"Subspace" Theory Revisited
Vindicator
noticed years ago in the newsgroups. It was a happy event in my online
travels, just the sort of thing I find most pleasurable in our avocation;
for it deals with speculation and theory, and I do after all style myself a
Decepticon Theorist. The debate centers on the ability of G1 Transformers
to apparently alter their mass, as well as their seeming ability to conjure
some of their parts into existence while transforming. These selfsame parts
seem to mysteriously vanish during the process of reverse transformation.
Many who have grappled with this old chestnut contend that matter is shunted
to and from the realm of subspace, a concept probably borrowed from the Star
Trek continuity. Although I seem to recall (and would appreciate a
definitive reference if anyone remembers) seeing the specific term
"subspace" used somewhere within our canonical sources--perhaps in the
comics--I don't think it has ever been stated as a matter of fact that
subspace is the official explanation for these questions. Rather, I think
it is simply a popular theory put forth by fans, used both to explain the
whereabouts of Prime's trailer when not in use, as well as the ability of a
mere human child to lift Soundwave when in player mode, and other similar
puzzles. "Where does the matter go?" fans ask. "Why, into subspace, of
course!" they answer, quick to adapt a bit of popular techno-babble from the
Star Trek. At least we so surmise.
But there is, I contend, a much better explanation, one that finds its basis
within our unique Transformers continuity, and one which has canonical
support, albeit rather speculative. But within speculation we often find
the most interesting and enjoyable aspects of our hobby. Consider this:
Decepticons can fly while in robot mode and without the aid of any visible
method of propulsion. They have no need of rocket backpacks or any other
flight-enabling device. They simply launch themselves into the air and fly
with apparent ease.
The Autobots were able to do this briefly, after being resuscitated and
reconfigured in More Than Meets the Eye. However, while they soon lost the
ability, the Decepticons--who were capable of such flight as far back as the
events shown in War Dawn--continued to display this capacity both within and
without Earth's gravity well. It is interesting to note that the Autobots
exhibited this capacity while in space, as was shown for example in the
opening of Forever is a Long Time Coming. Could it be that the Decepticons
are simply more capable in whatever technique is involved, able to operate
within a strong gravitational field, while the Autobots require some very
rare, super-charged state like that perhaps gained briefly by their
resuscitation? Is this the basis for the Decepticons long-standing air
superiority, some bit of technology the Autobots could never quite fully
master?
Seen in this context, when Soundwave transforms into player mode, it isn't
necessary for him to shed mass into some realm of subspace in order that a
mere human might lift his now super-dense tonnage. If Decepticons can
nullify the effects of gravity while in robot mode, surely they can do so
while in other modes. Drawing a connection between the two phenomena is a
reasonable conjecture, I contend.
In order to accomplish these feats, some force must be involved. To the
best of my recollection, we're never given a name for this force, but we do
know that 1) it is invisible, at least within the normal human optical
spectrum, and 2) it is sufficient to counter the effects of Earth's
gravitational field. If we make the assumption that this same force allows
Transformers to alter their density in a controlled fashion--Soundwave
transforming from giant robot to a hand-held player for example--then we are
observing aspects of advanced control over the force of gravity and perhaps
several other fundamental physical forces as well.
In addition, the ability to alter one's density would also explain the
whereabouts of Prime's trailer when he is in robot form. It could simply be
compressed to a size we don't notice when not in use. When needed, it might
then expand to its accustomed size, becoming thereby visible.
We needn't, therefore, appeal to any mysterious subspace to explain these
old puzzles. We can look within our own exclusive canon for an equally
reasonable theory, perhaps rendered preferable by its very lack of reliance
upon, or reference to, any external continuities. In doing so, we enrich
our own experiences by developing a more detailed and comprehensive view of
the physical laws unique to the universe inhabited by the Transformers.
--
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- Vindicator
URL: http://www.AllSpark.net
mailto: Vindi...@AllSpark.net
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....the bravest are surely those who have the clearest
vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike,
and yet notwithstanding go out to meet it.
- Thucydides
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vindicate
I. to take vengeance for (AVENGE)
II. to show to be true, reasonable, just (UPHOLD)
III. to protect from attack or encroachment (DEFEND)
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Skyflight
: comics--I don't think it has ever been stated as a matter of fact that
: subspace is the official explanation for these questions. Rather, I think
: it is simply a popular theory put forth by fans, used both to explain the
I think it is a fan explanation, and it might be worthwhile to research
Google to see the etymology develop. Anyone involved with the pre-net
fandom recall the term?
[Decepticon flight]
: The Autobots were able to do this briefly, after being resuscitated and
My working theory is that Teletran-1 copied the flight circuits from the
Decepticons while repairing them and incorporated them into the Autobots.
However, the Bots didn't know how to maintain the devices properly, and
perhaps their use even proved dangerous. That's why I speculate the Dinobots
could fly, they were able to resolve those problems in the big overpowered
Dinos and put in less elegant and sophisticated flight circuits.
: Seen in this context, when Soundwave transforms into player mode, it isn't
: necessary for him to shed mass into some realm of subspace in order that a
: mere human might lift his now super-dense tonnage. If Decepticons can
: nullify the effects of gravity while in robot mode, surely they can do so
Unfortunately, changing gravity doesn't effect mass. Even with gravity
nearly gone such as orbital free-fall, you can't move something massive
around as though it weighed nothing. If Spike tried to pick up a multi-ton
object on which Earth's gravity did not pull down, he would succeed in moving
it only a tiny *tiny* amount.
To put it another way, say Soundwave was hovering in robot mode, totally
unaffected by gravity. And say Spike jumped on his shoulders. You would
expect him to simply land on top with Soundwave hardly noticing. What you
wouldn't expect is for Soundwave to plummet downward rapidly because of
Spike's weight. So if Soundwave had all the same mass in tape mode, Spike's
entire weight shouldn't move him as tape player but a fraction of an inch.
The only way it would work for a multi-ton tape player to be moved by a
human is if Soundwave was actually applying thrust himself in the exact
direction Spike was trying to move him. This would be virtually impossible
to do in real time. There has to be some lag for him to detect which
direction he's being moved in and generate the appropriate thrust.
Additionally, there's the problem of exactly how multiple tons of metal get
squeezed into less than a cubic foot. I don't know how to calculate it
exactly, but he would likely be thousands of times denser than uranium, and
extremely hot to go along with it. If you're proposing that density be
lowered, where exactly is the mass going?
: observing aspects of advanced control over the force of gravity and perhaps
: several other fundamental physical forces as well.
I think controling the laws of physics to the point of discarding several
important ones is a much more complicated and unlikely technology than
subspace. Also, there's one important piece of evidence, that of Kickback's
gun. It appears in his hand in a flash of light in one episode, conforming
to the subspace idea.
: upon, or reference to, any external continuities. In doing so, we enrich
: our own experiences by developing a more detailed and comprehensive view of
: the physical laws unique to the universe inhabited by the Transformers.
I would say that talking about and forming ideas about the physics of
Transformers expands our appreciation. I don't agree that one particular
idea is preferable to the others however, except on a personal level.
For the record, I think of the size-changing as unrelated to subspace. I
find it too complicated. Exactly how does the ability to send matter to
subspace shrink something? Do you send 19 of every 20 molecules to subspace?
How would you continue to function with most of your molecules physically
gone? Even if you could shunt most of the mass somewhere and survive, that
won't shrink you. You'll just have less mass. In fact, if you got rid of
most of your molecules, you'd likely just simply collapse into a dust pile.
Even asuming you could keep yourself together and somehow reform on the
molecular level to a smaller form, your brain will now be missing most of
its mass. A smaller brain can't be as complex and therefore as powerful. And
if the Transformers had total control of their molecules like that, why not
simply reform after being damaged? One more thing, how does Perceptor
*increase* the size of a part in "Microbots"? Add mass from subspace and
totally reform it with the additional mass, yet keep it damaged so it can be
repaired, then subtract the mass again? It doesn't make sense to me.
My thinking is that the shrinking and enlarging process actually shrinks and
enlarges the individual atoms of the object. True, this contradicts physics
too, but some future discovery could be made that makes it possible. So when
Soundwave shrinks, his mass decreases as well.
--
Skyflight - Decepticon, ATTCM co-moderator, skeptic, maker of stuff
"And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon that is dreaming."
Nightbird at Dominion MUSH - Join us and rule! bb13.betterbox.net 1999
ATTCM questions? http://www.panix.com/~attcm Now with Viewing Club archive!
Paul Qureshi
Hi Vindicator.
Interesting theory! But, I do have a couple of comments to make:
> Consider this: Decepticons can fly while in robot mode and without
> the aid of any visible method of propulsion. They have no need of
> rocket backpacks or any other flight-enabling device. They simply
> launch themselves into the air and fly with apparent ease.
Presumably, this is some kind of force manipulation. Either, they push
somehow against the air, or thy manipulate gravity. I'm not sure but it
seems that when in space they usually use their jet mode or some other
rocket type propulsion (Galvatrons cannon in the movie etc). That would
certainly support the theory that they need some pre-existing force like
gravity to manipulate.
There is also the possibility of something we don't really understand. For
example, current theories suggest that the universe is made up or 9 or 11
dimensions, not just the four that we can experience. The proof is so
mathamatically complicated and abstract that few really understand it, but
never the less it's quite probably true. I know it's not very satisfying,
but I think it's better than just writing the whole thing off as 'just a
kids thing' :)
> The Autobots were able to do this briefly, after being resuscitated
> and reconfigured in More Than Meets the Eye.
An early goof perhaps? But if you want to work it in, I'd suggest that
perhaps they simply lost the ability over time. When they were
reconfigured, Teletran 1 could have given them a complete set of
abilities, some of which faded over time to match their alt modes more
closely.
> Is this the basis for the Decepticons long-standing
> air superiority, some bit of technology the Autobots could never quite
> fully master?
Perhaps they just don't like doing it. Look at the Amish, they have
decided that some particular technology should not be part of their
society, and stuck to it. Maybe it's even part of the reason why the Cons
rebeled against their rulers, because they didn't like the law against
flying. It certainly gave the Cons a huge advantage, like a genetically
modified person could have, which would quite possibly be banned by humans
too in the next few years.
> Seen in this context, when Soundwave transforms into player mode, it
> isn't necessary for him to shed mass into some realm of subspace in
> order that a mere human might lift his now super-dense tonnage.
True, but there are still problems. For example, what about his 'brain'?
Presumably, some part of a TF is a central control and processing system,
akin to a human brain. They would also probably have other 'vital' parts.
Could these parts be shrunk and still function? Sure, you could reduce
their size a bit, but there are limits.
The other problem I see is that damaged TFs in alt mode seem to react the
same way as they do in robot mode. For example, typically smoke comes out
and you might seem some components breaking too. TFs can also be worked on
and fixed in alt mode, which would suggest that they are not in a
super-dense state.
> In order to accomplish these feats, some force must be involved. To
> the best of my recollection, we're never given a name for this force,
> but we do know that 1) it is invisible, at least within the normal
> human optical spectrum,
Don't you see dust around some TFs as the take off or land, even in robot
mode? I also seem to remember some of them apparently having boosters in
their feet too, which eventually became the boosters in their jet modes.
> Soundwave transforming from giant robot to a hand-held player
> for example
Bare in mind that his scale in alt mode was not always consistant.
Sometimes, he was 'realistic' size, sometimes he was much larger. Perhaps
on occasion he wanted to appear like the real thing, and sometimes was a
bit worried about being flattened by other TFs or wanted to release his
tapes. I'm not sure how his abilities changed depending on scale.
Still, I think your theory is good, definatly worth considering. How about
this one too: TFs are mostly empty. The Headmasters and Targetmasters
found plenty of room inside, and being hollow would not only make them a
lot lighter (useful for standing on relativly weak structures designed for
humans), but it would also allow them to shrink their outer 'shell'
without crushing their innards too much.
MoJo
Mako Crab
> If Spike tried to pick up a multi-ton
> object on which Earth's gravity did not pull down, he would succeed in moving
> it only a tiny *tiny* amount. So if Soundwave had all the same mass in tape > mode, Spike'sentire weight shouldn't move him as tape player but a fraction > of an inch.
Agreed, though I must point out one thing. In "Divide and Conquer"
Spike takes one of the Autobots guns, which is easily as large or
larger than himself, and *runs* outside with it despite having an
awkward grip on the weapon. I surmise that Cybertronian metals are
made of extremely light-weight alloys based on this.
Therefore, if Soundwave were to transform into tape player mode and
apply his gravitational fields to further lighten himself, I suspect
that it would be possible for Spike to lift him. And since we did see
Spike carry Soundwave around and since Soundwave didn't fall right
through the bag Spike was carrying him in, I suspect that this is
correct. Or at least somewhere on the right track.
- Mako Crab
*Did I mention that I love having the season 1 boxed set? I love being
able to site specific scenes now!*
Xot
> Presumably, some part of a TF is a central control and processing system,
> akin to a human brain. They would also probably have other 'vital' parts.
> Could these parts be shrunk and still function? Sure, you could reduce
> their size a bit, but there are limits.
>
Given what we've seen of mere *human* technology, the computational
power for a TR to operate would probably fit in a hard drive the size
of a paperback book. Assuming the trend of computers to get faster and
smaller, it's likely that Cybertronian brains could be as small as the
a fingernail.
> Still, I think your theory is good, definatly worth considering. How about
> this one too: TFs are mostly empty. The Headmasters and Targetmasters
> found plenty of room inside, and being hollow would not only make them a
> lot lighter (useful for standing on relativly weak structures designed for
> humans), but it would also allow them to shrink their outer 'shell'
> without crushing their innards too much.
This is kind of what I always assumed. The problem of scale still
arises, but you're correct in that TF's like Soundwave and the
cassettes can clearly control whether or not they shrink. There are
plenty of canonical examples of them both in a "realistic to alt mode"
size (ie, Ravage the size of an actual casette tape), and in a mode in
which they simply don't shrink - like when the tapes are ejected from
Soundwave, they are proportial to his size and don't enlarge when
transforming.
Gowron
> subspace to send faster-than-light communiques. They never used it for
> dimensional storage, which is what fans mean when they apply the term to
> Transformers. You could change the name to something non-Trekkish, but you'd
> still have to explain the phenomenon at work.
No. In some scenes (like Picard's near-death experience in surgery,
or in DS9 with the wormhole episodes), characters are seen against a
bright white background. I think that that is referred to in the show
as subspace, but I'm not sure.
What I am sure about is that "subspace" is the (or at least an)
official Trek explanation for faster-than-light travel, "warp speed".
Our rules of physics don't apply--we are asked to believe--in a
different kind of space. (So Trek subspace is really sort of similar
to ATT subspace.) The expression "coming out of subspace" is
frequently heard on the various Trek shows, if I recall correctly.
-Gowron
Star Saber
"Zobovor" <zob...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020807034436...@mb-fk.aol.com...
> Vindicator wrote:
> I think "subspace" is the catchall term that describes what we're seeing
here,
> for lack of a better term since it was never addressed directly in the
show.
> It *could* mean that their weapons are being stored in some dimensional
pocket,
> but there's no way of knowing. Nightwind postulated once that when these
> weapons materialize in their hands, these characters are actually
replicating
> new ones. (I don't entirely agree with this--seems like Optimus Prime
wouldn't
> be so desperate to get his rifle back from Nightbird if he could just make
> another one--but this illustrates that there's more than one
potentially-valid
> interpretation for this phenomenon we're seeing.)
To be honest, before discovering ATT *way* back when, I always attributed
these flashes to something similar to what Nightwind theorized. I never
thought these items were stored in some make-believe dimension nor did I
believe these items were replicated on the spot. Instead, I figured that the
various weapons were "digitized" - or broken down into their component
molecules much like the transporters on Star Trek (there's that "Trek-tech"
cropping up) and the energy stored in pattern-buffers within the
Transformers themselves until needed. However, either the patterns were
erased upon rematerialization (thus they could not "replicate" new ones) or
else they needed the raw materials and/or component molecules provided by
the original. I always tended toward the latter explanation since there was
no logic in erasing weapons patterns without cause but it made sense (to me
at least) that Transformers would not have sufficient resources and/or
energy within them to replicate replacements. They needed the originals.
It's also possible that each weapon carries the same energy signature of its
owner thus preventing an enemy from disarming his opponent and de-energizing
their weapon. It would be a failsafe not unlike the subspace
"frequency-lock" to prevent one from gaining access to their enemy's weapons
or - even better - substituting it with a bomb.
As for the problem of reduced mass, I don't think that has anything at all
to do with "subspace" and is an entirely different phenomena altogether.
Being eons-old alien robots, I would expect their technology to be beyond
our comprehension in at least some areas.
-Star Saber (Any sufficiently-advanced tech being indistinguishable from
magic...and all that...)
Gregatron
transforms to lead the Autobots in retreat at the beginning of "The
Ultimate Doom, Part 2".
- Gregatron
Steve-o Stonebraker
> What I am sure about is that "subspace" is the (or at least an)
> official Trek explanation for faster-than-light travel, "warp speed".
> Our rules of physics don't apply--we are asked to believe--in a
> different kind of space. (So Trek subspace is really sort of similar
> to ATT subspace.) The expression "coming out of subspace" is
> frequently heard on the various Trek shows, if I recall correctly.
I haven't actually read this in a Trek tech manual, so I could be wrong,
but I'm pretty sure "subspace" is exactly what most other sci-fi calls
"hyperspace". It's simply a way of sending signals and things quickly
from one place to another by taking a higher-dimensional shortcut. The
difference is that most sci-fi makes hyperspace "look" different, while a
ship travelling at warp in Trek appears to be in normal space, aside from
the starstreaks. There's really no scientific reason I can think of to
make hyperspace look different than normal space, though, so it's just an
asthetic choice on the part of the producers.
--Steve-o
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Stonebraker | Transformers FAQ Keeper | Astrophysicist
sst...@yahoo.com | www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb | AOL IM: srstoneb
Phillip Thorne
(Cross-posted from attcm to rttm.) People were wondering about the origin
of the use of the term "subspace" with regards to Transformers,
particularly for size/mass-reduction and storage of weapons/parts. A
connection to "Star Trek" was made:
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:02:26 EST, Gowron wrote:
>>What I am sure about is that "subspace" is the (or at least an)
>>official Trek explanation for faster-than-light travel, "warp speed".
>>[...]
And On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:37:24 EST, Steve-o Stonebraker
<sst...@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> cogitated:
>I haven't actually read this in a Trek tech manual, so I could be wrong,
>but I'm pretty sure "subspace" is exactly what most other sci-fi calls
>"hyperspace". [...]
Not quite... see below for more detail than you probably want.
***
Checking Google's Usenet archive, I find early TF subspace references in:
Fanfic: the specs for Rich Pawlish's character Overclaw ("subspace
pocket", "underspace armory"), Michael Hahnemann's "War Escalation" (both
apr-1994), H.Jameel Alkhafiz's "Insecticons" (may-1994), Rob Jung's
"Prometheus", Stephen Bajzek's "TF 2001" (both jul-1994).
There was an apr-1994 19-message thread "My two-bits on Subspace" started
by Dave Van Domelen. It looks like Mr.Alkhafiz borrowed the concept from
Marvel Comics pseudoscience.
Lizard's DS9-TF 1994(?) crossover fanfic "Sale of the 24th Century"
explains both Odo's and Swindle's mass-shifting ability via "subspace
extensions". He's not the only one wondering, though:
"One has to wonder, however, where humankind is headed when two
science-minded adults scratch their heads about Odo's mass when he
transforms into a mouse." --from the Acknowledgments in the DS9-TM.
***
The two ST tech manuals (TNG- and DS9-TM) (which I've now consulted) do
not seem to describe the properties of subspace in any way. Fan
Treknologists (on news:rec.arts.startrek.tech) consider these
provisionally reliable, subject to contradiction from onscreen episodes.
The older _Mr.Scott's Guide to the Enterprise_ is no longer considered
reliable, and the novels are disregarded as independent conceptions.
* In TOS-"The Tholian Web", the starship _Defiant_ (and Kirk) are trapped
in a "spatial interphase" which degrades human nervous systems.
* In TNG-"Deja Q", Geordi extends the ship's (non-propulsive) warp field
around an errant moonlet to reduce its mass, so that its orbit can be
changed. The TNG-TM descrobes "subspace driver coils" in the impulse
engines (unexotic fusion rockets) that reduce the ship's inertial mass, so
that their effective thrust is increased.
* In TNG-"Remember Me", Dr.Crusher is trapped in a "static warp bubble"(?)
accidentally created by Wesley's experiments, a sort of pocket universe
that emulates our own, but which sequentially collapses and rewrites the
memories of its duplicated inhabitants. (For a similar but fully realized
notion, see Robert Metzger's recent SF novel _Picoverse_.)
* In TNG-"Schisms", aliens from a "tertiary domain of subspace" abduct
crew members for experimentation, after the ship's sensors are modified to
"dig pretty deeply into subspace". Geordi describes subspace as "a
honeycomb, with an infinite number of cells".
Signals can be transmitted through subspace: subspace radio, various
long-range (and usually hazardous) subspace transporters (ordinary
transporters probably signal through realspace -- the evidence is
unclear), and (presumably) starship sensors. However IIRC, it's very
rarely described as a "place" where material objects could be stored.
Hyperspace?... In Trek (according to the TNG-TM and onscreen evidence)
starships at warp are enclosed in a "warp bubble" which moves through
"ordinary" space (at FTL velocities) and is subject to phenomena therein,
such as interstellar dust which must be swept away by the "navigational
deflectors". Ie, they don't travel through any sort of
compressed-dimension/alternate-physics "hyperspace", by any name. The
various pre-TNG novels had alternate interpretations of the physics of
warpflight, including hyperspace-like modes in which you can fly through a
planet, and a supernova is dangerous only by the subspace extension of the
explosion.
In Trek, the phenomena of shields, artificial gravity, tractor beams,
mass-reduction for sublight propulsion, and propulsive warp fields, all
seem to be related.
Fan treknologists have decided that "subspace" "underlies" realspace in
such a way as to provide an "absolute reference frame", so that FTL travel
does not produce the causality violations that general relativity
predicts. TNG-"The Mind's Eye" mentioned a "transitional relativity"
which might be the future physical theory to explain this.
Jason Hinson's "Subspace Physics" treatise is at
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/subphys/, linked from Joe
Creighton's "Starchive" at http://www.cs.umanitoba.ca/~djc/startrek/.
Beware, it contains math.
..- Phillip Thorne, RPI BS-CSCI 1998 ------------- It's the boundary -.
| tho...@underbase.org www, nsx.underbase.org conditions that |
| peth...@earthlink.net home.earthlink.net/~pethorne/ get you |
\_ The Non-Sequitur Express - SF-TV-Misc News P/Re/Views &c _________/
************************
On to the most recent message....
At 03:36 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
(Re: Farasha)
> > time sleeping during the day, and has picked up a lot in puppy
>
>Generic puppy class or a specific one?
Generic beginning puppy class with Sit/Down/Stand/Stay stuff. She's pretty
good at healing, though I'm still trying to keep her from taking flying
leaps on the end of her leash every now and again. She will need to get
into a more specific class soon, if she's going to start going to shows,
but I have to do some searching around for that.
>Cool. She sounds very friendly. I would love to meet her some day.
I'm sure the opportunity will present itself at some point. Some winter
when it's cold and nasty up in Canada, you might want to take an impromptu
vacation to Florida.... :)
> > House and home discussion snipped ... though I hope to be able to see your
> > house at some point and see what you've been doing with it....
>
>Well pretty soon it will be difficult because you will be moving to the
>farthest point possible and still remain on the same land mass
Difficult but not impossible. I'll see how things fall into place for me....
(Re: BotCon rooms)
> > unless I stay the first night at a friend's place. When the whole
> panic of
> > sold-out rooms hit, I already had two people who live in the area who
> > offered me floorspace just in case.....
>
>That is cool. I remember BC '96 where everyone was just completely
>hostile.
Yeah, that was the good old 2005 Mush crowd ... my "good friends" who
didn't even have a corner of floorspace for me. And this was before I had
left the Mush. Fortunately I knew more considerate people as well.
(Re: Armada and stuff....)
> > do with it. I'm baffled at how people on the TFA list are simply happy
> and
> > willing to accept all these re-named toys and desecrations of the
> names. I
>
>I think a lot of them are just happy to have SOMETHING available.
I am and remain of the opinion that it's better to have nothing at all,
than to have something that insults the original.
> > simply refuse to accept that. Worst of all is Laserbeak, whose name has
> > been slapped on an Autobot.
>
>I had heard about that. I was wondering what your reaction would be. I
>just cringed when I saw that. SIGH.
I've known about it for a long time. It's pretty sickening.
> > >but RiD is a totally lost cause as far as
> > >I'm concerned. I'm trying to watch it but it is just WAY too silly for me
> > >to completely stomach.
> >
> > I heard it was silly, but I was turned off from the start by, again, the
> > re-used names, particularly Megatron. Had they given the character his
>
>Yes that one REALLY hurt. You thought the pretender was bad.... ACK!
I can't imagine *any* character worse than the BW Pretender. I think I can
say that with a great deal of confidence without ever even having seen
RiD. It's like I said way back in '98 ... nothing can possibly be as bad
as BW. And I've been right....
>Um... BM (yes it is a continuation of BW but it isn't the same thing
>different writers) is worse. TRUST ME. (turning Cybertron ORGANIC of all
>things.)
I stand by my statement. Everything I heard about BM, laughable though it
was, didn't even *begin* to approach the atrocity that was BW. Including
turning Cybertron organic. By that point, I just shrugged. It's not
nearly as bad as dragging Megatron's name through the dirt and desecrating
the entire honor of the Decepticons....
> > Ah well. Hope the matter with the Ladybird books gets sorted so I can
> get
> > those in the mail to those of you who are getting them....
>
>It will all get sorted out. Anyone else interested in the books or is it
>just the TFA list?
I posted my for-sale list several places by now, but since the books had
been snapped up right away, I left them off the future installments. Will
get back to you and Ben and Phil as soon as I have the prices added up and
postage figured out....
--Raksha
"Every mile and every year, time and distance disappear;
I cannot explain this, dear, I will not even try."
--------------------------------------------------------
"I am the Plumed Serpent, I strike and I soar!"
--------------------------------------------------------
All-time favorite Transformer: Soundwave ("The secrets
of the Universe reveal themselves to those who listen.")
--------------------------------------------------------
ATTCM - the Transformers at their best!
(request alt.toys.transformers.classic.moderated
from: postmaster@<your provider's address>)
--=====================_15600067==_.ALT
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html>
<x-tab> </x-tab>Hi Vulcana
... first, an order of business, as I've received an article crossposted
to both ATTCM and the Rec group. The instructions I have, say to
send the article on to the following address: rtt...@killfile.org -
complete with headers and stuff, and it'll be approved through RTTM for
both groups. Only, the message has twice bounced back to me.
Has the address changed?<br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>Skyflight,
who would normally be familiar with how to work this, is currently in the
hospital with an unknown internal problem that he's waiting to hear more
about. (I could rant here about the incompetence of the medical
profession ... he's got a lot more trust in them than I do.)
Topaz, in getting his teeth cleaned last Tuesday, had a
suspicious-looking nodule removed from his gum, which I'm also waiting to
hear back on, as to what it was. So there's potentially bad news in
the works regarding my dog and one of my closest allies. He
switched the moderation of the Classics group over to me before he lost
net acces, in any case, so if there's been some other procedure put in
place since the last time I moderated, please let me know.
Hopefully I won't have to spam you with the messages next time a
crosspost comes up, but the complete article is as follows, enclosed in
"************************"s:<br>
<br>
<br>
************************<br>
<br>
From ne...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net Sat Aug 24 19:42:42 2002
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To: alt-toys-transforme...@moderators.isc.org <br>
From: tho...@underbase.org (Phillip Thorne) <br>
Newsgroups:
alt.toys.transformers.classic.moderated,rec.toys.transformers.moderated
<br>
Subject: [TECH] Re: "Subspace" Theory Revisited <br>
Message-ID: <3d680a43...@news.earthlink.net> <br>
References:
<kH1Y8.100195$UT.64...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
<20020807034436...@mb-fk.aol.com>
<5ff542ae.02080...@posting.google.com>
<slrnali5h9....@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> <br>
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Organization: EarthLink Inc. --
<a href=3D"http://www.earthlink.net/" eudora=3D"autourl"><font=
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.EarthLink.net</a><br>
<br>
</u></font>(Cross-posted from attcm to rttm.) People were wondering about
the origin <br>
of the use of the term "subspace" with regards to Transformers,
<br>
particularly for size/mass-reduction and storage of weapons/parts. A
<br>
connection to "Star Trek" was made:<br>
<br>
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:02:26 EST, Gowron wrote: <br>
>>What I am sure about is that "subspace" is the (or at
least an) <br>
>>official Trek explanation for faster-than-light travel,
"warp speed". <br>
>>[...]<br>
<br>
And On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:37:24 EST, Steve-o Stonebraker <br>
<sst...@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> cogitated: <br>
>I haven't actually read this in a Trek tech manual, so I could be
wrong, <br>
>but I'm pretty sure "subspace" is exactly what most other
sci-fi calls <br>
>"hyperspace". [...]<br>
<br>
Not quite... see below for more detail than you probably want.<br>
<br>
***<br>
<br>
Checking Google's Usenet archive, I find early TF subspace references
in:<br>
<br>
Fanfic: the specs for Rich Pawlish's character Overclaw ("subspace
<br>
pocket", "underspace armory"), Michael Hahnemann's
"War Escalation" (both <br>
apr-1994), H.Jameel Alkhafiz's "Insecticons" (may-1994), Rob
Jung's <br>
"Prometheus", Stephen Bajzek's "TF 2001" (both
jul-1994).<br>
<br>
There was an apr-1994 19-message thread "My two-bits on
Subspace" started <br>
by Dave Van Domelen. It looks like Mr.Alkhafiz borrowed the concept from
<br>
Marvel Comics pseudoscience.<br>
<br>
Lizard's DS9-TF 1994(?) crossover fanfic "Sale of the 24th
Century" <br>
explains both Odo's and Swindle's mass-shifting ability via
"subspace <br>
extensions". He's not the only one wondering, though:<br>
<br>
"One has to wonder, however, where humankind is headed when two
<br>
science-minded adults scratch their heads about Odo's mass when he <br>
transforms into a mouse." --from the Acknowledgments in the
DS9-TM.<br>
<br>
***<br>
<br>
The two ST tech manuals (TNG- and DS9-TM) (which I've now consulted) do
<br>
not seem to describe the properties of subspace in any way. Fan <br>
Treknologists (on
<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>news:rec.arts.startrek.tech)</u></font> consider
these <br>
provisionally reliable, subject to contradiction from onscreen episodes.
<br>
The older _Mr.Scott's Guide to the Enterprise_ is no longer considered
<br>
reliable, and the novels are disregarded as independent=20
conceptions.<br>
<br>
* In TOS-"The Tholian Web", the starship _Defiant_ (and Kirk)
are trapped <br>
in a "spatial interphase" which degrades human nervous
systems.<br>
<br>
* In TNG-"Deja Q", Geordi extends the ship's (non-propulsive)
warp field <br>
around an errant moonlet to reduce its mass, so that its orbit can be
<br>
changed. The TNG-TM descrobes "subspace driver coils" in the
impulse <br>
engines (unexotic fusion rockets) that reduce the ship's inertial mass,
so <br>
that their effective thrust is increased.<br>
<br>
* In TNG-"Remember Me", Dr.Crusher is trapped in a "static
warp bubble"(?) <br>
accidentally created by Wesley's experiments, a sort of pocket universe
<br>
that emulates our own, but which sequentially collapses and rewrites the
<br>
memories of its duplicated inhabitants. (For a similar but fully realized
<br>
notion, see Robert Metzger's recent SF novel _Picoverse_.)<br>
<br>
* In TNG-"Schisms", aliens from a "tertiary domain of
subspace" abduct <br>
crew members for experimentation, after the ship's sensors are modified
to <br>
"dig pretty deeply into subspace". Geordi describes subspace as
"a <br>
honeycomb, with an infinite number of cells".<br>
<br>
Signals can be transmitted through subspace: subspace radio, various
<br>
long-range (and usually hazardous) subspace transporters (ordinary <br>
transporters probably signal through realspace -- the evidence is <br>
unclear), and (presumably) starship sensors. However IIRC, it's very
<br>
rarely described as a "place" where material objects could be
stored.<br>
<br>
Hyperspace?... In Trek (according to the TNG-TM and onscreen evidence)
<br>
starships at warp are enclosed in a "warp bubble" which moves
through <br>
"ordinary" space (at FTL velocities) and is subject to
phenomena therein, <br>
such as interstellar dust which must be swept away by the
"navigational <br>
deflectors". Ie, they don't travel through any sort of <br>
compressed-dimension/alternate-physics "hyperspace", by any
name. The <br>
various pre-TNG novels had alternate interpretations of the physics of
<br>
warpflight, including hyperspace-like modes in which you can fly through
a <br>
planet, and a supernova is dangerous only by the subspace extension of
the <br>
explosion.<br>
<br>
In Trek, the phenomena of shields, artificial gravity, tractor beams,
<br>
mass-reduction for sublight propulsion, and propulsive warp fields, all
<br>
seem to be related.<br>
<br>
Fan treknologists have decided that "subspace"
"underlies" realspace in <br>
such a way as to provide an "absolute reference frame", so that
FTL travel <br>
does not produce the causality violations that general relativity <br>
predicts. TNG-"The Mind's Eye" mentioned a "transitional
relativity" <br>
which might be the future physical theory to explain this.<br>
<br>
Jason Hinson's "Subspace Physics" treatise is at <br>
<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u><a=
href=3D"http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/subphys/" eudora=3D"autourl">=
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/subphys/</a></u></font>,
linked from Joe <br>
Creighton's "Starchive" at
<a href=3D"http://www.cs.umanitoba.ca/~djc/startrek/" eudora=3D"autourl"><fo=
nt color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.cs.umanitoba.ca/~djc/startrek/</a></u></f=
ont>.
<br>
Beware, it contains math.<br>
<br>
..- Phillip Thorne, RPI BS-CSCI 1998 ------------- It's the boundary -.
<br>
| tho...@underbase.org www, nsx.underbase.org conditions that | <br>
| peth...@earthlink.net home.earthlink.net/~pethorne/ get you | <br>
\_ The Non-Sequitur Express - SF-TV-Misc News P/Re/Views &c
_________/<br>
<br>
************************<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On to the most recent message....<br>
<br>
<br>
At 03:36 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<br>
(Re: Farasha)<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>> time sleeping during the day,
and has picked up a lot in puppy <br>
<br>
Generic puppy class or a specific one?</blockquote><br>
Generic beginning puppy class with Sit/Down/Stand/Stay stuff. She's
pretty good at healing, though I'm still trying to keep her from taking
flying leaps on the end of her leash every now and again. She will
need to get into a more specific class soon, if she's going to start
going to shows, but I have to do some searching around for that.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>Cool. She sounds very
friendly. I would love to meet her some day.</blockquote><br>
I'm sure the opportunity will present itself at some point. Some
winter when it's cold and nasty up in Canada, you might want to take an
impromptu vacation to Florida.... :)<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>> House and home discussion
snipped ... though I hope to be able to see your <br>
> house at some point and see what you've been doing with it....<br>
<br>
Well pretty soon it will be difficult because you will be moving to the
<br>
farthest point possible and still remain on the same land
mass</blockquote><br>
Difficult but not impossible. I'll see how things fall into place
for me....<br>
<br>
<br>
(Re: BotCon rooms)<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>> unless I stay the first night
at a friend's place. When the whole panic of <br>
> sold-out rooms hit, I already had two people who live in the area
who <br>
> offered me floorspace just in case.....<br>
<br>
That is cool. I remember BC '96 where everyone was just completely
<br>
hostile.</blockquote><br>
Yeah, that was the good old 2005 Mush crowd ... my "good
friends" who didn't even have a corner of floorspace for me.
And this was before I had left the Mush. Fortunately I knew more
considerate people as well.<br>
<br>
<br>
(Re: Armada and stuff....)<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>> do with it. I'm baffled
at how people on the TFA list are simply happy and <br>
> willing to accept all these re-named toys and desecrations of the
names. I <br>
<br>
I think a lot of them are just happy to have SOMETHING
available.</blockquote><br>
I am and remain of the opinion that it's better to have nothing at all,
than to have something that insults the original.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>> simply refuse to accept
that. Worst of all is Laserbeak, whose name has <br>
> been slapped on an Autobot.<br>
<br>
I had heard about that. I was wondering what your reaction would
be. I <br>
just cringed when I saw that. SIGH.</blockquote><br>
I've known about it for a long time. It's pretty sickening.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>> >but RiD is a totally lost
cause as far as<br>
> >I'm concerned. I'm trying to watch it but it is just WAY
too silly for me<br>
> >to completely stomach.<br>
> <br>
> I heard it was silly, but I was turned off from the start by, again,
the <br>
> re-used names, particularly Megatron. Had they given the
character his <br>
<br>
Yes that one REALLY hurt. You thought the pretender was
bad.... ACK! </blockquote><br>
I can't imagine *any* character worse than the BW Pretender. I
think I can say that with a great deal of confidence without ever even
having seen RiD. It's like I said way back in '98 ... nothing can
possibly be as bad as BW. And I've been right....<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>Um... BM (yes it is a
continuation of BW but it isn't the same thing<br>
different writers) is worse. TRUST ME. (turning Cybertron
ORGANIC of all<br>
things.)</blockquote><br>
I stand by my statement. Everything I heard about BM, laughable
though it was, didn't even *begin* to approach the atrocity that was
BW. Including turning Cybertron organic. By that point, I
just shrugged. It's not nearly as bad as dragging Megatron's name
through the dirt and desecrating the entire honor of the
Decepticons....<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>> Ah well. Hope the
matter with the Ladybird books gets sorted so I can get <br>
> those in the mail to those of you who are getting them....<br>
<br>
It will all get sorted out. Anyone else interested in the books or
is it <br>
just the TFA list?</blockquote><br>
I posted my for-sale list several places by now, but since the books had
been snapped up right away, I left them off the future
installments. Will get back to you and Ben and Phil as soon
as I have the prices added up and postage figured out....<br>
<br>
<x-tab> </x-tab><x-tab> =
</x-tab><x-tab> &=
nbsp; </x-tab>--Raksha<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
"Every mile and every year, time and distance disappear;<br>
I cannot explain this, dear, I will not even try."<br>
--------------------------------------------------------<br>
"I am the Plumed Serpent, I strike and I soar!"<br>
--------------------------------------------------------<br>
All-time favorite Transformer: Soundwave ("The secrets<br>
of the Universe reveal themselves to those who listen.")<br>
--------------------------------------------------------<br>
ATTCM - the Transformers at their best!<br>
(request alt.toys.transformers.classic.moderated <br>
from: postmaster@<your provider's address>)</html>
--=====================_15600067==_.ALT--
Phillip Thorne
(Cross-posted from attcm to rttm.) People were wondering about the origin
of the use of the term "subspace" with regards to Transformers,
particularly for size/mass-reduction and storage of weapons/parts. A
connection to "Star Trek" was made:
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:02:26 EST, Gowron wrote:
>>What I am sure about is that "subspace" is the (or at least an)
>>official Trek explanation for faster-than-light travel, "warp speed".
>>[...]
And On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:37:24 EST, Steve-o Stonebraker
<sst...@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> cogitated:
>I haven't actually read this in a Trek tech manual, so I could be wrong,
>but I'm pretty sure "subspace" is exactly what most other sci-fi calls
Vindicator
<begin quote>
Hi,
I have no idea how to reply to a moderated newsgroup so I figured I would
just e-mail you instead regarding the following thread:
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=kH1Y8.1
00195%24UT.6453285%40bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
Although Star Trek would make references to subspace transmissions or
whatnot, I think that it was Marvel Comics who really pushed subspace as a
place to send (or extract) extra mass when changing sizes.
There was a series called MARVEL UNIVERSE in the mid-1980's that attempted
to give scientific explanations for phenomena such as the Bruce Banner
changing into the Hulk. I no longer have the comics so I cannot quote them,
but they stated that Bruce Banner drew mass from subspace in order to grow
to Hulk size. I think subspace was referenced in regards to the
shape-changing Goliath and Ant-Man, too, among many others.
Anyway, I thought you might find that interesting. If you post that on
ATTCM, I would appreciate you mentioning that you heard it from me.
Thanks,
Chad Rushing
<end quote>
Gregatron
>
> There was a series called MARVEL UNIVERSE in the mid-1980's that attempted
> to give scientific explanations for phenomena such as the Bruce Banner
> changing into the Hulk. I no longer have the comics so I cannot quote them,
> but they stated that Bruce Banner drew mass from subspace in order to grow
> to Hulk size. I think subspace was referenced in regards to the
> shape-changing Goliath and Ant-Man, too, among many others.
Yes, I know Marvel Universe well. Although the word "subspace" is not
explicitly mentioned, the Hulk's entry, for example, does indicate
that some 800 pounds of bone and tissue are shunted back and forth
between our world and some other dimension when Banner transforms.
- Gregatron