ATF seized shipment of pot metal BB guns, calls them 'machine guns'
Greegor
> A gun rights organization has launched a Freedom of Information
> request following a decision by federal Customs and Border Protection
> agents to seize a shipment of toy pellet guns and a determination by
> the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that
> they could be converted into machine guns so they must be destroyed.
>
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=127706
Contributor: Alexis Del Cid
Email: ade...@koin.com
Last Update: 3/05 3:35 pm
ATF seizes 30 toy guns, infuriating local business owner
Since the story below first appeared, the buzz has only gotten louder
over government agents seizing a batch of toy guns from a local
business owner.
Click the link at right See ATF toy gun seizure: was it justified? for
the updated story and exclusive interviews with Ben Martin and another
local Airsoft specialist who went into some detail on why he believes
the idea is preposterous: Jason Jonah is a merchandise receiver at
Andy & Bax Surplus, a Portland Airsoft dealer.
CORNELIUS, Ore. - A local business owner is flabbergasted after a
shipment of 30 toy guns for his store was confiscated by ATF agents in
Tacoma.
Brad Martin and his son, Ben, sell the Airsoft BB guns from their
store in Cornelius where they’ve been in business for seven years.
The Martins said they buy their stock from Taiwan because the
merchandise is less expensive. But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives seized a shipment of 30 in October. That
shipment is worth around $12,000 and the ATF is promising to destroy
the entire shipment.
Special Agent Kelvin Crenshaw said the toys can be easily retro-fitted
into dangerous weapons.
"With minimal work it could be converted to a machine gun," Crenshaw
said.
Brad Martin is furious about the loss of money, for sure, but also in
what he now thinks as a loss of his time and the use of government
agents to seize toy guns.
"All this manpower, all this time, all this taxpayer money, [it is]
wasting my time and my profitability,” Martin said. “[Just] to seize
30 toy guns!"
Ben Martin disagrees that the toy guns could ever be considered
dangerous.
"To say these are readily convertible to machine guns is absolutely
preposterous,” he said. “The round wouldn't go into the firing chamber
and even if the firing pin did strike the primer the gun would
basically blow up in your face.”
ATF said it also seized the toys because they are missing the blaze
orange tips required on all imported toy guns.
The Martins said they've received shipments before from Taiwan that
were missing the orange tips and were simply asked by customs agents
to drive up to Tacoma and paint the tips orange themselves. They are
wondering why it is an issue now.
ATF toy gun seizure: was it justified?
Reported by: Kat Ricker
Email: kri...@koin.com
Last Update: 3/05 10:13 pm
CORNELIUS, Ore. - The buzz has only gotten louder over government
agents seizing a batch of toy guns from a local business owner, so
we're attempting to bring more light to the subject.
In October, Tacoma agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms
and Explosives seized a shipment of 30 Airsoft rifles from Brad Martin
and his son Ben. The Martins sell Airsoft replicas from Airsoft Outlet
NW in Cornelius.
The ATF plans to destroy the entire $12,000 shipment.
Agents say they confiscated the Airsoft rifles for two reasons - one,
they were missing the blaze orange tips required by law on all
imported toy guns; and two, the toys could be retrofitted into
firearms.
The Martins are baffled by both claims.
On the orange tips, the Martins say they have received shipments from
Taiwan before that were missing the orange tips, and customs agents
have asked them to drive up to Tacoma and paint the tips orange, which
they have done.
But it's the second claim that really has gun enthusiasts balking.
Special Agent Kelvin Crenshaw said the toys can be easily retrofitted
into dangerous weapons.
"With minimal work it could be converted to a machine gun," Crenshaw
said.
The Martins refute this, and plenty of enthusiasts who posted to our
website under our original story have as well.
I talked with Ben Martin and another local Airsoft specialist who went
into some detail on why he believes the idea is preposterous: Jason
Jonah is a merchandise receiver at Andy & Bax Surplus, a Portland
Airsoft dealer.
Q&A with Jason Jonah at Andy & Dax Surplus
Do you think parts of these Airsoft rifles could be used in building
machine guns or any other type of firearm?
In my opinion, absolutely not. They’re not strong enough. It’s a toy,
not a gun. It looks like a gun, but the insides are completely
different, the design is different, and the material it’s made of is
just not strong enough to fire real ammunition.
The owner says the receiver is made of a low quality cast aluminum.
Would that be practical to use in such a conversion?
No. not at all. It’s totally inappropriate.
What would happen if you tried?
The first time you tried to fire it, you’d probably blow your hand
off. The gun would come apart and the pieces fly at you. If it weren’t
the ATF making these accusations, I’d laugh, but they must be taking
it seriously.
In all my years, I’ve never had anyone talk-- even laughingly--about
changing these into weapons. It’s just not something I’ve ever
encountered in my experience.
Is it impossible or could they be adapted? If so, are there other
factors which would make this impractical – cost, resources, tools?
It’s hard for me to say. I’m the kind of person who doesn’t like to
say anything is totally impossible, but I just don’t see how it could
be done, other than taking an entire gun, a pistol, and hide it up
inside the Airsoft gun and figure out a way to make it fire from
inside the gun. That’s the only way I can thing of.
When you’re pulling the trigger in an Airsoft, you’re not activating a
mechanical mechanism, you’re sending an electrical signal to the
battery, which sends more signal to the motor, which is spinning and
sending out those pellets. What you’re really looking at is you have
to imagine that gun as a hollow shell. Inside the shell are a motor, a
battery, and a trigger mechanism – a trigger connected to electrical
wires. There are structures to keep that in place, but the gun is
really just a hollow shell for the most part.
It would be as easy to transform an Airsoft as it would be to
transform your Cuisinart or any other electrical appliance into a real
gun. It’s made of the same plastic or low-quality aluminum as any
other appliance. So maybe you turn it into a firearm, but it would be
like transforming any other electrical appliance – hiding a gun inside
an electrical appliance. It’d be like something you’d see on YouTube;
hey, look what I did.
It’s outside of the realm of practicality. It’s almost too ridiculous
to even answer as a serious question.
Another reason the ATF cited for the seizure was the lack of orange
tips, legally required to identify these imports as toy guns instead
of real. As an Airsoft seller, how important is the orange tip to you
when you receive a shipment?
Everything that I’ve ever gotten or received comes with that orange
tip on. It’s illegal to sell or purchase without that orange tip.
I’ve seen maybe one or two of the guns where it would be physically
possible to take that tip off, but 99 percent, it’s permanent –
painted or physically attached. You couldn’t get that off.
Would you reject a shipment without the orange tips?
Yes, I would have to. I couldn’t sell than like that, and I wouldn’t
want to, either. They look real enough as it is.
Does this seizure seem unusual and/or harsh to you?
The little that I know about it, yes, it seems really unusual to me.
My impression is that the ATF was mistaken in what they found and
retroactively tried to justify what they did.
If the person were running up and down the street with one (of these
unmarked toy guns), that would be justified to me, but to go after
someone with these inside somewhere does seem pretty out of the
ordinary to me.
Jason Jonah is a merchandise receiver at Andy & Bax Surplus, a
Portland Airsoft dealer. Jason can be reached at Jpac...@yahoo.com
Q&A with Ben Martin from Airsoft Outlet NW
Ben Martin (Courtesy of Ben Martin) Do you think the ATF’s seizure was
appropriate?
We believe the ATF's seizure was wholly inappropriate. Commenters from
the Internet, radio, and TV agree and support the position that ATF
stepped outside its jurisdiction and seized these replicas without
reason.
Did the ATF explain to you their exact concerns with these air
rifles?
They have not. We were told we would receive a letter stating why
they've been seized and their ultimate outcome, but we have yet to see
this letter.
Do you have any chance of getting your property back?
We're still in the process of figuring out what the ATF's facts are
and what their final decision is. We'll take the next step once we
know what they plan to do.
Were you concerned that this shipment did not have the orange tips?
The orange tip debate has come to a head because of this. We've always
operated under the assumption that orange tips are needed to
differentiate that these replicas are toys, but according to the CBP
FAQ here, Airsoft replicas are not considered toys and don't need an
orange tip.
Also, when this first started back in October 2009, the customs agent
I talked to was unfamiliar with the product and considered them BB
guns, which don't require orange tips, either. So we're not quite sure
how much emphasis Customs and Border Protection puts on the orange
tip.
Do you think these toy air rifles could be converted into machine guns
or any other firearm, or their parts could be used in a conversion?
No, I don't think it's practical for anyone to think that these are
readily convertible to a "machine gun" or even a normal firearm.
Anyone with the knowledge to attempt such a feat would know that these
cannot handle the stresses placed on a firearm, and would be more
likely to try and convert what is called an 80 percent receiver which
doesn't require an FFL or to be serialized by the ATF.
What metal is used in the receivers?
It's an anodized pot metal; this is contrary to firearms, which are
typically 4140 steel.
Have you ever had any problems with these toy guns or any other toy
guns before this? What is your relationship with the ATF like?
We've had some issues with Customs and Border Protection in the past,
mostly trademark issues. Other times they've forcefully removed the
orange tips replicas and then confiscated them, but as far as I know
this is the first time that the ATF has ever been involved with
confiscation of Airsoft product.
We've never had any issues or any contact with the ATF before this, so
the relationship between Airsoft Outlet NW and the ATF has been
platonic or nonexistent.
U.S. Customs seizes shipment of WE M4 GBBR’s allegedly bound for
Airsoft Outlet NorthWest
U.S. Customs seizes shipment of WE M4 GBBR’s allegedly bound for
Airsoft Outlet NorthWest
Friday, February 26, 2010, 9:02
Hitting the airsoft world today is a story picked up by Seattle’s
King5.com and Tacoma’s The News Tribune about a shipment of 30 WE M4
Gas Blowback airsoft rifles being detected and seized by US Customs
and Border Protection.
Customs officials at the Port of Tacoma seized a shipment of 30 pellet
guns that officials say could have been modified into machine guns.
An investigation is under way after U.S. Customs and Border Protection
officers discovered the Airsoft guns Feb. 8 in a suspicious-looking
container. The shipment, labeled “Toys and Parts,” was worth about
$10,000 and arrived at the port in October from a manufacturer in
Taiwan, Customs and Border Protection spokesman Doug McBride said.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives determined
that the rifles were equipped to shoot plastic balls but could be
converted into machine guns firing live ammunition.
Ok, I didn’t want going to start on the obvious FUD being reported on
here, and I can’t completely blame the news organisations for this, as
they report on what they have been told and are not the experts unlike
the BAFTE and CBP, but the implication that these seized airsoft
rifles can be converted into firing live ammunition just astounds me.
I would be first in line (behind a bulletproof screen) to witness the
carnage that would ensue from somebody attempting to detonate a .223
round in the alloy upper receiver of an M4 GBB, as unlikely as it
would be with the absence of a firing pin and all the other essential
parts of an AR-15 bolt to detonate a live round. The ludicrousness
dissuades me from wanting to even touch on the other issues such as
the barrel, the BCG and the dimensions of the WE receiver being
incompatible with real steel tooling.
BATFE and CBP have experts in weaponry, and I have absolutely no doubt
that they understand the mechanics of a toy GBB M4 and a Real Steel
AR-15, why they would feed the media such obvious FUD boggles ones
mind.
“You couldn’t tell by weight or feel” that the guns were fake, ATF
spokeswoman Cheryl Bishop said. “Most people would be hard-pressed to
tell the difference, and that’s why we were so concerned.”
The metal pellet guns had the same size, weight and appearance of an
M-4 automatic rifle, the weapon used by the U.S. military. The rifles
did not have serial numbers on them, as real guns would, but they also
did not have the orange-blaze tip required for all imported toy guns.
“You could slide a magazine in there. They load and charge very
realistically, very much like the real thing,” Bishop said.
The ATF also determined that the shipment did not arrive with the
proper permits to enter the United States. The guns will be destroyed.
It would seem the sensationalism and FUD are unnecessary if you are to
believe the reports that the rifles arrived in the US without the
federally mandated blaze orange tip and improper permits for
importation. If you just take those factors into consideration, it
becomes a non-story.
What would have seemed to be a error of the clerical and shipping
nature has been turned into a FUD based crusade by US Authorities for
reasons that are kind of unclear and Seattle based news site,
King5.com certainly doesn’t help the situation by incorrectly (in all
intonations) referring to the toys as ‘Machine Guns’.
"These rifles could have had far-reaching and potentially devastating
ramifications if they had gotten into the hands of individuals who
wanted to do harm in the American population," said Customs and Border
Protection Area Port Director, Rolando Suliveras, Jr. "This was a good
interception by our officers."
FUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt
The fact that the shipment arrived in the United States in October of
last year and has only just been discovered, Feb 8th 2010, also raises
questions.
An anonymous source has stated that the airsoft shipment was heading
to Oregon based retailer Airsoft Outlet NorthWest, we have contacted
Airsoft Outlet NW for confirmation but as of time of writing, although
contacted us, have not released a statement concerning the seizure.
According to the Airsoft Outlet NW website, the owner of Airsoft
Outlet Northwest will be addressing the news on the Lars Larson Show
on 750 AM KXL at 2p.m. today.
Gun Owners of America (GOA) wants answers, files FOIA and weighs in on
Tacoma Toy Seizure
Saturday, March 13, 2010, 6:17
Gas Rifles, Miscellaneous143 views
CommentsVia Bob Unruh of World Net Daily, John Velleco, Director of
Federal Affairs for Gun Owners of America, a grass-roots gun lobbying
organization with over 300,000 members nationwide is none to pleased
with the ATF over the ludicrous seizure of the airsoft guns at Port of
Tacoma and on behalf of Gun Owners of America, has filed a FOIA
request with the Federal Agency to get some answers…
Written by John Velleco
Gun Owners of America
U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), apparently unable to
distinguish between real guns and replicas, seized a shipment of 30
toy guns in a February bust at the Port of Tacoma in Washington.
Airsoft guns, which fire little plastic balls, are used by a growing
number of loyal enthusiasts (think paintball, only not as messy). In
addition, thanks to their realistic look, weight, and feel, these guns
are often used for training purposes by National Guard units and law
enforcement.
It was this realism that led CBP agents to seize the shipment—which
was destined for Airsoft Outlet Northwest in Cornelius, Oregon—and to
call in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
(BATFE) for a closer look.
The BATFE was at least knowledgeable enough to discern that the guns
in question were, in fact, not real guns. The case should have ended
right then and there. After all, the agency has authority only with
respect to the importation of real guns. Toy guns fall no more under
BATFE jurisdiction than teddy bears.
However, a little technicality like lack of jurisdiction was not
enough to keep BATFE off the case.
“In its present state, our firearms technology branch classified this
as a machine gun,” said BATFE special agent Kelvin Crenshaw.
But wait a minute. Didn’t the BATFE previously admit that these are
not real guns?
Yes, but “With minimal work it could be converted to a machine gun,”
Crenshaw said.
Astonished, the owners of the store, Brad Martin and his son, Ben,
inquired with the agents as to exactly how “minimal” the work would be
to “convert” these toys into real machine guns.
The Martins were given the government version of “talk to the hand.”
File a Freedom of Information Act request, they were told.
The Martins have done just that, as has Gun Owners of America. There
must be accountability with this agency because if the Bureau can
unilaterally decide to get into the business of regulating toys, its
mission has grown dramatically without any congressional input or
oversight.
Of course, that would not come as a big surprise to many gun dealers
who interact with the BATFE on a regular basis. The agency has become
an arrogant and out-of-control bureaucracy with a history of trampling
on people’s gun rights.
Even more troubling is that this agency’s mission—at least as it
relates to firearms—falls completely outside the framework of
constitutional authority given to the federal government.
As the Supreme Court reaffirmed in the 2008 Heller decision, Americans
have an individual right to keep and bear arms. But if firearms
transactions have to be approved by the Washington bureaucrats, what
was once a “right” has morphed into a “privilege.”
And now they are opening the door to regulating toy guns, even though
it would be extremely risky, expensive and, well, dumb, to attempt to
convert an Airsoft into an actual machinegun.
In fact, GOA and the Martins separately consulted with several
gunsmiths who debunked the notion that the seized Airsoft guns could
be converted with “minimal work.”
To make the transformation, the entirety of the upper receiver would
have to be replaced, but the lower receiver would still be unable to
endure the intense force of live ammunition because it is made of pot
metal (inexpensive alloys) instead of hard steel. And all of this
work would actually cost more than buying a real—and stable—AR-15
rifle.
BATFE also tried to justify the seizure because the toys lacked the
blaze orange tips now required on all imported toy guns. This again
raises the question of jurisdiction and the BATFE regulating toy
guns.
The Martins noted that previous shipments from Taiwan lacked the
orange paint, but that they were allowed to simply go to Tacoma and
paint the ends of the barrels themselves.
Not this time, though. The toy guns, valued at over $10,000, remain
in the hands of the BATFE and are slated to be destroyed.
Brad and Ben Martin were robbed just as surely as if they had been
mugged walking down the street. Only in this instance, the thugs
operated under the color of law by an agency whose very existence is
questionable.
[Editor Note: Gun Owners of America is a 300,000 member strong lobby
group formed in 1975 by an ex NRA member and have boasted many
victories in US Congress over the years on behalf of American gun
owners so I'm hoping they run with this.]
richard
> On Mar 12, 8:19 pm, Nomen Nescio <nob...@dizum.com> wrote:
>> A gun rights organization has launched a Freedom of Information
>> request following a decision by federal Customs and Border Protection
>> agents to seize a shipment of toy pellet guns and a determination by
>> the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that
>> they could be converted into machine guns so they must be destroyed.
>>
> http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=127706
>
We can thank Pres. George Bush {either one} for taking "terrorism" to the
extreme level and making it so now that even toys can be perceived as
"dangerous weapons".
What I'd like to know is, why is this particular store shipment singled
out? Like this is the only place in the country that sells these toy guns?
Then, I challenge the ATF to defend themselves and show us where it is that
any BB gun, is lethal. Even if one could somehow manage to convert these
toys to "machine guns" as claimed, the toy does not have the power to even
penetrate the skin.
It sounds to me like ATF got word of a shipment of guns and either got the
wrong container, or just plainly fucked up the case. I hope the court slaps
the ATF good for being fuck ups.
Kent Wills
>On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:44:55 -0800 (PST), Greegor wrote:
>
>> On Mar 12, 8:19 pm, Nomen Nescio <nob...@dizum.com> wrote:
>>> A gun rights organization has launched a Freedom of Information
>>> request following a decision by federal Customs and Border Protection
>>> agents to seize a shipment of toy pellet guns and a determination by
>>> the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that
>>> they could be converted into machine guns so they must be destroyed.
>>>
>> http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=127706
>>
>
>We can thank Pres. George Bush {either one} for taking "terrorism" to the
>extreme level and making it so now that even toys can be perceived as
>"dangerous weapons".
[...]
As the article reads, the guns can be converted to use live ammo
rather than pellets.
It justifies concern, but IMO, I think the BATFE over reacted.
Especially if John Velleco's claim, "And all of this work would
actually cost more than buying a real – and stable – AR-15 rifle" is
true.
If someone wants to acquire an automatic weapon, they would, I
expect, want to do so with as little cost as possible. Spending more
to convert a pellet gun than the cost of a true automatic would make
no sense. Even if someone is not legally allowed to buy a true
firearm, the cost would be more than I would expect anyone to want to
pay.
--
Aibohphobia: The fear of palindromes.
Greegor
about as easy to convert an electric blender into
a machine gun as one of these.