How much WERE Transformers selling for?
Jim
reissues' effect on original G1 prices.
Not counting reissues, what's the most you've paid for a Transformer
this year? Now, how much did you pay for a Transformer in, say 1999 or
2000 (right before reissues came out)?
And in particular, what were some of the market prices for loose
Transformers around '99-2000? What was the price of a loose Tracks? I
seem to remember he was just under $100 wasn't he?
Either people are losing interest in the Transformers again, or
something, because I've noticed a significant drop in some prices of
late on ebay. Are people just not buying anything right now, or are
Transformers beginning to lose their punch again? What i can't
understand is why a rare toy suddenly becomes less desirable just
because a copy becomes available? It's not the same toy! It might be
close, but there are differences.
I don't think I'll ever understand why prices go up or down. It just
doesn't make sense to me. Aside from the whole "supply and demand"
principle, what exactly am i missing here?
Zac Bond
"Jim" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:bln44k$dlt9f$1...@ID-198146.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Either people are losing interest in the Transformers again, or
> something, because I've noticed a significant drop in some prices of
> late on ebay. Are people just not buying anything right now, or are
> Transformers beginning to lose their punch again?
There's all kinds of reasons; collector's markets of any kind are
extremely volatile. SOme of the reasons I imagine are affecting
Transformers prices:
-Availability of high-quality reissues
-Availability of another, cheaper, line of vehicle-related
Transformers toys
-The wearing thin of the fad that made old 80's stuff so popular
(possibly, although the opposite, an increase in popularity of other
old toys, might have an effect too)
-General economic downturn
-Whiny anti-reissue sellers turning people off
Frankly, if prices really do go down significant;y, I'd prefer to
think of it as the era of Transformer price inflation ending, even
though that isn't really a correct thing to say either.
> What i can't
> understand is why a rare toy suddenly becomes less desirable just
> because a copy becomes available? It's not the same toy! It might
be
> close, but there are differences.
The answer is obvious--people want to buy the *toy* without paying for
the *rare*. Before reissues, the only choice was "rare toy." Now
people have the option between "rare toy" and "remade toy." The
differences are minor, and many people don't want to pay an extra $60
or more for shorter and/or chrome missles.
Consumer choice is a beautiful thing.
-Zac
Jim
news:bln6on$nv1$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
around '99? I really think a database of past values would be an
interesting thing to have around. Price guides seem to never notice a
change, whether an increase or a decrease. They play by their own
rules. I could swear he was selling for at or just under $100 back
then.
Actually, I thought that fans wanted *all* the Transformers. Whether or
not a reissue is available, the original is still out there. It
shouldn't bring down value, but for some reason unknown to me, it is.
Differences in the toys aside, there's still the issue of the original
boxes. Sure some people just care about the toy, but I would think
quite a few hardcore Transformers fans would still want the original
box, as it's quite different from these reissue clones' boxes. Maybe I
should chock it up to my own blindness, but I remember a time when the
boxes were one of the big selling considerations of buying Transformers.
>
Purple Haze
Here's MY reasoning:
If you look hard enough, the absolute mint TFs from G1 MISN are still gold
mines. I just saw a Hound MISB 9.5+ going for $400+ on eBay with over a day
left last night, and quite a few more over $100 in the same condition. So
people ARE paying - people are just far pickier now. They're not gonna pay
$100 for anything that's not in perfect condition, or close to it.
Reissues certainly have a huge part of it, no doubt. 99% of the time, the
reissues' molds are the exact same, with the only differences being in
little things like the missles. If you ignored the missles and put, say, an
'84 Thundercracker next to a TRU Thundercracker, there's NO DIFFERENCE.
None. And it's in far better condition for $35 than one w/ sticker wear for
$50+. If the missles/weapon color are such a big deal, people just buy
those for $5-10. That's why you see big weapon/accessory lots on eBay for
about $25-100, depending on how many are included. Also, for many toy
collectors, they want the TOY, not the rarity. As long as it's the same
high-quality and licensed, it's still the same toy. It'll look the same on
a shelf. Some reissues include new accessories (OP with the mace, for ex.)
or improved color schemes (Takara's Anime Starscream, anyone?). I know I
nabbed Anime Starscream for the color scheme and the Megatron gun over the
original. It's far cooler, I doubt many would argue against that.
Another thing is back in '99 (since that's the reference year you used),
there wasn't much TF activity. No TV shows, no RiD yet, no Armada yet, so
it was just the hardcore collectors buying who were buying in a limited
market. Now that TFs are quite popular again, more and more people have dug
through their old toys and put them up for sale, hoping to cash in. That
leads to more supply. Lots more. Armada and RiD have also taken attention
away from collectors, giving them newer things to search for and buy.
One last small thing is there's a lot of kitbashers now who will buy two
broken TFs and make them into one good-as-new figure. It's not great for
resale value, but it got them what they wanted - a good-looking display
piece that still functions.
There's even more reasons, obviously, but I think these are the main ones.
Jason
Jim
Purple Haze <bedaz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vnugv8n...@corp.supernews.com...
reissued (yet?), so people will of course be paying more if they just
want the toy. Whether that changes for a MIB Hound after a reissue
happens, who knows? Personally, I'd rather have the original, because
it's the original. And--here's my nitpick argument again against
reissues--I thought it would stay this way for the forseeable future.
There aren't many things you can count on in this world, but I always
thought they would be the exception, something nice and unique to hand
down to the kids one day--an heirloom if you will and quite valuable. I
had no idea that reissues were taking place unti they were out. You
don't see normal heirlooms being reissued (to my knowledge anyway), so
why would Transformers? Well, I now know I was wrong. Just because a
company hasn't normally made a practice of reissuing their toys doesn't
mean they can't at any time! Anyway, I'm getting away from my point.
So if the same Hound were reissued, do you think people would still be
shelling out major bucks for him MISB? And do you think that reissues
will have a lasting effect on the value of MISB originals, or just
loose? And my final point, would an increase in the economy after a
reissue is available probably bring a better return if a person was to
sell than selling now while the economy isn't so good but a reissue
ISN'T available yet? All interesting questions I think. What's your
take?
Ka Faraq Gatri
>Let's take a poll of the effect of the changes in economy and possibly
>reissues' effect on original G1 prices.
>
>Not counting reissues, what's the most you've paid for a Transformer
>this year? Now, how much did you pay for a Transformer in, say 1999 or
>2000 (right before reissues came out)?
$300 for Fort Max. And if Hasbro could make him pass the drop test so
they could sell him again, I'd buy a second, inexpensive one in a
second!
>
>And in particular, what were some of the market prices for loose
>Transformers around '99-2000? What was the price of a loose Tracks? I
>seem to remember he was just under $100 wasn't he?
>
>Either people are losing interest in the Transformers again, or
>something, because I've noticed a significant drop in some prices of
>late on ebay. Are people just not buying anything right now, or are
>Transformers beginning to lose their punch again?
Well, the economy hasn't been that great recently. People have other
things to spend their money on besides cool old toys, and in many
cases, less money to spend. If it's a choice between food for a week
or Tracks, well ya gotta eat.
I'd say the success of the reissues (and they have to be a success
since Hasbro and Takara keep making more) shows that the interest in
TFs is staying quite high. We hardcore collectors can't account for
the entire success of the line.
> What i can't
>understand is why a rare toy suddenly becomes less desirable just
>because a copy becomes available?
Because the old rare one is expensive, while the copy is not. Also,
the original , even if mint in box, may have deteriorated. Plastic can
become brittle, tires can melt. And a loose one, even if just
displayed, will have some wear & tear, possibly stickers misapplied,
and other signs of age & use. A reissue is brand new, with all new
materials, and no wear and tear. You get to bang it up and misapply
the stickers yourself, instead of the previous owner doing it. :-) Why
should I pay $100 for a loose, used Tracks when I can get a boxed,
brand-new, never touched by human hands outside the factory one for
$30? It's not the original, but it plays the same and represents the
same character, so why should I care what vintage it is? It's the
coolness of the characters and the usually amazing blend of aesthetics
and engineering of the toys that has kept me interested for the last
19 years, not rarity and value. I only bought the older expensive ones
because there was no alternative if I wanted the toy. Now there is for
some figures, so of course I take advantage of it. Why buy one cool
toy for $100 when I can buy 3 and have enough left to get lunch at
Arby's?
> It's not the same toy! It might be
>close, but there are differences.
For most people, the differences don't matter. It looks mostly the
same, it plays mostly the same, it's the same character. For all
intents and purposes, it _is_ the same toy. It's just another varient.
Dave Connell aka Ka Faraq Gatri
kfg...@rcn.com
I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America,
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Ethan Hammond
$150 for Brave Max or whatever the price was when
BBTS first sold him is the most I have paid this year.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Elc
> Not counting reissues, what's the most you've paid for a Transformer
> this year? Now, how much did you pay for a Transformer in, say 1999 or
> 2000 (right before reissues came out)?
Excluding reissues? So far, for 2003, I have bought only two Transformers
and they have both been Generation 1 reissues, so my total would be $0.
Aside from reissues, the only Transformer I plan on buying is Unicron
which, with taxes included, is roughly $103 Canadian.
In the past few years, I have only bought one Transformer: RiD Optimus
Prime, and I think it was around $40 or $50 Canadian. I haven't really been
interested in any of the newer toys since the end of the Beast Wars line,
and aside from Unicron, reissues are all that I'll be buying for the
forseeable future.
Anthony "Tonyfitz" Brucale
> reissues' effect on original G1 prices.
>
> Not counting reissues, what's the most you've paid for a Transformer
> this year? Now, how much did you pay for a Transformer in, say 1999 or
> 2000 (right before reissues came out)?
The most this year? $135 for an E-Hobby Megaplex. In 1999, I spent $300 on a
MISB Marlboro Wheeljack (which is the most I've ever spent on one figure,
nothing since then comes close).
> And in particular, what were some of the market prices for loose
> Transformers around '99-2000? What was the price of a loose Tracks? I
> seem to remember he was just under $100 wasn't he?
A loose tracks at Botcon '99 would run between $35-55 depending on the deal
you could work out. I happened to get my Tracks (and a number of other
Autobot cars that year) at Botcon '99; I scored mine in trade, actually. I
traded a carded original Blackarachnia and a carded BW Buzzsaw for Tracks
minus his 3rd missile and a Red Bumblebee, both loose. G1 cars, on a whole,
went loose/complete for $35-55 in 1999, and as high as $70 by late 2000.
MISB figures still drew ungodly amounts, I'd estimate from $150-300.
> Either people are losing interest in the Transformers again, or
> something, because I've noticed a significant drop in some prices of
> late on ebay. Are people just not buying anything right now, or are
> Transformers beginning to lose their punch again? What i can't
> understand is why a rare toy suddenly becomes less desirable just
> because a copy becomes available? It's not the same toy! It might be
> close, but there are differences.
Well, there's a number of reasons. For me, the differences have to hinge on
displayability. If I can display a resissue of a figure I already own and
some know on-sight, that is it different than the original, then it's worth
it for me to buy. On the flipside of that, many people just prefer to have a
reasonably accurrate representation of the character, thus, minor
changesmean little to them.
The rare toy then becomes less valuable, because the number of people who
may have been interested in purchasing it has now been divided and
diminished. If one person wants Jazz, but doesn't care about the missile
changes, they can decide to buy the reissue or Japanese reissue, brand new,
either at the same cost of what a losse complete figure would have run them
4 years ago.
> I don't think I'll ever understand why prices go up or down. It just
> doesn't make sense to me. Aside from the whole "supply and demand"
> principle, what exactly am i missing here?
That's just it, it is the Supply and Demand principle. Less competition for
the original figure means lower prices due to larger supply of that
character's representation.
--
--Ant
*******************************************
Anthony "Tonyfitz" Brucale
*******************************************
Webmaster - www.tfu.info
*******************************************
Desperado00
>reissues' effect on original G1 prices.
>Not counting reissues, what's the most you've paid for a Transformer
>this year? Now, how much did you pay for a Transformer in, say 1999 or
>2000 (right before reissues came out)?
Alrighty. This year, $50 for Unicron, as well as Powermaster Optimus Prime.
The most I've ever spent for a Transformer was $125 for Brave Maximus, in 2001.
-----
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
An egotist is a self-made man who worships his creator.
If we aren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
No horse is too dead to beat.
Jess
>collectors, they want the TOY, not the rarity. As long as it's the same
>high-quality and licensed, it's still the same toy. It'll look the same on
>a shelf.
Thats a big part of it. *Most* Transformers collectors want something out of
the box that they can Transform; that *is* the hook on these things, anyways. I
just recently auctioned of my MIB 1984 Optimus Prime, which I got $150 for, and
considered myself lucky. Which makes me wonder what my Megatron will go
for...........its MIB, also.........but since Megs will *never* be re-released
in the states I wonder how it will do.
The whole collection going piece by piece!
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=jesteri
nazz&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50
Ka Faraq Gatri
>> Zac, do you remember how much a mint loose Tracks was selling for
>around '99? I really think a database of past values would be an
>interesting thing to have around. Price guides seem to never notice a
>change, whether an increase or a decrease. They play by their own
>rules. I could swear he was selling for at or just under $100 back
>then.
>
>Actually, I thought that fans wanted *all* the Transformers. Whether or
>not a reissue is available, the original is still out there. It
>shouldn't bring down value, but for some reason unknown to me, it is.
Well, there are completists who want every version of every figure.
There are those who still want the original, rather than the reissue.
And then there are the ones who are satisfied with one varient, and
whether it's the original, a later run version with some
modifications, or a 2002 reissue is irrelevant. For many, myself
included, the reissues count just fine as that one representation of
the character.
>Differences in the toys aside, there's still the issue of the original
>boxes. Sure some people just care about the toy, but I would think
>quite a few hardcore Transformers fans would still want the original
>box, as it's quite different from these reissue clones' boxes. Maybe I
>should chock it up to my own blindness, but I remember a time when the
>boxes were one of the big selling considerations of buying Transformers.
For some people, the boxes are important, but not all. Boxes may be
important to you, but that doesn't mean all collectors value them, or
even all "hardcore" TF collectors. I'm a hardcore TF fan, and I
couldn't care less about the packaging, apart from saving the Tech
Specs and artwork. When getting a figure from a dealer, "boxed" is a
last resort for me. I can't see paying a premium for a plastic bubble
and few pieces of cardboard. Those collectors who sought out the
original boxed toys may still do so, but those who bought loose ones,
or only bought boxed ones to be sure the figure was in the best
possible shape, the reissues are a great alternative. So basically,
the ones that really care about the boxes will probably still be
buying the originals. At least some others who just want the toy are
buying the reissues. And except for the use of Pat Lee artwork, the
new packaging is much nicer IMO. No flap on top to get bent, ripped,
folded, spindled, mutilated, etc.
Basically, what I'm saying here is that your preferences as a
collector aren't necessarily what others value. There are as many ways
to collect toys are there are collectors, and there's no such thing as
a wrong way to collect. If the prices are dropping, wouldn't that be a
good thing, since now you can buy the originals you like for less? I
really don't understand why you have such a problem with the reissues,
and with the current market for TFs.
Jim
Ka Faraq Gatri <kfg...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:4ns0ov4it4uti6f89...@4ax.com...
To some degree, that's true. But, as for the box issue, part of the
greatness of the original boxes were the awesome painted battle scenes
on the back. These Pat Lee ripped out of the comic images just don't
begin to match that! As for the flap, well, that's where the "fun"
comes in. Searching for that perfect box without such "bends, tears,
rips, etc." It's a hunt I grant you, but what collectors aren't by
nature also hunters? Otherwise, there would be no "great toy finds
today" or such posts.
>
> Basically, what I'm saying here is that your preferences as a
> collector aren't necessarily what others value. There are as many ways
> to collect toys are there are collectors, and there's no such thing as
> a wrong way to collect. If the prices are dropping, wouldn't that be a
> good thing, since now you can buy the originals you like for less? I
> really don't understand why you have such a problem with the reissues,
> and with the current market for TFs.
For an answer, see my other posts. It's not that I feel bad that others
are getting good deals. Yay for them! This centers more on the idea
that it's not an even playing field. Where were the reissues when
prices were so ungodly high in the first place? Lots of people spent
lots of money to find the originals in perfect shape, and it's sort of
an insult as a longtime fan to find that the new fans or those returning
to the hobby get more of a "free ride" that those who stayed with the
brand way before nostalgia drew everyone back in. And where are the
reissues of original Joes EXACTLY as they were back when they were
originally released. I'd like to have a newly carded Cobra Commander
and Destro Hasbro! What about some M.A.S.K. reissues? Why are you
treating *only* Transformers fans with accurate almost identical
reissues?
Add to that the fact I had been planning on eventually handing down my
collection as a special part of my childhood and a collectible for them
to have as an investment. I had no idea that reissues would ever
happen. Sure there were rumblings of it, but no proof. Just goes to
show you. Anything CAN happen in the wacky world of retail.
Reissues also almost seem catered to the impatient "gotta have it now"
people. Whatever happened to "if you can't afford it, don't buy it!"?
I mean, there are tons of stuff I'd LIKE to have, but if I can't afford
to have it, I learn to live without it. Do I ask Chevy to reissue an
original 1957 with original motor, moldings, and all the trimmings so
it's identical to the original? (I bet that would make a lot of vintage
car collectors real happy. ;) No, I learn to live without. In my
opinion, it's just encouraging an expectancy that just because we want
something in life, we have every right to have it without paying our due
to get it.
In a nutshell, that's my problem with reissues.
Zac Bond
> > Zac, do you remember how much a mint loose Tracks was selling for
> around '99? I really think a database of past values would be an
> interesting thing to have around.
It might be interesting. I am unconcerned because I don't buy the
toys.
> Actually, I thought that fans wanted *all* the Transformers.
Whether or
> not a reissue is available, the original is still out there. It
I suspect all prices might drop in anticipation of possible reissues.
The toys that nobody wants were probably not selling very well in the
first place.
I figure there are three types of people who buy old Transformers:
-People who want a representation of a favorite character
-People, like me, who like transforming robots as a concept and like
well-designed toys
-People who collect because of the challenge in locating rare toys
Obviously there's plenty of overlap, but the reissues practically
remove the first two groups from the collectable market entirely.
> Differences in the toys aside, there's still the issue of the
original
> boxes. Sure some people just care about the toy, but I would think
> quite a few hardcore Transformers fans would still want the original
I see basically one huge reason the general collectors would want the
box--a Transformer sealed in its box will surely be in better
condition than a loose toy. But as soon as it's purchased the box
will likely be opened and maybe thrown away (save artwork and specs).
At least, that's what I would do: The value of the purchase is in the
toy, so keeping in its box is equivalent to giving up the money for
nothing.
I suspect the market for just boxes (without the toy) is pretty tiny,
although there are plenty of hardcore people who want to have a
basement full of unopened toys for some reason.
> box, as it's quite different from these reissue clones' boxes.
Maybe I
> should chock it up to my own blindness, but I remember a time when
the
> boxes were one of the big selling considerations of buying
Transformers.
That seems exceedingly strange to me. The artwork is available in
various spots online in high-res scans, if you want to look at the
pictures. That being said, I am not a collector of G1 toys, with a
few exceptions, because I think they were pretty crappy as toys. So I
don't know what other people value.
-Zac
Ka Faraq Gatri
Here we agree completely! The classic battle scenes were so much
nicer than what we're getting on the reissue boxes. And it's a crime
that Hasbro is replacing the classic character art with Dreamwave
pictures.
> As for the flap, well, that's where the "fun"
>comes in. Searching for that perfect box without such "bends, tears,
>rips, etc." It's a hunt I grant you, but what collectors aren't by
>nature also hunters? Otherwise, there would be no "great toy finds
>today" or such posts.
"Remind me to discuss your idea of fun sometime!" :-) But
seriously, to each his own. There's no wrong way to collect, after
all.
>>
>> Basically, what I'm saying here is that your preferences as a
>> collector aren't necessarily what others value. There are as many ways
>> to collect toys are there are collectors, and there's no such thing as
>> a wrong way to collect. If the prices are dropping, wouldn't that be a
>> good thing, since now you can buy the originals you like for less? I
>> really don't understand why you have such a problem with the reissues,
>> and with the current market for TFs.
>
>For an answer, see my other posts. It's not that I feel bad that others
>are getting good deals. Yay for them! This centers more on the idea
>that it's not an even playing field. Where were the reissues when
>prices were so ungodly high in the first place? Lots of people spent
>lots of money to find the originals in perfect shape, and it's sort of
>an insult as a longtime fan to find that the new fans or those returning
>to the hobby get more of a "free ride" that those who stayed with the
>brand way before nostalgia drew everyone back in.
I don't really see it that way, despite being "burned" by several
occasions where Hasbro has brought stuff over that I already bought
for a lot more. Sure, I could have saved $15 if I had waited for RiD
Prime to come out instead of getting Fire Convoy (as well as 2/3 of
Car Robots, really), but I got to play with it for a full year before
RiD arrived. I ordered Lioconvoy and Galvatron from BWII, then several
months later Hasbro offered them on their now-defunct collector's
site. I also bought Hot Rod and Ultra Magnus years ago, for more than
the reissue went for. I just think of it as others getting to enjoy
cool stuff I already have. Others getting "a free ride" as you put it
honestly doesn't bother me. Why should others be denied the chance to
have a great toy just because I chose to spend a large sum of money on
an earlier release? I'm benefitting from other stuff Hasbro does, like
the reissues of figures I don't have, Target Magmatron, and the few
HoC figures to show up in my area, so IMO it balances out.
And how is it not a level playing field? Prior to the release of
the reissues, only those with the biggest wallets could afford the
toys. Now anyone who can get together $35 can bring home
Thundercracker or Skywarp or Prowl. Sounds fair to me.
> And where are the
>reissues of original Joes EXACTLY as they were back when they were
>originally released. I'd like to have a newly carded Cobra Commander
>and Destro Hasbro! What about some M.A.S.K. reissues? Why are you
>treating *only* Transformers fans with accurate almost identical
>reissues?
There _have_ been reissues of other toylines. There were GIJoe:ARAH
figures reissued a couple years back, prior to the new line we're
seeing now. Some of the 12 in Joe sets are at least meant to be
reminiscent of classic ones, if not actual reissues. I think My Little
Pony is also back on the shelves, though I can't say if they're
original designs or new - I'd have to ask my cousin Michelle. Mattel
reissued classic He-Man figures prior to the new line.
>
>Add to that the fact I had been planning on eventually handing down my
>collection as a special part of my childhood and a collectible for them
>to have as an investment. I had no idea that reissues would ever
>happen. Sure there were rumblings of it, but no proof. Just goes to
>show you. Anything CAN happen in the wacky world of retail.
Yup. Also shows that collecting toys soley as an investment isn't a
good idea. If the collection is worth something down the line, great,
but that's not why I get them. And neither do you from the look of it,
at least not as the main reason.
>
>Reissues also almost seem catered to the impatient "gotta have it now"
>people. Whatever happened to "if you can't afford it, don't buy it!"?
>I mean, there are tons of stuff I'd LIKE to have, but if I can't afford
>to have it, I learn to live without it. Do I ask Chevy to reissue an
>original 1957 with original motor, moldings, and all the trimmings so
>it's identical to the original? (I bet that would make a lot of vintage
>car collectors real happy. ;) No, I learn to live without. In my
>opinion, it's just encouraging an expectancy that just because we want
>something in life, we have every right to have it without paying our due
>to get it.
What do we have to do then? What is the due to be able to enjoy
classic toys? It's not just returning fans that buy the reissues, you
know! A lot of the long-time "hardcore" fans do as well. We've been
waiting for these things for years, and our patience has finally paid
off. We've done without or paid the high prices all this time, and now
we're getting the second chance at the toys from our childhoods we've
always wanted. It all seems to come back to the fact that you paid the
high prices for the figures, and now those same figures are available
again for less. Maybe it isn't fair that you (and I) paid that high
price, but it was our decision to do so! Noone forced us.
>In a nutshell, that's my problem with reissues.
"If I had to pay the high prices, everyone should have to." Right,
got it.
Denyer
> Actually, I thought that fans wanted *all* the Transformers.
You must be bloody joking. About 90% of everything out there is, in my
not so humble opinion, crap. Which is to say I collect early moulds
(most of which were available in pre-TF lines) and anything which
particularly takes my fancy.
I've never taken a break from collecting, know a fair bit about the
'G1' comics and show and consider myself a fan of Transformers rather
than toys.
If you think I'm going to buy complete toss in order to keep scalpers
happy, you've got another thing coming...
Denyer,
www.tfarchive.com/visions
Denyer
>prices were so ungodly high in the first place? Lots of people spent
>lots of money to find the originals in perfect shape, and it's sort
of
>an insult as a longtime fan to find that the new fans or those
returning
>to the hobby get more of a "free ride" that those who stayed with the
>brand way before nostalgia drew everyone back in.
I'm not sure whether you're more ignorant of sale economics, bitter
because you overspent or just another elitist git trying to establish
a hierarchy of 'fans'...
Hasbro is a toy company. It sees a niche, and it attempts to fill
that. It had no reason to reissue toys it had no idea would sell in
sustainable quantities. High octane sales between collectors *were*
that reason. The company exists to turn a profit, not pander to a
small percentage of people who revere a brand.
You're a 'longtime fan'... big deal. So am I, and I have no problem
with items being republished, remastered or reissued. Particularly
because it annoys people who collect more for monetary value or
scarcity than giant sentient robots being a cool idea with a
particularly interesting backstory.
>it's just encouraging an expectancy that just because we want
>something in life, we have every right to have it without paying our
due
>to get it.
Translation: "I'm bitter because I stumped up an ungodly sum for a
piece of plastic I only like for rarity value."
Denyer,
www.tfarchive.com
Jim
Denyer <denye...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3d99193a.03100...@posting.google.com...
I knew someone would eventually speak up who would misunderstand my
intent. Go ahead. Get it out of your system, but if you think it's
going to bother me, you'll be waiting a long time. Granted my opinions
might not be the most popular around here but I'm not trying to belittle
others or judge in getting my point across as you quite plainly are.
I know quite well how companies run thank you. And I know that G1
reissues were wanted for YEARS and the market WAS there. For some
reason or another Hasbro chose to ignore this market (perhaps out of
respect for the originals?). But for some reason, things changed. And
if you don't have a problem with reissues coming out, good for you. I
personally do, as I'm sure others who just don't want to be ridiculed in
public. And if you had bothered to read my entire post rather than
coming to judgment so quickly, you'd realize I'm a HUGE fan. Enough to
have paid the money for those old toys. Did I have to? Of course not.
Am I a little bitter that I felt the need to? Yes, a little. Still
doesn't change my original points, which I believe are valid. Will my
ranting ever really change things? Probably not. And I won't make a
habit of bringing down Transformers as a brand just because I don't
approve of the reissues. Nor will I try to get others to boycott Hasbro
or tell others not to buy the reissues. They exist. Fine. My problem
is that they exist in the first place and they're making others not
appreciate the originals as much, but since they do exist...go crazy if
you want them.
I think it all comes down to respect for letting a toyline have it's
place in history and leaving it at that. Corporate greed, however, has
spoken.
Now if you want to continue to debate the point in a civilized manner,
fine. I'm always up for a good debate. But I'm not going to bother if
you're just going to mudsling.
Jim
category as the G1 reissues. The Car Robots were out for only a year
and there were a LOT of warning signals that Hasbro would bring them
over from practically the get go. G1 toys came out nearly 20 years ago!
As for the last point, go back one of my earlier posts. Anyone can
"save up" it just might take longer for some than others. Life is
seldom if ever fair.
>
> > And where are the
> >reissues of original Joes EXACTLY as they were back when they were
> >originally released. I'd like to have a newly carded Cobra Commander
> >and Destro Hasbro! What about some M.A.S.K. reissues? Why are you
> >treating *only* Transformers fans with accurate almost identical
> >reissues?
>
>
> There _have_ been reissues of other toylines. There were GIJoe:ARAH
> figures reissued a couple years back, prior to the new line we're
> seeing now. Some of the 12 in Joe sets are at least meant to be
> reminiscent of classic ones, if not actual reissues. I think My Little
> Pony is also back on the shelves, though I can't say if they're
> original designs or new - I'd have to ask my cousin Michelle. Mattel
> reissued classic He-Man figures prior to the new line.
>
company. Joe did have reissues, true, but they weren't exactly like the
originals. They weren't even close. Different paint jobs, different
cards. More like a retool or repaint than a reissue. I'm talking
original artwork, original Joe logo, the works. The Transformers
reissues boxes aren't EXACTLY like the originals, but they're closer
than the Joes ever were! So IF Hasbro is going ahead with the reissues
and IF an even playing field is the aim, why not accurate Joe reissues
as well?
> >
> >Add to that the fact I had been planning on eventually handing down
my
> >collection as a special part of my childhood and a collectible for
them
> >to have as an investment. I had no idea that reissues would ever
> >happen. Sure there were rumblings of it, but no proof. Just goes to
> >show you. Anything CAN happen in the wacky world of retail.
>
>
>
> Yup. Also shows that collecting toys soley as an investment isn't a
> good idea. If the collection is worth something down the line, great,
> but that's not why I get them. And neither do you from the look of it,
> at least not as the main reason.
>
>
*never* a possibility. Sure no one forced us, but they sure made it
look like it was necessary!
> >In a nutshell, that's my problem with reissues.
>
> "If I had to pay the high prices, everyone should have to." Right,
> got it.
>
> Among other reasons, yes. But if you'll reread my comments, it goes
much deeper than that. That's the problem with nutshells. They don't
leave much room to move. ;)
ShingoEX
Regardless, reissues are just that - reissues. I love the fact that
I'm able to get replicas of toys I used to have at an affordable
price. Sure, I don't have the braggin rights for owning the G1
originals, nor can I sell them at that price point, but it's great to
be able to relive the nostalgia wthout breaking the bank.
The point is the fact that reissues are "replicas", as opposed to the
original toys. They aren't the 1984+ toys, and thus, will never be as
valuable as the originals. Collectors and dealers alike realize this,
and among the fans, the originals are far more highly regarded to than
the reissues. Otherwise, I'd be able to pick up a mint condition 1984
Optimus Prime for about $40...
I'd LOVE to nab the originals, but it's simply out of my budget, so
nabbing replicas is the next best thing. I see the reissues as
different from the originals, much as I see a difference between RiD
Ruination and G1 Bruticus...
As for having respect and letting a toyline have its place in history,
the reissues will do nothing to change that. If anything, they'll make
more people aware of the history of Transformers...
After all, the history of Transformers is what brought about the
reissues in the first place..
Often-Wrong Zobovor
>The point is the fact that reissues are "replicas", as opposed to the
>original toys. They aren't the 1984+ toys, and thus, will never be as
>valuable as the originals.
Actually, the reissues serve to devalue the originals, at least on the short
term. I've made it a point to check the prices for the vintage G1 pieces on
eBay, and in the period during which a given reissue has had time to make its
way through the primary marketplace, its corresponding G1 counterpart won't
sell for any higher than the price of the reissue.
As soon as Rodimus Major came out, people were posting to this newsgroup,
trying to unload their vintage, good-condition Hot Rod toys for twenty bucks.
This is a price that would have been absurdly cheap, say, three years ago. As
it stands, nobody took a nibble.
The day after I got my Thundercracker reissue, I went hunting online to see if
I could find myself a vintage piece for a possible kitbash project. An auction
for a complete unit closed at something like twenty-seven dollars. Again, that
should have been impossible. (It was also more than I felt like paying at the
time, so I didn't bother to bid on that one.)
I predict what's going to happen eventually is that once the reissues are no
longer being produced, the prices for the G1 pieces will gradually work their
way up. I'm sure a lot of the people (myself included) who bought the G2
versions of Jazz and Starscream would have preferred the G1 versions, but
didn't have much of an alternative. The G2 toys don't appear to have
permanently devalued any of their G1 counterparts, and I expect the same will
hold true with the reissues.
The only prices I don't ever expect to see fully recover are the prices that
the MISB G1 toys once commanded. One of the reasons people bought sealed G1
toy packages was so they could be the very first person to transform the toys
and apply the stickers. Now that you can do that with a reissue for thirty
bucks, there's no reason whatsoever to pay more than that for a sealed G1
specimen. (Yeah, I know that some people collect MISB toys without any
intention of ever opening them. As this point, though, you may as well crack
'em open and play with 'em, since brand-new,
never-before-touched-by-human-hands, G1-era toys just aren't as rare as they
used to be. I have little sympathy for collectors who regard Transformers
collecting as little more than a financial investment.)
--
Zobovor
"Reluctantly, Trillian swallowed. It was either that or spit it out, and it
did in fact taste pretty good."--Mostly Harmless
ZMFTS: http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html
To e-mail me, chop that Minicon in half.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> [snip]
I don't mean to look like I'm singling you out in particular, but I want
to remind people here that when responding to a long post, you should snip
out sections which are not immediately relevant to what you plan to say.
In your post, Jim, the first thing written by you can in at around the
155th line. Remember, two seconds spent deleting stuff in your post saves
hundreds of people two seconds each of scrolling, as well as reducing your
article's bandwidth.
--Steve-o
--
Steve Stonebraker | http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/
sst...@yahoo.com | Transformers, astrophysics, comics, games, cartoons.
Jim
Often-Wrong Zobovor <zob...@aol.comettor> wrote in message
news:20031006005256...@mb-m05.aol.com...
I'm not sure this will be the case. Remember the G2 toys weren't
*exact* duplicates, like the reissues claim to be. Granted, they're
still not exact either, but they're a heck of a lot closer than the
comparatively garish colors of the G2 toys. In fact, the G2 toys were
different enough you could make a case that they were different robots
altogether. There's no mistaking what the reissues claim to be: clones
of the originals. Although, I'd like to believe you're right.
>
> The only prices I don't ever expect to see fully recover are the
prices that
> the MISB G1 toys once commanded. One of the reasons people bought
sealed G1
> toy packages was so they could be the very first person to transform
the toys
> and apply the stickers. Now that you can do that with a reissue for
thirty
> bucks, there's no reason whatsoever to pay more than that for a sealed
G1
> specimen. (Yeah, I know that some people collect MISB toys without
any
> intention of ever opening them. As this point, though, you may as
well crack
> 'em open and play with 'em, since brand-new,
> never-before-touched-by-human-hands, G1-era toys just aren't as rare
as they
> used to be. I have little sympathy for collectors who regard
Transformers
> collecting as little more than a financial investment.)
>
> You mean "they aren't as desired as they used to be" don't you? The
originals are still rare, but the demand is lower. Btw, I don't think
you're singling me out in particular here, but please remember financial
investment isn't the only or even the main reason why I collect. It's
just a factor along with the rest, a perk. I only say this so that my
intent isn't overlooked or even looked at wrongly. I still like to mess
around with the little buggers on occasion too! ;-)
Jim
Steve-o Stonebraker <sst...@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote in
message news:slrnbo1u4q....@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu...
Oops! Thanks for pointing that out, Steve-o. I totally forget to snip
my posts when I get going! I'll remember in the future though. :-)
Zac Bond
> begin to match that! As for the flap, well, that's where the "fun"
> comes in. Searching for that perfect box without such "bends,
tears,
> rips, etc."
I am unconcerned about the boxes, myself. I like boxed toys only
because the act of opening them is pleasurable.
> are getting good deals. Yay for them! This centers more on the
idea
> that it's not an even playing field. Where were the reissues when
You complain that having cheaper reissues is not an "even playing
field," and yet in the next post you comment that some people being
unable to afford the expensive toys is "unfair and life is not always
fair" and that's OK. That is a double standard.
> prices were so ungodly high in the first place? Lots of people
spent
> lots of money to find the originals in perfect shape, and it's sort
of
> an insult as a longtime fan to find that the new fans or those
returning
> to the hobby get more of a "free ride" that those who stayed with
the
> brand way before nostalgia drew everyone back in.
Why does this insult you so? Suppose you buy a G1 trasnformer MISB
for $100. Then the next day, someone wins an auction by sheer luck on
an identical item for $80. What about for $50? At what point does it
cease to be "luck" and begin to be an insult? People who become
interested in Transformers now and are able to buy the reissues
instead of Ebay items are merely lucky.
> And where are the
> reissues of original Joes EXACTLY as they were back when they were
> originally released. I'd like to have a newly carded Cobra
Commander
> and Destro Hasbro! What about some M.A.S.K. reissues? Why are you
> treating *only* Transformers fans with accurate almost identical
> reissues?
Probably because the marketing heads at Hasbro believe that only
Transformers will sell at a high enough quantity and at a high enough
price point to justify the effort in creating them. There may also be
more physical reasons--broken molds, etc. They may be wrong and may
have made a mistake by not re-releasing other lines as they have
Transformers, but the decision is rooted in economics, not in being
nice to the fans.
> Add to that the fact I had been planning on eventually handing down
my
> collection as a special part of my childhood and a collectible for
them
> to have as an investment.
Why must it have economic value to be an heirloom? Doesn't the fact
that you poured time and effort into this hobby make it valuable to
your children regardless of its economic value? An heirloom serves
primarily as a reminder of the person who gave it, not as an
"investment."
As far as investments are concerned, collectibles are very poor
choices because they can vary wildly for many reasons. Stick to
traditional long-term performers.
> Reissues also almost seem catered to the impatient "gotta have it
now"
> people. Whatever happened to "if you can't afford it, don't buy
it!"?
It is the fact that people can afford it that people will buy the
reissues, and it is THAT fact that prompts Hasbro to release them.
This is the beauty of a free-market economy. Hasbro has moved to fill
a niche that exists, creating a win-win situation for buyer and
seller.
> to have it, I learn to live without it. Do I ask Chevy to reissue
an
> original 1957 with original motor, moldings, and all the trimmings
so
> it's identical to the original?
I don't see how it would be morally improper to ask for one. Naive,
but not immoral.
> opinion, it's just encouraging an expectancy that just because we
want
> something in life, we have every right to have it without paying our
due
> to get it.
I don't quite understand what makes you the authority on what
someone's "due" is. The seller defines what is due, and he buyer pays
it, plus applicable sales tax, in order to get it.
-Zac
Denyer
> coming to judgment so quickly, you'd realize I'm a HUGE fan.
Never said you weren't... just viewing the connection between length
of term, depth and willingness to part cash for a particular vintage
of plastic as false and prejudicial.
> Enough to
> have paid the money for those old toys.
No, you see, *that* doesn't make you a fan of Transformers. It makes
you a collector of (a subset of) toys. Transformers is many things;
the 'G1' toyline is a very small part of that.
> My problem
> is that they exist in the first place and they're making others not
> appreciate the originals as much,
How so? Why does someone appreciate a mould less if they can buy it
rather than slavering over an obscenely priced auction? How is someone
a lesser long-term fan if they fail to be bothered about many of these
mass-produced goods in the first place?
> but since they do exist...go crazy if
> you want them.
I'll pick some of them up, maybe. I won't be throwing out my battered
originals, though, nor will I be busting a gut to add minty-boxed 1984
versions to my collection. Those were toys I bought then, the reissues
are what I'd buy now... in the same retail fashion. Actually, I'd
probably pay more buying retail now, since I started collecting
figures in addition to the books, comics and videos only later, when
there was a large number of good-condition TFs coming into the
second-hand market for the first time.
I value TFs on two levels. One, I appreciate the quality of
engineering inherent to a mould. What year production line it came off
is immaterial. Two, I appreciate a few of the links formed with
characters in media I enjoy. I don't actually see what other value can
be derived, much as I don't see why a first-edition book is worthwhile
if it isn't aesthetically pleasing in and of itself, and if it isn't a
good story. Something being 'first', ie, being one of many thousands
produced that year which has survived through luck and/or care...
what's the attraction?
Finally, you could feed a starving village for a considerable time on
just what some people are prepared to fork out for a Japanese Brave
Max. That's obscene, and why I'll never pay through the nose for a toy
regardless of earning power or windfalls. And why I'll never buy MISB
unless it's *really* cheap, because the first thing I'm going to do is
open and transform. Transforming play value being an essential part of
a toyline called Transformers, to my mind.
> I think it all comes down to respect for letting a toyline have it's
> place in history and leaving it at that. Corporate greed, however, has
> spoken.
Yeah, and whilst we're at it, let's cease production of all
clone-u-like dolls, action men, guns, model vehicles and similar.
They've had their place in history, after all... Barbie in
particular...
Transformers have never been out of production, particularly in Japan.
They aren't an historical relic; they keep being released. Next you're
going to tell me that 'G1' is the *true* Transformers. 'G1' didn't
even exist as a brand until Takara used it recently and Dreamwave
followed suit.
If you're dedicated to 'what came first', why aren't you collecting
solely the robot toy lines which went on to become Transformers? The
Transformers brand merely added a semi-original tale of civil war
between sentient robots.
Drawing cut-off points for 'originality' will always be artificial.
> Now if you want to continue to debate the point in a civilized manner,
> fine. I'm always up for a good debate. But I'm not going to bother if
> you're just going to mudsling.
Far from mudslinging, I'm more interested in seeing debunked people
who view their narrow wedge of interest as constituting what is of
meaning and value in this fandom.
Really, what's so special about something being first, after the fact
and the bright flame of creativity?
Denyer,
www.tfarchive.com
Onslaught Six
> And where are the
> reissues of original Joes EXACTLY as they were back when they were
> originally released. I'd like to have a newly carded Cobra Commander
> and Destro Hasbro! What about some M.A.S.K. reissues? Why are you
> treating *only* Transformers fans with accurate almost identical
> reissues?
Well, for one thing, most of the original Joe molds were probably
permanently altered to have swively biceps. Also, Cobra Commander's
original mold was lost somewhere--HasKen said this when asked why the
1997 Cobra Commander figure (The one that came with Baroness and
Destro) had the original C.C.'s box art but was a hooded figure, and
they said because they lost the mold.
And besides, a lot of the early 90s figures have much better
representations of the characters, just in bad colors. And I just love
the new Zartan and Snake Eyes.
Onslaught Six
> One last small thing is there's a lot of kitbashers now who will buy two
> broken TFs and make them into one good-as-new figure. It's not great for
> resale value, but it got them what they wanted - a good-looking display
> piece that still functions.
Mmhm. *grumbles about lack of Soundwave parts in abundance.*
Onslaught Six
> Not counting reissues, what's the most you've paid for a Transformer
> this year? Now, how much did you pay for a Transformer in, say 1999 or
> 2000 (right before reissues came out)?
Not counting Unicron, $30 for Tidal Wave. I probably didn't pay more
than $10 at a time for TFs around 99/00, but I was a broke little kid
then.
> And in particular, what were some of the market prices for loose
> Transformers around '99-2000? What was the price of a loose Tracks? I
> seem to remember he was just under $100 wasn't he?
Dunno.
> Either people are losing interest in the Transformers again, or
> something, because I've noticed a significant drop in some prices of
> late on ebay. Are people just not buying anything right now, or are
> Transformers beginning to lose their punch again? What i can't
> understand is why a rare toy suddenly becomes less desirable just
> because a copy becomes available? It's not the same toy! It might be
> close, but there are differences.
Actually, Hot Rod's the same toy. He's got two or three microscopic
details (his fists have been filled in from TM Hot Rod, holes in the
pegs for his guns, and he's got pegs and holes in his arms instead of
metal rods, meaning his arms can pop off (a kid-safe feature I
actually like.), but to the untrained one this isn't even there. In
fact, the reissues aren't trying to appeal to the fans, I
think--they're trying to appeal to that mid-20s "Hey! Transformers! I
remember them!" crowd. The crowd that can actually afford to shell out
$35 for a Thundercracker.
Jason
spent on something that has virtually no 2nd hand value. We're all pretty
sure reissues aren't going to cost 5 bucks in a year, so buying some extra
ones for display is a win win. You put money into "savings" and get a neat
display piece. :-)
Jason
Jim
Onslaught Six <mew00...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:150f8eab.03100...@posting.google.com...
Swivel biceps wouldn't be that big of a deal. Remember, I'm talking "as
close as possible." Artwork and basic card design would be the main
draw, as well as that iconic logo.
Soundwave's mold was "lost" or at least damaged, and Takara managed to
reissue him. Of course, Takara doesn't own Joe, and maybe that's the
whole problem. Hasbro does seem more lazy or tight pocketed about
spending extra money just to renew a mold.
Ok, granted, some of the 90's figures were pretty good, but they weren't
the *originals* I mean you can make a good case that lots of
Transformers have been bettered over time. The new Optimus Masterpiece
is simply AMAZING! But they're still not the originals that people so
love if for no other reason for nostalgia reasons.
Gabi T.M. D'Galvatron
> And I know that G1
> reissues were wanted for YEARS and the market WAS there. For some
> reason or another Hasbro chose to ignore this market (perhaps out of
> respect for the originals?).
I think that re-makeing the G1 toys was a non-issue for Hasbro untill
"recently" Takara providedd bouth the beans the means and the way for
that to happen .
Allthough my pet theoty is that if all the re-issueing by Takara woud
not have happened , Hasbro might have re-issued G1 OP for the 20th
anniversary ... ;
(Maybe they woud have called that "Masterpice Prime ...." , I dunno
... . :-) )
> And
> if you don't have a problem with reissues coming out, good for you. I
> personally do, as I'm sure others who just don't want to be ridiculed in
> public.
I've always found that when someone wants to say something here on ATT
, they have little reservations about it . ;-)
So , as to being ridiculed , don't you worry about that (!) , and try
not to take it too hard if something sounds offensive to you .
> And if you had bothered to read my entire post rather than
> coming to judgment so quickly, you'd realize I'm a HUGE fan. Enough to
> have paid the money for those old toys. Did I have to? Of course not.
> Am I a little bitter that I felt the need to? Yes, a little.
But I think that bitterness shoud be a fleeting feeling at best .
Sure , I have it too , but in many chases I also see a positive side
to the re-issues , for myself as well as for other Transfans .
Here are IMO a few of the great things about the re-issues :
- Fans (no matter if new or old , serious or not) are able to buy toys
that were becomeing quite unafordable to many .
- Older fans who are in the proccess of haveing familys of their own
will be able to introduce the G1 toys to their kids without worrying
that the kids will mangle Daddys/Mommys emmotionally _precious_ (and
expensive) G1 $150 Prowl .
- While it may seem to you that it's a bad thing that the Big Bad
Hasbro Money Makeing Machine is makeing some profit on the re-issues
-- I think that it was no less horrible that scalpers were able to
make a fortune on the back of the weak supply and big demand thread .
You (and even I) may be a little bitter about haveing payed a great
deal of money for certin toys . Did you stop to wonder why we had to
do that in the first place ? I mean there are plenty of great old toy
lines out there which do not command the "value" that the G1 toys did
before the re-issues started .
Now why is that ?
- I also think that due to the re-issues , wich were started by Takara
, not Hasbro , we the G1 fans actually got several items of great
valiue , as well as some items we never thought that woud see the
light of day .
Ghost Starscream , Sunstorm , the super great "Anime Starscream" the
black repaints of certin toys are all things that are the byproducts
of the re-issues . Woud you like it it they had not existed at all ?
- I'll also throw in a couple of things from a personal perspective :
G1 Tracks was my first TF , and the only one that I've totally
demolished .
Now , as a promise to myself , I've told myself that whenever I'll
stop collecting G1 , my last toy will be a MISB G1 Tracks ... , sorta
a full circle .
Sure , it woud have taken a month or three to scrape that ammount
togather , but oh hell .
Anyway , I still have a number of toys to pick up before I can make
good on that promise , but my point is that untill my collection woud
have been "complite" , I did not expect to own a G1 Tracks .
Enter the Takara re-issues ... -- and Me Grimlock Happy Tracks-owning
Transfan ! :-)
Sure , I will pick up a MISB original G1 Tracks eventually when my G1
collecting days will end , but in the mean time I am quite pleased
that I have a Tracks to fiddle with . (even if his ches door does not
open fully)
My other fave story is with my G1 Megatron .
I got lucky in '99 , and managed to pick one up MISB for much less
than it's then "current" price rate .
But still , even as I was super cearfull with it (I've transformed it
like 30+ times since then) , I've found that it became loose quite
quickly , and it seemed to do me a favor when it was willing to point
it's fusion cannon foward in robot mode for any extended period of
time .
Now even though I'm not much of a fan of this toy , I decided that the
Takara re-issue of Megs w/morning star was something "special" (plus
it coud fire bullets) , so I decided to pick it up .
Now imagine my utter astonishment when Ive recived this new Megatron ,
who's joints were *much thighter* than my original version -- so tight
in fact that I was and still am able to transfom it repetedly , and
(for a change) I'm able
to share it with my friends without cringing .
An added "bonus" if you will is this :
The black accessorys of my reissue Megs are total crap .
Waves and waves of ugly visual "waves in the plastic" -- somethings
that that is fun to replace with my "perfect black plastic" from my
older totally EVIL tin tyrant .
>My problem
> is that they exist in the first place and they're making others not
> appreciate the originals as much,
I doubt that that is true , unless you're somehow worryed that
"pepole" do not appreciate *your* originals , in wich case there's
little that I can do I'm afraid .
If pepole have appreciated your collection before , then they will do
so today as well . (I hope)
And if you were not talking about yourself there , the please explain
what you've meant by pepole not appreciating the originals as much .
> I think it all comes down to respect for letting a toyline have it's
> place in history and leaving it at that. Corporate greed, however, has
> spoken.
Then you shoud be angry with Takara , and not Hasbro , as they started
with the re-issues , and they did it for over a year and a half before
Hasbro decided that it might just work for them as well .
So was it corporate greed ? Maybe .
Or maybe it was a supply and demand issue .
Or ... , maybe it was a combination between the regular demand (wich
existed previously) -- something wich got bolstered by newfound demand
for the toys when TF:TM and the G1 cartoon was relised in Japan on
Laserdiscs and DVD -- as at first (and still) , the Takara re-isses
have been specifically aimed at the Japanise maket .
But hey , I have another question for you :
I'm curious though -- how do you feel about G1 toys that have been
used in other TF toy lines ?
Bruticus , Fort Max ?
Are they "cheap imitations" as well ?
-Gabi.
John
> Sure , I will pick up a MISB original G1 Tracks eventually when my G1
> collecting days will end , but in the mean time I am quite pleased
> that I have a Tracks to fiddle with . (even if his ches door does not
> open fully)
Ok, not owning the reissue (and this would be one of the only reasons
for wanting to own it--tighter joints), I've got to ask what you mean
about the door. Do the doors on reissue Tracks stick?
What I meant is that people aren't appreciating that they sometimes have
to save up for something they really want, rather than having it handed
to them on a silver $30 MiB platter. I'm sure people will still
appreciate that I have the originals, but it won't be like a "Whoah! I
remember those! Those were so cool! Man, you're so lucky to have
those." I think every collector likes the feeling that they own
something special. Reissues take away from that feeling, because even
though yours was "first" it's not the "only." And to make it even
worse, yours that you slaved over and worked hard to be able to buy is
devalued because of the existence of this "imposter"
> > I think it all comes down to respect for letting a toyline have it's
> > place in history and leaving it at that. Corporate greed, however,
has
> > spoken.
>
> Then you shoud be angry with Takara , and not Hasbro , as they started
> with the re-issues , and they did it for over a year and a half before
> Hasbro decided that it might just work for them as well .
True, but Takara had a reason. They were very nearly put out of
business. Hasbro had no such problem. They just saw a chance to make
more money. Which I'll grant is the purpose of a business. But
Takara's was out of necessity and desperation. Hasbro's was purely
greed.
>
> So was it corporate greed ? Maybe .
> Or maybe it was a supply and demand issue .
> Or ... , maybe it was a combination between the regular demand (wich
> existed previously) -- something wich got bolstered by newfound demand
> for the toys when TF:TM and the G1 cartoon was relised in Japan on
> Laserdiscs and DVD -- as at first (and still) , the Takara re-isses
> have been specifically aimed at the Japanise maket .
>
>
> But hey , I have another question for you :
> I'm curious though -- how do you feel about G1 toys that have been
> used in other TF toy lines ?
> Bruticus , Fort Max ?
>
> Are they "cheap imitations" as well ?
>
> -Gabi.
Nah. They're not trying to be the original. They're repaints/retools.
I seem them about as much a threat as G2 was to G1 or Universe is to BW.
I wouldn't even call the reissues necessarily a 'cheap imitation' and if
I did I shouldn't have. In fact, they're high quality, which just makes
them even MORE like the original and therefore a source of devaluation
of the originals. Now a knockoff, that's a cheap imitation.
One thing I should say about knockoffs also, is that I feel they in a
way insult the original toy because they are so cheaply made.
Transformers have for the most part been quality toys, and a knockoff
trying to be a Transformer I feel sort of takes their good name and
throws it in the mud. To actually try to make a knockoff REPLACE an
original Transformer is just beyond me. Which again, the reissues are
not knockoffs. They're quality, and therefore, TRY to be a real
Transformer, a REPLACEMENT for the original, which I just don't feel is
right either, but for different reasons I've stated before.
Jim
John <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:blslat$fmtcc$1...@ID-198146.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > Sure , I will pick up a MISB original G1 Tracks eventually when my
G1
> > collecting days will end , but in the mean time I am quite pleased
> > that I have a Tracks to fiddle with . (even if his ches door does
not
> > open fully)
>
> Ok, not owning the reissue (and this would be one of the only reasons
> for wanting to own it--tighter joints), I've got to ask what you mean
> about the door. Do the doors on reissue Tracks stick?
>
Sorry wrong user name. I see someone's been at the computer.
Denyer
> appreciate that I have the originals, but it won't be like a "Whoah! I
> remember those! Those were so cool! Man, you're so lucky to have
> those."
Ah, right. You're in this for the adoration...
> Reissues take away from that feeling, because even
> though yours was "first" it's not the "only."
...and you don't *want* other fans to have the opportunity to own
things which are very similar. Stop plugging away at both feet with
that machine gun whilst you're ahead. (Note that the rest of this
reply is less sarcastic, if it makes any difference.)
> True, but Takara had a reason. They were very nearly put out of
> business. Hasbro had no such problem. They just saw a chance to make
> more money. Which I'll grant is the purpose of a business. But
> Takara's was out of necessity and desperation. Hasbro's was purely
> greed.
Staying in business at the expense of other toylines and other toy
companies is also a form of selfishness. It's also the way of the
world.
> One thing I should say about knockoffs also, is that I feel they in a
> way insult the original toy because they are so cheaply made.
> Transformers have for the most part been quality toys, and a knockoff
> trying to be a Transformer I feel sort of takes their good name and
> throws it in the mud.
Plastic doesn't actually have feelings. They might in some way
register as an insult to *us*, but the most knockoffs can do is harm
the TF *brand* ...and if that's the case, so do all other transforming
robot toylines which aren't excellent quality, because bootlegs rarely
dare to use the full Hasbro branding.
> Transformer, a REPLACEMENT for the original, which I just don't feel is
> right either, but for different reasons I've stated before.
I think your problem comes down to perception. Nothing can be a
replacement... even the versions of the '84 toys which were reproduced
in '85 aren't *replacements* ...they're substitutes. When a person
buys a reissue or knockoff, they're buying a *substitute* for
something previously released.
To most people, that isn't a problem, and you won't convince most of
them that when and how a toy was made is more important than how it
looks, plays, and what character it represents.
Denyer,
www.tfarchive.com
Often-Wrong Zobovor
>I value TFs on two levels. One, I appreciate the quality of
>engineering inherent to a mould. What year production line it came off
>is immaterial. Two, I appreciate a few of the links formed with
>characters in media I enjoy. I don't actually see what other value can
>be derived, much as I don't see why a first-edition book is worthwhile
>if it isn't aesthetically pleasing in and of itself, and if it isn't a
>good story.
Wow. I really don't have anything to add to this. I just felt that it
deserved to be quoted. :)
Ethan Hammond
> to save up for something they really want, rather than having it handed
> to them on a silver $30 MiB platter. I'm sure people will still
> appreciate that I have the originals, but it won't be like a "Whoah! I
> remember those! Those were so cool! Man, you're so lucky to have
> those." I think every collector likes the feeling that they own
> something special. Reissues take away from that feeling, because even
> though yours was "first" it's not the "only." And to make it even
> worse, yours that you slaved over and worked hard to be able to buy is
> devalued because of the existence of this "imposter"
Welcome to the world of capitalism.
> True, but Takara had a reason. They were very nearly put out of
> business. Hasbro had no such problem. They just saw a chance to make
> more money. Which I'll grant is the purpose of a business. But
> Takara's was out of necessity and desperation. Hasbro's was purely
> greed.
I don't agree with this reasoning. Hasbro did it because there
was a market for the reissues in the US since many US fans
were buying the Takara reissues, but many more did not know
about the Takara reissues, but would see the Hasbro ones.
I guess by your corporate greed logic anytime Hasbro releases
any toy is out of greed. Releasing the G1 reissues in the US
is a favor to the fans. They didn't have to do it and orginally
had no plans to do it.
> Nah. They're not trying to be the original. They're repaints/retools.
> I seem them about as much a threat as G2 was to G1 or Universe is to BW.
> I wouldn't even call the reissues necessarily a 'cheap imitation' and if
> I did I shouldn't have. In fact, they're high quality, which just makes
> them even MORE like the original and therefore a source of devaluation
> of the originals. Now a knockoff, that's a cheap imitation.
Who cares how much the toy is worth anyway? Do you like it less
for some reason if you can't boast about its value or try to sell
it to some fan for an insane amount.
> One thing I should say about knockoffs also, is that I feel they in a
> way insult the original toy because they are so cheaply made.
> Transformers have for the most part been quality toys, and a knockoff
> trying to be a Transformer I feel sort of takes their good name and
> throws it in the mud. To actually try to make a knockoff REPLACE an
> original Transformer is just beyond me. Which again, the reissues are
> not knockoffs. They're quality, and therefore, TRY to be a real
> Transformer, a REPLACEMENT for the original, which I just don't feel is
> right either, but for different reasons I've stated before.
Some knockoffs are well made some are cheaply made it just depends on
what knockoff you get. How many people would be able to get a Raiden
if not for the knockoff. I have one cause I lived in Tokyo for 5 years in
the 80's.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Ethan Hammond
>
> I think your problem comes down to perception. Nothing can be a
> replacement... even the versions of the '84 toys which were reproduced
> in '85 aren't *replacements* ...they're substitutes. When a person
> buys a reissue or knockoff, they're buying a *substitute* for
> something previously released.
> To most people, that isn't a problem, and you won't convince most of
> them that when and how a toy was made is more important than how it
> looks, plays, and what character it represents.
And if you really want to be technical TF's were toys from
other toy lines to begin with. What of the poor Diaclone fans,
who is here to speak for them.
Jim
> > I'm sure people will still
> > appreciate that I have the originals, but it won't be like a "Whoah!
I
> > remember those! Those were so cool! Man, you're so lucky to have
> > those."
>
> Ah, right. You're in this for the adoration...
>
around with them and transform them and make vroom vroom sounds, well
ok, but can you honestly say that you don't get a good feeling when
someone compliments your collection, or that you don't get excited and
feel the need to share your latest buy with others. If people didn't
care about others knowing, there would be a lot less posts of "hey look
what i just got" on the net. And while you're mulling that over...
> > Reissues take away from that feeling, because even
> > though yours was "first" it's not the "only."
>
> ...and you don't *want* other fans to have the opportunity to own
> things which are very similar. Stop plugging away at both feet with
> that machine gun whilst you're ahead. (Note that the rest of this
> reply is less sarcastic, if it makes any difference.)
I'm not shooting myself in the foot here if it's what I truly believe.
You may get others to see your way, and to think I'm off my rocker or a
selfish person. Sure feel free to think what you want. I'll continue
the same. I've explained my position. If you still want to believe I'm
wrong, go ahead, but I think you're just deluding yourself that you're
completely right and that everything I'm saying isn't true.
>
> > True, but Takara had a reason. They were very nearly put out of
> > business. Hasbro had no such problem. They just saw a chance to
make
> > more money. Which I'll grant is the purpose of a business. But
> > Takara's was out of necessity and desperation. Hasbro's was purely
> > greed.
>
> Staying in business at the expense of other toylines and other toy
> companies is also a form of selfishness. It's also the way of the
> world.
I'm not sure I get your point. Takara had to adapt or they wouldn't
have survived. Hasbro was in no such position.
>
> > One thing I should say about knockoffs also, is that I feel they in
a
> > way insult the original toy because they are so cheaply made.
> > Transformers have for the most part been quality toys, and a
knockoff
> > trying to be a Transformer I feel sort of takes their good name and
> > throws it in the mud.
>
> Plastic doesn't actually have feelings. They might in some way
> register as an insult to *us*, but the most knockoffs can do is harm
> the TF *brand* ...and if that's the case, so do all other transforming
> robot toylines which aren't excellent quality, because bootlegs rarely
> dare to use the full Hasbro branding.
I wasn't referring to the plastic and I know it has no feelings. I'm
more referring to others trying to substitute a cheap knockoff for the
real thing. As a toy, I see no problems, and if that's truly what
people are buying it for, well, fine. But to see knockoffs as a part
of a *collection* that's a different thing entirely. It's still beyond
me though why people would even want a cheap knockoff as a substitute.
To me, I'd rather save for a long time to have the REAL thing than pop a
five dollar bill for something that falls apart as soon as I open it! I
guess that's where my tastes differ from others. I take pride in what I
buy. Someone once said "Cheap is often the enemy of good, and price
merely a casualty of war." Or to put it another way, "you get what you
pay for."
>
> > Transformer, a REPLACEMENT for the original, which I just don't feel
is
> > right either, but for different reasons I've stated before.
>
> I think your problem comes down to perception. Nothing can be a
> replacement... even the versions of the '84 toys which were reproduced
> in '85 aren't *replacements* ...they're substitutes. When a person
> buys a reissue or knockoff, they're buying a *substitute* for
> something previously released.
> To most people, that isn't a problem, and you won't convince most of
> them that when and how a toy was made is more important than how it
> looks, plays, and what character it represents.
>
> Denyer,
> www.tfarchive.com
When a company tries to produce a toy as completly faithful to the
original as these reissues are in color, diecast, quality of materials,
etc. they're meant to replace the originals in a collection if you don't
already have them. Otherwise, Hasbro could have saved some money by NOT
making them as well as they have. They could have used plastic rather
than diecast and people would probably still buy them. But they chose
to go with diecast so they would come as close as possible, and
therefore REPLACE the need for originals. Honestly I think you're
getting too wound up in semantics here anyway. But whether they're
replacements or substitutes, the intent is still pretty clear. As for
convincing most people, your argument is based largely on "toy buyers"
and not "collectors" as I do feel the two view it differently. For me,
and for a lot of collectors, the original is *supposed* to be the one
most desired. Think of how many times Amazing Fantasy has been
reprinted, yet the original retains its value. I honestly don't see why
the same isn't being true with the original G1's. Or why your last
paragraph seems to be the case. I'm still trying to understand why.
Ethan Hammond
> reprinted, yet the original retains its value. I honestly don't see why
> the same isn't being true with the original G1's. Or why your last
> paragraph seems to be the case. I'm still trying to understand why.
I think the way the American comic book market works sucks.
I like the way the Japanese manga market is way better. Tanobunkan
collections with 300 pages for 5 bucks are much better than
thousands of dollars for a 22 page story.
Jim
Ethan Hammond <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:T4ugb.167281$0v4.12...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
So you care absolutely nothing at all about value? Would you just give
away your car? Not to help someone out. Not to get yourself out of a
debt. Just decide one day to leave it with the keys in it and walk
away? If you say no, you can't say value means nothing to you.
The problem here is that people are so programmed to certain responses
when talks like this come up, that they automatically assume someone is
only in it "for the money", that they intend to scalp someone out of
their hard earned paycheck on ebay. Actually the exact opposite is true
for me. I planned on holding on to my collection and watching it go up
in value over time and then eventually handing it down to my children.
I see nothing wrong with that and I feel that Hasbro (and to a much
smaller degree Takara) has hurt this plan to a degree. But of course,
people jump to conclusions and immediately assume the worst. My
indignation is much less to do with "oh, I can't get X number of dollars
for it now" than you might think and if you read my posts with that in
mind, I think you'll understand why I'm feeling the way I am.
Jim
about a relic of history. Relics SHOULD appreciate in value. As SHOULD
a 20 year old toy...but instead a reissue poser comes along and suddenly
it loses almost all it's appreciation value. Just doesn't seem right to
me.
Ethan Hammond
> > for some reason if you can't boast about its value or try to sell
> > it to some fan for an insane amount.
>
> So you care absolutely nothing at all about value? Would you just give
> away your car? Not to help someone out. Not to get yourself out of a
> debt. Just decide one day to leave it with the keys in it and walk
> away? If you say no, you can't say value means nothing to you.
What does that have to do with how much a TF toy is worth?
Its apples and oranges. I don't get the toys because of how
much they are worth. I said I don't care what the toy is worth
and I don't. I just want to be able to collect them at reasonable
prices and before 2002 that was impossible and it sucked.
> The problem here is that people are so programmed to certain responses
> when talks like this come up, that they automatically assume someone is
> only in it "for the money", that they intend to scalp someone out of
> their hard earned paycheck on ebay. Actually the exact opposite is true
> for me. I planned on holding on to my collection and watching it go up
> in value over time and then eventually handing it down to my children.
> I see nothing wrong with that and I feel that Hasbro (and to a much
> smaller degree Takara) has hurt this plan to a degree. But of course,
> people jump to conclusions and immediately assume the worst. My
> indignation is much less to do with "oh, I can't get X number of dollars
> for it now" than you might think and if you read my posts with that in
> mind, I think you'll understand why I'm feeling the way I am.
Well you can still give it to your children even with the reissues.
Nothing has changed. Why does it matter what the value of
them is according to some silly price guide? They still mean
something to you, especially if you don't want to get rid of them.
Ethan Hammond
> about a relic of history. Relics SHOULD appreciate in value. As SHOULD
> a 20 year old toy...but instead a reissue poser comes along and suddenly
> it loses almost all it's appreciation value. Just doesn't seem right to
> me.
Although capitalism would be more if Marvel was selling another
version of Amazing Fantasy #15. Reselling an original copy on
the market does no good. And guess what the comic book market
is bigger in Japan and I think the fact that it doesn't have all the
back issue market bs is part of the reason. I remember the comic
book market in the early to mid 90's and everybody was in it
buying lots of copies of every issue. They were doing this not for
the story but because they were speculating that the comics would
become worth more. People got sick of it and the comic book
market has gone to shyt. The reissue TF's are good because they
increase interest among the original G1 fan base. And most people,
myself included do not want to spend hundreds of dollars for
every single TF. But I am not in it for the value, I love TF's and
I am not a completist I mainly collect the characters I like or the
toys that really stand out. I just happen to like a huge amount
of characters. How much a TF is worth down the road dosen't
matter to me. Thats not what you should be in it for and you have
said you are not. If that is the case then the reissues shouldn't
bother you. They don't hurt anything.
Jim
> "Jim" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >
> > > Who cares how much the toy is worth anyway? Do you like it less
> > > for some reason if you can't boast about its value or try to sell
> > > it to some fan for an insane amount.
> >
> > So you care absolutely nothing at all about value? Would you just
give
> > away your car? Not to help someone out. Not to get yourself out of
a
> > debt. Just decide one day to leave it with the keys in it and walk
> > away? If you say no, you can't say value means nothing to you.
>
> What does that have to do with how much a TF toy is worth?
> Its apples and oranges. I don't get the toys because of how
> much they are worth. I said I don't care what the toy is worth
> and I don't. I just want to be able to collect them at reasonable
> prices and before 2002 that was impossible and it sucked.
Nothing is truly apples and oranges if you think about it. If you say
you don't care about value, then you don't care about *any* value, not
just the value of a toy. Hence, my car reference. Maybe not the *best*
example, but you hopefully get the point. As for pre-2002, I'm happy
it no longer sucks for you. I suppose you could say that both camps
can't be happy a the same time and now it's "our" turn to suffer. ;)
It's unfortunate, but there really is no happy medium. While you're now
getting what you want, it comes at the expense of hurting those of us
who paid those exhorbitant prices once upon a time, because it means
most of that money was essentially wasted, seeing as how they're not
going for such prices any more thanks to said reissues.
> True, but the point was to be able to hand down something special.
For them to be able to walk into a Toys R Us and say "Look Dad, the same
one you gave me" takes away from that. Big time.
Ka Faraq Gatri
>The problem here is that people are so programmed to certain responses
>when talks like this come up, that they automatically assume someone is
>only in it "for the money", that they intend to scalp someone out of
>their hard earned paycheck on ebay. Actually the exact opposite is true
>for me. I planned on holding on to my collection and watching it go up
>in value over time and then eventually handing it down to my children.
>I see nothing wrong with that and I feel that Hasbro (and to a much
>smaller degree Takara) has hurt this plan to a degree.
The toys have to have a certain value for them to be worth handing
down to your children? The most valued items my mom has, the ones that
she has given me the most detailed instructions about their
distribution when she dies, aren't the most valuable items she owns.
They're the ones with sentimental value. The stone bible her
grandfather carved but unfortunately never finished. Old photographs.
The pieces of family history that objectively are worthless, but
because of the history they represent, are priceless. Your old,
treasured toys don't have to be able to fetch a lot of money to be
personally valuable. One of the reasons PMOP is my favorite version of
the character is the circumstances in which I got him. He was a gift
from my late grandmother right after I recovered from surgery to fix
an illness that kept me bedridden for 6 months. I rode my bike to the
toy store for the first time in half a year, and came back with Prime.
It's not the best Prime in terms of engineering. It's not the most
valuable piece in my collection, either. But it's my most treasured,
because it reminds me of that first restored feeling of freedom back
then, and of Grandmom.
Dave Connell aka Ka Faraq Gatri
kfg...@rcn.com
I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America,
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
edicius
> Who cares how much the toy is worth anyway? Do you like it less
> for some reason if you can't boast about its value or try to sell
> it to some fan for an insane amount.
Well, there are other reasons to know the worth of TFs too. For
instance, I've been attempting to create an entire listing with
average prices of my entire collection to submit to my insurance
company for my renter's insurance. It's just a pain that there are no
reliable pricing guides out there that aren't just gouging the prices
upward.
---
+kevin.wojtaszek+ (edicius)
http://www.edicius.org
e-mail: edicius(at)edicius(dot)org
---
"If you dare to have dreams of power, you will be consumed by them."
-Megatron
---
Pyre
>
> What does that have to do with how much a TF toy is worth?
> Its apples and oranges. I don't get the toys because of how
> much they are worth. I said I don't care what the toy is worth
> and I don't. I just want to be able to collect them at reasonable
> prices and before 2002 that was impossible and it sucked.
I agree. The value of my collection is meaningless to me because I have
no intention to sell any of it.
>
> Well you can still give it to your children even with the reissues.
> Nothing has changed. Why does it matter what the value of
> them is according to some silly price guide? They still mean
> something to you, especially if you don't want to get rid of them.
>
That's what I don't understand. If there's no plan to sell them, then why
worry about their worth? If there's value placed on them based on your
childhood memories and such, then I can understand that, but the
impression I'm getting is that you place a monetary value on them.
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"I feel my world shake, like an earthquake.
Hard to see clear. Is it me, is it fear?
Madly in Anger with you. I'm madly in anger with you."
Pyre
>
> The toys have to have a certain value for them to be worth handing
> down to your children? The most valued items my mom has, the ones that
> she has given me the most detailed instructions about their
> distribution when she dies, aren't the most valuable items she owns.
> They're the ones with sentimental value.
Exactly. I imagine your children wont care about the monetary value
either. They'll think of them as valuable because the collection belonged
to YOU. It's something that was important to you and thus is valuable to
them because of that.
Ethan Hammond
>
> > Who cares how much the toy is worth anyway? Do you like it less
> > for some reason if you can't boast about its value or try to sell
> > it to some fan for an insane amount.
>
> Well, there are other reasons to know the worth of TFs too. For
> instance, I've been attempting to create an entire listing with
> average prices of my entire collection to submit to my insurance
> company for my renter's insurance. It's just a pain that there are no
> reliable pricing guides out there that aren't just gouging the prices
> upward.
You can actually insure your TF's?
Ethan Hammond
> > Its apples and oranges. I don't get the toys because of how
> > much they are worth. I said I don't care what the toy is worth
> > and I don't. I just want to be able to collect them at reasonable
> > prices and before 2002 that was impossible and it sucked.
>
> Nothing is truly apples and oranges if you think about it. If you say
> you don't care about value, then you don't care about *any* value, not
> just the value of a toy. Hence, my car reference. Maybe not the *best*
> example, but you hopefully get the point.
I drive a Mustang, but I didn't buy it because it is worth something, I
bought
it because I think Mustangs are cool and was tired of driving a sedan type
car. Anyway cares depreciate in value, and very rarely increase in value.
A car loses half its value in the first year.
> As for pre-2002, I'm happy
> it no longer sucks for you. I suppose you could say that both camps
> can't be happy a the same time and now it's "our" turn to suffer. ;)
> It's unfortunate, but there really is no happy medium. While you're now
> getting what you want, it comes at the expense of hurting those of us
> who paid those exhorbitant prices once upon a time, because it means
> most of that money was essentially wasted, seeing as how they're not
> going for such prices any more thanks to said reissues.
The thing is, the reissues should allow you to get more TF's to pass down
to your kids. Since the Takara ones especially are 99% the same as what
came out when we were kids. Comics were the same way, when I
collected in the early 90's they cost a lot more for backissues and now
you can get the same comic for about 1/4 of what it cost in the early
90's. This is why you have to be careful in those kinds of markets,
what something is worth one day, may not be what it is worth the
next. Just like the stock market, or anything.
> For them to be able to walk into a Toys R Us and say "Look Dad, the same
> one you gave me" takes away from that. Big time.
I don't think so. Especially that when I was mainly into TF's as a kid we
lived in Japan, so my parents can't believe how cheap TF's are now
compared to then. They are like its cool that you can get such good
deals on these now.
Ethan Hammond
>
> > What does that have to do with how much a TF toy is worth?
> > Its apples and oranges. I don't get the toys because of how
> > much they are worth. I said I don't care what the toy is worth
> > and I don't. I just want to be able to collect them at reasonable
> > prices and before 2002 that was impossible and it sucked.
>
> I agree. The value of my collection is meaningless to me because I have
> no intention to sell any of it.
We are in concurrance.
> > Well you can still give it to your children even with the reissues.
> > Nothing has changed. Why does it matter what the value of
> > them is according to some silly price guide? They still mean
> > something to you, especially if you don't want to get rid of them.
> >
>
> That's what I don't understand. If there's no plan to sell them, then why
> worry about their worth? If there's value placed on them based on your
> childhood memories and such, then I can understand that, but the
> impression I'm getting is that you place a monetary value on them.
With the reissues he should be able to get more to pass onto his kids
too. Especially from Takara because they are the same as the old ones,
except brand new and not as expensive.
Robert Powers
Behold! On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:14:01 -0500, Jim <m...@privacy.net> did
speak:
>rips, etc." It's a hunt I grant you, but what collectors aren't by
>nature also hunters?
*raises hand* Me! Me! I'm not!
I have said this before, but it bears repeating: I for one care
*nothing* for the hunt. This is a hobby I'm in purely for fun, and
endlessly dragging myself all over creation vainly searching for some
stupid toy is not my idea of fun at all. I want to go to a nearby store,
find what I'm after, and get back home with it as quickly as possible.
And I've never had any interest in owning all the toys, either. I buy
soley based on what looks cool and appealing to me personally, which tends
to be maybe 50% - 75% of the toys out at any given time. The numbers are
lower still for G1, honestly -- of the first two years of Transformers, I
doubt I own more than 25 toys, and I've got just about all the ones I want
(well, maybe a brand new Hoist and Grapple would be nice... but we'll
see.)
Also, I couldn't care less that my Prowl is a reissue. He's new and
sparkly and he's the Prowl from the cartoon that I thought was so cool,
and that's good enough for me.
>Reissues also almost seem catered to the impatient "gotta have it now"
>people. Whatever happened to "if you can't afford it, don't buy it!"?
>I mean, there are tons of stuff I'd LIKE to have, but if I can't afford
>to have it, I learn to live without it. Do I ask Chevy to reissue an
I... don't follow here.
Honestly, at age 29, I can much more easily afford Prowl for $40 than I
could when I was 11 and Prowl cost $12.
--
Robert Powers
repo...@uwm.edu ________________________________________
| Built St. Louis |
| http://www.BuiltStLouis.net/ |
|________ Tracking the city's endangered architecture _|
Jim
unexpected, but it happens. It's only a part of my overall reasoning,
but when you pay a lot of money for something, it's always nice to know
if you HAD to you could get that money back. I don't feel that way
anymore with all the money I've spent on originals. Again, it's not the
overriding reason, but it's a factor.
Denyer
> away your car? Not to help someone out. Not to get yourself out of a
> debt. Just decide one day to leave it with the keys in it and walk
> away? If you say no, you can't say value means nothing to you.
Wooooo... Dilbert Logic. Why bother arguing what was said when you can
turn it into an irrational extreme?
> I planned on holding on to my collection and watching it go up
> in value over time and then eventually handing it down to my children.
Buy decent investment bonds, if you care about ensuring your
children's financial future. Collectables are *never* a fall-back.
Their monetary value is strongly reliant on supply-and-demand.
Denyer,
www.tfarchive.com
David Willis
> but when you pay a lot of money for something, it's always nice to know
> if you HAD to you could get that money back. I don't feel that way
> anymore with all the money I've spent on originals.
Excellent! Now we've learned a lesson.
--David
If you want an investment, buy some stock, not playthings.
www.itswalky.com
Denyer
> care about others knowing, there would be a lot less posts of "hey look
> what i just got" on the net.
Yes, but you're worried that you'll get less adoration because other
people might have something which is virtually identical to what you
have. On the boards of which I'm a member and in real life, we usually
just settle for being happy for someone who values their new
acquisition. For example, many people consider Fort Max a worthless
brick and the only reason they'd give it floor space would be to sell
it on to someone with more money than sense. That doesn't stop them
being happy for someone who really wanted a Fort Max and got one.
> I think you're just deluding yourself that
> [...] everything I'm saying isn't true.
Ouch. I think I broke something laughing...
> I'm not sure I get your point. Takara had to adapt or they wouldn't
> have survived. Hasbro was in no such position.
Takara does business at the expense of other companies. Just like
Hasbro.
> to see knockoffs as a part
> of a *collection* that's a different thing entirely.
Why? Seems you've abitrarily designated the word 'collection' to
signify a narrow agenda. As an example, take the Hot Rodimus
micromaster. Quanties in circulation are limited enough that the only
guaranteed way to secure one is to track down an owner and threaten
them with physical violence. Moulded plastic is not worth hundreds of
bucks no matter how scarce it is; it's an inch-and-a-half toy, for
crying out loud. Again, it comes down to collecting Transformers (the
toys represent something *and* have engineering value) or just
collecting toys. For this reason, many people are happy with their
Star Saber knockoffs.
> To me, I'd rather save for a long time to have the REAL thing than pop a
> five dollar bill for something that falls apart as soon as I open it!
Buy better knockoffs, if you're worried about them breaking. I can't
help feel you're going by anecdotal evidence, as all of the 'G1'
knockoffs I've ever bought have been distinctly sturdy. I probably
paid more for a knock-off Twintwist than I would have had to for the
genuine article, but I digress...
> Or to put it another way, "you get what you pay for."
Open Source Software. Generally, only idiots need tech support lines.
> go with diecast so they would come as close as possible, and
> therefore REPLACE the need for originals.
They may replace a perceived need; they cannot replace an original
article. That isn't semantics, it's merely accurate.
> your argument is based largely on "toy buyers"
> and not "collectors" as I do feel the two view it differently.
Ah, right, so I'm not a collector by your twist of logic and
artificial distinction. I was a collector at the age of six. It always
strikes me as funny the way people try to appropriate terms to make
them seem more 'adult' and mature; rather like the substitution of
'graphic novel' for 'comic book'. The former is arguably more
descriptive, but the reason people substitute is because they don't
want to be seen reading comics. We're adults and we buy and collect
toys. So?
> and for a lot of collectors, the original is *supposed* to be the one
> most desired. Think of how many times Amazing Fantasy has been
> reprinted, yet the original retains its value. I honestly don't see why
> the same isn't being true with the original G1's.
Actually, you'll note that most comics depreciate in value when
collected editions (with all that nicely bound acid-free paper) come
around. A few *superb* quality originals retain their appeal to an
increasingly limited circle of buyers. It weeds out the stuff which
isn't in pristine condition; people would rather have something new
otherwise. And eventually, *none* of the originals are in pristine
condition.
Again: what's the point of a Transformer you never transform because
you fear its loss of monetary value?
Denyer,
www.tfarchive.com
Gabi T.M. D'Galvatron
> > Sure , I will pick up a MISB original G1 Tracks eventually when my G1
> > collecting days will end , but in the mean time I am quite pleased
> > that I have a Tracks to fiddle with . (even if his ches door does not
> > open fully)
>
> Ok, not owning the reissue (and this would be one of the only reasons
> for wanting to own it--tighter joints), I've got to ask what you mean
> about the door. Do the doors on reissue Tracks stick?
I can't say if this is a problem that is specific to my toy or if it's
a general glitch , but on my Takara re-issue of Tracks the door on the
roof simply dosent want to open up very much . :-(
It opens up a little , about as wide as to stick a match through the
opening , but no more .
Now as I've considered that this is in fact his chest in robot mode ,
I chose to ignore the problem , rather then to start to experiment
with it .
I'm sure that if I woud open the toy up and sand some plastic off the
rear of the white plastic pice inside his chest then that woud solve
the problem , but I'm much too busty for any patient and cearfull TF
repair work at the moment .
Besidse , it's not _that_ important . :-)
> > >My problem
> > > is that they exist in the first place and they're making others not
> > > appreciate the originals as much,
> What I meant is that people aren't appreciating that they sometimes have
> to save up for something they really want, rather than having it handed
> to them on a silver $30 MiB platter.
Hey , that's a $30 _MISB_ silver platter !!! :-)
> I'm sure people will still
> appreciate that I have the originals, but it won't be like a "Whoah! I
> remember those! Those were so cool! Man, you're so lucky to have
> those."
Perhaps , but as I've read your other responses as well , I think that
the distruption of your opportunity to hand down something that is
"worth something" to the next generation seems to bother you more .
I can understand bouth statments , allthough they don't match my world
view .
My collecting habbit got "rewarded" by muchos dissing over the years
rather than your :
" Whoah! I remember those! Those were so cool! Man, you're so lucky
to have those." bit .
Not that there were't pepole who drooled as well , but they don't
count ! ;-)
So , it wasn't untill about a year and a half ago that I decided to
say "Fuck'em !" , and went ahead and created my first dislay chase for
TF's .
As to my "they don't count" drool bots , I for example was (and still
am) plenty fearfull for bouth the "health" of my fragile G1 toys , and
their cleanyness , wich were bouth in danger whenever a toy/TF
inthusiast came calling .
(so you can understand that as soon as force fields become
commercially available , I'll be putting my TF's behind one !
It's unfortunate that right now I have to sattle for a cheap
electrical charge from the wall weiring ... . :-p)
>I think every collector likes the feeling that they own
> something special. Reissues take away from that feeling, because even
> though yours was "first" it's not the "only."
I can understand that ... , allthough if this can cheer you up ,
think about the fact than not _every_ G1 toy will get re-issued (and I
can give you a large list of toys that won't) -- so there will still
be plenty of "one shot/special" toys .
Aaand , from a collectors POV , I think that the toys are not the only
things that are out there wich you can hold in the "one of a
kind/rare" status .
I , as well as many many other TF collectors have some items that are
scarse , or there's a plain fat chance that other's will get their
hands on something exactly like it -- the most common category to
these items are from the forgin merchandise category (toys , books ,
comics , toothpaste and what not.) .
(not forgetting the fabeled blue tennis ball that has "Transformers"
written on it .) ;-)
But above all this , I'll maintain that the most "special" item to you
shoud be what *you* consider special , something that instantly cheers
you up , or calms you down , or just plain makes you happy .
Investing _too much_ thought and energy into what others might think
or do think is counter productive ... , at least in the issue of
collecting toys . :-)
(not that that is not an important issue , but still ... :-) .
>And to make it even
> worse, yours that you slaved over and worked hard to be able to buy is
> devalued because of the existence of this "imposter"
Again , as I've said , I understand this pilosophy from an economic
standpoint .
But to me this is hardly the most important thing .
For example , there is now a re-issue G1 Thrust out there .
For me it's no big deal , as my own Thrust is my first Seeker jet ,
and the only one I've had as a child , and that makes the emotional
attachment that I have to it outweigh any other concerns by leaps and
bounds .
It's the same with Sideswipe , same with Hoist , and the same with a
samll number of other toys that I've had as a child .
I honestly don't know how I feel toward the re-issues of the G1 toys
that I've picked up as an adult , as they for me somehow fall into a
different emotional category . They are special , but somehow not that
spacial .
I'dunno , I guess I don't have a definite policy on those toys and
some of their current re-issues .
> > > I think it all comes down to respect for letting a toyline have it's
> > > place in history and leaving it at that. Corporate greed, however,
> has
> > > spoken.
> >
> > Then you shoud be angry with Takara , and not Hasbro , as they started
> > with the re-issues , and they did it for over a year and a half before
> > Hasbro decided that it might just work for them as well .
>
> True, but Takara had a reason. They were very nearly put out of
> business. Hasbro had no such problem. They just saw a chance to make
> more money. Which I'll grant is the purpose of a business. But
> Takara's was out of necessity and desperation. Hasbro's was purely
> greed.
Erm , no offense but :
a) I'm not too sure if that is true or not -- in regards to Takara .
Takara had enough finances to produce the PVC TF line ... -- something
that I think came before the first re-issue of OP , who was the first
to be re-issued ) .
As that was a success , I think Takara decided to try for the
re-issues .
But maybe I'm wrong .
In any chase , I still doubt that it was TF's or bust for Takara .
If I'm not mistaken , their (not so successful) "Web Diver" toy line
was their priority during those years .
In Hasbro's part , I simply refuse to see it as greed .
Answering (or creating) a response by product is the way of the
capitalist economy . Woud you preffer communism instead ?
Besidse , as we well know , there are one or two actual Transfans in
Hasbro right now -- Andrew Frankel to name one -- someone who was a
part of the fandom before he became employed by Hasbro .
I don't know how he may be involved with the G1 re-issues , but I have
heard that he pushed hard to have Brave Max re-issued in the US , and
he was behind the relise of Megabolt Megatron and Air Attack OP to the
mass market after the latter two toys were scrapped by Hasbro .
And no , I do not consider myself a "fan" of Hasbro -- I'm not exactly
thrilled by their entry to the TF convention circuit , but I try my
best to remain indifferent towards them .
I owe them nothing , and I'm sure that on some "cosmic level" it's a
mutual feeling . :-)
Heck , it's better then the usual "I love Hasbro" / "I HATE HASBRO"
bit .
> > But hey , I have another question for you :
> > I'm curious though -- how do you feel about G1 toys that have been
> > used in other TF toy lines ?
> > Bruticus , Fort Max ?
> >
> > Are they "cheap imitations" as well ?
> >
> > -Gabi.
> Nah. They're not trying to be the original. They're repaints/retools.
> I seem them about as much a threat as G2 was to G1 or Universe is to BW.
But from a "value" standpoint (hey , I'm stealing your thunder now ;-)
, as I see it , Brave Max has in fact devalued Fort Max by a couple
hundred dollars , if not more .
To be more precise -- I see a lot of pepole "settling" for a Brave Max
for $100+/- , something that made Fort Max drop in price fom $1000+ to
$800 or even less .
Same thing with the original Combaticons , wich sell for less due to
their over use in re-colors .
Next to them , the Stunticons , or the Terrorcons still command
slightly more money .
(even if the general value of loose Terrorcons , Stunticons .
Aerialbots came down collectively in the last two years . Only the
Predacons seemed to have carved out a stedy and incriseing pricepoint
.)
So , to put it simply , IMO the re-use of old molds for new shows has
in fact hurt the value of their "high priced" G1 counter parts .
> I wouldn't even call the reissues necessarily a 'cheap imitation' and if
> I did I shouldn't have. In fact, they're high quality, which just makes
> them even MORE like the original and therefore a source of devaluation
> of the originals .
I see that you agree in the devalueation factor here , so I wonder how
come you react to the re-issues so negatively , yet you react
diferently to other toys that still steal the thunder of the G1 toys
that you value for their value . ;-)
As you say , the re-makes are of high quality .
I am one who has strong complaints against the re-issues on that
premise -- that they are in fact of lower quality / different
(sometimes plastic , sometimes molding , sometimes stickers ,
sometimes coloring) than the originals were ... -- thus for my tastes
, I am still sattleing somewhat when I buy a re-issue .
Thus , to _Me_ , the originals still hold a different value .
But at the same time , I'm not bothered at all by those fans who
choose the re-issues .
After all , sometimes , I choose them as well . :-)
Cheers ,
-Gabi.
Jim
> > If people didn't
> > care about others knowing, there would be a lot less posts of "hey
look
> > what i just got" on the net.
>
> Yes, but you're worried that you'll get less adoration because other
> people might have something which is virtually identical to what you
> have. On the boards of which I'm a member and in real life, we usually
> just settle for being happy for someone who values their new
> acquisition. For example, many people consider Fort Max a worthless
> brick and the only reason they'd give it floor space would be to sell
> it on to someone with more money than sense. That doesn't stop them
> being happy for someone who really wanted a Fort Max and got one.
>
something new to add to their collection. And if you really want to
nitpick my arguments apart and confusing issues by accusing me of things
I don't do or feel, you're barking up the oh so wrong tree. At least
identify your target before opening fire.
> > I think you're just deluding yourself that
> > [...] everything I'm saying isn't true.
>
> Ouch. I think I broke something laughing...
>
> > I'm not sure I get your point. Takara had to adapt or they wouldn't
> > have survived. Hasbro was in no such position.
>
> Takara does business at the expense of other companies. Just like
> Hasbro.
Right, but we're talking about the difference in a company *surviving*
and a company just adding more to the pile of money. Takara had just
about been done in. Hasbro had no such problem.
>
> > to see knockoffs as a part
> > of a *collection* that's a different thing entirely.
>
> Why? Seems you've abitrarily designated the word 'collection' to
> signify a narrow agenda. As an example, take the Hot Rodimus
> micromaster. Quanties in circulation are limited enough that the only
> guaranteed way to secure one is to track down an owner and threaten
> them with physical violence. Moulded plastic is not worth hundreds of
> bucks no matter how scarce it is; it's an inch-and-a-half toy, for
> crying out loud. Again, it comes down to collecting Transformers (the
> toys represent something *and* have engineering value) or just
> collecting toys. For this reason, many people are happy with their
> Star Saber knockoffs.
Excuse me, but now I think it's my turn to hurt myself laughing. What
makes you the authority on how much things are worth? If it's your
opinion, fine, say that. But to flat out say that a toy *isn't* worth
hundreds of dollars, shows a little ignorance on your part. A toy, or
anything else for that matter, is worth what a person is willing to pay
for it. Take a brand new toy for instance. So the hype is out and
everyone seems to want it. People have paid and will again pay LOADS
more than what reason would dictate for this "piece of plastic." Once
the hype dies down (another concept that I don't understand--a rare toy
should always be worth something regardless of whether you saw ten other
people express interest in it and now you want it too because they
do--but I digress) the toy goes for a lot less in the market. Were
those people *wrong* who paid $100+ for the "piece of plastic". Of
course not. It's their money and should be allowed to spend as they see
fit. Now were they perhaps 'unwise' about spending as much? Perhaps.
But again, it's THEIR money, not mine.
>
> > To me, I'd rather save for a long time to have the REAL thing than
pop a
> > five dollar bill for something that falls apart as soon as I open
it!
>
> Buy better knockoffs, if you're worried about them breaking. I can't
> help feel you're going by anecdotal evidence, as all of the 'G1'
> knockoffs I've ever bought have been distinctly sturdy. I probably
> paid more for a knock-off Twintwist than I would have had to for the
> genuine article, but I digress...
Wrong. I'm going from personal experience.
>
> > Or to put it another way, "you get what you pay for."
>
> Open Source Software. Generally, only idiots need tech support lines.
Teach me oh wise one. I notice you went for the zing and omitted the
quote. Reason? Easier to ridicule and seeing as how I'm an idiot and
all...maybe I'm touching a nerve? Generally, when someone gets
defensive, they like to attack other people.
> > go with diecast so they would come as close as possible, and
> > therefore REPLACE the need for originals.
>
> They may replace a perceived need; they cannot replace an original
> article. That isn't semantics, it's merely accurate.
Your whole argument is semantics and I can't help feeling I'm in an
episode of "Politically Incorrect." So it replaces a need, fine. Is
that what you want me to say? Sheesh! The point is, it *replaces!*
>
> > your argument is based largely on "toy buyers"
> > and not "collectors" as I do feel the two view it differently.
>
> Ah, right, so I'm not a collector by your twist of logic and
> artificial distinction. I was a collector at the age of six. It always
> strikes me as funny the way people try to appropriate terms to make
> them seem more 'adult' and mature; rather like the substitution of
> 'graphic novel' for 'comic book'. The former is arguably more
> descriptive, but the reason people substitute is because they don't
> want to be seen reading comics. We're adults and we buy and collect
> toys. So?
I don't think I've ever met a six year old "collector" but I'm sure I
could be wrong. So since you seem determined to prod me until I give
you my personal definition of a "collector" here it is:
A six year old still plays with the toys. Not transform and repose.
Actual PLAYING. They could care less about the condition of their
collection as they probably tend to smack them into the wall a lot (I
did it too so don't accuse me of being haughty). If the child is
imaginative enough, he might create whole worlds to play in or develop e
laborate storylines to PLAY with the toys.
In contast a "collector" may or may not play with the toys on occasion.
But they tend to dust off their collection (ever catch a six year old
dusting their "collection?") and have lists of what all they have and
still need to complete the collection. They may or may not be
completists and they may or may not be MIB collectors, but they
invariably take good care of said collection. Now, admittedly there may
be *some* six year olds out there who like to take care of their toys,
but I doubt to the degree of care that an adult collector would. And
just looking around at the general amount of posts thanking Hasbro for
reissuing "the toy I had when I was a kid, but it's long gone now" I'd
say the number of kids who actually *did* treat their toys with the care
of an adult collector is very, very small.
I'm sure I'll think of other differences later, but this is a good
rudimentary distinction between the two. At six years old, if you were
any kind of a normal child, I doubt you were a collector. I know I
wasn't.
>
> > and for a lot of collectors, the original is *supposed* to be the
one
> > most desired. Think of how many times Amazing Fantasy has been
> > reprinted, yet the original retains its value. I honestly don't see
why
> > the same isn't being true with the original G1's.
>
> Actually, you'll note that most comics depreciate in value when
> collected editions (with all that nicely bound acid-free paper) come
> around. A few *superb* quality originals retain their appeal to an
> increasingly limited circle of buyers. It weeds out the stuff which
> isn't in pristine condition; people would rather have something new
> otherwise. And eventually, *none* of the originals are in pristine
> condition.
>
> Again: what's the point of a Transformer you never transform because
> you fear its loss of monetary value?
Once again, you're asking a question I never posed since most of my
Transformers are opened and displayed along with the artistic packaging
that some feel is just wrapping for the toy.
>
> Denyer,
> www.tfarchive.com
Jim
David Willis <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hpHgb.59544$uJ2....@fe3.columbus.rr.com...
Sigh. How many times must I keep repeating? They weren't *meant*
solely as an investment. It's a *side* advantage people! You can't
enjoy stock in the same way you enjoy a toy. Try, I doubt you'll like
it as much.
>
>
Jim
Ok, let's look at this another way. Think of it as an "inheritance"
rather than a "hand me down." A person might not have much to pass
down, having had a hard life, but if they had their original
Transformers from when they were kids, they used to be worth something.
They were a solid "investment" that would mature over time and if times
got rough, well you knew you could sell them and live ok for a while.
That's some security I could offer to my children for when they had hard
times. Now, that is being taken away. Do you see why I might get a
little defensive about that? This really isn't about getting rich and
shoving it to people on ebay or depriving others out of selfishness or
whatever *some* people might have been thinking.
>
Jim
Ok, of all the things you've said, I'll finally agree with you on this
one point. Maybe I made an error in judgment--I'll grant you that-- but
I still feel passionately about my arguments against the reissues and
their affect on aftermarket values.
Jim
>
> >I think every collector likes the feeling that they own
> > something special. Reissues take away from that feeling, because
even
> > though yours was "first" it's not the "only."
>
> I can understand that ... , allthough if this can cheer you up ,
> think about the fact than not _every_ G1 toy will get re-issued (and I
> can give you a large list of toys that won't) -- so there will still
> be plenty of "one shot/special" toys .
Hmm. I wouldn't mind seeing that list. After all this, I'm actually
thinking of selling some of my collection while the getting is good and
then rebuying later after the reissues are released. Fool me twice,
shame on me...so I wouldn't mind having a leg up on what absolutely
WON'T be reissued. Although, are you *sure* that they won't be
reissued? People thought Soundwave was an impossibility, and look what
happened? Even though he's not coming from Hasbro any time soon, that
doesn't mean he definately won't ever, and I don't want to be the one
standing around with my original when/if that happens. I'd say Jetfire
is doubtful too with all the legal entanglements, but then people never
thought we'd see a Unicron toy. Things change.
Ok, that makes sense. Fans came to a position of power within Hasbro to
make things happen. I'll buy that.
> And I really don't understand that either. Economy aside, we are in
the middle of an 80's rebirth. Seems strange that values would go
*down* during such a frenzy. Any thoughts?
> So , to put it simply , IMO the re-use of old molds for new shows has
> in fact hurt the value of their "high priced" G1 counter parts .
>
>
> > I wouldn't even call the reissues necessarily a 'cheap imitation'
and if
> > I did I shouldn't have. In fact, they're high quality, which just
makes
> > them even MORE like the original and therefore a source of
devaluation
> > of the originals .
>
> I see that you agree in the devalueation factor here , so I wonder how
> come you react to the re-issues so negatively , yet you react
> diferently to other toys that still steal the thunder of the G1 toys
> that you value for their value . ;-)
>
> As you say , the re-makes are of high quality .
> I am one who has strong complaints against the re-issues on that
> premise -- that they are in fact of lower quality / different
> (sometimes plastic , sometimes molding , sometimes stickers ,
> sometimes coloring) than the originals were ... -- thus for my tastes
> , I am still sattleing somewhat when I buy a re-issue .
> Thus , to _Me_ , the originals still hold a different value .
Interesting. Care to give a breakdown? Which parts of which reissues
do you feel are of a lesser quality? I'm curious myself on the quality
of Soundwave. The original was prone to flopping forward with lose knee
joints. I wonder if this is the case with the reissue as well?
Ethan Hammond
> rather than a "hand me down." A person might not have much to pass
> down, having had a hard life, but if they had their original
> Transformers from when they were kids, they used to be worth something.
> They were a solid "investment" that would mature over time and if times
> got rough, well you knew you could sell them and live ok for a while.
> That's some security I could offer to my children for when they had hard
> times. Now, that is being taken away. Do you see why I might get a
> little defensive about that? This really isn't about getting rich and
> shoving it to people on ebay or depriving others out of selfishness or
> whatever *some* people might have been thinking.
LOL I would be scared to death if my Dad said he was gonna
pay for my college by selling his toys he had as a kid. Well if
my Dad actually paid for my college to begin with. Its great
to want to give your TFs to your kids, but they should like them
because of what they are worth to you and as a family heriloom
not a monetary investment.
Ethan Hammond
> thinking of selling some of my collection while the getting is good and
> then rebuying later after the reissues are released. Fool me twice,
> shame on me...so I wouldn't mind having a leg up on what absolutely
> WON'T be reissued. Although, are you *sure* that they won't be
> reissued? People thought Soundwave was an impossibility, and look what
> happened? Even though he's not coming from Hasbro any time soon, that
> doesn't mean he definately won't ever, and I don't want to be the one
> standing around with my original when/if that happens. I'd say Jetfire
> is doubtful too with all the legal entanglements, but then people never
> thought we'd see a Unicron toy. Things change.
Because fans don't know what Hasbro or Takara can do. I have
a MIB Minerva that I paid $150 for. If Takara reissued her would
I buy the reissue? You bet I would. Minerva rules.
edicius
> "edicius" <GOSPAMY...@edicius.org> wrote in message
> >
> > > Who cares how much the toy is worth anyway? Do you like it less
> > > for some reason if you can't boast about its value or try to sell
> > > it to some fan for an insane amount.
> >
> > Well, there are other reasons to know the worth of TFs too. For
> > instance, I've been attempting to create an entire listing with
> > average prices of my entire collection to submit to my insurance
> > company for my renter's insurance. It's just a pain that there are no
> > reliable pricing guides out there that aren't just gouging the prices
> > upward.
>
> You can actually insure your TF's?
Most definitely! They qualify under collectables in my renter's
insurance, no joke. Even discussed it with my agent over the phone. I
know there's a category-based cap on losses from theft (which leads to
seperating collectables into categories - perhaps even divided by
series?), but aside from that, I think the sky's the limit.
Strangely, it was my mother who kept bugging me about getting renter's
insurance. Not to protect my multitude of electronics or
anything...but to protect my Transformers. Gotta love my mom. :)
Ka Faraq Gatri
>I don't think I've ever met a six year old "collector" but I'm sure I
>could be wrong. So since you seem determined to prod me until I give
>you my personal definition of a "collector" here it is:
>
>A six year old still plays with the toys. Not transform and repose.
>Actual PLAYING. They could care less about the condition of their
>collection as they probably tend to smack them into the wall a lot (I
>did it too so don't accuse me of being haughty). If the child is
>imaginative enough, he might create whole worlds to play in or develop e
>laborate storylines to PLAY with the toys.
>In contast a "collector" may or may not play with the toys on occasion.
>But they tend to dust off their collection (ever catch a six year old
>dusting their "collection?") and have lists of what all they have and
>still need to complete the collection. They may or may not be
>completists and they may or may not be MIB collectors, but they
>invariably take good care of said collection. Now, admittedly there may
>be *some* six year olds out there who like to take care of their toys,
>but I doubt to the degree of care that an adult collector would. And
>just looking around at the general amount of posts thanking Hasbro for
>reissuing "the toy I had when I was a kid, but it's long gone now" I'd
>say the number of kids who actually *did* treat their toys with the care
>of an adult collector is very, very small.
I have to disagree. (surprise, surprise :-) _Anyone_ who obtains
more than one of a particular type of thing is a collector. My 7 year
old cousin is a collector of Yugioh cards and paraphenalia and
Transformers. My mom collects mugs (some of which do get used for
morning coffee) and Beleek bone china pieces. I (obviously) collect
TFs, and comics and some anime figures. What one does with the
collection is irrelevant. My young cousin, BTW, treats his TFs with
great care, and was very upset when the minicon for his deluxe Optimus
was lost. If you asked him if he collected TFs, he would almost
certainly say yes. But by your criteria, he isn't one.
I am very careful with my TFs, but I do play with them regularly,
otherwise I see no point in having them. My comic collection, however,
gets nowhere near the kid glove treatment it used to. These days they
just get stacked in boxes, while I used to have the collection
carefully organized, bagged, catalogued. I am still a comic collector,
though, just more casual than I used to be.
>
>I'm sure I'll think of other differences later, but this is a good
>rudimentary distinction between the two. At six years old, if you were
>any kind of a normal child, I doubt you were a collector. I know I
>wasn't.
You might have been a different, more casual kind of collector than
you are now, but you were still a collector.
David Willis
> more than one of a particular type of thing is a collector.
Bingo.
My Armada Scavenger sees lots and lots of play. I have probably
500 Transformers. I'm a collector. I collect them. That doesn't
rule out me playing with them.
--David
Why would I want all these pieces of plastic if I didn't use them?
www.itswalky.com
Desperado00
Companionship on a lonely night?
Um...never mind...
-----
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
An egotist is a self-made man who worships his creator.
If we aren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
No horse is too dead to beat.
David Willis
>
> Companionship on a lonely night?
Hey, I *sold* my Bullet Train Team. :)
--David
www.itswalky.com
Desperado00
>>
>> Companionship on a lonely night?
>
>Hey, I *sold* my Bullet Train Team. :)
So...you're admitting to...
Never mind. I just don't want to know.
Ka Faraq Gatri
wrote:
>> >Why would I want all these pieces of plastic if I didn't use them?
>>
>> Companionship on a lonely night?
>
>Hey, I *sold* my Bullet Train Team. :)
8-0 Too much info!
Often-Wrong Zobovor
>> I can understand that ... , allthough if this can cheer you up ,
>> think about the fact than not _every_ G1 toy will get re-issued (and I
>> can give you a large list of toys that won't) -- so there will still
>> be plenty of "one shot/special" toys .
>
>Hmm. I wouldn't mind seeing that list. After all this, I'm actually
>thinking of selling some of my collection while the getting is good and
>then rebuying later after the reissues are released. Fool me twice,
>shame on me...so I wouldn't mind having a leg up on what absolutely
>WON'T be reissued.
The list would be far too long. It's easier to list what *will* probably be
reissued.
I am one hundred percent confident that all the Diaclone-era Autobot cars from
1984-85 will eventually be reissued by Takara. I'm less confident that Hasbro
will import every single one of them domestically. Somehow, I see Skids,
Ironhide, and Ratchet getting the short end of the stick on that one... or, at
least, constituting the very last wave of Hasbro reissues as a sort of "sorry,
that's all we've got left" gesture. (Quickly followed by a "okay, now give us
thirty bucks for each one" gesture.)
I suspect Takara will eventually move towards characters who were featured
heavily in the Japanese cartoons, but which Hasbro will have no reason to
pursue. Takara's already reissued Sixshot, and I don't exactly see Hasbro
scrambling to squeeze him into the next Commemorative Edition series.
(Powermaster Optimus Prime surprised the bejeezus out of me, honestly.) So, I
expect we'll be seeing other characters to follow like Chromedome, Galvatron,
Metalhawk, Star Saber, Deszaras, possibly Dinoking (though probably not,
considering how heavily Takara tends to not favor its Transformers villains).
I'd say the Constructicons and the Dinobots are very, very strong
possibilities. Omega Supreme and Perceptor and Blaster are probably all
shoe-ins, too. (It seems to me that Takara would be particularly interested in
pursuing this idea, assuming they can secure the license from whomever may own
it at this point, since Omega Supreme was never actually released in Japan, as
far as I'm aware. As an aside, one can only imagine the repaint possibilities
for Omega Supreme. Guardian Robot from "War Dawn," Dark Guardian from "Forever
is a Long Time Coming," Black Omega Supreme (showcasing the moment he threw
Astrotrain into the black hole during "Blaster Blues"), Clear Omega Supreme
(documenting the moment he was reprogrammed by the Robo-Smasher during "The
Secret of Omega Supreme"), Shining Omega Supreme (a vac-metal gold version
representing his having been coated with electrum during "The Golden
Lagoon")... aah, the list goes on. But not here.
I forsee Trypticon and Metroplex being reissued. And some of the Scramble City
gift sets not being too far behind. (If Takara produces a set of Stunticons in
the colors of the Autobots who were disguised as that group during
"Masquerade," I will import them the first day they become available. And I
*never* import Japanese toys.)
There are just *so* many other toys that will probably never, ever be reissued.
Toys that were never featured in the cartoon media (remember, Takara
determines which molds get cleaned up and repaired, and they never got the
Marvel comics), toys that represent non-characters, toys that weren't even
worth owning the *first* time they were released. Battlechargers.
Throttlebots. Duocons. Monsterbots. Sparkabots. Firecons. Triggerbots.
Triggercons. Pretty much all the Pretenders and Micromasters, which made up
the bulk of the toy line in the U.S. for its last three years.
And then there's toys that Takara never owned the license to and will probably
never get, including the Deluxe Autobots, Deluxe Insecticons, Jetfire, and
Shockwave. (It occurs to me that Takara may have had a say in Shockwave being
largely relegated to Cybertron in the cartoon show. Given that his toy was
never sold over there, it makes sense to restict him to having only occasional
roles in the same manner that, say, Arcee was.)
--
Zobovor
"Reluctantly, Trillian swallowed. It was either that or spit it out, and it
did in fact taste pretty good."--Mostly Harmless
ZMFTS: http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html
To e-mail me, chop that Minicon in half.
Zac Bond
"Often-Wrong Zobovor" <zob...@aol.comettor> wrote in message
news:20031009014122...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> will import every single one of them domestically. Somehow, I see
Skids,
> Ironhide, and Ratchet getting the short end of the stick on that
one...
Out of curiosity, why would Skids get it as bad as Ratchet and
Ironhide? He was the only of the G1 Autobot cars that I ever owned as
a child. At any rate I would be excited to see if some of the better
G1 car molds came out. I'd love to see Hound and Sunstreaker,
personally.
-Zac
Ethan Hammond
>
> Out of curiosity, why would Skids get it as bad as Ratchet and
> Ironhide? He was the only of the G1 Autobot cars that I ever owned as
> a child. At any rate I would be excited to see if some of the better
> G1 car molds came out. I'd love to see Hound and Sunstreaker,
> personally.
Skids dosen't have big name recognition cause he was barely
on the cartoon. Although we love him cause of issue #20 of
the comic.
Jim
Ka Faraq Gatri <kfg...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:8il8ovcv5uh3m2gdl...@4ax.com...
At the risk of being accused of semantics myself, I feel there's a fine
difference in a "collector" and "to collect." A person can collect on a
casual level and not be a true collector in my eyes (Notice i didn't put
that in quotes so I'm not trying to accuse anyone of not being a "true
collector" right now as that's a whole other can of worms to be opened
at another time.). Your cousin may have bought Yugioh cards, he might
have "collected" them, but I doubt unless he's one of a small breed that
he cared for them to the level that a less casual collector would.
Perhaps I didn't define a "collector" as well as I could. I was
speaking in terms of an "adult collector," one who cares for his/her
collection and spends a good amount of time maintaining their
collection. Not the casual collector who doesn't really spend time
maintaining or furthering their collection.
>
>
> >
> >I'm sure I'll think of other differences later, but this is a good
> >rudimentary distinction between the two. At six years old, if you
were
> >any kind of a normal child, I doubt you were a collector. I know I
> >wasn't.
>
> You might have been a different, more casual kind of collector than
> you are now, but you were still a collector.
See part I
Jim
rarest of the G1 cars being $100 or more. I always get him and Tracks
mixed up (although I have no idea why. They look nothing alike, just
that they came out about the same time).
>
>
Jim
Often-Wrong Zobovor <zob...@aol.comettor> wrote in message
news:20031009014122...@mb-m12.aol.com...
>
> > I suspect Takara will eventually move towards characters who were
featured
> heavily in the Japanese cartoons, but which Hasbro will have no reason
to
> pursue. Takara's already reissued Sixshot, and I don't exactly see
Hasbro
> scrambling to squeeze him into the next Commemorative Edition series.
> (Powermaster Optimus Prime surprised the bejeezus out of me,
honestly.) So, I
> expect we'll be seeing other characters to follow like Chromedome,
Galvatron,
> Metalhawk, Star Saber, Deszaras, possibly Dinoking (though probably
not,
> considering how heavily Takara tends to not favor its Transformers
villains).
And poor Powermaster Optimus still sits practically untouched, so I bet
they'll rethink pulling a fast one like that again.
>
> I'd say the Constructicons and the Dinobots are very, very strong
> possibilities. Omega Supreme and Perceptor and Blaster are probably
all
> shoe-ins, too. (It seems to me that Takara would be particularly
interested in
> pursuing this idea, assuming they can secure the license from whomever
may own
> it at this point, since Omega Supreme was never actually released in
Japan, as
> far as I'm aware. As an aside, one can only imagine the repaint
possibilities
> for Omega Supreme. Guardian Robot from "War Dawn," Dark Guardian from
"Forever
> is a Long Time Coming," Black Omega Supreme (showcasing the moment he
threw
> Astrotrain into the black hole during "Blaster Blues"), Clear Omega
Supreme
> (documenting the moment he was reprogrammed by the Robo-Smasher during
"The
> Secret of Omega Supreme"), Shining Omega Supreme (a vac-metal gold
version
> representing his having been coated with electrum during "The Golden
> Lagoon")... aah, the list goes on. But not here.
I find it curious that you would think a toy that was never produced by
Takara such as Omega Supreme and sat on the shelf with a high price
sticker would have a good chance of being reissued over say Shockwave,
which admittedly wasn't released in Japan but has the cult status nearly
of a Boba Fett in the Transformers universe. Those never stayed around
long! What's your reasoning for thinking this? Any cats to let out of
the bag?
I'll grant that the Constructicons are a possibility--if they can ever
get the rights back to the molds.
>
> I forsee Trypticon and Metroplex being reissued. And some of the
Scramble City
> gift sets not being too far behind. (If Takara produces a set of
Stunticons in
> the colors of the Autobots who were disguised as that group during
> "Masquerade," I will import them the first day they become available.
And I
> *never* import Japanese toys.)
I thought Takara didn't have the rights to or have lost the molds to
most of the merge groups. Also, I don't really understand why Trypticon
and Metroplex would be reissued. They never were the *hottest* sell if
I remember right. But then Takara did the Trypticon remold a few years
back, so I guess anythings possible.
>
> There are just *so* many other toys that will probably never, ever be
reissued.
> Toys that were never featured in the cartoon media (remember, Takara
> determines which molds get cleaned up and repaired, and they never got
the
> Marvel comics), toys that represent non-characters, toys that weren't
even
> worth owning the *first* time they were released. Battlechargers.
> Throttlebots. Duocons. Monsterbots. Sparkabots. Firecons.
Triggerbots.
> Triggercons. Pretty much all the Pretenders and Micromasters, which
made up
> the bulk of the toy line in the U.S. for its last three years.
I kind of liked the Monsterbots, but you're probably right there.
Takara would probably only do those as a last resort if they couldn't
release anything else. ;)
Downtown Torpedo
> The problem here is that people are so programmed to certain responses
> when talks like this come up, that they automatically assume someone is
> only in it "for the money", that they intend to scalp someone out of
> their hard earned paycheck on ebay. Actually the exact opposite is true
> for me. I planned on holding on to my collection and watching it go up
> in value over time and then eventually handing it down to my children.
> smaller degree Takara) has hurt this plan to a degree. But of course,
> people jump to conclusions and immediately assume the worst. My
> indignation is much less to do with "oh, I can't get X number of dollars
> for it now" than you might think and if you read my posts with that in
> mind, I think you'll understand why I'm feeling the way I am.
If you're not worrying about the monetary value, then I don't see why
your collection loses any value when you pass it to your kids. Little
Jimmy can have the satisfaction of knowing he's playing with the
original TFs, not the re-releases. And believe me, kids have a sense
of history with toys. I remember back in the day, trading brand new
GIJoe figures away to other kids on the playground in exchange for
beat-up, old original figures. Sure, they were happy with the shiny
new Sky Patrol, but I wanted to get my hands on the original Destro,
and Buzzsaw. Kids can definitely appreciate the history, and it's
likely your kids will appreciate the intrinsic value of your
collection irrespective of price.
Downtown.
(if the monetary value to your kids does matter, I'd recommend putting
money in a trust fund instead. or a Roth IRA)
Downtown Torpedo
>
> > begin to match that! As for the flap, well, that's where the "fun"
> > comes in. Searching for that perfect box without such "bends,
> tears,
> > rips, etc."
>
> I am unconcerned about the boxes, myself. I like boxed toys only
> because the act of opening them is pleasurable.
I definitely agree...it's a really heady rush opening a box and
getting a brand-new untouched toy. That's mostly why I don't buy other
people's opened toys...I like the feeling of having my own, unopened,
brand-new Transformer.
Downtown.
Downtown Torpedo
profit. But that's their job, to make a profit.
What disgusts me more is the scalpers, or those that buy a TF *solely*
for the purpose of re-selling it at a higher price. (I exclude those
who genuinely enjoy the figures, and are simply re-selling them to
clear space, raise some cash for more TFs, or have simply tired of or
outgrown the figures)
Isn't it better for everyone to have the re-issues? Now, rather than
you and I competing in a bidding war for one of three available Hot
Rods, all of which are likely played with, aged, and handled, possibly
for the benefit of a scalper, everyone can own Rodimus Major. The
casual buyer who wants a piece of his childhood benefits. Kids have
the opportunity to get a part of G1; they benefit. We have extras to
kitbash, display in pristine condition, or play with without fear of
damaging them; G1 lives on in popular culture, not with cheap cash-in
knockoffs or repaints, but lovingly restored originals. Transformers,
and Transfans alike benefit.
Reissues make us all winners.
The only objections I can see are personal, and to be honest, somewhat
self-centred.
"I don't feel special anymore now that everyone else can buy the same
Hot Rod I have."
If denying others the same happiness you feel at owning Hot Rod
honestly makes you feel better, or if your sense of self-worth is
wrapped up in acquiring and owning objects that others can't have,
then that doesn't say a whole lot about you as a person. (This is
unfortunately a pretty common phenomenon in society at large.)
"The value of my toys has gone down due to re-issues."
If you bought them for monetary value, that was an extremely
short-sighted decision. Buy bonds, stocks, put your money in
investments. You have only yourself to blame if you truly thought that
your MISB G1 collection was going to support you in your old age one
day. Besides, toys are fun, not investments, and personally speaking,
my enjoyment of the toys has nothing to do with their potential value
and everything to do with the positive associations with nostalgia,
childhood, a favorite character, etc.
"I paid a fortune for this toy, and now other people are getting it
for a cheaper price, that's not fair."
I certainly understand your frustration; it's only natural. I'm minded
of the Biblical tale where some laborers showed up to work in the
fields in the morning; others showed up at noon; still others showed
up in the evening, just as the work was almost wrapped up. Yet the
landowner compensated them all equally. Naturally, the workers who
came in the morning were incensed.
Now the point of that story was related to religion, but I cite it
here only to show that it's perfectly natural and acceptable to feel
cheated in such a situation. I bought some mint TFs on Ebay a while
back, then logged on the next day to see the same items being offered
at a much lower price. I felt a pang of regret/jealousy/frustration.
"Darn it, I could've gotten it a lower price...I paid more, someone
else pays less."
But regardless of how "unfair" that may be, there's really nothing we
can or should do about it. Why begrudge someone else their happiness?
We got our toys, let's just enjoy them for what they are and value all
the external factors at less than a penny.
Downtown.
Pyre
>
> I'll grant that the Constructicons are a possibility--if they can ever
> get the rights back to the molds.
...
What on earth gives you the idea that they don't have the rights to the molds?
>
> I thought Takara didn't have the rights to or have lost the molds to
> most of the merge groups.
I believe Orson had said that those molds are damaged or something. It's
possible that Takara may be trying to fix them or may plan to at some
point. We can only wait and see.
Pyre
> If Takara produces a set of Stunticons in
> the colors of the Autobots who were disguised as that group during
> "Masquerade," I will import them the first day they become available. And I
> *never* import Japanese toys.
Heh. Me too. I've been wanting to paint up a set of Stunticons like that
for a long time. I've just never gotten around to tracking down a set to
use. I'd probably have worked on it recently had the current knock off
sets had the correct figures in them. I'd also love to do the reverse and
paint up a set of Autobot cars in corresponding Stunticon colors but I
imagine such a task would be far too expensive unless I invested in
junkers and tried to repair them. *shrug*
Jim
> Jim wrote:
> >
> > I'll grant that the Constructicons are a possibility--if they can
ever
> > get the rights back to the molds.
>
> ...
>
> What on earth gives you the idea that they don't have the rights to
the molds?
The large number of knockoffs. And I know it's been mentioned a time or
two as well on Transformers boards.
Pyre
>
> The large number of knockoffs.
The knockoffs have nothing to do with whether or not Takara/Hasbro have
the rights to the molds. The knockoffs are bootlegged toys. They aren't
altogether legal and are generally made from copies of the toys. It's
like going into a store and buying a CDR copy of an CD. If Takara/Hasbro
wanted to release a set of Constructicons right now, assuming that the
molds are still viable, there's nothing to stop them. Case in point, look
at the recent Bruticus knockoff and RiD Ruination, both of which were made
available at roughly the same time.
David Willis
> ever
> > > get the rights back to the molds.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > What on earth gives you the idea that they don't have the rights to
> the molds?
>
> The large number of knockoffs. And I know it's been mentioned a time or
> two as well on Transformers boards.
I've seen a large number of knockoffs of a lot of Transformers toys, but
that doesn't mean HasTak doesn't own the rights to them. There's been a
large range of knockoffs of most Transformers made from every era,
from Blitzwing and Broadside to the Constructicons to Optimus Prime
to Flattop to a great chunk of Beast Wars and Beast Machines, to
giant Gigatrons and LioConvoys and Heinrads...
There's no evidence at all that HasTak lost the rights to the Constructicon
molds. If there is, I'd like to see it. You know, other than something
someone said on a message board being repeated into "fact."
(Which message boards are these anyway?)
--David
www.itswalky.com
M Sipher
news:20031009014122...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> And then there's toys that Takara never owned the license to and will
probably
> never get, including the Deluxe Autobots, Deluxe Insecticons, Jetfire, and
> Shockwave. (It occurs to me that Takara may have had a say in Shockwave
being
> largely relegated to Cybertron in the cartoon show. Given that his toy
was
> never sold over there, it makes sense to restict him to having only
occasional
> roles in the same manner that, say, Arcee was.)
Uh... Shockwave WAS sold in Japan. 1985, #49, 3980yen.
M "Unless The Big Official Checklist From The TRANSFORMERS GENERATIONS Book
Is Lying To Me" Sipher
--
King Weasel Productions
Home of the productions of King Weasel!
Original stuff, Transformers, MegaMan/RockMan and more crap!
http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/simak/109/
Jim
Downtown Torpedo <downtow...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e58b2dba.0310...@posting.google.com...
I'd agree with you, except the problem with your example is those
figures were different molds, right? These are practically the *same*
molds. If the choice were between the exact same figures, I bet you
would have chosen the ones in better shape. If not, well then you're
weird. ;p (just joking)
>
> Downtown.
>
> (if the monetary value to your kids does matter, I'd recommend putting
> money in a trust fund instead. or a Roth IRA)
Good advice, but that ship's already sailed thanks in part to Hasbro. I
guess there's always next time...got an extra 200 bucks I can borrow?
Jim
It's been stated that Takara no longer has the rights to some of those
molds. Several boards have mentioned this.
>
Jim
David Willis <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_6lhb.26125$cK5....@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
TF2005, the Allspark, Transfandom, etc. at one time or another.
David Willis
> molds. Several boards have mentioned this.
Can you name which boards, and who on these boards has
stated such? I remember when several boards mentioned
that Armada was going to have Tarantulas and Elita-One and
it was going to be animated by Mainframe and fix all the
mistakes in G1.
And, obviously, that was bull.
So what "several boards have mentioned" doesn't hold
much weight to me.
--David
www.itswalky.com
Jim
M Sipher <msi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:2Sphb.14234$mQ2...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
release. Although it wasn't recently.
David Willis
No, what Orson said was that they don't *have* the molds
to several of the combiner teams, or they've been damaged
extensively. That's quite different from "another toy company
inexplicably has the rights."
> It's been mentioned on
> TF2005, the Allspark, Transfandom, etc. at one time or another.
I was on all those boards for quite some time. I don't recall
that coming up.
--David
I'm not infallible, but...
www.itswalky.com
Often-Wrong Zobovor
>> Somehow, I see Skids, Ironhide, and Ratchet getting the short end of the
>>stick on that one...
>
>Out of curiosity, why would Skids get it as bad as Ratchet and
>Ironhide?
Just because he's the most obscure of the Autobot Cars, so the only people
likely to pick up a reissue version are probably either completists, or
die-hard fans of the character from the comics. My guess is that this number
pales rather drastically compared to all the many twentysomethings who would
buy reissues of Optimus Prime or Hot Rod on impulse because they have vague but
fond and loving memories of the characters. Skids has virtually zero nostalgia
value in this regard. His name was never even mentioned in the cartoon.
Zobovor, who actually *does* want to see Hasbro reissue Ironhide and Ratchet.
(Of all the characters who so *desperately* needed Action Masters, one wonders
why they weren't the very first characters Hasbro set out to render in humanoid
form...)
Often-Wrong Zobovor
>I find it curious that you would think a toy that was never produced by
>Takara such as Omega Supreme and sat on the shelf with a high price
>sticker would have a good chance of being reissued over say Shockwave,
>which admittedly wasn't released in Japan but has the cult status nearly
>of a Boba Fett in the Transformers universe. Those never stayed around
>long! What's your reasoning for thinking this? Any cats to let out of
>the bag?
I don't have any inside info or anything. I'm just speculating based on my
admittedly spotty knowledge. (Case in point: Shockwave actually *was* sold in
Japan. When I wrote that post, I was mistakenly referring to my list of toys
that weren't released for the European market. Sorry for the mix-up. You have
to admit that my afterthought-theory about the reasons behind Shockwave serving
as Guardian of Cybertron did fit rather nicely, though.)
Anyway, with regards to Omega Supreme... Takara's reissues don't seem to be
strictly governed by what was available in the Japanese market in the 1980's.
After all, they did reissue versions of Ironhide and Ratchet, and neither of
them was ever sold at retail over there. (Ratchet was offered as a mail-order
toy, though.) Omega Supreme's a significant character in the G1 mythos,
appearing in a dozen-odd episodes in which he was featued very prominently.
Also, Takara apparently thought he'd made a significant enough contribution to
the mythos that they made a PVC in his likeness.
Besides, Omega Supreme is a neat toy. A bit unconventional, to be sure, in
that you don't so much transform him as you dismantle him into a Trans-Skelton
and build something else around him, but just because he was conceptually a
Built to Rule prototype doesn't mean he's not a lot of fun. I mean, he rolls
around on a train track! The Japanese get a kick out of stuff like that!
Plus, he walks! How cool is that?
>I thought Takara didn't have the rights to or have lost the molds to
>most of the merge groups.
There's no reason why Takara would have ever lost the rights to producing any
of their own molds. That's a ridiculous rumor that needs to be squashed
quickly.
The only Transformers brand toys Takara doesn't have the rights to produce are
the ones that Hasbro licensed through other manufacturers other than Takara.
Hasbro didn't always go to Takara when they needed cool transforming robot
designs. They occasionally solicited toys from Bandai, who let them use the
molds which became Jetfire and Roadbuster and Whirl and the Deluxe Insecticons.
Takara never sold those toys as Transformers because they had nothing to do
with the manufacturing process. For Hasbro to reissue those toys, they would
have to once again approach Bandai and set up some kind of renewed licensing
arrangement.
>Also, I don't really understand why Trypticon and Metroplex would be reissued.
They never
>were the *hottest* sell if I remember right.
They're big, they're memorable, and they were the first city/base Transformers.
They probably have enough nostalgic pull to get reissued one of these days. I
don't see it as a foregone conclusion, but it's definitely a possibility.
(Besides, they would pave the way for Scramble City reissues, which I actually
*do* see as a strong probability. And once Takara and Hasbro do one final
production run for the Combaticons in their original G1 colors, I will be very
pleased to see them retire those molds forever and ever and ever.)
Denyer
> There you go again assuming. I've congratulated MANY a fan for finding
> something new to add to their collection.
I never accused you of otherwise. I said some people I know don't take
consideration of how there being more owners of a product (or similar
product) they own might affect their own prestige into account when
doing so.
eg, Say I have an RiD Scourge. I don't care if everyone else also has
an RiD Scourge. In fact, I'd like more people to have them, because a)
I think it's a great mould, and b) I can talk to people who have RiD
Scourges and like them, and their affirmation of my choice reinforces
my own sense of self-worth.
Conversely, you've said you don't like copies or versions of a product
being in circulation, because you're worried about an investment.
There's also the draw of exclusivity.
We both are desirous of praise, but I'd like to share the rewards
around.
> we're talking about the difference in a company *surviving*
> and a company just adding more to the pile of money. Takara had just
> about been done in. Hasbro had no such problem.
And I'm asking how that's relevant. It's bad for companies to release
products if they already have a profit margin? Takara have, for years,
released and re-released Tranformers products on the basis that
previous products sold, in some cases only because those sales gave
them the capital to do so.
> Excuse me, but now I think it's my turn to hurt myself laughing. What
> makes you the authority on how much things are worth? If it's your
> opinion, fine, say that. But to flat out say that a toy *isn't* worth
> hundreds of dollars, shows a little ignorance on your part.
If you can physically reproduce something (given the tools, and
irrespective of IP legalities), it isn't worth a value about the cost
of that. For example, many people produce reproduction TF parts,
driving down the otherwise obscene cost of things like Prime fists and
Starscream tail pieces.
> A toy, or
> anything else for that matter, is worth what a person is willing to pay
> for it.
That's worth *as declared by that person*, not worth in a monetary
sense applicable to others. If shop A is selling lots of product A for
cost A, and shop B is selling a few of product A for much more than
cost A, product A is worth cost A, in the sense that that value
operates in a community wider than one. Personal definitions and
personal estimations of worth are only themselves of value to an
individual; they intersect with a market, but don't define it with any
permanence. That lack of permanence is evidenced in the falling sales
of original products versus reissues, so is relevant to the
discussion.
> Once
> the hype dies down (another concept that I don't understand--a rare toy
> should always be worth something regardless of whether you saw ten other
> people express interest in it and now you want it too because they
> do--but I digress) the toy goes for a lot less in the market.
Why should it be worth me? I've yet to see justification for this
sentiment beyond than the statement being repeated.
> It's their money and should be allowed to spend as they see
> fit. Now were they perhaps 'unwise' about spending as much? Perhaps.
> But again, it's THEIR money, not mine.
This is where personal ideology is usually translated into assumed
expectation of fact. Should people be allowed to drop a grand for a
Grand (Max), as it were? You don't have the freedom to buy anything
you want; should you have the freedom to pay as much as you want, or
should some prices be capped? They already are by many suppliers;
companies feel that resellers hurt their product sales by setting
prices too high, and resellers demand the right to offer their
customers discounts.
Private sale is a little different, in addition to being practically
impossible to regulate. We can probably agree that people deserve the
legal right to fork out large sums of cash for moulded plastic,
however morally repugnant it may be when people are starving a short
distance away.
> > Open Source Software. Generally, only idiots need tech support lines.
>
> Teach me oh wise one. I notice you went for the zing and omitted the
> quote. Reason? Easier to ridicule and seeing as how I'm an idiot and
> all...maybe I'm touching a nerve?
No, advocating OSS for anyone with a brain who isn't in a business
situation in which they need a form of liability protection. Although
most EULAs effectively void any such promise of support in any case.
Managers just like to feel they can shout at and blame someone when
things go awry.
Point: the phrase "you get what you pay for" is hackneyed and hardly
as applicable as some would wish it to be. There are good cheap
products out there, and then there are Nike sweaters made in seconds
from poor-quality materials in sweat-shops and hawked for many times
their production cost.
This ties into TFs because some knockoffs have excellent production
values and don't cost much retail. There are even knockoffs with
extreme retooling into new toys, and knockoffs which include die-cast
parts. Tarring all knockoffs with one brush is inaccurate.
> Wrong. I'm going from personal experience.
So... buy the better quality ones if you're going to buy knockoffs.
The rest of the packaging is usually a fair indication of quality, if
you can't see what you purchase loose before hand.
> I don't think I've ever met a six year old "collector" but I'm sure I
> could be wrong. So since you seem determined to prod me until I give
> you my personal definition of a "collector" here it is:
> [snip]
A collector is "a person who collects," and how they treat what they
collect has nothing to do with the noun. Goes back to my point about
appropriation of terms by people who want to be 'taken seriously' and
having 'mature pursuits'.
> Once again, you're asking a question I never posed
Correct. It's a question I'm posing. It broadens out into a discussion
of what's more important: treating Transformers as well-engineered
toys or viewing them to a greater extent as bartering chips. Placing
the onus on personal satisfaction or on trade value.
> Your whole argument is semantics and I can't help feeling I'm in an
> episode of "Politically Incorrect."
Not really... I do worry about the large number of people who can't
communicate what they mean through their first language and how much
what they communicate is rationalised as being their intention, but
that's a major digression.
Denyer,
www.tfarchive.com
Steve-o Stonebraker
> It's been stated that Takara no longer has the rights to some of those
> molds. Several boards have mentioned this.
What does "Several boards have mentioned this" mean? The boards
themselves don't say anything, only people on them. Are you talking about
news postings on their front pages, or things that individual users have
said in discussion areas? Which users are you referring to? Some people
know what they're talking about, others are complete buffoons, and others
make stuff up. Orson's only comment about combiner teams was that some
number of them, which he never specified, were not presently doable,
whether that be because the molds were lost, destroyed, or simply in need
of repair.
The only way Takara could possibly "lose" rights to a mold they designed
and built would be to make a deal with another company in which they
explicitly signed away all rights to it. It can't happen by accident.
Bootlegs are completely irrelevant. There have been bootlegs of tons of
TFs, frequently including designs that were still on the market. These
knockoffs are produced illegally. So, you are making an extraordinary
claim, and unless you can do more than say "I read it on a board" it's
unlikely anyone is going to take it seriously.
--Steve-o
--
Steve Stonebraker | http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/
sst...@yahoo.com | Transformers, astrophysics, comics, games, cartoons.
Pyre
>
> For one, I think Orson alluded to it once. It's been mentioned on
> TF2005, the Allspark, Transfandom, etc. at one time or another.
>
I think you're misinterpreting what is being said. Some of those molds
are damaged and thus can't be used unless they're repaired, but that
doesn't mean that they don't have the rights to produce them should they
decide to do so.
Daniel Suh
> Besides, Omega Supreme is a neat toy. A bit unconventional, to be sure, in
> that you don't so much transform him as you dismantle him into a Trans-Skelton
> and build something else around him, but just because he was conceptually a
> Built to Rule prototype doesn't mean he's not a lot of fun. I mean, he rolls
> around on a train track! The Japanese get a kick out of stuff like that!
> Plus, he walks! How cool is that?
Also, he's got that nifty three-clawed hand. That was by far my favourite
feature about him as a kid.
> They're big, they're memorable, and they were the first city/base
> Transformers.
> They probably have enough nostalgic pull to get reissued one of these days. I
> don't see it as a foregone conclusion, but it's definitely a possibility.
I'd love to own a reissue Trypticon, but I'd hate see his price tag. He'd be
at least the same price as Unicron, if not greater.
> (Besides, they would pave the way for Scramble City reissues, which I actually
> *do* see as a strong probability.
I'd buy a reissue Technobots giftset regardless of their price tag.
And once Takara and Hasbro do one final
> production run for the Combaticons in their original G1 colors, I will be very
> pleased to see them retire those molds forever and ever and ever.)
NO. GODS NO. Six is more than enough.
And as I've stated on numerous occasions in the past, all I *truly* want
from the G1 Commemorative Series at this point are all five Dinobots. Like
with the Technobots, high prices wouldn't be an issue with them.
Susp, which is is good, since the Dinobots almost certainly would be more
expensive than the Autobot Cars/'Con Seekers.
"Me Grimlock, BADASS!"
Ethan Hammond
>
> I'd love to own a reissue Trypticon, but I'd hate see his price tag. He'd
be
> at least the same price as Unicron, if not greater.
You could always get the BWII version.