[TOY] That Big TF Variations List - Part 04 (Decepticons O-Z)
M Sipher
THAT BIG TRANSFORMERS VARIATIONS LIST
Part Four : Decepticons O-Z (Generation 1, Generation 2, Machine Wars)
Maintained by M Sipher
http://tatooine.fortunecity.com/simak/109
April 13, 2001
***************************************************************************
OCTANE
Triple Changer - Fueler (D-72)
1. White, purple & silver tanker truck/767 jet
OCTOPUNCH
Small Pretender - Salvage
1. Yellow & burgundy crab
w/ burgundy, green & gray octo-man P-Shell
ONSLAUGHT
Combaticon - Combaticon Leader (D-64)
1. Blue, silver & olive cannon truck, metal chest
2. Blue, silver & olive cannon truck, plastic chest
3. Blue, silver & olive cannon truck, no rubsign indent (E)
4. Yellow, purple & black cannon truck (G2)
(Body to BRUTICUS)
(See also DOLLRAILER [8], GREAT CANNON [3])
OVERBITE
Seacon - Undersea Terminator (D-313)
1. Purple, blue & maroon monster shark
(Hand cannon to PIRANACON)
(See also SEA PHANTOM [6])
OVERKILL
Cassette - Warrior (D-109)
1. White & blue ceratosaur
2. White & blue ceratosaur, no rubsign indent
OVERLORD
GodMaster - Ambassador of Destruction (J) (D-307)
1. Black, blue, white & purple SR-71 jet and blue, white, gray & purple
tank/battle station
w/ MEGA blue & white and GIGA blue & black GodMaster figures
2. Black, blue, white & violet SR-71 jet and blue, white, gray & violet
tank/battle station
w/ MEGA blue & white and GIGA blue & black GodMaster figures
(Mega is a female character.)
POUNCE
Clone - Infiltrator (D-94 w/ WINGSPAN)
1. Blue, purple & white jaguar
POWER PUNCH
Micro Combiner Battle Squad - Aerial Counterattack (C-368)
1. Blue & black cannon transport (back half)
(Combines w/ DIRECT-HIT [3], comes w/ MicroTrailer #8 in Japan)
POWERDIVE ("Blade"-E)
Rotor Force - Air Attack Specialist (G2)
1. Green & black AH 64 Apache helicopter, black rotor disks
2. Green & black AH 64 Apache helicopter, red rotor disks
QUAKE
Double TargetMaster - Ground Assault
1. Burgundy, gray & blue tank (model unknown)
w/ HEATER (#7) purple & yellow lower 1-barrel and black & blue
TIPTOP (#8) lower 2-barrel small TM figures
RAGE ("Aquanaught"-E)
Stormtrooper - Leader (E)
1. Black & transparent red Dodge Viper
RAIRYU
DinoForce - Sea-Devil Soldier (J) (D-327)
1. Black & white four-legged monster
w/ gray & silver armored apatosaur P-Shell
(Lower body to DINOKING)
(See also BIRDBRAIN [3])
RAMJET
Decepticon - Warrior (D-56)
1. White, burgundy & black modified F-15 jet
2. Purple, black & turquoise modified F-15 jet (G2)
(See also DIRGE [3], SKYWARP, STARSCREAM, THRUST, THUNDERCRACKER)
RAMPAGE
Predacon - Gunner (D-74)
1. Orange, red & black tiger, metal waist
2. Orange, red & black tiger, plastic waist
(R-arm to PREDAKING)
RANSACK
Deluxe Insecticon - Warrior
1. Black, yellow & t-orange locust
RANSACK ("Blitz"-E)
Rotor Force - Air Recon Fighter (G2)
1. Purple & green F-4 Corsair plane, black rotor disks
2. Purple & green F-4 Corsair plane, red rotor disks
RATBAT
Cassette - Fuel Scout (D-61, D-107)
1. Black & purple bat, gold weapons, sticker detailing
2. Black & purple bat, silver weapons, painted detailing
RAVAGE ("Jaguar"-J)
Cassette - Saboteur (D-59, D-104)
1. Black & silver jaguar
RAZORCLAW
Predacon - Predacon Commander (D-73)
1. Black, yellow & orange lion, metal body
2. Black, yellow & orange lion, plastic body
(Body to PREDAKING)
RIPPERSNAPPER
Terrorcon - Terrorist (D-80)
1. White & blue land shark
2. White & blue land shark, no rubsign indent
(L-arm to ABOMINUS)
ROAD HUGGER
Micro Sports Car - Advance Assault
1. Purple & black Ferrari (model unknown)
(See also ROAD HUGGER [2])
ROAD PIG
Laser Cycle - Autobot Harassment (G2)
1. Black & gold Honda Goldwing motorcycle
(See also SOUNDWAVE)
ROADBLOCK
Ultra Pretender - Ground Forces Commander
1. Gold & gray Cybertronian Tank
w/ purple & black robot/jet Shell and green bulldozer Vehicle Shell
ROADBLOCK
Auto Roller - Front-Line Defense (G2)
1. Green & gray payloader
(See also AUTOCRUSHER [6])
ROADGRABBER
Pretender Vehicle - Gunner
1. Purple & black Cybertronian jet
w/ purple Vehicle P-Shell
ROLLER FORCE
Micro Race Track - Mobile Assault (D-341)
1. Maroon & blue off-road buggy
ROUGHSTUFF ("Missile Bull"-J)
Micro Transport - Aerial Defense (C-338)
1. Olive, gray & blue military transport cab
w/ olive, blue & gray missile trailer/jet
RUCKUS
Triggercon - Combat Assault
1. Tan & purple Baja buggy
RUMBLE
Cassette - Demolitions (D-102)
1. Red & black robot, metal feet
2. Red & black robot, painted details (E)
3. Red & black robot, black plastic feet, no leg stickers
(See also FRENZY [3])
RUNABOUT
Battlecharger - Shock Trooper
1. Black & red Trans Am
(See also RUNAMUCK)
RUNAMUCK
Battlecharger - Shock Trooper
1. White & orange Corvette
(See also RUNABOUT)
SANDSTORM
Battle Gaea - ? (J)
1. Light gray M-1A tank
(R-leg to BATTLEGAEA)
(See also BRAWL [3], DANGAR [8])
SCAVENGER
Constructicon - Mining & Salvage
1. Lime green & purple steam shovel
2. Yellow, purple & gray steam shovel (E)
3. Yellow & purple steam shovel (G2)
4. Orange & purple steam shovel (G2)
(R-arm to DEVASTATOR)
SCORPONOK ("Mega Zarak"-J)
HeadMaster - HeadMaster Leader (D-93)
1. Purple, green & gray scorpion/city
w/ LORD ZARAK cream & purple HM figure and FASTTRACK dark gray &
orange Cybertronian 6-wheeled tank/robot
(See also BLACK ZARAK [3])
SCOURGE
Decepticon - Sweep Leader
1. Blue & light blue Cybertronian skiff, blue paint on wings
2. Blue & light blue Cybertronian skiff, blue decals on wings
TargetMaster - Tracker
1. Blue & light blue Cybertronian skiff, decal wings, wider fists
w/ FRACAS gray & black short 1-barrel TM figure
(See also ARTFIRE/NIGHTSTICK [1])
SCOWL
Pretender Monster - Sonic Saboteur
1. Yellow & purple werewolf monster
w/ blue & gray rock monster P-Shell
(R-leg to MONSTRUCTOR)
(See also DORYU [3])
SCRAPPER
Constructicon - Construction Engineer
1. Lime green & purple payloader
2. Yellow, purple & gray payloader (E)
3. Yellow & purple payloader (G2)
4. Orange & purple payloader (G2)
(R-leg to DEVASTATOR)
SEAWING ("Kraken"-J)
Seacon - Undersea Recon
1. Gray, black & blue sea ray
(L-arm to PIRANACON)
(See also TERRAMANDER [6])
SHOCKWAVE ("Laserwave"-J)
Decepticon - Military Operations (49)
1. Purple & silver Cybertronian ray gun
Action Master - Military Operations
1. No transformation (purple & gray Cybertronian ray gun, no wire)
w/ FISTFIGHT black & purple robot/cannon
2. No transformation (Cybertronian ray gun, wire from arm to back)
w/ FISTFIGHT black & purple robot/cannon
(test-market release only)
SHRAPNEL ("Sharpnel"-J)
Insecticon - Electronic Warfare
1. Black & purple lamellicorn beetle, fins on back of weapon
2. Black & purple lamellicorn beetle, no fins on back of weapon
SHUTTLE GUNNER
Battle Gaea - ?
1. White & black Space Shuttle
(R-arm to BATTLEGAEA)
(See also BLAST OFF [3], SHUTTLER [8])
SINNERTWIN
Terrorcon - Sentry (D-81)
1. Yellow & turquoise two-headed dog
2. Yellow & turquoise two-headed dog, no rubsign indent
(R-leg to ABOMINUS)
SIXSHOT
Six-Changer - Solo TF Assault Group (D-98)
1. Green, black & white jet/tank/car/gun/puma
2. Light blue, black & white jet/tank/car/gun/puma (J)
(See also GREAT SHOT [1])
SIZZLE ("Fireball"-E)
Laser Rod - Street Warfare (G2)
1. Black & green hot rod (model unknown)
SKALOR ("Gulf"-J)
Seacon - Amphibious Assault (D-316)
1. Pink & blue coelacanth monster
(R-leg to PIRANACON)
(See also COELAGON [6])
SKULLCRUNCHER ("Skull"-J)
HeadMaster - Swamp Warrior (D-85)
1. Green, maroon & white alligator
w/ GRAX black & HM figure
SKULLGRIN ("Douros"-J)
Pretender - Siege Warrior (D-202)
1. Dark gray & purple Cybertronian tank
w/ white, gray & purple skeletal minotaur P-Shell
SKYDIVE ("DarkJet"-J)
Predator - Scientific Advisor (E) (TF-06 w/ FLASH [1])
1. Purple & black F-23 jet
SKYHOPPER
Micro Base - Aerial Assault Commander
1. Gray & olive Rafale A jet
w/ tan, purple & gray helicopter/base
(See also DEADWHEELER [1], STORMCLOUD)
SKYJACK
CyberJet - Spy (G2)
1. Black & red F-117A fighter jet
(See also AIR RAID [1])
SKYQUAKE
Predator - Air Commandant (E)
1. Green, black, bronze & purple bomber plane
(See also STARSCREAM)
SKYSTALKER ("Thunder Arrow"-J)
MicroMaster - Interstellar Assault
1. Orange & purple Porsche 911
w/ gray & blue space shuttle transport/base and blue mini-shuttle
(See also METROBOMB [3], RABBICRATER [2])
SKYWARP
Decepticon - Warrior
1. Black, purple & silver F-15 jet, hollow tailfins
2. Black, purple & silver F-15 jet, solid tailfins
(See also DIRGE [3], RAMJET, STARSCREAM, THRUST, THUNDERCRACKER)
Decepticon Machine - Warrior (MW)
1. White, black & yellow Saab Grippen jet
(See also DIRGE [6], THUNDERCRACKER)
SLEDGE
Micro Combiner Constructor Squad - Battlefield Fortification (C-367)
1. Orange & yellow dump truck (front half)
(Combines w/ HAMMER [3], comes w/ MicroTrailer #7 in Japan)
(See also TERROR-TREAD)
SLICER
Action Master - Massive Assault Specialist (E)
1. No transformation (colors unknown)
w/ purple, red & black 4WD vehicle/exosuit
(See also WHEELJACK [2])
SLOG
Pretender Monster - Combat Artist
1. Gold & black two-legged triceratops monster
w/ red spike-armed monster P-Shell
(Upper body to MONSTRUCTOR)
(See also KAKURYU [3])
SLUGFEST
Cassette - Messenger (D-108)
1. Lime green & red stegosaur
2. Lime green & red stegosaur, no rubsign indent
SLUGSLINGER
TargetMaster - Air Defense (D-90)
1. Gray & light blue Cybertronian twin-cockpit jet
w/ CALIBURST blue & gray "backpack barrel" TM figure
SMOKESCREEN
Decepticon - N/A (G2) (w/ DREADWING)
1. Black & blue jet (unknown type)
(See also STARSCREAM, STARSCREAM [6])
SNAPDRAGON
HeadMaster Horrorcon - Interceptor
1. White & black Cybertronian jet/dragon
w/ KRUNK white & purple HM Horrorcon head
SNAPTRAP ("Turtlar"-J)
Seacon - Seacon Leader
1. Blue & pink turtle
(Body to PIRANACON)
(See also HALFSHELL [6])
SNARE ("FlareJet"-J)
Predator - Surveillance (E) (TF-09 w/ BOSS [1])
1. Red & black Grumman X-Z9 jet, rounded missile base
2. Red & black Grumman X-Z9 jet, finned missile base
SNARLER
Pretender Beast - Assault Warrior
1. Gold & purple boar
w/ green & silver boar P-Shell
SOUNDBLASTER
Decepticon - Intelligence Officer (J) (D-101 w/ BUZSAW [3])
1. Black & silver cassette player
(See also SOUNDWAVE)
TF Junior - Intelligence Officer (J)
1. Black & silver cassette player
(See also SOUNDWAVE)
SOUNDWAVE
Decepticon - Communications (17) (w/ BUZZSAW [3])
1. Blue & silver cassette player
2. Blue & silver cassette player, extra detailing on tape door
(Comes w/ headphones and other accessories in Japan)
(See also SOUNDBLASTER)
TF Junior - ? (J)
1. Blue & silver cassette player
Action Master - Communications
1. No transformation (blue & silver cassette player)
w/ WINGTHING black & red bat/cannon
Go-Bot - Communications (G2)
1. Yellow, blue & maroon NASCAR stock car
2. Yellow, gray & red NASCAR stock car (J)
(See also GEARHEAD [1], W.A.R.S. [7])
Laser Cycle - Communications (G2)
1. Blue, black & chrome Honda Goldwing motorcycle
(Unreleased, 6 produced)
(See also ROAD PIG)
Mega Machine - Communications (MW)
1. Silver, brown & black ICBM launcher tank
(See also STALKER)
SPACE CASE
CyberJet - Air Recon (G2)
1. White & red XF-29 fighter jet
(See also STRAFE [2])
SPACESHOT
Micro Combiner - Ground Infantry
1. Gray & blue B-1 bomber (back half)
w/ yellow & olive anti-aircraft tank/assault base
(Combines w/ BLACKOUT [3])
SPARKSTALKER
Firecon - Cryptologist
1. Maroon, white & gray insect monster
2. Blue, t-pink & green insect monster (E G2)
(See also JAVIL [3])
SPECTRO
Reflector - Reconnaissance (w/ SPYGLASS & VIEWFINDER)
1. Red & black camera shutter, solid rifle
2. Red & black camera shutter, hollow rifle
(Combines w/ SPYGLASS & VIEWFINDER to form REFLECTOR)
SPINISTER
Double TargetMaster - Aerial Assault
1. Purple, blue & black AH 64 Apache helicopter
w/ HAIRSPLITTER (#9) purple & gray lower 2-barrel and SINGE (#10)
black & gray upper 2-barrel small TM figures
SPYGLASS
Reflector - Reconnaissance (w/ SPECTRO & VIEWFINDER)
1. Blue & gray camera flashcube
(Combines w/ SPECTRO & VIEWFINDER to form REFLECTOR)
SQUAWKTALK
Cassette - Translator
1. Green & gray condor
(Combines w/ BEASTBOX [3] to form SQUAWKBOX)
SQUEEZEPLAY ("Cancer"-J)
Small HeadMaster - Saboteur
1. Purple & blue clawed cobra monster
w/ LOKOS purple & blue Small HM head
STALKER
Predator - Communications (E)
1. Green & maroon ICBM launcher tank
(See also SOUNDWAVE)
STARSCREAM
Decepticon - Aerospace Commander (22)
1. Gray, red & blue F-15 jet, hollow tailfins
2. Gray, red & blue F-15 jet, solid tailfins
3. White, red & gray F-15 jet (G2)
(See also DIRGE [3], RAMJET, SKYWARP, THRUST, THUNDERCRACKER)
Pretender Classic - Aerospace Commander
1. Gray, red & blue F-15 jet
w/ green & brown armored human P-Shell
Legend - Aerospace Commander
1. Gray, red & blue F-15 jet (K-Mart exclusive)
Action Master Blaster - Ground Assault
1. No transformation (red, blue & gray F-15)
w/ TURBO JET blue & black jet/missile launcher
(See also THUNDERCRACKER)
Decepticon - N/A (G2) (w/ MEGATRON)
1. Black, purple & gray jet (type unknown)
(Unreleased. 24 produced, 15 confirmed.)
(See also SMOKESCREEN, STARSCREAM [6])
Ultra Machine - Pursuit & Capture (MW)
1. Black, dark gray & gray blue bomber plane
(See also SKYQUAKE)
STAXX
Power Master - Highway Destruction (E G2)
1. Blue & olive tractor-trailer cab
STONECRUNCHER
Micro Combiner Constructor Squad - Battlefield Fortification (C-367)
1. Yellow & orange crane (front half)
(Combines w/ EXCAVATOR [3], comes w/ MicroTrailer #7 in Japan)
(See also RETRO [2])
STORMCLOUD ("Starcloud"-J)
Micro Air Strike Patrol - Espionage (C-336)
1. Purple & black Rafale A jet
(Comes w/ MicroTrailer #15 in Japan)
(See also SKYHOPPER)
STRANGLEHOLD
Small Pretender - Enforcer
1. Yellow & green rhinoceros
w/ burgundy & white armored human P-Shell
SUBMARAUDER ("Gilmer"-J)
Pretender - Undersea Warfare
1. Purple & blue Cybertronian submarine
w/ blue & gray fishman P-Shell
SWINDLE
Combaticon - Munitions Expert (D-68)
1. Tan & purple jeep, metal chest
2. Tan & gray jeep, plastic chest
3. Tan & purple jeep, no rubsign indent (E)
4. Red & purple jeep (G2)
(R-leg to BRUTICUS)
(See also GREEJEEBER [8], LEELAND [3])
TAILWIND ("Windrim"-J)
Micro Air Strike Patrol - Espionage (C-336)
1. Blue & gray A-10 Thunderbolt II plane
(Comes w/ MicroTrailer #15 in Japan)
(See also HOT HOUSE [1])
TAKE-OFF
Action Master - Aerial Recon (E)
1. No transformation (gray, black & red car, model unknown)
w/ SCREECH blue & green eagle/backpack
TALON ("MoonJet"-J)
Predator - Advance Fighter (E) (TF-08 w/ HURRICANE [1])
1. Aqua & black F-15 jet
TANTRUM
Predacon - Fueler (D-76)
1. Yellow, red & black bull, metal body
2. Yellow, red & black bull, plastic body
(L-leg to PREDAKING)
TARGET HAWK
Battle Gaea - ? (J)
1. Olive green UH-60 Sikorsky Blackhawk helicopter
(L-arm to BATTLEGAEA)
(See also HEPTAR [8], VORTEX)
TENTAKIL
Seacon - Undersea Demolitions (D-317)
1. Pink, blue & maroon squid monster
(L-leg to PIRANACON)
(See also SCYLLA [6])
TERRADIVE
SkyScorcher - Advance Fighter (G2)
1. Black & green A-7 Corsair II jet
(See also "TERRADIVE" [2])
TERROR-TREAD
Micro Combiner Transport - Demolitions
1. Green & red dump truck (front half)
w/ purple & red cannon transport/artillery station
(Combines w/ CEMENT-HEAD [3])
(See also SLEDGE)
THRUST
Decepticon - Warrior (D-57)
1. Burgundy & black VTOL-modified F-15 jet
(See also DIRGE [3], RAMJET, SKYWARP, STARSCREAM, THUNDERCRACKER)
THUNDERCRACKER
Decepticon - Warrior
1. Blue, black & silver F-15 jet, hollow tailfins
2. Blue, black & silver F-15 jet, solid tailfins
(See also DIRGE [3], RAMJET, SKYWARP, STARSCREAM, THRUST)
Action Master - Warrior (E)
1. No transformation (colros unknown)
w/ jet/exo-suit vehicle (colors unknown)
(See also STARSCREAM)
Decepticon Machine - Rebel Warrior (MW)
1. Olive, brown & black Saab Grippen jet
(See also DIRGE [6], SKYWARP)
THUNDERWING
Mega Pretender - Aerial Espionage
1. Tan & blue Cybertronian jet
w/ tan, blue & gray robot/jet P-Shell
(See also BLACK SHADOW [3])
TRACER
Micro Military Patrol - Front Line Assault (C-363)
1. Black & tan AH 64 Apache helicopter
(Comes w/ MicroTrailer #3 in Japan)
TREADSHOT
Action Master - Gunslinger
1. No transformation (black & gray snub-nosed revolver)
w/ CATGUT black & red-orange panther/cannon
TRIGGERHAPPY
TargetMaster - Gunner (D-88)
1. Dark blue & gray Cybertronian gunship
w/ BLOWPIPE gray & blue double "backpack barrel" TM figure
TRYPTICON ("Dinosaurer"-J)
Decepticon - Assault Base (D-63)
1. Black, purple & green battle station/city
w/ BRUNT purple tank & FULL-TILT purple Cybertronian car/robot
(See also GIGASTORM [6])
TF Junior - ? (J)
1. Black, purple & green battle station/city
TURBO-MASTER
Action Master Elite - Aerial Marauder (E)
1. Red & gray Cybertronian VTOL jet
VANQUISH
Micro Combiner Battle Squad - Aerial Counterattack (C-369)
1. Black & blue SR-71 Blackbird jet (back half)
(Combines w/ FIRESHOT [3], comes w/ MicroTrailer #9 in Japan)
VENOM
Deluxe Insecticon - Psychological Warfare
1. Lime green, orange, white & t-orange cicada
VIEWFINDER
Reflector - Reconnaissance (w/ SPECTRO & SPYGLASS)
1. Blue & gray camera lens
(Combines w/ SPECTRO & SPYGLASS to form REFLECTOR)
VORTEX ("Border"-J)
Combaticon - Interrogation (D-66)
1. Gray & purple UH-60 Sikorsky Blackhawk helicopter, metal chest
2. Gray & purple UH-60 Sikorsky Blackhawk helicopter, plastic chest
3. Gray & purple Sikorsky Blackhawk, no rubsign indent (E)
4. Blue & purple UH-60 Sikorsky Blackhawk helicopter (G2)
(L-arm to BRUTICUS)
(See also HEPTAR [8], TARGET HAWK)
WEIRDWOLF
HeadMaster - Tracker (D-86)
1. Yellow, green & white wolf
w/ MONZO gray & green HM head
WHISPER
Micro Air Strike Patrol - Espionage (C-336)
1. Black & purple stealth fighter (model unknown)
(Comes w/ MicroTrailer #15 in Japan)
(See also GROUNDSHAKER [1])
WILDFLY
Pretender Monster - Aerial Assault
1. Yellow & red bipedal winged monster
w/ purple & green insect monster P-Shell
(L-arm to MONSTRUCTOR)
(See also YOKURYU)
WILDRIDER
Stunticon - Terrorist (D-53)
1. Dark gray & red Ferrari
2. Yellow & blue Ferrari (unreleased G2, 4 known to exist)
(R-leg to MENASOR)
WINDRAZOR ("Tornado"-E)
SkyScorcher - Leader (G2)
1. Gray & blue F-16A jet
(See also WINDRAZOR [2])
WINDSWEEPER
Triggercon - Air Defense
1. Red & brown F-111 jet
WINGSPAN
Clone - Data Processor (D-94 w/ POUNCE)
1. Blue, purple & white hawk
YOKURYU
DinoForce - Light-Speed Soldier (J) (D-326)
1. Blue & white bipedal winged monster
w/ brown & silver armored pteranadon P-Shell
(R-arm to DINOKING)
(See also WILDFLY)
***************************************************************************
Total number of entries : 168
***************************************************************************
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with proper credit to its author.
M "What's Wrong With Bootblacking? We Both Like It VERY MUCH" Sipher
--
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Hotdog Divebomb
> OVERBITE
> Seacon - Undersea Terminator (D-313)
> 1. Purple, blue & maroon monster shark
> (Hand cannon to PIRANACON)
> (See also SEA PHANTOM [6])
You might want to mention he was called "Jawbreaker" in Europe.
> QUAKE
> Double TargetMaster - Ground Assault
> 1. Burgundy, gray & blue tank (model unknown)
German Leopard Tank I believe
==
Brendocon
I'm gonna get ignored again, I can tell
Lars Eriksson
>"M Sipher" <msi...@mindspring.com> wrote
>> OVERBITE
>> Seacon - Undersea Terminator (D-313)
>> 1. Purple, blue & maroon monster shark
>> (Hand cannon to PIRANACON)
>> (See also SEA PHANTOM [6])
>
>You might want to mention he was called "Jawbreaker" in Europe.
In *parts* of Europe in that case. He was called Overbite here in
Scandinavia. (The distinction is important - it looks really silly when
people like for instance J.E. Alvarez claims that Tracks was released in red
in Europe, when it was just a _variant_ which co-existed alongside the
regular version in a _limited_ area).
Does anyone know of a scan of the Jawbreaker version, by the way?
I have heard about it for years, but I've never seen it with my own eyes.
--
Lars Eriksson, grounds...@chello.se
Personal home page: http://home.swipnet.se/groundsplitter/
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TF-code: G++ FR+ FW- M+ #603 D+++ ADA N++ W++ B+++ OP BC98++ CN+++
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NTFA home page: http://members.nbci.com/ntfa/
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M Sipher
news:MA%B6.2557$Qp1....@nntp1.chello.se...
> Hotdog Divebomb wrote:
> >"M Sipher" <msi...@mindspring.com> wrote
> >> OVERBITE
>
> >You might want to mention he was called "Jawbreaker" in Europe.
>
> In *parts* of Europe in that case. He was called Overbite here in
> Scandinavia. (The distinction is important - it looks really silly when
> people like for instance J.E. Alvarez claims that Tracks was released in
red
> in Europe, when it was just a _variant_ which co-existed alongside the
> regular version in a _limited_ area).
Well, no more silly than calling Ironfist "Ironhide" or using the awful
"Deszaras" and "Minelba" and such...
But as for the list, well, I'm not terribly keen on listing every individual
country in which something was or was not named something. If I haven't
already (I was more concerned with making sure I had the last years' worth
of toys in the damn thing), I'll amend the Intro portion that explains the
(E) marking something along those lines for the next update.
M "Actually, Now That I Think About It, I Should Probably Change The
(B)=Brazil Markings To (S)=South America..." Sipher
Lars Eriksson
>Lars Eriksson <grounds...@chello.se> wrote in message
>news:MA%B6.2557$Qp1....@nntp1.chello.se...
>
>> Hotdog Divebomb wrote:
>> >You might want to mention he was called "Jawbreaker" in Europe.
>>
>> In *parts* of Europe in that case. He was called Overbite here in
>> Scandinavia.
>
>country in which something was or was not named something.
Of course not. That would be a monumentous task that would have to
involve a lot of European TransFans, since the releases vary so much
from country to country.
My post wasn't meant as a request for a more exact description of the
countries, but more as a warning not to generalize - I think it's important
to emphasize that any European variants are usually just *one* variant, and
not necessarily the *only* available version in our part of the world.
Your list doesn't make any such claims, but I think that many people, used
to the Japanese versions being sold *in place* of the worldwide versions in
Japan, still automatically assume that this is the case for the European
versions as well.
> If I haven't
>already (I was more concerned with making sure I had the last years' worth
>of toys in the damn thing), I'll amend the Intro portion that explains the
>(E) marking something along those lines for the next update.
Well, the Intro already has a sentence explaining that "the majority of the
American toys were available in most major markets", so you have already
covered that bit actually. At least as far as the toys are concerned.
It becomes more complicated when we get to the names, since they can be
local to one country, and an "E" next to the name once again makes people
believe the name is used in the whole region. Here I would actually like to
have more precise description, or at least an indication that it's just
*one* possible name. Saying that Overbite was called Jawbreaker in Europe is
just as misleading as saying that Jazz was called Saxo over here, or that
Onslaught was called Oslat. It's true for at least one country in each of
these cases, but not for the entire region.
Hooper X
>local to one country, and an "E" next to the name once again makes people
>believe the name is used in the whole region.
Well then. You damn Europeans need to get one damn language. Use ENGLISH. It
was good enough for Abraham Lincoln, it was good enough for Chaucer, and it was
good enough for the Bible. So there.
-HX, quasi-tongue-in-cheek.
"Vooral die smeerlap van een Hooper X !! QWe hate yopu !!!!!!!!!" -Drunken
Dutchmen
http://www.sexsexworld.com <-PLEASE KILL MY LONELY.
"You people are stupid" - Trypticon X
To contact me, take off that stupid looking hat you wear.
Zobovor
>Here I would actually like to have more precise description, or at least
>an indication that it's just *one* possible name.
Me, I thought it was already understood that the Seacon Jawbreaker, for
example, was *a* toy available in Europe, not the *only* one available on the
hemisphere.
M Sipher
> My post wasn't meant as a request for a more exact description of the
> countries, but more as a warning not to generalize - I think it's
important
> to emphasize that any European variants are usually just *one* variant,
and
> not necessarily the *only* available version in our part of the world.
> Your list doesn't make any such claims, but I think that many people, used
> to the Japanese versions being sold *in place* of the worldwide versions
in
> Japan, still automatically assume that this is the case for the European
> versions as well.
Well, again, I'm sure the intro's wording kinda covers this with "toy or
variant". Still, I get idiots who keep asking me how much I'm selling items
off the list for, depsite the all-caps NOT A FOR-SALE LIST warning. There's
no helping some people.
(It's even worse for my MegaMan/RockMan Merchandise Archive. I think I have
the "not selling anything" note on there on pretty much every page you go
through from the main page of my site to the individual listing pages of the
Archive itself, in bold print. I don't think I've gone a week without at
least ONE email on the matter. Most of them from people with screen names
like "dbz36...@aol.com" and with no capitalization or punctuation within
the body of the "message". It's very depressing.)
> It becomes more complicated when we get to the names, since they can be
> local to one country, and an "E" next to the name once again makes people
> believe the name is used in the whole region. Here I would actually like
to
> have more precise description, or at least an indication that it's just
> *one* possible name. Saying that Overbite was called Jawbreaker in Europe
is
> just as misleading as saying that Jazz was called Saxo over here, or that
> Onslaught was called Oslat. It's true for at least one country in each of
> these cases, but not for the entire region.
I'd have to look over this again (later), but I think some of those I use
"F" for "French" and such when it comes to some of the multi-names. While I
can see what you're saying, but there's a matter of having too many
"markers" and making the list more confusing than it needs to be.
Besides, I think if you ask pretty much any European internet-connected TF
fan about "Jazz", they'll most likely know who you're talking about. If they
don't, well then you can look at the list and run down the list of names he
was called in various parts of Europe until you hit the right one.
M "Though If The International Names Become As Numerous As I Think They
Might, I May Do Some Minor Restructuring To The Name Portion Of the Entries"
M Sipher
news:20010414215345...@ng-fe1.aol.com...
Heh. Now that I think about it, if by now someone doesn't realize Europe has
a great damn lot of different countries and languages that would cause these
toys to have a great many names, well, then...
Then they probably think the dinosaurs were wiped out a mere four million
years ago or that Antarctica is just a giant iceberg.
M "And Nobody On ATT Is THAT Godsdamn Stupid... Right?" Sipher
SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo Himself
Why this tone, Zob? He's only trying to make a small suggestion to
avoid possible confusion, and I don't think it's deserving of remarks
like this.
--
Rikard Bakke
silve...@os.enitel.no
The Cybertron Chronicle
http://members.nbci.com/cybertronchronicle/
Transformers Fan Code
G++ FR FW+ #74 D+ AA+ N++ W++ B++ OQP BC98++ BC99++ BC2000++ BC2001++ CN+++ OM+
Zobovor
>> Me, I thought it was already understood that the Seacon Jawbreaker,
>> for example, was *a* toy available in Europe, not the *only* one
>> available on the hemisphere.
>
>Why this tone, Zob? He's only trying to make a small suggestion to
>avoid possible confusion, and I don't think it's deserving of remarks
>like this.
And I was only attempting to point out that I personally didn't see any
inherent confusion.
I mean, it would be entirely correct to say that Beast Machine is a North
American toy line, but I don't think people would automatically assume that
they'll be able to find Spy Streak or the Motorcycle Drone in Mexico right now.
:)
Lars Eriksson
Pardon? Zobovor, I suggest that you reread the whole thread, because you
seem to have completely missed the point. I'm not debating the availability
of certain toys in different areas of the world, but how to properly
mark alternative names.
Hotdog Divebomb said that Overbite is called Jawbreaker in Europe,
and I pointed out that that name was only used in *parts* of Europe
(at least in the UK, and possibly other areas as well). I think it's
important that a distinction is made, since it's easy to assume that
the alternative name is used in the *entire* area.
It is true for all Japanese names - they are always used in place of the
American names - and for *some* European names, but not all of them.
Let's take an example from Sipher's TF Variations list:
RANSACK ("Blitz"-E)
In this case it's natural to read the description as that Ransack's
European name is Blitz, and unless there are translations that I'm
unaware of, it's completely true - "Blitz" was (probably) used in the
whole of Europe, and the name Ransack wasn't used at all.
Now, let's modify Overbite's entry to include the name "Jawbreaker",
using the codes Sipher is using for his list:
OVERBITE ("Jawbreaker"-E)
Do you see what I mean? Unless you're familiar with the European
releases, it's easy to assume that Overbite was called Jawbreaker in
the whole of Europe, and not just in the UK.
It might not sound like a big deal, but I'm seeing these mix-ups every
once in a while, on the newsgroups, on websites, and on eBay. It goes
on my nerves that people are so ignorant about the European TF market,
often treating the whole area as if it was just one country. That's
why I wanted to clarify Hotdog Divebomb's comment, to try to prevent
the confusion from spreading even further.
Regarding the TF Variations List, a more exact country designation
won't clear up the confusion for good, but it can help us fight it.
Zobovor
>>I mean, it would be entirely correct to say that Beast Machine is a
>>North American toy line, but I don't think people would automatically
>>assume that they'll be able to find Spy Streak or the Motorcycle
>>Drone in Mexico right now.
>
>Pardon? Zobovor, I suggest that you reread the whole thread, because
>you seem to have completely missed the point. I'm not debating the
>availability of certain toys in different areas of the world, but how to
>properly mark alternative names.
Well, we're on even ground, then, because you've completely missed my point as
well. :)
I'm not debating toy availability either. I simply used that as an example to
illustrate that the denotation of a toy as a North American release does not
necessarily indicate that it is not available in every country within North
America, any more than referring to Overbite being called "Jawbreaker" in
Europe automatically means that the name was used in every single country
within Europe. Back where I come from, we call this an analogy. :)
>It might not sound like a big deal, but I'm seeing these mix-ups every
>once in a while, on the newsgroups, on websites, and on eBay. It goes
>on my nerves that people are so ignorant about the European TF
>market, often treating the whole area as if it was just one country.
Somehow I doubt that people digging up toys in their attic and hocking them on
eBay have ever heard of M Sipher, let alone have the inclination to research
his list and figure out that their Japanese Terrorcon Blot is actually named
"Butt." I mean, people are probably more likely to stumble across the eBay
auction if the seller used the Japanese name, but still...
If you ask me, M Sipher's list *already* does a lot of good, since chances are
pretty good that your average, casual fan has no clue that half these toys even
*exist,* let alone have two or three alternate names. Your concerns seem to be
based on the idea that somebody *might* misinterpret the wealth of information
in the list, but I don't see any evidence that anybody ever has. :)
--
Zobovor
ZMFTS: We'll transform your day into... an adventure!
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html
SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo Himself
> SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo Himself wrote:
>
> > > Me, I thought it was already understood that the Seacon Jawbreaker,
> > > for example, was *a* toy available in Europe, not the *only* one
> > > available on the hemisphere.
> >
> > Why this tone, Zob? He's only trying to make a small suggestion to
> > avoid possible confusion, and I don't think it's deserving of remarks
> > like this.
>
> And I was only attempting to point out that I personally didn't see any
> inherent confusion.
The operative word being "personally." You know, you're not actually
talking just from a personal perspective when you say you thought "it
was alreadyunderstood that the Seacon Jawbreaker..." In other words,
what you're really saying is, "This is something just about everybody
knows, really." Do you presume to speak for the vast majority?
> I mean, it would be entirely correct to say that Beast Machine is a North
> American toy line, but I don't think people would automatically assume
> that they'll be able to find Spy Streak or the Motorcycle Drone in Mexico
> right now. :)
I don't see what difference that argument makes. Lars is talking about the
fact that some regions of Europe got the toy under the name of Overbite,
and other regions got the toy under the name of Jawbreaker. He's talking
about the NAME of the toy, not about its availability. In short, all Lars was
asking was if Sipher could make a general note about some toys being
named differently (for whatever reason) in various European regions. He
wasn't complaining or asking him to rewrite the whole thing...
Lars Eriksson
>Lars Eriksson wrote:
>>Pardon? Zobovor, I suggest that you reread the whole thread, because
>>you seem to have completely missed the point. I'm not debating the
>>availability of certain toys in different areas of the world, but how to
>>properly mark alternative names.
>Well, we're on even ground, then, because you've completely missed my point
>as well. :)
>I'm not debating toy availability either. I simply used that as an example
>to illustrate that the denotation of a toy as a North American release does
>not necessarily indicate that it is not available in every country within
>North America, any more than referring to Overbite being called
>"Jawbreaker" in Europe automatically means that the name was used in every
>single country within Europe. Back where I come from, we call this an
>analogy. :)
It's an analogy that does not hold good, since the North American countries
in your example don't have any other versions of Spy Streak and the
Motorcycle Drone. But Overbite *was* available with that name in the larger
part of Europe, and by saying that he "was called Jawbreaker in Europe",
you are leading people into believing that the name was used in the whole
region instead of in just one country. That's just the way people work.
Let me reverse the roles for a moment, by claiming that Jetstorm is
called L'Orageux in North America, and Blackarachnia is called Araña Negra.
Technically I'm right, since Jetstorm *is* called L'Orageux in Canada,
and Blackarachnia *is* called Araña Negra in Mexico, but it will cause a
lot of confusion.
Now no one here would believe that these names are used *everywhere* in
North America since the majority are Americans and everyone is well
familiar with the English names, but I'm not so sure that the same is true
for the European releases. Especially not since our G2 toys *did* get
different names, in the whole area.
If you're unfamiliar with the European releases and learn that Ransack was
called Blitz in the whole of Europe, why shouldn't you believe that
Overbite was called Jawbreaker in the whole region as well?
>>It might not sound like a big deal, but I'm seeing these mix-ups every
>>once in a while, on the newsgroups, on websites, and on eBay. It goes
>>on my nerves that people are so ignorant about the European TF
>>market, often treating the whole area as if it was just one country.
>
>Somehow I doubt that people digging up toys in their attic and hocking them
>on eBay have ever heard of M Sipher, let alone have the inclination to
>research his list and figure out that their Japanese Terrorcon Blot is
>actually named "Butt." I mean, people are probably more likely to stumble
>across the eBay auction if the seller used the Japanese name, but still...
People who dig up their toys in their attic aren't likely to find an Oslat
or a Saxo either, unless they live in Italy or France, respectively. Often
the people who sell "European" toys online are *American* dealers, who are
either ignorant of the true background of these toys, or who just ignore it.
There's not much we can do about the dealers, but we can at least try to
keep the ignorance from spreading on the web and on this newsgroup, by being
more careful about how we classify the toys *here*.
>If you ask me, M Sipher's list *already* does a lot of good, since chances
>are pretty good that your average, casual fan has no clue that half these
>toys even *exist,* let alone have two or three alternate names.
True, the Variations List is an invaluable resource, but just because it
does a lot of good, it doesn't mean that we're not allows to come with
suggestions for how to improve it.
> Your concerns seem to be
>based on the idea that somebody *might* misinterpret the wealth of
>information in the list, but I don't see any evidence that anybody ever
>has. :)
Better safe than sorry, I say.
Even if you were right, and I wouldn't be so sure, it's always a good idea
to clear up anything that could lead to misinterpretations.
M Sipher
> Zobovor wrote:
>
> It's an analogy that does not hold good, since the North American
countries
> in your example don't have any other versions of Spy Streak and the
> Motorcycle Drone. But Overbite *was* available with that name in the
larger
> part of Europe, and by saying that he "was called Jawbreaker in Europe",
> you are leading people into believing that the name was used in the whole
> region instead of in just one country. That's just the way people work.
We have Canada. And Canadaian TFs go by upwards three different names thanks
to multi-lingual packaging.
But guess what. Those French and Spanish (or whatever) names are both going
to end up classified as "European" names.
I don't particularly feel like wading through every continental European
country out there to dig up where every name was and was not used.
Instead, I am simply going to list every one I can find under the big header
"European market". If it sounds French, then chances are it's from France
(and Canada). If it sounds Swedish, then it could be from about eighteen
different countries, but whataddyagonnado.
Let me cut-and-paste from the new name layout to be used in the next
posting.
ARMORDILLO
ARMA (J), TATOU/ARMADILLO (E)
Basic Beast - Desert Combat (VS-X1)
1. Orange & gray Brazillian giant armadillo
(Comes w/ SNAPPER [6] & volcano playset in Japan)
(See also BUMP)
Fair enough?
M "And I've Put Warnings About Varying European Names In The Intro. And
That's Realy About As Far As I Plan On Taking This" Sipher
Lars Eriksson
>Lars Eriksson <grounds...@chello.se> wrote in message
>news:%9qC6.2838$Qp1....@nntp1.chello.se...
>> you are leading people into believing that the name was used in the whole
>> region instead of in just one country. That's just the way people work.
>We have Canada. And Canadaian TFs go by upwards three different names
>thanks to multi-lingual packaging.
>But guess what. Those French and Spanish (or whatever) names are both going
>to end up classified as "European" names.
In that case I suggest that you change the designation to something
completely different, because that's only going to muddle up everything
even more.
As if it wasn't bad enough that local names are attributed to the releases
in the whole of Europe, now you're planning to add names that have never
been used over here.
>I don't particularly feel like wading through every continental European
>country out there to dig up where every name was and was not used.
I have never suggested that you should - I just asked for a different
designation (or perhaps a strong emphasis in the foreword) so it doesn't
look like one name was automatically used in the whole region. It's
virtually impossible to track down which names were used in every European
country, but it can't be that difficult to put a special marker on the
names which differ from the norm, like the Seacon Jawbreaker - in this
case, a simple (UK) tag in place of the usual (E) tag should have been
sufficient.
>Instead, I am simply going to list every one I can find under the big
>header "European market". If it sounds French, then chances are it's
>from France (and Canada).
*Or* Canada, even. Unfortunately I have lost my notes, but a few years ago
I noticed that a few toys had different names in Canada and France. I don't
know if it's true for every TF lineup from 1984 and onwards, but it appears
that France have been using the regular names for the Beast Wars characters.
The same is true for Spain by the way, so there's a difference from the
Mexican names as well.
>Let me cut-and-paste from the new name layout to be used in the next
>posting.
>ARMORDILLO
> ARMA (J), TATOU/ARMADILLO (E)
> Basic Beast - Desert Combat (VS-X1)
> 1. Orange & gray Brazillian giant armadillo
> (Comes w/ SNAPPER [6] & volcano playset in Japan)
> (See also BUMP)
>
>Fair enough?
You can add "Armodillo" to that list. That's the Italian name.
He appear to have been called Armordillo in the other European countries...
Zobovor
>>But guess what. Those French and Spanish (or whatever) names are
>>both going to end up classified as "European" names.
>
>In that case I suggest that you change the designation to something
>completely different, because that's only going to muddle up everything
>even more.
Yeah, people are going to get confused and think that France and Spain are
actually in Europe somewhere.
Lars, why don't you create your own list? I'm sure you don't have anything
else going on in your life or even other Transformers-related projects to
attend to, and surely it wouldn't take any time at all to painstakingly hunt
down and research every conceivable name variation in existence. Don't forget
the knockoff toys, too, since otherwise somebody might confuse them for the
genuine article.
Zobovor... <--be mindful of the ellipsis, which usually denotes major
tongue-in-cheekishness.
Zobovor
SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo Himself wrote:
>> And I was only attempting to point out that I personally didn't see any
>> inherent confusion.
>
>The operative word being "personally." You know, you're not actually
>talking just from a personal perspective when you say you thought "it
>was already understood that the Seacon Jawbreaker..." In other words,
>what you're really saying is, "This is something just about everybody
>knows, really." Do you presume to speak for the vast majority?
Let's try this again. Lars seems to be focusing on the possibility that people
are going to misinterpret the list. All I was trying to do was offer a
counter-viewpoint--namely, that I understood exactly how the list functioned.
I suppose you could extrapolate that since I got it, at least a few other
people are likely to comprehend it as well. Since no one else has bothered to
chime in, I guess we'll never know for sure.
Since I did not say at any point that "this is something just about everybody
knows" (nor did I insult Lars directly or indirectly), I'll politely thank you
not to intentionally misinterpret my words, especially when I've already
offered a precise clarification as to my true intentions.
>> I mean, it would be entirely correct to say that Beast Machine is a
>> North American toy line, but I don't think people would automatically
>> assume that they'll be able to find Spy Streak or the Motorcycle
>> Drone in Mexico right now. :)
>
>I don't see what difference that argument makes. Lars is talking about
>the fact that some regions of Europe got the toy under the name of
>Overbite, and other regions got the toy under the name of Jawbreaker.
>He's talking about the NAME of the toy, not about its availability.
I just ran a self-diagnostic, and there appears to be no malfunction in my
reading comprehension circuitry. Thanks for the clarification all the same,
though. :)
Again, I was merely using that as an *example* to illustrate that just because
a given toy is sold on one continent doesn't necessarily follow that it's sold
in every single country on that continent. Or comes in the same packaging. Or
is given the same name. Or smells the same. These hypothetical people that
Lars fears are going to instantly jump to that conclusion... well, they're
really pretty stupid people.
Zobovor... what, was Sipher the only one who managed to decipher what I was
saying, here?
Aziraphale and his 4-piece Grimlock
coordinate Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:20:04 GMT, "SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo
Himself" <silve...@os.enitel.no> formulated :
<snip discussion>
Anyone wanna have a scan of my European/Mainland Europe 'Overbite'
techspec?
;)
--
Aziraphale, aka Thomas Hamann
Thomas Hamann's REALLY EVIL Website (sponsorised by Satan): http://members.nbci.com/tdhamann (under construction)
Self-appointed ATT Troll & Nasty Person-buster.
TFFC: G+++ FR FW+ M #187 D++ ADA N++++ W++ B+ OP
Quote of the year, by someone whose name I can't remember:
Bumblebee: "Abonimus, what is 2 + 2?"
Abonimus: "..." <explodes>
M Sipher
> Lars Eriksson wrote:
>
> >>But guess what. Those French and Spanish (or whatever) names are
> >>both going to end up classified as "European" names.
> >
> >In that case I suggest that you change the designation to something
> >completely different, because that's only going to muddle up everything
> >even more.
>
> Yeah, people are going to get confused and think that France and Spain are
> actually in Europe somewhere.
Heh.
Besides, the E, S (which'll replace the B mark), and J marks are vague in
themselves, being notes for MARKETS, not specific borders. I mean, you get
Japanese toys sold at retail in other Asian countries, alongside the
American-market ones. S is gonna cover the whole of South America rather
than trying to itemize every TF down there by country.
Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. Somehow I doubt everyone is going
to start referring to Overbite as Jawbreaker every time they talk to a
European on this NG, no more than they'll start calling Blackarachnia "Arana
Negra", or whatever.
It's triviata. A little extra tidbit. If there's more European alt-names,
send them, I'll slap them in right next to all the others, and they'll be
just as totally unused by Transfandom as all the others.
M "And Frankly, I'm Only Gonna Devote So Much Space To The Issue" Sipher
Lars Eriksson
>Lars Eriksson wrote:
>
>>>But guess what. Those French and Spanish (or whatever) names are
>>>both going to end up classified as "European" names.
>>In that case I suggest that you change the designation to something
>>completely different, because that's only going to muddle up everything
>>even more.
>Yeah, people are going to get confused and think that France and Spain are
>actually in Europe somewhere.
Zobovor, I suggested a few posts ago that you reread the thread to see what
I'm trying to say, and apparently I have to tell you again.
Those French and Spanish names that M Sipher is talking about come from
the *North American* tri-lingual packaging, and are meant for the Canadian
and the Mexican market. Even though they're French and Spanish, those names
have never been used in Europe!
Not only is Sipher's list unclear on whether the "European" names are
replacements for the regular names, or just a local variant, now he's
planning to lump North American names with the European ones as well!
VîçéGŽěpX
> Zobovor wrote:
> >Lars Eriksson wrote:
> >
> >>>But guess what. Those French and Spanish (or whatever) names are
> >>>both going to end up classified as "European" names.
>
> >>In that case I suggest that you change the designation to something
> >>completely different, because that's only going to muddle up everything
> >>even more.
>
> >Yeah, people are going to get confused and think that France and Spain
are
> >actually in Europe somewhere.
>
> Zobovor, I suggested a few posts ago that you reread the thread to see
what
> I'm trying to say, and apparently I have to tell you again.
I just have to wonder why you're so insistent on this matter. All this fuss
over one name being used in a percentage of a continent?
> Those French and Spanish names that M Sipher is talking about come from
> the *North American* tri-lingual packaging, and are meant for the Canadian
> and the Mexican market. Even though they're French and Spanish, those
names
> have never been used in Europe!
Do you know this for certain? I have no idea about the current state of the
UK and/or European packaging, but do you know this for fact? Have you
compared Canadian packaging to European?
> Not only is Sipher's list unclear on whether the "European" names are
> replacements for the regular names, or just a local variant, now he's
> planning to lump North American names with the European ones as well!
Unless I misread, it doesn't look like Sipher's going to change that as I
believe was stated several times by Sipher himself. If you have such a
problem with this list, why don't you do it yourself? That may sound
negative, but that's my feeling on the matter. Sipher is doing a service out
of his own free time with this listing. It's not like he's getting paid for
it. Heaven knows I'd like to get paid for the few listings I'm trying to
maintain.
Honestly, if this is such an issue for you, why not take it upon yourself to
make your own variations listing?
--
V鍡圜桁pX - Still keeping his foot off that blasted samophlange.
http://www.wildrun.com/ orio...@sprynet.com
"Wear a Stampy around your neck, you'll get chicks." - Will
The Masters of Fate are coming...
Walkerton
> replacements for the regular names, or just a local variant, now he's
> planning to lump North American names with the European ones as well!
Oh, heavens me! Lordy lordy!
--David
www.itswalky.com/transformers/
Lars Eriksson
>Lars Eriksson wrote...
>> Zobovor wrote:
>> >Yeah, people are going to get confused and think that France and Spain
>> >are actually in Europe somewhere.
>>
>> Zobovor, I suggested a few posts ago that you reread the thread to see
>> what I'm trying to say, and apparently I have to tell you again.
>
>I just have to wonder why you're so insistent on this matter. All this fuss
>over one name being used in a percentage of a continent?
How would you like it if I made a list grouping all the American
Transformers together as if America was one unified market, making it look
like Bumblebee is called Volks and Blackarachnia is called Arańa Negra in
the whole region?
Europe consists of about 60 countries, with some 40-50 languages - you can't
just group them together as if it's just one country.
I'm trying to spread enlightment about the European market here - it's not
just Overbite/Jawbreaker, but *all* the European Transformers.
Did you know that there's a Transformer called "Rush", for instance?
M Sipher's Variations List doesn't mention him, Robert Jung's Toy List
doesn't mention him, and J.E. Alvarez' latest guide doesn't mention him.
It's the "European" name for a toy, but very few TransFans in Northern
Europe
would know which toy you're talking about if you would ask them about it.
But ask someone from continental Europe, and there's a good chance that they
would know - it's the toy that was called Windbreaker in the USA (and
possibly other parts of North America as well), and that's known as "Zap"
in the UK and Scandinavia.
Naturally I don't expect people like Jung or Sipher (or Alvarez for that
matter) to be aware of every alternative name there is, but it would be
nice if they could make a separate note when they *know* that it's not the
only name used in the area (Jung already does that, actually).
If not for any other reason, then at least as a courtesy to the European
TransFans.
>> Those French and Spanish names that M Sipher is talking about come from
>> the *North American* tri-lingual packaging, and are meant for the
Canadian
>> and the Mexican market. Even though they're French and Spanish, those
>> names have never been used in Europe!
>
>Do you know this for certain? I have no idea about the current state of the
>UK and/or European packaging, but do you know this for fact? Have you
>compared Canadian packaging to European?
I live in Europe, as you have surely noticed by now.
Regretfully I wasn't online to make comparisons during the G1 and G2 areas,
but I have followed the developments in both North America and Europe for
the last four years. I have made several purchases of toys in tri-lingual
North American packaging, and several of toys in tri-lingual continental
European packaging. I have made notes of the names used on the assortment
pictures on the back of the packages, and of names listed or mentioned
online.
So the answer is *yes* - I DO know for a fact that at least four years'
worth of toys have different names in those regions.
>> Not only is Sipher's list unclear on whether the "European" names are
>> replacements for the regular names, or just a local variant, now he's
>> planning to lump North American names with the European ones as well!
>
>Unless I misread, it doesn't look like Sipher's going to change that as I
>believe was stated several times by Sipher himself. If you have such a
>problem with this list, why don't you do it yourself?
If I did have the time to do it, I would definitely set to work at it, as it
seems it requires someone from Europe to make sure that the European toys
are properly acknowledged. Unfortunately I don't see that happen for at
least four more years, as I am already overburdened with studies, work, and
miscellaneous other tasks.
> That may sound
>negative, but that's my feeling on the matter. Sipher is doing a service
out
>of his own free time with this listing. It's not like he's getting paid for
>it. Heaven knows I'd like to get paid for the few listings I'm trying to
>maintain.
It's not like it would cost a fortune to add a simple remark when he adds
a name either. The original poster suggested that M Sipher should add a note
that Overbite was called Jawbreaker in Europe - I asked for a note that he
was called Jawbreaker *in the UK*.
I don't think I will continue this thread any further. I'm tired of this,
and it's obvious that few of you care - apparently Europe is just a diffuse
"something" that's hardly worth giving a second thought.
But I happen to live here, and I think it's only reasonable to expect that
any resource that presumes to list facts about something European at least
*tries* to get those facts right.
A final note to M Sipher: Blackarachnia's Mexican name is Arańa Negra, not
Arana Negra. The tilde isn't there just for decoration - it changes the
pronounciation of the word, and possibly the meaning as well.
--
Lars Eriksson, Swede and European
E-mail address: grounds...@chello.se
Joona I Palaste
> VîçéGŽěpX wrote:
>>Lars Eriksson wrote...
>>> Zobovor wrote:
>>> >Yeah, people are going to get confused and think that France and Spain
>>> >are actually in Europe somewhere.
>>>
>>> Zobovor, I suggested a few posts ago that you reread the thread to see
>>> what I'm trying to say, and apparently I have to tell you again.
>>
>>I just have to wonder why you're so insistent on this matter. All this fuss
>>over one name being used in a percentage of a continent?
> How would you like it if I made a list grouping all the American
> Transformers together as if America was one unified market, making it look
> like Bumblebee is called Volks and Blackarachnia is called Arańa Negra in
> the whole region?
> Europe consists of about 60 countries, with some 40-50 languages - you can't
> just group them together as if it's just one country.
Yet many USA citizens are completely oblivious of this. They are well
aware of the cultural differences between a Texan and a New Yorker, but
as far as they can see, a Sicilian winegrower and a Sámi reindeer farmer
are eactly alike. (Maybe that was an exaggerated example, but you get my
point.)
> I'm trying to spread enlightment about the European market here - it's not
> just Overbite/Jawbreaker, but *all* the European Transformers.
> Did you know that there's a Transformer called "Rush", for instance?
> M Sipher's Variations List doesn't mention him, Robert Jung's Toy List
> doesn't mention him, and J.E. Alvarez' latest guide doesn't mention him.
> It's the "European" name for a toy, but very few TransFans in Northern
> Europe
> would know which toy you're talking about if you would ask them about it.
> But ask someone from continental Europe, and there's a good chance that they
> would know - it's the toy that was called Windbreaker in the USA (and
> possibly other parts of North America as well), and that's known as "Zap"
> in the UK and Scandinavia.
I find that the original comment "Overbite was called Jawbreaker in
Europe" is ambiguous. It was called Jawbreaker in the UK, and the UK is
in Europe. But the comment doesn't define what it was called in Europe
outside the UK.
> Naturally I don't expect people like Jung or Sipher (or Alvarez for that
> matter) to be aware of every alternative name there is, but it would be
> nice if they could make a separate note when they *know* that it's not the
> only name used in the area (Jung already does that, actually).
> If not for any other reason, then at least as a courtesy to the European
> TransFans.
>>> Not only is Sipher's list unclear on whether the "European" names are
>>> replacements for the regular names, or just a local variant, now he's
>>> planning to lump North American names with the European ones as well!
>>
>>Unless I misread, it doesn't look like Sipher's going to change that as I
>>believe was stated several times by Sipher himself. If you have such a
>>problem with this list, why don't you do it yourself?
> If I did have the time to do it, I would definitely set to work at it, as it
> seems it requires someone from Europe to make sure that the European toys
> are properly acknowledged. Unfortunately I don't see that happen for at
> least four more years, as I am already overburdened with studies, work, and
> miscellaneous other tasks.
There are a couple of other European Transfans out on ATT too. Maybe we
could get, for example, someone from the UK to do this? I suppose the
British have enough cultural pride not to consider "the UK" and "Europe"
interchangable terms.
>> That may sound
>>negative, but that's my feeling on the matter. Sipher is doing a service
> out
>>of his own free time with this listing. It's not like he's getting paid for
>>it. Heaven knows I'd like to get paid for the few listings I'm trying to
>>maintain.
> It's not like it would cost a fortune to add a simple remark when he adds
> a name either. The original poster suggested that M Sipher should add a note
> that Overbite was called Jawbreaker in Europe - I asked for a note that he
> was called Jawbreaker *in the UK*.
Surely changing "in Europe" to "in the UK" is not an overwhelming
labour? Using a decent text editor or word processor it takes about 5
seconds. It doesn't require explicit listing of all European countries.
> I don't think I will continue this thread any further. I'm tired of this,
> and it's obvious that few of you care - apparently Europe is just a diffuse
> "something" that's hardly worth giving a second thought.
> But I happen to live here, and I think it's only reasonable to expect that
> any resource that presumes to list facts about something European at least
> *tries* to get those facts right.
> A final note to M Sipher: Blackarachnia's Mexican name is Arańa Negra, not
> Arana Negra. The tilde isn't there just for decoration - it changes the
> pronounciation of the word, and possibly the meaning as well.
Of course it can change the meaning. There are numerous examples in
Finnish, too. Here's my favourite:
"Montako näistä halusitkaan?" -> How many of these did you want?
"Montako naista halusitkaan?" -> How many women did you want?
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"It was, er, quite bookish."
- Horace Boothroyd
Hooks
Joona I Palaste <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:9bhuo9$sei$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> Yet many USA citizens are completely oblivious of this. They are well
> aware of the cultural differences between a Texan and a New Yorker, but
> as far as they can see, a Sicilian winegrower and a Sámi reindeer farmer
> are eactly alike. (Maybe that was an exaggerated example, but you get my
> point.)
Of course, you know US citizens Oh So Well, Joona.
(X)
Devvi
wrote:
>Oh, heavens me! Lordy lordy!
It's probably not a big deal to you because you don't live in Europe
but when I see people talking about the "UK exclusives" for example it
irritates me. Sipher has done a huge amount of work and I appreciate
it and downloaded his list but if the European market is covered
incorrectly or lumped together then maybe the list should not contain
these markets. Mind you, this is ment as contructive criticism
(although the suggestion of removing something isn't really
constructive :-)).
I know a little about the Mexican/European G1 market and own and know
about the variants and have spotted some errors myself on the list. Is
it so bad to tell Sipher about it or speak up about it ?
Devvi,
Oh heavens me! Yes... annoying comments. Sad but true.
Brendoconvoy
"VîçéGŽěpX" <orio...@sprynet.com> wrote
> > Those French and Spanish names that M Sipher is talking about come from
> > the *North American* tri-lingual packaging, and are meant for the
Canadian
> > and the Mexican market. Even though they're French and Spanish, those
> names
> > have never been used in Europe!
>
> Do you know this for certain? I have no idea about the current state of
the
> UK and/or European packaging, but do you know this for fact? Have you
> compared Canadian packaging to European?
I can't speak for Lars, but I have an array of "standard" US packaging,
Trilingual North American, Bilingual Biocombat, and mulitlingual Animutants
packaging in front of me.
From them it's not hard to deduce that the French language name for a
character bears absolutely no relation to what it was sold as in France.
Eg: Silverbolt's European packaging would list him as "Silverbolt/Grifo" so
he would be known as one of those two (I'm also working from an Animutants
catalogue) when sold in France.
However, the French language name (for use in Quebec) is Vif-Argent. This
is also how he is named for the French market, according to Sipher's list.
==
What point am I making? Search me.
I'm just sticking up for Lars...
Zobovor
>How would you like it if I made a list grouping all the American
>Transformers together as if America was one unified market, making it
>look like Bumblebee is called Volks and Blackarachnia is called Araña
>Negra in the whole region?
How do you make it "look" that way? By saying "Bumblebee is called Volks
everywhere in North America"? Is that what Sipher's doing?
>Europe consists of about 60 countries, with some 40-50 languages -
>you can't just group them together as if it's just one country.
No one in this thread has done that, Lars.
>Did you know that there's a Transformer called "Rush", for instance?
>M Sipher's Variations List doesn't mention him <...> it's the toy that
>was called Windbreaker in the USA (and possibly other parts of North
>America as well), and that's known as "Zap" in the UK and
>Scandinavia.
Ah, so Sipher's list does mention the toy, then. Good.
>>Unless I misread, it doesn't look like Sipher's going to change that as
>>I believe was stated several times by Sipher himself. If you have such
>>a problem with this list, why don't you do it yourself?
>
>If I did have the time to do it, I would definitely set to work at it, as it
>seems it requires someone from Europe to make sure that the
>European toys are properly acknowledged. Unfortunately I don't see
>that happen for at least four more years, as I am already overburdened
>with studies, work, and miscellaneous other tasks.
Then I think it's rather unfair and unreasonable for you to demand that Sipher
make all these changes when you're not willing or able to do it youself.
>I don't think I will continue this thread any further. I'm tired of this,
>and it's obvious that few of you care - apparently Europe is just a
>diffuse "something" that's hardly worth giving a second thought.
Let me address this for just a moment. At what point here has anyone said that
Europe isn't worth consideration? Isn't it at least possible that the reason
Sipher's list is admittedly "Ameri-centric" is because he's far more
knowledgeable about the toys in this country than in yours? Have you
considered the possibility that Sipher is more concerned with documenting the
variations of the toys themselves rather than the language on the box, which
basically amounts to a minor packaging variation? Do you really think that
there are fans who will read this list and will be unable to identify the
Windbreaker/Zap toy if the name "Rush" isn't somewhere in the list?
Lars Eriksson
>Lars Eriksson wrote:
>>How would you like it if I made a list grouping all the American
>>Transformers together as if America was one unified market, making it
>>look like Bumblebee is called Volks and Blackarachnia is called Araña
>>Negra in the whole region?
>
>How do you make it "look" that way? By saying "Bumblebee is called Volks
>everywhere in North America"? Is that what Sipher's doing?
I said America, not North America. Volks is the Brazilian/Argentinean name
for the toy.
And I wouldn't have to say that it had that name *everywhere* in the area;
it would be enough to say that the toy was called that in America - people
in the United States would start objecting and point out that it was called
Bumblebee in your part of the world as well.
Let's try it with a few examples from a hypothetical toy list with an
"Europe-centric" outlook. I have created a designation "NA" for North
America, and have added a few Europe-exclusive toys to help you get in the
right mood. :-)
BLAZE - G2 Sparkabot
CHEETOR - Deluxe Maximal ("Cheetas"-J, "Vélocitor"-NA)
FLASH - G1 Turbomaster
JETSTORM - Deluxe Beast Machine ("L'Orageux"-NA)
Do you see? (probably not.) It doesn't matter if it's just *one* possible
name; by putting a region marker next to it, you make it look like it's
true for the entire region, unless you make some kind of special note
about it.
And let's go beyond Sipher's Variations List for a moment (I want to
remind you that I wasn't targeting his list directly in the beginning,
even if the discussion has come to focus on it as it has continued) -
there are people out there who recklessly speak of the European toys as
being *UK* toys, or who, like I mentioned a few days ago, pass off a
toy with an exotic Italian name as the *European* release.
It might not look that a big deal to you, but I'm offended that people
don't care more about the European market than to make careless statements
like that. It's disrespectful to the European TransFans and confusing for
many others.
>>Europe consists of about 60 countries, with some 40-50 languages -
>>you can't just group them together as if it's just one country.
>
>No one in this thread has done that, Lars.
Okay, time for a hit below the belt:
Perhaps not, but M Sipher did something much worse - he announced that he
is planning to group *Canada and Mexico* together with the European
countries. I have heard that some Canadians aren't particularly fond of
being called Americans, but I don't think they will be particularly happy
of being categorized as Europeans either. :-)
>>Did you know that there's a Transformer called "Rush", for instance?
>>M Sipher's Variations List doesn't mention him <...> it's the toy that
>>was called Windbreaker in the USA (and possibly other parts of North
>>America as well), and that's known as "Zap" in the UK and
>>Scandinavia.
>
>Ah, so Sipher's list does mention the toy, then. Good.
The toy, yes, but not the name. It still looks like it's called "Zap" in
the whole of Europe, and you won't get any Frenchman or German to agree
with that. :-)
>>If I did have the time to do it, I would definitely set to work at it, as
>>it seems it requires someone from Europe to make sure that the
>>European toys are properly acknowledged.
>
>Then I think it's rather unfair and unreasonable for you to demand that
>Sipher make all these changes when you're not willing or able to do it
>youself.
It has nothing to do with unwillingness. I have been thinking about it for
years, actually, since I don't like the idea of any list being "American-
centric". I would like to promote all Transformers to equal status, no
matter which region it's from.
And let me repeat - I haven't made any demands on Sipher to revise the whole
list. As he was asked to add the name Jawbreaker to the list as a *European*
name, I meant that he should point out that the name wasn't used in the
whole area. How difficult can it be to add a "UK" marker instead of an "E"
when he's making the amendment?
And "all these changes" that you speak of aren't that many in reality. I
just checked, and there are just 17 alternative European names listed, so
it's not like it would take days to revise them. I could easily provide a
list if he should decide to change them. As for all the European toys
*without* an alternative name at this point, they can stay as they are
until more names are added - their "E" markers are linked to the toys and
not the names, so they aren't misleading as (most of) the other 17.
>>I don't think I will continue this thread any further. I'm tired of this,
>>and it's obvious that few of you care - apparently Europe is just a
>>diffuse "something" that's hardly worth giving a second thought.
>Let me address this for just a moment. At what point here has anyone said
>that Europe isn't worth consideration?
That's what it looks like, since none of the Americans in this thread seems
to realize that the designations of the names actually make a difference to
us. It's a name that was used in Europe, so you don't see what the big deal
is, you say. While technically that might be correct, it's not that simple
from our point of view.
> Isn't it at least possible that
>the reason Sipher's list is admittedly "Ameri-centric" is because he's far
>more knowledgeable about the toys in this country than in yours? Have you
>considered the possibility that Sipher is more concerned with documenting
>the variations of the toys themselves rather than the language on the box,
>which basically amounts to a minor packaging variation?
You addressed this in your private e-mail to me as well, pointing out that
the different versions of Armordillo (Armadillo and Armodillo in your
example, and you can add Tatou and Arma to those) are exactly the same
toys. Yes, just as you said the Variations list is just that - a list of
variations.
Yet Sipher have added a number of alternative names to the list, possibly
because he, just like me, thinks it's interesting with all the different
names. I think that's terrific, and I hope that he continues to add more
names to the list, *but* I would also like to see all those names properly
categorized. That's why I corrected the statement that started this whole
thread - that Overbite is called Jawbreaker in *Europe*.
Is it so wrong to want information to be as correct and reliable as
possible?
Another note to M Sipher, regarding your plans to change the "B" marker
to an "S", for South America - as I looked through the list I realized
that it will clash with an existing marker, since you've already
assigned the letter to the Mexican Beast Wars names.
--
Lars Eriksson, grounds...@chello.se
M Sipher
news:9bi82e$ecd$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I can't speak for Lars, but I have an array of "standard" US packaging,
> Trilingual North American, Bilingual Biocombat, and mulitlingual
Animutants
> packaging in front of me.
> From them it's not hard to deduce that the French language name for a
> character bears absolutely no relation to what it was sold as in France.
Thank you. This, children is called "actually being HELPFUL". If you could
email me a list of these name variants, I'll have them in the next update.
> Eg: Silverbolt's European packaging would list him as "Silverbolt/Grifo"
so
> he would be known as one of those two (I'm also working from an Animutants
> catalogue) when sold in France.
> However, the French language name (for use in Quebec) is Vif-Argent. This
> is also how he is named for the French market, according to Sipher's list.
Fine. Now that I actually have an example, I can alter the list in order to
accomodate this information for a more accurate listing.
As such, here is how I'm going to be handling the name thing.
Canadian and Mexican-exclusive names/toys (jut found out there was some
Mexican stuff, whaddaya know) will be marked with an (N) for NORTH AMERICAN
(excluding the US, natch).
(S) will denote SOUTH AMERICAN names & such. Brazilian, Argentinian,
whatever.
(E) will continue to include the UK and its neighbors (should I hear of
any), mainland Europe and Australia. Since there are obviously multiple
names used in this large market, I will list the toy primarily under the UK
"English" name for exclusives, since tha's what the vast majority of the
world knows them as, with all the others names underneath, together, as I
will with the Spanish & French Canadian names together.
I am trying to strike a balance between information and brevity here.
M "Considering I Don't Pay any Attention To Any Other Form Of Packaging
Change..." Sipher
M Sipher
> Lars Eriksson wrote:
>
> >Did you know that there's a Transformer called "Rush", for instance?
> >M Sipher's Variations List doesn't mention him
Because, until now, I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT AND NOBODY'D BROUGHT IT TO MY
ATTENTION.
Maybe if you actually SHARED the info rather than whine vaguely about
unspecific info not being there, I could put it in for future updates? You
know, CONTRIBUTE? Many other people over the years have done so.
> >I don't think I will continue this thread any further. I'm tired of this,
> >and it's obvious that few of you care - apparently Europe is just a
> >diffuse "something" that's hardly worth giving a second thought.
Ex-damn-scuse me? I'm very well aware of the variety of nations in Europe,
thank you very much. My family comes from a lot of them. Do I know
everything about them? No. Do I really need to? No, I'll learn about the
individual countries as I need to per situation. Which, incidentally is how
I handle the other states in my own damn country.
Am I going to substantially increase the size of the list in order to be
hyper-anal-retentive over exactly where something was called something in
every portion of the globe, a mere PACKAGING VARIANT? NO.
> Let me address this for just a moment. At what point here has anyone said
that
> Europe isn't worth consideration? Isn't it at least possible that the
reason
> Sipher's list is admittedly "Ameri-centric" is because he's far more
> knowledgeable about the toys in this country than in yours?
And that the vast majority of the online fandom views the line as such, and
therefore the list WILL be geared towards making it as readable to that
audience by focusing on the "core" American/UK/Japanese names the toys are
known by?
> Have you
> considered the possibility that Sipher is more concerned with documenting
the
> variations of the toys themselves rather than the language on the box,
which
> basically amounts to a minor packaging variation?
Christ, I didn't even use to BOTHER with alt-names. Just went with a single
name, the one used in the main market it was sold in.
> Do you really think that
> there are fans who will read this list and will be unable to identify the
> Windbreaker/Zap toy if the name "Rush" isn't somewhere in the list?
And perhaps if they DO know the toy by that name, perhaps now that I
actually HAVE it to put it in, they can do a simple "FIND" command that
should be in any word processing program WORTH half a crap to look up "Rush"
and find it in the list? Or any other name in existance?
And that the EXISTANCE of many names all under the "European" banner should
suffice in driving home the point that any given toy isn't called one name
in the whole of Europe, AS I SAY IN THE INTRODUCTION SECTION?
Oh, and whatever was previously marked with an (S) for Spanish, by the way,
has been absorbed in to the (N).
M "I'm Drawing The Line Here" Sipher
Walkerton
> Perhaps not, but M Sipher did something much worse - he announced that he
> is planning to group *Canada and Mexico* together with the European
> countries. I have heard that some Canadians aren't particularly fond of
> being called Americans, but I don't think they will be particularly happy
> of being categorized as Europeans either. :-)
> Okay, time for a hit below the belt:
> Perhaps not, but M Sipher did something much worse - he announced that he
> is planning to group *Canada and Mexico* together with the European
> countries. I have heard that some Canadians aren't particularly fond of
> being called Americans, but I don't think they will be particularly happy
> of being categorized as Europeans either. :-)
I'm morbidly curious over this Horrible Sin that Sipher has committed
upon the face of the Earth.
Imagine... a list created by an American that groups non-American toys
together. I mean, that's a huge slap in the face to those poor guys who
don't live in America. Why can't the mean Americans make lists for
them, too?
I'll tell you why.
BECAUSE THEY'RE TIRED OF LISTENING TO WHINEY PEOPLE
BITCH ABOUT STUPID INCONSEQUENTIAL NONSENSE
THAT NO ONE CARES ABOUT.
Go ahead. Make your own damn list. Group Americans in with
Nazis for all I care. We won't make a stink. Our penis size isn't
threatened by a list some doofus made across an ocean or two.
I mean, really. You're claiming genocide over a LIST OF TOYS.
A LIST OF TOYS.
Repeat this after me. A list of toys.
Wars used to be started over assassinations and religious oppression.
Now all it takes is for someone with too much time on their hands
to get their panties in a bunch over how a foreign country labels their
goods.
Anyway, let's review.
1) Sipher's list is American centric. SO IS THE TRANSFORMERS LINE.
Deal.
2) It's not even a list that attempts to list all the names for various toys
in
various countries. It only tires to list actual mold differences. And
Sipher's
not exactly the most strict when it comes to mold differences -- some of
them
are so minor it's not worth mentioning, and he adheres to this.
3) Europe is a damn cool place. I've been there. So before you call me
some sort of bigot
just because... well, because that seems to be the only thing you're doing
right now...
Heck. I guess logic hasn't stopped you so far. Godspeed, man.
4) America is also a very crappy place. I've been here. Any country that
cultivates
shitty food like McDonald's all over the globe should really be quartered
and drawn.
5) This reply is meaningless anyway. You won't listen to ME. But, hey,
when Sipher's
been erratically called some sort of racist bigot over the nature of a list
of toys,
then I feel the need to stand up for the man. He's one of the more
harder-working
Transfans there are. And denigrating this thread to one over nationality is
really really
REALLY low.
Really low.
(Heh, I remember when Ultraman Ace called Thylacine2000 a racist because Thy
said
he didn't get a hardon for anime. I mean, really. If there's anything I've
learned over my
22 years of social interaction with the world, it's that people from
different places will
like different things. It's culture, man. Don't go knocking ours. We
didn't knock yours.
It's not like I'm sneaking in cloaked ABBA insults.)
I like pie.
--David
"Momma mia, here we go aga-ain..."
www.itswalky.com/transformers/
Zobovor
>Do you see? (probably not.)
I'd just like to say that I find it a bit hypocritical of you that you would
demand an apology from me for insinuating something that I didn't even mean,
and then turn around and take digs at me.
>...there are people out there who recklessly speak of the European
>toys as being *UK* toys...
Perhaps I am in error here, but I was under the impression that the vast
majority of European toys *were* produced in the United Kingdom. I've seen
many references to Hasbro UK on this newsgroup, but never a Hasbro Italy or
Hasbro Czechoslovakia. Am I misinformed?
Lars Eriksson
>> Lars Eriksson wrote:
>> >Did you know that there's a Transformer called "Rush", for instance?
>> >M Sipher's Variations List doesn't mention him
>
>Because, until now, I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT AND NOBODY'D BROUGHT IT TO MY
>ATTENTION.
>
>Maybe if you actually SHARED the info rather than whine vaguely about
>unspecific info not being there, I could put it in for future updates? You
>know, CONTRIBUTE? Many other people over the years have done so.
I TRIED sharing information, but neither you or Zobovor seem to believe
that it's particularly important to get the information right. I made one
small suggestion for a clarification (Jawbreaker - UK), but my arguments
were ignored, and rather rudely too.
After that I have listed examples, to try to make people see *why* it's
so important that the European names are properly attributed. But that
hasn't helped either - so far everyone has been ignoring the hypothetical
"Europe-centric" toy list that I described to try to get you to see
things from our point of view. Obviously that hasn't helped either - you
just don't *want* to understand.
And don't try to confuse the issue - the example above wasn't a complaint
that the name "Rush" isn't listed in the Variations List. It was one
example, listed next to Jung's Toy List and Alvarez' latest TF guide, of
how ignorant TransFandom in general is of the nature of the European TF
market. Because that is what I have been talking about - the tendency to
handle European TF names without bothering to check the facts. Your list
isn't the target of this discussion, just one example of how things are
today, and what could be done to improve things (if some people weren't
stubbornly insisting that it's "not a problem").
>Am I going to substantially increase the size of the list in order to be
>hyper-anal-retentive over exactly where something was called something in
>every portion of the globe, a mere PACKAGING VARIANT? NO.
Both you and Zobovor repeat that your list isn't supposed to contain
information on packaging variants. That's totally okay, if it wasn't for
one thing... it already DOES INCLUDE PACKAGING VARIANTS!
It already includes a lot of Mexican, Canadian, and European names, and
since it does, I think it's only reasonable to expect that they are
properly attributed. But apparently "that's not important."
>Christ, I didn't even use to BOTHER with alt-names. Just went with a single
>name, the one used in the main market it was sold in.
Didn't use to, perhaps, but you DO bother with the alt-names now.
And since you do... like I said above, I think it's only reasonable to
expect that they're properly attributed.
>And that the EXISTANCE of many names all under the "European" banner should
>suffice in driving home the point that any given toy isn't called one name
>in the whole of Europe, AS I SAY IN THE INTRODUCTION SECTION?
And where in the introduction, if I may ask, is that information?
There is nothing in the intro which indicates that a certain name isn't used
in the entire area. This is what you say about alternate names:
ALTERNATE NAMES : Many characters have different names in other
countries. They are listed here for reference.
And then you attribute an S or a F or an E next to the names.
And then we have the description for the E marker:
(E) - This can stand for "EUROPEAN" TF, or, if you prefer, "Everywhere
Else Not Japan, Brazil Or America". These TFs were available only in
the UK, continental Europe, Australia, or Canada. Most of these were
post-Action Master, pre-G2 toys.
"European TF" or "Everywhere else not Japan, Brazil or America"...
No disclaimer there either. So we have an alternate name marked with an
"E" - obviously it must mean that the alternate name was used either in
just Europe (and by default, in the *whole* of Europe), or *everywhere*
outside Japan, Brazil or America. There's nothing about the name being
used in *just one small part of the region*.
And regarding that line in one of your other posts, about "actually
being helpful" - if you hadn't been so unaccomodating to begin with,
I wouldn't have had to argue so aggressively. I'm not particularly fond
of being told that my suggestions are unimportant, or being belittled
when I try to make a suggestion (the latter complaint is in reference
to Zobovor, just so you know).
--
Lars Eriksson, grounds...@chello.se
Lars Eriksson
>Lars Eriksson wrote:
>
>>Do you see? (probably not.)
>
>I'd just like to say that I find it a bit hypocritical of you that you
would
>demand an apology from me for insinuating something that I didn't even
mean,
>and then turn around and take digs at me.
So I should just remain silent and continue to take stab after stab like
a good boy? That may be how I worked in the past, but not any longer - if
anyone is belittling me, I have no qualms about being rude in return.
And considering how little effect my previous arguments have had, I
didn't have high hopes that the last ones would do much better. You still
haven't shown any signs of trying to see things from my point of view,
which was the point of that thought experiment, so I don't think I was
wrong.
>>...there are people out there who recklessly speak of the European
>>toys as being *UK* toys...
>
>Perhaps I am in error here, but I was under the impression that the vast
>majority of European toys *were* produced in the United Kingdom.
Produced, yes, but they were sold over the whole of Europe. It's about
impressions again - it easily gives the impression that the toy wasn't
sold outside of the United Kingdom. It isn't that uncommon that people
even refer to them as *UK-exclusive* toys.
There's no good equivalent for the North American Transformers, but try
to imagine that someone called them "Rhode Island toys". That's where
Hasbro, Inc. have their offices, so it wouldn't be technically incorrect
to say so, but it would likely annoy a lot of people.
> I've seen
>many references to Hasbro UK on this newsgroup, but never a Hasbro Italy or
>Hasbro Czechoslovakia. Am I misinformed?
Yes, in a way you are. :-) I don't know anything about the Czech market,
but there is a Hasbro Italy, just as there is a Hasbro Deutschland, a
Hasbro Hellas, a Hasbro Nordic, a Hasbro Netherlands, a Hasbro Schweiz,
and other Hasbro subsidiaries.
For the most part they're just acting as distributors though (that goes
for Hasbro UK as well), at least of the Transformers toys, so they're not
quite as important.
It's still to jump to conclusions to say that a certain toy is a *UK*
toy though. The so-called UK-exclusive Beast Wars figures for example
(red Spittor and green/gray Claw Jaw), are neither exclusive to the UK
(they were sold in Italy as well, and possibly in Germany), nor produced
by Hasbro UK - they were actually produced by Hasbro International Inc.
That's one reason why I want to raise the European toys' status - to
simply refer to them as UK toys is to oversimplify things.
Douglas W. Dlin
unnecessary, but especially after Walky's response, I get the feeling
tempers are preventing people from clearly seeing solutions being
offered. To wit:
Okay, Lars isn't asking for much--just an addition of other known names
used w/i Europe, with some notation indicating they're separate from
UK-only names. He's even willing to provide the info in an
easy-to-assimilate format:
> And "all these changes" that you speak of aren't that many in reality.
> I just checked, and there are just 17 alternative European names
> listed, so it's not like it would take days to revise them. I could
> easily provide a list if he should decide to change them.
So he's willing to provide all the names known so far, along with
corresponding areas of sale, if need be.
While his approach may have come off as annoyingly pedantic to some, I
found it no less so than, say, some of the suggested changes that I've
made to the Variations List.
Sipher, for his part, wants to keep the indicator tags for alternate
names as simple as possible, so this is his solution:
> (E) will continue to include the UK and its neighbors (should I hear
> of any), mainland Europe and Australia. Since there are obviously
> multiple names used in this large market, I will list the toy
> primarily under the UK "English" name for exclusives, since that's
> what the vast majority of the world knows them as, with all the others
> names underneath, together, as I will with the Spanish & French
> Canadian names together.
So while the list won't differentiate which Euro TF names are UK and
non-UK, at least it'll list them all under a reasonably appropriate tag.
No, it's not absolutely accurate, but at least it's unbiasedly
inaccurate. :-) The [E] tag will now be taken to mean "Names in various
European markets, generally starting with the name used in the UK."
So, everyone at least mildly mollified by this? Can we get back to
somewhat civil discussion? (Okay, Walky, you can still talk about
poo--just keep it w/i reason. :-) )
Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com
Joona I Palaste
I think that it would suffice to mention that the names with the [E]
tag refer only to certain countries in Europe, not the whole of Europe.
As Lars pointed out, the Variations List does not currently mention
this. Lars's original suggestion was simply to change "in Europe" to
"in the UK" when the name only applies to the UK, but somehow everybody
thought that this would cause endless toil and labour.
And besides, Australia isn't even IN Europe...
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schitzophrenic and so am I."
- Bob Wiley
Aziraphale and his 4-piece Grimlock
formulated :
<snip>
>>...there are people out there who recklessly speak of the European
>>toys as being *UK* toys...
>
>Perhaps I am in error here, but I was under the impression that the vast
>majority of European toys *were* produced in the United Kingdom. I've seen
>many references to Hasbro UK on this newsgroup, but never a Hasbro Italy or
>Hasbro Czechoslovakia. Am I misinformed?
Yes.
The fact that most continental European Transfans don't post here,
doesn't mean that they don't exist.
Language-barriers (English can still be a difficult language for
French and other Roman-language speakers) are one cause, the other
being the fact that Europe doesn't get recognition for being a big
Transformers market after Transformers had sizzled slightly to death
in the US for a few years.
Most of the continental Europe TF toys were made in France.
Take a look at a European BeastWars card/package: see all those
countries and HASBRO-distributors listed?
Is written/scanned proof of the existence of these distributors NOT
enough proof that Transformers are also sold on mainland Europe?
Aziraphale and his 4-piece Grimlock
<grounds...@chello.se> formulated :
<snip>
>Let's try it with a few examples from a hypothetical toy list with an
>"Europe-centric" outlook. I have created a designation "NA" for North
>America, and have added a few Europe-exclusive toys to help you get in the
>right mood. :-)
>
>BLAZE - G2 Sparkabot
>CHEETOR - Deluxe Maximal ("Cheetas"-J, "Vélocitor"-NA)
Called "GHEPARD" in parts of Europe (I HAVE PROOF OF THIS - CATALOGUE
SCANS)
>FLASH - G1 Turbomaster
>JETSTORM - Deluxe Beast Machine ("L'Orageux"-NA)
>
Oh, well, let's just give the whole bloody list of European name
variations for BeastWars (according to European catalogues):
Series 1 (1996 (<= copyright) range):
Optimus Primal (Bat) - Black Jack
Megatron
Insecticon
Iguanus
Armordillo - Armodillo
Terrorsaur
Rattrap - Rattilus
Razorbeast - Razor
Wolfang -Wolf
Rhinox
Cheetor - Ghepard
Tarantulas
Waspinator - Punginator
Dinobot
Polar Claw
Scorponok
Series 2 (1997 range):
Airazor - Falcon
Claw Jaw - Octopus
Razorclaw - Granchius
Insecticon
Megatron
Optimus Primal - (Black Jack agian, but only on packaging IIRC)
Cybershark - Squalo Tigre
Jetstorm - Libellula
Waspinator - Punginator
Rhinox
Inferno
B'Boom - Mandrillo
Series 3 (Transmetals & Fuzors):
Tarantulas - Metal Tarantulas
Rhinox - Metal Rhinox
Cheetor - Metal Ghepard
Megatron - Metal T-Rex
Optimus Primal - Metal Gorilla
Sky Shadow - Locusta
Injector - Terror Torpedo
Silverbolt - Grifo
Quickstrike - Serpex
Air Hammer - Squalo Volante
Terragator - Terror Caiman
Bantor
Noctorro - Toro Alato
Series 4:
All the same (AFAIK), except for Jawbreaker, who is called Cackle.
Anyone want to add anything?
Aziraphale and his 4-piece Grimlock
<wii...@hotmail.com> formulated :
<snip>
>Anyway, let's review.
>
>1) Sipher's list is American centric. SO IS THE TRANSFORMERS LINE.
>Deal.
>
So according to you, Euro-exclusives don't exist, and Transformers in
Japan is NOT a big thing?!?
Transformers can also be called Japan-centric, or Euro-centric, or
whatever!
>2) It's not even a list that attempts to list all the names for various toys
>in
>various countries. It only tires to list actual mold differences. And
>Sipher's
>not exactly the most strict when it comes to mold differences -- some of
>them
>are so minor it's not worth mentioning, and he adheres to this.
>
We're not talking only about mold differences, because it can very
well be the same toy WITH mold differences AND A DIFFERENT (EUROPEAN)
NAME.
<snip>
>4) America is also a very crappy place. I've been here. Any country that
>cultivates
>shitty food like McDonald's all over the globe should really be quartered
>and drawn.
>
You guys have meat with hormones, and we have meat with
cattle-diseases... ;)
<snip>
M Sipher
news:3addd7d5...@news.wxs.nl...
> >CHEETOR - Deluxe Maximal ("Cheetas"-J, "Vélocitor"-NA)
>
> Called "GHEPARD" in parts of Europe (I HAVE PROOF OF THIS - CATALOGUE
> SCANS)
Fine. Then I shall take "Vélocitor" and "Ghepard" and add those names to the
list, noting that they were, to use Azi's own words, called that "in parts
of Europe".
> >FLASH - G1 Turbomaster
> >JETSTORM - Deluxe Beast Machine ("L'Orageux"-NA)
> >
> Oh, well, let's just give the whole bloody list of European name
> variations for BeastWars (according to European catalogues):
> Series 4:
>
> All the same (AFAIK), except for Jawbreaker, who is called Cackle.
Tigerhawk was named something else I can't remember offhand, and since I
can't read both ATT and the newsgroup at the same time, won't look up. I've
got that name down in email (thank you, Brendocon), that's the important
part.
> Anyone want to add anything?
Please do. Throw in as many officially-used names as you can find. I'm all
for it. G1, G2 and Beast Machines too if you can find them.
M "People's Ability To Find A Toy In The List By Name No Matter Where They
Are Is Far More Important Than The Market It Was In, As Far I'm Concerned"
Lars Eriksson
>While travelling through alt.toys.transformers on time/space
>coordinate Wed, 18 Apr 2001 01:01:47 GMT, "Lars Eriksson"
><grounds...@chello.se> formulated :
>
><snip>
>>Let's try it with a few examples from a hypothetical toy list with an
>>"Europe-centric" outlook. I have created a designation "NA" for North
>>America, and have added a few Europe-exclusive toys to help you get in the
>>right mood. :-)
>>BLAZE - G2 Sparkabot
>>CHEETOR - Deluxe Maximal ("Cheetas"-J, "Vélocitor"-NA)
>Called "GHEPARD" in parts of Europe (I HAVE PROOF OF THIS - CATALOGUE
>SCANS)
Yep, I'm well aware of that. :-) However, I deliberately left the Italian
name out (as well as and the Mexican name, Chitor), to not distract from the
point of my example - to give the American TransFans a chance to see what a
toy list without more specified area tags looks like to us.
"Cheetas" is obviously the Japanese name, so Vélocitor must be... the North
American name?
>>FLASH - G1 Turbomaster
>>JETSTORM - Deluxe Beast Machine ("L'Orageux"-NA)
Speaking about BM Jetstorm, it's almost a pity that Italy has stopped giving
the imported Transformers different names. I was kind of looking forward to
seeing all the variants. Could Jetstorm have been called "Libellua" again,
or is that name related to the Beast Warrior's insect form, so that the
Italians would have had to come up with something new? Now we will never
know. :-)
M Sipher
> I think that it would suffice to mention that the names with the [E]
> tag refer only to certain countries in Europe, not the whole of Europe.
The currently-amended list (which has not been posted yet since I haven't
made all the changes/additions/corrections I want to) does state as such.
> And besides, Australia isn't even IN Europe...
No, but they got pretty much all the same toys, which is frankly the big
issue. They got the toys meant for a much larger general market, the one
commonly referred to as "European".
M "If They Got All Of Japan's Toys I'd Slap Them Under THAT Market, Which
Near As I Can Tell Covers A Good Wad Of Mainland Asia..." Sipher
M Sipher
> Is written/scanned proof of the existence of these distributors NOT
> enough proof that Transformers are also sold on mainland Europe?
Funny, I don't remember hearing anyone claiming that Transformers weren't
sold in mainland Europe.
M "Unless I Missed A Meeting Or Something" Sipher
M Sipher
news:3ADDC43F...@texas.net...
> So while the list won't differentiate which Euro TF names are UK and
> non-UK, at least it'll list them all under a reasonably appropriate tag.
> No, it's not absolutely accurate, but at least it's unbiasedly
> inaccurate. :-)
As much as any other market tag used.
> The [E] tag will now be taken to mean "Names in various
> European markets, generally starting with the name used in the UK."
But not Canada. Canada and Mexico get their own tag.
M "Now, Can We Shut Up?" Sipher
M Sipher
news:VGcD6.3576$Qp1....@nntp1.chello.se...
> M Sipher wrote:
>
> >Maybe if you actually SHARED the info rather than whine vaguely about
> >unspecific info not being there, I could put it in for future updates?
You
> >know, CONTRIBUTE? Many other people over the years have done so.
>
> I TRIED sharing information,
Bullshit. You whined. Had you simply said emailed me with a list of various
names used for various Transformers in various parts of Europe, I'd have put
them in, no sweat. Instead you went "you know that list doesn't have etc
etc? Why not?"
Brendocon, on the other hand, actually came forward with genuine information
and shared it in a helpful fashion. So right now I have a nice big list of
French names of Beast Wars toys used in France and not French Canada, so now
the listing can be amended FOR THE NEXT TIME I POST IT.
> but neither you or Zobovor seem to believe
> that it's particularly important to get the information right.
BULLSHIT. I don't feel like putting down "He was called 'Riijyak' in
Pottsylvania, Scandlevania, Castlevania, and small bits of Nothingfjord"
alongside a full list of applicable countries for every other language's
version of the name, because that would greatly increase the size of the
list and really be of minimal use to pretty much everyone, plus potentially
take up more space than the PURPOSE of the list, the physical changes made
to the toys... when a simple marker that denotes "this name/toy was use/sold
in some parts of this market, commonly referred to as the 'European' market
since that's where most of these were centered" does the neccessary job and
takes up minimal space.
I mean, if I wanted to get pissy about where things were and weren't
called/released, I'd put up notes about how, say, the original-color
Deployers never made it to North Carolina's retail shelves to the best of my
knowledge. I mean, NC is vastly different from, say, Idaho. Or Rhode Island.
Or California, which might as well be its own damn planet. Or that some
states don't have Target stores yet, so therefore the Target-exclusive
release of Magmatron never showed there.
Christ, I don't even bother with some of the PHYSICAL CHANGES TO THE TOYS,
like copyright stamps and whether or not they have those heat-sensitive
decals, or chrome tints (because it seems pretty obvious that there's a
limited amount of control in how chrome colors are gonna turn out which will
vary from batch to batch). And physical changes are what the list is all
about.
> After that I have listed examples, to try to make people see *why* it's
> so important that the European names are properly attributed. But that
> hasn't helped either - so far everyone has been ignoring the hypothetical
> "Europe-centric" toy list that I described to try to get you to see
> things from our point of view. Obviously that hasn't helped either - you
> just don't *want* to understand.
BULLSHIT. I'm just well-adjusted enough to go "hey, whaddaya know, they call
him mainly by 'Cheetor' in large wads of Europe too" AND GET ON WITH MY LIFE
RATHER THAN KVETCH AND WHINE. And yes, "Ve(insert ' thing)locitor" IS a
North American name. *A* North American name, right next to "Cheetor". I can
cope. I don't expect every European to call Cheets "Ve'locitor" every time
they refer to the character when talking to me. And if they do, I'll say,
"oh, you mean Cheetor". Matter resolved.
Funny, I don't hear much from the Britons and Australians on the matter. And
Australia, last I checked, wasn't part of Europe. Yet they got more or less
all the same toys, hence the inclusion of that sub-market under the big
E-banner.
> It was one
> example, listed next to Jung's Toy List and Alvarez' latest TF guide, of
> how ignorant TransFandom in general is of the nature of the European TF
> market. Because that is what I have been talking about - the tendency to
> handle European TF names without bothering to check the facts.
Frankly, the only "facts" I feel that are of any RELEVANCY to this list as
far as names go is "was this name actually used in THIS GENERAL MARKET?".
"Is this a name that people will acutally know the toy by, therefore its
inclusion will help people find the toy's entry should they be looking for
it?"
> It already includes a lot of Mexican, Canadian, and European names, and
> since it does, I think it's only reasonable to expect that they are
> properly attributed.
And as I have pointed out, I am amending the list to REFLECT that the
Canadian and Mexican names AREN'T part of that European market. And as long
as a name IS used in the European market (UK included), then, it's "properly
attributed" enough.
> >Christ, I didn't even use to BOTHER with alt-names. Just went with a
single
> >name, the one used in the main market it was sold in.
>
> Didn't use to, perhaps, but you DO bother with the alt-names now.
> And since you do... like I said above, I think it's only reasonable to
> expect that they're properly attributed.
And I'm trying to, BUT WITHIN BOUNDS. As in, "this was a name used in parts
of the European market". How EXACTLY is that misinformation? Where's the
lie? Exactly how many people are gonna ask "yeah, but where?". Or should I
just drop it all and go with "it was a name/variant used/sold on the planet
Earth"? It's tempting, because frankly all this
border/nationality/separation talk makes my fists itch.
Now that someone's shown that the Canadian-French names are different from
the French-French names, I can amend that and move the Canadian names to
thier own market. This is called being helpful.
> >And that the EXISTANCE of many names all under the "European" banner
should
> >suffice in driving home the point that any given toy isn't called one
name
> >in the whole of Europe, AS I SAY IN THE INTRODUCTION SECTION?
>
> And where in the introduction, if I may ask, is that information?
> There is nothing in the intro which indicates that a certain name isn't
used
> in the entire area. This is what you say about alternate names:
I haven't posted the amended version yet because if I posted the whole
godsdamn list every time I made any sort of alteration I'd be posting it
every damn day, if not every hour. I rather like to make sure I've got a
nice amount of substantial changes before I go slapping a dozen portions of
list onto the newsgroups. Plus this way people don't have to go constantly
downloading and saving new changes every day, and the newgroup isn't
clogged.
Plus I am not able to make all the changes I feel are neccessary in a single
sitting. I have a damn life. I spent two days simply shifting the format of
various sections and I'm STILL not done with that for all of them, thanks to
work and other projects and life away from this computer.
This list ISN'T final. It never has been. It has undergone more changes,
additions, removals, alterations, total revamps, and miniscule tweaks than I
can count in its what, six-year-plus history. And it will continue to do so.
Not once have I said "this list will never change, this is final, this is
the law".
And I am TRYING to accommodate this new information in a way that I feel
will benefit and be easily readable by the largest number of people
possible. And I'm sorry, but I DON'T feel a comprehensive listing of every
single European nation that may or may not have gotten any given toy or name
would make a positive contribution to this list, any more than a
comprehensive listing of every single locale in the Americas, Asia, Africa,
or Australia that may or may not have gotten any given toy or name would.
Remember them? They share this pebble too.
If you want a listing of every single European nation's releases and names,
MAKE IT YOURSELF.
M "And I Am DONE On This Matter, Other Than Writing Down All These New
Names" Sipher
Joona I Palaste
> Aziraphale and his 4-piece Grimlock <tha...@bio.vu.nl> wrote in message
> news:3addd7d5...@news.wxs.nl...
>> >CHEETOR - Deluxe Maximal ("Cheetas"-J, "Vélocitor"-NA)
>>
>> Called "GHEPARD" in parts of Europe (I HAVE PROOF OF THIS - CATALOGUE
>> SCANS)
> Fine. Then I shall take "Vélocitor" and "Ghepard" and add those names to the
> list, noting that they were, to use Azi's own words, called that "in parts
> of Europe".
I believe you misunderstand a bit here...
The name "Ghepard" is indeed used in parts of Europe. However, the name
"Vélocitor" is not, at least Aziraphale or Lars did not say it is.
Lars said: "NA" refers to the North American market. So "Vélocitor"-NA
means that Cheetor was called Vélocitor in at least one North American
country. Now as we all know, the intersection of North America and
Europe is empty, ie. no North American country is an European country,
and no European country is a North American country.
Thus, it can be concluded that neither Lars or Aziraphale ever said
Cheetor was called "Vélocitor" anywhere in Europe. "Ghepard", yes, but
not "Vélocitor".
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"To doo bee doo bee doo."
- Frank Sinatra
Joona I Palaste
> news:3adddecb...@news.wxs.nl...
>> Is written/scanned proof of the existence of these distributors NOT
>> enough proof that Transformers are also sold on mainland Europe?
> Funny, I don't remember hearing anyone claiming that Transformers weren't
> sold in mainland Europe.
Didn't Zobovor claim that there weren't any Hasbro offices in mainland
Europe?
No one ever claimed *independent stores* didn't sell Transformers in
mainland Europe. But those stores got the Transformers from their local
Hasbro offices, not from Hasbro UK.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"Hasta la Vista, Abie!"
- Bart Simpson
Darwinian Road Kill
: Brendocon, on the other hand, actually came forward with genuine information
: and shared it in a helpful fashion. So right now I have a nice big list of
: French names of Beast Wars toys used in France and not French Canada, so now
: the listing can be amended FOR THE NEXT TIME I POST IT.
Ya know, I have a bunch of bilingual Canadian cardbacks and
catalogues... methinks I should send you an email or three. :)
: BULLSHIT. I don't feel like putting down "He was called 'Riijyak' in
: Pottsylvania, Scandlevania, Castlevania, and small bits of Nothingfjord"
Hey, what about the Carbombyan TF Market? ;)
: Funny, I don't hear much from the Britons and Australians on the matter. And
: Australia, last I checked, wasn't part of Europe. Yet they got more or less
: all the same toys, hence the inclusion of that sub-market under the big
: E-banner.
I wsa going to point out that The Republic of Ireland is prolly the only
thing that qualifies as "close neighbours to UK" -- but seeing as how I've
heard *Nothing* about Gaelic-named TFs -- it's a safe bet that they got
the same stuff too. (I could be wrong, but I'm losing even less sleep over
it than you. )
Ryan :>
(won't be saying any more on the subject, unless he's sure it'll help)
--
"People who like penguins are nice people" -- Eric Bennett
(Fact: If my .sig gets over 10 lines, you can hit me)
"Finwork is a transformer is a stupid toy." Trypticon X
My half-baked site: www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/8720
TF code: G++ AD/A OP/Q P212 ICQ:43171844
Andrew Crane
news:9bkuhp$qta$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> Funny, I don't hear much from the Britons and Australians on the matter.
OK then, I've give my honest opinion. Sipher-boy, I _really_ don't think
you need to bother cataloging *any* of the European, Mexican or French
Canadian toy names for your variations list! C'mon, every recent
Transformer on a trilingual card I own (Biocombat, Animutants, Canadian
BW) has the familiar names printed in ENGLISH anyway. Honestly, I think
it'd be a total waste of time compiling all those toy names. (Although you
should continue to list the Japanese alternate names, obv.)
Joona I Palaste
> I wsa going to point out that The Republic of Ireland is prolly the only
> thing that qualifies as "close neighbours to UK" -- but seeing as how I've
> heard *Nothing* about Gaelic-named TFs -- it's a safe bet that they got
> the same stuff too. (I could be wrong, but I'm losing even less sleep over
> it than you. )
What's particularly *Gaelic* about *the Republic of Ireland*? If you
speak Gaelic to an Irishman, he'll probably not understand a word, and
ask you to speak English or Irish (Eire) instead.
Gaelic is what they speak in Scotland, you know that funny place at the
northern part of Great Britain where the men wear kilts and play
bagpipes. This is in contrast to the Republic of Ireland, where men wear
trousers and look for leprechauns with pots of gold. =)
Joona I Palaste
Andrew has a right to his opinion, of course, but personally I do not
agree to it all.
M is already doing a fairly good job at cataloging European, Mexican and
French Canadian toy names. Not perfect, but good enough for my
standards. Why should he stop doing that?
If M is supposed to list the Japanese names, why not the non-English
European ones as well? What's so particularly special about Japanese?
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"Hasta la Vista, Abie!"
- Bart Simpson
James Wilson
: Perhaps I am in error here, but I was under the impression that the vast
: majority of European toys *were* produced in the United Kingdom. I've
: seen many references to Hasbro UK on this newsgroup, but never a Hasbro
: Italy or Hasbro Czechoslovakia. Am I misinformed?
Yep. The UK missed out on some G1 toys available in other parts of Europe
(eg. Trypticon) so there has to be some other Hasbro's around.
And I know Italy got most of the toys released in the US which the UK didn't
get (eg. 2nd wave of large Pretenders, the Clones, Sixshot, Predacons, etc,
etc), they even got Galaxy Shuttle.
James
--
UK comic scans:
http://uktfcomics.cjb.net/
Generation 1 Instruction Scans:
http://tfinstructions.cjb.net/
M Sipher
> M Sipher <msi...@mindspring.com> scribbled the following:
> > Aziraphale and his 4-piece Grimlock <tha...@bio.vu.nl> wrote in message
> > news:3adddecb...@news.wxs.nl...
>
> >> Is written/scanned proof of the existence of these distributors NOT
> >> enough proof that Transformers are also sold on mainland Europe?
>
> > Funny, I don't remember hearing anyone claiming that Transformers
weren't
> > sold in mainland Europe.
>
> Didn't Zobovor claim that there weren't any Hasbro offices in mainland
> Europe?
No, he said he'd never seen reference to such an animal. There's a distinct
difference.
M "Which I Admit I Hadn't Seen Any Reference Of Either" Sipher
M Sipher
news:3ade0eab$0$12243$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
> "M Sipher" <msi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:9bkuhp$qta$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> > Funny, I don't hear much from the Britons and Australians on the matter.
>
> OK then, I've give my honest opinion.
Actually, this make two Brits now, assuming I'm not radically misreading
Brendocon's email addy...
> Sipher-boy, I _really_ don't think
> you need to bother cataloging *any* of the European, Mexican or French
> Canadian toy names for your variations list! C'mon, every recent
> Transformer on a trilingual card I own (Biocombat, Animutants, Canadian
> BW) has the familiar names printed in ENGLISH anyway. Honestly, I think
> it'd be a total waste of time compiling all those toy names. (Although you
> should continue to list the Japanese alternate names, obv.)
Now, here I must disagree, for reasons I've stated earlier but will go over
anyway.
Firsties, there's the simple "neat info" factor. This is pretty much
self-explanitory.
Secondly, while I'm aware of the proliferation of English names, I still
want someone who knows of the TM2 hyena only as "Cackle" or whatever to be
able to do a word search on the name and find it in the list. Or Zap or
Vif-Argent or whatever the name is in the language they happen to speak.
(Though how much info they'll gleam from a list written entirely in English,
I dunno, but that's their problem now.)
As such, I'll keep cataloging the names, if only for the same reason I do
the Tonka GoBots...
M "There's Gotta Be One SOMEWHERE, Why The Hell Not Here?" Sipher
M Sipher
news:9bl0q5$5dm$1...@nntp.itservices.ubc.ca...
> M Sipher (msi...@mindspring.com) wrote:
> : Brendocon, on the other hand, actually came forward with genuine
information
> : and shared it in a helpful fashion. So right now I have a nice big list
of
> : French names of Beast Wars toys used in France and not French Canada, so
now
> : the listing can be amended FOR THE NEXT TIME I POST IT.
>
> Ya know, I have a bunch of bilingual Canadian cardbacks and
> catalogues... methinks I should send you an email or three. :)
That'd be good. I'd picked up a fair number of the names earlier, but could
do with a total refresher (since I think I lost some of those ' thingies
over the "e"s in places). But just send a written list, please, no scans. (I
hate huge images slaped to emails...)
> Hey, what about the Carbombyan TF Market? ;)
They don't have one since it is a tool of the decadent capitalist swine.
> : Funny, I don't hear much from the Britons and Australians on the matter.
And
> : Australia, last I checked, wasn't part of Europe. Yet they got more or
less
> : all the same toys, hence the inclusion of that sub-market under the big
> : E-banner.
>
> I wsa going to point out that The Republic of Ireland is prolly the only
> thing that qualifies as "close neighbours to UK" -- but seeing as how I've
> heard *Nothing* about Gaelic-named TFs -- it's a safe bet that they got
> the same stuff too. (I could be wrong, but I'm losing even less sleep over
> it than you. )
If there's Irish-exclusive stuff, I'm keen on knowing about it.
M "It'll Go Under (E), Mind" Sipher
Douglas W. Dlin
>
> Douglas W. Dlin <ap...@texas.net> wrote in message
> news:3ADDC43F...@texas.net...
>
> > So while the list won't differentiate which Euro TF names are UK and
> > non-UK, at least it'll list them all under a reasonably appropriate tag.
> > No, it's not absolutely accurate, but at least it's unbiasedly
> > inaccurate. :-)
>
> As much as any other market tag used.
>
>> The [E] tag will now be taken to mean "Names in various
>> European markets, generally starting with the name used in the UK."
>
> But not Canada. Canada and Mexico get their own tag.
Right, which is why I figured the explanation would say "European
markets" as opposed to "non-US North American markets." :-)
> M "Now, Can We Shut Up?" Sipher
"Shutting up, sir..."
Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com
Hotdog Brendoconvoy
> Yep. The UK missed out on some G1 toys available in other parts of Europe
> (eg. Trypticon) so there has to be some other Hasbro's around.
As far as I was aware, TFs were distributed by Linea Gig in Italy, not
Hasbro.
===
Brendocon
as per normal, I *could* be wrong...
Andrew Crane
> M is already doing a fairly good job at cataloging European, Mexican and
> French Canadian toy names. Not perfect, but good enough for my
> standards. Why should he stop doing that?
Maybe I worded that message a bit ambiguously. I don't think he should
give up cataloguing Transformers names form Europe/where-ever, just that
it does seem a bit needless on the grand scheme of things.
> If M is supposed to list the Japanese names, why not the non-English
> European ones as well? What's so particularly special about Japanese?
Japanese Transformers have always been in big demand by the collectors'
market, and obviously have a greater rarity factor than any European TF
toys past or present. Plus their continuity and toy ranges tend to be
different from everywhere else's. :-)
Marc Graham
> Darwinian Road Kill <hr...@interchange.ubc.ca> scribbled the following:
> > I wsa going to point out that The Republic of Ireland is prolly the only
> > thing that qualifies as "close neighbours to UK" -- but seeing as how
I've
> > heard *Nothing* about Gaelic-named TFs -- it's a safe bet that they got
> > the same stuff too. (I could be wrong, but I'm losing even less sleep
over
> > it than you. )
>
> What's particularly *Gaelic* about *the Republic of Ireland*? If you
> speak Gaelic to an Irishman, he'll probably not understand a word, and
> ask you to speak English or Irish (Eire) instead.
> Gaelic is what they speak in Scotland, you know that funny place at the
> northern part of Great Britain where the men wear kilts and play
> bagpipes. This is in contrast to the Republic of Ireland, where men wear
> trousers and look for leprechauns with pots of gold. =)
Joona you are very much mistaken. The Irish language is commonly referred to
as Gaelic - it is the most common form of the Gaelic language - a
"variation" of which is Scots Gaelic. Gaelic is the language of the Celts -
which includes the Scottish and the Welsh. Eire is in fact the Irish name
for the Island of Ireland (also called Eireann). You should at least have an
idea what you're talking about before you stick your foot in your mouth.
(Whoops - foot and mouth - touchy subject there! [Good thing there no
Transforming Sheep])
Oh yeah, back to those Transforming thingies. Hasbro do in fact have some
factories in the Republic of Ireland, however the toys distributed in the
RoI are generally the same as those in the UK with no real variation (i.e. -
same multi-lingual packaging with BW/etc.) On occasions the toys will be
more expensive (due more to the exchange rate rather than anything else I
suppose) but I still got my G1 Megatron for £10 Irish way back in '92.
Marc. (And there's no truth to the rumour that G2 Optimus' voice box for the
Irish release said "Sod this fighting craic - I'm off to the pub". [And why
oh why are we still awaiting the PAL release of TF:TM..])
Andrew Crane
news:v6JD6.2023$yb1.3...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Joona you are very much mistaken. The Irish language is commonly
referred to
> as Gaelic - it is the most common form of the Gaelic language - a
> "variation" of which is Scots Gaelic.
True. Also, roadsigns in Ireland are bilingual, and the teaching of Gaelic
language is compulsory in RoI schools.
> You should at least have an idea what you're talking about before you
stick
> your foot in your mouth.
> (Whoops - foot and mouth - touchy subject there! [Good thing there no
> Transforming Sheep])
What about Ramulus? :o)
More ObTF (this thread's getting a bit off-topic): Anyone else hope Hasbro
use some more Japanese moulds to bolster the ranks of the Predacons in
RiD? I'd love to see nifty recolours of Dead End and Bazooka at some
point...
M Sipher
> More ObTF (this thread's getting a bit off-topic): Anyone else hope Hasbro
> use some more Japanese moulds to bolster the ranks of the Predacons in
> RiD? I'd love to see nifty recolours of Dead End and Bazooka at some
> point...
I have thought about this. Thing is, Dead & Bazzy really wouldn't fit the
"look" of RiD's villains at all.
The Cyborg Beasts (Hellscream, Max B, Thrustol & Dirgegun) from BW2,
however, would match the small TM2s quite nicely.
Possibly even the two "new" Auto Rollers (AutoLauncher & AutoJetter), either
side (though why not keep 'em Preds).
Gigastorm?
M "Unlikely, Mind, Since I Think We've Probably Seen Most If Not All Of
RiD's Offerings, Unless Hasbro's Pushing 2002's Line Back A Couple
Months..." Sipher
M Sipher
> "Joona I Palaste" <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:9bl38r$753$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> > M is already doing a fairly good job at cataloging European, Mexican and
> > French Canadian toy names. Not perfect, but good enough for my
> > standards. Why should he stop doing that?
>
> Maybe I worded that message a bit ambiguously. I don't think he should
> give up cataloguing Transformers names form Europe/where-ever, just that
> it does seem a bit needless on the grand scheme of things.
Well,m yes, but then, in the grand scheme of things, ATT is needless.
> > If M is supposed to list the Japanese names, why not the non-English
> > European ones as well? What's so particularly special about Japanese?
>
> Japanese Transformers have always been in big demand by the collectors'
> market, and obviously have a greater rarity factor than any European TF
> toys past or present.
Hmmm. That's... debatable. Well, the rarity part, at any rate. I don't think
anyone's done a real comparison.
> Plus their continuity and toy ranges tend to be
> different from everywhere else's. :-)
True. But the European-market-exclusive stuff does have its own look and
feel to it that frankly, for the time (late G1), I PREFER.
No, really, I generally like the TurboMasters and Trakkons/Lightformers and
their ilk more than most of the Japan-exclusive G1 stuff. I find them more
imaginative and more fun to play with, plus they made better attempts at new
transformation schemes.
M "It's Distinctive, I'll Give It That At Least" Sipher
Andrew Crane
> Well,m yes, but then, in the grand scheme of things, ATT is needless.
So are Transformers, I s'pose.
> > Japanese Transformers have always been in big demand by the
collectors'
> > market, and obviously have a greater rarity factor than any European
TF
> > toys past or present.
> Hmmm. That's... debatable. Well, the rarity part, at any rate. I don't
think
> anyone's done a real comparison.
Err, I meant desiriability amongst fan collectors. Fans still seem to
flock to stuff like, say, Stepper and Star Convoy in a way they don't with
the Stormtroopers and Skyquake (at least from personal experience). (But
what am I on about? The Euro Action Masters are still some of the most
desirable G1 toys around.)
> > Plus their continuity and toy ranges tend to be
> > different from everywhere else's. :-)
[SNIP]
> No, really, I generally like the TurboMasters and Trakkons/Lightformers
and
> their ilk more than most of the Japan-exclusive G1 stuff. I find them
more
> imaginative and more fun to play with, plus they made better attempts at
new
> transformation schemes.
Aaargh! I'd forgotten all about those Euro-exclusives at the end of G1.
I'll admit it now - I messed up. Maybe I should have worded my original
post as such...
On the scale of things, listing dozens of European alternate names does
seem a bit unnecessary. But you should definitely list the all Euro
variations/exclusives/fun stuff that's out there.
(BTW, has anyone else noticed that Italian Transformers from the '80s seem
to have the Japanese ID numbers?)
Zobovor
>As far as I was aware, TFs were distributed by Linea Gig in Italy, not
>Hasbro.
Actually, Gig's toy line was called Trasformer, and apparently pre-dates
Hasbro's Transformers brand line in its inception. They licensed the Diaclone
toys from Takara much as Hasbro would do a year or so later for Transformers.
After the Transformers were released worldwide, Gig's Trasformer toy line
started using label sheets with Autobot/Decepticon symbols on them, as Takara
was now supplying them with official Transformers product.
Somehow I find it hard to believe that some division of Hasbro in Italy would
have been selling Transformers brand toys right alongside Gig's Trasformer
toys. Then again, stranger things have happened. </snake>
Zobovor
don't.]
M Sipher wrote:
>SHRAPNEL ("Sharpnel"-J)
> Insecticon - Electronic Warfare
> 1. Black & purple lamellicorn beetle, fins on back of weapon
> 2. Black & purple lamellicorn beetle, no fins on back of weapon
Sipher, I just dug out my Insecticons toys and I've got a Shrapnel with a rub
symbol indent on the back of his leg and one without the indent. (He's got a
Hasbro stamp, so I know he's not Diaclone stock.) Also, the version with the
indent has got smaller fins on the back of his legs, and the panels on the tops
of his feet are more narrow than the non-indent version.
Have you ever been to Freds Workshop's variations page, by the way? He's got
lots of pictures. :)
--
Zobovor
ZMFTS: Web servers are designed only to hold web pages in place; therefore
propulsion from a site launch will be weak, if at all.
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html