright'.
There's the commercial copyright, like many companies use.
And there's copyright in the 'intellectual property' sense. Which does
not only apply to *commercial* copyright, but to, well, 'intellectual
property'.
Unless you're of course suggesting that I could download all of
Seibertron.com, slap my name on it, and publish it on the internet as
my personal product....
I think not.
> And
>yes, legally gray area, lawyers could have a field day going back and
>forth on it...but again the power resides in who has the cash for the
>long haul. I am betting most of the online community that tosses
>"copyright" on everything can't afford the long haul.
>
>In the end it really doesn't matter who is right or wrong...the winner
>is the one that has the bank or backing to fight to the end.
Luckily, not where I live.
Thomas, we have this thing called 'justice', you know...
Zobovor the Multi-Faceted
>It still amuses me how people slap copyright on everything nowadays
>online...despite the fact that most of what they "copyrighting" is
>being tossed on public domain or on privatly owned
>websites...therefore basically turning ownership over to them.
Any original work you create is automatically warranted copyright protection,
whether or not you declare it to be a copyrighted work. Books and magazine
articles, for example, are every bit as much in the public domain as
privately-owned web sites, but the authors are afforded equal protection under
the law from having their work appropriated and redistributed by others.
The fact that it's quite effortless to cut-and-paste someone's web site and
claim it as your own, as compared to the more laborious process of retyping or
photocopying an entire book or magazine, doesn't change the legal ramifications
of doing so.
>In the end it really doesn't matter who is right or wrong...the winner
>is the one that has the bank or backing to fight to the end.
Having more money doesn't somehow make you magically exempt from obeying
copyright law. It might make you more morally corrupt, if you view the
consequences of breaking the law as paying a fine and nothing more, without
stopping to consider the reasons why the law was set in place to begin with.
Being able to easily pay the fines for violating copyright law doesn't make you
more right or less wrong about doing it. It just means you care less about
respecting and protecting other people's intellectual property.