my Vok theory
Stonecoldkane
> In an attempt to prevent the Transformers from ever coming to
their
> planet, they go back in time to ancient Earth. Once there they
> start to seed the planet with raw energon in hopes it will
kill
> the Transformers when they awaken. They don't hold humans
responsible
> so they're not trying to destroy them but are willing to do so
if
> they must.
> I know this doesn't match Larry and Bob but it makes sense to
me.
Yeah, I could see that..... but, the humans came around AFTER the moon
blew-up.
--
Stonecoldkane
"If you smell... No, this ain't a 'sing along with the Great One time'! The
Rock says it by himself! If you smelllll ....what the Rock.... is cookin'."
-The Rock
ICQ# 2081058
AIM: Magus600
Sik2klbPig
In an attempt to prevent the Transformers from ever coming to their
planet, they go back in time to ancient Earth. Once there they
start to seed the planet with raw energon in hopes it will kill
the Transformers when they awaken. They don't hold humans responsible
so they're not trying to destroy them but are willing to do so if
they must.
I know this doesn't match Larry and Bob but it makes sense to me.
Any comments?
SwineTron
JoeQuick
cold hard fact.
regards
rodimus convoy
Maximus Prime
--Maximus, who would rather accept stuff that's actually appeared
somewhere in a major medium for his canon
_______________________________
There are things I cannot do.
I cannot watch while people suffer.
I cannot sit when something must be done.
I cannot judge those who are different.
There are things I cannot do.
Run. Hide. Ignore.
There are things I cannot do.
But there are certainly things I *will* do.
________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/6206
ICQ 21221140
JoeQuick wrote in message
<19990614003324...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
superspy
JoeQuick <joeq...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990614003324...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
> Ok kids, the vok are the swarm. This isn't up for debate. This is
absolute
> cold hard fact.
>
> regards
> rodimus convoy
I'm all up for listening to this theory, if not completely liking it, but
evidently I missed an ATT memo -- when was this deemed a "cold hard fact?"
superspy.
JoeQuick
you by finding the adress that fact came from.
JoeQuick
beleive me, go to ben yees bwtf page. WWW.bwtf.com
then go to the tv show section, go to the american show, go to episode
synopses, then go to other victories comments section. Where they ask one of
the writers and he responds.....
5. What was the Earth experiment by the Vok anyway?
When asked this, Larry DiTillio had the following answer (keep in mind that
this is Larry DiTillio's response, and not Bob Forward's):
"This is a tough question to answer because in truth Bob and I never completely
agreed on certain aspects of the backstory concerning both the Vok and the fate
of Earth. So I might say one thing, he might say another. But I will give you
MY take since at this point in time, it's all just speculation
anyway.
Now, for my take, you have to hearken back to the work of Simon Furman in the
TF comicbook... specifically the 12 issue run which featured "The Swarm". This
was my theory - AFTER the Swarm destroyed most of Gen 2 and was then "redeemed"
by Optimus Prime (in issue 12), the Swarm became a new entity. It consisted of
parts of three different races/species etc. One was
Gen 2 itself, a machine race, the 2nd was an unknown race of humanoid lizards
(and they are the sibilant voice you hear in Other Visits), the third was well
US. IN short I concluded that before the Swarm decimated G2, they swept over
Earth and completely and utterly wiped out all human life there. (This by the
way was one of the major points of contention between Bob and I, Bob
did not like the idea of humanity being wiped out by the Swarm).
Once Optimus's intervention changed the Swarm it developed what you might call
an "extreme conscience". For the first time, it percieved it had done '"wrong"
and fueled by the sentience of the three consumed races it set about CORRECTING
it's mistakes. To this end, it vowed to restore the human race on the Planet
Earth, but doing it in such a way that would create a "perfect humanity". Of
course this was not an experiment to be concluded in a day or a week or even a
century. It was a matter of eons. And it meant playing with space and time and
scrapping the experiment if and when it went awry through the interference of
some other space faring race, PARTICULARLY, MACHINE Races... And in fact this
happened, more than once.
Which brings us to Beast Wars and yet another attempt at creating a pefect
humanity, one which by the way, would eventually interact with the long-lived
Transformers in peace."
superspy
> allright maximus, you anal little bugger, I'm not gonna rest till i prove
it to
> you by finding the adress that fact came from.
two things, Joey.
1: I'm not maximus -- heck, I've never met the guy outside of a few times
that he's replied to a post of mine.
2: go ahead, call me "anal" again. The amount of AOL jokes I've built up
over the years will astound you :)
jeez, ask a simple question these days......
superspy.
superspy
Maximus Prime <penma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:7k3msr$8$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...
> Dude, chill! All I meant was that this explanation hasn't appeared
> on the *show* or the *comics*. I don't care if God himself comes
> down out of heaven to tell us the origin of the Vok--I'll look at
> Him and say "put it in the show, buddy." As far as I'm concerned,
> Ben Yee's site, great as it is, is not the TF canon. Unless there's
> been some kind of announcement from Hasbro that I've missed. Now,
> *UNTIL* it appears in the show, or in the upcoming (we hope) comic,
> *I'm* not going to accept it as etched in stone. Period. Because I
> *like* wondering about all the possibilities of the Vok, and want to
> keep them as open as possible for as long as possible.
>
> And Superspy's gonna be pissed with you replying to his post instead
> of mine.
<snipperoonie>
nah, not pissed. if anything just a bit bewildered at how this guy managed
to confuse us :) yeah, "superspy" and "maximus prime;" definitely two
handles that look alike.
Jack and Co.
>
> Ok kids, the vok are the swarm. This isn't up for debate. This is absolute
> cold hard fact.
>
> regards
> rodimus convoy
And a damn lot better than the Vok=Swarm. So be quiet.
Octavulg
Maximus Prime
on the *show* or the *comics*. I don't care if God himself comes
down out of heaven to tell us the origin of the Vok--I'll look at
Him and say "put it in the show, buddy." As far as I'm concerned,
Ben Yee's site, great as it is, is not the TF canon. Unless there's
been some kind of announcement from Hasbro that I've missed. Now,
*UNTIL* it appears in the show, or in the upcoming (we hope) comic,
*I'm* not going to accept it as etched in stone. Period. Because I
*like* wondering about all the possibilities of the Vok, and want to
keep them as open as possible for as long as possible.
And Superspy's gonna be pissed with you replying to his post instead
of mine.
--I am Maximus Prime, the fusion of Fortress Maximus and the Matrix
of Leadership. You dare to call me *little?* I should crush you
like the insect you are to me! :-)
_______________________________
There are things I cannot do.
I cannot watch while people suffer.
I cannot sit when something must be done.
I cannot judge those who are different.
There are things I cannot do.
Run. Hide. Ignore.
There are things I cannot do.
But there are certainly things I *will* do.
________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/6206
ICQ 21221140
JoeQuick wrote in message
<19990614141851...@ng-cq1.aol.com>...
Jack and Co.
>
> Hey Maximus, I got the proof!!!!, I'm gonna print it here, but if you don't
> beleive me, go to ben yees bwtf page. WWW.bwtf.com
>
> then go to the tv show section, go to the american show, go to episode
> synopses, then go to other victories comments section. Where they ask one of
> the writers and he responds.....
>
> 5. What was the Earth experiment by the Vok anyway?
> When asked this, Larry DiTillio had the following answer (keep in mind that
> this is Larry DiTillio's response, and not Bob Forward's):
>
> "This is a tough question to answer because in truth Bob and I never completely
> agreed on certain aspects of the backstory concerning both the Vok and the fate
> of Earth. So I might say one thing, he might say another. But I will give you
> MY take since at this point in time, it's all just speculation
> anyway.
Octavulg, wonders whether JoeQuick knows what a bugger IS...
superspy
> Hey Maximus, I got the proof!!!!, I'm gonna print it here, but if you
don't
> beleive me, go to ben yees bwtf page. WWW.bwtf.com
okay.....According to a post here a few days back, Mr. Ditillo also said
that, had they had time, they probably would've made a link between
Tarantulas and the Tripredacus Council and Jhiaxus' renegade deceps from
generation 2. the fact is, they didn't. despite that, should we still
accept it as canon? personally, about all I can do with it is accept it as
a dog-gone good theory. why only that? because it was never actually put
onto paper, much in the same way that the Vok's origins haven't been set in
stone.
For now, I'll accept the vok/swarm theory as I do the Jhiaxus/Tarantulas
theory -- my own personal canon that can be changed if a comic or cartoon
says otherwise. in other words, pretty much what Maximus said :)
superspy.
Maximus Prime
instead of Steve Savage, and you (I think it was) almost flamed me
:-)
--Maximus the Not-Quite-Fireproof
_______________________________
There are things I cannot do.
I cannot watch while people suffer.
I cannot sit when something must be done.
I cannot judge those who are different.
There are things I cannot do.
Run. Hide. Ignore.
There are things I cannot do.
But there are certainly things I *will* do.
________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/6206
ICQ 21221140
superspy wrote in message <3765...@news3.us.ibm.net>...
>
>Maximus Prime <penma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:7k3msr$8$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...
>> Dude, chill! All I meant was that this explanation hasn't
appeared
>> on the *show* or the *comics*. I don't care if God himself comes
>> down out of heaven to tell us the origin of the Vok--I'll look at
>> Him and say "put it in the show, buddy." As far as I'm
concerned,
>> Ben Yee's site, great as it is, is not the TF canon. Unless
there's
>> been some kind of announcement from Hasbro that I've missed.
Now,
>> *UNTIL* it appears in the show, or in the upcoming (we hope)
comic,
>> *I'm* not going to accept it as etched in stone. Period.
Because I
>> *like* wondering about all the possibilities of the Vok, and want
to
>> keep them as open as possible for as long as possible.
>>
>> And Superspy's gonna be pissed with you replying to his post
instead
>> of mine.
superspy
> I was just remembering the time I replied to you (I think it was)
> instead of Steve Savage, and you (I think it was) almost flamed me
> :-)
>
oh, that. I almost flamed you because you didn't address steve specifically
until the second paragraph, which I had to scroll to. I thought all of that
stuff was aimed in my general direction :)
superspy.
Maximus Prime
I'll make shorter first paragraphs from now on :-)
--Maximus
_______________________________
There are things I cannot do.
I cannot watch while people suffer.
I cannot sit when something must be done.
I cannot judge those who are different.
There are things I cannot do.
Run. Hide. Ignore.
There are things I cannot do.
But there are certainly things I *will* do.
________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/6206
ICQ 21221140
superspy wrote in message <3765...@news3.us.ibm.net>...
>
Ari X
>
> Hey Maximus, I got the proof!!!!, I'm gonna print it here, but if you don't
> beleive me, go to ben yees bwtf page. WWW.bwtf.com
>snip<
Considering it was never stated at all in the acrtoon and even Bow
Foward doesn't agree with it, I'd say that fact isn't very cold or hard
to begin with.
--
~Ar...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8076/arix.htm
****************
So everybody I know is a character on the show.
Right.
And it's about nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
****************
ZacWilliam
>Considering it was never stated at all in the acrtoon and even Bow
>Foward doesn't agree with it, I'd say that fact isn't very cold or hard
>to begin with.
I sort of got the idea from reading it that Bob
agreed with most of it in theory, he just didn't like
the "Swarm killing off all Humanity" bit. Just the
way it read to me...
-ZacWilliam, who considers things like this sort
of "quasi-cannon" since it was officially intended
by the writters but never made the show and will
consider it true unless or until something
"on-camera" contradicts it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Dutrumble, Cobra Comander, Skelator,
Prince Lotor, CyKill, Terrorsaur, Master Ghaleon
(from Lunar), Team Rocket...
-The ever growing list of people who
remind me of Starscream.
Visit Zac's Shack of Repaints and Fanfic @
http://members.xoom.com/vicegripx/wildrun/zacwilliam/
Special thanks to ViceGripX for setting it up. :-)
ZacWilliam
>*UNTIL* it appears in the show, or in the upcoming (we hope) comic,
>*I'm* not going to accept it as etched in stone.
See, personally I tend to go the other way with
it. Bob and Larry (with occassional
imput/interferance) from Hasbro pretty much
created the BW universe. If it was their
intention / vague plan / general mode of thinking
that The Vok = Swarm and T.& the Tri.Preds = G2
Cons but they didn't get a chance to fit it on
camera then I'll say it's the "official" explanation
unless or until something on camera contradicts
it. But it's a grey area and open to debate.
-ZacWilliam, who wonders if maybe it'll get
mentioned in part 3 of Furman's Botcon story
which was approved by Hasbro and hence
is "Official."
JoeQuick
If the writer of a story says something is true, and part of his story, I
assume it to be true. Like if Maximus, for instance, said that something
happened in his story, but he didn't have a chance to put it into print, I
would assume it to be true. Like with Megatron returning megatrons spark to
megatron, that is a part of the story, whether we actually saw it on tv or
not is irrelevant. Dark glass is also a part of the story, because it allows
the events in Nemesis to make sense. It's pointless to say the world is flat
now that we know it's round.
"Sometimes the most important part of a story are the things that go unsaid,
and the events that go unseen."--Lithos Kup
Regards
Rodimus "don't call me joequick" Convoy
Maximus Prime
story, and it wasn't in my story, then I'd have to say that it
wasn't in my story. And I'm the fella who wrote it :-)
Of course, this is the same reason why I hated taking Interpretive
Literature classes. . .
--Maximus
_______________________________
There are things I cannot do.
I cannot watch while people suffer.
I cannot sit when something must be done.
I cannot judge those who are different.
There are things I cannot do.
Run. Hide. Ignore.
There are things I cannot do.
But there are certainly things I *will* do.
________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/6206
ICQ 21221140
JoeQuick wrote in message
<19990615000936...@ng-fs1.aol.com>...
JoeQuick
Túrin
>
> ok, i'm replying to all of you and not just maximus, ok?
>
> If the writer of a story says something is true, and part of his story, I
> assume it to be true. Like if Maximus, for instance, said that something
> happened in his story, but he didn't have a chance to put it into print, I
> would assume it to be true. Like with Megatron returning megatrons spark to
> megatron, that is a part of the story, whether we actually saw it on tv or
> not is irrelevant. Dark glass is also a part of the story, because it allows
> the events in Nemesis to make sense. It's pointless to say the world is flat
> now that we know it's round.
I don't agree. If it isn't in the story, it *might* be true, but then
again it might not. If it isn't in the story, explicitly or implicitly,
then it is open to interpretation.
If information is necessary to the understanding of a story, then it
should make it into the story. If I have to logon to the internet to
find out what *really* happened (i.e. I can't understand it just from
the story itself) then it has *failed*.
The fact is, the vision in the writer's head is never what he sets down
on paper. There is always extra info that doesn't get into the story.
But he can't withold information from us and then deem our
interpretation wrong.
So the matter of the Vok is open to interpretation. I have no problem
if people want to believe the Swarm theory, but it is just that, a
theory, until something in the show implies it. If Bob Skir wants to
reveal the aliens are somebody else in TBM, he can do that, and no
contradiction.
BTW, Megatron's spark returning was *implied* in the script, so we
didn't need to see it.
Dark Glass is *not* part of the BW canon. It doesn't really help with
Nemesis anyway, because how does Dinobot II remember the *death* of
Dinobot, something that happenened *after* the data upload?
Besides, I say again, if I have to go on the internet or talk to the
writers to find out what *really* happened, then it means they have
*failed* in their presentation of their story.
I remember in High School, Senior English, people would turn in essays
and get them backed marked with red for incoherence. "Well, what I
meant here was--" they'd say. "Write what you *mean*, and then you
won't have to explain it," quoth the teacher.
I read an Orson Scott Card short story once, and in the afterword he
explained the plot, because it was confusing. He then said something
like "the fact that I had to explain it means I failed." Yep.
Túrin, who's read the never made 18th episode script to The Prisoner,
which explains everything! The Butler was No. 1! (I knew it all the
time)
The (Unofficial) Official Beast Wars Non-Show Character Site
http://knoledge.org/mormegil/
Register to vote NOW!
Zobovor Using a Silly Screen Name
x
p
n
p
b
p
t
(I really should give out a prize to whosoever deciphers that string of
letters... And no, it's not a radio station. <g>)
Túrin wrote:
>JoeQuick wrote:
>> If the writer of a story says something is true, and part of his
>> story, I assume it to be true. Like if Maximus, for instance, said
>> that something happened in his story, but he didn't have a chance
>> to put it into print, I would assume it to be true. Like with
>> Megatron returning megatrons spark to megatron, that is a part of
>> the story, whether we actually saw it on tv or not is irrelevant.
>> Dark glass is also a part of the story, because it allows the
>> events in Nemesis to make sense. It's pointless to say the world
>> is flat now that we know it's round.
>
>I don't agree. If it isn't in the story, it *might* be true, but then
>again it might not. If it isn't in the story, explicitly or implicitly,
>then it is open to interpretation.
That's a great way to look at things, especially if you're writing fanfics.
(If a story you're writing depends on the Ark having crashed in Utah, who's to
say otherwise? Nobody ever referenced Oregon or Mt. St. Hillary in the
cartoon.) Nevertheless, most fans accept that the volcano *is* in Oregon
because it's (presumably) the same volcano in the comic books, and other
documentation from Hasbro supports this (like the pamphlet that came with the
S.T.A.R.S. membership). It's become a kind of pseudo-canon that not many
people bother to contradict. If I went around saying the Ark "really" crashed
in Utah, people would correct my misinformation left and right. For all
intents and purposes, the Ark's location is "true" even though it was never
used in an episode.
>If information is necessary to the understanding of a story, then it
>should make it into the story. If I have to logon to the internet to
>find out what *really* happened (i.e. I can't understand it just from
>the story itself) then it has *failed*.
I agree with you to a point. The best stories are self-contained ones. But
isn't it better to have an official source such as Larry DiTillio to clear up
the plot oversights, rather than leaving us to guess at the answers (e.g. the
Constructicons' origins or Broadside's multiple forms)?
>The fact is, the vision in the writer's head is never what he sets
>down on paper. There is always extra info that doesn't get into the
>story. But he can't withold information from us and then deem our
>interpretation wrong.
>So the matter of the Vok is open to interpretation. I have no
>problem if people want to believe the Swarm theory, but it is just
>that, a theory, until something in the show implies it. If Bob Skir
>wants to reveal the aliens are somebody else in TBM, he can do
>that, and no contradiction.
Well, there *is* a contradiction--just not a contradiction of canon. It would
still directly go against what many fans were previously lead to believe. I
hate to turn this into another Star Wars thread, but several sources (newspaper
strips and toy packages) used to claim that C-3PO was created 113 years before
the events of Star Wars: A New Hope. Of course, now it turns out that Anakin
Skywalker built him about 30 years or so before ANH. The Phantom Menace, being
canonical, pushes the previous pseudo-canon out of the way. It still jostles
the brain cells of a few people who were conviced Threepio was over a century
old.
>BTW, Megatron's spark returning was *implied* in the script, so we
>didn't need to see it.
In the script, or in the episode? It was blatantly shown in the script. You
*infer* it from the episode, but it wasn't implied. For all we know, BW Megs
still has G1 Megs' spark by the time of Beast Machines.
>Dark Glass is *not* part of the BW canon. It doesn't really help with
>Nemesis anyway, because how does Dinobot II remember the
>*death* of Dinobot, something that happenened *after* the data
>upload?
One could make the jump that Dinobot's core consciousness was in tune with his
spark, much in the same way Optimus Prime was aware of events that transpired
after his death. It's not much more of a jump than deciding that Dinobot 2's
spark mingled briefly with the original Dinobot during Rampage's passage into
the Matrix.
>Besides, I say again, if I have to go on the internet or talk to the
>writers to find out what *really* happened, then it means they have
>*failed* in their presentation of their story.
Well, as long as I'm bringing up Star Wars, does anybody remember the scene in
The Empire Strikes Back where Han Solo is reunited with Lando Calrissian, who
utters a pained, "You've got a lot of guts coming here after what you pulled"?
According to the comic books, the event in question revolves around Han
enlisting a pair of twins, Brea and Senni Tonnika, to trick Lando and pretend
to be one woman, "Bresenni." He eventually falls in love with Bresenni and
proposes to her, only to discover they are two separate people.
You don't really need to know the origin of the Vok to understand the story.
It's a delightful tidbit to consider that they originated from the Swarm, but
you also don't need to know who the Tonnika sisters are to get the gist of Han
and Lando's relationship.
ZobTrivia of the Day (6/15): Where did Elise Presser go to school?
Answer for 6/14: Sideswipe, Sunstreaker, Red Alert, Breakdown, & Freewheeler
were lamborghinis.
Zobovor's Multi-Faceted Transformers Site!
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html
ZacWilliam
Turin wrote in message <37669D...@SPAMBLOCKknoledge.org>...
>JoeQuick wrote:
>>
>> ok, i'm replying to all of you and not just maximus, ok?
>>
I
>> assume it to be true. Like if Maximus, for instance, said that something
>> happened in his story, but he didn't have a chance to put it into print,
I
>> would assume it to be true. Like with Megatron returning megatrons spark
to
>> megatron, that is a part of the story, whether we actually saw it on tv
or
>> not is irrelevant. Dark glass is also a part of the story, because it
allows
>> the events in Nemesis to make sense. It's pointless to say the world is
flat
>> now that we know it's round.
>
>I don't agree. If it isn't in the story, it *might* be true, but then
>again it might not. If it isn't in the story, explicitly or implicitly,
>then it is open to interpretation.
I agree that it's open to interpritation but I also think there's a
certain
inherent value/truth to the what the writer intended when writting a story.
It may not be set in stone if it didn't make the show, but it's at least
shaped
for us out of the same clay as the rest of the story.
>If information is necessary to the understanding of a story, then it
>should make it into the story. If I have to logon to the internet to
>find out what *really* happened (i.e. I can't understand it just from
>the story itself) then it has *failed*.
Well I think maybe in terms of a novel or movie, but Bob
& Larry didn't exactly have a free hand with BW. They would
have included the G2 links if they had gotten the chance.
The fact that Hasbro ended BW before they tied up all the plots
they started is hardly their fault, so I think calling it a "failior"
because of this is pretty harsh.
>The fact is, the vision in the writer's head is never what he sets down
>on paper. There is always extra info that doesn't get into the story.
>But he can't withold information from us and then deem our
>interpretation wrong.
Ah, but this isn't stuff B&L purposely "withheld." If the
show had continued we probably would have found it out.
I don't think anyone is saying other interpretations are "wrong,"
just that L&B's takes precedents unless contradicted by future
shows.
>So the matter of the Vok is open to interpretation. I have no problem
>if people want to believe the Swarm theory, but it is just that, a
>theory, until something in the show implies it.
Hmmm.. :-)
< NIGHTBEAT MODE ON: >
"Well Siren, in a vague Holmesian sort of way it did imply it.
Tarrantulas
was a Transformer with a vested intrest/connection in Cybertron, yet
he was not decended from Autobots or Decepticons. When we look
at TF Universe suspects/precedents there are three biggies:
1) The Quintessons, 2) Unicron, 3) the G2 Empire. We know from
the show that T's goal is goal was to wipe the Bots and Cons out
by destroying the Ark so his people could take control of Cybertron
and use it as a staging ground to conquer the Universe.
Now look at the suspects: 1) Unicron doesn't want to conquer
anything, he wanted to destroy Everything,. 2) The Quintessons
might want revenge and to rule Cybertron, but they'd much rather
make a profit off the wars between different worlds then rule them
themselves. That leaves us with the G2's; charecters who have both
the motive and support of the writters. All it takes is a knowlwdge
of TF hisory and basic deductive skills and the problem becomes
elementery, my dear Siren.
Now if we except this deduction as likely, then we can move
on to the Vok. Tarrantulas has an intimate knowledge of and intense hatred
for this powerful, non-corporeal race. If he is G2 then it follows that the
Vok might be in fact another manifestation of the powerful non-coporeal
race we know the G2's have reason to hate: ie The Swarm. So you see, while
it is not stated anywhere in is indead IMPLIED, in a roundabout way,
in BW that the Vok are Swarm."
< NIGHTBEAT MODE OFF. > ;-)
> If Bob Skir wants to
>reveal the aliens are somebody else in TBM, he can do that, and no
>contradiction.
Agreed, as long as it makes sense with what we know so far. As much
as I'd like it though I have serious dooubts he'll pick up any of these
dangling threads though.
>BTW, Megatron's spark returning was *implied* in the script, so we
>didn't need to see it.
And if you folow ol' Nightbeat's reasoning so was the Swarm and
G2. ;-)
>Dark Glass is *not* part of the BW canon. It doesn't really help with
>Nemesis anyway, because how does Dinobot II remember the *death* of
>Dinobot, something that happenened *after* the data upload?
Agreed again. :-) The Rampages spark touching the matrix idea still
works best for me here.
>Besides, I say again, if I have to go on the internet or talk to the
>writers to find out what *really* happened, then it means they have
>*failed* in their presentation of their story.
But again, they didn't get to present their whole story through no
fault of
their own.
-ZacWilliam, admits this ones a verry gray area who has a
fealling this
debate is eventually headed for FIRRIB/FIBRIR territory.
ZacWilliam
Zobovor Using a Silly Screen Name wrote in message
<19990615172540...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
>[spoilers for "Other Victories," "Nemesis," and The Phantom Menace below]
>
>x
>
>p
>
>n
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>b
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>
>(If a story you're writing depends on the Ark having crashed in Utah, who's
to
>say otherwise? Nobody ever referenced Oregon or Mt. St. Hillary in the
>cartoon.) Nevertheless, most fans accept that the volcano *is* in Oregon
>because it's (presumably) the same volcano in the comic books, and other
>documentation from Hasbro supports this (like the pamphlet that came with
the
>S.T.A.R.S. membership). It's become a kind of pseudo-canon that not many
>people bother to contradict. If I went around saying the Ark "really"
crashed
>in Utah, people would correct my misinformation left and right. For all
>intents and purposes, the Ark's location is "true" even though it was never
>used in an episode.
I agree. I would give this the G2/BW connections this same
Psuedo-canon
status. Not officially official, but pretty darn close.
>
>I agree with you to a point. The best stories are self-contained ones.
But
>isn't it better to have an official source such as Larry DiTillio to clear
up
>the plot oversights, rather than leaving us to guess at the answers (e.g.
the
>Constructicons' origins or Broadside's multiple forms)?
You know, normally I'd agree with you but I just finished finally
reading
your Constructicon fanfic and it was really good. :-) Without the open
glitches
of G1 we never would have got this, so now I'm torn...
>>BTW, Megatron's spark returning was *implied* in the script, so we
>>didn't need to see it.
>
>In the script, or in the episode? It was blatantly shown in the script.
You
>*infer* it from the episode, but it wasn't implied. For all we know, BW
Megs
>still has G1 Megs' spark by the time of Beast Machines.
Well, unless Primal and company are morons or VERY absent
minded I think it is implied by Primal's line that everything was finally
OK.
Megs still having the original's spark would be a very big NOT-OK.
>One could make the jump that Dinobot's core consciousness was in tune with
his
>spark, much in the same way Optimus Prime was aware of events that
transpired
>after his death. It's not much more of a jump than deciding that Dinobot
2's
>spark mingled briefly with the original Dinobot during Rampage's passage
into
>the Matrix.
Was Prime aware of things that happened after his death? What
things?
Seeing how, without a spark, a core conciousness would seem to be simply
a computer program, I'm not sure if it would be possible for it to have a
link.
-ZacWilliam, knowing this is one of those debates that is never really
going to be
settled but at least it's an interesting one. :-)
Túrin
below]
Zobovor Using a Silly Screen Name wrote:
<snip>
> >If information is necessary to the understanding of a story, then it
> >should make it into the story. If I have to logon to the internet to
> >find out what *really* happened (i.e. I can't understand it just from
> >the story itself) then it has *failed*.
>
> I agree with you to a point.
You know something? I only agree with what I wrote to a point, too...
The bottom line is, there really is no "canon" in one sense. There are
too many contradictory sources of information, too many
interpretations. All we have are some things that are generally
accepted, and some things that aren't. I mean, I don't believe the Vok
are the Swarm, because I never read the G2 comic. So that unofficial
explanation does nothing for me. On the other hand, I believe that
Darth Vader has to wear that suit because of wounds suffered in a battle
with Obi-Wan Kenobi, and that isn't in any of the films (yet). But if
they contradicted that in the films I wouldn't be crushed either.
If people want to believe that the Vok are the Swarm, fine. I just
don't want to hear that it's a "cold and hard fact" as one person said.
BTW, if Megatron's spark *wasn't* returned, that *would* contradict what
Optimus said about "everything being as it should be." I don't think
assuming it was returned is a leap outside the canon.
Túrin
JoeQuick
way eventually
Rodimus "it's good to be me" Convoy
Maximus Prime
And I never will.
:-)
--Maximus the Obstinate
Douglas W. Dlin
> x
>
> p
>
> n
>
> p
>
> b
>
> p
>
> t
>
> (I really should give out a prize to whosoever deciphers that string of
> letters... And no, it's not a radio station. <g>)
>
It's a cryptogram for your name, isn't it? No steady letter shift, but basic
one-to-one subtitution, at any rate.
Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com
who does the cryptogram puzzle in the daily paper every chance he gets
Zobovor Using a Silly Screen Name
x
p
n
p
b
p
t
ZacWilliam wrote:
>>isn't it better to have an official source such as Larry DiTillio to
>>clear up the plot oversights, rather than leaving us to guess at the
>>answers (e.g. the Constructicons' origins or Broadside's multiple
>>forms)?
> You know, normally I'd agree with you but I just finished finally
>reading your Constructicon fanfic and it was really good. :-) >Without the
open glitches of G1 we never would have got this, so
>now I'm torn...
You flatter me, sir. :)
>>One could make the jump that Dinobot's core consciousness was
>>in tune with his spark, much in the same way Optimus Prime was
>>aware of events that transpired after his death. It's not much more
>>of a jump than deciding that Dinobot 2's spark mingled briefly with
>>the original Dinobot during Rampage's passage into the Matrix.
> Was Prime aware of things that happened after his death?
>What things?
Well, in the movie, he told Rodimus Prime to arise from within the Matrix. He
was in communication with Rodimus during "Five Faces of Darkness" and learned
of the Quintessons' plan to retake Cybertron.
>Seeing how, without a spark, a core conciousness would seem to
>be simply a computer program, I'm not sure if it would be possible
>for it to have a link.
Well, how did the Quintessons revive Optimus in "Dark Awakening"? Because
while his spark was inside the Matrix, his core consciousness was still within
his body. Only when Prime and the Matrix were reunited did Prime actually come
to his senses. (Sounds a bit like Dinobot 2 and Dinobot, doesn't it?)
I believe a Transformer's core consciousness is more than just a computer
program; otherwise, why wouldn't you routinely make backup copies of yourself
in case you died in battle? Dinobot attempted to do so by downloading himself
into the Axalon data banks, but since he was later aware of his own death, his
core consciousness must have still been in synch with his spark.
Zobovor Using a Silly Screen Name
>> x
>>
>> p
>>
>> n
>>
>> p
>>
>> b
>>
>> p
>>
>> t
>>
>> (I really should give out a prize to whosoever deciphers that string of
>> letters... And no, it's not a radio station. <g>)
>It's a cryptogram for your name, isn't it? No steady letter shift, but basic
>one-to-one subtitution, at any rate.
Ah, but there *is* a steady letter shift, as you put it...
David Cousens
spells zobovor.
(eg. the key left of X is Z giving us our first letter, then continue the
procedure)
Dave
PS. What do I win?
JoeQuick
;)
But i can't see how you could say that Tarantualus and the Tripredicus council
are G2's. There really isn't anything to point to that in the show. What we
do have in the show isTarantualus saying that they came from another source
beside autobot and decepticon, and we have Megatron calling Tarantualus a
spawn of unicron. My conclusion, Tarantualus is descended from Unicron
somehow. We know Unicron has the power to reform transformers, maybe he can
create them from scratch too.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> But i can't see how you could say that Tarantualus and the Tripredicus council
> are G2's. There really isn't anything to point to that in the show.
You've just lost me... weren't you saying earlier that the Vok are the
Swarm because that was the idea Bob and Larry had at one time? There's
no in-show evidence for that, at all... And yet, when it comes to
Tarantulas, you go *against* what Larry has told us and make a conclusion
which also isn't supported by the show? ("Unicron spawn" never sounded
like anything but a random insult to me.)
--Steve-o
Steve Stonebraker | alt.toys.transformers FAQ Keeper | Help end email spam!
srst...@bu.edu | http://astro.bu.edu/~srstoneb/ | http://www.cauce.org
ViceGripX
>JoeQuick wrote...
>> But i can't see how you could say that Tarantualus and the Tripredicus
council
>> are G2's. There really isn't anything to point to that in the show.
>
>You've just lost me... weren't you saying earlier that the Vok are the
>Swarm because that was the idea Bob and Larry had at one time? There's
I thought so too. Maybe I need to re-read this thread to make sure.
Hmm...
>no in-show evidence for that, at all... And yet, when it comes to
>Tarantulas, you go *against* what Larry has told us and make a conclusion
>which also isn't supported by the show? ("Unicron spawn" never sounded
>like anything but a random insult to me.)
Much like Retrax-Face or Vermin or Witch or Dino-Butt or Manterror-Arms
or Scavenger-Smile or Wheelie. :)
--
+ /|**(http://members.xoom.com/vicegripx/)***|\ Help! My .sig was
+ p / |(http://www.wildrun.com/ v...@wildrun.com)| \ stuck in a vise by
+NNON| |NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN| |NN
+ b \_|=========================================|_/=O Dave Van Domelen!
TF Fancode: G+++ FR FW+ M++ #459 D+++ ADA N+++ W++ B+++ OP++ MUSH-- BC+++
CN++++ OM P277
Robert Powers
On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:39:46 -0700, Túrin
<morm...@SPAMBLOCKknoledge.org> wrote:
>should make it into the story. If I have to logon to the internet to
>find out what *really* happened (i.e. I can't understand it just from
>the story itself) then it has *failed*.
I agree with this to an extent, but disagree as well. This is an issue
I've referred to before as "subtle or sloppy".
In lots of literature, events aren't always clear and well-defined.
Things happen off-stage, or they're reported second-hand. Sometimes the
narrator isn't present when the events in question happen -- ie Watson's
absence during Sherlock Holmes' fatal scuffle with Moriarty (not sure if I
spelled that right...) Sometimes someone's motives, intentions, thoughts,
loyalties, and beliefs aren't clearly explained. Is this plot oversight,
or... something *more*?
A plot gap or hole may leave the viewer frustrated -- but it can also
make them *think*, which is a laudible goal for any story. It's a bit
pedantic to explicitly explain EVERYTHING (not BAD, necessarily; but
telling everything isn't the only way to tell a story) -- epecially if
there's some underlying moral or theme to a story. Sometimes a message
(or a plot) is more powerful if a reader has to cypher it out for himself,
rather than being bludgeoned with it. And sometimes the point is that
there is no clear message, no single "correct" interpretation. Such
works are designed to make the reader ponder and question, and work out
their own answers, perhaps coming up with several valid interpretations
and then choosing one... or perhaps accepting that there often are no
clear or easy answers.
So, does Beast Wars fall into this category of subtle story telling?
I'd like to think so, to a certain extent at least. Definately in the
case of Dinobot -- this is precisely why I regard him as the best
character in the Transformers mythos. Of course, I think the show also
has plenty of simple plot holes, as well. And of course, as we've learned
in the last month or two, the answer to "subtle or sloppy" frequently
seems to be "cut by executive decision"...
--
Robert Powers of the Ever-Changing .sig
repo...@netaxs.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6754 ______
| Whose social life gets more surreal by the day... |
|___________________________________________________|
Robert Powers
On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:46:42 -0400, ZacWilliam <zach...@csu.cted.net>
wrote:
[big snip on why the Vok = the Swarm and Tarantulas = G2 'con decendents>
>< NIGHTBEAT MODE OFF. > ;-)
Wow. Well, I'm fairly convinced now. And nice NB impersonation, BTW.
Interested in taking over a home page? :]
(just a joke, people, just a joke... though my UK Comic image problems
are enough to make me consider it.)
> -ZacWilliam, admits this ones a verry gray area who has a
>fealling this
>debate is eventually headed for FIRRIB/FIBRIR territory.
Actually, I disagree... when a bunch of messy plot stuff like this
comes out, there's always a period of discussion among the fans, hashing
it out to see what floats to the top. Eventually things reach a point of
"well, we don't have a firm answer, and not everyone agrees, but what
seems most likely is this..." Kinda like we do with the issue of "did the
BWs have different names and alt.modes before the show?", for example.
I think your explanation makes a lot of sense, AND it has the apparent
backing of the writers, so it's likely to be that "what seems most
likely"... IMO, anyway.
--
Robert Powers of the Ever-Changing .sig
repo...@netaxs.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6754
| SONG CURRENTLY IN MY HEAD: |
| "Two Steps Back" by Bruce Springstein. |
| I get the message she's been sending... _|
Prime Saber
>
> Each letter below is one key on the keyboard to the left of the letters of
> your name +ACI-Zobovor+ACI-.
> Now all we got to do is figure out what Zobovor means.
You mean "to the right", right?
Tony Li, the Shrapnel Saber ;)
Index page to the Japanese and Beast Wars Transformers, including
pictures, videos, and my own models of Galvatron and God Ginrai --
http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/manwood/484/TF/TF.html
primus
your name +ACI-Zobovor+ACI-.
Now all we got to do is figure out what Zobovor means.
Primus
primus+AF8-t+AEA-yahoo.com
+ACI-Wars doesn't decide who's right, it decides who's left.+ACI-
Zobovor Using a Silly Screen Name wrote in message
+ADw-19990616034141.25706.00000041+AEA-ng-fa1.aol.com+AD4-...
+AD4-Doug Dlin wrote:
+AD4-
+AD4APgA+- x
+AD4APgA+-
+AD4APgA+- p
+AD4APgA+-
+AD4APgA+- n
+AD4APgA+-
+AD4APgA+- p
+AD4APgA+-
+AD4APgA+- b
+AD4APgA+-
+AD4APgA+- p
+AD4APgA+-
+AD4APgA+- t
+AD4APgA+-
+AD4APgA+- (I really should give out a prize to whosoever deciphers that string of
+AD4APgA+- letters... And no, it's not a radio station. +ADw-g+AD4-)
+AD4-
+AD4APg-It's a cryptogram for your name, isn't it? No steady letter shift, but
basic
+AD4APg-one-to-one subtitution, at any rate.
+AD4-
+AD4-Ah, but there +ACo-is+ACo- a steady letter shift, as you put it...
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-ZobTrivia of the Day (6/15): Where did Elise Presser go to school?
+AD4-
+AD4-Answer for 6/14: Sideswipe, Sunstreaker, Red Alert, Breakdown, +ACY-
Freewheeler
+AD4-were lamborghinis.
+AD4-
+AD4-Zobovor's Multi-Faceted Transformers Site+ACE-
+AD4-http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html
Túrin
>
> On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:39:46 -0700, Túrin
> <morm...@SPAMBLOCKknoledge.org> wrote:
> >should make it into the story. If I have to logon to the internet to
> >find out what *really* happened (i.e. I can't understand it just from
> >the story itself) then it has *failed*.
>
> I agree with this to an extent, but disagree as well.
Yeah, me too. Heh.
primus
Prime Saber wrote in message +ADw-376864D3.93529BEF+AEA-hotmail.com+AD4-...
+AD4-Primus (mslibra+AEA-home.com) wrote:
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- Each letter below is one key on the keyboard to the left of the letters
of
+AD4APg- your name +ACI-Zobovor+ACI-.
+AD4APg- Now all we got to do is figure out what Zobovor means.
+AD4-
+AD4-You mean +ACI-to the right+ACI-, right?
Right, left, Whats the Difference? +ADs--)
Primus
primus+AF8-t+AEA-yahoo.com
+ACI-War doesn't decide who's right, it decides who's left.+ACI-
+AD4-Tony Li, the Shrapnel Saber +ADs-)
+AD4-
+AD4-Index page to the Japanese and Beast Wars Transformers, including
+AD4-pictures, videos, and my own models of Galvatron and God Ginrai --
+AD4- http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/manwood/484/TF/TF.html
+AD4-
+AD4-