[Essay] In defense of Raksha.
The_Great_Cornholio
Let me start off by saying, Raksha does NOT need people to come to her
defense, she is quite capable of defending herself. However, I feel a
certain responsibility to myself to post this. Even if I did not consider
Raksha a personal friend, I could not stand by and watch this undeserved and
baffling slander of any ATTer.
For those new TransFans who may not know, Raksha is a vehement supporter of
the Decepticons. She thinks of them as the "good guys" and the Autobots as
the "bad guys". This may sound very odd at first to all the Autobot
supporters. You may think "Well, how could anyone think that?" I won't
recount Raksha's whole line of reasoning here, partly due to space, and
partly because I would probably mess it up and have to face the talons. :)
For those who are curious, you can check her web site at
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1139/index.html
Some people may not agree with Raksha on most issues. But THAT DOES NOT give
anyone the right to post these kinds of personal attacks. If you disagree
fine, post and tell us why. But please don't do so in a hostile and
threatning way. I myself have had disagreements with her in the past, but
things always remained civil and respectful. Personal attacks are almost
always inappropriate for any reason, and to attack someone for merely
stating an opinion is shameful IMHO. (And no, I am not talking merely about
the most personal and hostile post either, there were a lot more than that.)
And really, the whole thread has another, more subtle problem. I freely
admit I have not read the whole thing, so I very much hope I have only seen
the bad posts. But, those I have seen actually had very little to say. They
seemed to be long drawn out, and needlessly hostile versions of "You're
wrong." I don't expect everyone to be completely familiar with Raksha's
point of view, and therefore be able to debate the point.
HOWEVER, the fact is, her essay *was not about* who the good guys are. Her
post was about her disenchantment with the current cartoon and toy lines.
And even the people who actually responded to that particular point went
overboard, IMHO. I saw a lot of ramblings, but very little actual content of
"I disagree with you, and here is a list of flaws in your thinking or
alternate viewpoints about this or that point." Instead we saw, again, very
long versions of "you're wrong". And further, people were using Raksha's
particular views (calling the Predacons "the Decepticons" for example) as
some sort of "proof" that she is stupid or wrong or *something*.
Some of these posts seemed to me to be very pointless. People, for some
reason, assume that their particualr take on the Transformers is the only
correct one, and everyone else must be wrong. When Raksha posts something in
support of her viewpoint, these people get all riled up and start either
flaming away, or post the rambling "You're wrong" messages. I submit to you
that Raksha's views are JUST AS VALID as anyone else's. Guess what folks,
this aint' religion or particle physics, this is a fictional world with a
thousand different interpretations of EVERYTHING. Ever see the "Brawn is
Dead" threads?
On a more personal note, I would just like to say that I too am a Decepticon
fan and supporter, although not quite SO much as Raksha. I for one feel I
have a pretty good grasp of why Raksha thinks the way she does, and let me
tell you : there are no logical flaws, no blind spots, that I can see. You
may DISAGREE with the emphasis she puts on one thing versus another (and I
do on several points). But merely disagreeing with someone does NOT make
them wrong, or stupid, or anything else. I would ask that ALL Decepticon
fans be treated with the same courtesy as the Autobot fans.
/----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|Burt Ward Skyflight@TF2k5 http://www.wvinter.net/~beavis/tf/ |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|*G+++ FR+ FW- M++(2) #(70) D++ AD+ N+++ | Bah Weep Granna [Y] Beavis@ |
| W++ B+ OQP BC96/97+ MUTLY++ OM+ P(272) | Weep ni ni bong \|/ cris.com|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Transformers! More than you can buy. Transformers! Prices are sky high! |
|Autobots rose in value so now you have no money to.. buy Decepticons! |
\----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Tengu
In article <65oa5t$a...@examiner.concentric.net>, Bea...@cris.com says...
>
> Let me start off by saying, Raksha does NOT need people to come to her
> defense, she is quite capable of defending herself. However, I feel a
> certain responsibility to myself to post this. Even if I did not consider
> Raksha a personal friend, I could not stand by and watch this undeserved and
> baffling slander of any ATTer.
Though the baffling slander of people like Kendrick is OK? Face
it, ridiculous discussions like this don't belong on this newsgroup. If
Raksha's so capable of defending herself, let her- I'd personally be
offended if so many people were discussion my business publicly.
> Some people may not agree with Raksha on most issues. But THAT DOES NOT give
> anyone the right to post these kinds of personal attacks.
Well, the only "rights" anyone has on a forum like this are the
rights that they decide to limit themselves to, or the "rights" that
others impose by force- if possible. People have the "right" to do
whatever they want; it's *courtesy* and *etiquette* that keep Usenet from
being useless. Public flame-backs are neither courteous, nor do they
show a sincere appreciation of etiquette.
> HOWEVER, the fact is, her essay *was not about* who the good guys are. Her
> post was about her disenchantment with the current cartoon and toy lines.
In the way she expresses this sentiment, you have to assume that
those who are *nuts* over the show and toy lines *could* be offended.
Raksha doesn't *just* simply state "honest opinion." She calls people's
favorite characters "scumbastards" and the like. No offense, but if I
had a nine-year-old child reading this newsgroup with me (whose favorite
character was Megatron, or *any* Predacon), I'd be miffed at such
comments, to say the least.
> And even the people who actually responded to that particular point went
> overboard, IMHO. I saw a lot of ramblings, but very little actual content of
> "I disagree with you, and here is a list of flaws in your thinking or
> alternate viewpoints about this or that point." Instead we saw, again, very
> long versions of "you're wrong". And further, people were using Raksha's
> particular views (calling the Predacons "the Decepticons" for example) as
> some sort of "proof" that she is stupid or wrong or *something*.
I find this interesting on a variety of levels. Personally, I
have no problems with Raksha aside from one, and it's a civil criticism.
Whenever I *have* posted a list of logical flaws in her reasoning, or
have argued her points in a consistent manner, I've gotten no response
(more than one discussion). I don't appreciate individuals who espouse
great strength in their convictions but don't even address valid
criticisms to them based on logic.
> Some of these posts seemed to me to be very pointless. People, for some
> reason, assume that their particualr take on the Transformers is the only
> correct one, and everyone else must be wrong.
Sounds damned familiar.
> Guess what folks,
> this aint' religion or particle physics, this is a fictional world with a
> thousand different interpretations of EVERYTHING. Ever see the "Brawn is
> Dead" threads?
"Brawn is('nt) Dead?" What's that? ;-)
> On a more personal note, I would just like to say that I too am a Decepticon
> fan and supporter, although not quite SO much as Raksha. I for one feel I
> have a pretty good grasp of why Raksha thinks the way she does, and let me
> tell you : there are no logical flaws, no blind spots, that I can see.
Kant's categorical imperative. One example of a philosophical
argument that evaporates the "Decepticons are morally right" argument.
Of course, bringing it into a "Decepticons are Evil" discussion will most
likely get you ignored. I know from experience.
In the long run though, I could really give a rat's ass about who
the "good guys" and "bad guys" are in a fictional universe. ;-)
Tengu:<>
Raksha
A little weird to be posting in a thread with this title, but what the
hell..... :)
On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:37:25 -0500, te...@ix.netcom.com (Tengu) wrote:
>In article <65oa5t$a...@examiner.concentric.net>, Bea...@cris.com says...
>>Even if I did not consider
>> Raksha a personal friend, I could not stand by and watch this undeserved and
>> baffling slander of any ATTer.
>
> Though the baffling slander of people like Kendrick is OK?
Go take another look at your backlog. My "baffling slander" of
Kendrick consisted of a description of factual events mixed liberally
with my opinion of what I thought of them -- which was in response to
a whole host of vicious and presumptuous fabrications which he first
posted about me, things that he pulled completely out of the blue and
had no basis in anything I'd ever said or done at all. I did in fact
take an earlier disagreement with him to e-mail, for the very reason
that I did *not* want to shred him publically on the newsgroup. But
this latest bit, which *he* deliberately took public -- no, I'm sorry,
that deserved a public response in kind, and you will hear no remorse
from me.
Funny how you feel my response was inappropriate, when you
don't feel the original post was inappropriate. Did you miss it
completely, or are you honestly, perfectly okay with it? If so, it's
rather an example of "It's justified if it's done by someone on the
'right' side" -- "right" being of course the side that you personally
happen to agree with. I've caught this sentiment before -- that it's
okay to make personal attacks against someone who is obviously "wrong
and evil", simply for no other reason than that they *are* "in the
wrong" as you perceive it - but gods forbid that the tables are
turned! It's that same attitude that I see in the Autobot/Decepticon
interactions which I'm so critical of -- that it's okay for the
Autobots to commit the exact same atrocities against the Decepticons
that the Decepticons do to the Autobots, but from the 'Bots it's
"justified" because the Decepticons are so "obviously the evil ones,"
but from the Decepticons it's some kind of an outrage (rather than
seeing it for what it is -- two sides at war, with irreconcilable
philosophical differences, neither "right" nor "wrong" in anything
other than a purely subjective sense). Now, doesn't that strike you
as just the tiniest bit warped?
> In the way she expresses this sentiment, you have to assume that
>those who are *nuts* over the show and toy lines *could* be offended.
Okay, example: I love the Action Masters. I've heard more slams
against the Action Masters than any other subset of toys, up to and
including Beast Wars. If I were so inclined, sure, I *could* be
offended by attacks on the AMs, since it's so obvious to *me* why
they're wonderful -- but, shall I go pout and be offended by that, or
shall I point out what I think is excellent about them, and then if
people still hate them, well, that's fine, that's their choice?
They're as welcome to hate Action Masters as I am to like them, and
I'm as welcome to hate BW as you are to like it. If you're going to
be *offended* by someone stating their likes and dislikes, then
perhaps a fan forum isn't the best place in the world to hang out....
>Raksha doesn't *just* simply state "honest opinion." She calls people's
>favorite characters "scumbastards" and the like. No offense, but if I
>had a nine-year-old child reading this newsgroup with me (whose favorite
>character was Megatron, or *any* Predacon), I'd be miffed at such
>comments, to say the least.
Ahhh -- GOOD!!! *Now* we have some common ground to build on!! :)
Keep that very scenario in mind, please, as you read the reply.
How often have I had to endure people clamoring that "the
Decepticons are Nazis and Megatron is just like Hitler"? How many
times have I had to see the characters I love best, dismissed as
thoughtless backstabbers without motive and personality? How many
insults toward *my* favorite characters run here every single day? How
do you think I feel about *that*? But once again, if I were to take
every slur against Megatron or Soundwave, etc., as a personal attack
upon myself, then I'd never return here again. Sure I get defensive
about it, because as I said, those *are* my favorite characters and I
get indignant on their behalf -- but what's the solution? To consider
it a personal slam toward myself, or to point out logically and with
plenty of evidence, why such statements are simply not true? I dare
say the latter is a more rational approach, both for the "defender"
and the "insulter." It means that the "defender" doesn't feel
personally assaulted, and the "insulter" may in fact learn something
about the character that they so summarily dismissed -- and even if
the original opinion remains firmly in place (there's nothing you can
say to convince me that the Pretender to the Name is a worthwhile
leader, for instance, because he's commited "sins" for which, IMO,
there is no possible absolution), then at the very least you've had an
exchange of opinions and viewpoints, and someone *else* may find
something of value in it.
But once again, to be offended because I point out what scum
characters like the Pretender are, or I point out how the Autobots
aren't nearly so "good" in any universal sense, and then claim I have
no right to respond when someone slanders the real Megatron, is a
little silly. If you think the Pretender (or Optimus Prime, or
whoever) is wonderful, then defend him -- but don't go attacking me
because I think he isn't and will tell you *why*.
>Whenever I *have* posted a list of logical flaws in her reasoning, or
>have argued her points in a consistent manner, I've gotten no response
>(more than one discussion). I don't appreciate individuals who espouse
>great strength in their convictions but don't even address valid
>criticisms to them based on logic.
While I would dearly love to respond to *every single point*, that
would mean that I would spend every waking moment here, and believe it
or not, I have another life too -- animals to care for, a dissertation
to pursue, other TF activities that bring me a lot of enjoyment and
aren't riddled with conflict. If I've ignored your points, it was
done so out of a lack of time rather than a lack of interest. And
admittedly, when things descend into flames, I do ignore a lot of
them, because once again I just don't have the time and the energy.
If you do have valid points to make for your view, then I'd love to
discuss them with you, whether here or by e-mail, *if* I have the
opportunity -- and *if* you don't decide to be personally offended if
I'm not overwhelmed by the rightness of your reasoning and join you in
your outlook ... which seems to be KKC's problem, come to think of
it.....
Okay, so that last bit was uncalled-for ... but hey, I believe
in an eye for an eye.... ;) Seriously, if you feel that your
statements have been deliberately ignored, I can only assure you that
it has more to do with limited opportunity than limited interest.
On that note ... someone was clamoring for an apology or some such --
and I will not, by any means or in any way, apologize for my views of
the Decepticons, the Autobots, the BW cartoon, the current state of
the toys, the nature of the Hasbro execs, the entertainment value of
the Movie, the Headmasters concept, Andrew Wildman's artwork, or
whatever else I seem to hold heretical outlooks on -- because that is,
simply, the way I see it, no more or no less deserving of being stated
than anyone else's view. The problem being that it *is* the largely
unpopular view, the one that's not currently "socially accepted," and
so it raises people's ire -- but that doesn't mean I'm going to back
down from stating my thoughts.
What I *will* apologize for, is that it looked to some people
that I was calling BW fans indiscriminate idiots. Which I was *not*,
I'll point out once again -- if you like the show as it is, then I
certainly don't have a problem with that -- but if you feel as I do
that some vital element is missing, then don't just feel you have to
accept it without comment. Just like I keep trying to point out that
it's not necessary to accept a label on a toy box as your
interpretation of that character or his faction -- *not* saying that
those who go along with the label are stupid for doing so, but saying
that it wouldn't hurt to try to look at it from the other side too,
that there *is* another way to interpret that same picture. If only
to be able to understand the reasoning of someone who sees things
differently, rather than taking the disagreement as a personal
affront. *That* was the gist of my messages. If it came across
otherwise, then *this* is what I apologize for -- for not having made
my meaning sufficiently clear.
Now if that's out of the way, let's get back to business. For
my part, I'll try to return more to the tactics of defending what's
good rather than attacking what's bad ... with the exception of the
Pretender to the Name, of course..... ;)
--Raksha
--------------------------------------------------------
"I am the Plumed Serpent, I strike and I soar!"
--------------------------------------------------------
All-time favorite Transformer: Soundwave ("The secrets
of the Universe reveal themselves to those who listen.")
--------------------------------------------------------
jk...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu | Dept. of Zoology
John Bartos
Raksha wrote in message <3480746c...@news-stand.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
>and I will not, by any means or in any way, apologize for my views of
>the Decepticons, the Autobots, the BW cartoon, the current state of
>the toys, the nature of the Hasbro execs, the entertainment value of
>the Movie, the Headmasters concept, Andrew Wildman's artwork, or
>whatever else I seem to hold heretical outlooks on -- because that is,
I'm just curious - what don't you like about the Headmasters concept?
John
Tengu
In article <3480746c...@news-stand.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
jk...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu says...
> Funny how you feel my response was inappropriate, when you
> don't feel the original post was inappropriate. Did you miss it
> completely, or are you honestly, perfectly okay with it?
I was OK with it, because it honestly didn't seem to me like
slander. I don't know you personally, Raksha, and really don't care what
personal problems you have with individuals on this group. Speaking from
the perspective of someone who knows nothing about your relationship with
Kendrick, I can honestly say his post seemed like a sincere understanding
of who you are. If it wasn't, then I suppose I wasn't in a position to
say so- you're the only one who can say when someone's slandering you.
> If so, it's
> rather an example of "It's justified if it's done by someone on the
> 'right' side" -- "right" being of course the side that you personally
> happen to agree with. I've caught this sentiment before -- that it's
> okay to make personal attacks against someone who is obviously "wrong
> and evil", simply for no other reason than that they *are* "in the
> wrong" as you perceive it - but gods forbid that the tables are
> turned!
Don't try and pull this with me Raksha, it's not going to work. I
will not be drawn into a philosophical discussion by someone who has
proven to me in the past that they have no interest in ground rules of
debate. I deny your slippery slope.
> It's that same attitude that I see in the Autobot/Decepticon
> interactions which I'm so critical of -- that it's okay for the
> Autobots to commit the exact same atrocities against the Decepticons
> that the Decepticons do to the Autobots, but from the 'Bots it's
> "justified" because the Decepticons are so "obviously the evil ones,"
Sorry, I'm not going there with you. You see, I wasn't trying to
infer that I understand your perspective anymore; I've tried in the past
to do so, and have lost interest. I won't argue on the point of whether
your perspective is "valid" or not. It's valid to you, and not to me;
I've never stated otherwise. Trying to hit me with your opinion when
it's attached to a sledgehammer won't work. Quite frankly, what you
believe does not affect what *I* believe to any substantial degree.
> but from the Decepticons it's some kind of an outrage (rather than
> seeing it for what it is -- two sides at war, with irreconcilable
> philosophical differences, neither "right" nor "wrong" in anything
> other than a purely subjective sense). Now, doesn't that strike you
> as just the tiniest bit warped?
Not really. You see, I still firmly believe that "Transformers"
consists of a bunch of neat toys and stories. I don't base my worldview
on it.
> If you're going to
> be *offended* by someone stating their likes and dislikes, then
> perhaps a fan forum isn't the best place in the world to hang out....
A cute, though largely ineffective, statement. You see, my ego
doesn't enter into this discussion nearly so far as yours apparently
does. My statement was fairly blunt, I thought: *fans* get offended if
you poop on what they like. No offense, but my understanding of that
precept makes this an *ideal* place for me to "hang out."
> >No offense, but if I
> >had a nine-year-old child reading this newsgroup with me (whose favorite
> >character was Megatron, or *any* Predacon), I'd be miffed at such
> >comments, to say the least.
>
> How often have I had to endure people clamoring that "the
> Decepticons are Nazis and Megatron is just like Hitler"? How many
> times have I had to see the characters I love best, dismissed as
> thoughtless backstabbers without motive and personality? How many
> insults toward *my* favorite characters run here every single day? How
> do you think I feel about *that*? But once again, if I were to take
> every slur against Megatron or Soundwave, etc., as a personal attack
> upon myself, then I'd never return here again.
My example had nothing to do with an adult with supposedly adult
sensibilities. Why bring in unrelated arguments? *I* wasn't offended by
your use of swear words; I simply noted that such drivel could negatively
affect children. Etiquette shouldn't "turn off" when someone makes you
go boo-hoo.
> Sure I get defensive
> about it, because as I said, those *are* my favorite characters and I
> get indignant on their behalf -- but what's the solution?
According to what you wrote above, it's to use words like
"scumbastard."
> But once again, to be offended because I point out what scum
> characters like the Pretender are, or I point out how the Autobots
> aren't nearly so "good" in any universal sense, and then claim I have
> no right to respond when someone slanders the real Megatron, is a
> little silly.
Why are you writing this? I never stated my "offense" at any of
the above. Don't put those words in my mouth.
> If you think the Pretender (or Optimus Prime, or
> whoever) is wonderful, then defend him -- but don't go attacking me
> because I think he isn't and will tell you *why*.
I *didn't* attack you. What is your problem? Do you get so antsy
about *anyone* who disagrees with your *presentation*?
> >Whenever I *have* posted a list of logical flaws in her reasoning, or
> >have argued her points in a consistent manner, I've gotten no response
> >(more than one discussion). I don't appreciate individuals who espouse
> >great strength in their convictions but don't even address valid
> >criticisms to them based on logic.
>
> While I would dearly love to respond to *every single point*, that
> would mean that I would spend every waking moment here, and believe it
> or not, I have another life too -- animals to care for, a dissertation
> to pursue, other TF activities that bring me a lot of enjoyment and
> aren't riddled with conflict.
Rhetoric at best. You obviously spend enough time here to attack
*certain* arguments with great zeal. Unfortunately, it's never the
arguments that logically assault your opinion. However, that is my
personal perspective.
> And
> admittedly, when things descend into flames, I do ignore a lot of
> them, because once again I just don't have the time and the energy.
> If you do have valid points to make for your view, then I'd love to
> discuss them with you, whether here or by e-mail, *if* I have the
> opportunity -- and *if* you don't decide to be personally offended if
> I'm not overwhelmed by the rightness of your reasoning and join you in
> your outlook ... which seems to be KKC's problem, come to think of
> it.....
Raksha, I have no idea what this was all about. I don't claim to
want to change your staunch beliefs, nor do I think it would be
entertaining to do so. And arguing minutiae involving TFs is not a
lifestyle for me. It's entertainment.
> Okay, so that last bit was uncalled-for ... but hey, I believe
> in an eye for an eye.... ;) Seriously, if you feel that your
> statements have been deliberately ignored, I can only assure you that
> it has more to do with limited opportunity than limited interest.
Fine, I'll believe that the next time I see you answer ten weak
arguments and *not* "miss" two strong ones.
> Now if that's out of the way, let's get back to business. For
> my part, I'll try to return more to the tactics of defending what's
> good rather than attacking what's bad ... with the exception of the
> Pretender to the Name, of course..... ;)
Business it is, then.
Tengu:<>
lta...@netpath.net
Well said Tengu. Hmmm, let's see now...I believe the score is:
Tengu 1
Raksha 0
I finally figured out a way to get a bit of enjoyment out of Raksha's
same ole boring posts: I read the responses of others and then wait to
see how many times little Ms. Scream n' Bitch has to post to back up her
delusions. Keep up the good work everyone =P
Leemur
--
Signature? You mean I've got to sign this thing?
Where's my light pen? Hey, my computer didn't come
with a light pen!
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
MicroZone
>> Some people may not agree with Raksha on most issues. But THAT DOES NOT give
> anyone the right to post these kinds of personal attacks.
Granted, Kendrick's post was way out of line, but he was not the one that
claimed that anyone who liked Beast Wars or Autobots were mindless sheep
incapable of coming up with their own conclusions on Transformers. Raksha was.
Almost no one here really minds if she hates BW or Autobots. The beef was the
notion that only she was smart enough to see how stupid we all were.
MicroZone
MicroZone
Raksha wrote:
>They're as welcome to hate Action Masters as I am to like them, and
I'm as welcome to hate BW as you are to like it. <
Can you honestly say that if someone posted a huge essay claiming that anyone
who liked Action Masters didn't have enough brains to know that Hasbro was
feeding them crap, that you wouldn't be offended? If you can then I guess
you're a better person than most of us.
MicroZone
MicroZone
Raksha wrote:
> What I *will* apologize for, is that it looked to some people
that I was calling BW fans indiscriminate idiots. Which I was *not*,
I'll point out once again -- if you like the show as it is, then I
certainly don't have a problem with that -- but if you feel as I do
that some vital element is missing, then don't just feel you have to
accept it without comment. Just like I keep trying to point out that
it's not necessary to accept a label on a toy box as your
interpretation of that character or his faction -- *not* saying that
those who go along with the label are stupid for doing so, but saying
that it wouldn't hurt to try to look at it from the other side too,
that there *is* another way to interpret that same picture. If only
to be able to understand the reasoning of someone who sees things
differently, rather than taking the disagreement as a personal
affront. *That* was the gist of my messages. If it came across
otherwise, then *this* is what I apologize for -- for not having made
my meaning sufficiently clear.<
Thank you.
MicroZone
MicroZone
>I'm just curious - what don't you like about the Headmasters concept?<
What, besides those little squishies controlling a Transformer? Ugh.
(See Raksha we do agree on a few things. ;-) )
Not that the notion of those little robots controlling them from the HEAD
MASTERS cartoon was much better, but just not as bad. More like the sniffles
vs. the flu. I'd rather not have either one, but if I only have those two
choices....
MicroZone
Robert A. Jung
In article <19971130014...@ladder02.news.aol.com> micr...@aol.com (MicroZone) writes:
>Raksha wrote:
>>They're as welcome to hate Action Masters as I am to like them, and
>>I'm as welcome to hate BW as you are to like it. <
>
>who liked Action Masters didn't have enough brains to know that Hasbro was
>feeding them crap, that you wouldn't be offended?
I'll just say that I wouldn't bet money on Raksha losing her cool. She's
not half as uncontrolled as many people would think...
--R.J.
B-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and if other people are
amused by it, then it's fine. If they're not, then that's also fine."
Send mail to rj...@netcom.com --Frank Zappa
------- Visit Rob on the web! ------ http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/ -------
Joona I Palaste
Raksha <jk...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> scribbled the following:
: How often have I had to endure people clamoring that "the
: Decepticons are Nazis and Megatron is just like Hitler"? How many
Hey, I am troubled by such posts, too, but of different reasons. I
don't argue about DECEPTICONS or MEGATRON, I argue about HITLER. Why
does every American and most of the other people in the world have to
view Adolf Hitler as some sort of utterly evil dæmon, who came to Earth
just to kill whomever he could get his hands on? I'm not saying Hitler
was a saint, or even particularly good, because the things he made the
Nazis do in some places were inexcusable. But if you put these things
aside, you will see that Hitler was just a man. He had some good
qualities too. For one, he seemed a well-organised man, who kept his
goals well and true in his mind and pursued hard to reach them, even
if they were the wrong goals, according to us. AND I seem to remember
he was an absolutist, unlike our very own C.G.Mannerheim, who was
often remembered drinking brandy or something. So please, don't bash
off Hitler just because of the Nazis. Thanks.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Joona Palaste | | | |
| pal...@cc.helsinki.fi | | | |
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" |------- -----------------|
| |------- -----------------|
| G++ FR FW+ M- #80 D+ ADA N+++ W++ B OP+ | | | |
| Finland rules! => | | | |
\----------------------------------------------------------------------/
Cyclonus: What is this place?
Daniel: An ice cream factory?
Cyclonus: You are insolent, Earth boy!
Daniel: Thanks!
--- from "Surprise Party"
Accualt
>But if you put these things
>aside, you will see that Hitler was just a man.
Uh hu....your point is? Besides the actions make the man.
>For one, he seemed a well-organised man, who kept his
>goals well and true in his mind and pursued hard to reach them, even
>if they were the wrong goals, according to us.
So lots of people are that way.
>AND I seem to remember he was an absolutist, unlike our very >own
C.G.Mannerheim <snip>
I don't know who your talking about so never mind.
>So please, don't bash
>off Hitler just because of the Nazis. Thanks.
Wait your missing something here. His life was the Nazis. He turned them from
what ever they had been, which wasn't killers, and turned them into an army of
killers for no resian other then the people they killed thought different. The
guy tried to have every last jew (and some other ethnic people who I forgot)
killed. why stand up for scum? Megatron is better then Hitler. Hes not trying
to kill every Autobot or human or anything else. So listen when some one talks
about Hitler I would saggest you don't stand up for him cause have you ever
meet someone who was in the holocost? If you have you should know where I am
comming from.
Accualt
"::Terrosaur pulls a flaming alien anal probe out of his butt:: I hate being
dead."
"::Accualt sits around:: Yeah me too buddy...me too..."
Joona I Palaste
Accualt <acc...@aol.com> scribbled the following:
: >But if you put these things
: >aside, you will see that Hitler was just a man.
: Uh hu....your point is? Besides the actions make the man.
My point is that although Hitler did horrible things, he as a man wasn't
so bad nothing good could ever be said about him.
: >For one, he seemed a well-organised man, who kept his
: >goals well and true in his mind and pursued hard to reach them, even
: >if they were the wrong goals, according to us.
: So lots of people are that way.
Exactly. From some points of view Hitler didn't qualify as a person.
Hitler IS a person, damn it.
: >AND I seem to remember he was an absolutist, unlike our very >own
: C.G.Mannerheim <snip>
: I don't know who your talking about so never mind.
The only Finn ever to rise to the rank of marshal, outranking the rank
of general.
: >So please, don't bash
: >off Hitler just because of the Nazis. Thanks.
: Wait your missing something here. His life was the Nazis. He turned them from
: what ever they had been, which wasn't killers, and turned them into an army of
: killers for no resian other then the people they killed thought different. The
: guy tried to have every last jew (and some other ethnic people who I forgot)
: killed. why stand up for scum? Megatron is better then Hitler. Hes not trying
: to kill every Autobot or human or anything else. So listen when some one talks
: about Hitler I would saggest you don't stand up for him cause have you ever
: meet someone who was in the holocost? If you have you should know where I am
: comming from.
Ugh... bad spelling there... but I'll try not to think about that.
You're right, the Nazis wouldn't have been killers if it wasn't for
Hitler, but were they still horrible dćmons? They killed Jews because
Hitler told them to, not because they thought it was fun. Hitler told
them to kill Jews because he thought it was in the interest of the
Aryan race, not because HE thought it was fun. When someone talks about
Hitler I suggest YOU base your actions on whether they are talking
about the Nazi killings or Hitler as a person. Once more, I am not
trying to stand up for Hitler as a Nazi leader, but as a person. If I
said "One good point about Hitler was that he didn't drink so much
alcoholic drinks", would you name me a Nazi killer and throw stones at
me? If you would you would be a victim of stereotypia. But your last
sentence about the "holocaust" intrigues me. I am interested in hearing
the story of your origin.
MicroZone
(remarks snipped)
I can't believe anyone would defend this evil son of a bitch. When did this
become the KKK newsgroup? Hitler was responsible for the murder of millions of
men, women and children. Do not dismiss this off by saying he had good points
too. Why do people today refuse to accept the fact that there just some really
f***ing evil people in this world, by trying to sugar-coat what they did. "Oh
he just did it for Aryan people." Bull$#!t. He did it because he was a monster.
Period.
Despite the current popular acceptance of political correctness, and no matter
how often the political/social elite say we can not judge others by own own
morals there are still such things in this world as right and wrong. The longer
this world goes without enough common sense to accept the fact the bigger a
hole we're digging for ourselves and our world.
MicroZone
Illmatar
The scariest part of Hilter and the evil he did is that he WAS a man. Of
course he as a person. Of course there were aspects of his personality that
were less evil than others. THAT'S the danger. We are all people. We are all
capable of good and evil, and we are judged on the choices we make. Hilter
chose to put himself in power by uniting the German people against imaginary
enemies. Germany was in a terrible economic state after WWI. Its people were
suffering from both economic and spiritual depression. Hilter took advantage
of that situation and stepped in - capitalizing on the human need to feel
special, and the desire to feel "better" than others. This need fuels
everything from benign loyalties like being a loyal fan of whatever sports
team, to more malignant things like racial and religious prejudice.
It didn't take much prodding for him to fan the flames of anti-Semitism, as
well as hatred against other minorities like Bohemians (Gypsies), certain
foreigners, and gay people.
He did it for power though - not any real loyalty to the Aryan race. He was
part Jewish for one thing. For another, (and I can't claim to remeber the
quote exactly) he said something to the effect that if you wanted to control a
population all you had to do was tell big lies. He said everyone tells little
lies, and therefore everyone is wary of them, but that they would never believe
someone in power was capable was huge lies.....therefore the people would
believe them.
Hitler, like the rest of us, was a normal human man. Not a demon. Not a
monster. Why do we always think true evil must somehow not be human? When
have you ever met evil that was anything BUT human? Let that be the warning.
If you want to see the face of the darkest evil, you need look no further than
your mirror. You are capable of it, even as he was, and you will be judged by
your actions.
Saying "Well, he had some good points," is exactly what let him get away with
what he did. All those that followed him share his guilt, and they were just
regular, ordinary people too. And they, in their willingness to say "He's good
for Germany", "He's fixing our economy", "I have a job now thanks to him"
committed the largest single act of genocide in history.
Do you think its over? Do you watch the news? We, we humans, still kill daily
for petty reasons. Only the scale is different. After all - HItler was ...
organized.
Illm...@aol.com
alt.toys.transformers
Megatron33
>I can't believe anyone would defend this evil son of a bitch.
He is not evil. There is no uiniversaly accepted definition of evil. Therefore
to YOU he was evil MZ, to others he was GREAT. Personally I hate him, but do I
believe he is evil? Yes but that is by my own personal definition that I use
when I think.He may not be evil, he may not be good, it all just depends on
which definition of good or evil a person uses and whoever acepts that
definition.
>When did this
>become the KKK newsgroup?
It never did. KKK and the Nazis are two very different groups if Iam not
mistaken.
>He did it because he was a monster.
No he was a human. A human who wanted power. A human who did what he thought
would get him power. He is a human, not a monster; and that makes it even more
terrifying then if he was a monster.
> there are still such things in this world as right and wrong
the concept is there, but no universal definition that is accepted. What others
think is right may seem wrong to others and vice versa.For example
theoretically, Communism was the right thing to do,
theoretically.Realistically, Communism went wrong but they had right
intentions, making every person equal.People in the US saw this as wrong, but
theoretically the Communists saw this as the right thing to do for thier
people.
Megat...@aol.com
"Unyielding fury and rage have no LIVING opposition."
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] <----- Energon
http://www.members.aol.com/megatron33/transformers.html
Disruptor
MicroZone wrote:
>
> (remarks snipped)
Good points Microzone and now that this has wandered completely off
topic of this newsgroup I call this thread officially dead. If you want
to continue the debates could you please take it to E-mail or a
newsgroup that handles theese kinds of debates.
Phalanx
On 30 Nov 1997 15:30:56 GMT, Joona I Palaste
<pal...@cc.helsinki.fi[REMOVE ME TO ACCESS E-MAIL]> wrote:
>Raksha <jk...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> scribbled the following:
>
>: How often have I had to endure people clamoring that "the
>: Decepticons are Nazis and Megatron is just like Hitler"? How many
>
>Hey, I am troubled by such posts, too, but of different reasons. I
>don't argue about DECEPTICONS or MEGATRON, I argue about HITLER. Why
>does every American and most of the other people in the world have to
>view Adolf Hitler as some sort of utterly evil dæmon, who came to Earth
>just to kill whomever he could get his hands on? I'm not saying Hitler
>was a saint, or even particularly good, because the things he made the
>Nazis do in some places were inexcusable. But if you put these things
>aside, you will see that Hitler was just a man. He had some good
>qualities too. For one, he seemed a well-organised man, who kept his
>goals well and true in his mind and pursued hard to reach them, even
>if they were the wrong goals, according to us.
>
All I wanna add is that Hitler was also one of the most brilliant and
riling speakers in the history of mankind. Now I know a lot of people
are going to take this the wrong way, but a lot of his speeches and
his way of presenting them should be a part of any serious journalism
course. Too many people want to dismiss him as an idiot or even make
fun of him. Well, stupid is the last thing he ever was.
(Pointing this out doesn't make me a KKK member, btw.)
>AND I seem to remember
>he was an absolutist, unlike our very own C.G.Mannerheim, who was
>often remembered drinking brandy or something. So please, don't bash
>off Hitler just because of the Nazis. Thanks.
-Phalanx
___________
one woman Prowl defense set: Pha...@Cyberhighway.net
no assembly required.
you can call me Pha for short.
___________
'Time' magazine just voted Prowl The Sexiest Man Alive.
Are you missing something?
____________________________________________----
www.cyberhighway.net/~batlborn/
Joona I Palaste
Illmatar <illm...@aol.com> scribbled the following:
: Saying "Well, he had some good points," is exactly what let him get away with
: what he did. All those that followed him share his guilt, and they were just
: regular, ordinary people too. And they, in their willingness to say "He's good
: for Germany", "He's fixing our economy", "I have a job now thanks to him"
: committed the largest single act of genocide in history.
You still don't get it, do you? Those comments you mentioned relate to
the Nazis. Hitler had some good points NOT relating to Nazis. You seem
to be quite keen to expand his Nazi influence over to all matters
concerning him. Hey, let's try your theory: Hitler made some fairly
good artistic paintings prior to World War I in Austria. I rather liked
these paintings. Hitler later proceeded to make horrific, inexcusable
acts against the Jews. Now according to your logic, my liking Hitler's
paintings makes me an anti-Semitist who wants to kill all Jews. Case
closed, or rather not. Hitler was more than just a Nazi leader. Not much
more, but still more. He had human qualities too.
Robert A. Jung
In article <19971130181...@ladder02.news.aol.com> illm...@aol.com (Illmatar) writes:
>He did it for power though - not any real loyalty to the Aryan race. He was
>part Jewish for one thing.
Not to get on a religion-bashing trip again (yeah, I know, too late), but
for the record, Hitler considered himself to be a devout Christian. There are
lots of quotes in his speeches and public writings where he talked about how
he was motivated by his faith in the Bible. He considered his Jewish
background to be a shameful thing, and there was a deliberate effort to
supress or denouce that fact whenever it came up.
On a more metaphysical point, I'm personally wary of most attempts to bring
Hitler or the Nazis into any sort of debate (especially on the net). If you
need to bring in Hitler to make a point, perhaps your point is not as strong
as you'd like us to believe.
MicroZone
>Good points Microzone and now that this has wandered completely off
topic of this newsgroup I call this thread officially dead. If you want
to continue the debates could you please take it to E-mail or a
newsgroup that handles theese kinds of debates.<
First off I wasn't the one that started this nonsense so don't pawn this off on
me. I will not in good conscience let such a statement go unchallanged. If
anyone here wants to continue to defend this monster (and he IS a monster no
matter what anyone wants to claim) they are welcome to it. I spoke my peace on
the subject.
MicroZone
John Bartos
Robert A. Jung wrote in message ...
>
> On a more metaphysical point, I'm personally wary of most attempts to
bring
>Hitler or the Nazis into any sort of debate (especially on the net). If
you
>need to bring in Hitler to make a point, perhaps your point is not as
strong
>as you'd like us to believe.
>
Look up Godwin's Law. :)
John
Raksha
Alright ... *once* more this time around. (Excuse me a second
while I go straighten my horns and polish my pitchfork.... ;) ) One
final bit of clarification that I felt was necessary.
I'm going to let the rest of the post go without comment because I'm
tired of dredging up the same old thing again and again, but:
On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 20:49:11 -0500, te...@ix.netcom.com (Tengu) wrote:
>In article <3480746c...@news-stand.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>jk...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu says...
>> >Whenever I *have* posted a list of logical flaws in her reasoning, or
>> >have argued her points in a consistent manner, I've gotten no response
>> >(more than one discussion).
>>
>> While I would dearly love to respond to *every single point*, that
>> would mean that I would spend every waking moment here, and believe it
>> or not, I have another life too -- animals to care for, a dissertation
>> to pursue, other TF activities that bring me a lot of enjoyment and
>> aren't riddled with conflict.
>
> Rhetoric at best.
*Now* I think I get it. For some inexplicable reason you seem to be
miffed because I may not have gotten around to responding to *your*
points! Miffed enough to all but call me a liar when I explain that I
*don't* have time to respond to every single person who wants to take
issue with my views, even if I'd like to. I don't even have time to
*read* every single post -- something's got to be left out, each time.
Well, don't go feeling left out over a little thing like that, Tengu
-- why would you *care* whether someone whom you think so little of,
and whose opinions you have so little interest in, sees and responds
to your posts? Other people see them, right? Other people might see
your points? Why do you care whether *I* do? I've got to wonder why
I should take my limited time to respond to *you* above anybody else,
when even some of my closest friends only hear from me by e-mail every
couple of weeks or so? The available time simply is not always there.
If you're at all familiar with the newsgroup reading/posting pattern
that I've been forced to adopt in the last few months, you'd know that
it comes down to reading/posting for a few days, and then not being
able to follow along again until a few weeks later. A lot scrolls off
during that time. And even during my "catch-up days," there simply
isn't time to address everything. Many times I've seen things posted
on this sort of thread that have made me think "Hey, that's not right,
I want to set that straight," and just never had the chance to get
back around to it. Other times I've made the same point over and over
again in the past, and may not feel like making it *again* at that
particular moment. If you take it as a personal slight that I may not
have answered some brilliant point of yours, in particular, then
that's your own problem, not any underhanded intention on my part.
I've got better things to do than worry about which specific
individuals see and answer my posts ... I'd sincerely hope that you
do, as well.
--Raksha
(who would hardly classify the term "scumbastard" as a
"swear word", since I'm sure any hypothetical nine-year-old
that hasn't been drastically overprotected, has heard
far worse and lived to tell the tale.....)
David Willis
Raksha wrote:
>
>> What I *will* apologize for, is that it looked to some people
>that I was calling BW fans indiscriminate idiots. Which I was *not*,
>I'll point out once again -- if you like the show as it is, then I
>certainly don't have a problem with that -- but if you feel as I do
>that some vital element is missing, then don't just feel you have to
>accept it without comment. Just like I keep trying to point out that
>it's not necessary to accept a label on a toy box as your
>interpretation of that character or his faction -- *not* saying that
>those who go along with the label are stupid for doing so, but saying
>that it wouldn't hurt to try to look at it from the other side too,
>that there *is* another way to interpret that same picture. If only
>to be able to understand the reasoning of someone who sees things
>differently, rather than taking the disagreement as a personal
>affront. *That* was the gist of my messages. If it came across
>otherwise, then *this* is what I apologize for -- for not having made
>my meaning sufficiently clear.<
>
>
>MicroZone
And thank you here too. 'Tis what I was waiting for. :)
--David
Jerkmeister
> > First off I wasn't the one that started this nonsense so don't pawn this off on
> > me. I will not in good conscience let such a statement go unchallanged. If
> > anyone here wants to continue to defend this monster (and he IS a monster no
> > matter what anyone wants to claim) they are welcome to it. I spoke my peace on
> > the subject.
> >
> > MicroZone
> on you. As for Hitler being a monster, please don't insult werewolves
> and vampires like that. Hitler was Evil not a creature of the night
At the personal risk of being flamed to Hell, Microzone comes off as
90% of the world's population would: ignorance.
Hitler was NOT evil, what he DID was evil. No human being is
inherently evil. No human being is inherently good, either (don't you
start on this!). Calling Hitler evil or a monster is just plain
ignorance and overgeneralization, and especially looking at the issue at
only one of the many ways it can be viewed. Bottom line is, Hitler is a
human, just like all of us (unless you are a Cybertronian
vacationer...), and people do what people do. "To err is human."
Tulece
Am I the only one who thinks this conversation is WAAAAAAY beyond the
admiring of transformers?
It's a TV SHOW PEOPLE!!! Good guys vs bad guys, with shoot'em ups and
ROBOTS!!
Let's not go bananas with the over-analyzing, and just enjoy it for what
it is--pure, mindless fun and entertainment...with a toy line. ;)
Lucas
Tengu
In article <3481fbbb...@news-stand.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
jk...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu says in the first ATT post in a
*while* that's made me laugh...
> >jk...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu says...
> miffed because I may not have gotten around to responding to *your*
> points!
You'd really like to believe that, wouldn't you? No offense
Raksha, but nothing you could do could ever get me "miffed." I wouldn't
know you from a bucket of paint if you passed me on the street. I could
care less whether you respond to *my* posts. However, I've noticed that
you've "ignored" many logical arguments in the past, and I've heard
similar complaints from some of the writers of those arguments. *That*
was the point I was so fruitlessly trying to raise, in using my own
experiences as an *example*. Unfortunately, it didn't get through-
though at this point I'm hardly surprised.
> Miffed enough to all but call me a liar when I explain that I
> *don't* have time to respond to every single person who wants to take
> issue with my views, even if I'd like to.
Much as you like to misrepresent the writings of others, I didn't
call you a liar, or imply this; I referred to your statement as
"Rhetoric."
> I don't even have time to
> *read* every single post -- something's got to be left out, each time.
> Well, don't go feeling left out over a little thing like that, Tengu
> -- why would you *care* whether someone whom you think so little of,
> and whose opinions you have so little interest in, sees and responds
> to your posts?
Is this supposed to hurt my feelings? If it is, I'd like you to
know that I find it very amusing- doubly so since you obviously missed
the entire message of my post. Again, that doesn't surprise me. I used
my experiences with your "arguments" as an example, nothing more.
> Other people see them, right? Other people might see
> your points? Why do you care whether *I* do?
At this point, I sincerely do not. But there once was a time when
I appreciated your opinion and knowledge greatly.
> I've got to wonder why
> I should take my limited time to respond to *you* above anybody else,
> when even some of my closest friends only hear from me by e-mail every
> couple of weeks or so?
Did I state that? For the last time, hamaar, I used your lack of
attention to *my* arguments as an example. You've ignored the arguments
of other ATTrs as well, others who have presented arguments more logical
and eloquent than mine. My message simply stated that you seem to
display a penchant for "missing" the arguments which philosophically
erode yours.
> If you take it as a personal slight that I may not
> have answered some brilliant point of yours, in particular, then
> that's your own problem, not any underhanded intention on my part.
Read the above. Simply because you've re-stated a half baked
misconception this many times doesn't mean I should have to.
> I've got better things to do than worry about which specific
> individuals see and answer my posts ... I'd sincerely hope that you
> do, as well.
I do have better things to do, which is why I'm going to end this
useless and unfortunate argument for both of us right now. A shame,
really.
Plonk.
Tengu:D
Tulece
OK boys...take it outside.
Scopedog
Raksha wrote:
>
> Alright ... *once* more this time around. (Excuse me a second
> while I go straighten my horns and polish my pitchfork.... ;) ) One
> final bit of clarification that I felt was necessary.
>
> I'm going to let the rest of the post go without comment because I'm
> tired of dredging up the same old thing again and again, but:
>
> >jk...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu says...
> >> >have argued her points in a consistent manner, I've gotten no response
> >> >(more than one discussion).
> >>
> >> would mean that I would spend every waking moment here, and believe it
> >> or not, I have another life too -- animals to care for, a dissertation
> >> to pursue, other TF activities that bring me a lot of enjoyment and
> >> aren't riddled with conflict.
> >
> > Rhetoric at best.
>
> miffed because I may not have gotten around to responding to *your*
> *don't* have time to respond to every single person who wants to take
> *read* every single post -- something's got to be left out, each time.
problem here is that you shouldn't involve yourself in complicated
debates if you know you're not going to be able to pursue them. That's
utterly ridiculous. I'd like to think you're not so foolish as to
believe there aren't people who will defend whatever feelings they have
when you post the kinds of things you post. Do you really assume too
much? Do you really consider yourself innocent? You must know you're
controversial, and to leave bait and let others have a feeding frenzy
seems a bit trollish. Are you a troll? I'm inclined to believe that
you must have become one, because I do remember a time when you seemed
to respond to almost every reply you got. If you are troll, then you're
an unwitting one. It hasn't occured to you that your notoriety really
isn't enough to justify the conflicts you start and then abandon.
Disruptor
Joona I would like to ask a question. What in the world does Hitler have
to do with Transformers? Could you and the others please take this to
E-mail or the proper newsgroup?
To ATT in general, I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk at the moment but
I'm getting a little tired of this thread. It has nothing to do with
Transformers any more and that is the reason I'm trying to stop it. I
came to this group to talk about Transsformers not WWII characters.
Disruptor
MicroZone wrote:
>
> >Good points Microzone and now that this has wandered completely off
> topic of this newsgroup I call this thread officially dead. If you want
> to continue the debates could you please take it to E-mail or a
> newsgroup that handles theese kinds of debates.<
>
Accualt
>No human being is inherently evil.
Uhm what about Paula Jones? I mean jezz who would want that mouth comming near
their commander and chief?
>No human being is inherently good, either (don't you
>start on this!
We must never have meet my name is Accualt, otherwise known as the next
messiah.
> (unless you are a Cybertronian vacationer...)
Don't tell. Man you will have it all of this planet if you don't shhhhs.
>"To err is human."
True, I mean we all saw the verdict at the O.J trial
Jetfire333
If I might interject for a moment, isn't this the wrong newsgroup for this
discussion? I'm sorry, but if you all want to debate the Nazis and Hitler, why
don't you go to a different group to do so.
As for Raksha, she has the right to defend the 'Cons and I still don't
understand why you all are so bothered about that. You all need to find
something better to do.
At any rate, looks like Raksha's the latest person to walk into the crosshairs
of ATT's rage and anger. Well, I hope she survives and keeps posting.
Otherwise, add another one to the body count. Well, none of you probably know
what I'm talking about, so I'll just shut up.
Illmatar
No man is inherantly evil. Right. We aren't borne that way. Hilter CHOSE to
do what he did. He thought about it. He worked it out carefully. He was a
big boy. He knew better.
He DELIBERATELY did harm to others of his own free will. That is evil. He is
responsible for his actions.
And to say it is no big deal because he had intelligence, artistic skill, and a
powerful oratory style is ridiculous. His inherant talents are no excuse.
I'm not a bad artist myself and if I ever try anything that insane I hope
someone puts me down fast. I'd deserve it.
Illmatar
alt.toys.transformers
Laserbeak
>
>Illmatar <illm...@aol.com> scribbled the following:
>: Saying "Well, he had some good points," is exactly what let him get away
>with
>: what he did. All those that followed him share his guilt, and they were
>just
>: regular, ordinary people too. And they, in their willingness to say "He's
>good
>: for Germany", "He's fixing our economy", "I have a job now thanks to him"
>: committed the largest single act of genocide in history.
This is what I love. I love the people who say that Germans did this, and
Germans did that. That Germans were sheep to follow Hitler and commit these
crimes against humanity.
Don't you get it?
We're the exact same.
Don't you remember Korea? Vietnam? The Cold War? These names ring a bell?
Jeez, we get on the WWII Germans for being sheep and succombing to Hitler's
whims, then Harry S. Truman stands in front of a crowd and says "Communism is
evil! We must wipe Communism off the face of the Earth!" and all of America
raises their arms and yells "Hoorah! Down with Communism!"
How many people did we kill just because big daddy government said so? How
many of our men marched headlong into their deaths because of our governments
resentment towards Communism?
Communism wasn't the problem. Government was the problem. Whether it was the
government of the USSR, or whether it was the goverment of another country.
Communism doesn't automatically mean that you're an enemy of democracy and
that the only solution is war.
Now then, the next time you talk bad about Nazi Germany for all the killings
that they preformed, don't forget that the ole U.S. of A. has been out there
killing too. Perhaps not on such a grand scale, but killing nonetheless.
The USA began to think in the right direction during Vietnam. They began to
say, "Hey, just what are we fighting for anyway?"
Korea? Vietnam?
Please.
So why did we attack Communism so harshly in these not too distant decades
past?
Because we're all sheep. We're all sheep looking for a shepard.
Just like the Germans were.
And all of you hypocrites out there should remember that.
My two cents,
Laser
===========
"As the Earthlings say, 'fat chance, fat head!'"
Optimus Prime, The Ultimate Doom Part One
"Like Shangra-La beneath the summer moon, I will return again."
Kashmir
===========
TransMetal MegaBee
MicroZone <micr...@aol.com> wrote:
> >I'm just curious - what don't you like about the Headmasters concept?<
> What, besides those little squishies controlling a Transformer? Ugh.
> (See Raksha we do agree on a few things. ;-) )
> Not that the notion of those little robots controlling them from the HEAD
> MASTERS cartoon was much better, but just not as bad. More like the sniffles
> vs. the flu. I'd rather not have either one, but if I only have those two
> choices....
The Headmasters cartoon was _completely_ different. The little robots
didn't control big robots. The big robots, or transtectors, weren't
sentient at all. They were little robots from Microsei who wanted to fight
in the Cybertronian Wars and built themselves large transforming bodies.
No humans anywhere in the equation, and no sentients being controlled.
----
H. Jameel al Khafiz, Physicist-At-Large
"Fool! Pain is my friend! Allow me to introduce _you_ to it!"
"You're no for match me! Burn, traitor, burn!" --mighty Inferno
The Happy Fun Page --> http://www.dhp.com/~spectre
Anthony "Tonyfitz" Brucale
Tengu <te...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<MPG.eebe8561...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> In article <3481fbbb...@news-stand.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
> jk...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu says in the first ATT post in a
{snip}
> You'd really like to believe that, wouldn't you? No offense
> Raksha, but nothing you could do could ever get me "miffed." I wouldn't
> know you from a bucket of paint if you passed me on the street. I could
> care less whether you respond to *my* posts. However, I've noticed that
> you've "ignored" many logical arguments in the past, and I've heard
> similar complaints from some of the writers of those arguments. *That*
> was the point I was so fruitlessly trying to raise, in using my own
> experiences as an *example*. Unfortunately, it didn't get through-
> though at this point I'm hardly surprised.
>
Well said Tengu. I've only seen one response to my very logical arguement,
and that was a simple line or two in support of it by someone else...
--
***************************************************************************
Anthony "Tonyfitz" Brucale
***************************************************************************
"You can whisper if you want to, you can call me what you will.
You can cower in the corner, or you can say it to my grill."
-Life Of Agony,
"Whispers"
***************************************************************************
MicroZone
>The Headmasters cartoon was _completely_ different. The little robots
didn't control big robots. The big robots, or transtectors, weren't
sentient at all. They were little robots from Microsei who wanted to fight
in the Cybertronian Wars and built themselves large transforming bodies.
No humans anywhere in the equation, and no sentients being controlled.<
Other than the little robots that built themselves the big Transformer bodies
to fight with. Beyond that basic premise I can't comment much on HMs tho. It
just didn't hold my interest enough to get past episode #13.
MicroZone
Raksha
Alright, *really* just one more before the next hiatus, this
time...... ;)
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 21:55:46 -0800, Scopedog <redsh...@juno.com>
wrote:
>I don't know if you'll ever read this, but it seems to me that the
>problem here is that you shouldn't involve yourself in complicated
>debates if you know you're not going to be able to pursue them.
Okay, so if I post a Con-Quest essay or some other controversial
statement, I'm obligated to respond to every single reply? Sorry, I
don't see that. When they're riddled with flames, they often don't
*deserve* a reply; some points I've addressed a thousand times
already; some I just simply never see before they scroll off. And
some I respond to, but it's pretty much hit-or-miss as to *which* ones
those are, regardless of how much certain individuals wish to believe
otherwise. All I can do is tell you how it is. If you choose not to
believe it, that's fine, but that doesn't change the facts.
> I'd like to think you're not so foolish as to
>believe there aren't people who will defend whatever feelings they have
>when you post the kinds of things you post.
And who's denying them that? If I don't get around to responding to
*their* response, have I in any way prevented them from defending
their feelings or expressing their view?
> You must know you're
>controversial, and to leave bait and let others have a feeding frenzy
>seems a bit trollish. Are you a troll? I'm inclined to believe that
>you must have become one, because I do remember a time when you seemed
>to respond to almost every reply you got.
I remember such a time too -- that was when the newsgroup averaged
about 50 posts a day rather than 200+, and I didn't have certain other
obligations that I have now. I hardly think I'm no longer allowed to
post my thoughts simply because I may not be able to see or reply to
everyone's response. Again, who's stopping anyone from making *their*
points in return? Not convinced, sorry.......
--Raksha
Darzonique
In article <19971130181...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, illm...@aol.com
(Illmatar) writes:
>The scariest part of Hilter and the evil he did is that he WAS a man.
It truly is a scary thing when one man can cause so much death and misery. It
just goes to show you the dark depths of humanity.
"If power corrupts, then absolute power corrupts absolutely."
OBTransformers: Who's Liege Maximo?
-D. Park
"The hardest thing to accomplish in life is to make friend of enemies. Doing
this is only impossible if you had made it so."
http://members.aol.com/Darzonique/index.html
Joona I Palaste
Jerkmeister <stu...@eths.edu> scribbled the following:
: > > First off I wasn't the one that started this nonsense so don't pawn this off on
: > > me. I will not in good conscience let such a statement go unchallanged. If
: > > anyone here wants to continue to defend this monster (and he IS a monster no
: > > matter what anyone wants to claim) they are welcome to it. I spoke my peace on
: > > the subject.
: > >
: > > MicroZone
: > I am sorry MicroZone if it looks like I'm tying to pawn this thread off
: > on you. As for Hitler being a monster, please don't insult werewolves
: > and vampires like that. Hitler was Evil not a creature of the night
: At the personal risk of being flamed to Hell, Microzone comes off as
: 90% of the world's population would: ignorance.
: inherently evil. No human being is inherently good, either (don't you
: start on this!). Calling Hitler evil or a monster is just plain
: ignorance and overgeneralization, and especially looking at the issue at
: only one of the many ways it can be viewed. Bottom line is, Hitler is a
: vacationer...), and people do what people do. "To err is human."
Now I know there are at least 2 people on ATT who understand my point
about Hitler. Me and Jerkmeister.
Joona I Palaste
Disruptor <math...@gte.net> scribbled the following:
: Joona I would like to ask a question. What in the world does Hitler have
: to do with Transformers? Could you and the others please take this to
: E-mail or the proper newsgroup?
: To ATT in general, I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk at the moment but
: I'm getting a little tired of this thread. It has nothing to do with
: Transformers any more and that is the reason I'm trying to stop it. I
: came to this group to talk about Transsformers not WWII characters.
Since Jerkmeister seems to already have understood my point, and
Illmatar seems to gradually begin to do so, I think I'll shut up after
a while. It's what _I_ want to do, too.
Joona I Palaste
Excuse me? I wasn't trying to say Hitler's artistic skills would justify
his actions against the Jews. I was saying they have nothing to do with
them. Do you understand my point now, or shall I type it in words of one
syllable?
Jetfire333
>Now I know there are at least 2 people on ATT who understand my point
>about Hitler. Me and Jerkmeister.
>
>
I understand your point. Hitler was evil, but to the Germans he was good,
because he brought their country back after it was devastated from World War
One. It doesn't justify things, but it shows that evil all depends on your
perspective. The Iraqis all think Saddam is a great guy too, but in America we
think he's like Satan or something. (No offense to any Iraqis on the group).
Anyone Marge Schott (the controversial owner of the Cincinnati Reds) said that
Hitler was good for the Germans, and was criticized a lot for it. She was
right, but some people are ignorant of history and all that and don't
understand.
Anyway, if you don't understand, I could give a complete historical lecture on
Hitler and Germany after WWI.
IRONHIDE02
>I can't believe anyone would defend this evil son of a bitch. When did this
>become the KKK newsgroup? Hitler was responsible for the murder of millions
>of
>men, women and children. Do not dismiss this off by saying he had good points
>too. Why do people today refuse to accept the fact that there just some
>really
>f***ing evil people in this world, by trying to sugar-coat what they did. "Oh
>he just did it for Aryan people." Bull$#!t. He did it because he was a
>monster.
>Period.
>
>Despite the current popular acceptance of political correctness, and no
>matter
>how often the political/social elite say we can not judge others by own own
>morals there are still such things in this world as right and wrong. The
>longer
>this world goes without enough common sense to accept the fact the bigger a
>hole we're digging for ourselves and our world.
>
>
>MicroZone
>
>
Well put MZ. Was thinkin the same thing myself.
IRONHIDE02
>
>You still don't get it, do you? Those comments you mentioned relate to
>the Nazis. Hitler had some good points NOT relating to Nazis. You seem
>to be quite keen to expand his Nazi influence over to all matters
>concerning him. Hey, let's try your theory: Hitler made some fairly
>good artistic paintings prior to World War I in Austria. I rather liked
>these paintings. Hitler later proceeded to make horrific, inexcusable
>acts against the Jews. Now according to your logic, my liking Hitler's
>paintings makes me an anti-Semitist who wants to kill all Jews. Case
>closed, or rather not. Hitler was more than just a Nazi leader. Not much
>more, but still more. He had human qualities too
Why do we even have to discuss this utter crap? Hitler was Hitler. He was
responsible for the deaths of many people. You wanna find good points in his
life? Fine you go right ahead, just don't say them here please. My great
grandmother and grandfather were killed during ww2 in a concentration camp so I
really don't want to here about what you think Hitler's good qualities are.
Personally due to the fact that some of my family memers were killed due to
Hitlers actions it makes me really disgusted you'd find anything good about
him. I don't think there was anything good about the man. He may have been
human, but who isn't. But he was evil. I suggest you people remember that.
Carcharodon
Jetfire333 wrote:
> >Now I know there are at least 2 people on ATT who understand my point
> >about Hitler. Me and Jerkmeister.
> >
> >
>
> I understand your point. Hitler was evil, but to the Germans he was good,
> because he brought their country back after it was devastated from World War
> One. It doesn't justify things, but it shows that evil all depends on your
> perspective. The Iraqis all think Saddam is a great guy too, but in America we
> think he's like Satan or something. (No offense to any Iraqis on the group).
> Anyone Marge Schott (the controversial owner of the Cincinnati Reds) said that
> Hitler was good for the Germans, and was criticized a lot for it. She was
> right, but some people are ignorant of history and all that and don't
> understand.
I hold up in my hands a piece of paper. That paper is colored red. A thousand
different people, from as many nationalities, religions, ethnicities, and creeds,
may describe it differently in a thousand unrelated languages......yet the card is
still red. Regardless of the cultural-relativistic semantic doggerel that
historical revisionists employ to confuse the truth, evil--in the form of knowingly
and sadistically brutalizing and killing millions of people--does exist in an
absolute form, and was perfectly exemplified by Hitler.
Carcharodon
Joona I Palaste wrote:
> Jerkmeister <stu...@eths.edu> scribbled the following:
> : > > First off I wasn't the one that started this nonsense so don't pawn this off on
> : > > me. I will not in good conscience let such a statement go unchallanged. If
> : > > anyone here wants to continue to defend this monster (and he IS a monster no
> : > > matter what anyone wants to claim) they are welcome to it. I spoke my peace on
> : > > the subject.
> : > >
> : > > MicroZone
> : > I am sorry MicroZone if it looks like I'm tying to pawn this thread off
> : > on you. As for Hitler being a monster, please don't insult werewolves
> : > and vampires like that. Hitler was Evil not a creature of the night
> :
> : At the personal risk of being flamed to Hell, Microzone comes off as
> : 90% of the world's population would: ignorance.
> : Hitler was NOT evil, what he DID was evil. No human being is
> : inherently evil. No human being is inherently good, either (don't you
> : start on this!). Calling Hitler evil or a monster is just plain
> : ignorance and overgeneralization, and especially looking at the issue at
> : only one of the many ways it can be viewed. Bottom line is, Hitler is a
> : human, just like all of us (unless you are a Cybertronian
> : vacationer...), and people do what people do. "To err is human."
"To err" suggests that Hitler made a mistake. Wrong. He knew exactly what he was doing,
and had planned it for decades. That he was not born evil, just like no human is born
evil, only further proves that he *became* and *was* an evil man and performed evil acts,
thus making his legacy even more loathsome: Had he been born evil, one might
conceivably, in a few billion years or so, try to begin to think about someday forgiving
him, since after all he had no choice in the matter. I do not really know what Joona's
point is, nor do I care. A rule of thumb: Every time you ever hear people saying
something *REMOTELY* non-bad about Hitler, get suspicious. "He was kind to animals", "He
was good for the economy", blah blah puke puke. Most are urban myths created by armchair
historians, and all pale in comparison to the realities of his cruelty. It doesn't make
you an anti-Semite or fascist or collaborator, but it can really end a conversation. His
evil deeds (and there IS absolute evil in the world, of which as a supremely evil man he
was a good illustration of it) outweigh any good which came of his rule by several
millionfold.
Lewis M. Brooks, III
> I finally figured out a way to get a bit of enjoyment out of Raksha's
> same ole boring posts: I read the responses of others and then wait to
> see how many times little Ms. Scream n' Bitch has to post to back up her
> delusions. Keep up the good work everyone =P
That was uncalled for. Raksha has as much of a right to her opinion as anyone
else here. I have very rarely agreed with anything Raksha has said, but she
still has a right to her opinion.
Lewis
HENRY V SPAH
On 30 Nov 1997, Joona I Palaste wrote:
> Illmatar <illm...@aol.com> scribbled the following:
> : Saying "Well, he had some good points," is exactly what let him get away with
> : what he did. All those that followed him share his guilt, and they were just
> : regular, ordinary people too. And they, in their willingness to say "He's good
> : for Germany", "He's fixing our economy", "I have a job now thanks to him"
> : committed the largest single act of genocide in history.
>
...the single largest act of genocide in history? BUZZZ!!!! Sorry, but
WRONG. The largest recorded act of active genocide in human history was
not Hitler (10 million) or Stalin (15-20 million) but Genghis Kahn and
his Mongol Horde, who not only slaughterd 35 MILLION Chinese peasants, but
were aslo instrumental in spreading (intentionally!) the Black Death to
Europe and the Near East where it killed anywher from 30 to 75 million
more people (depending on who's estimates you buy)...I mention this,
because it's really starting to annoy me that nobody seems to be able to
come up with a alternative example of ultimate human evil than Hitler.
Come on guys! In the entire bloody, brutal span of human history, there
are a whole league of sociopaths to put on the same pedestal of depravity
-- and some of them ,believe it or not, where alot WORSE. (Even though, at
some point, "worse" becomes sort of arbitrary, I guess)
...Oh, yeah, and I ought to mention I think this whole damn thread has
gotten wildly out of control (as it does whenever it comes up) ...I'm sure
there's an newsgroup out there devoted to these sorts of topics, why don't
all of you with a philosphical axe to grind go and FIND IT. ...Or at least
read up on your history a little so you can come up with fresh examples.
Dova
Caleb Yuen
WARNING! LOTS OF QUOTED TEXT!
IRONHIDE02 wrote:
>
> >Let me start off by saying, Raksha does NOT need people to come to her
> >defense, she is quite capable of defending herself. However, I feel a
> >certain responsibility to myself to post this. Even if I did not consider
> >Raksha a personal friend, I could not stand by and watch this undeserved and
> >baffling slander of any ATTer.
> >
> >For those new TransFans who may not know, Raksha is a vehement supporter of
> >the Decepticons. She thinks of them as the "good guys" and the Autobots as
> >the "bad guys". This may sound very odd at first to all the Autobot
> >supporters. You may think "Well, how could anyone think that?" I won't
> >recount Raksha's whole line of reasoning here, partly due to space, and
> >partly because I would probably mess it up and have to face the talons. :)
> >For those who are curious, you can check her web site at
> >http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1139/index.html
> >
> >Some people may not agree with Raksha on most issues. But THAT DOES NOT give
> >anyone the right to post these kinds of personal attacks. If you disagree
> >fine, post and tell us why. But please don't do so in a hostile and
> >threatning way. I myself have had disagreements with her in the past, but
> >things always remained civil and respectful. Personal attacks are almost
> >always inappropriate for any reason, and to attack someone for merely
> >stating an opinion is shameful IMHO. (And no, I am not talking merely about
> >the most personal and hostile post either, there were a lot more than that.)
> >
> >And really, the whole thread has another, more subtle problem. I freely
> >admit I have not read the whole thing, so I very much hope I have only seen
> >the bad posts. But, those I have seen actually had very little to say. They
> >seemed to be long drawn out, and needlessly hostile versions of "You're
> >wrong." I don't expect everyone to be completely familiar with Raksha's
> >point of view, and therefore be able to debate the point.
> >
> >HOWEVER, the fact is, her essay *was not about* who the good guys are. Her
> >post was about her disenchantment with the current cartoon and toy lines.
> >And even the people who actually responded to that particular point went
> >overboard, IMHO. I saw a lot of ramblings, but very little actual content of
> >"I disagree with you, and here is a list of flaws in your thinking or
> >alternate viewpoints about this or that point." Instead we saw, again, very
> >long versions of "you're wrong". And further, people were using Raksha's
> >particular views (calling the Predacons "the Decepticons" for example) as
> >some sort of "proof" that she is stupid or wrong or *something*.
> >
> >Some of these posts seemed to me to be very pointless. People, for some
> >reason, assume that their particualr take on the Transformers is the only
> >correct one, and everyone else must be wrong. When Raksha posts something in
> >support of her viewpoint, these people get all riled up and start either
> >flaming away, or post the rambling "You're wrong" messages. I submit to you
> >that Raksha's views are JUST AS VALID as anyone else's. Guess what folks,
> >this aint' religion or particle physics, this is a fictional world with a
> >thousand different interpretations of EVERYTHING. Ever see the "Brawn is
> >Dead" threads?
> >
> >On a more personal note, I would just like to say that I too am a Decepticon
> >fan and supporter, although not quite SO much as Raksha. I for one feel I
> >have a pretty good grasp of why Raksha thinks the way she does, and let me
> >tell you : there are no logical flaws, no blind spots, that I can see. You
> >may DISAGREE with the emphasis she puts on one thing versus another (and I
> >do on several points). But merely disagreeing with someone does NOT make
> >them wrong, or stupid, or anything else. I would ask that ALL Decepticon
> >fans be treated with the same courtesy as the Autobot fans.
> >
> >
>
> AmenYa wasted all that space just to say amen? And ya didn't even punctuate! Now that's what
I call a wasted post. This is a wasted post too. :)
Caleb
"Well, I guess you could say we WON. The enemy is so much scrap..."-SideSwipe G2 #1
lta...@netpath.net
Raksha wrote:
> I hardly think I'm no longer allowed to
> post my thoughts simply because I may not be able to see or reply to
> everyone's response.
Always keep in mind that not everyone gets the same news headers. Until I
started using Deja News regularly, I didn't even get headers on a daily
basis, much less everything that was posted for the day (thanks for the
crappy service Netpath).
Aaaaah hell...now I'm defending Raksha. What's the world coming too? =P
Leemur
--
Signature? You mean I've got to sign this thing?
Where's my light pen? Hey, my computer didn't come
with a light pen!
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
BlueNight
LTaylor wrote:
> > I finally figured out a way to get a bit of enjoyment out of Raksha's
> > same ole boring posts: I read the responses of others and then wait to
> > see how many times little Ms. Scream n' Bitch has to post to back up her
> > delusions. Keep up the good work everyone =P
Lewis replied,
> That was uncalled for. Raksha has as much of a right to her opinion as anyone
> else here. I have very rarely agreed with anything Raksha has said, but she
> still has a right to her opinion.
I agree with Lewis, LT. Rashka is very outspoken, but that's no reason
to call her names. If you liked a set of characters that was slammed
every time everyone posted, you would be yelling too.
--
BlueNight
Autogenerated Furcode
FDLf,p,w4mA-C-DHM+P+R+T++++WZ-Sm+
RLCTa-C++++nd++e+h+i+p-sm-
http://www.nmt.edu/~lallen
Transformers Code 1.1
G++FR+FW-M-(0)0D-ADA N+WB+OQBC#MU+OM--
"flaming grapple monkey" -- overheard
on rec.games.computer.quake.*
Commercial emailers will be billed $500
Picard42
Carcharodon wrote:
> I hold up in my hands a piece of paper. That paper is colored red. A thousand
> different people, from as many nationalities, religions, ethnicities, and creeds,
> may describe it differently in a thousand unrelated languages......yet the card is
> still red. Regardless of the cultural-relativistic semantic doggerel that
> historical revisionists employ to confuse the truth, evil--in the form of knowingly
> and sadistically brutalizing and killing millions of people--does exist in an
> absolute form, and was perfectly exemplified by Hitler.
I agree. We need to stop coddling our madmen. Anyhow, in an attempt
(most likely in vain) to steer this back on topic, if you had to pick
any one TF to compare to Hitler (and don't say Wheelie!), who would it
be?
-Picard42 -
NeoTrent
>
>Now I know there are at least 2 people on ATT who understand my point
>
Joona, your point is pretty valid on one level, in that evil, like good,
sanity, competence, trustworthiness and numerous other human attributes, is
objective.
The other thing you've proven, is that no matter how vile, hateful, or utterly
demonic a person or character's behavior, there will be those ready to defend
them. It doesn't make the person being defended or the defender innately
saintly or satanic, it just means they have someone backing them or one aspect
of their existance. Even the most murderous of people have been considered
heroes by some. This will never change so long as human diversity and
difference of opinion exists.
Honestly, some people feed on arguement. The best remedy to this type of
bait-and-bitch argumentation, on either side, is to just ignore the other
person. Without an audience to listen to them whail, or an oppressor to martyr
them, your squeaky wheels soon rust into silence. How many manifestos that
fall upon deaf ears earn sequels?
-Trent
----
Always hunting mecha toys, Gundam, Macross,
Mospeda, Transformers and knockoffs of the like.
-
Dan McCollum
BROO...@rhea.bentley.edu (Lewis M. Brooks, III) wrote:
>> I finally figured out a way to get a bit of enjoyment out of Raksha's
>> same ole boring posts: I read the responses of others and then wait to
>> see how many times little Ms. Scream n' Bitch has to post to back up her
>> delusions. Keep up the good work everyone =P
>
>else here. I have very rarely agreed with anything Raksha has said, but she
>still has a right to her opinion.
>
>
Well Lewis the unthinkable has happened. After that "Megatron is hitler"
debate which we were both part of I never though i'd agree with you, but
strangly enough the universe suprised me :P Anyway I have to agree with
you 100 percent on this one. We may not all agree with Raksha(though I
find myself agreeing most of the time), but she has jsut as much right to
post here as anyone does. She has started quite a few historic
discussions on this newsgroup, that you all have to agree apon. I would
laos liek to personly say I think it's time ATT got bakc that 'ol
politeness it had when I fist started posting here 2 years ago.
Dan "I do post every now and then" McCollum
Hydra D304
>
>We must never have meet my name is Accualt, otherwise known as the next
>messiah.
>
>
Hmm, oyu know, call me a blasphemer, but I had imagined that the next Messiah
would spell and punctuate a lot better :P
-Hydra
Hydra D304
>
>Am I the only one who thinks this conversation is WAAAAAAY beyond the
>admiring of transformers?
>It's a TV SHOW PEOPLE!!! Good guys vs bad guys, with shoot'em ups and
>ROBOTS!!
>
>Let's not go bananas with the over-analyzing, and just enjoy it for what
>it is--pure, mindless fun and entertainment...with a toy line. ;)
>
>Lucas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Perhaps you are, every time a good philosphical discussion drags on, someone
has top run in and say something blatantly obvious, like "It's just a toy
line!" NOTHING is just a toy line, even toy lines can represent great things to
people great enough to carry on long discussions such as this. It is only
"mindless fun" for the mindless.
-Hydra
Jetfire333
No one here admires Hitler or any of the things he did. However, some of us
with more historical knowledge can understand that even the worst leaders are
good to some people. Even ones that exploit and use people and encourage
genocide are supported by someone, how else could they get their power?
That doesn't make what they did right, but you people have to understand that
what Joona, myself, and others have said is nothing to condone what Hitler did.
However, we realize that like every person he did some good things. He
revitalized the German economy and saved the German people from starvation and
poverty. The way he did it, though, was wrong. But to the German people he
seemed like a hero, just like Megatron seems like a hero to most of the 'Cons.
See the connection? Probably not. I'll probably have someone do a great snip
job on this post to make it look like I'm some billy-club carryin, white hood
wearin KKK member. They'll probably just take out the first part of that last
sentence! :-)
Anyway, it's obvious that some people don't understand this discussion and are
responding in a knee-jerk reaction type way. It's too mature for some of the
people that have responded.
I hear people who always talk about how good the old days were on ATT and I
just wonder if back then if you could have a thread like this without it
turning into some kind of racist flame war.
The Gateway to the Alternate Dimensions Fanfic Site:
http://www.geocities.com/area51/rampart/1778 (no Hitler, just great TF
fanfics!)
Robert A. Jung
The problem is that "Hitler" and "Nazi" are such emotionally-loaded words
that some people will accept nothing less than total, unconditional, and
mindless condemnation of them. They mistake anything less as support for the
Reich (even if it isn't), and then get indignant at this false assumption of
support.
And that's all I have to say about that.
--R.J.
B-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and if other people are
amused by it, then it's fine. If they're not, then that's also fine."
Send mail to rj...@netcom.com --Frank Zappa
------- Visit Rob on the web! ------ http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/ -------
Joona I Palaste
OK, this thread has gotten out of hands. I'll declare it officially
dead. Let's see if I can killfile it.
Joona I Palaste
Robert A. Jung <rj...@netcom.com> scribbled the following:
: The problem is that "Hitler" and "Nazi" are such emotionally-loaded words
: that some people will accept nothing less than total, unconditional, and
: mindless condemnation of them. They mistake anything less as support for the
: Reich (even if it isn't), and then get indignant at this false assumption of
: support.
: And that's all I have to say about that.
Of course, Robert, you are right. You have understood the point of my
original message perfectly. I was not trying to support the Reich, not
even trying to support Hitler, just trying to find SOMETHING good to
say about him. That's all I have to say. Now if you'll excuse me, I've
got flames to ignore. =)
IRONHIDE02
No, you don't seem to understand. I'm saying, why do we even have to friggin
talk about Hitler on this damn newsgroup. I have had family members die in
concentration camps beacause of that man, so he isn't very high on my wanting
to talk about list or just seeing his name. So why can't we just can it
please?
Mop-Boy
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:11:44 GMT, Pha...@IHATESPAMCyberhighway.net
(Phalanx) wrote:
>All I wanna add is that Hitler was also one of the most brilliant and
>riling speakers in the history of mankind. Now I know a lot of people
>are going to take this the wrong way, but a lot of his speeches and
>his way of presenting them should be a part of any serious journalism
>course. Too many people want to dismiss him as an idiot or even make
>fun of him. Well, stupid is the last thing he ever was.
>(Pointing this out doesn't make me a KKK member, btw.)
Funny you should mention this.. Before all of the ghettos and
concentration camps, Hitler practiced his abilities of public
persuasion and photographed himself doing so, saying that using theses
gestures and such would give him the power he needed to get the
people's attanetion.
Mop-Boy
One man's angel is another man's alien.
__
_/. |
/_ |
_____________________________| |_____________________________
I ||\\//|| ||==|| ||==\\ \ / ||=>> ||==|| \\ // I
I || || || || ||==// \ == / ||=\\ || || \\// I
I || || ||==|| || \ / ||=// ||==|| || I
I__________________________\/__________________________I
Drunken Czar of "The Flying Banana Tree"
/||\
MMMM
Cobra Commander: "Any last words Snake Eyes??"
Snake Eyes: " "
Cobra Commander: "Your words move me."
lta...@netpath.net
> >That was uncalled for. Raksha has as much of a right to her opinion as anyone
> >else here. I have very rarely agreed with anything Raksha has said, but she
> >still has a right to her opinion.
> >
> >Lewis
> >
>
> Well Lewis the unthinkable has happened. After that "Megatron is hitler"
> debate which we were both part of I never though i'd agree with you, but
> strangly enough the universe suprised me :P Anyway I have to agree with
> you 100 percent on this one. We may not all agree with Raksha(though I
> find myself agreeing most of the time), but she has jsut as much right to
> post here as anyone does. She has started quite a few historic
> discussions on this newsgroup, that you all have to agree apon. I would
> laos liek to personly say I think it's time ATT got bakc that 'ol
> politeness it had when I fist started posting here 2 years ago.
>
> Dan "I do post every now and then" McCollum
Before this particular thread gets out of hand, let me just say that I
never implied that Raksha didn't have the right to post here. I simply
respond in kind to bitter sarcasm and negativity. Yeah, it's reactionary
I know, but that's just the way I am sometimes. Hell, I actually defended
Raksha in a post yesterday.
In defense of me =P
BluePard
IRONHIDE02 <ironh...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971201180...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> >I can't believe anyone would defend this evil son of a bitch. When did
this
> >become the KKK newsgroup? Hitler was responsible for the murder of
millions
> >of
> >monster.<snip>The
> >longer
> >this world goes without enough common sense to accept the fact the
bigger a
> >hole we're digging for ourselves and our world.
> >
> >
> >MicroZone
Yes, Hitler did a lot of bad things, it was wrong. I'm not defending
attempted genocide. But who's to say this didn't keep him up awake at
nights, I can't see that it wouldn't unless he was mentally unstable, he
probably was. What bothers me here is the last sentance, about digging a
hole for ourselves. The world is filled with a lot of bad, but people in
particular are never good or bad, unless perhaps there is something wrong
in their heads that takes away from their humanity. If you want to see more
good and less bad, the best thing to do is give people the benifit of the
doubt, that something happened to them or they see themselves as needing to
defend. No normal person sees themselves as evil. I might grab an extra
cookie when I'm not supposed to, but it never occurs to me that's evil, or
the same with any of the worst things I've done. I dunno, I just felt like
ranting, I'm on a religious slant or something today, anyhow, thanks for
reading.
--
!!! BluePard !!!
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Palms/2115
"All fantasy writers are crazy, and that includes me."
-My Casey char
_ _
| \\_____// | ________________________________
/ \ /
\ ^/ ^ / \ =====================/
/ /__ \ \\ | \===============/
\__\ | /___/ \ / /===========/
/ \^^/ \/ /========/
Doug Dlin
I decided to insert a minor nitpick when I saw that, on Nov. 30, 1997,
TransMetal MegaBee wrote:
>
> The Headmasters cartoon was _completely_ different. The little robots
> didn't control big robots. The big robots, or transtectors, weren't
> sentient at all. They were little robots from Microsei who wanted to
> fight in the Cybertronian Wars and built themselves large transforming
> bodies. No humans anywhere in the equation, and no sentients being
> controlled.
Correct--except they came from Mastersei/Planet Master. Microsei sounds
more like where the Microman characters came from. No, wait--that was
Microearth. Hang on, lemme get a scorecard...
Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com
TransMetal MegaBee
Ah, you're right, dude. The *masters are from Mastersei, and the
Micromasters are from Microsei. At least, I'm fairly certain that's where
Holi and Weaver's people are from in Victory.
----
H. Jameel al Khafiz, Physicist-At-Large
"Fool! Pain is my friend! Allow me to introduce _you_ to it!"
"You're no for match me! Burn, traitor, burn!" --mighty Inferno
The Happy Fun Page --> http://www.dhp.com/~spectre
Doug Dlin
I felt yet more need to nitpick when I saw that on Dec. 4, 1997,
TransMetal MegaBee wrote:
>
> Doug Dlin <ap...@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
>> I decided to insert a minor nitpick when I saw that, on Nov. 30,
>> 1997, TransMetal MegaBee wrote:
>>>
>>> The Headmasters cartoon was _completely_ different. The little
>>> robots didn't control big robots. The big robots, or transtectors,
>>> weren't sentient at all. They were little robots from Microsei who
>>> wanted to fight in the Cybertronian Wars and built themselves large
>>> transforming bodies.
>
>> sounds more like where the Microman characters came from. No, wait--
>> that was Microearth. Hang on, lemme get a scorecard...
>
> Ah, you're right, dude. The *masters are from Mastersei, and the
> Micromasters are from Microsei. At least, I'm fairly certain that's
> where Holi and Weaver's people are from in Victory.
Thanks for jogging my memory. That is indeed where Planet Micro comes
in. Only glitch this time is that Holi's girlfriend is Clipper, not
Weaver. That's another of those self-perpetuating misconceptions, I'm
afraid. Really not sure how it got started.
Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com
Laserbeak
> Anyhow, in an attempt
>(most likely in vain) to steer this back on topic, if you had to pick
>any one TF to compare to Hitler (and don't say Wheelie!), who would it
>be?
WHEELIE!!! HERR FUHRER WHEELIE!!!!
SEIG HEIL!
Laser
===========
"As the Earthlings say, 'fat chance, fat head!'"
Optimus Prime, The Ultimate Doom Part One
"Like Shangra-La beneath the summer moon, I will return again."
Kashmir
===========
TransMetal MegaBee
Really? I could've sworn that I'd heard her called Weaver in Masterforce.
Oh, well, you're the expert.
The Nixtr
QUOTING:
If you want to see more
good and less bad, the best thing to do is give people the benifit of
the
doubt, that something happened to them or they see themselves as needing
to
defend
RESPONSE: Oh, yeah. Hitler killed 12 million people, but we have to
give him the benefit of the doubt.
Sometimes I say, "it's a sick world."
--
*** ************** ****** * ****** ************** ***
Roger dodger!!! - The Nixtr - Transformer fan
Dittohead smiley ":> - Tie fighter ASCII <-0->
(Isn't that clever of me??) (-0-)
"I am a jelly doughnut." - John F. Kennedy
* Pregnant? Worried? 800-848-LOVE oR 800-662-2628
* Post-abortion Trauma? 800-851-8379 oR 800-800-8284
* Injured by abortion? 800-U-CAN-SUE
*** ************** ****** * ****** ************** ***
Doug Dlin
On Dec. 6, 1997, TransMetal MegaBee wrote:
>
>>> Ah, you're right, dude. The *masters are from Mastersei, and the
>>> Micromasters are from Microsei. At least, I'm fairly certain that's
>>> where Holi and Weaver's people are from in Victory.
>
>> Thanks for jogging my memory. That is indeed where Planet Micro
>> comes in. Only glitch this time is that Holi's girlfriend is
>> Clipper, not Weaver. That's another of those self-perpetuating
>> misconceptions, I'm afraid. Really not sure how it got started.
>
> Really? I could've sworn that I'd heard her called Weaver in
> Masterforce. Oh, well, you're the expert.
MASTERFORCE? When were there any Micromasters in MASTERFORCE? Maybe
there was indeed some character called "Weaver" in that series, though I
don't recall it. Wouldn't have been Holi's GF, though.
Doug Dlin
ap...@hotmail.com
A.Patyk
Picard42 wrote:
Anyhow, in an attempt
> (most likely in vain) to steer this back on topic, if you had to pick
> any one TF to compare to Hitler (and don't say Wheelie!), who would it
> be?
>
Could it be any more obvious? Megatron created the Decepticons to
gain power. At first, they started out as just his thugs and goons
(brownshirts...? Can't remember). He riled his people up with his
speeches denouncing the Autobots as weak and inferior, gaining more
support from those wanting some excuse for their condition/violent
tendencies/etc (Hitler's rallies). Fashioning his thugs and goons
into warriors and gaining more skilled soldiers, the Decepticon army
was born (nazi party). They attack and virtually wipe out the
Autobots (akin to a Nazi political victory), but Megatron's plans
don't stop there. He intends to turn Cybertron into a huge,
spacetravelling battlestation (Nazi war machine?) to conquer more
worlds (more living space?).
The similarities are really weird, when you think about it. Also, to
anyone who supports the Decep. outlook as "right," how can we forget
that their entire way of life is based on subjugating and/or
destroying alien races and all "inferior" beings who oppose them?
Sound familliar?
TransMetal MegaBee
GAH! I meant Victory. I'm having a bad time at this....
John Merritt
Also firstly I want remind everyone what the decepitcons did
Live action movies
[Battle of mission city 2007]
[Chicago City Dark of the Moon]
[Battle of Egypt Revenge of the Fallen]
[Hong Kong Age of Extinction]
Transformers Prime
Cyberform Earth into a mechanical world
TF Animated:
Take earth’s resources
TF War/Fall of Cybertron
Wage War through violence
Corrupt Primus ending the energon flow for the Transformers
Codigo Postal
This thread is a great reminder of the days when Transformers sparked great discussions beyond "have you seen the latest toy?"
As Robert Powers once wrote:
"I'm not complaining about all the stuff we're getting. I think it's fantastic; I think this -- right now -- is absolutely the best time ever to be a Transformer fan. I'll take this in a heartbeat over the days of the mid-1990s when fanfic was seemingly the only chance of us ever seeing Transformers in action again. And yet, I miss something about those days, too -- namely, the intensity of them. There were characters worth caring about, and dammit, we cared mighty hard." (http://builtstlouis.net/tf/manic/m-acquisition.html)
Zobovor
> This thread is a great reminder of the days when Transformers sparked great discussions beyond "have you seen the latest toy?"
With that said, it took ATT a long time to figure out the difference between arguing the issues and launching ad hominem attacks. The ability to say "I disagree with you, but that's fine" is not something people are born with. You really have to learn it.
Zob (got Legacy Minerva today, anybody seen her yet?)
Joseph Bardsley
I agree that the mid-90s were an intense era in the fandom's history that is almost impossible for someone who wasn't there - or at least of an age that can understand what life was like a generation ago - to really grasp.
We didn't have anything close to the level of product, or engagement from Hasbro, or pop culture cachet (heck, even familiarity) that we do now. When G1 ended, it was a major setback in terms of viability and engagement. G2 was, really, a smattering of (often great) toys, with a (great) comic, a retread of the classic cartoon (Kendrick, I'm thinking of you, and your TF: Weekday reviews), and conventions once a year.
Aside from that, there were MUSHes (which I, for one, dearly miss, and was very active in), fanzines (I still have back issues of Con-Quest, and Maelstrom), and ... that was about it, aside from ATT itself, which was very much the centre of online fandom at the time.
Fanfic really was all we had, and a lot of it really was really great. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say that the fanfic that was created and shared then was of objectively higher quality than that you'd find nowadays from writers who simply have no concept for how things were when those stories were literally all we had. I'm thinking, specifically, of writers like Dave van Domelen, Zobovor, Raksha, Rob Jung, Kendrick, Belinda Kelly, Lizard, D.A. James, and Robert Powers himself. They say that necessity is the mother of invention: when there's a dearth of "official" source material, these writers filled the gap and delivered in spades.
Zob once posited that, owing to the composition of the fandom at the time - back in the mid-90s, Internet access was much more likely to be restricted to university students from established schools - may have been part of why so much good writing and (often) civilized debate once thrived here.
All of this to say: it was a different era, and a different time. John Merritt, what prompted you to revisit this nearly 25-year old thread? Just curious.
JB
Dave Van Domelen
>On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 7:17:48 AM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:
>
>> This thread is a great reminder of the days when Transformers sparked
>great discussions beyond "have you seen the latest toy?"
>
>I must be some kind of idiot, because I remember posts by
>The_Great_Cornholio, but for some reason I never made the connection
>that he was Skyflight.
person with Raksha, but I never met Skyflight, who also lived in Columbus at
the time. I may have actually found out he was a Columbus resident when news
of his death came out.
>
>Zob (got Legacy Minerva today, anybody seen her yet?)
order it on Pulse last week (and mine arrived this week).
Raksha's been focusing more on her snakes and her Sloughis (she's on I
think the fourth generation of breeding them). She'll occasionally comment
on my facebook posts about Transformers, but is pretty much out of the
fandom.
Dave Van Domelen, notes that Raksha as long had designs on moving to
Texas for warmer weather, but so far is still in Ohio and not loving this
time of year.
Codigo Postal
Gustavo Wombat
making her happy. She hated everything new, had her own little space where
she thought the Decepticons were the good guys, still hated everything new…
Why would someone stick with that?
I hope her snakes are keeping her happy.
Joseph Bardsley
However, it was the state of the fandom circa the late 2000s - the decline and closure of TFDD, ATTCM, and other spaces, alongside the changing dichotomy of the media and fandom in general - that made her retreat inward a bit and cease active participation in things.
She's still around: just making use of time differently these days.
Here's the last message Raksha "officially" left the fandom via her website, back in Fall 2009:
===
Raksha's Decepticon Archive
"Archive" sounds so much better than "cobweb," don't you think? But the truth is, the old plumed-serpent.com site had turned into a cobw- er, archive, as I just didn't have the time to keep it updated. Add to that, I'm utterly and completely uninterested in any current incarnation of what passes for "Transformers" these days, be that a movie, cartoon, comics, or toys. I can't even be bothered to hate it - I simply don't care. (Although it must be said somewhere on this site, and it might as well be up-front: Beast Wars STILL sucks!) As a result, I am no longer active in the fandom. I had in mind, at some point, to bring out a last grand-finale issue of Con-Quest, and to finish up some of those long-scheduled fanfics. It may or may not still happen; I will make no promises. At this point in my life, I'm happily raising a multi-species menagerie, and am putting my energies into creating an independently self-sustaining home ecosystem. The Serpent has returned to the jungle, so to speak.
That's not to say that I don't retain my love of the Transformers universe - the real Transformers universe, which to my mind means G1, G2, and the Japanese series, with all of their accessory toys, comics, and artifacts. That's not to say that Megatron and Soundwave and the other great Decepticons, with their courage and uncompromising individuality, their fierce loyalties and grand passions, haven't continued to be a guiding force in my daily life. The Transformers universe is ultimately about the characters, more so than any material collectibles, and it's the characters who are the role models and inspirations to countless fans, both past and present. In that sense, it would be a shame to have all the works from the old web site lost to a passing era and a changing world: the Tribute to Soundwave, the Decepticon Leaders, the fanfic, the character profiles, the Con-Quest essays, the Mush logs (all those wonderful all-night role-playing sessions!), and even the Artifacts List, probably my most "bi-partisan" project.
So this is a re-launch, of sorts. Not everything from the old site is here; it's a pared-down and more focused version. I may add occasional links to TF-related items for sale, but otherwise the site will probably not be updated often, if at all. It will stand as an archive to the Decepticon cause, and to what I consider the best contributions and memories I have of my time in the TransFandom, intense and dazzling and triumphant and sometimes antagonizing as it was. Given the amount of misinformation, distortion, and even deliberate lies which apparently are still out there about me and my causes and advocacies, here is the original source material for comparative purposes. You may take it or leave it, you may make of it what you will, but it stands without apology. I learned it from Megatron many years ago, and it still defines my life: Forge your own path, and never, ever compromise yourself. And from Soundwave: trust in your own wisdom. Only you know what's right for you, and nobody can tell you otherwise.
From a place that is not a place
And a time where time has no meaning,
Update: Sept. 19, 2009
For all that I said I wouldn't be doing much updating here, the dusting-off of the old files has reactivated a creative neurocircuit or two. So I have added a newly-written story ("Sunburst") in the Fanfics section, and a couple of "new" Serpent's Eye reviews (one of which truly is new, and the other having been originally posted to the TF newsgroups some years ago, but never affixed to a permanent home on the web). There's also a Links page now, and a scattering of pictures to go with some stories and essays. Got some other ideas in the works, but their manifestation will depend on the available time and energy. For now, this is it....
===
JB
Codigo Postal
> My understanding is that Raksha's care and affection for the original characters, stories, and mythology hasn't wavered. She still references many of them on Facebook these days.
>
> However, it was the state of the fandom circa the late 2000s - the decline and closure of TFDD, ATTCM, and other spaces, alongside the changing dichotomy of the media and fandom in general - that made her retreat inward a bit and cease active participation in things.
>
> She's still around: just making use of time differently these days.
>
> Here's the last message Raksha "officially" left the fandom via her website, back in Fall 2009:
>
> ===
>
> Raksha's Decepticon Archive
> "Archive" sounds so much better than "cobweb," don't you think? But the truth is, the old plumed-serpent.com site had turned into a cobw- er, archive, as I just didn't have the time to keep it updated. Add to that, I'm utterly and completely uninterested in any current incarnation of what passes for "Transformers" these days, be that a movie, cartoon, comics, or toys. I can't even be bothered to hate it - I simply don't care. (Although it must be said somewhere on this site, and it might as well be up-front: Beast Wars STILL sucks!) As a result, I am no longer active in the fandom. I had in mind, at some point, to bring out a last grand-finale issue of Con-Quest, and to finish up some of those long-scheduled fanfics. It may or may not still happen; I will make no promises. At this point in my life, I'm happily raising a multi-species menagerie, and am putting my energies into creating an independently self-sustaining home ecosystem. The Serpent has returned to the jungle, so to speak.
> That's not to say that I don't retain my love of the Transformers universe - the real Transformers universe, which to my mind means G1, G2, and the Japanese series, with all of their accessory toys, comics, and artifacts. That's not to say that Megatron and Soundwave and the other great Decepticons, with their courage and uncompromising individuality, their fierce loyalties and grand passions, haven't continued to be a guiding force in my daily life. The Transformers universe is ultimately about the characters, more so than any material collectibles, and it's the characters who are the role models and inspirations to countless fans, both past and present. In that sense, it would be a shame to have all the works from the old web site lost to a passing era and a changing world: the Tribute to Soundwave, the Decepticon Leaders, the fanfic, the character profiles, the Con-Quest essays, the Mush logs (all those wonderful all-night role-playing sessions!), and even the Artifacts List, probably my most "bi-partisan" project.
> So this is a re-launch, of sorts. Not everything from the old site is here; it's a pared-down and more focused version. I may add occasional links to TF-related items for sale, but otherwise the site will probably not be updated often, if at all. It will stand as an archive to the Decepticon cause, and to what I consider the best contributions and memories I have of my time in the TransFandom, intense and dazzling and triumphant and sometimes antagonizing as it was. Given the amount of misinformation, distortion, and even deliberate lies which apparently are still out there about me and my causes and advocacies, here is the original source material for comparative purposes. You may take it or leave it, you may make of it what you will, but it stands without apology. I learned it from Megatron many years ago, and it still defines my life: Forge your own path, and never, ever compromise yourself. And from Soundwave: trust in your own wisdom. Only you know what's right for you, and nobody can tell you otherwise.
>
> From a place that is not a place
> And a time where time has no meaning,
>
>
> Update: Sept. 19, 2009
>
> For all that I said I wouldn't be doing much updating here, the dusting-off of the old files has reactivated a creative neurocircuit or two. So I have added a newly-written story ("Sunburst") in the Fanfics section, and a couple of "new" Serpent's Eye reviews (one of which truly is new, and the other having been originally posted to the TF newsgroups some years ago, but never affixed to a permanent home on the web). There's also a Links page now, and a scattering of pictures to go with some stories and essays. Got some other ideas in the works, but their manifestation will depend on the available time and energy. For now, this is it....
>
> ===
>
> JB
It's always interesting to see how some formerly hardcore/integral fans have moved on, while others remain current and invested in the franchise.
To paraphrase Churchill, "Never grow up! Never grow up! Never grow up!"