Debate For G1 Cartoon Starscream/Megatron Strategy Quips

[Rodimus_2316]

In the G1 cartoon, Megatron and Starscream would have conflicting ideas on their strategies for the Decepticons to handle things. One would seem to be in the right at times, or the other, or perhaps it could go either way. This list I've compiled here (while rewatching my DVDs for a few weeks) focuses on those going either way, with all the vocal-quips between the two characters, where who was right we debate among ourselves. My hope is that we can eventually come to conclusions about which of the two were really in the right in each instance. Please respond to each one. Here we go...

**********
More Than Meets The Eye pt. 1:

On Nemesis:

Starscream: "Let's just blow them away! They've seen us!"
Megatron: "No. I want to know what they're after."
**********
More Than Meets The Eye pt. 2:

Decepticon Cave Base:

Starscream shoots laser-machine at top of mountain.

Megatron: "Starscream! What in the universe are you doing?"
Starscream: "Testing the energon cubes! They work!"
Megatron: "Of course they work."
Starscream: "You didn't know. You never tested them. I proved it."
Megatron: "You only proved your defective mentality! Now we need two strikes before we'll have enough energy to return to Cybertron."
Starscream: "What's the difference? There's plenty here for us."
Megatron: "The difference is TIME, you fool! You've set us back!"
**********
Divide & Conquer:

Underwater Decepticon Base:

Megatron: "Without Optimus Prime leading them, the Autobots will be helpless."
Starscream: "They why don't we attack them now, leader? It's usually good strategy."
Megatron: "We attack when I so order, Starscrcream."
**********
War of The Dinobots:

Underwater Decepticon Base:

Megatron: "Enough! I've seen enough! My finest warriors defeated by those primitive, pea-brain beasts. Revolting."
Starscream: "We were brilliant in battle, Megatron. The Dinobots overwhelmed us with sheer brute force."
Megatron: "Brilliant my boron-compressor! The Dinobots bested you because you had no strategy. But I have. We must probe the Dinobots for their weak points, and when we have found them...strike!"
**********
The Ultimate Doom pt. 1:

At Decepticon Generator Machine:

Skywarp: "I think Megatron's plan was brilliant."
Starscream: "And I say the diversionary attack on the solar-plant was a waste of energy!"
**********
(My favorite and best example, IMO)

The Ultimate Doom pt. 2:

Outside on Earth:

Starscream: "What's your excuse, Megatron? You let the enemy get away! You--"

Backhanded by Megatron. Starscream coughs, with Megatron holding him by the neck.

Megatron: "Cross me again, Starscream, and I will reduce you to titanium fragments."
Starscream: "But we had the Autobots disoriented. We could have eliminated them."
Megatron: "We'll do that at our leisure, when our more important work is done."

Later, at Decepticon Underwater Base:

Starscream (sarcasm): Your plan was brilliant, Megatron. We collect millions of energon cubes, but they're all worthless because we can't get them to Cybertron."
**********
The Ultimate Doom pt. 3:

Decepticon Energy Collector:

Megatron: "Starscream, install this generator."
Starscream: "A waste of time, Megatron! Your plan is unworkable."

Megatron throws large generator component at him, and he catches.

Megatron: "I said install it! Now!"
**********
Dinobot Island pt. 2:

On Island:

Megatron: "More energon cubes! More, I say!"
Starscream: "NO! We have violated this island with cataclysmic results. We must leave, now, before the entire island explodes."
Megatron: "I don't care if the entire Earth explodes. We can always relocate."
**********
Traitor:

Experimental Energy Research Laboratory:

Starscream: "And these electro-cells will make a wonderful gift for Megatron.

He grabs device.

Scientist: "No, stop! They could detonate without warning!"

Megatron arrives.

Megatron: "Stand back at once, Starscream."
Starscream: "Megatron!"
Megatron: "The electro-cells are are too ticklish to withstand your heavy-handed-mauling. I want to preserve these until I choose to use them to destroy the Autobots."
**********
Enter The Nightbird:

Decepticon Temporary Base (Concerning Nightbird):

Starscream: "Eh, she'll burn out fast. After the way Bombshell overtourqued(sp?) her circuits."
Bombshell: "Who asked you, nitro-nose!"
Megatron: "Nigthbird won't burn out until she returns with the computer chip we need. It's all been programmed."
Starscream: "If she returns, you mean. She's not so hot."
Megatron: "She's hot enough to replace you, whenever I choose."

Later, at same base:

Megatron watching Nightbird on monitor:

Megatron: "Terrific! (evil laughter) Yes, you're definitely on my replacement list, Starscream. She's everything I've always wanted."
Starscream: "Replace ME?! Never!"
**********
A Prime Problem:

Decepticon Cave Base:

Starscream: "The Autobots are gloriously confused! We shall crush them once and for all!"
Megatron: "Not yet. They must be willing to follow my Prime clone into that crevice."
**********
Atlantis, Arise!:

Washington DC:

Nergil aiming at Grimlock and Megatron.

Sub-Atlantican General: "My lord, fire!"
Nergill: "I don't have a clear shot. Better zap them both."

About to pull trigger, SS comes up from behind, knocks him down, taking his gun.

Starscream: "You treacherous hydro-weasel! Nergill is now our enemy!"
Spike (inside Bumblebee and approaching): "Ok Bumblebee...NOW!"

Jumps out as Bumblebee and Wheeljack transform and ram Starscream, knocking the gun out of his hand, and into Grimlock's.

Grimlock: "Not bad for Autobots. Now watch Grimlock!"

He destroys the gun, freeing Prime and the others, then it explodes.

Megatron (to Starscream): "Starscream! See what you've done, you driveling dirt-bucket!"
**********
The Master Builders:

Underwater Decepticon Base:

Starscream and Megatron watch Constructicons with Hoist and Grapple on monitor.

Starscream: "Those traitors should be DEconstructed at once, mighty Megatron."
Megatron: "Leave them to me, Starscream."
**********
The Insecticon Syndrome

While Flying:

Megatron: "The Insecticons have done well."
Starscream: "Yes, perhaps THEY should lead us."
Megatron: "You test my patience, Starscream."
**********
Megatron's Master Plan pt. 2:

At Decepticon Day Parade:

Starscream: "Why waste time? Let's take the city now."
Megatron: "I have my reasons, which are far beyond your meager-understanding."
**********
Desertion of The Dinobots:

Outside on Earth:

Soundwave: "Ultra-plane, completed Megatron."
Starscream: "I'll blast it to dust!"

Megatron lowers his arm.

Megatron: "No. We must be more discreet."

Holds up a mechanical device, giving it to Starscream.

Megatron: "Use this."
Starscream: "Since has discretion mattered to us? Perhaps you're getting weak, Megatron!"

Starscream does as ordered.

At Human Facility:

Megatron: "Surrender the fighter blueprints, and we will not hurt you."
Starscream: "No reason to be soft with the flesh-creatures."

Picks up one, and aims arm-gun at him.

Starscream: "Give us the plans or be vaporized!"

Human points in direction of the plans.

Airport Hanger:

Megatron: "We must return to the lab and destroy those plans."
Starscream: "If you hadn't retreated in the first place..."

Dinobots Break In:

Starscream (sarcasm) : "So much for your 'secret hideout,' Megatron."
**********
The Core:

New Underground Decepticon HQ:

Megatron: "Well, it's about time, Scavenger. Your sensors should have detected a potential fissure in that rock before drilling began. We could have been blown to oblivion. Mixmaster, take Scavenger to the surface and check out his geologic analyzer circuits."
Starscream: "We were fortunate this time, Megatron. Next time your wild scheme to tap the Earth's core could destroy us all."
Megatron: "But if I succeed, Starscream, and I will, we Decepticons will possess an energy source richer than any in the galaxy. The molten might of this planet itself."

Later, Outside-Said Base:

Autobots being pulled up over mountainside. Starscream aims a gun at them.

Starscream: "It's like shooting dyna-metal ducks in a beryllium-barrel. And I mean dead-ducks. Perfect, vengeance at last."

Megatron lowers Starscream's gun.

Megatron: "Let them go."
Starscream: "What?! Traitor!"
Megatron: "Nonsense. Why destroy a paltry six Autobots when we can eliminate them all...forever! They think they're going to gain control over Devastator, but I have other plans."

A Bit Later, Waiting For Autobots:

Starscream: "Some strategy. Can't we do something more clever than to stand here and wait?"
Megatron: "Silence! Stand by, and...FIRE!"

Back In Underground Base:

Starscream: "Your strategy eludes me, Megatron. We're prisoners, and we've lost our most valuable asset."
Megatron: "We've lost nothing. I allowed the Autobots to believe Devastator was in their power. But...with this electronic-disruptor, I can nullify their control, and bring Devastator back under my command. And, at the moment they least expect it..."
Starscream: "Devastator will turn on them and destroy them all."
**********
The Golden Lagoon:

Decepticon Underwater Base:

Megatron: "Decepticons! Our moment of total victory over the Autobots is here!"
Starscream: "Cut the allration(sp?), Megatron. We've already heard it."
Skywarp: "Yeah, let's talk about victory after we've got it."
**********
The Search for Alpha Trion:

Nearing Fembots' Base:

Starscream: "Remember why we're here. To capture Elita-One, at all costs. Now, where's the entrance?"
Ramjet: "Maybe Shockwave made a mistake in his calculations?"
Starscream: "Negative. The female Autobots are obviously quite clever, but they will not outsmart me. Rumble, activate your pile-driver arms and shake the hens out of their nest."
Rumble: "Megatron's orders were to find the Female Autobots and capture Elita-One, not tear up the whole planet."
Starscream: "When Megatron is not with us, I am in charge, and I order you to obey me."
**********
Prime Target:

Decepticon Underwater Base:

Megatron: "Triplechangers."
Blitzwing: "Yes, Megatron."
Astrotrain: "Awaiting your orders."
Megatron: "To you I entrust the ultimate mission: You will make contact with this fearless hunter. With his help, we can finish off the Autobots once and for all."
Starscream: "What's the matter, Megatron? Afraid to do it yourself?"
**********
Hoist Goes Hollywood:

Film Lot Hanger:

Megatron: "Well, Starscream, are you sure you got ALL of the film with the Decepticons in it?"
Starscream: "Of course. I personally oversaw the operation."
Soundwave: "Corrrection. The negative is still missing."
Starscream: "How-How was I to know? I did what you told me, I followed your orders..."
Megatron: "I warned you, Starscream."
Starscream: "Wait, why not just level the studio; destroying all the prints?"

Megatron lifts Starscream into the air.

Megatron: "I've had enough of you and your ideas."
Starscream: "Megatron, don't, don't!"

He throws him, and he lands on his back.

Starscream: "I'm too valuable to--"

Makes deactivation noises as Megatron rips out some of his circuits.

Megatron (to other Decepticons): "Now get those Autobots out of the way, and get that negative, and I want it NOW!"
**********
Masquerade:

Underwater Decepticon Base:

Megatron: "You understand your orders. You five Stunticons will secure the three components I need."
Starscream: "You're a fool, Megatron! You can't trust those reckless Stunticons with such an important mission!"
Megatron: "Quiet, Starscream. Their unique transformation powers make them the perfect choice."
**********
Cosmic Rust:

Old Autobot Rust Planet:

Starscream moves to controls.

Megatron: "Starscream! Keep your gruddy fingers off that. It could be a booby trap!"
Starscream: "What trap? This is a prehistoric communication device, you uneducated dolt!"
**********
Kremzeek!:

Decepticon Constructed Energy-Magnet Tower:

Megatron: "Prepare for a longer-range test."
Starscream: "Tests, tests, tests! Let's light this candle!"
**********
Starscream's Brigade:

Decepticon Underwater Base:

Starscream: "Shockwave THIS! Shockwave THAT! All I ever hear about is how great Shockwave is!"
Megatron: "Shockwave is an ideal soldier. He's both humble and respectful."
Starscream: Shockwave has much to be humble about. Who can respect a leader who cannot so much as defeat the Autobots?!"
Megatron: "You'll never understand, Starscream. You lack the ability to see your own faults."
**********
B.O.T.:

Underwater Decepticon Base:

Starscream: "If you hadn't spent so much time on the simulation, Megatron, maybe we'd know if your device really worked."
Megatron: "Silence, Starscream! Once we have blasted the Earth's moon out of orbit, we will be able to control the tides with Soundwave's new device. Then we will flood the canyon, creating a nearly limitless power."
**********
Transformers: The Movie:

After Autobot Shuttle is Hijacked:

Megatron: "This was almost too easy, Starscream."
Starscream: "Much easier, almighty Megatron, than attacking the real threat: The Autobots' moon base!"
Megatron: "You're a idiot, Starscream. When we slip by their early-warning systems in their own shuttle, and destroy Autobot City, the Autobots will be vanquished forever!"
**********
(I suppose this counts too)

Starscream's Ghost:

At Decepticon Charr Base:

Galvatron: "STARSCREAM! I shall enjoy destroying you even more this time than the last."
Starscream's Ghost: "Destroying me as a great disservice to all Decepticons."
**********



Please LMK your thoughts on these.

Also, Zobovor, back when the ReGenOne comic was out, and Rodimus Prime premiered and said "Hmmm." more than once, we were trying to recall if it was taken from any G1 cartoon season 3 eps with the character. I was thinking, when I have time, of going through those eps too and see which ones have the line by him, if any, and I'll make a post about it.



- Rodimus_2316

[Zobovor]

On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 6:02:01 PM UTC-7, Rodimus_2316 wrote:

> In the G1 cartoon, Megatron and Starscream would have conflicting ideas on
> their strategies for the Decepticons to handle things.

Wow, what a cool idea for a discussion. I love analyzing the G1 cartoon.

> Starscream: "Let's just blow them away! They've seen us!"
> Megatron: "No. I want to know what they're after."

This is actually kind of an odd statement from Megatron, since Laserbeak had reported earlier pretty much exactly what they're after. He even says, "If there's a new source of energy to be found, the Decepticons must find it first." So, he already knew it was an energy-scouting mission. So, let's assume that what he actually means here is that he wants to know what energy source, specifically, they may be targeting.

I would say Megatron's idea makes the most sense. If the Autobots were onto the existence of a new source of energy, it would have behooved the Decepticons to learn of it.

> Megatron: "Starscream! What in the universe are you doing?"
> Starscream: "Testing the energon cubes! They work!"
> Megatron: "Of course they work."
> Starscream: "You didn't know. You never tested them. I proved it."

I think the only reason Starscream was "testing" the energy was to undermine Megatron's efforts. He wraps it up in the guise of a scientific test, but its only purpose was to make Megatron look bad.

> Megatron: "Without Optimus Prime leading them, the Autobots will be
> helpless."
> Starscream: "They why don't we attack them now, leader? It's usually good
> strategy."
> Megatron: "We attack when I so order, Starscrcream."

Now, this is an example of Megatron showing Starscream who's boss. He's putting Starscream in his place by delaying the attack. Starscream's technically in the right.

> Starscream: "We were brilliant in battle, Megatron. The Dinobots overwhelmed
> us with sheer brute force."
> Megatron: "Brilliant my boron-compressor! The Dinobots bested you because
> you had no strategy.

This is totally revisionist history on the part of Megatron. He says "YOU were defeated" and "YOU had no strategy," but he was there on the battlefield, too. Where was his strategy then? (Not that I would necessarily expect any Decepticon to have a strategy against something like the Dinobots during their very first encounter with them. In this case, though, Megatron is not really being fair or accurate.)

> Skywarp: "I think Megatron's plan was brilliant."
> Starscream: "And I say the diversionary attack on the solar-plant was a waste
> of energy!"

The only reason Megatron was trying to divert the Autobots was so he could capture Sparkplug specifically, right? There were millions of freely-available humans to put under hypno-chip control. There was no real reason to go after Sparkplug, specifically, except perhaps as an attempt to undermine Autobot morale. It actually backfired and provided the impetus for them to free Sparkplug and the other humans, though. Overall, it was a bad move. So, points for Starscream this time.

> Starscream: "But we had the Autobots disoriented. We could have eliminated
> them."
> Megatron: "We'll do that at our leisure, when our more important work is
> done."

Starscream was wildly insubordinate in this episode. You don't approach your commanding officer and begin a conversation with, "What is your excuse?!" Even if he'd toned down his approach, though, the energy-collection had to take precedence. Megatron wins this round.

> Starscream (sarcasm): Your plan was brilliant, Megatron. We collect millions
> of energon cubes, but they're all worthless because we can't get them to
> Cybertron."

Starscream kind of has a point. It just seems like they were using Skywarp to transport a handful of cubes in his jet cockpit. It would have taken forever to ship them all to Cybertron that way!

> Megatron: "Starscream, install this generator."
> Starscream: "A waste of time, Megatron! Your plan is unworkable."

Starscream was just being petulant. The energy collection was a proven success.

> Starscream: "NO! We have violated this island with cataclysmic results. We
> must leave, now, before the entire island explodes."
> Megatron: "I don't care if the entire Earth explodes. We can always
> relocate."

This is a continuation of an argument from "Dinobot Island" part 1, isn't it? When Megatron dismisses Starscream's concerns as "scientific gobbledegook"? The problem is that Starscream has a background in science, but rather than entertaining the idea that Starscream might know some things that Megatron does not, he's all too quick to dismiss it, just because it's Starscream that it's coming from. We know Starscream was right in this instance.

> Starscream: "And these electro-cells will make a wonderful gift for Megatron.

> Megatron: "The electro-cells are are too ticklish to withstand your heavy-
> handed-mauling."

It's difficult for me to believe that Starscream was completely unaware of the nature of the electro-cells. There's a later scene where Megatron has to knock Starscream out of the way and spray them with nitrogen gas just to stabilize them. I think Starscream was trying to sabotage Megatron's efforts again.

> Starscream: "Eh, she'll burn out fast. After the way Bombshell overtourqued

> her circuits."

> Megatron: "Nigthbird won't burn out until she returns with the computer chip
> we need. It's all been programmed."

There were a lot of interesting dynamics in this episode. Megatron was clearly enamored with Nightbird, though I don't think he was ever really serious about using her to replace Starscream. (Even Megatron admits that Nightbird will eventually "burn out"; the only difference is he believes she will complete the mission first.) So, in turn, Starscream was needling Megatron about her inability to perform, knowing it would irritate him. I think what it came right down to was, sexy ninja or not, she was an Earth robot and couldn't possibly last for very long. I'd say Screamer was on the money.

> Starscream: "The Autobots are gloriously confused! We shall crush them once
> and for all!"
> Megatron: "Not yet. They must be willing to follow my Prime clone into that
> crevice."

Starscream was jumping the gun. If they had the Prime clone open fire at this point, they might have been able to pick off a handful of Autobots, but then the game would be up. Megatron's way makes more sense.

> Starscream: "You treacherous hydro-weasel! Nergill is now our enemy!"

> Megatron: "Starscream! See what you've done, you driveling
> dirt-bucket!"

Megatron was working with incomplete information. Nergil was pretty clearly and obviously defying the Decepticons, but Starscream was the only one who saw it with his own eyes.

> Starscream: "Those traitors should be DEconstructed at once, mighty
> Megatron."
> Megatron: "Leave them to me, Starscream."

You mentioned this episode the other day, didn't you? It's really hard to say whether or not Scrapper was planning to betray Grapple and Hoist from the start, or whether he invented that story for Megatron's benefit after being caught scheming. Killing them right away seems a bit harsh, though. Plus, they would lose Devastator, which is a huge asset. Megatron's more cautious approach seems the better way to go.

> Megatron: "The Insecticons have done well."
> Starscream: "Yes, perhaps THEY should lead us."

This is just Starscream needling Megatron. He's not serious.

> Starscream: "Why waste time? Let's take the city now."
> Megatron: "I have my reasons, which are far beyond your meager-
> understanding."

Megatron was just looking to embarrass Berger in public. That's the only reason they waited. He may have found it personally satisfying, but it was poor strategy, and may have given the Autobots the time they needed to return in time and stop the Decepticons. Starscream was right.

> Starscream: "I'll blast it to dust!"

> Megatron: "No. We must be more discreet."

Sometimes I think the dynamic between Megatron and Starscream is as follows: One of them says something, and then the other says the exact opposite, just to be contrary. I think this was one of those times. What's funny is that the ultra-plane ended up exploding anyway. How is that discreet?

> Megatron: "Surrender the fighter blueprints, and we will not hurt you."
> Starscream: "No reason to be soft with the flesh-creatures."

Here's another one. The threat is implied in Megatron's words ("DON'T surrender the blueprints and we WILL hurt you") but Starscream twisted the situation around for a chance at one-upmanship.

> Megatron: "We must return to the lab and destroy those plans."
> Starscream: "If you hadn't retreated in the first place..."

Megatron never actually called the retreat, though. This one doesn't count!

> Starscream: "We were fortunate this time, Megatron. Next time your wild
> scheme to tap the Earth's core could destroy us all."

Well, by episode's end, we kind of know Starscream was right about this the whole time.

> Megatron: "Let them go."
> Starscream: "What?! Traitor!"

Clearly, Megatron is not a traitor. He's tickled by the idea of destroying all the Autobots in one fell swoop. If Starscream had blasted the Autobots at this moment, then Megatron would never have had his chance to disrupt their control over Devastator. Of course, that didn't go all that well, either. It's a toss-up.

> Starscream: "Some strategy. Can't we do something more clever than to stand
> here and wait?"
> Megatron: "Silence! Stand by, and...FIRE!"

This is Megatron basically going, "We are going to CONTINUE to wait a moment longer, just to piss Starscream off. Okay, now we're doing waiting. Now we can shoot them."

> Starscream: "Your strategy eludes me, Megatron. We're prisoners, and we've
> lost our most valuable asset."
> Megatron: "We've lost nothing. I allowed the Autobots to believe Devastator
> was in their power."

Megatron was wrong about drilling into the Earth, but he was right about pretty much everything else in this episode.

> Megatron: "Decepticons! Our moment of total victory over the Autobots is
> here!"

> Starscream: "Cut the oration, Megatron. We've already heard it."

> Skywarp: "Yeah, let's talk about victory after we've got it."

Odd that Skywarp chimed in this time, isn't it? He usually doesn't espouse anti-Megatron opinions. Anyway, I think Megatron is just being a good leader here and rallying the troops with an inspirational pre-battle speech, but Starscream's kind of right.

> Rumble: "Megatron's orders were to find the Female Autobots and capture Elita-
> One, not tear up the whole planet."
> Starscream: "When Megatron is not with us, I am in charge, and I order you to
> obey me."

Megatron put Starscream in charge of the mission for a reason. If he'd wanted to directly oversee the mission, he'd have been there himself. Starscream had the authority to do what he felt he needed to. Starscream was entirely in the right.

> Megatron: "To you I entrust the ultimate mission: You will make contact with
> this fearless hunter. With his help, we can finish off the Autobots once and
> for all."
> Starscream: "What's the matter, Megatron? Afraid to do it yourself?"

Starscream just calls 'em like he sees 'em. And guess what? The Triple Changers got captured just like everybody else!

> Megatron: "Well, Starscream, are you sure you got ALL of the film with the
> Decepticons in it?"
> Starscream: "Of course. I personally oversaw the operation."
> Soundwave: "Corrrection. The negative is still missing."
> Starscream: "How-How was I to know? I did what you told me, I followed your
> orders..."

This is such an atypical confrontation that I don't know how to analyze it. Megatron never really committed such grievous physical violence against Starscream like he did in this episode. The mission to recover Wheeljack's secret piece of junk wasn't really a vital moment in the Decepticon campaign, so I don't know why Megatron reacted as strongly as he did. In any event, Starscream failed in his assignment. He didn't recover all the footage like he was supposed to.

> Starscream: "You're a fool, Megatron! You can't trust those reckless
> Stunticons with such an important mission!"
> Megatron: "Quiet, Starscream. Their unique transformation powers make them
> the perfect choice."

This is only the beginning of their confrontations during this episode, though. Starscream basically spends the entire episode pointing out that there's something wrong with the fake Stunticons, and guess what? Fake Stunticons were fake! Big win for Starscream. Megatron was especially ignorant in this episode.


> Megatron: "Starscream! Keep your grubby fingers off that. It could be a

> booby trap!"
> Starscream: "What trap? This is a prehistoric communication device, you
> uneducated dolt!"

Man, this is a lot of petty Megatron-and-Starscream bickering to digest all at once. Usually I don't have huge servings of it like this.

I think this is just another example of Starscream doing something and Megatron telling him not to, just because it's Starscream who's doing it. If Soundwave had been the one fiddling with the controls, Megatron wouldn't have questioned it.

> Megatron: "Prepare for a longer-range test."
> Starscream: "Tests, tests, tests! Let's light this candle!"

This is like the thing with testing the energon cubes, only in reverse. If they used the energy magnet once and it worked, further testing should not be necessary.

> Megatron: "You'll never understand, Starscream. You lack the ability to see
> your own faults."

This is actually a really accurate insight into Starscream's behavior. He really is genuinely unable to perceive any of his own shortcomings. He's smart (but not infallible), fast and maneuverable (but not unstoppable), and powerful (but not indestructible). He's so vain, he probably thinks this song is about him.

> Starscream: "If you hadn't spent so much time on the simulation, Megatron,
> maybe we'd know if your device really worked."

See? When it's Starscream's idea to test something, Megatron hates wasting time and energy on tests. When it's Megatron's idea, then Starscream thinks it's a waste of time.

> Megatron: "This was almost too easy, Starscream."
> Starscream: "Much easier, almighty Megatron, than attacking the real threat:
> The Autobots' moon base!"
> Megatron: "You're a idiot, Starscream. When we slip by their early-warning
> systems in their own shuttle, and destroy Autobot City, the Autobots will be
> vanquished forever!"

Perhaps the most famous of the Megatron/Starscream arguments. Did Starscream seriously think they were going to use the stolen shuttle for a head-on assault on the Moon Base? He kind of is an idiot sometimes.

> Galvatron: "STARSCREAM! I shall enjoy destroying you even more this time
> than the last."

> Starscream's Ghost: "Destroying me was a great disservice to all
> Decepticons."

This is a matter of opinion, not an argument over strategy. Besides, you can't take anything that Galvatron says seriously.

So, by my count, we have 31 valid and legitimate arguments (you listed a few more but I think at least a couple of them arguably don't "really" count). Of these clashes over strategy, Megatron was clearly in the right at least 13 times, but Starscream was correct 18 times. Obviously, some of the arguments are a lot more cut-and-dried than others. Many of them could go the other way. Still, it's interesting. Starscream's got this reputation for being a dunderhead, at least in Megatron's eyes, when in fact he's right more often than not!


Zob (veddy interestink)

[Rodimus_2316]

My impression was he was referencing a fight that wasn't shown before, and Megatron was not there for it. Am I wrong?

> > Skywarp: "I think Megatron's plan was brilliant."
> > Starscream: "And I say the diversionary attack on the solar-plant was a waste
> > of energy!"
>
> The only reason Megatron was trying to divert the Autobots was so he could capture Sparkplug specifically, right? There were millions of freely-available humans to put under hypno-chip control. There was no real reason to go after Sparkplug, specifically, except perhaps as an attempt to undermine Autobot morale. It actually backfired and provided the impetus for them to free Sparkplug and the other humans, though. Overall, it was a bad move. So, points for Starscream this time.
>
> > Starscream: "But we had the Autobots disoriented. We could have eliminated
> > them."
> > Megatron: "We'll do that at our leisure, when our more important work is
> > done."
>
> Starscream was wildly insubordinate in this episode. You don't approach your commanding officer and begin a conversation with, "What is your excuse?!" Even if he'd toned down his approach, though, the energy-collection had to take precedence. Megatron wins this round.
>
> > Starscream (sarcasm): Your plan was brilliant, Megatron. We collect millions
> > of energon cubes, but they're all worthless because we can't get them to
> > Cybertron."
>
> Starscream kind of has a point. It just seems like they were using Skywarp to transport a handful of cubes in his jet cockpit. It would have taken forever to ship them all to Cybertron that way!
>
> > Megatron: "Starscream, install this generator."
> > Starscream: "A waste of time, Megatron! Your plan is unworkable."
>
> Starscream was just being petulant. The energy collection was a proven success.
>
> > Starscream: "NO! We have violated this island with cataclysmic results. We
> > must leave, now, before the entire island explodes."
> > Megatron: "I don't care if the entire Earth explodes. We can always
> > relocate."
>
> This is a continuation of an argument from "Dinobot Island" part 1, isn't it? When Megatron dismisses Starscream's concerns as "scientific gobbledegook"? The problem is that Starscream has a background in science, but rather than entertaining the idea that Starscream might know some things that Megatron does not, he's all too quick to dismiss it, just because it's Starscream that it's coming from. We know Starscream was right in this instance.

Yeah, pt. 1 (or also pt. 2) had that line by Starscream about upsetting the nature of the island, or somesuch thing, and Megatron said his "scientific gobbledegook" line, which is why I didn't post it, but here, as Megs says now that they can relocate, I posted at it seemed more "balanced".

> > Starscream: "And these electro-cells will make a wonderful gift for Megatron.
> > Megatron: "The electro-cells are are too ticklish to withstand your heavy-
> > handed-mauling."
>
> It's difficult for me to believe that Starscream was completely unaware of the nature of the electro-cells. There's a later scene where Megatron has to knock Starscream out of the way and spray them with nitrogen gas just to stabilize them. I think Starscream was trying to sabotage Megatron's efforts again.
>
> > Starscream: "Eh, she'll burn out fast. After the way Bombshell overtourqued
> > her circuits."
> > Megatron: "Nigthbird won't burn out until she returns with the computer chip
> > we need. It's all been programmed."
>
> There were a lot of interesting dynamics in this episode. Megatron was clearly enamored with Nightbird, though I don't think he was ever really serious about using her to replace Starscream. (Even Megatron admits that Nightbird will eventually "burn out"; the only difference is he believes she will complete the mission first.) So, in turn, Starscream was needling Megatron about her inability to perform, knowing it would irritate him. I think what it came right down to was, sexy ninja or not, she was an Earth robot and couldn't possibly last for very long. I'd say Screamer was on the money.
>
> > Starscream: "The Autobots are gloriously confused! We shall crush them once
> > and for all!"
> > Megatron: "Not yet. They must be willing to follow my Prime clone into that
> > crevice."
>
> Starscream was jumping the gun. If they had the Prime clone open fire at this point, they might have been able to pick off a handful of Autobots, but then the game would be up. Megatron's way makes more sense.
>
> > Starscream: "You treacherous hydro-weasel! Nergill is now our enemy!"
> > Megatron: "Starscream! See what you've done, you driveling
> > dirt-bucket!"
>
> Megatron was working with incomplete information. Nergil was pretty clearly and obviously defying the Decepticons, but Starscream was the only one who saw it with his own eyes.
>
> > Starscream: "Those traitors should be DEconstructed at once, mighty
> > Megatron."
> > Megatron: "Leave them to me, Starscream."
>
> You mentioned this episode the other day, didn't you? It's really hard to say whether or not Scrapper was planning to betray Grapple and Hoist from the start, or whether he invented that story for Megatron's benefit after being caught scheming. Killing them right away seems a bit harsh, though. Plus, they would lose Devastator, which is a huge asset. Megatron's more cautious approach seems the better way to go.

Yeah, I did say that first part previously, I was just wondering here if Starscream or Megatron were right in their treating the Constructicons for their possible "betrayal" when they returned to base, which you explained.

> > Megatron: "The Insecticons have done well."
> > Starscream: "Yes, perhaps THEY should lead us."
>
> This is just Starscream needling Megatron. He's not serious.
>
> > Starscream: "Why waste time? Let's take the city now."
> > Megatron: "I have my reasons, which are far beyond your meager-
> > understanding."
>
> Megatron was just looking to embarrass Berger in public. That's the only reason they waited. He may have found it personally satisfying, but it was poor strategy, and may have given the Autobots the time they needed to return in time and stop the Decepticons. Starscream was right.

Hadn't the Autobot ship gotten destroyed, and the Autobots now being led into the sun by Cosmos' control from Teletraan-1, by this time? I can't recall for sure. The only reason Cosmos was able to return the Autobots was when Thrust destroyed Teletraan-1, and freed Cosmos of it's control.

> > Starscream: "I'll blast it to dust!"
> > Megatron: "No. We must be more discreet."
>
> Sometimes I think the dynamic between Megatron and Starscream is as follows: One of them says something, and then the other says the exact opposite, just to be contrary. I think this was one of those times. What's funny is that the ultra-plane ended up exploding anyway. How is that discreet?
>
> > Megatron: "Surrender the fighter blueprints, and we will not hurt you."
> > Starscream: "No reason to be soft with the flesh-creatures."
>
> Here's another one. The threat is implied in Megatron's words ("DON'T surrender the blueprints and we WILL hurt you") but Starscream twisted the situation around for a chance at one-upmanship.
>
> > Megatron: "We must return to the lab and destroy those plans."
> > Starscream: "If you hadn't retreated in the first place..."
>
> Megatron never actually called the retreat, though. This one doesn't count!

Well, he did leave, which is why I posted this, but I see what you mean now.

> > Starscream: "We were fortunate this time, Megatron. Next time your wild
> > scheme to tap the Earth's core could destroy us all."
>
> Well, by episode's end, we kind of know Starscream was right about this the whole time.

True. The Decepticons couldn't flee to Cybertron on the space-bridge as the out-of-control Devastator destroyed the area under it.

> > Megatron: "Let them go."
> > Starscream: "What?! Traitor!"
>
> Clearly, Megatron is not a traitor. He's tickled by the idea of destroying all the Autobots in one fell swoop. If Starscream had blasted the Autobots at this moment, then Megatron would never have had his chance to disrupt their control over Devastator. Of course, that didn't go all that well, either. It's a toss-up.

I didn't mean to say he was a traitor. I was just wondering which was right in dealing with the Autobots, and you touched on that here.

I think Megatron damaged Starscream like that because he was getting fed up with him, but I could be wrong. And Starscream did suggest leveling-the-studio, which might have been the simplest answer.

> > Starscream: "You're a fool, Megatron! You can't trust those reckless
> > Stunticons with such an important mission!"
> > Megatron: "Quiet, Starscream. Their unique transformation powers make them
> > the perfect choice."
>
> This is only the beginning of their confrontations during this episode, though. Starscream basically spends the entire episode pointing out that there's something wrong with the fake Stunticons, and guess what? Fake Stunticons were fake! Big win for Starscream. Megatron was especially ignorant in this episode.

But how did Starscream know? And I didn't include his dialog on that since he was somehow right about the "Stunticons" being fake. What I was trying to debate was which was right about the Stunticons being right for the mission.

> > Megatron: "Starscream! Keep your grubby fingers off that. It could be a
> > booby trap!"
> > Starscream: "What trap? This is a prehistoric communication device, you
> > uneducated dolt!"
>
> Man, this is a lot of petty Megatron-and-Starscream bickering to digest all at once. Usually I don't have huge servings of it like this.
>
> I think this is just another example of Starscream doing something and Megatron telling him not to, just because it's Starscream who's doing it. If Soundwave had been the one fiddling with the controls, Megatron wouldn't have questioned it.
>
> > Megatron: "Prepare for a longer-range test."
> > Starscream: "Tests, tests, tests! Let's light this candle!"
>
> This is like the thing with testing the energon cubes, only in reverse. If they used the energy magnet once and it worked, further testing should not be necessary.
>
> > Megatron: "You'll never understand, Starscream. You lack the ability to see
> > your own faults."
>
> This is actually a really accurate insight into Starscream's behavior. He really is genuinely unable to perceive any of his own shortcomings. He's smart (but not infallible), fast and maneuverable (but not unstoppable), and powerful (but not indestructible). He's so vain, he probably thinks this song is about him.

What about the Shockwave debate stuff between them, as well?

> > Starscream: "If you hadn't spent so much time on the simulation, Megatron,
> > maybe we'd know if your device really worked."
>
> See? When it's Starscream's idea to test something, Megatron hates wasting time and energy on tests. When it's Megatron's idea, then Starscream thinks it's a waste of time.
>
> > Megatron: "This was almost too easy, Starscream."
> > Starscream: "Much easier, almighty Megatron, than attacking the real threat:
> > The Autobots' moon base!"
> > Megatron: "You're a idiot, Starscream. When we slip by their early-warning
> > systems in their own shuttle, and destroy Autobot City, the Autobots will be
> > vanquished forever!"
>
> Perhaps the most famous of the Megatron/Starscream arguments. Did Starscream seriously think they were going to use the stolen shuttle for a head-on assault on the Moon Base? He kind of is an idiot sometimes.

My impression was that Starscream felt the takover of the shuttle a bad idea, and that they should all just eliminate the moon base(s) instead.

> > Galvatron: "STARSCREAM! I shall enjoy destroying you even more this time
> > than the last."
> > Starscream's Ghost: "Destroying me was a great disservice to all
> > Decepticons."
>
> This is a matter of opinion, not an argument over strategy. Besides, you can't take anything that Galvatron says seriously.
>
> So, by my count, we have 31 valid and legitimate arguments (you listed a few more but I think at least a couple of them arguably don't "really" count). Of these clashes over strategy, Megatron was clearly in the right at least 13 times, but Starscream was correct 18 times. Obviously, some of the arguments are a lot more cut-and-dried than others. Many of them could go the other way. Still, it's interesting. Starscream's got this reputation for being a dunderhead, at least in Megatron's eyes, when in fact he's right more often than not!
>
>
> Zob (veddy interestink)

- Rodimus_2316

[Zobovor]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 6:33:25 PM UTC-7, Rodimus_2316 wrote:

> My impression was he was referencing a fight that wasn't shown before, and
> Megatron was not there for it. Am I wrong?

I had always thought they were referring to the battle from "S.O.S. Dinobots." I suppose there could have been a second off-screen encounter, but it really sounds like they're talking about the only encounter they've had with the Dinobots up to this point.

> Hadn't the Autobot ship gotten destroyed, and the Autobots now being led into
> the sun by Cosmos' control from Teletraan-1, by this time?

Right, but Megatron didn't know for sure that the Autobots were destroyed. Had he not been so busy grandstanding and showing the world what a loser Berger was on national television, maybe he could have garnered a foothold on the city, and the Autobots would not have repelled him so easily.

> I think Megatron damaged Starscream like that because he was getting fed up

> with him, but I could be wrong. And Starscream did suggest leveling the

> studio, which might have been the simplest answer.

It's quite possible Megatron was simply growing tired of Starscream's incompetence by this point. I think destroying the entire studio was a poor short-term solution, since it would incite the retaliation of the Autobots (who are known movie buffs).

> But how did Starscream know? And I didn't include his dialog on that since
> he was somehow right about the "Stunticons" being fake. What I was trying to
> debate was which was right about the Stunticons being right for the mission.

I'm not really clear on what "unique transformation powers" Megatron is referring to. Their ability to turn into cars? Why does it have to be a car stealing rubies, laser lenses, etc. and not jets?

As for how Starscream detected the fake Stunticons first, who's to say? Maybe he could smell the camouflage paint. Maybe he recognized the sound of Autobot engines. For the purposes of this discussion, all that matters is that he was right!

> What about the Shockwave debate stuff between them, as well?

Starscream was jealous of Shockwave because Megatron considered him to be so valuable. Megatron's analysis of Shockwave as a soldier seems to be accurate enough.

> My impression was that Starscream felt the takover of the shuttle a bad idea,
> and that they should all just eliminate the moon base(s) instead.

It's so hard for me to look at the conversation with fresh eyes because I've heard it literally hundreds of times, but it seems to me like Megatron is remarking on how easily they took the shuttle (and killed its crew!) and Starscream is basically going, "Well, it won't be as easy as our next target... which I assume is the Moon Base... wait, whaddya mean it's not?"

As for what you said about Rodimus Prime within the pages of REGENERATION ONE, I really don't think that Rodimus saying "hmm" is a reference to the cartoon in any way, shape, or form. It's such a generic thing to say and it's hardly one of Rodimus Prime's regular quips. It's not like, say, Scorponok going "we shall see... we shall see," which seems to be a direct lift of Lord Zarak's dialogue from "The Rebirth."


Zob

[Rodimus_2316]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 9:02:01 PM UTC-8, Zobovor wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 6:33:25 PM UTC-7, Rodimus_2316 wrote:
>
> > My impression was he was referencing a fight that wasn't shown before, and
> > Megatron was not there for it. Am I wrong?
>
> I had always thought they were referring to the battle from "S.O.S. Dinobots." I suppose there could have been a second off-screen encounter, but it really sounds like they're talking about the only encounter they've had with the Dinobots up to this point.
>
> > Hadn't the Autobot ship gotten destroyed, and the Autobots now being led into
> > the sun by Cosmos' control from Teletraan-1, by this time?
>
> Right, but Megatron didn't know for sure that the Autobots were destroyed. Had he not been so busy grandstanding and showing the world what a loser Berger was on national television, maybe he could have garnered a foothold on the city, and the Autobots would not have repelled him so easily.

About Berger being a traitor: Couldn't he have just explained to everyone at the end that he was tricked just as they were? It's not like he knew the Deceepticons setup the Autobots and were working with them to conquer the world, or anything.

> > I think Megatron damaged Starscream like that because he was getting fed up
> > with him, but I could be wrong. And Starscream did suggest leveling the
> > studio, which might have been the simplest answer.
>
> It's quite possible Megatron was simply growing tired of Starscream's incompetence by this point. I think destroying the entire studio was a poor short-term solution, since it would incite the retaliation of the Autobots (who are known movie buffs).
>
> > But how did Starscream know? And I didn't include his dialog on that since
> > he was somehow right about the "Stunticons" being fake. What I was trying to
> > debate was which was right about the Stunticons being right for the mission.
>
> I'm not really clear on what "unique transformation powers" Megatron is referring to. Their ability to turn into cars? Why does it have to be a car stealing rubies, laser lenses, etc. and not jets?

Maybe their invulnerability given to them in their car forms in SoVS pt. 1, so they could easily break into places to get the components? Invulnerability that seems absent in this ep, as the Autobots are able to take them down just fine. :-\

> As for how Starscream detected the fake Stunticons first, who's to say? Maybe he could smell the camouflage paint. Maybe he recognized the sound of Autobot engines. For the purposes of this discussion, all that matters is that he was right!

I just wish it had been officially explained.

> > What about the Shockwave debate stuff between them, as well?
>
> Starscream was jealous of Shockwave because Megatron considered him to be so valuable. Megatron's analysis of Shockwave as a soldier seems to be accurate enough.
>
> > My impression was that Starscream felt the takover of the shuttle a bad idea,
> > and that they should all just eliminate the moon base(s) instead.
>
> It's so hard for me to look at the conversation with fresh eyes because I've heard it literally hundreds of times, but it seems to me like Megatron is remarking on how easily they took the shuttle (and killed its crew!) and Starscream is basically going, "Well, it won't be as easy as our next target... which I assume is the Moon Base... wait, whaddya mean it's not?"
>
> As for what you said about Rodimus Prime within the pages of REGENERATION ONE, I really don't think that Rodimus saying "hmm" is a reference to the cartoon in any way, shape, or form. It's such a generic thing to say and it's hardly one of Rodimus Prime's regular quips. It's not like, say, Scorponok going "we shall see... we shall see," which seems to be a direct lift of Lord Zarak's dialogue from "The Rebirth."

Point taken.

> Zob


- Rodimus_2316