Armada - Machine Beast Car Robot Wars in Disguise
Skyflight
outline of the cartoon seems to be circulating. So, what exactly do we have?
So far as I can determine, a hodge-podge of former ideas, all of them bad.
Start with Machine Wars, where past names are slapped on toys with no regard
for whether the alt mode or tech spec matches the character. Then blend
Beast Wars and RiD together in a seperate bowl to come up with the great
idea of using Optimus Prime and Megatron as the two leader characters,
perhaps with or without an explanation of where they came from. Pointedly
ignore any concerns about the dilution of what made the original characters
special in the first place. TRUK NOT MUNKY will sell toys because obviously
Prime and Megatron are pieces of property to be milked for every nickel that
can be squeezed instead of cornerstones of a mythology who are special exactly
because they're unique. So now we have our basic idea, where to get the
toy designs? Simple, just make Car Robots wave 2 with some Beast Machines
elements. Take Transmetal 2 detailing and apply it to robots with some vaguely
rectangular bits. Make sure the faces are uglier and meaner than ever before.
Make sure Megatron's face looks like Jhiaxus with bunny ears. Give
Starscream Megatron's helmet top and give Megatron Prowl's for some reason.
Finally, ressurect the first bad gimmick of the Transformers line, *Masters.
Blend all ingredients and half-bake.
Just so this isn't a completely negative rant, here's what I think Hasbro
should have done instead. Translate Victory. The cartoon still stands up to
the current times artwise, if RiD is any guide. It has great toys that I
would bet Takara still has the molds for. They'd have access to the great
Mega SCF Star Saber and could easily make a larger version along with
Deathsaurus naturally. Most important, *CALL* the characters by those names!
Leave the originals alone. If the trademarks need to be protected, that's
simple enough. Import the PVCs of those characters as limited edition
specials, perhaps to be given out at BotCon. And proceed with the current
plans, reboot every couple of years, with *new* leaders and characters. Keep
it all within the same continuity, but don't pin it down as definitely being
the only continuation of this comic or that cartoon. There's a lot of
universe, a lot of time periods, and a lot of Transformers.
--
Skyflight - Decepticon, ATTCM co-moderator, skeptic, maker of stuff
"And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon that is dreaming."
Nightbird at Dominion MUSH - Join us and rule! bb13.betterbox.net 1999
ATTCM questions? http://www.panix.com/~attcm Now with Viewing Club archive!
David Willis
> obviously
> Prime and Megatron are pieces of property to be milked for every nickel
that
> can be squeezed instead of cornerstones of a mythology who are special
exactly
> because they're unique.
Damn right! Because that's what they are.
--David
(views on Victory withdrawn)
www.itswalky.com
Suspsy
> The Armada line is officially announced, the toy pics are up, the vague
> outline of the cartoon seems to be circulating. So, what exactly do we
have?
The coolest damn Transformer toys to come out in a long time, that's what.
It's your precious G1 revival, dude.
> So far as I can determine, a hodge-podge of former ideas, all of them bad.
"all of them I, Skyflight, personally hate," you mean.
> Start with Machine Wars, where past names are slapped on toys with no
regard
> for whether the alt mode or tech spec matches the character.
I fail to see how the alt modes don't match up with the characters. Cyclonus
is a perfect name for a gunship. Prime is a tractor trailer. Megaton's a
tank. Red Alert's an emergency SUV. Starscream's a fighter jet. Aside from
Perceptor the combined dirt bike/Vespa/skateboard, how exactly do they not
match up?
> TRUK NOT MUNKY will sell toys
Good to see that you're taking up the rhetoric of trolls and idiots now.
because obviously
> Prime and Megatron are pieces of property to be milked for every nickel
that
> can be squeezed instead of cornerstones of a mythology who are special
exactly
> because they're unique.
Obviously, because that's precisely what they are, property. They're the
property of Hasbro, and Hasbro can do whatever they want with them without
having to give a hoot about whether or not it'll offend you or any other
hardcore G1ers.
That having been said, I am admittedly getting a bit tired with Optimus and
Megatron over and over again as the leaders. Hopefully, the Armada ones will
turn out similar to the ones from Beast Wars, who actually *surpassed* the
original Prime and Megatron in many ways. Especially BW Megatron.
> Finally, ressurect the first bad gimmick of the Transformers line,
*Masters.
> Blend all ingredients and half-bake.
The result: something that will likely be a huge hit with kids and
collectors (most of 'em) alike, earning Hasbro tons of well-deserved cash
and ensuring that TFs will continue as a toy line for years to come. God,
life is beautiful.
> Just so this isn't a completely negative rant, here's what I think Hasbro
> should have done instead. Translate Victory.
Oh, for crying out loud . . .
> Leave the originals alone. If the trademarks need to be protected, that's
> simple enough. Import the PVCs of those characters as limited edition
> specials, perhaps to be given out at BotCon.
Screw that, Skyf. SCREW THAT. 3H isn't going to replace their sweet
recoloured toys with dull little PVCs that have far less appeal and play
value. It's merely a fantasy, just like your Victory fantasy. Neither will
ever come true. Deal with it.
And proceed with the current
> plans, reboot every couple of years, with *new* leaders and characters.
Keep
> it all within the same continuity, but don't pin it down as definitely
being
> the only continuation of this comic or that cartoon. There's a lot of
> universe, a lot of time periods, and a lot of Transformers.
Skyf, I actually agree with you on this (I'm shocked too). I really would
like to see an expansion of the TF universe, with new characters, new
worlds, and new time periods.
In the mean time, I'm going to revel in the joy that is Armada.
Susp, say it loud, say it proud: ARMADA RULES!
"Life is good." -BW Rampage
Firebird1
Dude, who would get Victory? Do you think some little kid is going to
sit there and accutaly watch it? Nope, not with Digimon and
BBQ-mon...err Pokemon on. I think Hasbro did a good thing with
creating this series. It will hopefully appeal to both kids and long
time fans. I don't know how the story line will pan out, or even who
is doing the voices, but from the art I have seen from Toy Fair and
Dreamwave it looks like a winner in the art department.
Story wise, well who knows? It seems like a mon influenced story, but
there might be more there, hopefully not like Beast Machines which was
way too deep in some things and too shallow in others. I can only
hope that the crew of writers, directors, and (most importantly) story
editors take a hint and don't set themselves up as a God.
As for the Toys, some of them need to be kitbashed baddly, but so do
some of the RID toys, Beast Machine toys, ect. Face it, Hasbro and
Takara can't design all the toys to be perfect, but they will make
some money off of them. And I expect that the next wave (should be
out around Christmas)will be better then the rest.
All in all, 2002 for Transformers should be an interesting year. I
don't think the toyline will die, but I don't know if it will be a
huge hit like Hasbro is expecting. I guess we will have to wait for
April to find out.
GARDNER1138
should have done instead. Translate Victory. The cartoon still stands up to the
current times artwise, if RiD is any guide. It has great toys that I would bet
Takara still has the molds for. >>
This was my point. If they wanted to put out something new-yet-old, something
big that that thumbed it's nose at continuity and was a different universe,
they already had it written, and excellent toys made. They could've saved
themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars and man-hours.
GARDNER1138
should have done instead. Translate Victory. >>
Oh, and it's kind of creepy that someone was thinking the same thing I was.
Well, I was thinking "Headmasters OR Victory", but I digress...
Oh, and your other comments are spot on.
Evil Zac Shipley
series really, but I've never seen a Japanese g1 mold that would hold up with
today's toy standards.
Besides, I have a feeling some of you g1 purists would be a lot MORE pissed if
Victory or another Japanese series came because they'd inevitably find
something they HATE about it, be it voice acting, translation, names (you know
they'd change the names). At least this way Hasbro is only screwing up
something new in your eyes, and note screwing with something old.
That said I anxiously await new incarnations classic transformers, which is
what Armada is.
-Zac Shipley
http://transfandom.com
Dreamwave distributor, Daily updates, and more
nifty fanboy crap than you can shake a stick at.
GARDNER1138
<< It's your precious G1 revival, dude. >>
It doesn't sound like it. I've read a lot of people write that this is the "G1
revival" that G1 fans were looking for. I think, from some of the reactions,
that it could hardly be considered successful in that regard, if first
impressions are anything.
<< "all of them I, Skyflight, personally hate," you mean. >>
Of course that's what he means. When you say they're "the coolest damn
Transformer toys to come out in a long time" (you did see Fire Convoy and
Scourge, right?), it's your opinion. When someone makes any statement about
something being good or bad on here, it's arbitrary; It's their opinion, and
it's a given that "in my opinion" is implicit in any review. Why is it that
when someone's review is glowing for said line, well, that's great. But if
someone's critical of a franchise they care about, they get shouted down? I
think it may be an American thing. In France, they teach you to have a critical
mind, to be discerning. I bet it took Skyflight at least a bit of time to come
up with that somewhat humourous write-up of his impressions of the line.
Thanks, Skyflight, BTW.
<< Good to see that you're taking up the rhetoric of trolls and idiots now. >>
No; It's the POV of people that are got past the whole "WTF?! Prime's not a
monkey!" bit, and are a little perplexed about the ruckus over "the return to
vehicles" after only having beasts for 6 (or less) years out of 16. Looks like
more cars (yawn), more planes (yawn). But, at least Megs' new form looks
somewhat intimidating and fun (too bad he's going to have miniature tanks and
other mini-vehicles stuck to him like so many bright-coloured chunky leeches).
But, it's hard to get excited about the seemingly good things (Laserbeak in a
new form? A digital camera? Sounds good...) when they muck up the simple things
(Wha--?! Laserbeak's NOT an Autobot. That's pretty elementary, like
"Decepticons are the antagonist faction").
[Have I mentioned that the comics idea is just f***ing awesome?! And, the
return of catalogues! Well, in some form... I guess it's not all bad. Still,
I'll be sticking to my bootlegs, reissues, and old figures while reading the
new comic!]
<< Obviously, because that's precisely what they are, property. They're the
property of Hasbro, and Hasbro can do whatever they want with them without
having to give a hoot about whether or not it'll offend you or any other
hardcore G1ers. >>
Yes; but, wouldn't it behoove them to have a care with them, instead of making
them a parody?
<< That having been said, I am admittedly getting a bit tired with Optimus and
Megatron over and over again as the leaders. >>
Holy shitballs. We agree wholeheartedly on something. Does Hasbro *really*
think that it would be totally unacceptable to go with anything but those two
names. Like, one less kid or fan would've bought Gigatron or Galvatron instead
of Megatron XVI? Plus, everyone maintains that kids have no connection to
Transformers in the past, so why would little Jonny give a flip if the bad guy
were Bludgeon, Thunderwing or whoever.
The point? Well, if every two years the continuity is going to be re-set or
begun again with new Primes and Megs, well that's gonna get pretty confusing. I
personally liked it when Megatron meant either G1/G2 or BW Megatron and no
other.
<< Especially BW Megatron. >>
Dammit. It happened again. I'm sure we won't see this happen any more. I
promise, Daniel. Anyhow, I loved BW Megs so much more than the original. The
original (cartoon) Megatron was incompetent, laughable, and a coward. The new
one? Far more entertaining, and far more sly.
<< The result: something that will likely be a huge hit with kids and
collectors (most of 'em) alike, earning Hasbro tons of well-deserved cash and
ensuring that TFs will continue as a toy line for years to come. God,
life is beautiful. >>
Jumping the gun a bit, aren't we?
We shall see. It's likely that you will be right. But, there are those small,
unpredictable things that can derail a line. This one appears that it might
collapse under the weight of the having to be about Mini-cons all the time
burden. But, they are giving it a good solid push, so (unfortunately for me and
other G1/BW/original continuity fans) it'll probably be a moderate success, at
the very least.
<< Screw that, Skyf. SCREW THAT. It's merely a fantasy, just like your Victory
fantasy. Neither will
ever come true. Deal with it. >>
Why's this so out of the question, in your mind? I don't get why Victory
couldn't work in North America and Europe...Not my cup o' tea, but if you're
going to say that Continuity doesn't matter and just give the kiddies bright
coloured plastics with gimmicks, the work's already been done. But, from your
response, it appears that this is more about your feelings towards Victory.
Again, I'm not a Victory fan (at all, really), but if you're going to do a
hodge-podge line, just use a tested one that you've the rights to!
<< Skyf, I actually agree with you on this (I'm shocked too). I really would
like to see an expansion of the TF universe, with new characters, new worlds,
and new time periods. >>
F***. It happened once more. Hmm. I'd agree with you both. I don't see the need
to say "well, this is in an alternate universe"...it sounds like what an author
does when he "paints himself into a corner", like what Terry Moore did recently
with SIP. There're are so many time periods (millions of years during the Great
Wars alone!) and new characters they could introduce (like they did in BW)
without using G1 characters and fitting the square pegs into round holes.
<< Susp, say it loud, say it proud: ARMADA RULES! >>
"No, I don't think we'll be doing that..."
[Guess the Simpsons episode. Anybody? Bueller?]
David Willis
pissed if
> Victory or another Japanese series came because they'd inevitably find
> something they HATE about it, be it voice acting, translation, names (you
know
> they'd change the names). At least this way Hasbro is only screwing up
> something new in your eyes, and note screwing with something old.
Heh heh. You KNOW that if they ported Victory over here, Star Saber would
be Optimus and Deathsaurus would be Megatron. Heh heh heh...
--David
www.itswalky.com
Cyb
> outline of the cartoon seems to be circulating. So, what exactly do we have?
> So far as I can determine, a hodge-podge of former ideas, all of them bad.
> Start with Machine Wars, where past names are slapped on toys with no regard
> for whether the alt mode or tech spec matches the character.
Okay, by that mentality then you shouldn't be allowed to name your son
'Frank' because he may not grow up to be like Franklin Roosevelt.
It's silly. G1 Cyclonus is G1 Cyclonus and will always be so. Just
because some ugly ass helicoptor thing comes along and also uses that
name doesn't dilute that character any at all unless you let it. I
mean, when I hear 'Grimlock' I think of the loveable big dumb
dinosaur, not a green steam shovel. Same deal.
> Then blend
> Beast Wars and RiD together in a seperate bowl to come up with the great
> idea of using Optimus Prime and Megatron as the two leader characters,
> perhaps with or without an explanation of where they came from. Pointedly
> ignore any concerns about the dilution of what made the original characters
> special in the first place. TRUK NOT MUNKY will sell toys because obviously
> Prime and Megatron are pieces of property to be milked for every nickel that
> can be squeezed instead of cornerstones of a mythology who are special exactly
> because they're unique.
As much as you'd like to believe it, Transformers is not based around
small collector minority, but it's based around selling stuff to kids.
The names are Hasbro's property and, *gasp* they sell the toys.
Optimus Prime and Megatron are the two most well known names in all of
Transformerdom, and without them a TF line would probably not sell as
well, which is what it's about. Hasbro is not going to have a line
fail but say "Oh well, at least we made the collectors happy and used
different names."
> So now we have our basic idea, where to get the
> toy designs? Simple, just make Car Robots wave 2 with some Beast Machines
> elements. Take Transmetal 2 detailing and apply it to robots with some vaguely
> rectangular bits. Make sure the faces are uglier and meaner than ever before.
Hehe, I'll agree here. A lot of them had pretty bad faces, though I
think I stand alone when I say I like the look of combined Prime's
face.
> Make sure Megatron's face looks like Jhiaxus with bunny ears.
Ahaha. Dude. heh
> Give
> Starscream Megatron's helmet top and give Megatron Prowl's for some reason.
> Finally, ressurect the first bad gimmick of the Transformers line, *Masters.
> Blend all ingredients and half-bake.
Starscream has Megatron's helmet? I don't follow. Starscream's head
looks almost exactly as his original namesake's head did.
>
> Just so this isn't a completely negative rant, here's what I think Hasbro
> should have done instead. Translate Victory. The cartoon still stands up to
> the current times artwise, if RiD is any guide. It has great toys that I
> would bet Takara still has the molds for. They'd have access to the great
> Mega SCF Star Saber and could easily make a larger version along with
> Deathsaurus naturally. Most important, *CALL* the characters by those names!
> Leave the originals alone. If the trademarks need to be protected, that's
> simple enough. Import the PVCs of those characters as limited edition
> specials, perhaps to be given out at BotCon. And proceed with the current
> plans, reboot every couple of years, with *new* leaders and characters. Keep
> it all within the same continuity, but don't pin it down as definitely being
> the only continuation of this comic or that cartoon. There's a lot of
> universe, a lot of time periods, and a lot of Transformers.
Like I said, it'd be nice, but you have to remember that the fandom is
a minority. Hasbro isn't going to release a line that has a chance to
flop, similar to how BM did because the show was aimed at too high an
age group. It's why RID was so successful, because it was aimed at a
low age group, even lower than TFs usually are. Don't be surprised if
Armada has a similar feel to it, though Hasbro may surprise us. And
then there's always the comic, which IS aimed at us, so all is not
lost if the show ends up being RID silliness.
GARDNER1138
what Armada is. >>
Well, we'll have to "agree to disagree", then, because I'm not sure how you
arrived at this conclusion. Sure, there's some name re-use, but this is hardly
like "The New Adventures of" or something like that.
Coincidentally, I don't think I'm alone when I say I was looking forward to a
re-launch of the entire story with familiar, but updated characters--something
along the lines of what they're doing with the new MOTU line.
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>When someone makes any statement about something being good or
>bad on here, it's arbitrary; It's their opinion, and it's a given that "in my
>opinion" is implicit in any review. Why is it that when someone's review
>is glowing for said line, well, that's great. But if someone's critical of a
>franchise they care about, they get shouted down? I think it may be an
>American thing.
I always thought it was an ATT thing, honestly...
>But, at least Megs' new form looks somewhat intimidating and fun (too
>bad he's going to have miniature tanks and other mini-vehicles stuck to
>him like so many bright-coloured chunky leeches).
Heh heh. That's a beautiful metaphor. :)
>Does Hasbro *really* think that it would be totally unacceptable to go
>with anything but those two names. Like, one less kid or fan would've
>bought Gigatron or Galvatron instead of Megatron XVI? Plus, everyone
>maintains that kids have no connection to Transformers in the past, so
>why would little Jonny give a flip if the bad guy were Bludgeon,
>Thunderwing or whoever.
Well, I will say this. It bothered me when we'd get an entire year of
Transformers toys with no discernible Decepticon leader. I remember looking
through the 1988 and '89 catalogs and wondering, "Who's the boss these days?
Doubledealer? Roadblock?" It was impossible to tell, since I'd never heard of
any of these guys before. (Bludgeon and Thunderwing sure weren't designated
leader-toys according to Hasbro. Furman apparently picked them at random to
thrust them into the limelight in the comics.)
So, I can appreciate the recognition power that characters like Optimus Prime
and Megatron have. The problems begin when Hasbro starts going, "Oh, well,
this isn't actually the *same* Megatron that you know and love," basically
admitting that they're just capitalizing off the popularity of the name without
taking advantage of any of the *reasons* why that name means something to begin
with.
...Hasbro is just about the only company I know of that pulls this routine,
too. You don't see SquareSoft going, "Here's our latest game! We're calling
it Final Fantasy World. Uh, no, it's not actually an RPG, and it doesn't have
anything at all to do with the previous Final Fantasy titles, but we already
owned the rights to the name, so we figured we could sell a totally unrelated
game based on the title alone!" Doesn't this sound daft to anyone else when
put in different context like this?
Zobovor... actually, I *can* think of another company that did this, at least
once. Volkswagen. I'm sorry, but that monstrosity is simply *not* a VW
Beetle, no matter what name they decided to slap on it. VW bugs are cute.
That thing is an abberation. I've taken to calling it the Volkswagen Insect.
Evil Túrin
> ...Hasbro is just about the only company I know of that pulls this routine,
> too. You don't see SquareSoft going, "Here's our latest game! We're calling
> it Final Fantasy World. Uh, no, it's not actually an RPG, and it doesn't have
> anything at all to do with the previous Final Fantasy titles, but we already
> owned the rights to the name, so we figured we could sell a totally unrelated
> game based on the title alone!" Doesn't this sound daft to anyone else when
> put in different context like this?
Hmm... I was under the impression that *all* the Final Fantasy games
basically had nothing really to do with each other. At least, that's
what they said on the Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within DVD (which I
rented, and I think it's a pretty decent flick, so there).
Túrin
Seaspray's propellers are so cute. His legs may not be poseable, but
his propellers move. That's plenty of poseability for a minibot.
Polaris
> ...Hasbro is just about the only company I know of that pulls this routine,
> too. You don't see SquareSoft going, "Here's our latest game! We're calling
> it Final Fantasy World. Uh, no, it's not actually an RPG, and it doesn't have
> anything at all to do with the previous Final Fantasy titles, but we already
> owned the rights to the name, so we figured we could sell a totally unrelated
> game based on the title alone!" Doesn't this sound daft to anyone else when
> put in different context like this?
...what about the movie?
--
Polaris
--
"I am the mack daddy of deception." -- Deathasauras
Legend says only virgins can see unicorns. You pretend you can't see it.
Túrin
>
Man, I wish I could remember when I'm being evil or not.
Túrin
Drakkhen
"David Willis" <wii...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MyFc8.2576$A%3.2...@ord-read.news.verio.net...
for hasboro and they are out to make money. If you don't like it don't
support the line
Drakkhen
"Evil Zac Shipley" <plan...@aol.comical> wrote in message
news:20020220013057...@mb-me.aol.com...
> I admit I don't know a heck of a lot about Victory or any of the Japanese
> series really, but I've never seen a Japanese g1 mold that would hold up
with
> today's toy standards.
>
> Besides, I have a feeling some of you g1 purists would be a lot MORE
pissed if
> Victory or another Japanese series came because they'd inevitably find
> something they HATE about it, be it voice acting, translation, names (you
know
> they'd change the names). At least this way Hasbro is only screwing up
> something new in your eyes, and note screwing with something old.
>
> That said I anxiously await new incarnations classic transformers, which
is
> what Armada is.
>
bitching
Pyre
>
> The coolest damn Transformer toys to come out in a long time, that's what.
> It's your precious G1 revival, dude.
I'll agree there. Armada looks to be very exciting. It just screams G1,
too. Earth style vehicle modes with boxy robots. And poseable to boot.
Kick ass.
>
> I fail to see how the alt modes don't match up with the characters.
Agreed. I also don't think MW was too mismatched either. Plus until we
see any kind of notes on the personalities of these toys, we can't really
judge as to whether or not the names given suit them. While the name
"Cyclonus" is a great name for this toy, this toy may not suit the
original character. It's still to early to make any kind of decision on
such things.
>
> Obviously, because that's precisely what they are, property. They're the
> property of Hasbro, and Hasbro can do whatever they want with them without
> having to give a hoot about whether or not it'll offend you or any other
> hardcore G1ers.
Prime and Megatron toys sell. Hasbro would be stupid NOT to include them
in some form. It's just a fact that people are going to have to get used
to. Besides, if you don't like those names, then CALL THEM SOMETHING
ELSE. It's what I do.
>
> That having been said, I am admittedly getting a bit tired with Optimus and
> Megatron over and over again as the leaders. Hopefully, the Armada ones will
> turn out similar to the ones from Beast Wars
I doubt that's the case though. Armada Prime just screams G1 Prime to me
and I very much suspect that to be the case as well. Armadatron can go
either way really.
> who actually *surpassed* the
> original Prime and Megatron in many ways. Especially BW Megatron.
BW Megatron is the best Megatron ever. Anything else is just a poor
imitation.
>>Just so this isn't a completely negative rant, here's what I think Hasbro
>>should have done instead. Translate Victory.
>>
>
> Oh, for crying out loud . . .
I don't think Victory would ever sell here. The toys are too out of date.
Now if they could engineer some NEW toys based on the Victory cartoon,
then they might have something. I sure wouldn't mind a super poseable
Death Czar myself. :-)
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"All that has been. All that is. All that's to be.
Lord I'm just killing time, and time's killing me."
- Zakk Wylde
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>TRUK NOT MUNKY will sell toys because obviously Prime and
>Megatron are pieces of property to be milked for every nickel that can
>be squeezed instead of cornerstones of a mythology who are special
>exactly because they're unique.
>Make sure the faces are uglier and meaner than ever before. Make sure
>Megatron's face looks like Jhiaxus with bunny ears.
If they're gonna do bunny ears at *all,* they could at *least* give 'em to
Cyclonus...
>Finally, ressurect the first bad gimmick of the Transformers line,
>*Masters. Blend all ingredients and half-bake.
Heh heh.
>Just so this isn't a completely negative rant, here's what I think Hasbro
>should have done instead. Translate Victory. The cartoon still stands
>up to the current times artwise, if RiD is any guide. It has great toys
>that I would bet Takara still has the molds for.
The show would probably be fairly successful, yeah. I'm looking over a list of
the toys from that line, though, and I just don't see it happening.
Brainmasters, Multiforce, Dinoforce... it's one thing to sneak in ancient toys
like the Combaticons into an otherwise modern line, but you can't sell an
entire toyline of these guys. Not today. (And this is coming from a guy who's
in love with Monstructor.) Now, brand-new toys based on the same designs, only
using updated technology... I could see that happening. Of course, at that
point you may as well start from scratch.
>Most important, *CALL* the characters by those names! Leave the
>originals alone.
Even though I don't want to see Victory imported, I do agree with the premise
behind this idea. I wouldn't mind at *all* getting an all-new cast with
completely unprecedented names. With strong writing and well-designed toys, a
new Transformers series doesn't *have* to have ties to the past in order to be
successful. I mean, Beast Wars wasn't a runaway hit *just* because the leaders
were named Optimus and Megatron, was it? (And there were, as I recall, 49
other episodes besides "The Agenda," so that alone didn't carry the TV show
along...)
>If the trademarks need to be protected, that's simple enough. Import
>the PVCs of those characters as limited edition specials, perhaps to be
>given out at BotCon.
Of course, if they're not actually going to *apply* the remaining trademarks to
the original characters to begin with, then I have to question the practice of
fighting so hard to retain them. Go ahead and let the Optimus Prime and
Megatron trademarks expire. Better that than coming up with ten new
characters who use the name but completely fail to evoke the same image as the
characters who made the names famous to begin with.
--
Zobovor
Love to eats them mousies; mousies what I love to eats.
Bite they tiny heads off; nibble on they tiny feets.
Pyre
> << Just so this isn't a completely negative rant, here's what I think
> Hasbro should have done instead. Translate Victory. >>
>
> Oh, and it's kind of creepy that someone was thinking the same thing I
> was. Well, I was thinking "Headmasters OR Victory", but I digress...
I fail to understand this sentiment. Why do people want boxy, clunky,
bricky toys when they cam get something that has the same aesthetics but
can actually be played with and enjoyed. For all intents and purposes,
Armada IS Headmasters or Victory, only waaaaaaaaay better.
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>Hmm... I was under the impression that *all* the Final Fantasy games
>basically had nothing really to do with each other.
The plots aren't directly related, and neither are the characters (despite what
some Cid fans might tell you), but if you buy a Final Fantasy game, you already
*know* what kind of game you're getting. It's always going to be an RPG where
you gain experience points and earn money through turn-based battles while
exploring castles, caves, and forests.so that you can buy better armor and
weapons that will enable you to save the world. It's all variations on a
theme.
Zobovor... I read somewhere that the S-NES game The Secret of Mana was
originally going to be entitled Final Fantasy Adventure II, and I'm really glad
they didn't go in that direction since it really *isn't* a Final Fantasy game
in any conceivable respect.
Pyre
>
> G1 Cyclonus is G1 Cyclonus and will always be so. Just because
> some ugly ass helicoptor thing comes along and also uses that name
> doesn't dilute that character any at all unless you let it. I mean,
> when I hear 'Grimlock' I think of the loveable big dumb dinosaur, not
> a green steam shovel. Same deal.
You've hit the nail right on the head there. I just don't see the problem
with name reuse. Especially if the name fits the form. BW Inferno
anyone? Perfect name for that form as well as the character.
>
> Starscream's head
> looks almost exactly as his original namesake's head did.
If that head doesn't say Starscream, then I don't know what will.
Túrin
>
>
> >Hmm... I was under the impression that *all* the Final Fantasy games
> >basically had nothing really to do with each other.
>
> The plots aren't directly related, and neither are the characters (despite what
> some Cid fans might tell you), but if you buy a Final Fantasy game, you already
> *know* what kind of game you're getting. It's always going to be an RPG where
> you gain experience points and earn money through turn-based battles while
> exploring castles, caves, and forests.so that you can buy better armor and
> weapons that will enable you to save the world. It's all variations on a
> theme.
Okay, so if you buy an Optimus or Megatron toy, you know what you're
getting: the leader of a faction of warring sentient robots from
Cybertron. Variations on a theme.
I know what you mean, and mostly agree as well... just attacking your
analogy because I'm a jerk that way. :-)
Túrin
"Ig gomfa fome ubhiggin." --Calvin
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
> I just don't see the problem with name reuse. Especially if the name
>fits the form. BW Inferno anyone? Perfect name for that form as well
>as the character.
The difference, I think, is that the original Inferno was a fairly minor
player, who only got the spotlight in a handful of episodes and was eventually
forgotten about. BW Inferno was featured far more prominently in many more
episodes, and made the name very much his own. Same deal with BW Rampage.
When you take a prominent G1 character's name, like that of Starscream or
Grimlock or Soundwave, there's this huge legacy that the new character is
clashing with as he attempts to carve out a legacy of his own. There are some
Transformers you just can't compete with on an historical level. Inferno and
Rampage had it easy, but how can you hear the name Grimlock and *not* think of
giant robot dinosaurs with big, nasty, pointy teeth?
To put it in human perspective, there are some names that you just don't give
your children, like Albert Einstein or Martin Luther King, Jr. or Jesus Christ,
since no matter what you kid becomes or wants to become, he's inextricably tied
to these historical figures and will be compared with them for his entire
natural life.
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>Okay, so if you buy an Optimus or Megatron toy, you know what you're
>getting: the leader of a faction of warring sentient robots from
>Cybertron. Variations on a theme.
I actually do agree with that to an extent. Nearly all the Megatron toys have
been weapons of some kind (and yes, alligators and T. rexes are about as close
as you can get to killing machines in the animal kingdom) and just about all
the Prime toys have evoked some sense of power or greatness. (The Go-Bot
versions are the main exception to this rule, but then those toys weren't
specifically designed to exist as these characters.)
Zobovor, finds it terribly ironic that "Cobra Commander" actually *is* a title,
but only applies to a single character, whereas the name "Megatron" could refer
to four or five separate entities at this point...
<r@nky |3astard 3.11
routine,
> too. You don't see SquareSoft going, "Here's our latest game! We're
calling
> it Final Fantasy World. Uh, no, it's not actually an RPG, and it doesn't
have
> anything at all to do with the previous Final Fantasy titles, but we
already
> owned the rights to the name, so we figured we could sell a totally
unrelated
> game based on the title alone!" Doesn't this sound daft to anyone else
when
> put in different context like this?
What about Final Fantasy Tactics?
--
<r@nky |3astard 3.11 - Driven by hate, consumed by fear.
Doug Kern
>
> ...Hasbro is just about the only company I know of that pulls this routine,
> too. You don't see SquareSoft going, "Here's our latest game! We're calling
> it Final Fantasy World. Uh, no, it's not actually an RPG, and it doesn't have
> anything at all to do with the previous Final Fantasy titles, but we already
> owned the rights to the name, so we figured we could sell a totally unrelated
> game based on the title alone!" Doesn't this sound daft to anyone else when
> put in different context like this?
>
Actually I can think of a ton of Japanese companies that have done
with with various animes. The one franchise that really sticks out in
my mind is Gundam. Starting with G Gundam, Bandai made a whole bunch
of "alternate universe" series that only had a few things in common
with the original contunity.
Doug Kern
> The Armada line is officially announced, the toy pics are up, the vague
> outline of the cartoon seems to be circulating. So, what exactly do we have?
> So far as I can determine, a hodge-podge of former ideas, all of them bad.
> Start with Machine Wars, where past names are slapped on toys with no regard
> for whether the alt mode or tech spec matches the character.
Skyflight, have looked at Starscream? I mean really look at him,
especially his face? It is very clear that that the designers had the
original toy and character in mind when they designed the new toy.
The facial details there are absolutely uncannyily Starscream, right
down to the arogent little smirk.
He is probally happy he finally has a nicely posable toy after all
these years!
Then blend
> Beast Wars and RiD together in a seperate bowl to come up with the great
> idea of using Optimus Prime and Megatron as the two leader characters,
> perhaps with or without an explanation of where they came from. Pointedly
> ignore any concerns about the dilution of what made the original characters
> special in the first place. TRUK NOT MUNKY will sell toys because obviously
> Prime and Megatron are pieces of property to be milked for every nickel that
> can be squeezed instead of cornerstones of a mythology who are special exactly
> because they're unique. So now we have our basic idea, where to get the
> toy designs? Simple, just make Car Robots wave 2 with some Beast Machines
> elements. Take Transmetal 2 detailing and apply it to robots with some vaguely
> rectangular bits. Make sure the faces are uglier and meaner than ever before.
> Make sure Megatron's face looks like Jhiaxus with bunny ears. Give
> Starscream Megatron's helmet top and give Megatron Prowl's for some reason.
> Finally, ressurect the first bad gimmick of the Transformers line, *Masters.
> Blend all ingredients and half-bake.
>
> Just so this isn't a completely negative rant, here's what I think Hasbro
> should have done instead. Translate Victory. The cartoon still stands up to
> the current times artwise, if RiD is any guide. It has great toys that I
> would bet Takara still has the molds for. They'd have access to the great
> Mega SCF Star Saber and could easily make a larger version along with
Funny you should mention Star Saber...
Mouse_Pad formerly The Waspinator
> Just so this isn't a completely negative rant, here's what I think Hasbro
> should have done instead. Translate Victory. The cartoon still stands up to
> the current times artwise, if RiD is any guide. It has great toys that I
> would bet Takara still has the molds for. They'd have access to the great
Let's see. A line full of brightly-colored transforming tech
vehicles, some of which are identifiable as being based on a real
vehicle, some not. On top of that, you've got these little micro-TF's
running around, some of which merge with the larger TF's. Plus
there's the requisite human-anime-child element. And that, in a
nutshell, is Victory.
Or was I describing Armada? Hmm.
ADY, reminding everyone that change is bad. Always.
Evil Zac Shipley
>Transformer toys to come out in a long time" (you did see Fire Convoy and
>Scourge, right?),
Technically no-one has seen Scourge, though his mold is close to a decade old,
and Fire Convoy has been in my collection for close to 2 years now. I'd
qualify that as "a long time" even if I did consider them to be the best of
the best.
Avias
the Chrono games better (no $%&#ing random battles!). But I do know a
bit, and feel like addressing some points.
zob...@aol.com (Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor) wrote:
>You don't see SquareSoft going, "Here's our latest game! We're
calling
>it Final Fantasy World. Uh, no, it's not actually an RPG, and it
doesn't have
>anything at all to do with the previous Final Fantasy titles, but we
already
>owned the rights to the name, so we figured we could sell a totally
unrelated
>game based on the title alone!"
Dude. Square LOVED slapping Final Fantasy's good name on more-or-less
unrelated games. To whit: Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest, the only
US-first FF game, and the largest departure from the 'norm'. The
entire Legends series, also known as the SaGa series, hijacked into
the the FF line for the US. FF Adventure, another hijacking, was the
first game in the Seiken Densetsu series in Japan, and whose sequels
we got as the Mana games (well, a couple of them, anyway). Final
Fantasy was their first big hit, and its name gave what would
otherwise be yet more random RPGs selling power. If Square had been
slightly less successful, we probaly would've gotten Secret of Mana
and Chrono Cross as FF games as well, assuming we got them at all. In
fact, we kinda have with CC, now that it's been rereleased as part of
the FF: Chronicles set with FFIV.
> Evil Túrin wrote:
>
> >Hmm... I was under the impression that *all* the Final Fantasy games
> >basically had nothing really to do with each other.
>
> The plots aren't directly related, and neither are the characters (despite what
> some Cid fans might tell you), but if you buy a Final Fantasy game, you already
> *know* what kind of game you're getting. It's always going to be an RPG where
> you gain experience points and earn money through turn-based battles while
> exploring castles, caves, and forests.so that you can buy better armor and
> weapons that will enable you to save the world. It's all variations on a
> theme.
Right. Except that that describes almost any non-action RPG. And the
basic Battle system in every FF game is different. And FFX doesn't use
experience points. And the battles are more time based than turn
based.
Really, the only constants in FF are the @#$&ing random battles, and a
lot of the character, spell, and weapon names. Which are used
differently in each game, But I seldom hear people moaning about that.
It's a bit of fan service, really, and it sells the game. It's part of
the *fun* to see who Cid is this time or if Odin's gonna pop up or
what weird crap you have to do to get the Ultima sword or the
Masamune.
Anyway. I had a point about TFs that I was gonna connect to all this,
but Polaris just did it for me. So go read that post now.
Avias
Just had to get that off my chest...
Irrellius Spam of the Potato People
basic Battle system in every FF game is different. And FFX doesn't use
experience points. >>
Except yes, it does. They are called AP. It's what gets youmotion on the sphere
grid. FFX does not have character levels, but it does have experience points.
<< And the battles are more time based than turn
based. >>
Really? when your character's turn comes up, wait. If it is indeed, time based,
waiting on your characters turn will eventually let the enemy attack on your
turn. Just because the turn order is based on agility does not a time based
game make.
Al-
http://www.Angelfire.com/mi2/Ob1kenoby/
"I wish i had to defend the earth from the darkness."-TrypticonX
"No, I didn't say sacrifice virgins, I said sacrifice virginity. That way it's
more fun for everyone."
Join the guns make fun program today!
Irrellius Spam of the Potato People
be Optimus and Deathsaurus would be Megatron. Heh heh heh...
--David
www.itswalky.com >>
Or even worse, Star Saber would be Starscream. (Put the optimus name on a jet
in a G1-ish revival show? Yeah right!)
Anthony "Tonyfitz" Brucale
Skyflight <Skyf...@Decepticon-Empire.org> wrote in message
news:a4v6mm$kk$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> The Armada line is officially announced, the toy pics are up, the vague
> outline of the cartoon seems to be circulating. So, what exactly do we
have?
> So far as I can determine, a hodge-podge of former ideas, all of them bad.
And this said whilst ignoring all of the good points of Armada and its
predecessors. Everything will have its pluses and minuses, especially in the
launch of a new line (as evidenced by the first run BW, BM, and G2 toys as
compared to the later toys of each line).
> Start with Machine Wars, where past names are slapped on toys with no
>regard
> for whether the alt mode or tech spec matches the character.
You are kidding right? For the most part, Hasbro has been dead-on with name
to alt mode matching for Armada. Prime is TRUKK, check. Megatron is a tank
ala G2 (because toy guns are looked down upon by the American buying
public), check. Red Alert is an emergency vehicle, check (sorry, the idea of
a Fire Cheif driving a Lambourghini was inane to me when I was 9, no
difference now). Starscream is a jet (with head molded after the original
'Screamer), check. Laserbeak is a bird that turns into a recording device,
check. So, where's the problem? So far, none of the major characters that
Hasbro has reused have fallen short, unless you wanna harp on Perceptor,
Swindle or Leader-1.
And for Machine Wars, I still think it was a fun and imaginative portrayal
of some old friends. Prime, Strascream, Mirage, Hoist, Skywarp, and
Thundercracker all got reasonably similar alt modes and techs. Soundwave got
a more appropriate alt mode, as a communications station. Megatron, IMHO,
got a fitting mode, being that the rest of his troops sans Soudnwave were
jets. Hubcap wasn't too far an extension, given the name; and Prowl may be
the biggest leap, but hey, he's the right colors and there's no law saying
Prowl has to be a cop car.
> Then blend
> Beast Wars and RiD together in a seperate bowl to come up with the great
> idea of using Optimus Prime and Megatron as the two leader characters,
> perhaps with or without an explanation of where they came from. Pointedly
> ignore any concerns about the dilution of what made the original
characters
> special in the first place.
Perhaps, but considering Hasbro's aim towards collectors and kids, I doubt
it. However, it cannot be dismissed yet, and should wait at least until the
line debuts and show airs before being the harbinger of doom.
The same concerns were voiced about BW and look how it turned out. There
were more G1 refs than you could shake a stick at and it was clearly defined
as to where Primal and BWMegs were in comaprison to the originals.
>TRUK NOT MUNKY will sell toys because obviously
> Prime and Megatron are pieces of property to be milked for every nickel
that
> can be squeezed instead of cornerstones of a mythology
Yes they are. As much as I would like a new [Insert name] Prime and *atron,
its understandable that Hasbro would want to put the two most recoginzable
names in Transformers history right up front. They are NOT cornerstones of a
mythology, they ARE corporate trademarks meant to be used to turn a profit.
> who are special exactly
> because they're unique. So now we have our basic idea, where to get the
> toy designs? Simple, just make Car Robots wave 2 with some Beast Machines
> elements. Take Transmetal 2 detailing and apply it to robots with some
vaguely
> rectangular bits. Make sure the faces are uglier and meaner than ever
before.
Again, igoring all the gimmickry and play value that these toys potentially
have.
And speaking of ugly faces, Starscream looks just like G1. Ugly, indeed.
> Make sure Megatron's face looks like Jhiaxus with bunny ears.
Do you really think Hasbro is going for some obscure comic character appeal?
Please...
> Give
> Starscream Megatron's helmet top and give Megatron Prowl's for some
>reason.
> Finally, ressurect the first bad gimmick of the Transformers line,
*Masters.
> Blend all ingredients and half-bake.
Actually, the first bad gimmick of the TF line was the scramble city
combiners, and everyone loves them. Those toys are equally inhibited, if not
moreso, by their gimmick as Armada is. Again, I don't see how versatile
Mini-Con toys that have robot mode, alt mode, and extra modes/playability
can be considered "bad" outright. As of now, these toys can potentially
bring more functionality than anything in the Transformers line, even
surpassing Multiforce.
> Just so this isn't a completely negative rant, here's what I think Hasbro
> should have done instead. Translate Victory. The cartoon still stands up
to
> the current times artwise, if RiD is any guide. It has great toys that I
> would bet Takara still has the molds for. They'd have access to the great
> Mega SCF Star Saber and could easily make a larger version along with
> Deathsaurus naturally. Most important, *CALL* the characters by those >
names!
Um, why? Victory's art is shoddy, and at times drenched in Anime conventions
that don't translate well. (i.e. - Monstercon (forgot his name) guy
imagining he's dancing in flowers.) The toys, even moreso than Armada, are
hindered by their own gimmicks. Why would Hasbro want to introduce a line
that is roughly 30 or so characters, when it already has well over 50 slated
for Armada? As far as I'm concerned, 50 new characters adds infite dimension
to the Transformers mythos, whereas a direct import of a ten year old
Japanese cartoon adds *zero*.
> Leave the originals alone. If the trademarks need to be protected, that's
> simple enough. Import the PVCs of those characters as limited edition
> specials, perhaps to be given out at BotCon. And proceed with the current
> plans, reboot every couple of years, with *new* leaders and characters.
Though I agree that I'd rather see new leaders, I don't understand the
difference if they are new characters with old names? Shouldn't we let the
character be the difining characteristic of the character and not the name?
I know several people named "Steve," but my brain can differenciate them
entirely from one another...there's Fat Steve, there's Skinhead Steve,
there's Crackhead Steve, and there's Walky's Roommate Steve. Just because I
knew skinhead Steve first doesn't make Walky's Roomate Steve and insult to
the original.
So, there's G1 Prime and there's RiD Prime (who in my mind is the same
boring guy), why can't there be Armada Prime as well? And as for Megatron,
we call always consider it a term much like Caesar in ancient Rome.
> Keep
> it all within the same continuity, but don't pin it down as definitely
being
> the only continuation of this comic or that cartoon. There's a lot of
> universe, a lot of time periods, and a lot of Transformers.
Because somehow, the millions of toy-buying children out there are well
informed of the complexeties of a 18 year old cartoon show and comic that is
only the concern of a few thousand quarterlife-crisis Gen-X-ers.
--Ant
Skyflight
: it's a given that "in my opinion" is implicit in any review. Why is it that
In addition, I very deliberately added, "So far as I can tell". That
immediately puts this in its proper context, *my* take on things.
: when someone's review is glowing for said line, well, that's great. But if
: someone's critical of a franchise they care about, they get shouted down? I
I can only presume they're not self-aware enough to understand what they
feel doesn't equal reality. Or else are so lacking in the most basic
elements of logic they don't understand how if you apply one standard to one
person, it must also apply to you. Thanks for being one of the few to point
out the contradiction in people shouting loudly that X is the greatest thing
ever with no qualification, then scold me for not qualifying my statements to
the contrary.
--
Skyflight - Decepticon, ATTCM co-moderator, skeptic, maker of stuff
"And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon that is dreaming."
Nightbird at Dominion MUSH - Join us and rule! bb13.betterbox.net 1999
ATTCM questions? http://www.panix.com/~attcm Now with Viewing Club archive!
Skyflight
: they'd change the names). At least this way Hasbro is only screwing up
: something new in your eyes, and note screwing with something old.
That's what they do each and every time they slap the names on new toys.
There's a reason they didn't call the captain of the Enterprise in Next
Generation Captain Kirk 2. One could make all the same arguments I've been
hearing here, Kirk is instantly recognizable, putting Kirk's name on a toy
would assure it sells so they'd be stupid not to. Well, they didn't, and
they far surpassed the orignal in terms of commercial sales. Frankly I don't
understand why commercial sales are being brought up in this thread.. I say
I object to the dilution of artistic value for the sake of making money, and
people respond they're doing it to make money. I *know* they are, that's the
basis of my complaint.
Now I do think you have a very good point that I wouldn't trust Hasbro not
to screw up Victory. Just toss in some mangled translations, and presto,
ruined show. But if they'd simply translate it properly so the concepts and
dynamic came through, they'd be fine.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> Of course that's what he means. When you say they're "the coolest damn
> Transformer toys to come out in a long time" (you did see Fire Convoy and
> something being good or bad on here, it's arbitrary; It's their opinion, and
To me, this is only true to a point. I mean, sure, *any* statement made
by anybody at any time is really just their opinion. But some opinions
are factually wrong ("It's my opinion that gravity doesn't exist"), and
others are subjective but stated in rude or offensive ways ("It's my
opinion that all people from Michigan are assholes"). And the presence of
an 'IMO' really *does* make a difference to the tone of a statement.
Sometimes it's important, sometimes it's not. Tone, in general, is
important. ("Steve-o's a self-righteous ****wit" versus "I wish Steve-o
would post more TF content and less 'can't-we-all-get-along' meta
stuff." Both have essentially the same objective content -- although the
latter is a bit more specific -- but one of them is mean and the other
isn't.)
> Why is it that when someone's review is glowing for said line, well,
> that's great. But if someone's critical of a franchise they care about,
> they get shouted down?
Well, I made a post about this a couple weeks ago, in a thread called "a
line for the fans" or something. Basically, a braindead "I love
[blank]!!! It's so AWESUM!!!!!!!" post is 'better', in my opinion, than a
braindead "I hate [blank]!!! It's so STOOPID!!!!!!!" post. At that level
of sophistication, both are pretty much useless, but one of them expresses
joy and the other expresses derision. The ATT community is better served
by joy than derision. Even when comparing more erudite posts, I'd almost
always favor the positive one over the negative, assuming they are equally
well-written and thoughtful, although the gap between them narrows as the
posts themselves get better.
This doesn't mean that I think people shouldn't make negative posts. I
don't think people should be "shouted down" for giving a negative review.
I *want* to see everyone with a unique angle on something post about it,
because then ATT has the widest possible spectrum of posts, and that's a
good thing. I just want those posts to be friendly. And TRUKK NOT MUNKY
posts aren't friendly. (And I mean TRUKK NOT MUNKY in its broadest
possible sense, as in "old not new" as opposed to "vehicles not beasts".)
Posts that say "I prefer the older stuff, because the designs are more
appealing to me and because I like modes that very closely match
real-world machines", however, are friendly, and quite welcome.
> I think it may be an American thing.
Like Zobovor said, I think it's more of an ATT Thing than an American
Thing. I really don't see this attitude too many other places. I wish I
did, though. I like it. It leads to a less hostile environment where
people can concentrate on celebrating Transformers instead of being bogged
down by negativity.
> In France, they teach you to have a critical mind, to be discerning.
By saying this you're making an implicit statement that somebody is *not*
using a critical mind. (It may be an unintentional implicit statement,
but it's there.) Don't assume that just because somebody likes a new
product that they haven't gone through a rational process of evaluation.
> I bet it took Skyflight at least a bit of time to come up with that
> somewhat humourous write-up of his impressions of the line. Thanks,
> Skyflight, BTW.
Yeah, I'm sure it did. It was pretty thorough, and I enjoyed reading most
of it. At times I thought it was a little harsh, but, nothing I couldn't
stomach. Obviously, we have some pretty vehemant Skyflight-bashers,
though, who have developed a tender spot where he tends to poke.
--Steve-o
Buster & Hydra's Masterforce/Victory subtitling project needs donations!
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Stonebraker | Transformers FAQ Keeper | Astrophysicist
sst...@yahoo.com | www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb | AOL IM: srstoneb
Suspsy
> I can only presume they're not self-aware enough to understand what they
> feel doesn't equal reality.
Ah yes. This coming from the individual who calls himself a Decepticon, and
insists that because we humans consume meat and vegetable products, we
therefore have no right to condemn, oppose, or resist an alien race of
genocidal tyrants hellbent on draining our world of its natural resources or
simply blowing it up and killing us all. Self-awareness and reality indeed.
Or else are so lacking in the most basic
> elements of logic they don't understand how if you apply one standard to
one
> person, it must also apply to you.
Sorry, but I don't see how responding to your rather premature
critique/condemnation of Armada equates "shouting down." You're perfectly
free to express your farfetched interpretation of the TF universe and your
instant dislike of any TF product that doesn't conform to your rigid ideals,
just as much as I'm free to express my positive feelings on Armada, BW, RID,
etc. And just as people are free to counter my viewpoint, so too am I free
to counter yours. How then, am I failing to live up to my own standards?
Thanks for being one of the few to point
> out the contradiction in people shouting loudly that X is the greatest
thing
> ever with no qualification, then scold me for not qualifying my statements
to
> the contrary.
I must say that I find it both sad and amusing how the only person who's
spoken up for you thus far happens to be a complete jerk.
Susp, but hey, that's just my interpretation of him.
"The ones who tried to hurt you are called Decepticons." -Optimus Prime
Skyflight
: I fail to understand this sentiment. Why do people want boxy, clunky,
Speaking for myself, they *don't* have the same aesthetics. All the Beast
Machines/Car Robots/Armada toys have the same basic problem that they're way
too detailed. It's like every inch of surface area must be crammed full of
panel lines and pipes, indentations, outcroppings. Most of them have weird
rounded bits, usually the upper legs. Compare this to toys like Jetfire and
Shockwave. Compare it to the G1 cartoon models. Believe me, I wouldn't just
dislike the toys on the basis of disliking the concept. I dislike Star
Saber, and still love the Mega PVC visually. The new vehicle-based robots
are just ugly UGLY things to me that seem way too much like Autobot X after
being partially melted.
Skyflight
: Starscream has Megatron's helmet? I don't follow. Starscream's head
: looks almost exactly as his original namesake's head did.
It's the forehead (so to speak) and the way the eyes are against it. Looking
at it closely, it's also the shape of the eyes and especially how the two
side bits look like Megatron's helmet sides. I've cropped out the other
detail in this shot. Tell me it doesn't look like some comic drawings of G2
Megatron.
Decepticon-Empire.org/images/ASS_Face.jpg
Original photo from Altered States Magazine, used for educational purposes
Skyflight
: And this said whilst ignoring all of the good points of Armada and its
: predecessors. Everything will have its pluses and minuses, especially in the
Thing is, I don't see any pluses, or I would have mentioned them. Everything
I've seen is uniformly awful. Sure they're posable, but that's hardly a big
accomplishment with the technology available today. It's like saying they all
have paint. I'd much rather have a visually appealing brick toy than 50
points of articulation on a hideously ugly toy.
: The same concerns were voiced about BW and look how it turned out.
Rather exactly my point..
Pyre
>
> The difference, I think, is that the original Inferno was a fairly minor
> player, who only got the spotlight in a handful of episodes and was eventually
> forgotten about. BW Inferno was featured far more prominently in many more
> episodes, and made the name very much his own. Same deal with BW Rampage.
>
That's a good point. But what about BW Megatron? He very much made that
name his own. I just think it's too soon to tell if some of the Armada
names are misplaced or not until we know more about the characters.
> but how can you hear the name Grimlock and *not* think of
> giant robot dinosaurs with big, nasty, pointy teeth?
Again, good point and one I agree with. However, I also think it supports
my argument. When you or I hear that name we think of the original
character, despite there being this new character with that name. I just
don't agree with the sentiment that new characters with old names dilutes
the old characters which is what folks like Skyflight keep saying. The
old characters will always be there, and while new fans may not know about
them, there's plenty of media out there to help them become familiar with
them. It's like Sipher once pointed out about the whole "RiD will kill
G1" arguments. "I can't imagine how you can actually "kill" G1. I mean,
unless RiD will come into each of our houses, melt down our toys, erase
our hard drives, steal our tapes and erase our memories... G1 won't be
"dead". Same applies here I think.
Pyre
>
> That's what they do each and every time they slap the names on new toys.
> There's a reason they didn't call the captain of the Enterprise in Next
> Generation Captain Kirk 2.
False analogy. The Star Trek franchise does not rely on kids buying toys
to support itself. Also, first and foremost, Star Trek is a TV show
first. The toys that are based on said show are insignificant.
Transformers is a toyline first and foremost.
> One could make all the same arguments I've been
> hearing here, Kirk is instantly recognizable, putting Kirk's name on a toy
> would assure it sells so they'd be stupid not to.
Aren't there several different variants of the Kirk figure out there?
There's several different variants on Picard. If those figures sell, then
it makes perfect sense to make more figures of that character in different
outfits or environments.
Pyre
> "Steve-o's a self-righteous ****wit" versus "I wish Steve-o
> would post more TF content and less 'can't-we-all-get-along' meta
> stuff." Both have essentially the same objective content -- although the
> latter is a bit more specific -- but one of them is mean and the other
> isn't.
As the saying goes, you attract more flys with honey than you do with vinegar.
Ninja99
"Suspsy" <danie...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:qJGc8.1288$EYv...@news1.bloor.is...
> "Skyflight" <Skyf...@Decepticon-Empire.org> wrote in message
>
> > outline of the cartoon seems to be circulating. So, what exactly do we
> have?
>
> It's your precious G1 revival, dude.
It is indeed. It seems that Hasbro has finally decided to (more or less) recognize
the older fans. Sure, they SAY it's just for kids, but it can't be a coincidence that
this is the exact type of line/series fans have been screaming for for years. Yep,
the next few years are going to be G1 fanboy heaven.
> > So far as I can determine, a hodge-podge of former ideas, all of them bad.
>
> "all of them I, Skyflight, personally hate," you mean.
Quite. Skyflight, this is the type of statement that can lead to flame wars. In
situations like this, it's very important to stress that what you're saying is _your
opinion_ and your opinion alone. If you fail to stress this point, your comments
could be misunderstood or misinterpreted and people might take offense. (Kinda how I
did when I first read your post...)
> because obviously
> > Prime and Megatron are pieces of property to be milked for every nickel
> that
> > can be squeezed instead of cornerstones of a mythology who are special
> exactly
> > because they're unique.
>
> Obviously, because that's precisely what they are, property. They're the
> property of Hasbro, and Hasbro can do whatever they want with them without
> having to give a hoot about whether or not it'll offend you or any other
> hardcore G1ers.
>
> That having been said, I am admittedly getting a bit tired with Optimus and
> Megatron over and over again as the leaders. Hopefully, the Armada ones will
> turn out similar to the ones from Beast Wars, who actually *surpassed* the
> original Prime and Megatron in many ways. Especially BW Megatron.
Woo! Now I know I'm not the only one who feels that way about BW Megs. :-) Just
don't let Raksha hear you say that.... She'll eat you alive for such blasphemy! ;^)
> > Finally, ressurect the first bad gimmick of the Transformers line,
> *Masters.
> > Blend all ingredients and half-bake.
>
> The result: something that will likely be a huge hit with kids and
> collectors (most of 'em) alike, earning Hasbro tons of well-deserved cash
> and ensuring that TFs will continue as a toy line for years to come. God,
> life is beautiful.
It is indeed. *insert warm fuzzy feelings here*
> > Leave the originals alone. If the trademarks need to be protected, that's
> > simple enough. Import the PVCs of those characters as limited edition
> > specials, perhaps to be given out at BotCon.
>
> Screw that, Skyf. SCREW THAT. 3H isn't going to replace their sweet
> recoloured toys with dull little PVCs that have far less appeal and play
> value. It's merely a fantasy, just like your Victory fantasy. Neither will
> ever come true. Deal with it.
Heh, all I know is that if 3H had decided to give me an Optimus Prime PVC instead of
my precious Shokaract, I would have had to kill something. @_@
> And proceed with the current
> > plans, reboot every couple of years, with *new* leaders and characters.
> Keep
> > it all within the same continuity, but don't pin it down as definitely
> being
> > the only continuation of this comic or that cartoon. There's a lot of
> > universe, a lot of time periods, and a lot of Transformers.
>
> Skyf, I actually agree with you on this (I'm shocked too). I really would
> like to see an expansion of the TF universe, with new characters, new
> worlds, and new time periods.
That's something I'd really like to see as well. I can't speak for everyone else, but
I'm getting rather tired of Megs/Prime rehash characters...
> In the mean time, I'm going to revel in the joy that is Armada.
>
> Susp, say it loud, say it proud: ARMADA RULES!
>
> "Life is good." -BW Rampage
Amen to that!
In another post I commented that Armada didn't look particularly impressive. Happily,
I was wrong. Armada is shaping up to be one hell of a series and I can't wait to see
more of what's in store for us fans. The next few years are going to be awesome!
This is truly is a great time to be a fan
-Ninja
--
Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action.
-Goethe
Anthony "Tonyfitz" Brucale
> "Anthony \"Tonyfitz\" Brucale" <tony...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> : And this said whilst ignoring all of the good points of Armada and its
> : predecessors. Everything will have its pluses and minuses, especially in
the
>
> Thing is, I don't see any pluses, or I would have mentioned them.
Everything
> I've seen is uniformly awful. Sure they're posable, but that's hardly a
big
> accomplishment with the technology available today. It's like saying they
all
> have paint. I'd much rather have a visually appealing brick toy than 50
> points of articulation on a hideously ugly toy.
They're posable, yes. They're a freash take on an old idea, yes. They are a
coninuation of a bright point in most people our age's childhoods, yes. The
new toys are trying to appeal to the fun side of play, I don't see how
anyone could see the negative in that.
> : The same concerns were voiced about BW and look how it turned out.
>
> Rather exactly my point..
So, I guess you are afriad that the show/toy line will be interesting and
fun while appealing to both kids and adults while extending and exploring
Transformers mythos while creating memorable and lovable characters?
We should hope not </M Sipher sarcasm>
Just becuase whatever spin Hasbro takes on TF doesn't fit whatever
preconceived notion we've built the idea into does not make the current take
any less valid.
--Ant
David Willis
> : looks almost exactly as his original namesake's head did.
>
> It's the forehead (so to speak) and the way the eyes are against it.
Looking
> at it closely, it's also the shape of the eyes and especially how the two
> side bits look like Megatron's helmet sides. I've cropped out the other
> detail in this shot. Tell me it doesn't look like some comic drawings of
G2
> Megatron.
It doesn't. The entire shape and molded details of Armada Starscream's head
are taken directly from the original toy, but with the face modeled after
the
more humanized media interpretations. The only part of the head that
*isn't*
molded after the original toy other than the face are the vents on the side
of the head, which were originally the inner parts of part of the vehicle
fuselage.
Now they're smaller, integrated into the head, and look as if from the G1
media.
> Decepticon-Empire.org/images/ASS_Face.jpg
That's a... convenient filename. /:)
Now, you can jump up and down all you want over how Armada Starscream's
body doesn't look just like Starscream did in the TV show in the first few
seasons of Transformers in a few key scenes where he was illustrated
properly
to your exacting specifications, but that head is dead on. It's THE closest
"redesign"
of a character's head from an earlier toy other than Goldbug. Even Optimus'
helmet/antenna design changes considerably from remake to remake, but THIS
toy is SPOT ON. Absolutely no reinterpretation other than the fact his
"crest"
(for lack of a better word) is painted red. Big deal.
From a purely asthetic and conceptual sense, this toy looks more like
"Starscream"
to me than any other previous toy has. It has partly something to do with
the
fact that the previous ones weren't gay enough ;), but the power, the sneer,
the
vanity are all there, manifested in his design.
Quite frankly, I think the original toy is an insult to THIS Starscream.
--David
www.itswalky.com
Suspsy
> It seems that Hasbro has finally decided to (more or less) recognize
> the older fans. Sure, they SAY it's just for kids, but it can't be a
coincidence that
> this is the exact type of line/series fans have been screaming for for
years. Yep,
> the next few years are going to be G1 fanboy heaven.
I agree with all your points, except that Hasbro's been recognizing the
older fans for years now. Why else would they put all those blurbs in the
Deployers' tech specs? Or that TM2 Prowl believes himself to have been a
great strategist in a previous life?
> Woo! Now I know I'm not the only one who feels that way about BW Megs.
:-)
Of course you're not. BW Megs is a sleek, shiny Lexus; G1 Meggy is a clunky
old Honda with a replacement passenger side door. BW Megs is filet mignon;
G1 Meggy is a Slim Jim. BW Megs is an admiral; G1 Meggy is the assistant
bilge cleaner.
Which would, of course, make RID Meggy the head bilge cleaner.
>Just don't let Raksha hear you say that.... She'll eat you alive for such
blasphemy! ;^)
Somehow, that doesn't scare me in the slightest.
> Heh, all I know is that if 3H had decided to give me an Optimus Prime PVC
instead of
> my precious Shokaract, I would have had to kill something. @_@
So would I. The PVCs aren't without their charm, but they're definitely
aimed at a very small target group. Too small, in fact. That's why the idea
of Hasbro releasing them doesn't float.
> In another post I commented that Armada didn't look particularly
impressive. Happily,
> I was wrong. Armada is shaping up to be one hell of a series and I can't
wait to see
> more of what's in store for us fans. The next few years are going to be
awesome!
> This is truly is a great time to be a fan
Yes, it is. In fact, the last several years have been a great time to be a
fan.
Susp, and yes, that includes Beast Machines
"We can beat Decepticons anytime, anywhere!" -Big Daddy
Vincent K. Armas
> The Armada line is officially announced, the toy pics are up, the vague
> outline of the cartoon seems to be circulating.
Um, at the risk of being flamed for being lazy, where can I find the
toy pics? :) Couldn't find any pics at Hasbro.com.
David Willis
> toy pics? :) Couldn't find any pics at Hasbro.com.
--David
www.itswalky.com
Paul Segal
>
>Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor wrote:
>calling
>> it Final Fantasy World. Uh, no, it's not actually an RPG, and it doesn't
>have
>> anything at all to do with the previous Final Fantasy titles, but we
>already
>> owned the rights to the name, so we figured we could sell a totally
>unrelated
>when
>> put in different context like this?
>
>basically had nothing really to do with each other.
That's an oversimplification. None of the FF games directly continue the plot
of a predecessor, but...
Final Fantasy games tend to have a lot of similar plot elements, and the combat
system has grown over the years but always keeps the same basic controls and
functions. The methods of learning magic also change over time, but keep the
same basic themes (In FFs 6 through 9 you equip something to learn or use magic
or affect your abilities, be it weapons and armor, magic stones, or individual
spells "drawn" from enemies). They've got a lot of cliches that stay in place,
like an evil empire / government / corporation that's the initial villain and
is then replaced by something more magical and evil, and a member of the party
being the last survivor of an ancient magical race... and a lot of smaller
thematic elements are carried over, like chocobos (big yellow birds that people
ride), moogles (cute lil teddy-bear/cats with wings and an antenna with a
pom-pom on it), and dragoons (spear-carrying warriors who can jump so high that
it takes them a whole combat turn to fall back down and land on the enemy)...
also a lot of place names and character names (there's a "Cid" in nearly every
FF game).
Now, if Square made an action game or a racing game or something and called it
Final Fantasy XII, that would be the sort of thing Zobo's talking about.
Not that they haven't... Square tried to use FF7 characters to sell (reportedly
awful) fighting game Ehrgeiz, and has released other spinoffs such as the
Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon series of monotonous dungeon crawls.
Also, there was Final Fantasy Tactics, which was a good game, though it
dispensed with FF's traditional combat system (but kept many thematic elements)
and Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, which was a sort of "entry-level" FF for
younger players unfamiliar with RPGs, and as such had almost no plot and
simplified combat (though it kept the "four elemental fiends" motif from the
first FF).
-Paul Segal
Email: aster...@yahoo.com ICQ: 24024819 AIM: asterphage
http://www.crosswinds.net/~asterphage
Wishin' I was livin' like a hitman
Paul Segal
>
>Zobovor, finds it terribly ironic that "Cobra Commander" actually *is* a
>title, but only applies to a single character, whereas the name "Megatron"
could
>refer to four or five separate entities at this point...
>
Actually, Cobra Commander was replaced for quite a while in the comics by a
Crimson Guardsman, one of the "Fred" series (whose faces were physically
identical through surgery, and were sort of the elite of the already elite
CGs), who was part of the group that thought they'd killed the original CC. He
pulled off this masquerade with the cooperation of the Baroness, who knows the
original CC's face and claimed Fred (VII? I forget his number) was the real
thing in exchange for his favor.
Paul Segal
Heh. Very astute...
Whirlaway
> That having been said, I am admittedly getting a bit tired with Optimus and
> Megatron over and over again as the leaders. Hopefully, the Armada ones will
> turn out similar to the ones from Beast Wars, who actually *surpassed* the
> original Prime and Megatron in many ways. Especially BW Megatron.
I heartily applaud this last bit :) B&L did such a wonderful job
with the series I even got my mom to watch a few episodes... that
being said, anyone have word on who the Armada series writer/s will
be?
-Whirlaway
Irrellius Spam of the Potato People
news:a50ql1$jdu$2...@reader1.panix.com...
Everything
> I've seen is uniformly awful. Sure they're posable, but that's hardly a
big
> accomplishment with the technology available today. It's like saying they
all
> have paint. I'd much rather have a visually appealing brick toy than 50
> points of articulation on a hideously ugly toy. >>
I feel I havce to beat this into your skull, HASBRO WILL NOT REISSUE G1! And as
for posability, THESE ARE TOYS NOT STATUES! We (most of the fan community)
don't want another Mcfarlane-ish line of bricks. They aren't that fun.
<<Speaking for myself, they *don't* have the same aesthetics. All the Beast
Machines/Car Robots/Armada toys have the same basic problem that they're way
too detailed. >>
So not only do you want to eliminate joints, but you want to reduce detail.
Good things as I see them-
-These toys are complicated and posable. Most people see it as good thing. You
can actually play with toys. They don't just stand there and have only an elbow
or shoulder joint in order to point their gun forwards. Toys you can play with,
novel idea.
-Part integration-The new Starscream doesn't have a multitude of small parts
you can easily lose and have a parapelegic jet or robot. I consider that a
plus. Also, all parts that are removable have a place they can go in any mode.
You don't have 4 missiles, while only 2 can be used at a time.
-No more stickers. You don't have to wory about your stickers getting wet or
fading.
-complex paint apps. Something G1 never had. G1 had chrome, some facial
details, and that's mostly it. We get actual paint designs. Definite Plus
-NEW TOYS. Why would any collector want old toys? Especially if they already
have them in some form. I know I prefer my G1 originals to any reissue,
besides, Hasbro would likely recolor stupid things so as not to have new
releases confused with old ones. By not reissuing old series, hasbro is
pandering to the fans. The fans are the ones who have already seen the old
series, bought older toys, and had the Japanese toys imported.
Face it, you wouldn't be happy with any new toys. Even a posable G1 Starscream,
because it wouldn't be 100% show accurate, which can't be done in this plane of
reality while still having him transformable.
Junkman
toy's I mean. I know how much you love the US show, note obvious
sarcasm, the japanese shows, as is apparent in your arguement to bring
forth Victory or Headmasters. But what about the toy's that came with
those shows, would you buy them? If you wouldn't, then why post about
the Armada toys? If neither toyline, note TOYLINE, appeals to you,
then don't worry about it. Focus on the show when it comes out. On
the other hand...
Skyflight <Skyf...@Decepticon-Empire.org> wrote in message news:<a50ql1$jdu$2...@reader1.panix.com>...
>
> Thing is, I don't see any pluses, or I would have mentioned them. Everything
> I've seen is uniformly awful. Sure they're posable, but that's hardly a big
> accomplishment with the technology available today. It's like saying they all
> have paint. I'd much rather have a visually appealing brick toy than 50
> points of articulation on a hideously ugly toy.
Why you choose to snip paragraphs full of opposing opinion, rather
then argue them is beyond me. Going with your trend in argueing I
assume the next paragraph will be snipped, but I'll write it out
anyway.
What you would find visually appealing is a question for the ages.
Apparently, you dislike realistic looking alt modes, anythng organic,
Tech vehicles, ie vehicons and almost every transformer after 1985,
and not even that as none of the Decepticon Jets are realistic when
you get down to it, nor is Omega Supreme, Shockwave or the
insecticons, but then you don't like that either. Apparently, Robotic
Animals are out too, which elimates BM, the later part of BW, the
Predacons, Seacons, Abominus, the Decepticon Headmasters, and
countless others including Ravage and Laser Beak. Do you like the
visual aspect of any Transformer toy EVER? Or do you simply apply a
double standard to newer toys because you dislike the shows?
>
> : The same concerns were voiced about BW and look how it turned out.
>
> Rather exactly my point..
A huge financial success that spawned toys which are amazingly fun to
play with?
Thats the best I can hope for. Of course, you and I are coming from
completely different view points as all I care about is the toys and
all you seem to hold dear are the fiction.
Junkman TTLB
www.littlebox.org
Axis Dragoon
>Aren't there several different variants of the Kirk figure out there?
>There's several different variants on Picard. If those figures sell, then
>it makes perfect sense to make more figures of that character in different
>outfits or environments.
>
True, but the character always remains the same. Only the details change. Gator
Megs, T-Rex Megs, TM Megs, TM2 Megs, and the BM Mini-Megs are all the same
character, so that reasoning works. But RiD Megs (as far as we know) is a
different character in a different time, as is G1 Megs, and most likely Armada
Megs.
Personally, I don't have a problem with name re-use in itself. But using the
same name for all the lead villains is a little silly, and minor character
names like Prowl that get slapped onto something new every year really deserve
some time off. Prowl had, what? Two in Beast Wars, one in Beast Machines, two
and a recolor in RiD. . .
Axis
Jackpot
>
> It's the forehead (so to speak) and the way the eyes are against it.
<snip>
> Decepticon-Empire.org/images/ASS_Face.jpg
BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!
Niiiice file name. I approve.
Though I, of course, disagree almost entirely with your assessment. I
*will* say that I noticed the Megatronny forehead-crease the first time
I saw it. G1 Screamer had two slats running up his forehead with a gap
in between, where a little box protruded.
Now, you cropped it off, but Armscream's upper forehead DOES have
features very reminiscent of that:
http://www.alteredstatesmag.com/mar2002/graphics/tf/StarscreamClose1.jpg
Not exactly the same as G1, but there's an obvious parallel.
> Looking
> at it closely, it's also the shape of the eyes and especially how the two
> side bits look like Megatron's helmet sides.
I don't think eye-shape was ever consistent enough in G1 artwork to use
as a criticism. And his little side-panel-thingies are only similar to
Megatron's in that they're bent inward a few degrees instead of going
straight out, as they did in G1. That's an incredibly slight design
change, I'd say.
All in all, I do think this is a hell of a good Starscream face. It's
got little changes, but hey, you get a new body, you might as well tweak
your helmet a bit too. And he has the most appropriate expression I've
ever seen on a TF toy.
>Tell me it doesn't look like some comic drawings of G2
> Megatron.
Funny you brought that up. Check out the last panel on this page:
http://www.rapido-online.net/g2archive/us/thecomic/images/08_page09.jpg
- Jackpot
--
| To contact me, please e-mail aquamandible [at] yahoo [dot] com.
|
| _ _ ______ http://spektakle.com ______ _ _
"The `k's are for the kwality!"
GARDNER1138
of which are identifiable as being based on a real vehicle, some not. On top
of that, you've got these little micro-TF's running around, some of which merge
with the larger TF's. Plus there's the requisite human-anime-child element.
And that, in a
nutshell, is Victory.
Or was I describing Armada? Hmm. >>
And, that was one of my points, and I think, Skyflight's. If you're going to do
a silly, anime-based, tech-and-real, out-of-western-continuity with cutesy
little kids and micro sized toys (that lays claim to be a continuation of G1,
but isn't [in the western continuity]), it's already been done for you, Hasbro
folks! All it required was a little research, it seems to find the next big
thing. But, noone over at Hasbro wants to acknowledge anything TF prior to
1995, it would appear.
"And the old becomes new again."
GARDNER1138
entirely from one another... >>
Yes, but is 'Steve' his only name. No? It's simply part of his name. But, it
would get confusing and out of hand if they all were named Steve Q. Harrison,
wouldn't it? And that's the case with TFs. It's not like they're just using the
Prime or Optimus part, but they're using his entire name--Optimus Prime. Same
with Megatron. I could accept that the -atron part would be a common part of a
name for malevolent rulers of the empirical Decepticons, or even the "Mega"
portion, but when you use his whole title, then I expect an episode of RiD or
Armada to stop mid-action and the cronies to ask "Wait. Which Megatron do we
work for again?"
<< And as for Megatron, we call always consider it a term much like Caesar in
ancient Rome. >>
Again, that wasn't their full title, to their peers, and to us, the spectators
of history. Julius, Augustus--these were there names, and Caesar was there
titles. So, it's not stretching it, it's a misapplication to say that Megatron
alone is like Caesar or Commander or Emperor.
ExVeeBrawn
> Cyb <c...@frad.org> wrote:
> : Starscream has Megatron's helmet? I don't follow. Starscream's head
> : looks almost exactly as his original namesake's head did.
>
> It's the forehead (so to speak) and the way the eyes are against it. Looking
> at it closely, it's also the shape of the eyes and especially how the two
> side bits look like Megatron's helmet sides. I've cropped out the other
> detail in this shot. Tell me it doesn't look like some comic drawings of G2
> Megatron.
>
> Decepticon-Empire.org/images/ASS_Face.jpg
....boy. THAT is a loaded file name, ain't it? /:)
Still, I see more Starscream than anything else in that. I mean, he's
no less Starscream looking than Armada Prime is Prime looking.
Hrm. There's some G2 comic look in Starscream's face too. Kinda.
It doesn't looks like some comic drawings of G2 Megatron.
Anthony "Tonyfitz" Brucale
news:20020220182130...@mb-cd.news.cs.com...
> << I know several people named "Steve," but my brain can differenciate
them
> entirely from one another... >>
>
> Yes, but is 'Steve' his only name. No? It's simply part of his name.
No, but I noted afterward that each Steve had a notable characteristic.
Thus, by referring to later incarnations of Prime and Megs by their series
(Rid, Armada, etc) we already define which character we are talking about in
conversation, thus naming conventions to the original become irrelevant.
[snip rest, the above answer applies to the whole]
--Ant
M Sipher
news:3C742ACF...@hotmail.com...
> Skyflight wrote:
>
> > Looking
> > at it closely, it's also the shape of the eyes and especially how the
two
> > side bits look like Megatron's helmet sides.
>
> I don't think eye-shape was ever consistent enough in G1 artwork to use
> as a criticism.
I don't think G1 ARTWORK was ever consistant enough to use as a criticism.
> All in all, I do think this is a hell of a good Starscream face. It's
> got little changes, but hey, you get a new body, you might as well tweak
> your helmet a bit too. And he has the most appropriate expression I've
> ever seen on a TF toy.
Yes. It's called "tweaking the design". It's called "new look, same feel".
G1 did it with its rare same-character-new-toy takes, like PowerMaster
Prime, the Classic Pretenders, the Action Masters. BW did it with the
Transmetal versions of old characters, an aspect I wish HAD carried over to
BM. But ah well.
M "Still, It's Nice Primal Got His OWN Skull For A Little While" Sipher
--
King Weasel Productions - home of the productions of King Weasel!
Transformers, RockMan, original art, the solutions to all life's problems
and other crap!
http://members.fortunecity.com/msipher
Home of That Big Transformers Variations List and MegaMan/RockMan Toy &
Merchandise Archive!
Jenna
<Skyf...@Decepticon-Empire.org> writes:
>The Armada line is officially announced, the toy pics are up, the vague
>outline of the cartoon seems to be circulating. So, what exactly do we have?
>So far as I can determine, a hodge-podge of former ideas, all of them bad.
Well the Minicons are a new idea, they are not EXACTLY like Head Masters since
they also change into vehicles, and the Head Masters could only turn into
heads....
>Just so this isn't a completely negative rant, here's what I think Hasbro
>should have done instead. Translate Victory.
Oh no, please don't give us any more anime....... =)
>Keep
>it all within the same continuity, but don't pin it down as definitely being
>the only continuation of this comic or that cartoon. There's a lot of
>universe, a lot of time periods, and a lot of Transformers.
I agree with you Skyflight, there is SO much about TFs they have not even
touched, why tell the same story all over again. I do not want to read about
the Autobots and Decepticons waking up all over again, since I already know how
THAT happened..... =)
Yours, Jen One
Please visit my web site! =)
http://members.aol.com/TFJenOne/Home.html
Anthrax
> There's a reason they didn't call the captain of the Enterprise in Next
> Generation Captain Kirk 2.
Did anyone else see the irony in this statement?
Anthrax.....reusing vehicle names: "okay." Reusing character names" "bad."
Exatron
"GARDNER1138" <gardn...@cs.com> wrote:
> << I know several people named "Steve," but my brain can differenciate
> them entirely from one another... >>
>
> Yes, but is 'Steve' his only name. No? It's simply part of his name.
> But, it would get confusing and out of hand if they all were named Steve
> Q. Harrison, wouldn't it?
Initially it might be confusing, but that feeling would pass once you
become familiar with each of them.
I knew two girls named Rebecca Lewis when I was in the seventh grade, but
was able to differentiate between them quite easily.
George Foreman named all of his sons after himslef.
Hasbro reusing names of Transformers is like a parent naming his or her
child after a relative.
--
Exatron
"The mind is the greatest weapon." - Onslaught
The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
Trent Troop
Skyflight <Skyf...@Decepticon-Empire.org> wrote in message
news:a50pv5$jdu$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> Cyb <c...@frad.org> wrote:
> : Starscream has Megatron's helmet? I don't follow. Starscream's head
> : looks almost exactly as his original namesake's head did.
>
> It's the forehead (so to speak) and the way the eyes are against it.
> at it closely, it's also the shape of the eyes and especially how the two
> detail in this shot. Tell me it doesn't look like some comic drawings of
G2
> Megatron.
>
> Decepticon-Empire.org/images/ASS_Face.jpg
>
Ah... yes... lets see.. you cropped in pretty close there, intentionally, I
can only surmise, to eliminate the majority of the similarities. For equally
educational purposes, I whipped up this little comparison:
http://www.psend.com/users/trentulas2/compare.jpg
As you can see, I've got the photo of Starscream's head, with all of it
visible, compared to the model sheet of G1 starscream's face, taken from
Takara's Gen-1 site. Now, lets start off with major identifiable structures.
Beginning with the side-vents on the head, which are obviously the same
structure, albiet moved up and back a bit (Blue). These frame the helmet
structure Starscream had underneath his vents, in green, which, while
smoothed and with a bit more detail, is far from the more exaggerated
Megatron bucket-helmet you compare it to. From there we move to the face,
which has the pronounced, sharp edged eye-to-cheekbones (red), a decidedly
familiar smirk and a chin dimple that matches pretty safely. Then we have
the forehead vent, in yellow, which has slid down a little and has shifted
in its orientation, but is still there. And to either side are the other two
bits of geometry from the original, only slid up and modified to mirror the
look of his "Ear" vents (purple).
The only real additions to the design are the V forhead peice and the
chin-gaurd. Minor additions to the look. It would certainly be a very big
coincidence for all these features to make their way onto a new Starscream
toy without it being an intentional design choice.
-Trent
Trent Troop
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor <zob...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020220024520...@mb-mo.aol.com...
> ...Hasbro is just about the only company I know of that pulls this
routine,
> too. You don't see SquareSoft going, "Here's our latest game! We're
calling
> it Final Fantasy World. Uh, no, it's not actually an RPG, and it doesn't
have
> anything at all to do with the previous Final Fantasy titles, but we
already
> owned the rights to the name, so we figured we could sell a totally
unrelated
> game based on the title alone!" Doesn't this sound daft to anyone else
when
> put in different context like this?
Actually, yo do. Square renamed several non Final-Fantasy games into Final
Fantasy Adventures on Gameboy. And then there was the movie.
And this is a pretty daft comparison for the point you're trying to make.
Lets see, Final Fantasy games are all pretty much unrelated, but with a few
recurrent themes. There's an airship, there's a character named Cid, who's
usually pretty smart, there are chocobos, there are moogles (not all the
time, though), and if there's any summoning to be done, you're gonna see an
Odin and a Bahamut. And up until Final Fantasy X, if there was a main
character, his defining feature would be not talking much, and emoting
through shrugs.
And how different is this from TF? There's an Optimus and a Megatron,
there's energon, there's transformation, there's a matrix, there's a
transformation lock weapon in most of them, there's a kid friendly brash
hero who is quite often yellow, they hail from Cybertron and there's been a
civil war, usually over resources.
Sounds VERY Final Fantasy like. Except that up unitl BM you could stack most
TF series in a rough chronology, when the final fantasy games are all
self-contained "Alternate universes"
-Trent
Skyflight
: Ah yes. This coming from the individual who calls himself a Decepticon, and
This coming from someone who has absolutely no clue what I actually
advocate or think as evidenced by your laughable summations that are totally
wrong. I don't know any smaller words to use.
: Sorry, but I don't see how responding to your rather premature
: critique/condemnation of Armada equates "shouting down." You're perfectly
I don't see what that has to do with anything I said, given I never used the
term shouting down, nor made any sort of implication that expressing a view
was in any way bad. Once again you seem incapable of grasping fudemental
concepts. And for yet another thread, I'm done with you.
--
Skyflight - Decepticon, ATTCM co-moderator, skeptic, maker of stuff
"And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon that is dreaming."
Skyflight
: As the saying goes, you attract more flys with honey than you do with vinegar.
There should however be a corollary that it's not necessarily a good thing
to attract flies.
Quag Prime
hard to tell them apart. I speak from experience as I've MET at least
ten.
-Mike 'Quag' Myers
Paul Segal
>
> And up until Final Fantasy X, if there was a main
>character, his defining feature would be not talking much, and emoting
>through shrugs.
Huh? Cloud talked a lot, even if he was pretty emotionless at first; Squall
might not have talked much, but he had a good bit of internal monologue and
still responded to other people when they talked to him; Zidane talked a lot.
Paul Segal
Makes sense to me. Like, if the Decepticon leader in Armada was Negatron, a
Darkwing-Duck-esque evil version of Megatron (but not Megs himself) and his
ship was the Star
Drive, that would be perfectly fine. But a new Megatron is awful.
Paul Segal
>
><< I know several people named "Steve," but my brain can differenciate them
>entirely from one another... >>
>
>Yes, but is 'Steve' his only name. No? It's simply part of his name. But, it
>would get confusing and out of hand if they all were named Steve Q. Harrison,
>wouldn't it? And that's the case with TFs. It's not like they're just using
>the
>Prime or Optimus part, but they're using his entire name--Optimus Prime. Same
>with Megatron. I could accept that the -atron part would be a common part of
>a
>name for malevolent rulers of the empirical Decepticons, or even the "Mega"
>portion, but when you use his whole title, then I expect an episode of RiD or
>Armada to stop mid-action and the cronies to ask "Wait. Which Megatron do we
>work for again?"
Well, it's not a problem for them, because the characters in those shows only
know one Megatron. But then, such a problem did come up in Beast Wars...
>
><< And as for Megatron, we call always consider it a term much like Caesar in
>ancient Rome. >>
>
>Again, that wasn't their full title, to their peers, and to us, the
>spectators
>of history. Julius, Augustus--these were there names, and Caesar was there
>titles. So, it's not stretching it, it's a misapplication to say that
>Megatron alone is like Caesar or Commander or Emperor.
>
Actually, Caesar Augustus's real name was Octavius, which he changed to Gaius
Julius Caesar Octavianus after being adopted as the first Gaius Julius Caesar's
heir. Augustus in fact was a title later conferred upon him, meaning
more-or-less the same thing as the adjective "august" means in English - some
later Emperors took on the title Augustus as part of their name as well, though
by that time it was associated with Octavian. Those Romans had plenty of names
to go around, everyone got a few. But I still got confused by the Severi...
Glad I'm not taking a class on Rome anymore.
That said, it would be nice to have Armada Megs introduce himself something
like this; "I am Deathbolt Farshooter, twelfth Megatron of the Decepticon
armies - but you can just call me Megatron, Autobots!"
Then they could call him Megatron for the rest of the series - his soldiers
because it's his title, and the 'Bots because his real name would be too
friendly - but it would be established as his title.
Suspsy
> This coming from someone who has absolutely no clue what I actually
> advocate or think as evidenced by your laughable summations that are
totally
> wrong. I don't know any smaller words to use.
Oh please, do enlighten me as to how I've gotten it wrong. Because you
implied that I'm not self-aware enough to understand what I feel doesn't
equal reality. And yet you've consistently advocated how you feel it's a
reality that humans eating meat is no different from Decepticons terrorizing
humans. I can very easily go to Google and dig up all the posts where you've
referred to yourself as a Decepticon, or all the posts where you've preached
that little "Decepticons>Humans>Cows and Corn" equation of yours. Are you in
denial about having ever made those statements? Or did you just recently
decide that you were wrong to say such things and are now trying to distance
yourself as much as possible from the "old" you? If so, please do tell me so
that I can stop getting it wrong.
>Once again you seem incapable of grasping fudemental concepts. And for yet
another thread, I'm done with you.
And once again, you've utterly failed to address all of my points as befits
a proper discussion. It's like this every time you and I cross paths. You
either ignore half my argument, try to re-direct or expand the topic in
order to avoid getting to the root of the matter, or simply persist in
typing the same tired old stuff over and over again using fancy, empty
words. And you wonder why I get frustrated.
Except this time, you're the one calling it quits. Fine by me.
Susp
"This time, you lose, Megatron!" -Optimus Primal
Paul Segal
You'd really rather have Hasbro recycle old toys and old series than give us
new ideas, new toys, and a new show? Victory is out there already. The toys may
be expensive, and the show may be in Japanese, but it ALREADY EXISTS. Instead,
Hasbro is trying to give us something new. It just baffles me how people can
deride Hasbro for having new ideas, and demand that they instead be lazy, and
recycle something old.
GARDNER1138
My advice would be to not waste any more time (life is too short) or an iota of
aggravation over this.
Hell, don't waste the paint on the buttons of your keyboard on the wastes of
proteins you're arguing with.
The people you're arguing with, they're part of the good ol' boys club with a
secret handshake (*you* catch my drift, eh?). They're not interested in new
members, and they're not interested in different or dissenting opinions. They
were the group of girls in high school that ousted members for being slightly
different--They dress alike, they think alike. This is mob rule.
They know.
They don't care.
They're in denial.
You're just being stonewalled--you think they'd actually concede, or have a
sense of humour about the recipe you wrote up?
You've said you're opinion, Soupy and Pyrite don't agree, and now they're just
trying to get your goat, and you're caught in the middle of it. As I look back
on your original post, you merely stated that you didn't care for any of it,
and offered a solution. Somehow, that offended people. Which, is pretty odd.
Now, it could be a good Transformers year, despite. Dreamwave, Antarctic and
Takara are all putting excellent product. Just forget a few jerks and a kiddie
toyline and look at the bright side of being an adult fan.
ATT, "You will be assimilated"
Aaron F. Bourque
>Anthrax wrote:
>>
>>Skyflight wrote:
>>
>>> There's a reason they didn't call the captain of the
>>> Enterprise in Next Generation Captain Kirk 2.
>>
>>Did anyone else see the irony in this statement?
>>
>>Anthrax.....reusing vehicle names: "okay." Reusing
>>character names" "bad."
>
>Makes sense to me.
Ah. That makes . . . *one* of us . . .
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
CRYOTEK WILL EAT YOUR DREAMS!
--
http://delinquents.keenspace.com/d/20010703.html
http://sinner.keenspace.com/ *COMING SOON!* (really)
Damn the tree and all its kind!
Nothing's impossible in the hot soul.
Paul Segal
>
>From: jask...@aol.com (Paul Segal)
>
>>Anthrax wrote:
>>>
>>>Skyflight wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's a reason they didn't call the captain of the
>>>> Enterprise in Next Generation Captain Kirk 2.
>>>
>>>Did anyone else see the irony in this statement?
>>>
>>>Anthrax.....reusing vehicle names: "okay." Reusing
>>>character names" "bad."
>>
>>Makes sense to me.
>
>Ah. That makes . . . *one* of us . . .
Gah, you snipped the part that I thought made it obviously sarcastic!
CRYOTEK WILL REMOVE YOUR CONTENT!
GARDNER1138
new ideas, new toys, and a new show? Victory is out there already. >>
Yes; but you're talking about collectors. Since we've all decided that
Transformers can only be successful by aiming for the kid's market solely, that
doesn't matter.
Look, I don't even care for the toys that much, since they seem to share the
same shortcomings (minus the microvehicles attached in ten conspicuous places
on most figures), but they're brand spanking new to the US market.
You can say that Victory or Headmasters is already out there, but RiD was "out
there" with Car Robots. If anything, Car Robots was much more familiar, because
many of today's comic shops carry Japanese-only collectibles also.
Victory or Headmasters, toy and show, would be new to kids, which is Hasbro's
demographics. I highly doubt that 8 and 9 year olds would be sitting around
talking how they already downloaded the episodes.
David Willis
> They don't care.
> They're in denial.
Wow.
I guess you're right, man. I am in denial. Everything I said was a lie.
I guess I don't really like Armada at all. All this stuff I thought
looked really cool actually looks like crap.
You have opened my eyes, wise one. I've wasted too much time
on a series of toys I don't actually really like. You've saved me
so much.
Thank you.
THANK YOU.
--David
Internitwits think they know so much.
www.itswalky.com
Aaron F. Bourque
>Skyflight, I sympathize with you (none of this is meant to
>be condescending).
>
>
>My advice would be to not waste any more time (life is too
>short) or an iota of aggravation over this. Hell, don't waste
>the paint on the buttons of your keyboard on the wastes of
>proteins you're arguing with.
>
>The people you're arguing with, they're part of the good ol'
>boys club with a secret handshake (*you* catch my drift,
>eh?). They're not interested in new members, and they're
>not interested in different or dissenting opinions. They
>were the group of girls in high school that ousted members
>for being slightly different--They dress alike, they think
>alike. This is mob rule.
Whoah whoah whoah whoah whoah whoah *whoah*!
What subset of reality have you been reading for the past
few months? Do you honestly *think* this? If so, I am
boggled. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but with the
following caveats:
1) Back up your opinion ("I think this is bad because of a,
b, and c," as opposed to "This just sucks.")
2) Don't be an asshole. ("I guess we're going to have to
agree to disagree on this" as opposed to "Well, you're
wrong and dumb. And ugly.")
Gardner, you started out as an asshole when you first flew
in here. Until Armada hit, you'd been able to refrain from
assholish behavior. But since Armada, you're either showing
your true colors, or . . . I'm not sure what. Vocally stating
your opinion is one thing, but what you've been doing is so
*beyond* just vocal opinionating . . .
And claiming that this place is set up like a clique is
completely missing several points.
1) Skyflight is . . . well, let me just say he's got a reputation.
From what I understand, before Beast Wars (or at least, its
second season) he was a useful contributer to ATT. Now
I dread his name appearing in any thread here, for a variety
of reasons.
2) You may have been having a rough time of late, and your
first few days here may have colored your perception of the
place, but ATT has a very low tolerance rate when it comes
to people stating opinions as facts and implying anyone with
a different one is lacking in intellect. As it should be, for
everyone is entitled to their opinion, and no one has the
right to lessen that opinion for any reason.
3) AR is more a return to G1 than RD was. There were few,
if any, shell-formers in G1. The AR toys are closer to
brickish and blocky than any toys since the rereleases of
G2. We're getting obscure characters like Red Alert. We're
getting Starscream, for Pete's sake, the first American
Starscream since his Classic Pretender and Hero of
Cybertron days! We're *getting* G1 with Beast Wars like
posability *and* lots of playability for kids of all ages. There
may be some stinkers of the line, and I'm probably not going
to appreciate the Minicons for being pinnacles of TF-isity,
but at least they have a purpose, whereas the Micro Masters
were basicaly just wastes of plastic.
4) You don't like it? Fine. You've said so, repeating it so
much only makes you look like a jerk.
>They know.
>They don't care.
>They're in denial.
Know what? Don't care about what? In denial about
*what*?
As far as I can see, you and Skyflight are in denial,
because Hasbro hasn't read your minds and isn't doing
precisely what you want.
>You're just being stonewalled--you think they'd actually
>concede, or have a sense of humour about the recipe you
>wrote up?
From what I saw (I filter Skyflight's posts), the recipe was
mildly amusing, but read more as sour grapes than anything
else.
>You've said you're opinion, Soupy and Pyrite don't agree,
Suspsy (I know, I don't get it either) and Pyre.
>and now they're just trying to get your goat, and you're
>caught in the middle of it.
Bullshit. From what I can tell, Skyflight's post was more
baiting than anything Sus or Pyre posted.
>As I look back on your original post, you merely stated that
>you didn't care for any of it, and offered a solution.
And as I look back on the replies, Sus and Pyre stated their
counter opinion, and tried to explain why imported and
subbed Victory won't work. To whit: A whole line of scarecly
poseable but pretty bricks really wouldn't fly with kids today
. . . and as much as you fail to acknowledge it, Gardner,
TFs are for the kids, first.
>Somehow, that offended people.
That and Skyflight's reputation.
>Which, is pretty odd.
Not if you know his reputation.
>Now, it could be a good Transformers year, despite.
Could be? It *will* boy, it will.
>Dreamwave, Antarctic and Takara are all putting excellent
>product.
Ur . . . this pains me. A lot. Dreamwave's comic looks nice,
but reads poorly. Anarctic Press isn't affiliated with Hasbro
in any official capacity. And Takara is being praised for
being lazy? Oi.
>Just forget a few jerks and a kiddie toyline
"Kiddie toyline"? Gardner, don't be so fucking stupid. How
many god damn times do you have to be told that the TOY
LINE IS FOR THE KIDS? How many times? HOW MANY
DAMN TIMES? Does it just not sink in? Can you just not
gather that you are, in Hasbro's eyes, not worth as much
effort? Jesus Christ!
>and look at the bright side of being an adult fan.
"Yay. I'm an adult fan. I buy stuff about a toyline, but not
the toyline itself."
What was the URL for that news article about compressed
aging, and how ten-year-olds are no longer considered
a viable toy market because ten-year-olds consider
themselves too grown-up for toys?
>ATT, "You will be assimilated"
::rolls eyes::
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
CRYOTEK KNOWS, DOESN'T CARE, AND IS IN DENIAL!
Ka Faraq Gatri
wrote:
>
>Heh heh. You KNOW that if they ported Victory over here, Star Saber would
>be Optimus and Deathsaurus would be Megatron. Heh heh heh...
Nah, SS would be either Skyfire or Silverbolt. I agree that
Deathsaurus would end up being Megatron, though.
Pyre
>
> You've said you're opinion, Soupy and Pyrite don't agree
Why is it that when the rest of us are trying to have a discussion, you
feel the need to come here and whine? You're being a baby Gardner. If
you don't like Armada, fine. Quit attacking those that do.
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"All that has been. All that is. All that's to be.
Lord I'm just killing time, and time's killing me."
- Zakk Wylde
Aaron F. Bourque
>CRYOTEK WILL REMOVE YOUR CONTENT!
. . .
CRYOTEK WILL STEAL YOUR GAG!
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; I knew it was
sarcastic, I was being funny . . . :(
CRYOTEK WILL EAT YOUR DREAMS!
--
Pyre
>
> Yes; but you're talking about collectors. Since we've all decided that
> Transformers can only be successful by aiming for the kid's market solely, that
> doesn't matter.
>
Kids ARE the target market. Regardless of whether or not you like that,
its a fact. Based on that, I seriously doubt that Victory would sell.
The toys are too old and clunky. As Zob pointed out elsewhere, putting
something like the RiD Commandos in the line isn't so much a problem as
you've got modern toys to help balance things out, but a whole line of
toys like that just wouldn't work. Of coarse they could engineer new toys
based on the Victory media, but if they're going to do that then they
might as well just start fresh and create something new.
> You can say that Victory or Headmasters is already out there, but RiD
> was "out there" with Car Robots.
RiD was a special case. It was filler. Hasbro wanted to have something
on the shelves while they put their efforts into something new. CR was
pretty much ready to go so they went with it. It's not something they'll
keep doing.
Anthrax
> >Anthrax.....reusing vehicle names: "okay." Reusing character names" "bad."
>
> Makes sense to me. Like, if the Decepticon leader in Armada was Negatron, a
> Darkwing-Duck-esque evil version of Megatron (but not Megs himself) and his
> ship was the Star Drive, that would be perfectly fine. But a new Megatron is
> awful.
OH NO! Reusing the name "Enterprise" is OK, but having another Star Drive is
UNACCEPTABLE. There shall only be one Star Drive! I get to choose which name
is available for reuse! And Star Drive isn't on the list!
Anthrax.....amazing how "classic" usually hinges on one's point of view.
Suspsy
> The people you're arguing with, they're part of the good ol' boys club
with a
> secret handshake (*you* catch my drift, eh?). They're not interested in
new
> members, and they're not interested in different or dissenting opinions.
They
> were the group of girls in high school that ousted members for being
slightly
> different--They dress alike, they think alike. This is mob rule.
You're absolutely right, Gard. ATT is indeed run by a secret clique, one
that's unimaginably cool and hip, and has wild parties and massive orgies at
a big Gothic mansion in the Hamptons every full moon. But you won't get to
see or experience any of it, since as you so cleverly deduced, we're not
accepting new members with dissenting opinions.
> They know.
> They don't care.
> They're in denial.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
> You're just being stonewalled--you think they'd actually concede, or have
a
> sense of humour about the recipe you wrote up?
Sorry, but Skyf's recipe was more along the lines of "sad-funny" rather than
"haw-haw-funny."
> You've said you're opinion, Soupy and Pyrite don't agree, and now they're
just
> trying to get your goat, and you're caught in the middle of it. As I look
back
> on your original post, you merely stated that you didn't care for any of
it,
> and offered a solution.
Correctamundo, except that that solution to Armada was akin to offering to
substitute a twelve course banquet with week-old Happy Meals.
>Somehow, that offended people. Which, is pretty odd.
An opinion of Skyf's offending people? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Susp, between Deathy, Skyf, and Gard, ATT is full of funny.
"Ya gotta love that guy." -Rattrap
Cyb
>
> Yes, but is 'Steve' his only name. No? It's simply part of his name. But, it
> would get confusing and out of hand if they all were named Steve Q. Harrison,
> wouldn't it? And that's the case with TFs. It's not like they're just using the
> Prime or Optimus part, but they're using his entire name--Optimus Prime. Same
> with Megatron. I could accept that the -atron part would be a common part of a
> name for malevolent rulers of the empirical Decepticons, or even the "Mega"
> portion, but when you use his whole title, then I expect an episode of RiD or
> Armada to stop mid-action and the cronies to ask "Wait. Which Megatron do we
> work for again?"
Even if they all had the same exact name, can you not still
distinguish them from each other? When you see one Steve Q. Harrison,
do you ask him how his dfate last night went when it was the other
Steve Q. Harrison who had a date? Maybe you confuse them once in a
while, but for the most part not at all.
Same goes for Optimus Prime/Primal and Megatron. Especially Megatron.
The things G1 Megs did BW Megs would never do because the schemes
were just too silly. Same for RID Megs who can't even compare to G1
Megs. They have the same name, but all three are very distinguishable
(sp) characters. No one is going to confuse the three simply because
they have the same name.
And none of them co-existed, so it's pretty safe to assume each Megs'
cronies will know which Megatron they 'work for' since they either
exist in an alternative universe from the others (RID) or don't
coexist in the same timeline (G1 and BW Megs).
Yeah, so I think my point was using the same name for a leader of a
faction, while it may not be overly creative, doesn't change (or it
shouldn't anyway) anything about characters who had that name before.
- Cyb
http://www.angelfire.com/apes/axalon
Paul Segal
>
><< You'd really rather have Hasbro recycle old toys and old series than give
>us new ideas, new toys, and a new show? Victory is out there already. >>
>
>Yes; but you're talking about collectors. Since we've all decided that
>Transformers can only be successful by aiming for the kid's market solely,
>that doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter in economic terms, in terms of how well the toys might
sell... but that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about what I'd
rather have Hasbro do, and what you'd rather have them do. Assuming that both
Victory and Armada would sell equally well to the kids (Which seems to be your
assumption as well), I don't see how anyone would rather have Hasbro re-hash an
old line than make a new line... especially since that's what they did last
year. So Car Robots sold well - unless you think that the defining thing making
it sell well was that it was an imported Japanese series, then that's no reason
for Victory. And if Victory would do as well as Armada, what's your reason for
saying Hasbro should've imported Victory, since you "don't even care for the
toys that much"? Do you just want to save Hasbro some work?
GARDNER1138
<< 1) Back up your opinion ("I think this is bad because of a, b, and c," as
opposed to "This just sucks.") >>
He did so in his post, and I do in mine.
<< 2) Don't be an asshole. ("I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree
on this" as opposed to "Well, you're wrong and dumb. And ugly.") >>
That's funny, the former is a direct quote of mine from yesterday. So, all of a
sudden I'm "not-assholish" for a day?
<< Vocally stating your opinion is one thing, but what you've been doing is so
*beyond* just vocal opinionating . . . >>
Really? I've been physical. Actually, what I've done is less than vocal...I've
been typing, not "yelling" no matter what you say.
<< 1) Skyflight is . . . well, let me just say he's got a reputation.
That's fine. Until he says something about me, or something I disagree with
vehemently, he's a C or better in my book.
>From what I understand, before Beast Wars (or >at least, its second season) he
was a useful >contributer to ATT. Now I dread his name appearing in any thread
here, for a variety
of reasons. >>
That's your beef with him.
<< 2) You may have been having a rough time of late, and your first few days
here may have colored your perception of the place, but ATT has a very low
tolerance rate when it comes to people stating opinions as facts and implying
anyone with
a different one is lacking in intellect >>
Just about everything in here is an opinion.
<< AR is more a return to G1 than RD was. >>
I honestly don't see that. RiD seemed more like the original premises than the
new toys look. We'll see when the media follows. Or not; I don't really care
about that anymore. I've got school, reissues, pool and other things to deal
with.
<< There were few,if any, shell-formers in G1 >>
Eh?
<< The AR toys are closer to brickish and blocky than any toys since the
rereleases of G2. >>
Closer, but not in a bad way, like PM Prime (except maybe Sureshot--he's got
some big legs and a honkin' backpack). They are quite guilty of refrigerator
door syndrome, but it doesn't seem to be feasible to be rid of extra kibble
anymore.
<< We're getting obscure characters like Red Alert. We're getting Starscream,
for Pete's sake, the first American Starscream since his Classic Pretender and
Hero of Cybertron days! >>
In name only, thus far. While the SS is a very nice retread, the Red Alert
bears NO resemblance to his former namesake, and I happen to believe that if a
robot is going to "upgrade" or whatever, that he should keep some
characteristics to let us know, visually, that *yes* that is THE same Red
Alert.
<< We're *getting* G1 with Beast Wars like
posability *and* lots of playability for kids of all ages. >>
Again, because of some name reuse? Not really. Let me say it again--something
of a re-launch, akin to the new MOTU (not a line I totally appreciate)--is a
return of G1 with BW technology.
<< As far as I can see, you and Skyflight are in denial, because Hasbro hasn't
read your minds and isn't doing precisely what you want. >>
No; just see the proverbial writing on the wall. Or, in this case, the
well-selling:
*G1 books
*G1 t-shirts
*G1 reissues
*G1 PVCs
*G1 stickers
*G1 keychains
etc.
But, I've forgotten, we've all agreed that there's NO WAY that today's kids
could appreciate Sunstreaker, Sideswipe, or Hound. We've all done testing and
surveys.
<< From what I saw (I filter Skyflight's posts), the recipe was mildly amusing,
but read more as sour grapes than anything else. >>
I'm sure that was a small part of it. He, like other adult collectors/fans (not
all), feel that G1 and its canon is being abandoned in favor of whatever Hasbro
yarns as the new TF Universe every two years.
<< Suspsy (I know, I don't get it either) and Pyre. >>
Not only do I not get it, but he has intentionally mistyped my name for days,
though I've been careful to properly attribute his quotes.
<< Sus and Pyre stated their counter opinion, and tried to explain why imported
and subbed Victory won't work. >>
See, it sounds like you're saying they have evidence. "...why they believe an
imported and subbed Victory wouldn't work" is more accurate. But,wait, was that
stating an opinion as fact? It was. But, I'm not offended.
<< To whit: A whole line of scarecly poseable but pretty bricks really wouldn't
fly with kids today >>
They're as "bricky" or less than the successful MMPR robots/changers. I don't
see kids giving a fig about poseability.
"Mommy, mommy, I want that toy instead! 18 points of articulation!"
That's something for the adult fans, as evidenced by sales--it's the idea, the
characters, not simply articulation that appeals to kids.
<< . . . and as much as you fail to acknowledge it, Gardner, TFs are for the
kids, first. >>
I *do* realize that Transformers are for kids, first, Bourque, but does that
mean it has to be exclusively for kids? Why can't they aim for crossover
appeal? Star Wars exists as a toyline as much for the kids as the collector,
and is a mainstream line. It is so successful with the collectors that it can
release obscure, non-kid friendly figures like Schmi Skywalker and Alien #452
(seen in SW:ANH for .5 seconds!) on the strength of the collectors, while
releasing the 800th mould of Han and the 48th of Princess Leia for the kiddies.
<< Ur . . . this pains me. A lot. Dreamwave's comic looks nice, but reads
poorly. >>
I'm sorry you feel that way. I enjoyed the pace and feel of the preview, and am
loving the artwork. The fact that they took care to consult Furman means they
care about the canon and the adult fans that will be buying their comics.
<< Anarctic Press isn't affiliated with Hasbro
in any official capacity. >>
I didn't say (or suggest) they were--but they still put out a fine product.
Perhaps I should have said "it could be a good year for adult Transfans"...I
should have known where I was.
<< And Takara is being praised for being lazy? >>
Yeah, for being lazy. No; follow along. For seeing a demand and a discreet lack
of supply, and for trying to meet it. For putting out exacting replicas of some
of the most enigmatic toys ever made.
<< "Kiddie toyline"? Gardner, don't be so fucking stupid. >>
Thank you for perfectly juxtaposing a personification of my criticism right
next to said criticism. That's quite kind of you, Bourque.
<< How many god damn times do you have to be told that the TOY LINE IS FOR THE
KIDS? >>
Six.
That said, why---GODAMMIT--does it have to be aimed and marketed exclusively to
kids? GIJOE is for the collectors and kids, and so is the aforementioned SW. I
understand that kids are the primary target, but why not aim for a
cross-generational phenomenon (like BW)?
<< How many times? HOW MANY DAMN TIMES? Does it just not sink in? >>
You know, Aaron, as lovely as our chats are, you're beginning to go "beyond
vocal opinionating".
<< "Yay. I'm an adult fan. I buy stuff about a toyline, but not the toyline
itself." >>
Get this, Aaron. I like Generation 1, Generation 2 and Beast Wars. Hasbro is no
longer producing a product that has the same feel, the same quality. So, yeah,
I collect things about a highly-collectible, now defunct toyline. You see, with
me, it doesn't begin (or end) with the toys. If it were just about the toys, I
wouldn't be collecting them. In fact, I'd love to just see a well-written book
about them without a current Hasbro-shapeshifting-robots line on the market.
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>>CRYOTEK WILL REMOVE YOUR CONTENT!
>
>. . .
>
>CRYOTEK WILL STEAL YOUR GAG!
...This is turning into one of my favorite running .sigs of all time. :)
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>> Decepticon-Empire.org/images/ASS_Face.jpg
>>
>Ah... yes... lets see.. you cropped in pretty close there, intentionally, I
>can only surmise, to eliminate the majority of the similarities.
Or to more effectively illustrate which features bore a resemblance to
Megatron.
> For equally educational purposes, I whipped up this little comparison:
>
>http://www.psend.com/users/trentulas2/compare.jpg
You know, Trent, instead of going to all that work and practically writing a
treatise on the subject, you could have simply said, "Well, that's your
opinion, but I disagree." :)
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>Actually, Cobra Commander was replaced for quite a while in the
>comics by a Crimson Guardsman, one of the "Fred" series
Yes, I know. Fred was pretending to be the man who was known as Cobra
Commander. It's not as though he assumed leadership using his own identity and
took the title of Cobra Commander. That's the point I was making.
Pyre
>
> He did so in his post, and I do in mine.
Maybe so, but you also go on to insult everyone that doesn't agree with
your opinion as well.
>
> << AR is more a return to G1 than RD was. >>
>
> I honestly don't see that. RiD seemed more like the original premises than the
> new toys look.
RiD may have been a return to G1 in story perhaps, but the toys weren't
really there. The CRiD toyline was more like BWNeo than G1. True the
vehicle modes were very G1ish, but the robot modes were anything but. The
only CRiD toys that I would say fully captured the G1 aesthetic, not
counting the repaints from other lines, were the Build Team. Earthen
vehicle modes that turned into boxy robots. Armada has that in spades.
>
> << There were few,if any, shell-formers in G1 >>
>
> Eh?
Shell-former: A Transformer that consists of an outer shell that splits
apart and contains a folded up robot inside. Examples: Break, Sideburn,
TM2 Cybershark, Rattrap.
>
> Closer, but not in a bad way, like PM Prime (except maybe Sureshot--he's got
> some big legs and a honkin' backpack). They are quite guilty of refrigerator
> door syndrome, but it doesn't seem to be feasible to be rid of extra kibble
> anymore.
With some imagination, kibble shouldn't be an issue. Armada Prime pulls
it off nicely, as does HotShot and Starscream. I don't mind SOME kibble
though. RiD Prowl isn't too bad, aside from his car doors. X-Brawn would
be better without the front-end hanging off his arm. Sideburn has serious
problems though.
>
> and I happen to believe that if a
> robot is going to "upgrade" or whatever, that he should keep some
> characteristics to let us know, visually, that *yes* that is THE same Red
> Alert.
We don't KNOW if it's the same Red Alert though. But the name does suit
the form.
>
> << We're *getting* G1 with Beast Wars like
> posability *and* lots of playability for kids of all ages. >>
>
> Again, because of some name reuse?
Nope. Just going by the toys alone. All the Autobots have a big G1 feel
to me. The Decepticons are more Vehiconish in terms of vehicle modes but
still have the blocky look of G1 robots.
> Not really. Let me say it again--something
> of a re-launch, akin to the new MOTU (not a line I totally appreciate)--is a
> return of G1 with BW technology.
We may yet see that. Who knows? Perhaps next line.
> But, I've forgotten, we've all agreed that there's NO WAY that today's kids
> could appreciate Sunstreaker, Sideswipe, or Hound.
I very much think kids could enjoy those characters, but the actual toys
are too outdated and flawed.
>
> Not only do I not get it, but he has intentionally mistyped my name for days,
> though I've been careful to properly attribute his quotes.
I have done no such thing so I don't see why you felt you should deride my
screen name as well.
>
> See, it sounds like you're saying they have evidence.
We DO have evidence. *points to G2 and MW*
>
> They're as "bricky" or less than the successful MMPR robots/changers. I don't
> see kids giving a fig about poseability.
I haven't been following PR for quite a while, but it looks to me every
time I go to stores, PR are clogging the shelves. Might not be the same
at other stores, but it's what I see here.
> << . . . and as much as you fail to acknowledge it, Gardner, TFs are for the
> kids, first. >>
>
> I *do* realize that Transformers are for kids, first, Bourque, but does that
> mean it has to be exclusively for kids? Why can't they aim for crossover
> appeal?
Because the TF fanbase isn't large enough. There may be so much as 5000
of us, but there's a zillion more kids out there and that's who Hasbro
caters to. However, we still get bones thrown at us every once in a
while. Their continued support of BotCon is proof enough of that.
> Star Wars exists as a toyline as much for the kids as the collector,
> and is a mainstream line.
While kids may buy SW toys, it IS primarily a collector line. The SW
fanbase is HUGE. Easily 100 times bigger than ours if not more so.
> << And Takara is being praised for being lazy? >>
>
> Yeah, for being lazy. No; follow along. For seeing a demand and a discreet lack
> of supply, and for trying to meet it. For putting out exacting replicas of some
> of the most enigmatic toys ever made.
...By releasing the majority of them in agrivatingly small numbers with
exclusivity to various conventions and only 5 or 6 mass released re-issues
a year. Wee. Takara hasn't had a new TF toy on the shelves in damn near
2 years.
> That said, why---GODAMMIT--does it have to be aimed and marketed exclusively to
> kids?
Because that's where the money comes from. Again, our fanbase isn't large
enough to support it's own line.
> GIJOE is for the collectors and kids, and so is the aforementioned SW. I
> understand that kids are the primary target, but why not aim for a
> cross-generational phenomenon (like BW)?
GIJoe and SW are very different from TF. The fanbases are larger, thus
Hasbro can afford to take more risks. As for BW, that was a fluke. It
didn't start out with the intent of being cross-generational. Hasbro just
got lucky that they had story editors for the show that put the effort
into making it that way.
> In fact, I'd love to just see a well-written book
> about them without a current Hasbro-shapeshifting-robots line on the market.
>
Then Dreamwaves G1 comics should be right up your alley.
Ramen Junkie
news:5010d032.0202...@posting.google.com...
> > The plots aren't directly related, and neither are the characters
(despite what
> > some Cid fans might tell you), but if you buy a Final Fantasy game, you
already
> > *know* what kind of game you're getting. It's always going to be an RPG
where
> > you gain experience points and earn money through turn-based battles
while
> > exploring castles, caves, and forests.so that you can buy better armor
and
> > weapons that will enable you to save the world. It's all variations on
a
> > theme.
>
> Right. Except that that describes almost any non-action RPG. And the
> basic Battle system in every FF game is different. And FFX doesn't use
> experience points. And the battles are more time based than turn
> based.
The basic battle system is every FF game is exaclty the same. Heroes line
up on one side, enemies on the other. Pick commands from a menu. The only
major change was the addition of active time battling or whatever. That and
skills I suppose. And don't let the fact that FFx doesn't keep track of
levels fool you. That AP system works just like exp only disguised in a new
name and it makes you work for minor stat increases you would have gotten
anyway. If they really wanted to do away with AP, they would just have
skills, you could equip all the skills you wanted, the more you use that
skill, the more profecient you become. You want to learn stealing. Start
using it. Maybe after 50 or 100 tries your character gets really good at
it.
Aaron F. Bourque
><< 1) Back up your opinion ("I think this is bad because of
>a, b, and c," as opposed to "This just sucks.") >>
>
>He did so in his post, and I do in mine.
Okay, fine. I may have missed it.
><< 2) Don't be an asshole. ("I guess we're going to have to
>agree to disagree on this" as opposed to "Well, you're
>wrong and dumb. And ugly.") >>
>
>That's funny, the former is a direct quote of mine from
>yesterday. So, all of a sudden I'm "not-assholish" for a
>day?
The former may be a direct quote, but the latter fits your
attitude lately better.
><< Vocally stating your opinion is one thing, but what
>you've been doing is so *beyond* just vocal opinionating . .
>. >>
>
>Really? I've been physical. Actually, what I've done is less
>than vocal...I've been typing, not "yelling" no matter what
>you say.
Oh, ha ha. This is a text based medium, so using audial
jargon to describe it is incorrect. It is to laugh.
><< 2) You may have been having a rough time of late, and
>your first few days here may have colored your perception
>of the place, but ATT has a very low tolerance rate when it
>comes to people stating opinions as facts and implying
>anyone with a different one is lacking in intellect >>
>
>Just about everything in here is an opinion.
Oh?
><< AR is more a return to G1 than RD was. >>
>
>I honestly don't see that. RiD seemed more like the original
>premises than the new toys look.
RD was more an attempt at returning the first year or two
of G1 with ugly shellformer kibble machines with girly legs
and asymmetrical designs. AR is a return to a lot of the
many ideas explored in the full line of RD. The only thing
they haven't revived is Pretenders. But maybe we'll get
lucky in wave 2+
><< There were few,if any, shell-formers in G1 >>
>
>Eh?
Shell formers. Back-pack formers. Transformers that
"transform" by opening up he alternate mode, unfolding the
robot mode, and leaving the alternate mode's kibble hanging
off of the robot. The Autobot Bros. are shell formers. Yes,
realistic vehicle forms, but gah, utilize your kibble as part
of you!
><< The AR toys are closer to brickish and blocky than any
>toys since the rereleases of G2. >>
>
>Closer, but not in a bad way,
I agree, not in a bad way.
o.O
>They are quite guilty of refrigerator door syndrome, but it
>doesn't seem to be feasible to be rid of extra kibble
>anymore.
They use their vehicle kibble in their robot mode.
Just. Like. G1.
><< We're *getting* G1 with Beast Wars like
>posability *and* lots of playability for kids of all ages. >>
>
>Again, because of some name reuse? Not really. Let me
>say it again--something of a re-launch, akin to the new
>MOTU (not a line I totally appreciate)--is a return of G1
>with BW technology.
. . .
This *is* that!
>I'm sure that was a small part of it. He, like other adult
>collectors/fans (not all), feel that G1 and its canon is being
>abandoned in favor of whatever Hasbro yarns as the new
>TF Universe every two years.
I still don't see why this is a bad thing.
><< Sus and Pyre stated their counter opinion, and tried to
>explain why imported and subbed Victory won't work. >>
>
>See, it sounds like you're saying they have evidence.
>"...why they believe an imported and subbed Victory
>wouldn't work" is more accurate. But,wait, was that
>stating an opinion as fact? It was. But, I'm not offended.
>
><< To whit: A whole line of scarecly poseable but pretty
>bricks really wouldn't fly with kids today >>
>
>They're as "bricky" or less than the successful MMPR
>robots/changers. I don't see kids giving a fig about
>poseability.
They might, they might not. When I was a kid, it bothered
me that I couldn't pose my toys the way they appeared on
TV.
But as far as I can see, kids like PR for different reasons
than kids would like TFs. With TFs, because character is
such a huge part of it, the kids can imagine they're playing
"with" their favorite characters. With PR, they can imagine
*themselves* as the Rangers, piloting their robots and
beatin' up bad guys.
>Why can't they aim for crossover appeal? Star Wars exists
>as a toyline as much for the kids as the collector, and is a
>mainstream line. It is so successful with the collectors that
>it can release obscure, non-kid friendly figures like Schmi
>Skywalker and Alien #452 (seen in SW:ANH for .5
>seconds!) on the strength of the collectors, while
>releasing the 800th mould of Han and the 48th of Princess
>Leia for the kiddies.
Well, because TFs doesn't have nearly the penetration as
SW. You take a hundred random people off the street, and
they're much more likely to recognise names and
likenesses of Luke Skywalker, Anakin, Darth Vader, Yoda,
Lando, Mace Windu, Stormtroopers, Shmi, yadda yadda
yadda, more readily than Decepticons, Autobots, Optimus
Prime, Megatron, Minibots, etc.
TFs isn't as big as SW. It's not as big as GI*Joe. It's
respectably big, but not big enough to sustain a separate
collector's market.
><< Anarctic Press isn't affiliated with Hasbro in any official
>capacity. >>
>
>I didn't say (or suggest) they were--but they still put out a
>fine product. Perhaps I should have said "it could be a
>good year for adult Transfans"...I should have known
>where I was.
The thing is, though, it's too much a celebration of what has
gone before. Or are you going to continue to buy the
Cybertronian guide if they get to BM and RD?
><< And Takara is being praised for being lazy? >>
>
>Yeah, for being lazy. No; follow along. For seeing a
>demand and a discreet lack of supply, and for trying to
>meet it. For putting out exacting replicas of some
>of the most enigmatic toys ever made.
::sigh::
I guess there's just a difference between what you want from
TFs and what I want. While I would love to see the line
reissued "right," I know it's a pipe dream. I know that the
reissues are of barely playable toys. I know that the PVCs
are little more than glorified Decoys. It would be a
frightening experiment to see G1 reissues in toy stores
again. I really don't think they'd hold up against modern
toylines.
And there are maybe (I think I'm being unbelieveably
generous) 10,000 G1 fans who want reissues (about 5
times the number who attended the last BotCon). If each
reissue sells at $100, that'd be $1,000,000. Subtract
contruction costs, the cost of child-proofing the toys,
the cost of marketing it, the cost of packaging . . . and how
much profit do you have?
><< "Kiddie toyline"? Gardner, don't be so fucking stupid. >>
>
>Thank you for perfectly juxtaposing a personification of my
>criticism right next to said criticism. That's quite kind of
>you, Bourque.
It's called getting fed up of hearing the same dumb argument
over again.
><< How many god damn times do you have to be told that
>the TOY LINE IS FOR THE KIDS? >>
>
>Six.
Then get it already. Marketing to collectors would not make
enough money for Hasbro to justify the expense.
>I like Generation 1, Generation 2 and Beast Wars. Hasbro
>is no longer producing a product that has the same feel,
>the same quality.
I see it completely differently. As far as I can see, Armada
is *too* much like the whole stretch of G1, providing too
few toys with the posability long-time fans have come to
expect from Beast Wars toys.
>So, yeah, I collect things about a highly-collectible, now
>defunct toyline.
de·funct (d-fngkt) adj.
Having ceased to exist or live: a defunct political organization.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; I'm not even among
the number who wants a reissue line . . .
CRYOTEK WILL EAT YOUR DEFUNCT DREAMS!
Aaron F. Bourque
>you could have simply said, "Well, that's your opinion, but
>I disagree." :)
Where's the fun in that? </Munchausen>
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
CRYOTEK WILL EAT YOUR OPINION!
GARDNER1138
recesses of the adult fan's mind....
<< The former may be a direct quote, but the latter fits your attitude lately
better. >>
I believe that, if I were agreeing with what you say in the same exact manner,
you would be patting me on the back, metaphorically.
<< >Just about everything in here is an opinion.
Oh? >>
Yes, Aaron. Just about everything. When you talk later about what will and
won't work, it's conjectural, just as I guess what would or wouldn't work with
kids.
<< RD was more an attempt at returning the first year or two of G1 with ugly
shellformer kibble machines with girly legs and asymmetrical designs. >>
Wait one moment. First you say RiD is not like G1, because of its poseability
(and here--"girly legs"--G1 didn't really have a propensity for girly legs,
outside of the Bumblebee/Cliffjumper molds), but later you'll say that RiD is
very much like G1. Girly legs and asymmetrical designs like the first two years
of G1? What?
-All year one and two minicars were symmetrical. Only CJ or BB could be even
imaginatively described as having "girly legs"
-Jazz: symmetrical (excluding that he didn't have 2 launchers, but i'll not
count pop on-and-off accessories); no girly legs
-Sideswipe/Red Alert-symmetrical; no girly legs
-Hound-symmetrical (outside of spare tire and gas can); no girly legs
-Bluestreak/Prowl/Smokescreen-symmetrical; no girly legs
-Mirage-symmetrical; no girly legs
-Wheeljack-symmetrical; no girly legs
-Optimus Prime-symmetrical; thighs a little girly, but only pleasantly
effeminite
-Megatron-asymmetrical; skinny McBeal legs [score one for Aaron's analogy!]
-Soundwave-symmetrical; legs like Lawrence motherluvvin' Taylor!
-cassettes-symmetrical; mannish legs
-Jets-symmetrical (hell, identical!); non-girly man legs
So, that's all of year one (I think-it was off the top of my head) and some of
year 2's characters, and only 1 met your G1-similarity criteria.
<< The only thing they haven't revived is Pretenders. But maybe we'll get lucky
in wave 2+ >>
Mr. Bourque went to Washington and discovered humour. Me likey.
<< Shell formers. Back-pack formers. >>
I wasn't aware of this term before. Thanks. Is it widely used? I thought you
were referring to Bump-like weak shell designs.
<< The Autobot Bros. are shell formers. >>
Yes, they are. But, that and the thin legs are their only weaknesses. That, and
one of em's called Sideburn.
<< >Again, because of some name reuse? Not really. Let me >say it
again--something of a re-launch, akin to the new
>MOTU (not a line I totally appreciate)--is a return of G1
>with BW technology.
. . .
This *is* that! >>
No, it clearly isn't. But, I can't make you see that the lines are clearly
divergent. Also, perhaps you're not aware that I'm referring to story as well
as toys.
A few name reuses and an old familiar character or three does not a relaunch
make!
Sparkplug is now a wimpy pint-sized yellow Lambo, not a gruff, blue-collared
beer swilling mechanic like G1. That's a metaphor for the differences in the
lines and toys that share the same names.
(I'll say it again, though, the Starscream is damn handsome, without the
mini-cons all over him; AND the Megatron looks to be a fitting upgrade of his
G2 form [which I liked better than a tiny pistol])
<< I still don't see why this is a bad thing. >>
Because it gives you something solid; something concrete, something that
builds. Not just what-ifs over and over. I liken it to them stopping the Beast
Wars juggernaut prematurely. *Maybe* sales would've slumped had they continued
the series for another year (then I guess that year would've only been
successful, not very successful? Darn!), maybe they would've just as big.
<< They might, they might not. When I was a kid, it bothered me that I couldn't
pose my toys the way they appeared on TV. >>
Well, I think I'd be more concerned with it looking like the character in one
position than being able to bend like Jim Carey's face. 'Course, I'm on the
side of the fence with the McFarlane detailed sculpting. And, I'm digressing.
<< But as far as I can see, kids like PR for different reasons than kids would
like TFs. >>
Well, as far as the transforming/combining robots are concerned, if they like
certain features in the PR line, they'll prob'ly bite for in the TF line.
"Yeah, I didn't care that they were block-bots in PR, but I want megs o'
poseability out of my Megatron (XIV)!"
<< Well, because TFs doesn't have nearly the penetration as SW. >>
True. But, they are popular icons, otherwise the shirts and other G1 licensing
product wouldn't be so recognizable and profitable.
<< It's respectably big, but not big enough to sustain a separate collector's
market. >>
I.DO.NOT.WANT. (Wait a minute...the caps got me!)
I.COULDN'T.CONCEIVE.OF.A.COLLECTORS.LINE.ALONE. I never said that Transformers
should try to rely on an older collector base. I said I should like something
that tries to appeal to a broader base...something that appeals to some adults,
some older fans, and lots of kids.
<< The thing is, though, it's too much a celebration of what has gone before.
>>
I don't see this as a criticism of the Cybertronian--in fact, that's its
purpose.
<< Or are you going to continue to buy the Cybertronian guide if they get to BM
and RD? >>
I can't wait until more guides come out. I'm looking forward to each and every
one of 'em, possibly with the exception of a Japanese one (not my thing...I'm
interested in the US/UK storyline) and RiD. Still not sure about RiD, though.
There were a lot of toys, and I wouldn't mind a catalogue of the toys, for
posterity's sake.
<< I guess there's just a difference between what you want from TFs and what I
want. >>
You think? </overly used sarcasm>
I think when you boil it all down, I think so. What Dreamwave's cooking up, if
there were a toyline for their whole look, with the retro-feel of the comic,
with ball-joints and increased articulation (but not too much), increased
detail, rubber wheels, good names, no cheesy gimmicks (some gimmicks are good,
but too often other facets of the toy are sacrificed) with some overall
cohesiveness to the line and respect to the line's past are what I want.
Probably not gonna get it. I just with the Four Horsemen went to work for
Hasbro/Takara, not Mattel. *sigh*
<< While I would love to see the line reissued "right," I know it's a pipe
dream. >>
WHY must it be so? I'm not talking about reissuing the original toys. You're
probably right (but we don't really know, and shouldn't assume) that most of
the year 1-3 toys wouldn't be a big hit with kids as they were. But, new molds?
Why couldn't they do that?
<< I know that the reissues are of barely playable toys. >>
I don't know about that. But, most of them ARE too fragile, and probably
wouldn't strike as strong a chord with today's kids.
<< It would be a frightening experiment to see G1 reissues in toy stores
again. I really don't think they'd hold up against modern toylines. >>
Not in toystores. They'd probably do alright in comic shops as a seperate line.
But, now we're both off track.
<< It's called getting fed up of hearing the same dumb argument over again. >>
Now who's being assholish? Seriosly, Aaron, you can shout it until you're face
is blue, but it's still that way solely because Hasbro wants it that way. That
doesn't mean it couldn't be successful the other way around, with story,
characters and canon first, and the toys resulting.
<< ><< How many god damn times do you have to be told that >the TOY LINE IS FOR
THE KIDS? >>
>
>Six.
Then get it already. Marketing to collectors would not make
enough money for Hasbro to justify the expense. >>
Once again, I didn't say marketing to collectors ALONE. When I say trying to
have a crossover appeal, I'm referring to the media, and the tone of the line.
But, never do I believe that this line could try to compete without trying to
appeal to kids.
Oh, and I can't really help it. Believe me, I wish Robotech, Spawn or Star Wars
were my collecting passion. They all exist upon a solid older fanbase, and
perhaps Transformers could had it aspired to that all alone, but it has set a
precedence of being a kid's toyline, and Hasbro believes that is it's niche.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be, just that I would prefer it, and I think it
might be so much bigger if it took the risk and tried to be something
different.
<< >So, yeah, I collect things about a highly-collectible, now
>defunct toyline.
de·funct (d-fngkt) adj.
Having ceased to exist or live: a defunct political organization. >>
Were you trying to say that I incorrectly used the word. That is the very word
I chose. "Transformers" is a now-defunct line that existed in the US from
1984-1990. "Transformers: Generation 2" is a now-defunct line that existed from
late 1992-1995. "Beast Wars"......You get my point. That was Transformers.
This is Transformers Armada.
Pyre
> In Thread-Without-End, AaronBourque and I continue our trek into the deep
> recesses of the adult fan's mind....
>
Heh.
> << RD was more an attempt at returning the first year or two of G1 with ugly
> shellformer kibble machines with girly legs and asymmetrical designs. >>
>
> What?
I think what he was trying to say was that CRiD was a return to G1 only
with kibbly shellformers that have girly legs and such, not that G1 had
those things. So basically the only things that the CRiD toys have in
common with G1 is the specific-make-and-model vehicle modes.
>
> No, it clearly isn't. But, I can't make you see that the lines are clearly
> divergent. Also, perhaps you're not aware that I'm referring to story as well
> as toys.
I understand what you're saying. You basically want a cross between CRiD
and Armada. You want the specific-type vehicle modes from CRiD but with
the boxy poseable robots of Armada. We may yet see that too. Who knows.
>
> (I'll say it again, though, the Starscream is damn handsome, without the
> mini-cons all over him; AND the Megatron looks to be a fitting upgrade of his
> G2 form [which I liked better than a tiny pistol])
Yeah. I never did understand why some people didn't like Meg's tank form.
It's a perfectly logical progression, especially when looking at his AM toy.
>
> True. But, they are popular icons, otherwise the shirts and other G1 licensing
> product wouldn't be so recognizable and profitable.
Unfortunately, I think allot of that may just be because of the nastalga
factor. Transformers was big in the 80s and the 80s are popular now
therefore allot of people will just gleam onto anything having to do with
the 80s. It's really hard to say.
>
> Not in toystores. They'd probably do alright in comic shops as a seperate line.
> But, now we're both off track.
I think any type of re-issue line would almost have to be an exclusive of
some sort. Probably a TRUE exclusive or something.