So I went back through all my comics and tried to find the reports and
what information they had. They're essentially a breakdown by year of
how many comics were printed, how many sold and how many were returned
but in very exact detail. I found that each report covered one year's
worth of sales but they weren't always printed on a regular schedule.
The original Transformers comic ran 80 issues and I only found
circulation reports in issues 27, 39, 60, 66 and 76. That's one report
approximately every 12 issues starting with #27, reported roughly
around the April cover dates with a bit of a lag between issues 39 and
60. Every year of publication is covered from 1986 through 1990. I
thought there should have been a circulation report printed in the
early issues around issue 15 but I didn't find one. While the
information in the boxes wasn't a comprehensive listing of sales
numbers for each specific issue, the summaries did give a good idea of
how the book was doing in general.
Here's a scan of the circulation report from issue #27:
http://i9.tinypic.com/72u15iq.jpg
Here then is a brief presentation of the numbers outlined in the
circulation reports I found. There were some numbers given that I
didn't record here because they were difficult for me to analyze, but
if you go into each issue you'll see that figures were also given in
each category for the issue nearest to the filing date. I couldn't
figure out which issue that would be relative to each report, so I
left those numbers out in this recap, but if you could decipher the
relationship between circulation report filing date and the current
issue at the time of filing, you'd have circulation numbers for at
least five specific Transformers comics.
Filing dates: issue 27 (Apr '87 cover): October 6, 1986
issue 39 (Apr '88 cover): A typographical error resulted
in no date given
issue 60 (Dec '89 cover): October 1, 1988
issue 66 (May '90 cover): November 1, 1989
issue 76 (Mar '91 cover): October 1, 1990
A) Total number of copies printed
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in issue 27: 505,943
reported in issue 39: 446,312
reported in issue 60: 351,607
reported in issue 66: 212,495
reported in issue 76: 147,159
B) Paid circulation
1) Sales through dealers and carriers, street vendors and counter
sales
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in issue 27: 287,440
reported in issue 39: 200,425
reported in issue 60: 138,075
reported in issue 66: 89,730
reported in issue 76: 65,450
2) Mail subscriptions
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in issue 27: 13,542
reported in issue 39: 16,850
reported in issue 60: 11,900
reported in issue 66: 6,650
reported in issue 76: 4,383
C) Total paid circulation (sum of B1 and B2)
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in issue 27: 300,982
reported in issue 39: 217,275
reported in issue 60: 149,975
reported in issue 66: 96,380
reported in issue 76: 69,833
D) Free distribution by mail, carrier or other means, samples,
complimentary and other free copies
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in issue 27: 525
reported in issue 39: 132* (396?)
reported in issue 60: 132
reported in issue 66: 150
reported in issue 76: 100
E) Total distribution (sum of C and D)
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in issue 27: 301,507
reported in issue 39: 217,407
reported in issue 60: 150,107
reported in issue 66: 96,530
reported in issue 76: 69,933
Copies not distributed
1) Office use, left over, unaccounted, spoiled after printing
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in issue 27: 2,689
reported in issue 39: 3,960
reported in issue 60: 975
reported in issue 66: 600
reported in issue 76: 600
2) Returns from news agents
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in issue 27: 201,747
reported in issue 39: 224,945
reported in issue 60: 200,525
reported in issue 66: 115,365
reported in issue 76: 76,626
I find the newsagent returns numbers to be quite interesting for the first
few years. Hundreds of thousands of copies returned? Wow.
Joe
necrotron
"crazysteve" <Evil.King.M...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:89504f72-0bd8-4c3d...@j78g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Indeed. It looks about half of the comics printed were returned....
Is there just such a drop off in comic buyers nowadays? That's
interesting but I guess not so surprising given that there is so many
other things for kids/teens to be interested in.
t.k.
Were comics sold in different ways in the USA back in those days? I believe
nowadays you can only get them in special comic book stores (right?), and
the books have to be pre-ordered several months in advance, but I see that
the summary talks about "dealers and carriers, street vendors and counter
sales". That makes it sound like the American comic book market in the
1980's worked like it has "always" done here in the Nordic countries, in
which case a return of half the comics printed is perfectly normal.
Over here comics are sold in newsstands, grocery stores, gas stations, etc.
Since customers can buy comics pretty much anywhere they're not loyal, and
consequently the dealer can't be sure how many copies he'll sell of a
given issue. Instead they order a number large enough that they can be
reasonably sure it will cover the demand even if it happens to be high
that period. Comics are usually weekly, biweekly or monthly, and don't
remain on the stand when the issue comes out, but are returned to the
publisher or printer to be recycled.
The drawback of this system is that half of the comics printed are returned,
but since the accessibility results in quite high sales this doesn't matter.
Believe it or not, but with a population of just 9 million people, the
highest selling comic book in Sweden still sell in some 100,000 copies per
issue ...
What you should do is to look up the circulation summaries for other
comics in the 1980's, and see if the return ratio was comparable to that
of the Transformers comic.
--
Lars Eriksson, grounds...@ntfa.net
Founder of the Nordic TransFans Association (NTFA)
NTFA home page: http://www.ntfa.net
Here in Canada, in addition to comic shops, Wal-mart has some comics as
does places like some convenience stores and book stores (although the
comic shops are still the best place to get *exactly* what you want).
t.k.
I believe that the primary outlet for comic books in the USA used to
be newsstands, grocery stores, and so forth in the "old days,"
wherever normal magazines and newspapers were sold. There was a time
in the mid-80's in which I purchased all of my comics at either at the
local drug stores (i.e., phamacies) or at a large grocery store in the
next town. There were comic book stores back then, but they were not
very prevalent to the best of my knowledge, only found in larger
cities. And, there were comics that were sold "direct" only, only
available at those comic book stores or through home subscription.
There was a boom in the comic book industry here in the US around the
late 1980's and early 1990's, and comic book stores sprung up all over
the place. However, most of the boom was caused by people -
speculating- in comics in hopes of selling them for a profit later on
and not caused by people who bought the comics to actually read them.
Comics in comic book stores are generally in better condition (i.e.,
less bent up) than those on sale at grocery stores, so I think a lot
of the new sales went to the comic book stores, since the condition of
comics (mint, near mint, etc.) mattered to speculators.
The funny thing was that print runs absolutely soared to meet the
demand from the speculators, but those same high print runs meant the
comics were actually of -less- value in the long term. Since there
were so many copies of each issue out there, their complete lack of
scarcity made them practically worthless on the secondary market! I
often see comics from that period packed in 5-for-a-dollar bins.
When the speculators dropped out of the market (late 1990's), the bust
came and about two-thirds of the comic stores in my current area
(north Dallas) went out of business. The only ones that survived were
those that had already diversified their sales into gaming (cards,
figurines, etc.), toys, and anime/manga and did not rely primarily on
comic sales.
Nowadays, I hardly ever see comics on sale anywhere other than comic
book stores and the occasional bookstore. And, I hardly ever see
kids, who were originally their target market, showing interest in
them, either, only people in their late twenties and up who grew up
reading them. Kids in the USA today are more interested in
collectible card games, video games, or the animated shows on TV; they
love watching TEEN TITANS on TV, but they will probably never actually
pick up an issue of the comic book series.
Regarding the issue of returns, the grocery stores and such probably
had a lot of returns of comics just like they did for other monthly
periodicals they sold. (After all, a comic book is just a magazine
like Reader's Digest.) However, although most comic book stores will
accept preorders from their regular customers, they will usually order
extras to cover casual customer purchases, too. Then, they will keep
their unsold issues on the shelves until they sell or until they are
moved into the back issue boxes; I do not know if comic book stores
have the luxury of returning comic books they have ordered directly
from distributors.
- Chad
who still owns approximately 5000 comic books from his comic book
fanatic days
> they
> love watching TEEN TITANS on TV, but they will probably never actually
> pick up an issue of the comic book series.
Good. The Teen Titans comics suck.
*ducks*
> Is there just such a drop off in comic buyers nowadays? That's
> interesting but I guess not so surprising given that there is so many
> other things for kids/teens to be interested in.
Apparently so, from what I've heard. One guy I know buys his stuff
from a local comic store, as you do, and I'm told said guy is thinking
of dropping TF altogether because--across like three different
locations--he can't move ten or twenty books or so a month. That's
pretty damn bad.
Although considering how awful the sourcebooks and Ascending are, I'm
not surprised.
I used to like the old ones in the 80s. I haven't read the more recent
stuff though.
t.k.
Wow. Now I feel old. But yes, in the 1980s, the American comic book
market WAS pretty much as you describe it done in Nordic countries.
G.B. Blackrock
I was a fan of the George Perez/Marv Wolfman(?) TEEN TITANS series in
the 80's, too, when characters like Raven, Starfire, and Cyborg were
first introduced. (Beast Boy/Changling was a carryover from the Doom
Patrol.) I think the purpose of that particular series was to revamp
the earlier Teen Titans team (from the 60's?) while recreating that
super-team-as-a-supportive-family concept that the X-Men had over at
Marvel. The series lost the magic/chemistry somewhere along the way,
and I do not think they have been able to recapture it despite many
attempts to do so for the past twenty years.
- Chad
Yes, it was Wolfman/Perez (Perez did a lot of the art and, I think, some
of the plotting too).
t.k.
I thought this was a good idea so I did go through some other comics
in my collection looking for their circulation summaries.
Unfortunately as a kid I was so fixated on Transformers that I didn't
collect any other comic's issues consecutively for the same long time
period as I did TFs. So I have a sort of smattering of different
titles' circulation summaries with reporting periods from '86-'89. I
chose circulation summaries from Amazing Spider-Man, Iron Man and G.I.
Joe because ASM was a strong seller, Iron Man was average and G.I. Joe
was another long lived Hasbro property book.
I was going to try to calculate print run vs. return ratio, but there
are a lot of variables to consider. Like would you take the total
number of issues printed and compare that to returns? Or the total
number of issues minus defective and promo copies and then use that
against returns? And would comparing return ratios for a strong
selling title like X-Men to a lagging title like Transformers be fair?
I had too many nagging complications like that so instead here's just
some quick total print runs and returns numbers. You'll find returns
are still in the hundreds of thousands just like they were for
Transformers regardless of title.
Filing dates: AmazSpiM 287 (Apr '87 cover): Oct 6, 1986
Iron Man 237 (Jun '88 cover): ??? ? 1987
AmazSpiM 315 (May '89 cover): Oct 1, 1988
G.I. Joe 100 (May '90 cover): Nov 1, 1989
A) Total number of copies printed
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in AmazSpiM 287: 474,098
reported in Iron Man 237: 332,924
reported in AmazSpiM 315: 451,930
reported in G.I. Joe 100: 303,220
F) Copies not distributed
1) Office use, left over, unaccounted, spoiled after printing
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in AmazSpiM 287: 6,786
reported in Iron Man 237: 1,205
reported in AmazSpiM 315: 900
reported in G.I. Joe 100: 600
2) Returns from news agents
Average number of copies each issue during preceding 12 months
reported in AmazSpiM 287: 180,565
reported in Iron Man 237: 152,017
reported in AmazSpiM 315: 179,800
reported in G.I. Joe 100: 149,685
I think people who grew up in the golden age when print runs were in
the millions would say the same thing about the comics sales figures
of the eighties. Are they really doing that bad? 1993 was the most
profitable year ever for the comic industry, and that was fairly
recent. The largest print run ever was that X-Men vol. 2 #1 (with all
its variant covers) and that was within the last 15 years. As long as
I can buy TF books I'm satisfied. I'm just happy that Simon Furman has
a job writing Transformers regardless of the health of the industry as
a whole.
> Nowdays, a book with a print run of 100k is a #1 seller.
Well to be fair, Transformers G1 was canned at 70,000. That much would
only get a book into the top 15-20 today. It's no doubt impressive
compared to what the IDW books are selling currently but I doubt
Marvel's Transformers would have sustained those kinds of numbers long
enough to stay competitive in today's market. I don't know though.
Marvel may have introduced storylines where Silverbolt made a deal
with the devil to forget he loved Blackarachnia and it could have sold
ten million copies.
The period in which X-Men v2 #1 (over a million copies sold, I think)
was the absolute height of the huge "boom" period in comic books in
the 1990's. The comic book industry took a nosedive in the late
1990's, possibly into the early 2000's. Marvel Comics even had to
file for bankruptcy at one point.
Regarding print runs, there is a chart on the following page (random
Google search) that shows the exact print runs for Amazing Spider-Man
from 1966 to 2002:
http://www.spiderfan.org/faq/comics.html
Note that around 550,000 ASM's were printed per month in the sixties.
Then, it dropped off around the eighties, really shot up again around
the early nineties (the boom), and plummeted to around 160,000 by
2002. I would imagine that it would be even lower these days.
In 2005, All-Star Batman & Robin was the #1 seller of the year with
only 260,000 to 300,000 issues (estimated), what would have been
considered average at best in the prime of comic books or during the
recent boom. Other 2007 estimates (random Google search) for major
titles include the following low (relative to past performance)
numbers:
Batman (~75,000/month)
Superman (~50,000/month)
Uncanny X-Men (~90,000/month)
Ultimate Spider-Man (~70,000/month)
http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/31/dc-month-to-month-sales-november-2007/
http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/26/marvel-month-to-month-sales-november-2007/
My apologies for the off-topic info dump. If you cannot already tell,
I used to be as much of a comics enthusiast as I am a Transformers
enthusiast. Oh, to get back on topic, here are some estimated sales
for IDW Transformers comics:
http://tfarchive.com/comics/idw/sales.php
The average TF comic book currently sells maybe 15,000 to 20,000
apiece, a far cry from the print runs of the Marvel series.
- Chad
Huh,
Looks to be about the same ratio (50%).
At the point when Transformers was the #1 selling book when Pat (I can't
draw in porportion) Lee I could swear the CBR listed the direct market
orders at around 100k, and the next highest publishing numbers were in the
50k's. What was that... 2003?
Eh, the memory... it fails.
Joe
necrotron
I remember buying my first Transformers comics in '85 at gas stations
and grocery stores, too. I started with #6 I think. It may have been
number seven. Maybe it was #7 because I was able to get all of the
back issues at a store called Winn's. I remember Winn's had second
printings of #1-3 packaged together in a plastic bag. I think they
also sold #4-6 that way, too. I don't rememember the copies of 4-6
being second printings, though.
Nowadays I've noticed comics popping up in a lot of places that I
thought had long since stopped carrying them. I live on an air force
base in southwestern South Dakota and not only do they sell comics at
the base exchange, but they're also at bookstores like Borders,
Waldenbooks and a local retail chain named Pamida. Pamida is like a
smaller Target (they may even be the same company) and they put thier
comic rack right in the toy aisle. There's even a drug store in town
called Boyd's that carries comics. The comics at these places are
always from major publishers like Marvel, DC, Dark Horse and whoever
does the Simpsons. I've never seen IDW books at these non-comicshop
retailers. IDW is only available at the sole comic shop in Rapid City,
which is the only comic book store in at least a 300 mile radius. I
don't know if these non-comicstore chains are using Diamond as their
distributor or something else. I swear if IDW had their TF books on
the racks at these places they would have sold at least a few hundred
copies during the movie phase.
> There was a time in the mid-80's in which I purchased all of my
> comics at either at the local drug stores (i.e., phamacies) or at
> a large grocery store in the next town. There were comic book
> stores back then, but they were not very prevalent to the best of
> my knowledge, only found in larger cities.
I was so used to getting comics from grocery stores and gas stations
that I didn't even know dedicated comic book stores existed until
1988. Growing up on the lower east side of El Paso, Texas, I was never
aware that there was a comic store called "Rita's Fantasy Shop" on the
upper west side that had been around since the early 80's at least.
Then in the late 80's/early 90's comic stores started popping up on my
side of town. I guess that was reflective of the overall boom.
A combination comic shop/video game rental store named "Major Players"
was where I bought all my G2 comics and for back issues there was a
store called "Cool Arrows" that I used to visit. I left El Paso for
Laramie, Wyoming sometime around '93 and they even had a comic store
called 1,000,000 Comix. For a small town like Laramie to have a
dedicated comic store was a sign of the times I guess. I remember the
death of Superman coming out when I was there and also I also picked
up the early issues of Tomart's Action Figure Digest. I remember the
Hartmans' article in issue 11 (I think), and Toyfare coverage that
featured pictures from Hasbro's display for Transformers Generation 2.
I also remember an ad that ran in Tomart's for a convention called
Botcon that was going to be held in '94. I wonder how that went?
1,000,000 Comix was also the store where I picked up first printings
of the first four issues of Transformers at $1 each to replace my
childhood second printings. Despite the speculator boom, I only paid
25 cents over the cover price of those TF books that were almost ten
years old. It was a time when TF comics had absolutely no secondary
market value, at least in Wyoming.
> Kids in the USA today are more interested in
> collectible card games, video games, or the animated shows on TV;
> they love watching TEEN TITANS on TV, but they will probably never
> actually pick up an issue of the comic book series.
At $3.99 a pop I can understand why. We write about circulation
numbers dwindling but I believe the price increases at least in part
are intended to compensate for the lower number of readers.
I only buy IDW's main TF continuity, the Spotlight book and anything
else that's not BW title or a reprint so I don't mind. Plus ordering
online brings the price down. Although I hate to stop supporting the
local shop, they never have the regular cover variant I want. Hell,
they never even have the back issues I want. But that's another
headache I won't get into. All I'm saying is that online stores, ebay
and Botcon are my sources of TF comics and if I'm patient I can always
beat the retail cover price.
> I do not know if comic book stores
> have the luxury of returning comic books they have ordered
> directly from distributors.
I think that's how Diamond is set up-there's no returns. Comic stores
have to keep everything. It's the life support machine keeping the
comics industry alive.
> - Chad
> who still owns approximately 5000 comic books from his comic book
> fanatic days
I hear you. Do you remember the days when you thought 300 comics was a
lot? I'd be happy if I could get it back down to 3,000. What a pain to
maintain this particular childhood obsession became. I need to get it
down to a manageable size. Maybe just keep the Transformer books or
something. With the market how it is, it's almost more cost effective
for me to throw a couple hundred books in the garbage than sell it all
off on ebay.
That's what I've started doing... throwing out old ones I don't want any
more. I found out years ago that comic shops won't give you anything for
them anyway (which means their "value" is only what the shop puts on an
old issue it's trying to sucker someone into buying) and it's a pain for
me to try and sell them for anything on ebay (I tried but no one bid
last time, so the heck with it). Add to that, I hated the "One More Day"
storyline in Spiderman so I don't need those anymore anyway... :) I also
tossed most of my old DW stuff lately (never cared for it anyway). I
still have my IDW stuff, my UK reprints and TPBs though.
t.k.
For what it is worth, some used book stores (such as the Half Price
Books chain here in Dallas) will take old comic books off your hands.
They won't pay you much for them, but you might get enough to buy
lunch at a fast food restaurant.
Also, my local comic book store has a donation box where you can
donate old fiction books and comics which they then bundle up and
donate to military personnel overseas; there might be something like
that in your area. Maybe, you could donate your old comics to the
local children's hospital, too; I am sure there are a lot of kids who
would love reading them.
I just hate to see someone just throw in the trash a comic book that
might still have value in the eyes of another, even if it is a total
stranger. Obviously, that kind of mindset has always made it more
time-consuming for me to part with things I no longer want or need,
but I like to think it is worth it in the end.
- Chad