Transformers animation cels and other production art- your help needed!
R. Tursi
I'm planning on making a small page about animation art and the
Transformers TV
show for my transformer animation gallery to explain the significance
of the
artwork. I have been collecting Transformer production artwork for
about 2 years
now, and one thing I've discovered is that Transformer cels and other
related
production work are virtually non-existant.
I would highly appreciate any light that someone can shed on the
topic, but first let me explain to you what I do know…
The Transformers was animated by Sunbow, a Japanese animation studio.
Post-movie production work is significantly easier to find than early
work from
early episodes, with an exception of the first few episodes.
Though my research and collecting I've found that the most common
Transformer production art to be found are character design cels.
These generally consist of a character set in an, "ideal" full body
pose. Sometimes a second image of the same character in alt mode can
be found on the same cel. (The poses are basically same poses the
characters have in the Transformers Universe comic books.) These cels
are also always stamped with the Transformers logo.
Basically, the character design cels served as color/model sheets for
both the animators as well as other people involved in the show
(writers, Hasbro reps, etc…) Multiple character design cels were made
for each character and they generally were kept around for reference
unlike footage cels which were mostly destroyed. This is probably the
reason they are generally more common in the collector's market.
Then, of course, there are things like storyboards as well as
conceptual
artwork for characters, scenery, ships and so forth. –I would say
these are the
hardest bits of Transformer production work to find these days.
The animation art that most people are familiar with are footage
cels- IE cels used as actual footage in the show. These are often the
most desirable for collectors. Other work that I would personally say
falls under this category are backgrounds, as well as rough and clean
up sketches/douga.
Up until fairly recently, footage cels were nearly non-existant.
Every once in
a great while, I would see one available for sale on ebay, or an
online
animation gallery, but these opportunities were few and far between.
Within the
last six months however, I have seen a significant rise in the amount
of footage
cels made available on the collector's market. In most cases, the cel
came with
matching master production background, but no sketches. In a few
cases, the cels
came without backgrounds or sketches and were professionally packaged
in cel
folders with plastic window openings. These particular cels sometimes
still have
¥1000 price tags (approximately $7.50 US). –which is amazing when you
consider
that most collectors will pay anywhere between $80-400 for a single
footage cel,
depending on the character(s) depicted and pose. Personally, I've seen
cels from
both the original Transformer series, and Headmasters packaged this
way. I'm
left to assume that these cels have just recently started popping up
in cel bins
throughout Japan, but I'm at a loss as to where they originated from,
and why
it's taken 16 years for them to surface. As for sketches, I've
personally never
once seen any kind of rough douga from a G1 series, though I'm
positive they
still exist somewhere. I've only seen about half a dozen clean-up
sketches
total.
Now, from what I've been told from various sources is that most
footage cels
were cleaned and the acitate re-used, which is why G1 cels are so
rare. I was
also told by one source that although some of the early episodes and
the movie
were animated in Japan, most of the episodes were actually animated in
Korea to
save on production costs. I have no idea if any of this information is
true or
not, it really seemed to me to be mostly all hear-say. If anyone else
here has
any further information concerning Transformer production artwork
–it's history,
what's happened to most of it, etc…. I would highly appreciate it if
you would
be kind enough to share your knowledge here. I will give full credit
to any new
info obtained that I use in my Transformer Production artwork
information page.
Thank you,
Roe
PS: For those interested, my personal collection of Transformer
animation art can be found here:
http://www.darkmount.com/cel/TFprodart/TFprodart.html
Morg
> I'm
> left to assume that these cels have just recently started popping up
> in cel bins
> throughout Japan, but I'm at a loss as to where they originated from,
> and why
> it's taken 16 years for them to surface.
I've put this down to demand. For 11 or so years the things would have no to
little value whatsoever and would have gone unnoticed, except by diehard
fans. Over the last few years, we have seen an increase in the number of
pure dealers who are getting involved in selling TFs (by pure dealers, I
mean dealers who don't collect TFs) and related items. I've known several
dealers who got into the idea of selling TFs a few years ago but it's taken
them this long to learn the values of TFs and the details of what parts go
with which figure.
So, look at it this way: 4 or 5 years ago when the average joe started
getting into TFs and the hobby started to gain appeal, most of the dealers
were collector dealers (like myself), ie TF collectors who buy collections
or whatever, remove what they need and then sell the rest. This type of
dealer has limited funds and contacts and is also likely to keep a rare item
for themself (like a cell).
Over the last year or so, the big dogs have gotten involved (Brians Toys is
a good example), the dealers with huge spending capabilities who are in it
purely for the money. These are the people who make these things available
as they have the means to find cells and other truely rare items.
The other thing is that as the hobby has grown, so have prices. Higher
prices always brings items out of the woodwork as people start to think "one
of those sold on Ebay for $200 and I've got one in my sock drawer. If I
Ebayed it, I too could get $200". I think that is the major factor. Watch
Ebay: when an item goes for a stupidly high price, the next day 30 of that
item will go up for sale as other people try to get a simlar price.
I hope that all makes sense, it's been a long 2 days for me and I can barely
remember my own name right now, let alone type coherent sentences :)
> If anyone else here has any further information concerning Transformer
production artwork
> -it's history,
> what's happened to most of it, etc.. I would highly appreciate it if
> you would
> be kind enough to share your knowledge here. I will give full credit
> to any new
> info obtained that I use in my Transformer Production artwork
> information page.
Unfortunately, I have no information to share with you but I really wish I
did. I'm interested in animation cells too but can't afford to buy any
for the time being, so that limits my knowledge of them. I have never seen a
TF Movie cell up for sale as I'm sure I could find the money for something
like that ;)
Morg
----
too tired to insert sig
Bombblast17
animation piece (line art and an unpainted cel, I guess, from the
Constructicons toy commercial) from a mail order animation store. I talked to
the owner a bit about TF and GI joe cels and she told me that Marvel had lot,
including movie cels, in storage in New York and the place got flooded. Loads
of cels were ruined and trashed. How true that is, I'm not sure. But it seems
like most cels I've seen are only from a handful of perticular episodes ("Sea
Change", "Hoists Goes Hollywood", "The Golden Lagoon" and "The Girl who loved
Powerglide").
One thing you might do is contact the guy who runs "Quick Kick's Theater". Just
do a Google.com search for it and it should pop up. This guy seems to know and
keep track of just about everything to do with Sunbow's animation. So he might
have better answers or point you to someone who does.
Good luck and hope that helps,
toonking
R. Tursi
> TF Movie cell up for sale as I'm sure I could find the money for something
> like that ;)
>
A looong time back- probably back in 1998 or so, a heavily damaged
TF:TM Unicron cel sold on ebay for about $150.00. More recently, I've
seen one other Unicron cel and an Optimus Prime cel from TF:TM sell
for much higher prices -around the $400 range.
-Roe
R. Tursi
contact the quick kicks theater guy.
Those cels from the episodes you named... Van Eatan Galleries recently
got a large batch of cels from those same episodes. They made it sound
like they had bought out someone's personal collection though.
-Roe
Zobovor X
>No clue if this is true or not, but a few years back I bought a TF
>commercial animation piece (line art and an unpainted cel, I guess,
>from the Constructicons toy commercial) from a mail order animation
>store. I talked to the owner a bit about TF and GI joe cels and she told
>me that Marvel had lot, including movie cels, in storage in New York
>and the place got flooded. Loads of cels were ruined and trashed.
I think it probably *is* true, since I heard something very similar a while
ago. Somebody who had spoken with a former Sunbow employee had told me that
once they were done animating an episode, they packed up the animation cels and
left them in storage. A few years ago, it was discovered that over the years,
the cels had stuck together, and Sunbow ended up throwing away pretty much all
of them.
--
Zobovor
Love to eat them mousies; mousies what I love to eat.
Bite they tiny heads off; nibble on they tiny feet.
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html
Morg
> I'm
> left to assume that these cels have just recently started popping up
> in cel bins
> throughout Japan, but I'm at a loss as to where they originated from,
> and why
> it's taken 16 years for them to surface.
I've put this down to demand. For 11 or so years the things would have no to
> If anyone else here has any further information concerning Transformer
production artwork
> -it's history,
> what's happened to most of it, etc.. I would highly appreciate it if
> you would
> be kind enough to share your knowledge here. I will give full credit
> to any new
> info obtained that I use in my Transformer Production artwork
> information page.
Unfortunately, I have no information to share with you but I really wish I
did. I'm interested in animation cells too but can't afford to buy any
for the time being, so that limits my knowledge of them. I have never seen a
TF Movie cell up for sale as I'm sure I could find the money for something
like that ;)
Morg
Rik Bakke
I snagged a great condition movie cel of Starscream (from the "Much
easier, allmighty Megatron..." part of the shuttle attack scene) back in
'99 for about $230 (shipping and handling included). :)
--
Rik Bakke
silve...@c2i.net
THE CYBERTRON CHRONICLE
http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/
Transformers Fan Code
G++ FR FW+ #74 D+ AA+ N++ W++ B++ OQP BC98++ BC99++ BC2000++ BC2001++ CN+++ OM+
Synwraith
> I snagged a great condition movie cel of Starscream (from the "Much
> easier, allmighty Megatron..." part of the shuttle attack scene) back in
> '99 for about $230 (shipping and handling included). :)
Wow. that's a fantastic score!
Congrats =)
All the best
Maz, insanely jealous....wants a Cyclonus movie cel...
www.legendsofcybertron.net
Stranger
Darn those Asians and their efficiency! :-p
So, now that people know collectors like the cels, do the production
companies sell them for extra revenue, keep them in their libraries, or give
them to their emplyees as bonues?
--
Stranger- Impulse's #1 fan, next to Max of course.
R. Tursi
>
> Darn those Asians and their efficiency! :-p
>
Actually, I think it was Disney that originated that idea, waaay back
in the 1940's
It was also Disney that started the trend of selling the better
looking cels in bins at Disneyland sometime in the 60's. -For $2.00
each originally. Makes me sick.
> So, now that people know collectors like the cels, do the production
> companies sell them for extra revenue, keep them in their libraries, or give
> them to their emplyees as bonues?
Some or all of the above, depending on the company.
-Roe
Stranger
news:56b5a8b6.02021...@posting.google.com...
> Actually, I think it was Disney that originated that idea, waaay back
> in the 1940's
> It was also Disney that started the trend of selling the better
> looking cels in bins at Disneyland sometime in the 60's. -For $2.00
> each originally. Makes me sick.
Wow...$2! It's stuff like this that will get someone motivated to finally
make that time-machine.
Boy, at $2 a pop I would buy so many cels from Disney's "Hercules" it
wouldn't even be funny. Not to mention how I'd have an entire room covered
with Darkwing Duck cels.
David Willis
> wouldn't even be funny. Not to mention how I'd have an entire room
covered
> with Darkwing Duck cels.
Sad thing is, there aren't any cels from Hercules, or any cartoon from
Little
Mermaid on. They scan in the cleaned up pencil sketches, and color them
on computer.
--David
www.itswalky.com
Stranger
news:GpXa8.993$A%3.1...@ord-read.news.verio.net...
I'm actually a fan of the Hercules cartoon more than the movie. Do they use
the same computering process on their TV shows?
Darn shame that....
David Willis
use
> the same computering process on their TV shows?
No idea. If it's done overseas, it might still be hand-painted.
--David
www.itswalky.com
R. Tursi
> wouldn't even be funny. Not to mention how I'd have an entire room covered
> with Darkwing Duck cels.
Oh, Disney stopped selling cels at those prices looong before Hercules
or Darkwing Duck came out. I think they stopped around the time Walt
died, though I'm not entirely certain.. I can easily look it up if
anyone here truly cares.
-Roe
R. Tursi
Actually, you're only halfway correct here. The Little Mermaid was the
last *motion picture* in which Disney studios used traditional cel
animation. They continued to use cels in all of their cartoon series'
for a long while afterword. In fact, they may still do so.
In either event, you can still find production backgrounds and
sketches from every fifth frame for all the newer Disney films.
Computers don't replace everything.
There's also seri-cels and limited edition cels... but those are
just.... silly.
What's the point?
-Roe (who's an animation major, just for the record.)
R. Tursi
concerning the sale of old Disney cels:
Disney Courvoisier cels:
A cel set-up created and sold by the Courvoisier Galleries in the
late 1930s/early 1940s. Characters are most often trimmed to image,
glued to the background, covered with a protective top cel. In the
case of a multi-cel set-up, cels are always from the same film, but
may not all correspond to the same moment in time.
A number of distinctive backgrounds were used. Wood veneer, polka
dots, stars, and hand-painted watercolour backgrounds.
The original set-ups were framed in an off-white mat, penciled name
of the character written, and a "WDP" stamp. Labels were attached to
the back.
Often, the cels from Dumbo and Bambi were laminated.
Disneyland Art Corner cels:
Cels sold at Disneyland from the mid-1950s to the early 1970s. Cels
are trimmed, against a litho background, and have a gold seal attached
to the back of the mat.
Disney Seal Cel:
Mostly sold in the 1970s. Full cels laminated and embossed with
"Original hand-painted movie film cel". These seals are larger than
the ones used today. Many Robin Hood and Rescuers cels fall into this
category. Occasionally, a Sleeping Beauty cel will have been sold in
this manner.
Concerning cels from Disney's television cartoons...
From the over 3,000 cels created for each episode, only a small
percentage are released to the art market. Selected from the on-going
television production archives, each one-of-a-kind cel depicts the
highest quality character images and compositions. Each cel is set
against a reproduction of the original animation background. Other cel
set-ups are accompanied by the original "clean-up drawing" used in the
animation process.
And apparently, Disney STILL uses traditional cel animation to this
day. Only the motion pictures are animated using computers.
-Roe (who was plesantly surprised to have found the above info so
easily.)
David Willis
> just.... silly.
> What's the point?
What's the point? What's the point? Don't make me rant off to you in
a "I'm going to sell you one right now" fashion -- I worked in the
Warner Bros Studio Store gallery! ;)
--David
www.itswalky.com
R. Tursi
> a "I'm going to sell you one right now" fashion -- I worked in the
> Warner Bros Studio Store gallery! ;)
>
Hah! Disney & Warner Bros hire out animation majors and freelance
artists to paint the Limited edition cels. I've done a little work
like this. Basically, a certain scene is picked and the outline is
printed out from a computer, then they pay us squat to do a sort of
paint-by-number thing with the cel. These cels are then sold for
hundreds, and in the case of the low edition numbers even thousands of
dollars to a collector. Disney is making BANK I tellsya.
As for the Seri Cels... you're paying $250+ for a glorified photocopy.
-Roe (who suspects that most people who buy those things mistake them
for production art.)
David Willis
> > a "I'm going to sell you one right now" fashion -- I worked in the
> > Warner Bros Studio Store gallery! ;)
> >
>
> Hah! Disney & Warner Bros hire out animation majors and freelance
> artists to paint the Limited edition cels. I've done a little work
> like this. Basically, a certain scene is picked and the outline is
> printed out from a computer, then they pay us squat to do a sort of
> paint-by-number thing with the cel. These cels are then sold for
> hundreds, and in the case of the low edition numbers even thousands of
> dollars to a collector. Disney is making BANK I tellsya.
Sure, but what other way can you own your favorite scene? The actual
cels or original sketches are either destroyed or exist at incredibly huge
worth, so this is really the only way to "own" a scene. And it has Tweety.
Everyone loves Tweety. (*gag*)
*ka-ching*
> As for the Seri Cels... you're paying $250+ for a glorified photocopy.
Hey, the "Rabbit Seasoning" one we had was always cool.
> -Roe (who suspects that most people who buy those things mistake them
> for production art.)
Not in my store!
Then fucking AOL bought out Time Warner and shut us down. I'll never
ever forgive them.
--David
www.itswalky.com
Aaron F. Bourque
>> > What's the point? What's the point? Don't make me rant off
>> > to you in a "I'm going to sell you one right now" fashion -- I
>> > worked in the Warner Bros Studio Store gallery! ;)
>> >
>>
>> Hah! Disney & Warner Bros hire out animation majors and
>> freelance artists to paint the Limited edition cels. I've done a
>> little work like this. Basically, a certain scene is picked and
>> the outline is printed out from a computer, then they pay us
>> squat to do a sort of paint-by-number thing with the cel. These
>> cels are then sold for hundreds, and in the case of the low
>> edition numbers even thousands of dollars to a collector.
>> Disney is making BANK I tellsya.
>
>Sure, but what other way can you own your favorite scene? The
>actual cels or original sketches are either destroyed or exist at
>incredibly huge worth, so this is really the only way to "own" a
>scene. And it has Tweety. Everyone loves Tweety. (*gag*)
>
>*ka-ching*
What about those Disney exclusive cel scams?
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; scapling! Scapling!
CRYOTEK WILL EAT YOUR DREAMS!
--
Today is my birthday! (na na na-ah na na!)
Happy birthday to me, yeah (na na na-ah na na!)
Today is my birthday! (na na na-ah na na!)
23 years old today! (na na na-ah na na!)
Stranger
> What's the point? What's the point? Don't make me rant off to you in
> a "I'm going to sell you one right now" fashion -- I worked in the
> Warner Bros Studio Store gallery! ;)
Seriously, what is the point? If you want a picture of your favorite
charcter, you can get a better one for far cheaper.
Cels are about owning an original piece that was actually a part of teh
cartoon you love. Take the specialness away and what have you got?
It'll be like a comic artist selling photocopies of his original pages. If
I wanted a copy, I'd just buy the comic. :-)
Stranger
> Concerning cels from Disney's television cartoons...
> From the over 3,000 cels created for each episode, only a small
> percentage are released to the art market. Selected from the on-going
> television production archives, each one-of-a-kind cel depicts the
> highest quality character images and compositions. Each cel is set
> against a reproduction of the original animation background. Other cel
> set-ups are accompanied by the original "clean-up drawing" used in the
> animation process.
>
> And apparently, Disney STILL uses traditional cel animation to this
> day. Only the motion pictures are animated using computers.
Oooh, I'm glad to hear this. Even though they only release limited
quantities, I'm happy that Darkwing and Hercules fans have a chance to get
at some cels.
Hmmn, I bet Gargoyles Season 3 cels must be pretty cheap...maybe I can get
one of those and pretend it's from Season 1 or 2....
Stranger
Oh, I knew that, I was just having some fun imagining how things would be if
prices of certain collectibles only increased with inflation.
The 60's weren't all that long ago, so that $2 price tag sure surprised me.
R. Tursi
Ask a fancel painter to do it? Seriously.. they do it for fun. A good
one will basically just charge you $10-20 to cover the cost of
materials and perhaps a little for their time.
-Roe (who also paints fancels for fun. :)
R. Tursi
> one of those and pretend it's from Season 1 or 2....
I only wish.. I've been trying to get my hands on some decent
Gargoyles cels for a while now. Unfortunately, Disney no longer sends
cels from this series to their destributors, which means they're next
to impossible to find. On top of that, there's a surprisingly large
fan base for this series. In fact, last summer I attended The
Gathering (think Botcon, only for Gargoyles) because it was only a 30
minute drive from my house. I was hoping to maybe see a dealer there
with Gargoyles cels, but nope.. not one. There was,however, one horrid
collector with about half a dozen cels that he defaced by having voice
actors sign.. right across each one... *shudders*....MORON...
Anyway, the Gargoyles cels I *DO* see for sale always go for $250-500
on the secondary market -prices vary depending on the
character(s)/episode/pose/etc.
And if you do ever happen to find one in a Disney store/gallery, it
will only have a lazor print background and It will be priced at
exactly $275 -no more no less.
It doesn't matter if it's from the shitty Goliath Chronicals or not,
people will still pay quite a lot. Oh the power of Disney...
-Roe (who really wants to find a cel of Puck... yeah right...)
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>There was,however, one horrid collector with about half a dozen cels
>that he defaced by having voice actors sign.. right across each one...
That's sort of how I feel about fans who get voice actors/writers/whatever to
sign their MISB toys, actually. I mean, if you want the person's autograph
that badly, why not get an autograph book? In the meantime, the autograph
signficantly diminishes the value of the toy (IMO, of course... I could be
wrong, I suppose) which makes me wonder what the point is of keeping it MISB to
begin with.
I can sort of understand doing this with comic books, since you can at least
have people sign them in the white margins without ruining your ability to read
the comic. I sure wouldn't want anybody scribbling all over my toys,
regardless of *who* they were, though. :)
R. Tursi
> sign their MISB toys, actually. I mean, if you want the person's autograph
> that badly, why not get an autograph book? In the meantime, the autograph
> signficantly diminishes the value of the toy (IMO, of course... I could be
hmm.. well I have to admit that I don't fully agree with you here.
There is a significant difference between an animation cel and a MISB
toy in my opinion.- namely that there are thousands upon thousands of
MISB toys at one point, especially the newer ones. Each toy is
identical to the next. So having your Beast Wars Waspinator signed by
Scott McNeal doesn't nessessarily bring down the price- it makes that
particular Waspinator unique from the thousands of others. Now I'm not
saying that I go out and have all my MISB toys signed, hell I don't
even KEEP MISB toys. I think the whole idea is a little silly. But I
can at least understand the views of people who do keep them and
people who have them signed.
As for a cel however - each one is unique from all the others. They
aren't something that's pumped out of a factory assembly line. Each
cel is hand painted by a professional animator. Cels should be
considered a piece of artwork, and thus the only person really
qualified to sign it is the person who painted it.
(This is also why I can't understand why people have VAs sign Dan
Khanna prints, and other fan-art.)
So having some voice actor who had nothing to do with the animation
process sign right across the entire cel makes no sense to me. Having
the dub actor of a Japanese anime series sign a cel is even worse. Yet
I see it all the time. Its one of my biggest pet pieves about cel
collecting.
-Roe (who thinks autographs in general are kinda dumb...)
Steve-o Stonebraker
> The Transformers was animated by Sunbow, a Japanese animation studio.
You seem to know more about this than I, Roe, but isn't this an incorrect
statement? Sunbow is an American company which produces animation, but
the animation work itself is outsourced to Asian studios. There's no
"Sunbow studio". The studios I've seen mentioned as having done TF work
are Toei (duh), AKOM, and Tokyo Movie Sinsha.
--Steve-o
Buster & Hydra's Masterforce/Victory subtitling project needs donations!
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Stranger
news:56b5a8b6.0202...@posting.google.com...
On top of that, there's a surprisingly large
> fan base for this series. In fact, last summer I attended The
> Gathering (think Botcon, only for Gargoyles) because it was only a 30
> minute drive from my house.
Really, i hadn't realized that the Gargorles fandom was organized enough to
support to a convention. So, how many people attended?
There was,however, one horrid
> collector with about half a dozen cels that he defaced by having voice
> actors sign.. right across each one... *shudders*....MORON...
Ehh, I gotta' disagree with you. Since I don't really foresee selling any
of my cels, I wouldn't mind having a voice actor sign a cel of a favorite
character. It'd make it a bit more special for me. I guess since you're an
animator, you have a more protective attitude toward cels? Or do you
dislike signings in general?
> And if you do ever happen to find one in a Disney store/gallery, it
> will only have a lazor print background and It will be priced at
> exactly $275 -no more no less.
> It doesn't matter if it's from the shitty Goliath Chronicals or not,
> people will still pay quite a lot. Oh the power of Disney...
Heh, well I was just making a crack about the quality of "the Goliath
Chronicles" when i said Season 3 must go for cheap....but wow, I can't
believe people would pay that much for a cel from the episode "Brooklyn goes
Hollywood." C'mon, have they no shame?
R. Tursi
> statement? Sunbow is an American company which produces animation, but
> the animation work itself is outsourced to Asian studios. There's no
> "Sunbow studio". The studios I've seen mentioned as having done TF work
> are Toei (duh), AKOM, and Tokyo Movie Sinsha.
>
Heh.. yeah, I think I got a little mixed up in my rush to send that
first post out. I get the names Sunbow and Sunrise mixed up all the
time. You're correct about the other studios though. Silly me.
-Roe (D'oh!)
Rik Bakke
> R. Tursi wrote:
>
> > There was,however, one horrid collector with about half a dozen
> > cels that he defaced by having voice actors sign.. right across each
> > one...
>
> That's sort of how I feel about fans who get voice actors/writers/
> whatever to sign their MISB toys, actually. I mean, if you want the
> person's autograph that badly, why not get an autograph book? In
> the meantime, the autograph signficantly diminishes the value of the
> toy (IMO, of course... I could be wrong, I suppose) which makes me
> wonder what the point is of keeping it MISB to begin with.
So how do you guys feel about this? At BotCon last year, I bought an
animation cel from Paul Davids that was a rare robot-mode Grimlock
appearance from Paul's own 'Thief in the Night.' A pencil sketch came
with it, and I had Paul sign that inobtrusively in one of the corners with
a fine silver pen. (He asked $350 for it, I believe, but since I'm given to
understand that S3 cels are anything but easy to come by these days,
I think it was worth it.)
> I can sort of understand doing this with comic books, since you can
> at least have people sign them in the white margins without ruining
> your ability to read the comic. I sure wouldn't want anybody scribbling
> all over my toys, regardless of *who* they were, though. :)
If I were to have my toys signed by their voice actors, I would make
sure I had duplicates, which is what I tend to do with stuff like the
few comics and convention programs that have been autographed
for me. :)
Rik Bakke
> On 11 Feb 2002 20:32:40 -0800, R. Tursi wrote:
>
> > The Transformers was animated by Sunbow, a Japanese animation
> > studio.
>
> You seem to know more about this than I, Roe, but isn't this an incorrect
> statement? Sunbow is an American company which produces animation,
> but the animation work itself is outsourced to Asian studios. There's no
> "Sunbow studio". The studios I've seen mentioned as having done TF
> work are Toei (duh), AKOM, and Tokyo Movie Sinsha.
Correct. Sunbow Productions is a subsidiary of sorts to the advertising
agency of Griffin Bacal, who had Hasbro as a client. You could say that
Sunbow was the link between Hasbro and Marvel Productions.
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>Tokyo Movie Sinsha.
Who are these guys?
Steve-o Stonebraker
Well, first of all, I misspelled it. It's Tokyo Movie Shinsha. I am
*not* an expert, so don't quote me, but I believe they're the folks that
did "Call of the Primitives". They're generally considered to be a
really, really good studio. They did some Animaniacs work, too. I don't
know if they did any other TF eps besides "Primitives". Somebody like Rik
or Doug or Malin would probably know better than I.
JORDAN L DERBER
Steve-o Stonebraker <sst...@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>Well, first of all, I misspelled it. It's Tokyo Movie Shinsha. I am
Well, technically "si" is also an accepted romanization for that
particular Japanese phoneme, since it follows the 's' pattern of that set
of kana (sa, si, su, se, so). But yeah, it's normally romanized as
"Shinsha" in English, although they're usually called just "Tokyo Movie"
in Japanese or "TMS Entertainment, Ltd." as their international title.
>*not* an expert, so don't quote me, but I believe they're the folks that
>did "Call of the Primitives". They're generally considered to be a
>really, really good studio. They did some Animaniacs work, too. I don't
>know if they did any other TF eps besides "Primitives". Somebody like Rik
>or Doug or Malin would probably know better than I.
Don't remember hearing that they've done other TF work, but they are also
known for Akira, Lupin III, Detective Conan, and some Batman eps (which
was had some eps done by Sunrise and Akom IIRC).
Jordan Derber, Uber-Otaku
aka H-K
aka Buster Darkwings, Evil Destron Fairy
Subtitler and Co-Organizer of the Japanese TF episode fansubbing project
Donations needed for the project!
E-mail me at jsd...@pitt.edu for fundraiser sale info
R. Tursi
> support to a convention. So, how many people attended?
>
>
Yeah, it's pretty darned organized I'd say... I was impressed.
The attendance wasn't quite on par with Botcon, but there were still
quite a few people there. And the guest list was *very* impressive.
More guests than I've ever seen at any Botcon. I think it might have
to do with the fact that Greg Weisman (the brilliant mind behind
Gargoyles) heavily supports the con, and he gets a lot of the people
who worked on the show to show up.
> Ehh, I gotta' disagree with you. Since I don't really foresee selling any
> of my cels, I wouldn't mind having a voice actor sign a cel of a favorite
Eek..
That seems to be what most people who have cels signed say.
No offense, but if I saw you having a cel signed at a con, I'd
probably say some very nasty things to you. I sometimes get a little
worked up over it. I hate to admit it, but I'm *really* trying hard to
retrain myself right now...
*takes deep breath*
Okay.. it's your cel, your property... you have the right to do what
you want with it... *twitches*
> character. It'd make it a bit more special for me. I guess since you're an
> animator, you have a more protective attitude toward cels? Or do you
> dislike signings in general?
>
I'm not against having things signed at all. I'm very indifferent
towards autographs to be honest. It's not my thing, but I understand
why people like them. I admit that I've had loose toys signed at past
Botcons, but in recent years, it's gotten to be so popular that I
simply can't justify standing in line for an hour to have it done. I
don't know why I'm so against having cels signed... I don't think it
has anything to do with my profession. Really, I just hate it. I feel
like they're being defaced.
I'm doing a pretty lousy job at arguing my point aren't I?
> Heh, well I was just making a crack about the quality of "the Goliath
> Chronicles" when i said Season 3 must go for cheap....
Yeah, I understand. Though I think it was more the writing quality
that went down as opposed to the animation quality. That was when Greg
left the show. Damned Disney. Believe it or not, but the general
consensus among fans is that the last 12 episodes aren't even cannon,
since Greg didn't write/produce them.
>but wow, I can't
> believe people would pay that much for a cel from the episode "Brooklyn goes
> Hollywood." C'mon, have they no shame?
Heh.. actually, it was, "Broadway goes Hollywood" I can't believe I
knew that.. :)
-Roe (who wonders if *every* cartoon as the obligatory "___ goes
hollywood" episode...)
R. Tursi
> animation cel from Paul Davids that was a rare robot-mode Grimlock
> appearance from Paul's own 'Thief in the Night.' A pencil sketch came
> with it, and I had Paul sign that inobtrusively in one of the corners with
> a fine silver pen. (He asked $350 for it, I believe, but since I'm given to
> understand that S3 cels are anything but easy to come by these days,
> I think it was worth it.)
>
Are you sure he asked that much? I actually caught a hold of him
before his panel, and we had a long private discussion about animation
in general, and his work on the show. He had a lot of TF animation
cels and other production work up in his hotel room which he showed
me, but he was only asking $300 per cel then. I thought he was a
little overpriced since most of his cels were of B and C quality, but
I was very impressed with some of his character design sheets and
conceptual art. I ended up taking quite a few things off his hands via
sort of a half trade and half sale. In fact, all of the B&W art, as
well as the Rodimus/Perceptor/Alielbot cel on my site were from Paul
Davids.
-Roe (damn me and my conpulsive buying...)
Rik Bakke
> I wrote:
>
> > So how do you guys feel about this? At BotCon last year, I bought
> > an animation cel from Paul Davids that was a rare robot-mode
> > Grimlock appearance from Paul's own 'Thief in the Night.' A pencil
> > sketch came with it, and I had Paul sign that inobtrusively in one
> > of the corners with a fine silver pen. (He asked $350 for it, I believe,
> > but since I'm given to understand that S3 cels are anything but easy
> > to come by these days, I think it was worth it.)
>
> Are you sure he asked that much?
Yes. I can vividly remember him admitting, "I know that's a little dear,"
but I got the distinct impression that he was rather attached to them.
I don't begrudge him for that--I kind of know where he comes from. :)
> I actually caught a hold of him before his panel, and we had a long
> private discussion about animation in general, and his work on the
> show. He had a lot of TF animation cels and other production work
> up in his hotel room which he showed me, but he was only asking
> $300 per cel then. I thought he was a little overpriced since most of
> his cels were of B and C quality,
As I recall, quite a few of them were from 'Thief in the Night,' which,
though decent enough, aren't among the most elaborate in terms of
shading and "luster." But if you mean they were worn or something,
I can't say I noticed anything like that. Anyway, since I was unaware
of him even bringing anything of the sort to the convention until
Sunday (unfortunately, I missed his panel because I was waiting in
line for the autographs of Bell, Berger, and Stephenson), by which
time he perhaps had parted with enough of them that a little bit of
reluctance began coming into play. Just an assumption. :)
> but I was very impressed with some of his character design sheets
> and conceptual art.
I believe I saw some of that, too--it seems to have been from 'Chaos.'
And it was really neat seeing backgrounds from 'Thief in the Night.'
> I ended up taking quite a few things off his hands via sort of a
> half trade and half sale. In fact, all of the B&W art, as well as the
> Rodimus/Perceptor/Alielbot cel on my site were from Paul Davids.
I'm going to have to square away some time to take a look at that
one of these days. Terrific project, Roe (if I may refer to you so). :)
Douglas W. Dlin
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>So how do you guys feel about this? At BotCon last year, I bought an
>animation cel from Paul Davids that was a rare robot-mode Grimlock
>appearance from Paul's own 'Thief in the Night.' A pencil sketch came
>with it, and I had Paul sign that inobtrusively in one of the corners with
>a fine silver pen.
I sure don't see anything wrong with that, especially since he didn't scrawl
all over the cel art like Roe was complaining about.
>If I were to have my toys signed by their voice actors, I would make
>sure I had duplicates, which is what I tend to do with stuff like the
>few comics and convention programs that have been autographed
>for me. :)
That certainly makes sense. And, actually, I wasn't talking about pulling
something current off the shelf and getting a BotCon guest to sign it. There
is, to me, a big difference between getting John Stephenson to sign your
Thundercracker PVC box and getting him to sign your MISB Thundercracker from
1984. I would think the MISB toy would be far more valuable than the
autograph.
Zobovor... ain't no way I'm letting Jack Angel near my G2 Breakdown toy. :)
R. Tursi
> I don't begrudge him for that--I kind of know where he comes from. :)
>
Yeah, I got that impression too. He told me he was only selling some
of them to pay for the trip. (He apparently bought some things in the
dealer room.)
> > $300 per cel then. I thought he was a little overpriced since most of
> > his cels were of B and C quality,
>
> As I recall, quite a few of them were from 'Thief in the Night,' which,
> though decent enough, aren't among the most elaborate in terms of
> shading and "luster." But if you mean they were worn or something,
> I can't say I noticed anything like that. Anyway, since I was unaware
I think you pay have misunderstood. In the realm of cel collecting,
quality and condition refer to two different things. Condition, of
course, is the actual physical condition of the cel - warping,
tearing, chipping, etc... all determine a cel's condition.
Quality refers to the appeal of the image dipicted. IE: What
character(s) are shown, their positioning on the cel, whether their
eyes are open or closed, and so forth. Which cel would you put more
value on? A cel of Starscream or a cel of Drag Strip? A cel with a
nice centered upper body shot of Optimus, or a cel of Megatron's arm?
Obviously, even a C quality cel of Starscream would be more appealing
to most people than an A quality cel of Drag Strip, as Starscream is a
much more popular and well known character with a large fan following.
Megatron is cool and all, but do you really want a cel of his arm? You
get my point.
All of Paul David's cels were in pristine condition, but the quality
of most of them was only so-so.
> I believe I saw some of that, too--it seems to have been from 'Chaos.'
> And it was really neat seeing backgrounds from 'Thief in the Night.'
>
Yup. All of his stuff was from those two eps.
Very cool.
> I'm going to have to square away some time to take a look at that
> one of these days. Terrific project, Roe (if I may refer to you so). :)
> --
What? Refer to me as Roe? I don't see why not. It is, after all, what
most people both in real life and online call me. :)
You can see my collection at the following link:
http://www.darkmount.com/cel
David Willis
> something current off the shelf and getting a BotCon guest to sign it.
There
> is, to me, a big difference between getting John Stephenson to sign your
> Thundercracker PVC box and getting him to sign your MISB Thundercracker
from
> 1984. I would think the MISB toy would be far more valuable than the
> autograph.
Yeah. I just want to know how you'd know it's specifically a Thundercracker
PVC box. :)
--David
Rik Bakke
> > As I recall, quite a few of them were from 'Thief in the Night,'
> > which, though decent enough, aren't among the most elaborate
> > in terms of shading and "luster." But if you mean they were
> > worn or something, I can't say I noticed anything like that.
>
> I think you pay have misunderstood.
I think I was covering my bases more than misunderstanding,
really. :)
> In the realm of cel collecting, quality and condition refer to
> two different things. Condition, of course, is the actual physical
> condition of the cel - warping, tearing, chipping, etc... all
> determine a cel's condition.
As a life-long collector of vinyl records, I'm aware. :)
> Quality refers to the appeal of the image dipicted. IE: What
> character(s) are shown, their positioning on the cel, whether
> their eyes are open or closed, and so forth. Which cel would
> you put more value on? A cel of Starscream or a cel of Drag
> Strip? A cel with a nice centered upper body shot of Optimus,
> or a cel of Megatron's arm?
We're more on the same page than you might have thought,
then. :) When referring to "shading" and "luster," I was trying
to show which is more appealing and thus "valuable" to me.
The shot in question certainly does matter, but I appreciate
much more a cel whose subject is nicely shaded and such
than a flatly-drawn one.
> > I'm going to have to square away some time to take a look at
> > that one of these days. Terrific project, Roe (if I may refer to
> > you so). :)
>
> What? Refer to me as Roe? I don't see why not. It is, after all,
> what most people both in real life and online call me. :)
Very good, then. Just being polite, since I haven't really talked
with you before. :)
> You can see my collection at the following link:
> http://www.darkmount.com/cel
I'll bookmark it. Whether it stays bookmarked probably depends
on how insanely jealous I'm going to become. ;)
R. Tursi
Oh good. :)
> Very good, then. Just being polite, since I haven't really talked
> with you before. :)
>
Not surprising considering that up until last week, I'd rarely post on
ATT.
> I'll bookmark it. Whether it stays bookmarked probably depends
> on how insanely jealous I'm going to become. ;)
Actually, my collection isn't really as impressive as some others.
It's true I've been collecting TF cels since Botcon99 (my first TF cel
purchase), but it's growth has been heavily stunted by this annoying
thing called, "extreem lack of money"
So, to help you out, I'm going to point out a couple of TF cel
auctions up on ebay that were just pointed out to me by
Maxi...@aol.com, since I know I prob won't be able to afford any new
cels this month.
Seller "alderman" Just posted two cels - one of Megatron and one of
Starscream. Both come with matching master backgrounds. Both very
nice. These cels were actually part of the batch offered by Van Eatan
Galleries last week. I dunno if this seller purchased them to re-sell,
or purchased them and then decided they really couldn't afford them.
You be the judge.
Also, seems like Tony Preto (ebay seller ID = tempti...@yahoo.com)
has another one of those 1000 yen packaged cels up on ebay. -An
Optimus with lazorprint background.
And, for those of you who are familar with the Japanese chain,
"Mandarake" - good news for those of you in the Los Angeles area. They
actually have a store in Torrance (it's been there for a couple of
years now) and are planning on opening another in Santa Monica.
Mandarake primarily deals in used manga, old collectible toys, and,
you guessed it- anime cels. The Torrance store sells on ebay quite a
bit. They're user ID is manda...@aol.com
They get G1 cels in every once in a great while, and Beast Wars cels
in ALL the time. Keep checking their auctions. (I gotta warn you
though, I go to their Torrance store often and usually snatch up the
cels I can afford before they hit ebay.)
And, if you're ever in Japan, I highly recommend checking out the
Mandarake stores there. Also, check out K-Books. You won't be
dissapointed.
-Roe (who will regret this later...)