The Ten Crimes of Transformers

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Avias

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00
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Massive spoilers for Beast Machines, Beast Wars, and all that...

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This was originally just going to be a list of the things I found to be
lacking in Beast Machines, but after seeing all the people falling back
on the old "the other series had problems too!" line, I decided to add
list for BW and G1 as well. It was harder to think of ten fatal errors
for those two, but anything in the intrest of equlity and all that.
Mind, BM was a decent show, but it seems it worked harder to make me
dislike it than it ever did to make me like it. Personal preference, I
guess.

So, in the grand tradition of the Ten Crimes of Chin (now who gets
*that* ref?), Here's the Ten Crimes of the three Transformers TV series.
All of this is, of course, IMO. Somebody's bound to dissagree with my
views, so feel free to add or debate at will.

The Ten Crimes of Beast Machines

1. Mischaracterization.
Primal goes from competant starship captian to a fanatical wannabe
messiah? Megatron goes from a savvy political player to would-be
conqueror of eternity? Rattrap goes from grumpy, wise-cracking vetran to
a whining nusiance? Granted, they improved as the show went on, but
these aren't the same characters we grew to know in the Beast Wars.

2. Inconsistent writing and poor story editing.
I *know* some of you (you know who you are) are going to start screaming
that G1 had the same problem. Apples. Oranges. G1 was a loosely
connected series of episodes that seldom took themselves seriously. BM
was a "novel for television," I believe Skir put it, that took itself
far too seriously. In G1 the incosistantcies, while maddening, are
exuseable because the writers never really expected anybody to look at
this show in any depth. They were just writing another kid's show. With
BM they *knew* there was an audience out there that would look at these
episodes in depth, and they promised us a show that would be consistant
and mature. What we got was another kid's show, with some disturbing
elements tacked on.
As for the story editing, in BW we had dedicated story editors who knew
about their built-in audience and respected them enough to try to write
more mature and intelligent stories. While there were still
inconsistancies, they weren't completely unexplainable. Take the Famous
Transmetal Driver, for example. While an origin for it was never
explicitly given, it is beyond simple to infer numerous ways for
Megatron to have aquired it during previous episodes. He could've picked
it up in the Metalhunter. It could be debri from the planet-buster. In
'Maximal no More', Dinobot noted around a half dozen *known* alien sites
with Pred installations nearby. Take your pick. To fully explain things
like Nightscream's tree, the Oracle, Megatron's accension, Waspy's trip
to Cybertron, etc., you'd really have to reach. And unlike Bob&Larry,
who would gladly explain what they had been intending when their plans
derailed, Skirsinberg's explanations tend to be of the "just because"
variety. While the episodes they wrote tended to be fairly enjoyable,
their story-editing is sub-par at best.

3. Deus ex Beast Machina.
Far too many important plot points just 'happen'. Things don't progress,
build up, and develop as much as they just drop out of the sky. We never
got any real explanation for the affore-mentioned tree, Waspy, the
Oracle, the virus, why the Key suddenly worked on Cybertron, why it
didn't drive Primal gibbering mad like it did Nightscream, etc.
Situations, abilities, powers, constantly change to meet the demands of
the plot. Hundereds of drones about to destroy you? The new character's
got a super-powerful weapon. Have to take out a planet's worth of
enemies? Don't worry, you've got Super-Spark Power! Want to stop your
boyfriend from being evil or make some plants grow? Have some
handy-dandy organic goop! Your enemy about to attain godhood? just zap
his chair and he'll conveinently forget he can fly. And so on. If the
Maximals had just sat in their cave they would've probably have had
victory just drop in their laps.

4. I'm Silverbolt! And so is my wife!
Did everybody really have to be somebody else? Not only was it cheap and
predictable, they had to twist familiar characters to do it. They ruined
Waspy's happy ending, completely ignored his leaving the Predacons, and
at the end of the series made him a twisted little joke with a few
throw-away lines. They turned Rhinox into his own evil clone and then
just killed him off without another word. The Jetstorm/Silverbolt
situation was handled reasonably well, if disturblingly, and the second
season thankfully avoided this save for the interesting and short
Noble/Megatron plot. But the concept on the whole is uninspiring and
fairly cliched.

5. Now, why did we NEED organics again?
Robots who hate technology? This is new. It's bad enough that Primal
turned into Captian Greenpeace, but does anyone else find it odd that
the Maximals never questioned it? Then there's Nightscream's 'Robot'
line... And we never did get any real reason why the planet *had* to be
organic, or why the Maxies *had* to be refformatted, beyond curing them
of the virus. Having such a strongly anti-technological message in story
about *living machines* is just beyond bizzare.

6. Don't you hate it whe shows repeat themselves? Repeat themselves?
Seriously, did it have to repeat itself so often? from reusing
animation, to rehashing stuff from previous episodes (such as that
horrendously long flashback to 'Forbidden Fruit'), to characters saying
the same thing over and over and over...

7. Nightscream.
Every show has had it's designated 'kid-friendly' (annoying) character.
G1 had Bumblebee and Wheelie. BW had Cheetor. BM has Captian Angsty
Teenager Stereotype who *fires* his *teeth* at people and *sucks* their
energy. Gods, that scares me.

8. Animation Shortcuts.
From the cheap flashing light of the Maximal transformations, to the
'painted on' details, to those ungodly speed lines, far too much of the
animation looked both cheap and rushed. It almost seems as if the
rendering time was purposefully rushed in order to get all of the
episodes out in one fell swoop.

9. Why Fox?
This only really applies to the US, but it was still a move detrimental
to the show. Fox as a network is, at the least, uninspiring, and has
singlehandedly killed franchises with their ham-handed handling of their
programming. They have dedicated contracts with Hasbro's main
competitors, ToyBiz and Bandai. They forced the show to be written to a
much more immature standard than YTV or syndication would have. They're
the ones who brought Skirsinberg onto the show. And they're the ones who
decided to play the first season all at once and then rerun it, what
will it be, *six* times before showing the second season here in the US.
Just about any other network, or even better, syndication, would've been
better. What did they really gain by this move? A Saturday morning
timeslot against Pokemon? Yayyyy.

10. For a show about TFs, it sure didn't need them.
To whit: "A technologically advanced civilization is enslaved by an evil
emperor, save for five lone companions. The companions discover an
ancient artifact that gives them unusual powers so that they may defeat
the emperor and restore nature to a world that has lost sight of it's
own history. The emperor tries to hunt them down through the companion's
old friends, who are under his mind control and lead armies of mindless
robots. The compainons must find ancient artifacts and save thier
friends in order to stop the emperor's plan to devour the souls of the
planet in a mad bid for godhood." Does it sound like I'm describing one
of any number of 'dark' animes? Once you take out all the obligatory
Transformers refrences, that's all Beast Machine's premise was. You
could replace the Transformers parts with just about anything, and have
the same show. Try doing that with BW or G1. It won't work, not without
some *major* changes to the shows.

The Ten Crimes of Beast Wars

1. Overreaching their bounds.
All too often, the story would call for something that simply could not
be done on a computer animated kid's show. Be it Dark Glass, the
coneheads fighting the Ark, most of season three. The replacements were
often both rushed and disappointing.

2. Stupid animator tricks.
The animators had a tendency to add their own jokes and flourishes to
the show, but poor communication between the writers and animators
occasionally led to, ah, difficulties. Primal's head flying past the
screen after his pod blew up, Prime's spark holder *closely* resembling
the matrix, stuff like that. Depending on how bad it was, they might
have to alter their plans for a good part of the season.

3. An unstable 1st season.
The first season of BW consisted of about 13 'continuity' and 13
'filler' episodes, with some of the most infamous episodes like "The Low
Road" and "Double Dinobot" among them. While some of the filler eps were
very good, it would've been nice if the season was more like the much
more stable season 2.

4. A rushed 3rd season.
And not so rushed, in some ways. It would seem that when Hasbro decided
to axe the show, most of the season was already mapped out. As such,
there were a lot of episodes that really dragged out (Feral Scream,
etc.), while the episodes that were really important, such as Other
Victories and Nemesis, had to be chopped up to fit in the space left and
close as many loose threads as possible. Add in a lot of indecision from
Hasbro and an anti-climatic ending to the Agenda episodes, and you have
a somewhat disappointing season.

5. Looney Tunes moments.
You know what I'm talking about. The cartoon humor put in to convince
the execs that the show was 'kid friendly'. While it was sometimes
unobtrusive, every once in a while you got something like Meg's
'tasmanian spin' in "Feral Scream", where it just completely ruins a
scene.

6. Season 3 'artifacts'.
Due to the last minute changes season three suffered, there's a few
things that just don't quite make sense. Like how Dinobot 2 in "Nemesis"
makes even less sense without "Dark Glass", or the cut scene from
"Nemesis" where G1 Meg's spark is returned.

7. Magic Powers!
Just a minor quibble, really, but things like TM2 Blackarachnia's
telekinesis, were-Cheetor, and Primal's Sparklies were, well, silly. And
I am curious as to just *how* Tigerhawk controls nature.

8. Scorponok and Terrorsaur, we hardly knew thee... *sniff!*
I understand Hasbro wanting to axe old toys to make room for the new
ones, but could they've waited longer than the *first* episode of the
second season?

9. Sooo, How about them Stasis Pods?
Now, unless I'm mistaken, the Axalon dumped out a good dozen or so pods
before it crashed. We know the fates of what, 9 of them? So what
happened to the rest of them? They seem to have just dissapeared in
season 3.

10. There IS no #10! I can't think of one. You got any?


The Ten Crimes of G1

1. Inconsistent writing (Flying Autobots?)
It always annoys me when a show breaks its own rules. It wasn't until
MTMTE part 3 that it was decided that Autobots can't fly without rocket
packs, but they do it anyway on more than one occasion. And then there’s
things like the Constructicon origins, the Dark Awakening/RoOP paradox,
etc. The story editors obviously didn't care about keeping the show
consistent.

2. Where the hell did these guys come from?
New characters were *constantly* just popping out of the ether. The
coneheads, the second series Autobots, the Movie characters, we never
got anything even resembling an origin for them. They just popped in and
out of existence as the story demanded.

3. Instant Childhood Trauma: The Movie.
It's pretty obvious that the guy who wrote the movie neither knew nor
cared about Transformers. This is obvious in both his constant
references to clothing in his script and his casual offing of so many of
the show's main characters. Prowl, Wheeljack, and Starscream were some
of my favorite characters from the first two seasons. Within the first
half of the movie, they're all *brutally murdered* to make way for a
bunch of toys... I mean characters that I had never heard of before.

4. Deus ex Matrix.
What the hell was the Matrix and where the hell did it come from? Or
Unicron for that matter? Why was the Matrix the one thing that could
stop him? And so on and so on. Both the Matrix and Unicron, the two main
plot points of the Movie, are nothing but giant MacGuffins.

5. Was there even an animation director?
Or was he just sleeping for half the series? From Sideswipe in
Decepticon HQ, to characters saying other people's lines, to nearly all
of "Carnage in C-minor", there's so many animation mistakes in the G1
series is a wonder that anything makes sense. Even if there was somebody
checking the animation, he obviously didn't give a damn. Thankfully, CGI
precludes most of these problems.

6. Oh. Is it 2005 already?
Why exactly did they skip 20 years between the second and third seasons?
It's not as if nothing happened. The 'Cons conquer Cybertron, Autobot
city is built, all of these new characters show up, etc. It would've
been nice to actually have seen these things instead of just hearing
about them in the opening narration.

7. Change isn't always for the better...
Season 1: the Defender of Life vs. the Emperor of Destruction. Season 3:
Captain Whiny vs. Emperor Nutbucket. :) Nothing against Rodimus and
Galvatron, but the radical shift in premise left me cold to the third
season when I was younger. Considering how much flak it still gets
today, I'd say I'm not the only one. It's too bad, since season 3 did
have some of the show's best moments. Would've been nice if they
could've done it without killing everyone off.

8. I stubbed my toe! Decepticons RETREAT!
For a fearsome army of warriors, the 'Cons sure ran away a lot. Every
time the 'Bots got a slight advantage, the 'Cons would run away. It gets
rather repetitive.

9. Stupid Human Tricks.
Human interference in the Great War was an interesting and often silly
factor. Humanity had suspiciously advanced technology, such as Nightbird
and B.O.T., existing along side bits of legend like Atlantis and dragons
in the TF universe. While this could be interesting, episodes like "A
Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" border on the edge of
stupidity. It didn't help that the humans themselves had so few
redeeming qualities. Spike, Sparkplug, and the rest teetered between
decent and just plain stupid. And then there's Daniel... Let us not talk
about Daniel.

10. And the point of this episode was?
Too many episodes had no real reason for existing. Episodes like
"Kremzeek", "Suprise Party", "The Girl Who Loved Powerglide", and the
like, that had no real point beyond taking up space in the season.
Change a few of the lines and you could stick them in any cartoon (ok,
maybe not "Surprise Party", but still...). In fact this did happen with
"Kremzeek" and "TGWLP", they were translated almost verbatim for TMNT.
They do very little to further the TF universe, they were just blatant
kiddie-fare.


--
#############################################################
# Avias -- http://www.crosswinds.net/~catilla/ -- #
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# So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man #
# will kill you with hardly a word. ----Terry Pratchett #
#############################################################

Thylacine 2000

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Avias wrote:

What a post! Great job, sir. You articulated many salient points that are
rarely assembled together with such wit and humor. And speaking of
which......

> 4. I'm Silverbolt! And so is my wife!

I'm marking the calendar. I have never *actually* laughed-out-loud because
of an ATT post..... until that. Thanks!

ObTF: Yeah, right. I can't follow that up!


corne...@my-deja.com

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Well, since you asked...

BW crime #10: Where the Vok did they come from, anyway?

Were we ever given a glimmer of an idea what the Vok were up to? Zealistic
defenders of the timestream or omnipotent pranksters, you be the judge. They
created Tigerhawk as their emmisary, surely they had an agenda to carry out.
They went of their way to frighten and/or intimidate the beasties, which
makes me think they were'nt as powerful as they seemed. At least the
Quintisons had a motivation and a direct link to the Transformers, but the
Vok just remained this mysterious alien entity.

I think Tarantulas' mysterious alliegance falls under this topic as well,
since he had some kind of understanding (however vague) about their nature.
(he was able to absorb their power, with... unexpected results, when he had
Tigerhawk in his lair) "Spawn of Unicron", indeed.

Michael Nicolai steamed that Starscream never made it to BM. ("Spark of
Darkness"!? What else was i supposed to think!?)


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo Himself

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Avias wrote:

<snippety-snip>

I think most of what you're saying is reasonable enough,
but the following isn't quite correct:

> The Ten Crimes of G1
>

> 3. Instant Childhood Trauma: The Movie.
> It's pretty obvious that the guy who wrote the movie neither knew nor
> cared about Transformers.

To what extent Ron Friedman *cared* about the Transformers
I shall not profess to know, but he certainly knew them! Every
single episode of the first two seasons credits him with Additional
Dialogue. If someone who contributed to 65 episodes is new to
Transformers, I haven't been a fan for 15 years.

> This is obvious in both his constant references to clothing
> in his script and his casual offing of so many of the show's
> main characters.

I'm wracking my brain for those clothes references, but
anyway, I didn't find the deaths of those characters to
be as bad as the fact that just about every pre-Movie
character was left out of the third season. Apart from
Perceptor and Blaster and the combiner teams (and the
odd Bumblebee, Powerglide, or Warpath appearance),
there were only new characters. The deaths in the movie
brought more realism into the proceedings, which I think
is good - although I can see how it could be traumatizing
for young kids.

> 4. Deus ex Matrix.
> What the hell was the Matrix and where the hell did it come from?

It's been said that the movie was written as early as 1984, which
explains the lack of characters like the Aerialbots and the Stunti-
cons, but the one thing I don't get is this:

If the idea of the Matrix existed at that early stage, how come it
was never even mentioned in any of the episodes that were
produced alongside the production of the movie? Were none of
the other writers given to know about the existence of the Matrix?

> 10. And the point of this episode was?
> Too many episodes had no real reason for existing. Episodes like
> "Kremzeek", "Suprise Party", "The Girl Who Loved Powerglide", and the
> like, that had no real point beyond taking up space in the season.

I agree that "Kremzeek!" was pretty pointless, but at least
"Surprise Party" and "The Girl Who Loved Powerglid" put
the spotlight on specific characters - and I've always liked
that. :)

I have to say that I don't see the use in always pointing out
the mistakes and flaws, though. I personally think there are
more than enough good things about it to outweigh the bad
ones. How about looking at what's good for a change? :)
--
Rikard Bakke
Swo...@xoommail.com

The Cybertron Chronicle
http://members.xoom.com/Swoop73/

Transformers Fan Code
G++ FR FW+ #72 D+ AA+ N++ W++ B++ OQP BC98++ BC99++ BC2000 CN+++ OM+


Zepherimus

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Well said all around. Nicely done Avias. Especially this line :

Change isn't always for the better...
Season 1: the Defender of Life vs. the Emperor of Destruction. Season 3:
Captain Whiny vs. Emperor Nutbucket. :)


Zepherimus
Who feels obligated to note, that very few of these lists don't break down
into rampant flames.

Orebinder

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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corne...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Well, since you asked...
>
>BW crime #10: Where the Vok did they come from, anyway?
>I think Tarantulas' mysterious alliegance falls under this topic as well

I think that's covered in #4. "A rushed 3rd season". We were supposed to
get those very answers in Other Victories but Hasbro not only cut this
multi-parter into one episode, it forced the introduction of TigerHawk as
it's main focus. Bad move.

Orebinder -- Who rather likes the guy, but still...

Recharge

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Change isn't always for the better...
Season 1: the Defender of Life vs. the Emperor of Destruction.
Season 3: Captain Whiny vs. Emperor Nutbucket. :)


This is one of the funniest things I've ever read on this ng
(right up their with WWFF: The movie). My side hurts.

Recharge, wondering who will top this...

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!


gb40...@my-deja.com

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Okay, because I have nothing better *than revise for the most important
exams ever), I'll follow you on with a similar series, for the comic
which you (plural I might add) snubbed, as usual.

1) Dodgy timing
This is a UK problem, but just look at the first fifty or so issues. Up
to #8, we follow the American stories, everything is dandy. then we get
some UK stories set not before, but *between* the previous ones. And
then later on they did it again, so we got past-tense references to
Nucleon and Unicron's coming before they appeared in stories.

2) Inconsistent art
Now, many artists were good, a few were bad, but the interchanging
styles were really off-putting at times. But that isn't so bad really.

3) Must... use... cartoon... elements
Okay, we get the Space Bridge... but this time it actually looks like a
bridge. Excellent. The Dinobots went to an island full of dinosaurs and
got buried under a load of tar. Superb. Oh, and we'll say the entire
movie happened too, just in another timeline. Thanks. Oh, and we'll make
Cybertron appear really tiny by using the cartoon images of it.

4) Stupid retcons.
The matrix is a what now? A physical entity, and there was simplymatrix
energy remaining in Prime's head? Riiiiight. Ooh, a story going back to
the Underbase saga... and now Starscream is a 100-foot tall robot that
kills everyone with a flick of his wrist.

5) Pointless stories
Now, I can accept Monstercon from Mars and the Christmas stories, as
they were actually good or fun stories. But "BBatCWoD"? Pul-ease!
Interplanetary wrestling? The only thing about these issues were the
ever-excellent letters pages. I often felt that Budiansky was pissed at
being so, ahem, under-appreciated that he made shit stuff to make his
regular work seem better.

6) Dwelling over the same characters...
Did we really need about eight stories with Blaster as the main
character? Couldn't Perceptor have occasionally got a story for himself?
And Bumblebee, yeah, he's a good guy 'n' all, but all those Bumbling
stories... god, I hated him by issue 200. Ratchet - he's a doctor, I
don't care about him. Where were the Screamer stories?!

7) Inconsistent killing
If you're a popular character, no matter how many timse you get shot,
torn apart or outright killed, there'll always be a way back to life. If
you're crap, Starscream kills you with the Underbase and you're never
seen again. theren were a lot of deaths in the comic, but some people
died a hell of a lot easier - Bumblebee (yes, him again) got shot dozens
of times and was fine, but one shot, and you're dead Sandstorm,
Impactor, Seacons. Ah well, it was nice the way generic charcters got
killed, or in the future Autobots and 'cons got killed by the
bucketload, it gave a sense of scale.

8) Who's doing what now?
God damn, there were some complicated stories. I was only a kid, but I
was expected to understand all that time-travel pullava, and there were
issues that I simply could not read, because there was too much
dialogue. I remember Dark Star was interesting because of all the action
in it, but allthe talk? Blah blah, shut up, scum!

9) Furman, what the hell is going on?
He created two storylines in the late run of the comic, one for the US
stories, one the the Brits. and they simply did not fit together. And by
the time the series finished, he'd utterly butchered Cybertron and it's
grand population of hundreds of drones, neutralists and the un-named.
There were maybe thirty Decepticons in the army by the end, and perhaps
twenty Autobots. Just where did everyone go?

10) Humans - who cares?
Now, this was really annoying. So many issues focussed on humans.
Whether it was "Man in the Machine", or "Shooting Star", or basically
any issue that wasn't set entirely on Cybertron, pages would be filled
with humans. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT MY FELLOW MAN. I buy the comic for
honking great robots shootin' each other. So screw off circuit Breaker,
no-one wants you.

GB

da_mi...@my-deja.com

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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> This was originally just going to be a list of the things I found to
be
> lacking in Beast Machines, but after seeing all the people falling
back
> on the old "the other series had problems too!" line, I decided to add
> list for BW and G1 as well. It was harder to think of ten fatal errors
> for those two, but anything in the intrest of equlity and all that.
> Mind, BM was a decent show, but it seems it worked harder to make me
> dislike it than it ever did to make me like it. Personal preference, I
> guess.
>
> So, in the grand tradition of the Ten Crimes of Chin (now who gets
> *that* ref?), Here's the Ten Crimes of the three Transformers TV
series.
> All of this is, of course, IMO. Somebody's bound to dissagree with my
> views, so feel free to add or debate at will.
>
> The Ten Crimes of Beast Machines
>
> 1. Mischaracterization.
> Primal goes from competant starship captian to a fanatical wannabe
> messiah? Megatron goes from a savvy political player to would-be
> conqueror of eternity? Rattrap goes from grumpy, wise-cracking vetran
to
> a whining nusiance? Granted, they improved as the show went on, but
> these aren't the same characters we grew to know in the Beast Wars.
>
Your right about Primal there, but Rattrap was just being a rat I
think. As for Megs we saw him change in BW to what he is (was) in BM:
see the Agenda(sp) and "Befor the Storm I think it is"

Ski is like that,"Yea I wanted to do this or that so I did" and then
some one tells him that he goofed and all we get from him is "Oh well"
Bob&Larry would at least lie to cover the goof ups.

> 3. Deus ex Beast Machina.
> Far too many important plot points just 'happen'. Things don't
progress,
> build up, and develop as much as they just drop out of the sky. We
never
> got any real explanation for the affore-mentioned tree, Waspy, the
> Oracle, the virus, why the Key suddenly worked on Cybertron, why it
> didn't drive Primal gibbering mad like it did Nightscream, etc.
> Situations, abilities, powers, constantly change to meet the demands
of
> the plot. Hundereds of drones about to destroy you? The new
character's
> got a super-powerful weapon. Have to take out a planet's worth of
> enemies? Don't worry, you've got Super-Spark Power! Want to stop your
> boyfriend from being evil or make some plants grow? Have some
> handy-dandy organic goop! Your enemy about to attain godhood? just zap
> his chair and he'll conveinently forget he can fly. And so on. If the
> Maximals had just sat in their cave they would've probably have had
> victory just drop in their laps.
>

Now that I think about it you right.

> 4. I'm Silverbolt! And so is my wife!
> Did everybody really have to be somebody else? Not only was it cheap
and
> predictable, they had to twist familiar characters to do it. They
ruined
> Waspy's happy ending, completely ignored his leaving the Predacons,
and
> at the end of the series made him a twisted little joke with a few
> throw-away lines. They turned Rhinox into his own evil clone and then
> just killed him off without another word. The Jetstorm/Silverbolt
> situation was handled reasonably well, if disturblingly, and the
second
> season thankfully avoided this save for the interesting and short
> Noble/Megatron plot. But the concept on the whole is uninspiring and
> fairly cliched.
>

That Thrust is Silverbot, no he's Waspinator sh*t pissed me off big
time. BW gave Waspy cloeser(sp) the little sub-sub-waspinaton plot was
over and had a happy ending, and to Skir it was just a big joke.

> 5. Now, why did we NEED organics again?
> Robots who hate technology? This is new. It's bad enough that Primal
> turned into Captian Greenpeace, but does anyone else find it odd that
> the Maximals never questioned it? Then there's Nightscream's 'Robot'
> line... And we never did get any real reason why the planet *had* to
be
> organic, or why the Maxies *had* to be refformatted, beyond curing
them
> of the virus. Having such a strongly anti-technological message in
story
> about *living machines* is just beyond bizzare.
>

Skir says its some kind of diven thing, and that its cybertrons
destiney. I'm ok with that. If you go to DVD's page he's got 2 good
storys that justify(sp) what skir has done.
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~dvandom/BW/index.html

> 6. Don't you hate it when shows repeat themselves? Repeat themselves?


> Seriously, did it have to repeat itself so often? from reusing
> animation, to rehashing stuff from previous episodes (such as that
> horrendously long flashback to 'Forbidden Fruit'), to characters
saying
> the same thing over and over and over...
>

YES oh yessss I got it by the 2nd ep, what they were trying to do. But
they keep repeating it all the way untill season 2. yessss I got it by
the 2nd ep, what they were trying to do. But they keep repeating it all
the way untill season 2.
yessss I got it by the 2nd ep, what they were trying to do. But they
keep repeating it all the way untill season 2.

> 7. Nightscream.
> Every show has had it's designated 'kid-friendly' (annoying)
character.
> G1 had Bumblebee and Wheelie. BW had Cheetor. BM has Captian Angsty
> Teenager Stereotype who *fires* his *teeth* at people and *sucks*
their
> energy. Gods, that scares me.
>

I liked Cheetor a little bit in BWS1 and more in BWS2 and even more in
BWS3, he was growing up, Bumblebee never did that.

> 8. Animation Shortcuts.
> From the cheap flashing light of the Maximal transformations, to the
> 'painted on' details, to those ungodly speed lines, far too much of
the
> animation looked both cheap and rushed. It almost seems as if the
> rendering time was purposefully rushed in order to get all of the
> episodes out in one fell swoop.
>

GUH! the speed lines are what i hated

> 9. Why Fox?
> This only really applies to the US, but it was still a move
detrimental
> to the show. Fox as a network is, at the least, uninspiring, and has
> singlehandedly killed franchises with their ham-handed handling of
their
> programming. They have dedicated contracts with Hasbro's main
> competitors, ToyBiz and Bandai. They forced the show to be written to
a
> much more immature standard than YTV or syndication would have.
They're
> the ones who brought Skirsinberg onto the show. And they're the ones
who
> decided to play the first season all at once and then rerun it, what
> will it be, *six* times before showing the second season here in the
US.
> Just about any other network, or even better, syndication, would've
been
> better. What did they really gain by this move? A Saturday morning
> timeslot against Pokemon? Yayyyy.
>

FOX SUX.

> 10. For a show about TFs, it sure didn't need them.
> To whit: "A technologically advanced civilization is enslaved by an
evil
> emperor, save for five lone companions. The companions discover an
> ancient artifact that gives them unusual powers so that they may
defeat
> the emperor and restore nature to a world that has lost sight of it's
> own history. The emperor tries to hunt them down through the
companion's
> old friends, who are under his mind control and lead armies of
mindless
> robots. The compainons must find ancient artifacts and save thier
> friends in order to stop the emperor's plan to devour the souls of the
> planet in a mad bid for godhood." Does it sound like I'm describing
one
> of any number of 'dark' animes? Once you take out all the obligatory
> Transformers refrences, that's all Beast Machine's premise was. You
> could replace the Transformers parts with just about anything, and
have
> the same show. Try doing that with BW or G1. It won't work, not
without
> some *major* changes to the shows.
>

NO it did not did it. The hole "Robots in discise(sp)" thing just dont
work whan you a monky runing agound on cybertron.

> The Ten Crimes of Beast Wars
>
> 1. Overreaching their bounds.
> All too often, the story would call for something that simply could
not
> be done on a computer animated kid's show. Be it Dark Glass, the
> coneheads fighting the Ark, most of season three. The replacements
were
> often both rushed and disappointing.
>

That one is lack of time and money

> 2. Stupid animator tricks.
> The animators had a tendency to add their own jokes and flourishes to
> the show, but poor communication between the writers and animators
> occasionally led to, ah, difficulties. Primal's head flying past the
> screen after his pod blew up, Prime's spark holder *closely*
resembling
> the matrix, stuff like that. Depending on how bad it was, they might
> have to alter their plans for a good part of the season.
>

Primes spark holder IS the Matrix, as far as I understand it.

> 3. An unstable 1st season.
> The first season of BW consisted of about 13 'continuity' and 13
> 'filler' episodes, with some of the most infamous episodes like "The
Low
> Road" and "Double Dinobot" among them. While some of the filler eps
were
> very good, it would've been nice if the season was more like the much
> more stable season 2.
>

Season 1 well..Hasbro and Bob and Larey(sp) probley did not know that
the show would take off the way it did so Season 1 is not as put
together as seasons 2&3 were.

> 4. A rushed 3rd season.
> And not so rushed, in some ways. It would seem that when Hasbro
decided
> to axe the show, most of the season was already mapped out. As such,
> there were a lot of episodes that really dragged out (Feral Scream,
> etc.), while the episodes that were really important, such as Other
> Victories and Nemesis, had to be chopped up to fit in the space left
and
> close as many loose threads as possible. Add in a lot of indecision
from
> Hasbro and an anti-climatic ending to the Agenda episodes, and you
have
> a somewhat disappointing season.
>

I got that felling too. BWS3 got off runing and then stopped and
started to strol.

> 5. Looney Tunes moments.
> You know what I'm talking about. The cartoon humor put in to convince
> the execs that the show was 'kid friendly'. While it was sometimes
> unobtrusive, every once in a while you got something like Meg's
> 'tasmanian spin' in "Feral Scream", where it just completely ruins a
> scene.
>

Hasbro did that they wanted a more "Kid friendly" show, even tho kids
already lover it.

> 6. Season 3 'artifacts'.
> Due to the last minute changes season three suffered, there's a few
> things that just don't quite make sense. Like how Dinobot 2 in
"Nemesis"
> makes even less sense without "Dark Glass", or the cut scene from
> "Nemesis" where G1 Meg's spark is returned.
>

With "Dark Glass" Hasbro did that they wanted a more "Kid friendly"
show, even tho kids already lover it. AS for the G1 Megatron spark that
was timeing.


> 7. Magic Powers!
> Just a minor quibble, really, but things like TM2 Blackarachnia's
> telekinesis, were-Cheetor, and Primal's Sparklies were, well, silly.
And
> I am curious as to just *how* Tigerhawk controls nature.
>

Some one, like a wrighter and/or animator got cretave, and said this
will be cool! But its not alway cool once it gets out of there head.

> 8. Scorponok and Terrorsaur, we hardly knew thee... *sniff!*
> I understand Hasbro wanting to axe old toys to make room for the new
> ones, but could they've waited longer than the *first* episode of the
> second season?
>

Scorponok sucked, I'm glad he died, I hated his voice, But poor
Terrorsaur, he was the "Starscream" of BW.

> 9. Sooo, How about them Stasis Pods?
> Now, unless I'm mistaken, the Axalon dumped out a good dozen or so
pods
> before it crashed. We know the fates of what, 9 of them? So what
> happened to the rest of them? They seem to have just dissapeared in
> season 3.
>

They did cover that they were distroyed or BADLY damaged.

> 10. There IS no #10! I can't think of one. You got any?
>

well hummmm.... never finishing the Vok thing. To me it steel seems
open to more story.

> The Ten Crimes of G1
>
> 1. Inconsistent writing (Flying Autobots?)
> It always annoys me when a show breaks its own rules. It wasn't until
> MTMTE part 3 that it was decided that Autobots can't fly without
rocket
> packs, but they do it anyway on more than one occasion. And then
there’s
> things like the Constructicon origins, the Dark Awakening/RoOP
paradox,
> etc. The story editors obviously didn't care about keeping the show
> consistent.
>

Like it been said it was a difrent time then. One wrighter sais they
can fly the next sais they cant. and the two never see that show or
eachother.

> 2. Where the hell did these guys come from?
> New characters were *constantly* just popping out of the ether. The
> coneheads, the second series Autobots, the Movie characters, we never
> got anything even resembling an origin for them. They just popped in
and
> out of existence as the story demanded.
>

Hasbro: "Put this new toy in the show so it kids will buy it.
Wrighter:"I get payed today right?"

> 3. Instant Childhood Trauma: The Movie.
> It's pretty obvious that the guy who wrote the movie neither knew nor
> cared about Transformers. This is obvious in both his constant
> references to clothing in his script and his casual offing of so many
of
> the show's main characters. Prowl, Wheeljack, and Starscream were some
> of my favorite characters from the first two seasons. Within the first
> half of the movie, they're all *brutally murdered* to make way for a
> bunch of toys... I mean characters that I had never heard of before.
>

I think the movie helped bring BW more that anything. THe script thing
I dont know and it does not matter. That does suck all them cool bots
geting killed.

> 4. Deus ex Matrix.
> What the hell was the Matrix and where the hell did it come from? Or
> Unicron for that matter? Why was the Matrix the one thing that could
> stop him? And so on and so on. Both the Matrix and Unicron, the two
main
> plot points of the Movie, are nothing but giant MacGuffins.
>

The matrix came from Primus, Unicron is the TFU devil. Well thats MY
take on it.

> 5. Was there even an animation director?
> Or was he just sleeping for half the series? From Sideswipe in
> Decepticon HQ, to characters saying other people's lines, to nearly
all
> of "Carnage in C-minor", there's so many animation mistakes in the G1
> series is a wonder that anything makes sense. Even if there was
somebody
> checking the animation, he obviously didn't give a damn. Thankfully,
CGI
> precludes most of these problems.
>

I say no but ALL cartoon of that day were like that.

> 6. Oh. Is it 2005 already?
> Why exactly did they skip 20 years between the second and third
seasons?
> It's not as if nothing happened. The 'Cons conquer Cybertron, Autobot
> city is built, all of these new characters show up, etc. It would've
> been nice to actually have seen these things instead of just hearing
> about them in the opening narration.
>

D-Con had Cybertron at the start of TF, IIRC the Bots left to find
Energon to hepl the war efert.

> 7. Change isn't always for the better...
> Season 1: the Defender of Life vs. the Emperor of Destruction. Season
3:
> Captain Whiny vs. Emperor Nutbucket. :) Nothing against Rodimus and
> Galvatron, but the radical shift in premise left me cold to the third
> season when I was younger. Considering how much flak it still gets
> today, I'd say I'm not the only one. It's too bad, since season 3 did
> have some of the show's best moments. Would've been nice if they
> could've done it without killing everyone off.
>

Movie "I Galvitron will crush you, just a Megatron cruched prime!"
Show "OH, slag you Optims Prime" THEN theres the voice change in
Galvitron.

> 8. I stubbed my toe! Decepticons RETREAT!
> For a fearsome army of warriors, the 'Cons sure ran away a lot. Every
> time the 'Bots got a slight advantage, the 'Cons would run away. It
gets
> rather repetitive.
>

Yea well there plan was biger than you knew and what was a "slight"
uper hand was realy a big deal.

> 9. Stupid Human Tricks.
> Human interference in the Great War was an interesting and often silly
> factor. Humanity had suspiciously advanced technology, such as
Nightbird
> and B.O.T., existing along side bits of legend like Atlantis and
dragons
> in the TF universe. While this could be interesting, episodes like "A
> Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" border on the edge of
> stupidity. It didn't help that the humans themselves had so few
> redeeming qualities. Spike, Sparkplug, and the rest teetered between
> decent and just plain stupid. And then there's Daniel... Let us not
talk
> about Daniel.
>

I alway thought the Humans got a helping hand from the Bots with there
robots and energy gus.

> 10. And the point of this episode was?
> Too many episodes had no real reason for existing. Episodes like
> "Kremzeek", "Suprise Party", "The Girl Who Loved Powerglide", and the
> like, that had no real point beyond taking up space in the season.
> Change a few of the lines and you could stick them in any cartoon (ok,
> maybe not "Surprise Party", but still...). In fact this did happen
with
> "Kremzeek" and "TGWLP", they were translated almost verbatim for TMNT.
> They do very little to further the TF universe, they were just blatant
> kiddie-fare.
>

That's the way it was then. "Make a show to sell this toy"
"When do we get payed?"

Da Mikeman

Heroic Autobot

unread,
May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to
Great job, well thought out. I agree with every point except for the looney
tunes part of Beast Wars. As silly as it was, it added more humor to the show
as was meant to be taken lightly. It was a good balance of slapstick and dark
humor.


Funkatron101
-"What does not destroy me makes me strong...
what attempts to destroy me shall be funked on."

Sean Brittain

unread,
May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to
But G1 cartoon were better right? The same could be said about G1 cartoons,
G1&2 comics, Beast Wars and now Beast Machines. IT IS JUST A STORY!!!!!!
<gb40...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8f9nh0$pc2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

Duo Maxwell

unread,
May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to
> 6) Dwelling over the same characters...
> Did we really need about eight stories with Blaster as the main
> character? Couldn't Perceptor have occasionally got a story for himself?
> And Bumblebee, yeah, he's a good guy 'n' all, but all those Bumbling
> stories... god, I hated him by issue 200. Ratchet - he's a doctor, I
> don't care about him. Where were the Screamer stories?!

Hey!! I liked Bob B.'s emphasis on Ratchet and Blaster!!!
They were pretty much losers on the cartoon, but they were important, 3
dimensional characters in the comics.
The cartoon Blaster was sorta like that guy in the 7up yours commericals,
while the comic one was like Samuel L. Jackson.
And Ratchet brought a more pacifistic view of what was going on in the
comics, as opposed to the views of some psycho warmongers who just want to
blow stuff up. Ratchet was a healer, in a war he had little stomach for,
and he had to go above and beyond his calling to save his fellow Autobots.
He faced off against Megatron, one of the most powerful Decepticons ever,
and managed to survive.
(Missed most of the past #50 US comics so I dont know what happened after
that...)


Avias

unread,
May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to
SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo Himself wrote:
>
> Avias wrote:
>
> <snippety-snip>
>
> I think most of what you're saying is reasonable enough,
> but the following isn't quite correct:
>
> > The Ten Crimes of G1
> >
> > 3. Instant Childhood Trauma: The Movie.
> > It's pretty obvious that the guy who wrote the movie neither knew nor
> > cared about Transformers.
>
> To what extent Ron Friedman *cared* about the Transformers
> I shall not profess to know, but he certainly knew them! Every
> single episode of the first two seasons credits him with Additional
> Dialogue. If someone who contributed to 65 episodes is new to
> Transformers, I haven't been a fan for 15 years.

Really! I didn't know that. I was kinda nervous about posting the G1
list anyway, as it's been so long since I've seen most of them I don't
feel too comfortable about debating them. I knew I'd get something wrong
:) But since some people here have made it their duty to jump on anyone
who critisies BM without mentioning the problems in earlier shows...

At any rate, I still don't think Freidman really cared about the
characters. The way he offed the older characters was just *too* brutal
and casual, IMO.

>
> > This is obvious in both his constant references to clothing
> > in his script and his casual offing of so many of the show's
> > main characters.
>

> I'm wracking my brain for those clothes references,

In the early draft of the script that's been online for a while, there's
references like Scourge and the Sweeps wearing the same uniforms, or the
only remains of Starscream being his boots. Things like that made me
assume that he was just a hired gun, and didn't really know too much
about the show.



> > 10. And the point of this episode was?
> > Too many episodes had no real reason for existing. Episodes like
> > "Kremzeek", "Suprise Party", "The Girl Who Loved Powerglide", and the
> > like, that had no real point beyond taking up space in the season.
>

> I agree that "Kremzeek!" was pretty pointless, but at least
> "Surprise Party" and "The Girl Who Loved Powerglid" put
> the spotlight on specific characters - and I've always liked
> that. :)

I agree, the character-specific eps in G1 were great. But they're even
better when they try to go beyond just kiddie-fare, like "The Master
Builders" or "Auto-Beserk".



> I have to say that I don't see the use in always pointing out
> the mistakes and flaws, though. I personally think there are
> more than enough good things about it to outweigh the bad
> ones. How about looking at what's good for a change? :)

I normally don't complain about the shows. I love G1 and BW, despite the
occasional flaw, and even find BM to be at least watchable. Maybe not
re-watchable, but still, it's decent. But some of these points have been
sitting in the back of my mind for a while now, and with all the
arguments going back and forth with little to back them up, I felt they
needed to be said. :|

To make myself feel better, I will now go watch "The Low Road" a couple
of times :)

Avias

unread,
May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to
Orebinder wrote:
>
> corne...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >Well, since you asked...
> >
> >BW crime #10: Where the Vok did they come from, anyway?
> >I think Tarantulas' mysterious alliegance falls under this topic as well
>
> I think that's covered in #4. "A rushed 3rd season". We were supposed to
> get those very answers in Other Victories but Hasbro not only cut this
> multi-parter into one episode, it forced the introduction of TigerHawk as
> it's main focus. Bad move.

Thank you for covering my ass :)

I actually did mean to mention the Vok, but completely forgot about them
when I typed up the post. But as you said, the fact that we never got
any real info about them was pretty much a result of the various
problems in season 3. It also wouldv'e been nice if "Other Visits"
wasn't such a tease, seeing as how it was the only real alien-specific
episode we got in season 2. Oh well.

--
Just didn't find the aliens as interesting after season 1.

Y2Bogus

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to

The Vok were IMO the most interesting part of BW. I faithfully watched
evry ep to catch a glimpse of them. It seemed like B&L were building to
a huge climax for the Vok. It broke my heart when Other Victories
aired, and the Aliens I so admired were lambasted like that. I really
hoped they would get into a reason for the Vok's existence, who they
were, what stake they had in the Beast Wars and such. It was a good
concept, but was horribly executed.

Avias wrote:
>
> Orebinder wrote:
> >
> > corne...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >Well, since you asked...
> > >
> > >BW crime #10: Where the Vok did they come from, anyway?
> > >I think Tarantulas' mysterious alliegance falls under this topic as well
> >
> > I think that's covered in #4. "A rushed 3rd season". We were supposed to
> > get those very answers in Other Victories but Hasbro not only cut this
> > multi-parter into one episode, it forced the introduction of TigerHawk as
> > it's main focus. Bad move.
>
> Thank you for covering my ass :)
>
> I actually did mean to mention the Vok, but completely forgot about them
> when I typed up the post. But as you said, the fact that we never got
> any real info about them was pretty much a result of the various
> problems in season 3. It also wouldv'e been nice if "Other Visits"
> wasn't such a tease, seeing as how it was the only real alien-specific
> episode we got in season 2. Oh well.
>
> --
> Just didn't find the aliens as interesting after season 1.

> #############################################################
> # Avias -- http://www.crosswinds.net/~catilla/ -- #
> # G++++ FR+ FW- M #90+ D+++ ADA N++ W+ B+++ OP MU- OM+ P209 #
> # --------------------------------------------------------- #
> # So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man #
> # will kill you with hardly a word. ----Terry Pratchett #
> #############################################################

--
"Are you American?"
"No, I'm Canadian. It's like an American, but without a gun."

Recharge

unread,
May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to
Uh, dude, did you READ this friggin' post? It DID cover
everything, except the comics. And another poster got to those
too. Now go sit in the corner. : )

Recharge

Zobovor

unread,
May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
to
[Spoilers for Beast Machines seasons one and two.]

Avias wrote:

>S
>S
>U
>S
>M
>A
>
>C
>H
>I
>E
>N
>
>A
>T
>E
>
>M
>Y
>
>B
>A
>B
>Y
>!

Not... going... to ask... :)

>To fully explain things like Nightscream's tree, the Oracle, Megatron's
>accension, Waspy's trip to Cybertron, etc., you'd really have to reach.

Am I the only one who didn't have a problem with Waspinator's explanation of
how he got to Cybertron? (I'm talking about the *explanation,* not Waspy's
presence in BM.)

>Seriously, did it have to repeat itself so often? from reusing
>animation, to rehashing stuff from previous episodes (such as that
>horrendously long flashback to 'Forbidden Fruit'), to characters saying
>the same thing over and over and over...

You know, I could almost have accepted this bit. We were told very early on
that BM would not be a serial... well, even though it turned out to be a
26-episode long story. But there is no excuse for repeating the same thing
three times in *one* episodes. Do kids today really have attention spans that
short?

Wait, what was I getting at...?

>Other Victories and Nemesis, had to be chopped up to fit in the space
>left and close as many loose threads as possible. Add in a lot of
>indecision from Hasbro and an anti-climatic ending to the Agenda
>episodes, and you have a somewhat disappointing season.

You know what irks me, in retrospect? We *could* have gotten a colossal
cliffhanger ending for Beast Wars as was originally planned, since it turns out
that Beast Machines was a direct continuation of it anyway.

>And I am curious as to just *how* Tigerhawk controls nature.

Ask Ororu, maybe she knows...

>9. Sooo, How about them Stasis Pods?
>Now, unless I'm mistaken, the Axalon dumped out a good dozen or so
>pods before it crashed. We know the fates of what, 9 of them?

I count at least 19 that got dumped, in fact.

>10. And the point of this episode was?
>Too many episodes had no real reason for existing. Episodes like
>"Kremzeek", "Suprise Party", "The Girl Who Loved Powerglide", and
>the like, that had no real point beyond taking up space in the season.
>Change a few of the lines and you could stick them in any cartoon (ok,
>maybe not "Surprise Party", but still...). In fact this did happen with
>"Kremzeek" and "TGWLP", they were translated almost verbatim for
>TMNT.

And The Real Ghostbusters. Don't forget when Slimer turned into Kremzeek as
well. :)

I'd say that last one can be chalked up to scriptwriter David Wise recycling
plots (well, and specific lines of dialogue) more than anything else. I can
see "Surprise Party" as having some merits as it's easily the most
"kid-friendly" episode of the third season, and really the only showcase
episode Daniel ever got. Supposedly, kids could relate to him. Me, I was
supposedly about his age when the episode originally aired (eleven, I think)
and I thought he was a whiny brat...

ZobTrivia (5/9): Who was the first Autobot toy with blue eyes?

(5/7): Enara was an ambasador from planet Odessyx.

ZMFTS!
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html

Darwinian Road Kill

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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Avias (av...@ncounty.net) wrote:
<snippety> <bonk> <woof!> <co-braaaaaa!>
: So, in the grand tradition of the Ten Crimes of Chin (now who gets

: *that* ref?), Here's the Ten Crimes of the three Transformers TV series.
: All of this is, of course, IMO. Somebody's bound to dissagree with my
: views, so feel free to add or debate at will.

These are quite funny. May I add some bits?

: The Ten Crimes of Beast Machines

: 3. Deus ex Beast Machina.
:If the


: Maximals had just sat in their cave they would've probably have had
: victory just drop in their laps.

Well, considering how long it takes them to figure out that they really
should do something about those lost sparks... I'm surprised it didn't.

: 4. I'm Silverbolt! And so is my wife!

That explains the lesbian scene in S2. Kidding.

: They turned Rhinox into his own evil clone and then


: just killed him off without another word.

Much to Richard Newman's dismay... "I'm in, I'm out, I'm in, no, I'm back
out. Heck with it."

However, Rhinox has the capacity for evil... "Dark Designs"?


: 7. Nightscream.


: Every show has had it's designated 'kid-friendly' (annoying) character.
: G1 had Bumblebee and Wheelie.

Well, Wheelie. Bumblebee was actually well-written and fun to be around.

:BW had Cheetor. BM has Captian Angsty


: Teenager Stereotype who *fires* his *teeth* at people and *sucks* their
: energy. Gods, that scares me.

: The Ten Crimes of Beast Wars


: 5. Looney Tunes moments.


: You know what I'm talking about. The cartoon humor put in to convince
: the execs that the show was 'kid friendly'. While it was sometimes
: unobtrusive, every once in a while you got something like Meg's
: 'tasmanian spin' in "Feral Scream", where it just completely ruins a
: scene.

Well, sadly, Mainframe has no small number of WB wannabes on its animation
staff...

: 9. Sooo, How about them Stasis Pods?


: Now, unless I'm mistaken, the Axalon dumped out a good dozen or so pods
: before it crashed. We know the fates of what, 9 of them? So what
: happened to the rest of them? They seem to have just dissapeared in
: season 3.

They landed on the Island of... Ah, but that would spoil. :)

Or maybe they ended up in Tropical Prehistoric Japan, as WAR suggested,
IIRC. :)

: 10. There IS no #10! I can't think of one. You got any?

Yes. No Penguins. (Okay, there's Break in Neo, but I beleive this
discussion is only covering US shows...)


: The Ten Crimes of G1

: 2. Where the hell did these guys come from?


: New characters were *constantly* just popping out of the ether. The
: coneheads, the second series Autobots, the Movie characters, we never
: got anything even resembling an origin for them. They just popped in and
: out of existence as the story demanded.

Skids: I'm back from my recon mission!
Optimus: Who are you again?

: 3. Instant Childhood Trauma: The Movie.

As a major Starscream fan, I can only say, "A-yup".

: 4. Deus ex Matrix.


: What the hell was the Matrix and where the hell did it come from? Or
: Unicron for that matter? Why was the Matrix the one thing that could
: stop him? And so on and so on. Both the Matrix and Unicron, the two main
: plot points of the Movie, are nothing but giant MacGuffins.

Thank Primus for Simon Furman. :)

: 8. I stubbed my toe! Decepticons RETREAT!


: For a fearsome army of warriors, the 'Cons sure ran away a lot. Every
: time the 'Bots got a slight advantage, the 'Cons would run away. It gets
: rather repetitive.

Well, Megatron needed to digest the shock of his grand army losing. It
seems that every other epsiode, there'd be a big fight, the Decepticons
would get nailed, and Megatron would be on a hill watching them lose
saying, "No! It can't be!" That, or he'd decide to settle things with the
old-fashions *Contest of Champions*... and get disqualified. "Hey you said
you'd crush me with your bare hands! Put that javelin down!" "*grumble*"

: 9. Stupid Human Tricks.


: Human interference in the Great War was an interesting and often silly
: factor. Humanity had suspiciously advanced technology, such as Nightbird

Nightbird is easily explainable. She was Maid in Japan. :) After all,
Japan had already invented everything 10 years ahead of time. :)

Hence those G1 stories where Japan got attacked, and it was a *very big
deal* (I recall 2 from US-written G1 eps, myself). And Optimus Prime would
be more concerned than usual, for "If the Decepticons acquire Japanese
technology..." :)

Ryan :>
--
(Founder of the new #tfu, and #aptenos)
"People who like penguins are nice people" -- Eric Bennett
(Fact: If my sig get over 10 lines, you can hit me)
My half-baked site: www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/8720
TF code: G++ AD/A OP/Q P212 ICQ:43171844

SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo Himself

unread,
May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
to
Avias wrote:

> SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo Himself wrote:
> >
> > Avias wrote:
> >
> > <snippety-snip>
> >
> > I think most of what you're saying is reasonable enough,
> > but the following isn't quite correct:
> >

> > > The Ten Crimes of G1
> > >

> > > 3. Instant Childhood Trauma: The Movie.
> > > It's pretty obvious that the guy who wrote the movie neither knew nor
> > > cared about Transformers.
> >

> > To what extent Ron Friedman *cared* about the Transformers
> > I shall not profess to know, but he certainly knew them! Every
> > single episode of the first two seasons credits him with Additional
> > Dialogue. If someone who contributed to 65 episodes is new to
> > Transformers, I haven't been a fan for 15 years.
>
> Really! I didn't know that. I was kinda nervous about posting the G1
> list anyway, as it's been so long since I've seen most of them I don't
> feel too comfortable about debating them. I knew I'd get something wrong
> :) But since some people here have made it their duty to jump on anyone
> who critisies BM without mentioning the problems in earlier shows...

Hope I didn't come off too critical to your post, Avias. It was, all
in all, a pretty well thought out one. :)

Anyway, as far as G1 goes, it's a little hard to criticize it in the same
way as Beast Wars or Beast Machines, because, obviously, it was
the beginning of it all. There's nothing to compare it to, really, apart
from other cartoons of the day, of course. So it doesn't seem right
to say "You may think Beast Machines had mistakes, but look at
G1 for some REAL bloopers!"

You didn't take that route, though, and I think that says a lot about
you. You rationally and intelligently pointed out some of the more
monumental inconsistencies instead of overanalyzing to the extreme.
Good on you. :)

> At any rate, I still don't think Freidman really cared about the
> characters. The way he offed the older characters was just *too* brutal
> and casual, IMO.

> > > 10. And the point of this episode was?


> > > Too many episodes had no real reason for existing. Episodes like
> > > "Kremzeek", "Suprise Party", "The Girl Who Loved Powerglide", and the
> > > like, that had no real point beyond taking up space in the season.
> >

> > I agree that "Kremzeek!" was pretty pointless, but at least
> > "Surprise Party" and "The Girl Who Loved Powerglid" put
> > the spotlight on specific characters - and I've always liked
> > that. :)
>
> I agree, the character-specific eps in G1 were great. But they're even
> better when they try to go beyond just kiddie-fare, like "The Master
> Builders" or "Auto-Beserk".

Those are among my very favourites, actually. I also love "The
Golden Lagoon" and "The Ultimate Weapon." :)

> > I have to say that I don't see the use in always pointing out
> > the mistakes and flaws, though. I personally think there are
> > more than enough good things about it to outweigh the bad
> > ones. How about looking at what's good for a change? :)
>
> I normally don't complain about the shows. I love G1 and BW, despite the
> occasional flaw, and even find BM to be at least watchable. Maybe not
> re-watchable, but still, it's decent. But some of these points have been
> sitting in the back of my mind for a while now, and with all the
> arguments going back and forth with little to back them up, I felt they
> needed to be said. :|

Hope I didn't put you down by saying what I did up there. I guess
it's just that so many people seem to care more about what's bad
about the show than what is good. But keep posting in this way,
whatever subject you choose, and you'll always have my respect. :)

maac...@my-deja.com

unread,
May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
to
: 8. I stubbed my toe! Decepticons RETREAT!

: For a fearsome army of warriors, the 'Cons sure ran away a lot. Every
: time the 'Bots got a slight advantage, the 'Cons would run away. It
gets
: rather repetitive.

I think this makes sense. On Earth, the Decepticons were definitely out-
numbered by the Autobots. Megatron would have had to switch his tactics
from head-on confrontations to guerilla warfare. In that case he
couldn't afford to lose any of his troops. So if he faced a situation
where the balance swung against him he would probably have preferred to
retreat and regroup than to risk destruction. And that probably is why
he kept Starscream around. He couldn't afford to lose his best aerial
fighter even if he was a treacherous scumbag.

maacprime

Scott E. Kampa

unread,
May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
to
In article <20000510032924...@ng-ba1.aol.com>,

zob...@aol.com (Zobovor) wrote:
> [Spoilers for Beast Machines seasons one and two.]
>
> Avias wrote:
>
> >S
> >S
> >U
> >S
> >M
> >A
> >
> >C
> >H
> >I
> >E
> >N
> >
> >A
> >T
> >E
> >
> >M
> >Y
> >
> >B
> >A
> >B
> >Y
> >!
>
> Am I the only one who didn't have a problem with Waspinator's
>explanation of how he got to Cybertron? (I'm talking about the
>*explanation,* not Waspy's presence in BM.)

I didn't. I've actually been thinking about writing a fanfic about
Waspy's couple of million year (or so) journey back to Cybertron. Just
imagine the hilarity that could ensue. :)

Scott, who was going to say more in this post, but was at a loss for
words...enjoy it folks! It doesn't happen every day. :)

--
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Me Grimlock say shut your faces."
-------------------------------------------------------------
Come visit Prime's Watercloset!
http://sekampa.tripod.com/index.html

GB

unread,
May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
to
Well, then, I'd suggest you go here, for the last six issues (Sorry James, but
your site is so good I wanna advertise it :) )

http://members.xoom.com/petrolfumes/index.html

GB

Redhaven1

unread,
May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
to
Wow, that was a great post. I have to say, I definitely agree with most of the
Beast Wars and Beast Machines stuff. Some of the G1 stuff hurt, but yeah, I
have to admit most of that was true as well. The only thing I really disagree
with is your take on the movie. The matrix and Unicron: sure they came out of
nowhere, but that gave the movie an element of myth and legend, I thought. An
unknown enemy from the dark regions of space, and an unvieled secret of the
Autobots. Kinda poetic. Also, I hated to see G1 characters killed off in the
movie, but I think it was done well. Not sloppy at all. The shuttle scene
definitely got me interested the first time watching it, and Optimus' death
scene was awesome. A fitting end for a hero. I thought Rodimus was a worthy
new leader. . . that is, until season three started. Okay, my rants are done.
Have a nice day.

-Steve

Túrin

unread,
May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
to
Avias wrote:
>
> Massive spoilers for Beast Machines, Beast Wars, and all that...

I hate to send a "me too" post, but this was a really good list. All
good points. Some I hadn't even thought of before, but you make a good
case.

Túrin

Radio Free Cybertron
http://rfcybertron.cjb.net/

TF Fanfic and Song Parody Archive
http://knoledge.org/mormegil/

Zobovor

unread,
May 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/11/00
to
SILVERBOLT - Mr. Vertigo Himself wrote:

>To what extent Ron Friedman *cared* about the Transformers
>I shall not profess to know, but he certainly knew them! Every
>single episode of the first two seasons credits him with Additional
>Dialogue. If someone who contributed to 65 episodes is new to
>Transformers, I haven't been a fan for 15 years.

Howdy, Rik. Welcome to Transfandom. :)

Seriously, Friedman may have been involved in the series, but we really have no
idea to what extent. It could have been his job to fill out the battle scenes
with witty reparteé to reach a length of 22 minutes, or they might have called
him in for scenes involving human military personnel. There's no way of
knowing.

There is, however, the fact that he never scripted an episode of Transformers.
Even the story editors churned out a script or two (I still love "A Prime
Problem"), but Friedman never wrote a full-fledged Transformers story before,
let alone a feature-length movie. I suspect that someone who had written for
the series before and knew the characters a little better might not have been
so casual in the dispatching of half a dozen of the most important Transformers
in the cartoon mythos...

>I'm wracking my brain for those clothes references <snip>

Stuff like this:

"SCOURGE (Sweep character) is bearded, fanged and ferocious looking and as soon
as he has been CREATED, he roars and stretches and an ARRAY OF SIMILAR
CREATURES - smaller and all wearing dark and matching uniforms - are INSTANTLY
CREATED from others behind him."

And...

"HOT ROD'S P.O.V. - THE QUINTESSONS

as we feature the Leader Quintesson who is taller and wears a different color
robe from the others..."

Granted, it's possible the characters simply hadn't been designed yet at this
stage so Friedman had no real idea of what they looked like yet, but you'd
think he would at least have been aware that robots don't wear uniforms. And
then there's stuff like Starscream wearing a cloak and crown, and Galvatron
using the phrase "Will anyone else attempt to fill his shoes?" in a rather
literal sense, since the script notes that Starscream's boots are supposed to
be all that remains of him...

>If the idea of the Matrix existed at that early stage, how come it
>was never even mentioned in any of the episodes that were
>produced alongside the production of the movie? Were none of
>the other writers given to know about the existence of the Matrix?

The theory that I've pieced together goes something like this: Hasbro called
Marvel and Sunbow together and gave them a general overview of where they
wanted the Transformers story to start out. Autobots and Decepticons come from
Cybertron, fought a war, crashed on Earth. The first issue of the comic and
first episode of the cartoon are more or less consistent. I suspect Hasbro
also wanted the Optimus Prime character to be powered by a Matrix, an
all-powerful talisman sort of thingy.

Where Marvel used the idea almost right away (as early as issue #4, I believe),
the cartoon didn't. I guess that after the phenomenal success of the first
season, the writers cooked up their Big Transformers Story and wanted to use
the concept of the Matrix as well.

I'm also guessing that the writers who worked on some of the late second-season
episodes *knew* about a lot of the events from the movie. I mean, the theaters
that Tracks drove by in "Make Tracks" that were showing "The Transformers: the
Movie" are evidence of that much. In retrospect, I wonder if events like
Megatron finally short-circuiting Starscream in "Hoist Goes Hollywood" and
Starscream's exile from the Decepticons in "Starscream's Brigade"/"The Revenge
of Bruticus" were meant to serve as a lead-in of sorts to Starscream's death at
the hands of Megatron/Galvatron.

The only thing wrong with this particular theory is why the Matrix was *never*
mentioned in any of the second-season episodes. Well, it's possible that the
writers were instructed to stay away from it as a plot device once the movie
had gone underway so there would be no plot confusion. Or maybe Hasbro wanted
to keep the Matrix some kind of big secret for the movie. Or maybe the writers
just didn't have the forethought to slip in casual references to the Matrix.
:)

ZobTrivia (5/10): Which of the nine planets in our solar system have not been
referenced in the Transformers U.S. TV shows?

(5/9): Gears was the first Autobot toy with blue eyes.

ZMFTS!
http://members.aol.com/zobovor/index.html

Túrin

unread,
May 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/11/00
to
Zobovor wrote:
> You know what irks me, in retrospect? We *could* have gotten a colossal
> cliffhanger ending for Beast Wars as was originally planned, since it turns out
> that Beast Machines was a direct continuation of it anyway.

I am VERY glad that this didn't happen. Beast Wars got wrapped up at
the end, and was *finished*. While watching BW, I can pretend that BM
doesn't exist. Really, would you want Bob and Larry to write part one
and Skir and Isenberg to write part 2? I don't think so!

Nemesis part 2

Megatron: And now, with the power of the Nemesis, and with the Maximals
destroyed, I will lay waste to this wretched planet, and ensure my
supremacy! Yesssss...

To be continued...

Beast Machines Part 1

Primal: Not so fast, Megatron!

Megatron: But... you're dead!

Primal: Wrong!

Primal throws some green goo on the Nemesis, destroying it, and thus
saving Earth.

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