What do YOU think would happen differently, in an alternate timeline of TFTM where Hot Rod han't interferred in Prime and Megatron's fight?

[Rodimus_2316]

I know a lot of fans, like myself, didn't like a lot of the events in the IDW Transformers The Movie Deviation one-shot, so for those I'm asking what does everyone here think would've happened? What first got me upset was how badly Ultra Magnus got along with Hot Rod, first about having been teamed up on the same ship by Optimus.



- Rodimus_2316

[Codigo Postal]

Great question. Ultimately, the outcome is likely the same (Unicron dead, Cybertron retaken), but the first part happens faster and the second part happens more slowly.

Without Hot Rod, the critical change is that Optimus survives.

Megatron is still badly damaged, and his fate likely remains the same, which means Unicron recreates him into Galvatron, and sends him to retrieve the Matrix.

The difference is that the Matrix is securely with Optimus, a leader who knows its value, and who can unite the surviving Autobots against Galvatron and Unicron combined.

Hot Rod's final triumph against Galvatron in the innards of Unicron was only possible because he had the sheer luck of grabbing the Matrix, with the voice of Optimus Prime guiding him in his ascension to Prime.

Now we can cut out the middleman. We don't need Hot Rod - Optimus can size up the situation, and fly out directly to meet Unicron. Along the way, he's likely smart enough to defend against Cyclonus/Galvatron's missiles instead of dithering like Magnus or sparring with droids like Hot Rod.

That means no pit stops to Junk or Quintessa - just a straight shot to battle Unicron and retake Cybertron. Fast and easy.

However, this affects the fate of Cybertron and the Bot-Con war.

Originally, the jaunts on Junk and Quintessa gave Unicron enough time to devastate Cybertron and gravely weaken the Cons, which in turn made it easier for the Autobots to retake the planet after Unicron's death.

Assuming Optimus is far more efficient, he goes straight from the Battle of Autobot City into the maw of Unicron, unleashes the Matrix, sends Galvatron flying into deep space, and explodes the Dark God.

But what next? Cybertron is still intact, under the command of Shockwave, with all his legions. They've taken losses on Earth, but so have the Autobots.

Ultimately, I believe Optimus leads the Autobots to victory, as Shockwave is no Megatron, but it takes time, especially with the loss of the Moonbases. It's probably pitched battle on Cybertron itself, with Autobot morale high after Unicron's death, and Con morale low after the losses of Megatron, Starscream, and Galvatron in quick succession.

In the end, Optimus reigns supreme, and announces 'Til All Are One' to the cheering crowds. The Dinobots remain unappreciated closet-dwelling weapons, Springer, Arcee, and Kup probably remain mid-ranking Earth liaisons, and Daniel is equally traumatized. Magnus remains a trusty second-in-command, never having shamed himself by losing the Matrix or getting blown apart on Junk, and Hot Rod remains the same turbo-revving punk he always was, with zero character growth.

A fun thought exercise!

[Swivelbot]

I wonder if Optimus would be able to save Jazz, Cliffjumper, Spike and Bumblebee.

In Deviations they actually don't get saved and presumably die, and they were only saved in the original because Daniel got separated from the others and kind of stumbled into them, and even then Daniel only ran into them because they made those deviations (no pun intended) to Junk and Quintessa allowing for perfect timing. Though Optimus did hear their distress call and likely would try and save them.

Swivelbot

[Velvet Glove]

On Sunday, September 3, 2023 at 2:25:51 AM UTC+1, Swivelbot wrote:
> I wonder if Optimus would be able to save Jazz, Cliffjumper, Spike and Bumblebee.
>
> In Deviations they actually don't get saved and presumably die, and they were only saved in the original because Daniel got separated from the others and kind of stumbled into them, and even then Daniel only ran into them because they made those deviations (no pun intended) to Junk and Quintessa allowing for perfect timing. Though Optimus did hear their distress call and likely would try and save them.
>
> Swivelbot

They weren't saved in the original Marvel adaptation, weren't they? Maybe it's a deliberate homage to that? I remember I never saw the movie as a kid, but we had the comic adaptation, and I was always much more blown away that Spike died than I was that Optimus did. A year later when I started watching the cartoon, I assumed they just retconned it... It was ten years before I finally saw the movie and solved that mystery.

Also, is it wrong of me to always want to answer questions like this with: If Hot Rod didn't interfere, Megatron just shoots Optimus anyway, and then he gets blasted either by Optimus as he falls or by some other Autobots on the retreat and everything else happens the exact same way. I always did feel Hot Rod's involvement in Optimus' death is really over-rated.

Velvet Glove (who realises this goes against the principle of the question; Bah, Humbug)

[Rodimus_2316]

> I wonder if Optimus would be able to save Jazz, Cliffjumper, Spike and Bumblebee.
>
> In Deviations they actually don't get saved and presumably die, and they were only saved in the original because Daniel got separated from the others and kind of stumbled into them, and even then Daniel only ran into them because they made those deviations (no pun intended) to Junk and Quintessa allowing for perfect timing. Though Optimus did hear their distress call and likely would try and save them.
>
> Swivelbot

Actually, in the Deviations book, Spike and Bumblebee were saved, but IIRC, Jazz and Cliffjumper weren't.


- Rodimus_2316

[Sky Raider]

On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 3:31:19 AM UTC-4, Rodimus_2316 wrote:
> I know a lot of fans, like myself, didn't like a lot of the events in the IDW Transformers The Movie Deviation one-shot, so for those I'm asking what does everyone here think would've happened? What first got me upset was how badly Ultra Magnus got along with Hot Rod, first about having been teamed up on the same ship by Optimus.
>
>
>
> - Rodimus_2316

I think I liked the Deviations version more than most people, and mostly because it really properly played up the carnage at Autobot City and had such a great portrayal of Starscream. (Silly name "Megascream" notwithstanding...come on, "Galvascream" was right there.) And yes you are right...Jazz and Cliffjumper are among the characters who live in the movie but die in the alternate story; Bumblebee and Spike are fine because Moonbase 2 is never eaten to begin with. Prime and the other survivors use Moonbase 2 as a staging ground for the final battle and intrestingly, we see a bunch of cool looking generic bots that I figure must have been on the moon in the movie and of course, didn't make it out.

I have to disagree with Codigo's take because to me the whole point of Hot Rod not interfering and ending up a "human" shield is that Prime was this close to finally pulling the trigger on Megatron, or at the very least capturing him alive. But I don't see a scenario where Megatron gets away or lives long enough to meet Unicron here. It is true that Hot Rod's share of the blame is often overstated, because Prime's hesitation is what enabled it to happen to begin with. Honestly, Prime and Hot Rod are both at fault. However, without Hot Rod, I don't think Megatron is able to get the drop on Prime and the cheap shots. Prime already had him dead to rights, and without Hot Rod in the way there is nothing stopping him from returning fire and putting down Megs for good (he was still standing tall after that first blast, you'll remember).

Now here's where things get dark...would Prime have even been able to open the Matrix and use it against Unicron? This is where the retcon in "The Return of Optimus Prime" kind of muddies the waters for me. Because if you look at the movie as a standalone story, to me it seems heavily hinted that only Hot Rod was the true Chosen One who could light the Darkest Hour and all that jazz (not Jazz). It seems to make the story suffer thematically a bit if someone else could do it, even if it was Optimus. There's certainly room for debate here though, I'll give you guys that. Worth noting though, is that even in the Deviations comic it still ends up being Hot Rod becoming Rodimus and saving the day, even with Optimus alive and well.

There's also the question if opening the Matrix against Unicron (by Optimus, Rodimus, or whoever) would have worked at all unless the Matrix was already inside him, which means we need to have a similar series of events take place where our hero(es) are inside Unicron, survive that far, and have access to the Matrix. None of these are guaranteed in a timeline change.

Fun topic!

[Optim]

On Sunday, September 3, 2023 at 5:35:44 p.m. UTC-4, Velvet Glove wrote:

>
> Also, is it wrong of me to always want to answer questions like this with: If Hot Rod didn't interfere, Megatron just shoots Optimus anyway, and then he gets blasted either by Optimus as he falls or by some other Autobots on the retreat and everything else happens the exact same way. I always did feel Hot Rod's involvement in Optimus' death is really over-rated.
>

There are other possibilities I can think of. Megs shoots before Optimus can react in time. So, Megs survives and Optimus dies. The Decepticons don't retreat because their leader is still alive. By not retreating, they win Autobot City. But everyone loses in the end when Unicron comes. Bad ending.

Another possibility is Optimus is on the ball; he shoots Megs before Megs gets a shot off. The Autobots win, and with Optimus's help, destroy Unicron when he comes. Good ending.

So, it is not set in stone that if Hot Rod hadn't interfered, everything would have gone well. In any case, if it wasn't for Hot Rod, the Decepticons would have managed to attack with complete surprise and won Autobot City. Another bad ending

[Optim]

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 12:51:37 p.m. UTC-4, Sky Raider wrote:
>
> There's also the question if opening the Matrix against Unicron (by Optimus, Rodimus, or whoever) would have worked at all unless the Matrix was already inside him, which means we need to have a similar series of events take place where our hero(es) are inside Unicron, survive that far, and have access to the Matrix. None of these are guaranteed in a timeline change.
>
> Fun topic!

Optimus knew the Matrix very well. The Matrix would have told him how to destroy Unicron. It was built for that purpose and I think Optimus would have carried it out successfully.

[Zobovor]

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 10:51:37 AM UTC-6, Sky Raider wrote:

> I have to disagree with Codigo's take because to me the whole point of Hot Rod not interfering and ending up a "human" shield is that Prime was this close to finally pulling the trigger on Megatron, or at the very least capturing him alive.

As far as Prime was concerned, Megatron was unarmed and begging for his life. The notion that Prime would gun him down is nearly unthinkable. The only issue that Hot Rod's interference caused was that after Megatron found a gun and opened fire, Prime was hesitant to shoot back because he didn't want to hit Hot Rod. Without Hot Rod as part of the equation, it seems very likely to me Prime would have still been reluctant to shoot, Megatron still would have gone for the discarded weapon, but Prime would have had the freedom of being able to return fire. It was Megatron's repeated and uncontested barrage that most likely led to Prime's demise. So it seems probable that, weakened and defeated, Megatron would have called the retreat, abandoned Autobot City, and found a way to blame Starscream for that mission's failure.

So now we have a Megatron who never gets dumped into space and never drifts into Unicron's grasp, so no Galvatron. Unicron still makes his way through the heavens, eating planets until he reaches the Moon Bases. This time, though, it's Optimus Prime who rallies the troops to the cause instead of Ultra Magnus, and the Autobot response is arguably more effective without Galvatron's efforts to interfere.

> There's also the question if opening the Matrix against Unicron (by Optimus, Rodimus, or whoever) would have worked at all unless the Matrix was already inside him, which means we need to have a similar series of events take place where our hero(es) are inside Unicron, survive that far, and have access to the Matrix. None of these are guaranteed in a timeline change.

I think it all comes down to how much Optimus knew about the situation. If the ancient leaders from within the Matrix guided Optimus and informed him of the Matrix's power to destroy Unicron, it's likely he would attempt to do so himself. It's not directly stated in the film, but Ultra Magnus' plan seemed to be to simply meet Unicron head-on. So, it's likely Optimus would have done the same thing. Mobilize the Autobot forces, get them into shuttles, and strike at Unicron before he had a chance to eat Cybertron. Optimus would have been willing to sacrifice himself to stop Unicron, in all probability, perhaps even allowing himself to be sucked into Unicron's maw so he could destroy the chaos-bringer from the inside.

There's also the possibility that Optimus would have forged a temporary truce with Megatron and the combined Autobot-Decepticon forces could have teamed up to try to save Cybertron together. I'm sure such an alliance would have been short-lived, but Megatron wasn't completely above putting his differences with Prime aside in order to achieve a common goal. It's strange to think that Starscream might have been around for the fight with Unicron, but that in this alternate unfolding of events, Wreck-Gar or Wheelie would never have come back to the fold. It also means the Transformers' chance reunion with the Quintessons never happens, and they might never have learned who their creators were, nor would the Quintesson attempts at retaking Cybertron in "Five Faces of Darkness" ever come to pass. The landscape of season three would be completely different, with Optimus still alive and Megatron still in command of the Decepticon forces.

And meanwhile, Hot Rod would still dream of doing important things some day, and perhaps have this vague sense that he was always destined for greatness, all the while wondering why it never came to pass...


Zob (Perceptor: "The wounds are deep, but thankfully not fatal...")

[Rodimus_2316]

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:40:12 AM UTC-7, Zobovor wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 10:51:37 AM UTC-6, Sky Raider wrote:
>
> > I have to disagree with Codigo's take because to me the whole point of Hot Rod not interfering and ending up a "human" shield is that Prime was this close to finally pulling the trigger on Megatron, or at the very least capturing him alive.
>
> As far as Prime was concerned, Megatron was unarmed and begging for his life. The notion that Prime would gun him down is nearly unthinkable. The only issue that Hot Rod's interference caused was that after Megatron found a gun and opened fire, Prime was hesitant to shoot back because he didn't want to hit Hot Rod. Without Hot Rod as part of the equation, it seems very likely to me Prime would have still been reluctant to shoot, Megatron still would have gone for the discarded weapon, but Prime would have had the freedom of being able to return fire. It was Megatron's repeated and uncontested barrage that most likely led to Prime's demise. So it seems probable that, weakened and defeated, Megatron would have called the retreat, abandoned Autobot City, and found a way to blame Starscream for that mission's failure.

I agree, but, in your opinion, what exactly would have happened after Megatron got the gun, and Hot Rod didn't interfere, then leading to a damaged (but not dying) Megatron calling a retreat?

> So now we have a Megatron who never gets dumped into space and never drifts into Unicron's grasp, so no Galvatron. Unicron still makes his way through the heavens, eating planets until he reaches the Moon Bases. This time, though, it's Optimus Prime who rallies the troops to the cause instead of Ultra Magnus, and the Autobot response is arguably more effective without Galvatron's efforts to interfere.

What about Astrotrain's inevitable, "Jettison some weight, or I'll never make it to Cybertron!" (which makes no sense, as we all know, as there's no gravity in lone space)? Would Megatron have allowed Starscream's "lightening our burden" and let the other Decepticons dump out Thundercracker, Skywarp, and the Insecticons? If so, would there also have been "too much weight" without jettisoning anyone else? And I guess Unicron wouldn't have remade those five if he couldn't; also remake Megatron into Galvatron.

> > There's also the question if opening the Matrix against Unicron (by Optimus, Rodimus, or whoever) would have worked at all unless the Matrix was already inside him, which means we need to have a similar series of events take place where our hero(es) are inside Unicron, survive that far, and have access to the Matrix. None of these are guaranteed in a timeline change.
>
> I think it all comes down to how much Optimus knew about the situation. If the ancient leaders from within the Matrix guided Optimus and informed him of the Matrix's power to destroy Unicron, it's likely he would attempt to do so himself. It's not directly stated in the film, but Ultra Magnus' plan seemed to be to simply meet Unicron head-on. So, it's likely Optimus would have done the same thing. Mobilize the Autobot forces, get them into shuttles, and strike at Unicron before he had a chance to eat Cybertron. Optimus would have been willing to sacrifice himself to stop Unicron, in all probability, perhaps even allowing himself to be sucked into Unicron's maw so he could destroy the chaos-bringer from the inside.
>
> There's also the possibility that Optimus would have forged a temporary truce with Megatron and the combined Autobot-Decepticon forces could have teamed up to try to save Cybertron together. I'm sure such an alliance would have been short-lived, but Megatron wasn't completely above putting his differences with Prime aside in order to achieve a common goal. It's strange to think that Starscream might have been around for the fight with Unicron, but that in this alternate unfolding of events, Wreck-Gar or Wheelie would never have come back to the fold. It also means the Transformers' chance reunion with the Quintessons never happens, and they might never have learned who their creators were, nor would the Quintesson attempts at retaking Cybertron in "Five Faces of Darkness" ever come to pass. The landscape of season three would be completely different, with Optimus still alive and Megatron still in command of the Decepticon forces.

Did Unicron eat the Moon Bases still? Do you think the Autobots have been able to get back any of Cybertron in this? Just wondering.

> And meanwhile, Hot Rod would still dream of doing important things some day, and perhaps have this vague sense that he was always destined for greatness, all the while wondering why it never came to pass...

I totally agree.

> Zob (Perceptor: "The wounds are deep, but thankfully not fatal...")

- Rodimus_2316

[Zobovor]

On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:26:09 PM UTC-6, Rodimus_2316 wrote:

> I agree, but, in your opinion, what exactly would have happened after Megatron got the gun, and Hot Rod didn't interfere, then leading to a damaged (but not dying) Megatron calling a retreat?

The key difference is that Hot Rod being used as a shield was the reason Prime couldn't fight back. Removing Hot Rod from the equation means that Megatron gets *one* shot, at most, before Prime starts shooting back. Both of them were weakened and damaged. It would have ended in a stalemate. Without a clear advantage, Megatron's pride would have kicked in, eventually, and he would have called the retreat. He would never knowingly risk his own life.

> What about Astrotrain's inevitable, "Jettison some weight, or I'll never make it to Cybertron!" (which makes no sense, as we all know, as there's no gravity in lone space)? Would Megatron have allowed Starscream's "lightening our burden" and let the other Decepticons dump out Thundercracker, Skywarp, and the Insecticons? If so, would there also have been "too much weight" without jettisoning anyone else?

Okay, so a few things here. It's possible Astrotrain was colluding with Starscream. We saw in the past that Astrotrain had designs on Decepticon leadership ("Triple Takeover"), so the possibility exists that he and Starscream had this all worked out. Consider that Megatron was so badly damaged by Prime's final uppercut that he never demonstrated any form of mobility afterwards. He was seriously hurt. But, if the fight had ended differently, Megatron could have still flown away under his own power. All the Decepticons probably could have. If we take Hot Rod out, then the end of the fight between Prime and Megatron changes, and Megatron could just call the retreat and everybody could fly away like normal.

When Starscream came up to Megatron and gave him a good, swift kick, I think he was testing to see what reactions Megatron was capable of. When Megatron failed to react completely, Starscream concocted a plan to load all the Decepticons on board Astrotrain. There's a strong probability Starscream ordered Astrotrain to make up an excuse about dumping some of the damaged troops, in order to give Starscream a legitimate-looking reason to discard Megatron and the others. The only Decepticon who would have likely objected to any of this was Soundwave, but he took at least a few shots from Optimus Prime himself, so he was probably in no condition to fight off an entire shipful of Decepticons. Pretty much everybody on board (Starscream of course, both Triple Changers, the Constructicons) had designs on Decepticon leadership at various points, so it was a volatile situation. Soundwave put in a bid for leadership like everybody else, because voting to go back and recover Megatron would have meant he would have gotten dumped into space as well.

> Did Unicron eat the Moon Bases still? Do you think the Autobots have been able to get back any of Cybertron in this? Just wondering.

It depends on how quickly Optimus Prime managed to mobilize the troops. In the movie that we know and love, Ultra Magnus was busy running from Galvatron and our heroes made unintentional stops on Junkion and Quintessa, which gave Unicron plenty of time to leisurely gobble up both Moon Bases before making it to Cybertron. I think at least one of the Moon Bases would still get devoured, if only because it was Spike and Bumblebee's distress call that originally alerted Ultra Magnus to the problem that was Unicron. Magnus couldn't make a bee-line for Unicron like he planned, because Galvatron showed up and forced the Autobots to high-tail it into space. Remove Hot Rod from the equation, and Megatron never gets badly hurt, Starscream doesn't dump him into space, and Unicron never turns him into Galvatron. So, there would be nothing to stop Optimus Prime from rallying the troops and heading directly for Unicron before he got a chance to eat Moon Base Two. The only reason Galvatron was able to attack so soon after the Autobot City attack was because Unicron gave him a brand-new body—no battle damage and fully-energized. So, if he remained Megatron, he would have needed time to refuel and make repairs following the Autobot City battle. Megatron likely wouldn't have interfered with Prime's attempts to stop Unicron at all.


Zob (wouldn't mind if Unicron gave me a new body... getting old sucks)

[Velvet Glove]

On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 10:50:26 PM UTC+1, Zobovor wrote:
> Remove Hot Rod from the equation, and Megatron never gets badly hurt, Starscream doesn't dump him into space, and Unicron never turns him into Galvatron. So, there would be nothing to stop Optimus Prime from rallying the troops and heading directly for Unicron before he got a chance to eat Moon Base Two. The only reason Galvatron was able to attack so soon after the Autobot City attack was because Unicron gave him a brand-new body—no battle damage and fully-energized. So, if he remained Megatron, he would have needed time to refuel and make repairs following the Autobot City battle. Megatron likely wouldn't have interfered with Prime's attempts to stop Unicron at all.

Oh, now, this is a hypothetical I can get into. If there is no Galvatron, I don't think Unicron attacks Cybertron. I mean, why *does* he create Galvatron in the first place? Because he needs him to get the Matrix--and I think he really needs Megatron for this, because its somebody with the knowledge of the Autobots and the motivation to destroy them; all Unicron needs to do is give him an edge in combat (and enough control over him to make sure he gets the Matrix). Unicron *only* attacks Cybertron after he's got the Matrix on his side (kind of, since Galvatron was rebelling by that point, but Unicron knew he wasn't able to use it).

Anyway, Unicron's exact powers aren't clear, but it seems to me he's been waiting millions of years to get the Matrix, and only kicked his plan into action once he had Megatron/Galvatron under his control. If that opportunity didn't arise, he'd continue patiently waiting. Why provoke the Matrix-bearer into coming after him?

For the sake of this exercise, what would likely happen is that the *Decepticons* rather than Unicron would target the moonbases, just to take an easy target while Prime's occupied on Earth; the Autobots would still have to go on a rescue mission after suffering the catastrophic losses from the opening battle, while Jazz, Cliffjumper, Bumblebee and Spike need to hold the forts until help comes. It's never going to match the movie climax, won't add anything in particular to Transformers lore, but I think the only way Unicron comes into it is if the Autobots stumble across him eating a completely different planet.

Velvet Glove (One of the continuity issues that's always bothered me is that Unicron's been eating planets for 12 million years and... nobody noticed? Isn't this what the Autobots have Kup for?)

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 4:10:53 AM UTC-6, Velvet Glove wrote:

> Anyway, Unicron's exact powers aren't clear, but it seems to me he's been waiting millions of years to get the Matrix, and only kicked his plan into action once he had Megatron/Galvatron under his control. If that opportunity didn't arise, he'd continue patiently waiting. Why provoke the Matrix-bearer into coming after him?

So I guess Unicron was always watching the Matrix from afar. We know he possessed an awareness of Prime's death, and the passing of the Matrix to Magnus. For some reason, he seemed to perceive that as his opportunity to start gobbling up Moon Bases with impunity. Maybe he thought Prime was the only one who could open the Matrix and use its power? And with Prime dead, he knew the opportunity was right to send agents to destroy the Matrix?

You're right—he wouldn't go after Cybertron or the Moon Bases unless he knew nobody could use the Matrix to stop him. So, I need to amend what I said earlier. In an alternate timeline where Prime survived, Unicron wouldn't have gone after the Moon Bases at all. (Lithone was still fair game, though. It would be ironic if he eventually ate Quintessa...)

> One of the continuity issues that's always bothered me is that Unicron's been eating planets for 12 million years and... nobody noticed?

Well, maybe one good-sized planet keeps his belly full for a few million years. (Moon Bases are more like light snacks. The equivalent of a Snickers bar.)


Zob (packed with robots, Cybertron really satisfies!℠)