how does everyone feel about latest star trek movie erasing all history. would you be pissed off if this happened to transformers?
TigerMegatron
history. would you be pissed off if this happened to transformers?
Thankfully transformers is into all those alternate universe type
origin stories. where nothing previous gets messed with nor re-
writen.
how would everyone feel is hasbro/takara pulled a star trek & erased
some stuff in G-1 & Beastwars.
Shin Hibiki
>how does everyone feel about latest star trek movie erasing all
>history. would you be pissed off if this happened to transformers?
Since it would, arguably, erase all of Trek history, and that
would be unfathomable, I insist that it is a parallel universe of
sorts--and it was from the very beginning, even before various
characters started messing with the timeline. (That's the key point
to me.) The concept of other universes is established in the fiction,
as is time travel, and while it wasn't always treated consistently,
the latter in general did not produce the former.
>Thankfully transformers is into all those alternate universe type
>origin stories. where nothing previous gets messed with nor re-
>writen.
I appreciate the fact that various TF club stories have
acknowledged (and even actively pushed at times) this concept and
played around with it.
>how would everyone feel is hasbro/takara pulled a star trek & erased
>some stuff in G-1 & Beastwars.
Since my view is that it hasn't actually happened in either
case, I'm not too worried about it. I just want to see more stories
explicitly set in the G1 toonverse.
- Shin Hibiki (doesn't actually believe in parallel worlds, sadly)
Zobovor
> how does everyone feel about latest star trek movie erasing all
> history. would you be pissed off if this happened to transformers?
Uh, isn't this what they do to Transformers ALL THE TIME now?
Not having seen the latest Star Trek film, I am perhaps not qualified
to comment, but based on what I've read, it doesn't erase history any
more or less than any of the previous Star Trek stories dealing with
time travel. We've seen dozens of alternate realities in which events
from the Trek universe have unfolded differently—the only difference
is that it's an alternate reality that is being given the focus and
the narrative voice, a vehicle to reboot the series without the
writers getting bogged down in silly things like researching the
material they're writing for.
I find this disappointing because I have always pointed to Star Trek
as a shining example of a long-running series, or rather several
separate series, which manage to all take place within the same
continuity, respecting and alluding to what's come before while still
creating new characters and telling different stories. (I will say as
an aside that some of the shows did grow stale when relying on the
same old plot devices as crutches—hey, how about an episode where a
quantum singularity causes a transporter malfunction!—but that's an
artifact of an artificial storytelling limitation, not a result of
keeping the series in the same continuity.) My point, and I do have
one, is this—characters from the original Star Trek series existed in
the same universe with characters from The Next Generation and Deep
Space Nine and Voyager and Enterprise. Given the right circumstances,
they could all meet and interact with each other. Each new show
didn't instantly press the Magic Reset Button on what came before. (I
know some of you are already dredging up examples of continuity
gaffes. Go ahead, bring it on. You will be baked, and then there
will be cake.)
Every new Transformers series takes place in a separate continuity
from the last. How many times, now, have Transformers come to Earth
for the first time and met humans for the first time? This is the
sort of thing that should only happen once. You can't even rely on
alternate universes as some sci-fi jargony explanation, since that
implies an in-universe solution to the mess, that it could be undone
somehow with sufficiently advanced space-time manipulating technology—
that the characters of Transformers: Armada could visit the characters
of G1 or Animated the live-action movies. ("Turtles Forever," the
recent crossover story in which the Ninja Turtles from the 2003
cartoon meet the Ninja Turtles from the 1987 cartoon, is a prime
example of this.) None of the separate Transformers shows has ever
made any effort to demonstrate that they're all parts of a greater
whole—just that whatever you're watching is the current incarnation
and would you please disregard all those other characters named
Bumblebee or Starscream because they're not relevant to what's being
produced this season.
At least the Star Trek movie acknowledged that, yes, the original
Spock and his original timeline are still out there somewhere, just
that this alternate reality is what we're going to be paying attention
to for at least the next two movies. At least Turtles Forever
acknowledged the black-and-white comic book Turtles as the source of
Ninja Turtles in every other reality. Transformers doesn't do that.
It never has. They just hit the Magic Reset Button and ask you to
please ignore everything that you already know about the franchise
(you know, the reason you're a fan to begin with) so they can beat you
over the head with yet another story in which we meet this strange,
foreign robot from outer space called Optimus Prime.
Zob
TigerMegatron
The cybertron cartoon series had a episode where the cybertron
characters look into this energy sphere & see ther G-1 1980's
characters setting up the mission for the 5 planet keys. the cybertron
characters clearly see G-1 Optimus Prime,Hotrod & others. so that
right their would seem to indicate that the G-1 characters are long
dead & got replaced by the cybertron characters in the cybertron
cartoon series.
Beastwars was clearly a continuation of both G-1 & G-2.
Unicron,primus & the original 13 are all said to have special powers
that allow them to exist in all alternate universes/realities/
parallel's.
...Also Known As Thunder
>(doesn't actually believe in parallel worlds, sadly)
Your evil twin from the other universe said he didn't either... :)
t.k.
...Also Known As Thunder
> The cybertron cartoon series had a episode where the cybertron
> characters setting up the mission for the 5 planet keys. the cybertron
> right their would seem to indicate that the G-1 characters are long
> cartoon series.
It just doesn't work. At best, that's some kind of hommage/shout out to
the fans and that's it.
t.k.
Scott
stories were sufficiently different and yet still G1.
By the way, for an interesting takes on parallel worlds, watch Fringe or
Flash Forward. Good popcorn fun.
Scott
the Beast era seemed a different tone compared to G1's first two seasons. I
want to see what happens next and have no interest in prequels.
In a way, the tone had also altered in the post Japanese series. Those felt
so different that I have not placed them in the same continuity.
So far, I would say the following seems to be in their own bubble
universes:
G1: seasons 1-4 & movie.
Japanese: Headmasters, Masterforce & Victory.
Beast: Wars seasons 1-3 & machine.
RiD: as I did not watch enough to tell if it links to the previous Japanese
series.
AEC: Did they ever explain how all their Optimus Primes link to the one
true Optimus?
Live action movies.
Japanese toys continuity: Kiss players & Binaltech/Alternators seem to be
linked but the whole idea is too otaku.
Prime: Haven't seen enough yet to tell.
So time for a Crisis of Infinite Cybertrons, with apologies to DC Comics?
Velvet Glove
wrote:
> So far, I would say the following seems to be in their own bubble
> universes:
>
> G1: seasons 1-4 & movie.
>
> Japanese: Headmasters, Masterforce & Victory.
>
> Beast: Wars seasons 1-3 & machine.
<etc.>
I'm pretty much of Scott's view on this one. Beast Wars is in many
ways a far superior show to the G1 cartoon, but it has so many
inconsistencies and imports from the comic rather than the show that I
have never been able to view it as a sequel. Rather, it's an
alternative universe whose history shares many parallels with the G1
show universe (and comic universe). I haven't watched the Japanese
shows, but I know enough about them to know that they don't work
perfectly in line with the G1 cartoon universe either.
So for me, it doesn't matter what Transformers story happens next.
I've accepted that nobody's ever going to try to do a follow up to the
G1 cartoon, and am actually quite happy with that since I'd almost
certainly disapprove of the direction they took anyway! I'll just
leave it up to my imagination and that of good quality fanfic authors
around the web. Any other show that comes up, I'll dip into and see
if it's something I want to follow. Beast Wars was. Armada etc
weren't. Animated I stuck with, but probably wouldn't go back to.
I'll probably do the same with the movies, but only rewatch the
first. Prime is looking quite optimistic right now, but we'll
see.... And I'm not big on comics so that lets me off worrying about
those.
Velvet Glove (who was never much of a Star Trek fan anyway and thought
the new movie rather silly but fun enough to watch).
Shin Hibiki
>Your evil twin from the other universe said he didn't either... :)
Ah, but how do you know that *I'm* not the evil twin, and I'm
just saying things to throw you off my trail, hmm???
- Ikibih Nihs
Shin Hibiki
>By the way, for an interesting takes on parallel worlds, watch Fringe or
>Flash Forward. Good popcorn fun.
Liked FlashForward. Sad that it couldn't measure up to
network expectations. Highly suspect that The Event will meet the
same fate (and it's probably not even as good). Never started on
Fringe, so I probably won't now. Never watched Lost, either.
- Shin Hibiki (my dreams will have to suffice for my alternate worlds)
...Also Known As Thunder
> Ah, but how do you know that *I'm* not the evil twin, and I'm
> just saying things to throw you off my trail, hmm???
Damn! These alternate universe doubles are too smart for me... :)
t.k.
Craig Little
> "...Also Known As Thunder" <dece...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>Your evil twin from the other universe said he didn't either... :)
>
> Ah, but how do you know that *I'm* not the evil twin,
Duh. Goatee = Evil
--
Craig (Ask Spock)
Onslaught Six
> Every new Transformers series takes place in a separate continuity
> from the last. How many times, now, have Transformers come to Earth
> for the first time and met humans for the first time?
I would love it if somebody catalogued this. Every children's book,
every comic, every...*thing* included.
> This is the
> sort of thing that should only happen once. You can't even rely on
> alternate universes as some sci-fi jargony explanation, since that
> implies an in-universe solution to the mess, that it could be undone
> somehow with sufficiently advanced space-time manipulating technology—
> that the characters of Transformers: Armada could visit the characters
> of G1 or Animated the live-action movies. ("Turtles Forever," the
> recent crossover story in which the Ninja Turtles from the 2003
> cartoon meet the Ninja Turtles from the 1987 cartoon, is a prime
> example of this.) None of the separate Transformers shows has ever
> made any effort to demonstrate that they're all parts of a greater
> whole—just that whatever you're watching is the current incarnation
> and would you please disregard all those other characters named
> Bumblebee or Starscream because they're not relevant to what's being
> produced this season.
Hey! There was that time Galvy, Scourge, Thunderwing, Bludgeon and,
uh, Dirge showed up in Armada's comics. Because Furman was writing
them now and Furman wrote all those characters at prominent times.
(Except Dirge, why the hell was he there?)
I keep waiting for IDW's versions of those characters to disappear and
Armada Megatron, Starscream, Demolishor, Cyclonus and Thrust show up
in their place. That would delight me.
Anyway, doesn't this kind of thing happen with superheroes a lot, too?
Like, say, the recent Batman films. We already saw Batman's origin and
him fighting the Joker in Batman '89, right? So why do we need to see
it again in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight? The answer: Because it
was awesome.
Granted, Hasbro does this almost a little *too* much, but then look at
what Marvel's been doing lately--Spectacular Spider-Man had like two
seasons and now we'll probably get *another* reboot cartoon after the
next film (which is also a reboot!) happens.
> At least the Star Trek movie acknowledged that, yes, the original
> Spock and his original timeline are still out there somewhere, just
> that this alternate reality is what we're going to be paying attention
> to for at least the next two movies. At least Turtles Forever
> acknowledged the black-and-white comic book Turtles as the source of
> Ninja Turtles in every other reality. Transformers doesn't do that.
> It never has. They just hit the Magic Reset Button and ask you to
> please ignore everything that you already know about the franchise
> (you know, the reason you're a fan to begin with) so they can beat you
> over the head with yet another story in which we meet this strange,
> foreign robot from outer space called Optimus Prime.
It's just the nature of the stories. They'll get retold every so
often. Maybe Hasbro's been doing it way too much lately, but I'm
thinking Prime is the last one they intend to do for a long time.
But really. Remember the 90s X-Men series? Did that ask everyone to
forget what we know about X-Men, here, watch the Phoenix mess stuff up
again, like happened that one time in the comics? And then it probably
happened again in X-Men Evolution. And then the movies did it. And if
Wolverine And The X-Men (which was a dumb title but at least it made
sense--Wolverine was the leader of a reformed X-Men after Xavier is
thrown through time or something) had gone on long enough, it might
have gotten to that arc too.
Onslaught Six
<fujispamsonyspamjvcspaml...@nospamhere.com> wrote:
> RiD: as I did not watch enough to tell if it links to the previous Japanese
> series.
Spiritually, it totally is, but that's probably an argument for
another thread. While it takes place in a different universe, early
promotional materials kind of imply that Gigatron has dimension hopped
from the (at the time, only) main G1/BW universe and Fire Convoy and
co chase him down. And then Kiss Players kind of throws that all
together anyway (see below).
> AEC: Did they ever explain how all their Optimus Primes link to the one
> true Optimus?
They're all the same guy. Energon is clearly a sequel, it probably had
the best beginning of any TF series I've ever seen, and then quickly
descended to shit. Galaxy Force is...well, yeah.
> Japanese toys continuity: Kiss players & Binaltech/Alternators seem to be
> linked but the whole idea is too otaku.
Brave Maximus (Car Robots) ends up running through time and becoming
G1's Fortress Maximus through something or other. So that clearly
links CR to G1, anyway.
> Prime: Haven't seen enough yet to tell.
>
> So time for a Crisis of Infinite Cybertrons, with apologies to DC Comics?
Prime is that. Hasbro claims it leads off from War For Cybertron and
Exodus (which are basically different versions of the same thing) but
it clearly doesn't do so in any major way besides a few big sticking
points. That's not even bringing up the differences in art style and
character design.
Although I do have this theory that emerged when there was a drastic
shift in editing style with IDW's comics. I dunno if you've been
paying attention, but basically anybody is allowed to draw the TFs
however they want now, and Don Fig wants to draw the G1 TFs like Movie
TFs. This means that guys look entirely different depending on who's
drawing them, but it's all in continuity.
So here's my idea: The media, whether it be cartoon, comic, live-
action film, video game, toys, or colouring books, are a window. A
temporary glimpse into the larger universe. And this window is tinted
with whatever artistic vision the artist/etc. has given it. The guys
in Prime? They don't "really" look like that, they just look like that
when you view them through the window of the Prime cartoon. What do
they "really" look like? ....I dunno, whatever you want.
It's like, when I think Optimus Prime, I don't *directly* think of the
cartoon character model--because when I think Optimus Prime, he has
wheels on his hips and his legs, and big oil tanks, and holes in his
forearms. But his head is the cartoon head, except with yellow eyes.
See what I mean? In my head, Prime's a merging of the toy and cartoon/
comic details. But no piece of media has ever really shown him exactly
as I think of him. (Except that one drawing Guido Guidi did. The one
on Prime's TFWiki page.)
Kishin
> Granted, Hasbro does this almost a little *too* much, but then look at
> what Marvel's been doing lately--Spectacular Spider-Man had like two
> seasons and now we'll probably get *another* reboot cartoon after the
> next film (which is also a reboot!) happens.
"Spectacular Spider-Man" was great. I was sad that it only lasted for 2
seasons. Next up is an Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, next fall:
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/bleedthefreak/news/?a=27232
No doubt it will feature the comic's reboot of the whole series.
--
Kishin
Zobovor
> Anyway, doesn't this kind of thing happen with superheroes a lot, too?
> Like, say, the recent Batman films. We already saw Batman's origin and
> him fighting the Joker in Batman '89, right? So why do we need to see
> it again in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight?
I asked myself that same question when the newer Batman movies came
out, but then I realized that the Jack Nicholson version of the Joker
was 20 years ago. That's literally a lifetime ago for probably most
of the people who went to see the Heath Ledger version in theaters, so
I can reluctantly accept that a reboot was probably the best way to
draw in a modern audience. Of course, I really don't have that much
emotionally invested in Batman, either, so it didn't bother me as much
as it does with Transformers.
Zob
Gustavo Wombat
They are also radically different interpretations of the characters.
We haven't had the dark and gritty Batman's origin retold a dozen
times.
But, different incarnations of Transformers are not really all that
different, so the different versions of the stories are really not all
that different either.
Gustavo!
Chad Rushing
>
> But, different incarnations of Transformers are not really all that
> different, so the different versions of the stories are really not all
> that different either.
I just want one version of the Transformers fiction in which the
Autobot / Maximal / good guy faction leader does not die and then come
back to life at an extremely opportune moment. Is that too much to
ask? That was one cliché I eventually loathed in super-hero comic
books.
Also, as much of a G1 junkie I am, it is nice to see totally new
characters with new (or preexisting yet obscure) names introduced as
core team members. On a related note, having Ultra Magnus be the head
Autobot in ANIMATED rather than Optimus Prime was very refreshing.
- Chad
Scott
> On Dec 31 2010, 6:32 am, Scott
> <fujispamsonyspamjvcspaml...@nospamhere.com> wrote:
>
>> RiD: as I did not watch enough to tell if it links to the previous Japanese
>> series.
>
> Spiritually, it totally is, but that's probably an argument for
> another thread. While it takes place in a different universe, early
> promotional materials kind of imply that Gigatron has dimension hopped
> from the (at the time, only) main G1/BW universe and Fire Convoy and
> co chase him down. And then Kiss Players kind of throws that all
> together anyway (see below).
>
>> AEC: Did they ever explain how all their Optimus Primes link to the one
>> true Optimus?
>
> They're all the same guy. Energon is clearly a sequel, it probably had
> the best beginning of any TF series I've ever seen, and then quickly
> descended to shit. Galaxy Force is...well, yeah.
>
>> Japanese toys continuity: Kiss players & Binaltech/Alternators seem to be
>> linked but the whole idea is too otaku.
>
> Brave Maximus (Car Robots) ends up running through time and becoming
> G1's Fortress Maximus through something or other. So that clearly
> links CR to G1, anyway.
Wasn't Brave Maximus Fortress Maximus' brother?
That is the best theory yet. In other words the Transformers we see are
actually an interpretation of their sparks. We see Optimus Prime in G1 as a
truck, in Beast Wars as a gorilla. Cool. Now can someone redraw the post G1
stories in G1 design?
Gustavo Wombat
> On Jan 4, 11:49 pm, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > But, different incarnations of Transformers are not really all that
> > different, so the different versions of the stories are really not all
> > that different either.
>
> I just want one version of the Transformers fiction in which the
> Autobot / Maximal / good guy faction leader does not die and then come
> back to life at an extremely opportune moment. Is that too much to
> ask? That was one cliché I eventually loathed in super-hero comic
> books.
But, Optimus is Jesus!
I just wish more of the cast would be "killed" and then rebuilt and
started up again. Makes them more like machines, and less like humans.
And recycle parts. Shouldn't Starscream have killed Skywarp and stolen
his power chip rectifier at some point?
> Also, as much of a G1 junkie I am, it is nice to see totally new
> characters with new (or preexisting yet obscure) names introduced as
> core team members. On a related note, having Ultra Magnus be the head
> Autobot in ANIMATED rather than Optimus Prime was very refreshing.
My favorite thing about that was they kept a lot of the mildly
discouraging elements of Ultra Magnus's character in Animated, despite
the new role. I will never tire of pressing the button on the toy that
makes him say "Don't be a hero, Optimus, it's not in your
programming." -- ok, that particular quote is a bit over the top.
Chad Rushing
>
> But, Optimus is Jesus!
Don't forget Neo from THE MATRIX and Superman in his most recent movie
both imitating a messianic death/resurrection of sorts. It has gotten
to the point where I do not take the deaths of any fictional
characters at face value, especially leading characters.
> I just wish more of the cast would be "killed" and then rebuilt and
> started up again. Makes them more like machines, and less like humans.
> And recycle parts. Shouldn't Starscream have killed Skywarp and stolen
> his power chip rectifier at some point?
Perhaps, each Transformer is only capable of using one power chip
rectifier at a time. After all, the powers of the other Decepticons
were only temporarily transferred to Megatron in G1. Didn't the
Marvel comic book series treat the Transformers much more like
machines with many of them being taken apart and put back together
again later?
> My favorite thing about that was they kept a lot of the mildly
> discouraging elements of Ultra Magnus's character in Animated, despite
> the new role. I will never tire of pressing the button on the toy that
> makes him say "Don't be a hero, Optimus, it's not in your
> programming." -- ok, that particular quote is a bit over the top.
That must be the most disheartening quote ever used for a toy! We
need a Megatron toy that says something like, "You pathetic fool!"
- Chad
Uriel Ventris
To me, it seems that each and every series of Transformers has been in
its own pocket dimension. G1 cartoons, G1 (and G2) comics, Beast Wars
(and Machines), RiD, Victory, Masterforce, Beast Wars Neo, Animated,
Prime, Bayverse, AEC, Hearts of Steel, Dreamwave G1, Dreamwave War
Within, Dreamwave AE, IDW G1... even the ones that are in the same
universe only call back to the previous series without actually
building up on it (and often ignoring character development from the
previous series).
For Star Trek, canon was God. Every series was related to the last,
and (I suspect) the large number of rabid Trekkies ensured that
contradictions were minimal, or were easily explained away.
So yeah, having a complete reset on Transformers happens every time we
get a new series. We're used to it. Having said that however...
I'd be perfectly happy with a new Transformers that /didn't/ have an
Optimus Prime, Megatron, Galvatron, Bumblebee, Cheetor, Hot Shot,
Jetfire, Starscream, Witwicky, Earth, Cybertron, etc. etc. An all new
cast, on a whole new world, leading with just the premise:
Transforming robots fighting a civil war across the galaxy.
Scott
the other two series in the Unicron trilogy.
Onslaught Six
wrote:
> That is the best theory yet. In other words the Transformers we see are
> actually an interpretation of their sparks. We see Optimus Prime in G1 as a
> truck, in Beast Wars as a gorilla. Cool. Now can someone redraw the post G1
> stories in G1 design?
No, it doesn't work like that. Optimus Primal is not Optimus Prime. We
never see Optimus Prime as a gorilla. They're different guys with
similar names.
Otherwise, when Primal goes down into the Ark, he'd be looking at
'himself,' which he clearly isn't doing.
Onslaught Six
wrote:
> Wouldn't that be Galaxy Force? I thought it was not originally connected to
> the other two series in the Unicron trilogy.
It was and it wasn't. Hasbro wanted it to be, and Takara didn't, so we
got this weird hybrid series that didn't work where characters from
Armada and Energon were there, and implied to be the same characters,
but everyone on Earth forgot Transformers existed and they all acted
like they didn't know each other.
At one point, Optimus Prime combines with Wingsaber (who may or may
not be the same guy who combined with Prime in Energon) and Prime says
something like, "Wow! I've never combined with another Transformer
before, this is amazing!"
Yep. Never combined with anyone before. Except for Jetfire. And
Wingsaber. And Omega Supreme. And Leader-1. (Was that his name? Ah, it
doesn't matter, every Minicon was named Leader-1.)
Hasbro tried to explain away that the black hole in Cybertron (which
only exists because it's an implosion of Unicron or something stupid
like that) was altering the past or something like that, which
explains why characters forgot things that happened or acted like they
hadn't just had characterisation through two series (Hot Shot is back
to being a complete idiot when Cybertron comes around) but nobody was
buying.
Also, that series had an Optimus Prime, a Megatron, a Cybertron, the
first Transformers visit to Earth, Galvatron, Jetfire, Hot Shot,
Starscream, and an arguable Witwicky.
Chad Rushing
>
> It was and it wasn't. Hasbro wanted it to be, and Takara didn't, so we
> got this weird hybrid series that didn't work where characters from
> Armada and Energon were there, and implied to be the same characters,
> but everyone on Earth forgot Transformers existed and they all acted
> like they didn't know each other.
It is worth mentioning that characters like Jetfire, Hot Shot, and
others in CYBERTRON were completely different characters in GALAXY
FORCE with different names, since the latter was considered an
entirely new story in Japan. I think that even Optimus Prime was a
different character in GF ("Galaxy Convoy") than he was in the earlier
series. Also, CYB has cameos of the human characters from the earlier
series at the end (ex. Rad from ARMADA), but I think those characters
were omitted from the ending of GF, so even the animation differed a
bit.
> Hasbro tried to explain away that the black hole in Cybertron (which
> only exists because it's an implosion of Unicron or something stupid
> like that) was altering the past or something like that, which
> explains why characters forgot things that happened or acted like they
> hadn't just had characterisation through two series (Hot Shot is back
> to being a complete idiot when Cybertron comes around) but nobody was
> buying.
Honestly, I watched GF subtitled before I watched dubbed CYB, and the
former made much more sense storywise, since it did not even pretend
to be a continuation of the earlier shows. If I had been a kid
watching CYB after ARM and ENR, I would have been very confused by all
of the continuity conflicts.
- Chad
SteveD
wrote:
>I just want one version of the Transformers fiction in which the
>Autobot / Maximal / good guy faction leader does not die and then come
>back to life at an extremely opportune moment.
How about one where the leader dies messily via Decepticon attack in the
first episode, thrusting Optimus into an unexpected leadership position on
the eve of the Next Great War?
It would even be possible to have said leader resurrected at some point in
the second or third season, _not_ take leadership back, and go on to
become a combination ambassador and Autobot-allied one-bot badass?
-SteveD
TigerMegatron
The Cybertron toys were clearly in the same universe as the armada &
energon toys. because similar characters were in all 3 series. similar
alt modes used for those similar characters in AEC. Cybertron Megatron
took the destroyed pieces of unicron in energon & rebuilt his megatron
body.
As far as the cartoon universe goes. AEC seems like it was always
meant to be in the same universe. but at the last minute takara
rewrote the cartoon universe story. the black hole in the cybertron/
GF cartoon was the result of a planet named unicron getting destroyed
in the energon/super link cartoon. Planet X in cybertron was Unicron.
sideways was a agent/servant of unicron in armada. since sideways came
from planet X/U
TigerMegatron
>
> - Show quoted text -
Damn reply button got hit while I was still typing. so here's more of
what I was trying to say.
The Cybertron toys were clearly in the same universe as the armada &
energon toys. because similar characters were in all 3 series.
similar
alt modes used for those similar characters in AEC. Cybertron
Megatron
took the destroyed pieces of unicron in energon & rebuilt his
megatron
body.
As far as the cartoon universe goes. AEC seems like it was always
meant to be in the same universe. but at the last minute takara
rewrote the cartoon universe story. the black hole in the cybertron/
GF cartoon was the result of a planet named unicron getting destroyed
in the energon/super link cartoon. Planet X in cybertron was Unicron.
sideways was a agent/servant of unicron in armada. since sideways
came
from planet X/unicron in cybertron/GF it seemed like a continuation &
in the same AEC universe.
Usually when another TF toy line Cartoon series starts. they don't use
the same exact core characters & casual characters in the toy line &
cartoon series. AEC clearly used the same exact characters in both the
toy line & cartoon series.
IMHO,at best Cybertron/Galaxy force can be considered a reboot of
armada & energon. or a alternate universe of armada & energon using
the same exact characters & similar alt modes in the cartoon/toy line.
Similar to what DW & IDW does with the 1980's G-1 TF characters.
I honestly think it's a bit harsh to consider Cybertron/Galaxy force
as a completly seperate entity & brand new,in it's own universe.
Shin Hibiki
>It was and it wasn't. Hasbro wanted it to be, and Takara didn't, so we
>got this weird hybrid series that didn't work where characters from
>Armada and Energon were there, and implied to be the same characters,
>but everyone on Earth forgot Transformers existed and they all acted
>like they didn't know each other.
Apparently Japan eventually retconned/shoehorned Galaxy Force
into the same continuity as well. Go here,
http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/wottf.html
and click on Episode 8 ("Dimention [sic] Guide"). The red circle in
the center is Transformers G1. A bit to the right of that is a
lavender circle, Micron Densetsu (Armada). (It's not connected to G1;
I'm just providing a map for those who can't read kana.) To the right
of that, connected, is a lavender rectangle for Super Link (Energon).
To the right, again connected, is yet another lavender rectangle,
Galaxy Force (Cybertron). The colors and connections suggest a
substantially unified continuity.
- Shin Hibiki
Scott
leader's gang. That could mix things up. There are still so many themes
unexplored by the Transformers.
SteveD
<fujispamsonys...@nospamhere.com> wrote:
>SteveD <use...@vo.id.au> wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 22:54:18 -0800 (PST), Chad Rushing <not...@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I just want one version of the Transformers fiction in which the
>>> Autobot / Maximal / good guy faction leader does not die and then come
>>> back to life at an extremely opportune moment.
>>
>> How about one where the leader dies messily via Decepticon attack in the
>> first episode, thrusting Optimus into an unexpected leadership position on
>> the eve of the Next Great War?
>>
>> It would even be possible to have said leader resurrected at some point in
>> the second or third season, _not_ take leadership back, and go on to
>> become a combination ambassador and Autobot-allied one-bot badass?
>It could lead to a civil war among the Optimus belivers and the resurrected
>leader's gang. That could mix things up. There are still so many themes
>unexplored by the Transformers.
It'd also put Optimus in a similar position to S3 Rodimus, being the
newbie taking over from a revered figure - who then returns. Even with the
former leader's blessing, a freshly-promoted Optimus could well run into
problems with sub-groups trying to reinstate an older Prime.
Interesting point: What if it's an Ultra Magnus, similar to the Animated
version? And what if they end up being able to merge RiD-style for the
final showdown? Neo-Magnus here could also take a leaf from the Rid-Magnus
book of showing up unannounced to kick ass and take names in battles, then
disappearing again.
-SteveD
Ka Faraq Gatri
<not...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Jan 4, 11:49 pm, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I just want one version of the Transformers fiction in which the
>Autobot / Maximal / good guy faction leader does not die and then come
>back to life at an extremely opportune moment. Is that too much to
>ask? That was one cliché I eventually loathed in super-hero comic
>books.
>
That would be RiD. Prime/Fire Convoy never bought it in that series.
Of course, if the Japanese had originally intended the character to be
Optimus Prime/Convoy instead of _Fire_ Convoy, they might have killed
him for a few episodes.
"Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically . . . run." - the 11th Doctor, "The Eleventh Hour"
Gustavo Wombat
> On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 07:55:34 +0000 (UTC), Scott
>
>
>
>
>
> <fujispamsonyspamjvcspaml...@nospamhere.com> wrote:
> >SteveD <use...@vo.id.au> wrote:
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> I just want one version of the Transformers fiction in which the
> >>> Autobot / Maximal / good guy faction leader does not die and then come
> >>> back to life at an extremely opportune moment.
>
> >> How about one where the leader dies messily via Decepticon attack in the
> >> first episode, thrusting Optimus into an unexpected leadership position on
> >> the eve of the Next Great War?
>
> >> It would even be possible to have said leader resurrected at some point in
> >> the second or third season, _not_ take leadership back, and go on to
> >> become a combination ambassador and Autobot-allied one-bot badass?
> >It could lead to a civil war among the Optimus belivers and the resurrected
> >leader's gang. That could mix things up. There are still so many themes
> >unexplored by the Transformers.
>
> It'd also put Optimus in a similar position to S3 Rodimus, being the
> newbie taking over from a revered figure - who then returns. Even with the
> former leader's blessing, a freshly-promoted Optimus could well run into
> problems with sub-groups trying to reinstate an older Prime.
I'd have Optimus be a courier, bringing the Matrix of Leadership from
its previous holder, who was killed off world, to the new chosen
leader on Cybertron. Waylaid by Decepticons, crashed on Earth, 3.4
million years pass, no sign of Cybertron existing at all, and then
forced by circumstances to take the mantle.
And then they rediscover Cybertron.
> Interesting point: What if it's an Ultra Magnus, similar to the Animated
> version? And what if they end up being able to merge RiD-style for the
> final showdown?
What if Magnus required all Primes to be able to transform into battle
armor for him?
Chad Rushing
>
> That would be RiD. Prime/Fire Convoy never bought it in that series.
> Of course, if the Japanese had originally intended the character to be
> Optimus Prime/Convoy instead of _Fire_ Convoy, they might have killed
> him for a few episodes.
You know, RID is the only TF series aired in the USA that I have never
watched. I caught an episode or two when it was on TV, but that was
during the brief period when I wasn't keeping up with the TF franchise
at all. I have always hoped it would eventually make it to R1 DVD,
but it does not seem too likely now ...
- Chad
Scott
Died and resurrected:
G1:
Orion Pax defeated by Megatron
-rebuilt by Alpha Trion into->
Optimus Prime killed by Megatron
-resurrected by Quintessons->
Optimus Prime killed in explosion
-resurrected by a Quintesson and Sky Lynx->
Later turned into Powermaster Optimus Prime (did he die here?)
Headmasters:
Optimus Prime killed by Galvatron.
Live action movies:
Optimus Prime killed by Megatron
-resurrected by Sam->
Never died:
Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Robots in Disguise, Unicron Trilogy, Animated
Scott
With a twist, Gustavo, Optimus might refuse to relinquish both command and
the Matrix, leading to the decimation of the Autobots by their evolved
breathen, the Maximals, thus setting the stage for the Beast Wars.
Zobovor
wrote:
> Never died:
> Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Robots in Disguise, Unicron Trilogy, Animated
On Beast Wars, Optimus Primal was destroyed at the end of the first
season. He was brought back as a Transmetal after a couple of
episodes.
In Beast Machines, Optimus Primal died in the final episode.
I read somewhere that Optimus Prime died in Animated for about 12
seconds.
Zob
TigerMegatron
Had Transtech been given the green light BM Optimus Primal would have
made a come back in the Transtech cartoon/toy line.
Even though "universe" had no cartoon media outlet. according to the
universe toy package stories & bios. Primus brought optimus primal
back from the dead to fight unicron.
TigerMegatron
wrote:
> Which Omptimus Primes had not died?
>
> Died and resurrected:
> G1:
> Orion Pax defeated by Megatron
> -rebuilt by Alpha Trion into->
> Optimus Prime killed by Megatron
> -resurrected by Quintessons->
> Optimus Prime killed in explosion
> -resurrected by a Quintesson and Sky Lynx->
> Later turned into Powermaster Optimus Prime (did he die here?)
>
> Headmasters:
> Optimus Prime killed by Galvatron.
>
> Live action movies:
> Optimus Prime killed by Megatron
> -resurrected by Sam->
>
> Never died:
> Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Robots in Disguise, Unicron Trilogy, Animated
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 22:54:18 -0800 (PST), Chad Rushing
> > <notu...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Jan 4, 11:49 pm, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> I just want one version of the Transformers fiction in which the
> >> Autobot / Maximal / good guy faction leader does not die and then come
> >> back to life at an extremely opportune moment. Is that too much to
> >> ask? That was one cliché I eventually loathed in super-hero comic
> >> books.
>
> > That would be RiD. Prime/Fire Convoy never bought it in that series.
> > Of course, if the Japanese had originally intended the character to be
> > Optimus Prime/Convoy instead of _Fire_ Convoy, they might have killed
> > him for a few episodes.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
In the Japanese Headmasters cartoon series. Convoy/optimus Prime died
because he was trying to shield vector sigma from the bombs explosions
that a few decepticons planted on him. Galvatron didn't kill convoy/
optimus prime. as he had no bombs in his hand & didn't plant any on or
near vector prime.
Craig Little
> Which Omptimus Primes had not died?
>
> Died and resurrected:
> G1:
> Orion Pax defeated by Megatron
> -rebuilt by Alpha Trion into->
> Optimus Prime killed by Megatron
> -resurrected by Quintessons->
> Optimus Prime killed in explosion
> -resurrected by a Quintesson and Sky Lynx-> Later turned into
> Powermaster Optimus Prime (did he die here?)
>
> Headmasters:
> Optimus Prime killed by Galvatron.
>
> Live action movies:
> Optimus Prime killed by Megatron
> -resurrected by Sam->
>
>
> Never died:
> Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Robots in Disguise, Unicron Trilogy,
> Animated
>
>
Beast Wars Optimus Primal dies at the end of "Other Voices, part 2" and
is resurrected in "Coming of the Fuzors, part 2" and perhaps more in
Beast Wars (I'm watching it for the first time, and am only up to
"Maximal, No More") and he definitely dies at the end of "Endgame" in
Beast Machines. RiD Prime does, indeed not die. As for the Unicron
Trilogy, that particular Optimus dies in the Armada episode "Crisis"
before being revived in the Armada episode "Miracle"
--
Craig (And let's not get started on comics)
Craig Little
There are morally dubious ways to acquire it if you know where to look...
--
Craig ()
Uriel Ventris
> On Jan 6, 9:14 pm, Scott <fujispamsonyspamjvcspaml...@nospamhere.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Never died:
> > Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Robots in Disguise, Unicron Trilogy, Animated
>
> On Beast Wars, Optimus Primal was destroyed at the end of the first
> season. He was brought back as a Transmetal after a couple of
> episodes.
Not only that, Optimus Prime's spark nearly failed near the end of
"The Agenda" when he's shot by Megatron. I think that counts anyway.
> In Beast Machines, Optimus Primal died in the final episode.
>
> I read somewhere that Optimus Prime died in Animated for about 12
> seconds.
Part 3 of "Transform and Roll Out". First episode. Remember? We were
all talking about how they were killing off Optimii earlier and
earlier and for shorter periods of time.
...Also Known As Thunder
> Gustavo Wombat<Gustav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I'd have Optimus be a courier, bringing the Matrix of Leadership from
>> its previous holder, who was killed off world, to the new chosen
>> leader on Cybertron. Waylaid by Decepticons, crashed on Earth, 3.4
>> million years pass, no sign of Cybertron existing at all, and then
>> forced by circumstances to take the mantle.
>>
>> And then they rediscover Cybertron.
>
> With a twist, Gustavo, Optimus might refuse to relinquish both command and
> the Matrix, leading to the decimation of the Autobots by their evolved
> breathen, the Maximals, thus setting the stage for the Beast Wars.
I like Gustavo's idea but would rather not have it mix in with Beast
Wars necessarily.
t.k.
Chad Rushing
>
> There are morally dubious ways to acquire it if you know where to look...
I am certain that there are, but I generally try to avoid such morally
dubious avenues of entertainment when possible. Maybe, I could hunt
down a R2 version and buy a cheap, region-free DVD player on which to
watch it.
On a related note, I remember a cashier at Best Buy -- an actual
employee there -- once asking me why I was buying so many DVDs and CDs
when I could download everything for "free" on the Internet. :-\
- Chad
Chad Rushing
wrote:
>
> Part 3 of "Transform and Roll Out". First episode. Remember? We were
> all talking about how they were killing off Optimii earlier and
> earlier and for shorter periods of time.
Eventually, the writers of TF shows will grow so impatient that they
will kill and resurrect Optimus Prime between the opening credits and
first commercial break of the very first episode of a new series. It
was funny to see how many of my non-fan friends were -shocked- by the
events of the second movie regarding Optimus while I just rolled my
eyes.
- Chad
Uriel Ventris
But they didn't kill off Optimus in the new show. Though they did kill
off Cliffjumper for real and completely in the pilot of the new
show... probably before the first commercial break, though I'm a bit
hazy on the timing.
Scott
that they modeled G1 Optimus Prime in 3-D.
Ka Faraq Gatri
You should track it down. After the doom & gloom of Beast Machines, I
loved the silly fun provided by RiD. It doesn't take itself seriously
(so you shouldn't either) but it has fun characters and a decent
storyline (far better than Energon or the Bayverse at any rate.) I'd
rank it as my third favorite series after Beast Wars and Animated.
Ka Faraq Gatri
<fujispamsonys...@nospamhere.com> wrote:
>Which Omptimus Primes had not died?
>
>Died and resurrected:
>G1:
>Orion Pax defeated by Megatron
>-rebuilt by Alpha Trion into->
>Optimus Prime killed by Megatron
>-resurrected by Quintessons->
>Optimus Prime killed in explosion
>-resurrected by a Quintesson and Sky Lynx->
>Later turned into Powermaster Optimus Prime (did he die here?)
Apart from the "S4" framing sequenences with Tommy Kennedy, he never
appeared in any cartoon as a Powermaster. Ginrai, who used the PMOP
mold, appeared in Masterforce. But he's not Optimus Prime, just a
lookalike (despite what the dub might say!). Ginrai dies, and is
rebuilt into Victory Leo, in Transformers: Victory.
>
>Headmasters:
>Optimus Prime killed by Galvatron.
Nope, he sacrificed himself to repower Vector Sigma (and this is still
G1 Prime). He was later brought back again as Star Convoy.
And in the comics he died because he compromised his values in a video
game. His mind was saved on a 5.25 in floppy disk. :-D This data was
input into PMOP, and in this form he later died using the Matrix to
destroy Unicron. His mind survived in the form of Hi-Q, and a new
(Action Master) Optimus body was built around Hi-Q. He then (at the
end of G2) gave himself over to the swarm so they'd gain a conscience
from absorbing the Matrix. They promptly rebuilt him afterward (into
his Hero toy body)
And if he died in the neoG1 comics, someone else will have to fill
that in - I don't read them. This is just his many deaths in the two
Marvel series!
>
>Live action movies:
>Optimus Prime killed by Megatron
>-resurrected by Sam->
>
>
>Never died:
>Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Robots in Disguise, Unicron Trilogy, Animated
BW/BM Primal died three times. He came back twice in the shows and
once in the Botcon/OTFCC comics (which take place after BM). But he
isn't an Optimus Prime - this is the distant future of G1, and
Primal isn't the same guy. Primal claims G1 Prime as an ancestor in
BM, but I wouldn't trust that - he's pretty messed up in the head in
that series, courtesy of the Oracle. But he's still a different
character, rather than an upgraded Prime
UT Prime died stopping the Decepticons from testing the Hydra Cannon
on Earth, and was rebuilt by the minicons a few episodes later.
Animated Prime died preventing Starscream from getting the Allspark in
the premiere. Sari brought him back with her Allspark key 93 seconds
later.
Velvet Glove
wrote:
> Part 3 of "Transform and Roll Out". First episode. Remember? We were
> all talking about how they were killing off Optimii earlier and
> earlier and for shorter periods of time.
Pet peeve: if it were plural, it would be 'Optimi', one i. 'Optimii'
is the plural of 'Optimius'.
Regarding the regions of DVDs, aren't computer DVD drives region
free? Or is that just my husband doing his magic on my machine
again? Failing that, are there any legal download sources anywhere?
Velvet Glove (who thinks everybody should own a region free DVD player
anyway)
TigerMegatron
Velvet,Yes you are correct most DVD's in computers are region free. I
bought & played the UK Rid DVD complete set in my computer & those
Japanese TF G-1 ultimate collection in my computer DVD.
Also as noted here & elsewhere,there are plenty of cheap brand/priced
smaller portable DVD players that are region free.
Colby is a region free small DVD player that plays UK & Japanese DVD's.
Scott
region free. However, some claim that DVDs with RCE cannot be used on such.
I have not come across any that my unlocked player cannot play.
SteveD
<davidcon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Ginrai dies, and is rebuilt into Victory Leo, in Transformers: Victory.
Not, of course, the original human Ginrai (remember when Hi-Q became the
core of the new Optimus Prime?). It's his previously-mindless transtector,
upgraded with sentience at the end of _Masterforce_, who names itself
after him and gets rebuilt.
Original-Ginrai is probably still bumming around on Earth somewhere,
depending on how much time has passed.
-SteveD
Ka Faraq Gatri
Very true. I just abbreviated it since this was mainly about Optimus
Prime, and my post was long enough already.
TigerMegatron
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 12:18:07 -0500, Ka Faraq Gatri
>
> >Ginrai dies, and is rebuilt into Victory Leo, in Transformers: Victory.
>
> Not, of course, the original human Ginrai (remember when Hi-Q became the
> core of the new Optimus Prime?). It's his previously-mindless transtector,
> upgraded with sentience at the end of _Masterforce_, who names itself
> after him and gets rebuilt.
>
> Original-Ginrai is probably still bumming around on Earth somewhere,
> depending on how much time has passed.
>
> -SteveD
headmasters,masteforce,victory,zone,battlestars & operation
combination all took place in the distant future.
Masterforce is believed to have taken place around the year 2015. so
technicially that human named Ginrai hasn't even started his
transformers mission yet. ginrai still has about 4 years to start his
TF mission around yet.
Scott
could change his name and become a trucker. The world will be more
interesting in four years time.