Why Your Poetry Sucks
EricR
"I was recently doing a bit of crawling around various peopleąs
personal home pages and it occurred to me that some one needs to
take these fucks to task for their atrocious butcheries of the
English language.
I refer of course to the prevalence on the net of illiterate
assholes who feel obligated to inflict the world with their, and I
use the term loosely, online poetry.
Now, before you assume that this is yet another attack on
YankTheChain Canadian Demon-Whore, Susie Biro, let me just say
that sheąs not the worst offender. Sheąs bad, but all fifteen year
old harlotąs are, and in that sense she can be given a bit of
license. No, we will not discuss Susie Biro here.
What we will be discussing in great detail is the work of several
self proclaimed łpoets˛ who seem to have no idea whatsoever how to
construct a thought outside of the realm of prose."
Read the whole article at
http://www.yankthechain.com/poetry.html
<a
href="http://www.yankthechain.com/poetry.html">yankthechain.com/poetry.html</a>
--
Yankthechain.com - articles, reviews, interviews, comics, assorted misanthropy and the Mark Hamill Watch .
www.yankthechain.com
j r sherman
chris, i think we've found you're other long-lost brother. heh...
love and kisses,
j r sherman
In article <ericr-21059...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, er...@yankthechain.com
says...
M. Otis Beard
EricR wrote in message ...
>Excerpt from the article Why Your Poetry Sucks at YanktheChain.com:
>
>"I was recently doing a bit of crawling around various peopleąs
> personal home pages and it occurred to me that some one needs
to
> take these fucks to task for their atrocious butcheries of the
> English language.
>
> I refer of course to the prevalence on the net of illiterate
> assholes who feel obligated to inflict the world with their,
and I
> use the term loosely, online poetry.
>
> Now, before you assume that this is yet another attack on
> YankTheChain Canadian Demon-Whore, Susie Biro, let me just say
> that sheąs not the worst offender. Sheąs bad, but all fifteen
year
> old harlotąs are, and in that sense she can be given a bit of
> license. No, we will not discuss Susie Biro here.
>
> What we will be discussing in great detail is the work of
several
> self proclaimed łpoets˛ who seem to have no idea whatsoever how
to
> construct a thought outside of the realm of prose."
>
>Read the whole article at
>http://www.yankthechain.com/poetry.html
You're absolutely right that 99% of the "poetry" that is posted to these
newsgroups is utter swill, but you're wrong to think that your own writing
is much better than that of the people whose drivel you're belittling. I
read your entire article, and you *don't* know how to write well.
As for the rest of you, let me just say that once upon a time, poetry was
a serious business. It was a High Art that could only be achieved through
years of intensely dedicated scholarship on the part of an extraordinarily
talented individual. If you think that churning out some feeble little
rhyme or badly-conceived bit of blank verse makes you a poet, then you
deserve to give all your money to the International Library of Poetry.
Remember: Jewel is not a poet, and in all likelihood, neither is anyone
reading this message.
-M. Otis Beard
j r sherman
>
> You're absolutely right that 99% of the "poetry" that is posted to these
>newsgroups is utter swill,
ya know, o, he wasn't talking about the newsgroups, he was talking about the
net, ya know, websites and shit, not usenet... and speak for your own newsgroups
sparky.
>but you're wrong to think that your own writing
>is much better than that of the people whose drivel you're belittling.
um... no. the drivel that eric displayed in his articule was bad, like biting
tinfoil with metal teeth fillings bad.
>I
>read your entire article, and you *don't* know how to write well.
better than the little girl he was beating up.
> As for the rest of you, let me just say that once upon a time, poetry was
>a serious business.
thanks god the times have changed.
>It was a High Art that could only be achieved through
>years of intensely dedicated scholarship on the part of an extraordinarily
>talented individual.
fucking liar. where do you get this crap? spare the elitist bullshit, idiot,
poetry is in everything, and everyone. okay, some write it better than others,
but spare me the "dedicated scholarship" crap, would you? you sound like some
wanna-be coffee house undergrad trying to impress his date.
>If you think that churning out some feeble little
>rhyme or badly-conceived bit of blank verse makes you a poet, then you
>deserve to give all your money to the International Library of Poetry.
or me. the email address is jr...@wenet.net. i will take payment in many
different forms. really.
>Remember: Jewel is not a poet,
no!!!!
>and in all likelihood, neither is anyone
>reading this message.
speak for your own newsgroup sparky, i gotta go, ya got me laughing at that
"serious poet" shit so hard i spit out my cigarette and started a fire.
Baneful
frequence of bad online poetry. I'm glad someone is taking measures to help
their own ego. God forbid a person could think they are half intelligent
without feeling the need to scour the web for victims of heredity in order to
inform them of their inferiority. Evolution just needs your little push.
Entertainment so often takes on the form of an inferiority complex, fuck, look
at Jerry Springer.
Phenobarbital,
---
Official ARC-T Spewer of Obscenity
---
On febrile summer nights I lie in my bed like a corpse listening to the uneasy
sound of crickets, and each moment is a dying ember of eternity placed in my
hand for me to do with what I wish.
Baneful
Baneful
otariusa
-felix
in all likelihood, neither is anyone
> reading this message.
>
>
> -M. Otis Beard
>
>
>
M. Otis Beard
j r sherman wrote in message <7i5gao$1r...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>>
>>Remember: Jewel is not a poet,
>
>no!!!!
>
>>reading this message.
>
>speak for your own newsgroup sparky, i gotta go, ya got me laughing at that
>"serious poet" shit so hard i spit out my cigarette and started a fire.
I take it you consider yourself more of a poet than Jewel. I doubt you
are, despite the fact that she writes garbage. So go ahead -- post your
best shot at it, monkeyboy.
-M. Otis Beard
M. Otis Beard
>>
>> You're absolutely right that 99% of the "poetry" that is posted to these
>>newsgroups is utter swill,
>
>ya know, o, he wasn't talking about the newsgroups, he was talking about
the
>net, ya know, websites and shit, not usenet... and speak for your own
newsgroups
>sparky.
They're ALL my newsgroups, punk.
>>but you're wrong to think that your own writing
>>is much better than that of the people whose drivel you're belittling.
>
>um... no. the drivel that eric displayed in his articule was bad, like
biting
>tinfoil with metal teeth fillings bad.
>>
>>I read your entire article, and you *don't* know how to write well.
>
>better than the little girl he was beating up.
>
>> As for the rest of you, let me just say that once upon a time, poetry
was
>>a serious business.
>
>thanks god the times have changed.
What an astonishingly ignorant remark. You're in junior high school,
aren't you?
>>It was a High Art that could only be achieved through
>>years of intensely dedicated scholarship on the part of an extraordinarily
>>talented individual.
>
>fucking liar. where do you get this crap? spare the elitist bullshit,
idiot,
>poetry is in everything, and everyone. okay, some write it better than
others,
>but spare me the "dedicated scholarship" crap, would you? you sound like
some
>wanna-be coffee house undergrad trying to impress his date.
It's quite well documented, but you'd have to actually be literate to find
that out.
Run along, now.
-M. Otis Beard
SLL
<bar...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
>j r sherman wrote in message <7i5gao$1r...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>>>
>>>Remember: Jewel is not a poet,
>>
>>no!!!!
>>
>>>and in all likelihood, neither is anyone
>>>reading this message.
>>
>>speak for your own newsgroup sparky, i gotta go, ya got me laughing at that
>>"serious poet" shit so hard i spit out my cigarette and started a fire.
>
>
> I take it you consider yourself more of a poet than Jewel. I doubt you
>are, despite the fact that she writes garbage. So go ahead -- post your
>best shot at it, monkeyboy.
Mr. Beard,
I have an understanding as to what it is that you say regarding poetry
as high art and dedicated scholarship. I also understand the
controversy against those with elitist ideals posted in the same
manner you (and the other guy) posted yours. Here is an illustration
to show you what I see.
I see an elite marathon runner who sails past "Joe Weekend Warrior"
bobbing up and down the street. Ms. Elite laughs and says, "Give it
up fat boy; you're cracking my sidewalk!" To which Joe responds,
"Some of us are better runners than others." The difference between
running marathons and writing poetry is that the finish line in poetry
is obscure(d).
Mr. Sherman was "fighting fire with fire," and now you're burning
hence your monkeyboy comment. "All" (ha!) I hear is, "My nads are
bigger 'n yours! :P ninny, ninny poo poo" :P <I wish you could hear
me sing this like so many kids on a playground sing>
That's okay, (I guess). That's what makes us human.
SLL (human and feeling more awake today)
Rev. MissPeter
How could you be so silly? Mr. Beard is the only true poet in this
newsgroup. In fact we should change the name to rec.poet.motisbeard. Then we
should all leave him alone to write his masterpiece. We are just pawns in
the Otis poem game.
MissPeter
otariusa <otar...@netcenter.net> wrote in message
news:yst13.637$zB1....@server1.news.adelphia.net...
> you scared me with the following. i hope its not true.
> -felix
>
>
>
> in all likelihood, neither is anyone
> > reading this message.
> >
> >
> > -M. Otis Beard
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Baneful
>How could you be so silly? Mr. Beard is the only true poet in this
>newsgroup. In fact we should change the name to rec.poet.motisbeard. Then we
>should all leave him alone to write his masterpiece. We are just pawns in
>the Otis poem game.
>
This game is getting old. Otis, you are full of crap, and your version of
humor makes me feel lethargic and nauseated. Please show some skin or leave.
j r sherman
>>>
>>> You're absolutely right that 99% of the "poetry" that is posted to these
>>>newsgroups is utter swill,
>>
>>ya know, o, he wasn't talking about the newsgroups, he was talking about
>the
>>net, ya know, websites and shit, not usenet... and speak for your own
>newsgroups
>>sparky.
>
>
> They're ALL my newsgroups, punk.
i never see you post poetry in any of your newsgroups otie.
>>> As for the rest of you, let me just say that once upon a time, poetry
>was
>>>a serious business.
>>
>>thanks god the times have changed.
>
>
> What an astonishingly ignorant remark. You're in junior high school,
>aren't you?
i take it this is how you argue, someone disagrees with you, just accuse them of
geing in jr. high. well, to tell the truth, i am in jr. high, but only for the
girls.
as for ignorant remarks..... i need only go as far as your last remark.
>>fucking liar. where do you get this crap? spare the elitist bullshit,
>idiot,
>>poetry is in everything, and everyone. okay, some write it better than
>others,
>>but spare me the "dedicated scholarship" crap, would you? you sound like
>some
>>wanna-be coffee house undergrad trying to impress his date.
>
>
>It's quite well documented, but you'd have to actually be literate to find
>that out.
actually little dick, what is just as well documented is the fact that mere
peasants, folks without the advanced education you keep insisting is needed to
be a "good" poet(whatever that is), were instrumental in advancing the poetic
form that we know today. the court troubadors of the Duke of Aquitane, in the
12th century, were pretty much made up from the peasant class. when the Duke's
daughter, the rather obscure(perhaps to you) Eleanor of Aquitane, became queen
of France, she brought those same "peasant" troubadors with her to court. and
then when she decided to marry up, by hooking the more powerful soon-to-be-
Henry II of England, that same poetic-troubador tradition moved to that court as
well. the poetic tradition that we possess today (at least in Western culture)
came from these peasant poets. poetry as we know it today wasn't taught to the
educated aristocracy, it was given to them from the peasant classes. Chaucer was
hardly the most educated man of his time, Shakespeare was a "mere" writer of
comical little diversions, trying to make money, Dante was the son of a small
landowner, and was pretty much self taught in everything he learned. now if you
want to say these writers dedicated themselves to their craft, hey fine, i won't
argue with you. but if start implying that somehow they were the products of
some special education and class, then you really do enjoy sounding like a
pretentious fuck trying to impress his date. poetry can come from anywhere.
great poetry comes from writers who work at it. schmucks who want to define a
boundry for it's existance only want to sound like they're trying to impress
their date.
you run along now otie, daddy's busy.
Misdrenias
>aren't you?
So what if he is? This newsgroup is for those in junior high and senior high.
Thats what it's called alt.TEENS.poetry.and.stuff. You keep talking about how
you need to be a dedicated scholar. If you are one, then you probably
shouldn't be here cause you're not a teen or you're a teen genius, and if you
are the latter, shut the fuck up insulting us cause we're not as smart as you.
If you are not either of these, shut up saying how everyone else needs to be so
fucking great and you're not even like that yourself.
~Misdrenias
Go to http://misdrenias.cjb.net
and take a stroll through the unknown.
ICQ: 9494512
j r sherman
>>
>>no!!!!
>>
>>>reading this message.
>>
>>speak for your own newsgroup sparky, i gotta go, ya got me laughing at that
>>"serious poet" shit so hard i spit out my cigarette and started a fire.
>
>
> I take it you consider yourself more of a poet than Jewel.
i went back and looked over my original post, didn't see where anywhere where i
said that, is that another form of argument for you, just sort of make up the
arguement, in your own mind, as you go along?
>I doubt you are,
since you never post any poetry, i have that same doubt about you.
>despite the fact that she writes garbage.
see? we agree on something.
>So go ahead -- post your
>best shot at it, monkeyboy.
what, and give you an orgasm? heh, no thanks, i'm waiting for a better offer.
bya otie.
cr...@my-dejanews.com
Dig the pernicious horsemanure! All right they're vapid, but at
least Hallmark Cards protect the integrity of the art.
Don't you think poets suffer enough in this world without arrogant
goobers planting eyesores like this in our public domains? Oh, let's
all howl together, "THEY HAVE THE RIGHT" as though they are somehow
protecting us by abusing us.
Wise up.
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Prembone
>fucking liar. where do you get this crap? spare the elitist bullshit, idiot,
>poetry is in everything, and everyone. okay, some write it better than others,
>but spare me the "dedicated scholarship" crap, would you? you sound like some
>wanna-be coffee house undergrad trying to impress his date.
"wanna-be coffee house undergrad" -- great phrase. Let's see the
poem. Try not to be too elitist when you write it. ;-)
All Homage To The Elton!!!
Prembone (remove b.s. phrase when replying)
The Elton John Worship Page
http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/elton/
Prembone
>speak for your own newsgroup sparky, i gotta go, ya got me laughing at that
>"serious poet" shit so hard i spit out my cigarette and started a fire.
Mr. Sherman, I am highly offended. I, for one, am a Serious Poet.
And I know it. Here is the product of many seconds of Literary Labor:
Have you ever burned the spinach
While writing in your journal?
Have you ever seen a work of art
In the guise of urinal?
Have you ever allowed your mind to pass
Over paths infernal?
The spinach is burned,
But I am fed,
And a gentleman waits
To use the head.
[ (c) 1997 Prembone.]
Now, to **fully** appreciate the subtle symbolic syntactical
syllogistic syllabication would take hours and hours of deep analysis
over a pint or two of Guinness. But one can readily appreciate a few
obvious points, e.g., the double entendre of "guise"
(guys..urinal...you know).
And here is my latest Coffee Shop Exegesis. I have entitled it
"CyberX Bookshelf Found," on account of the entire poem being
constructed from book titles "found" on the reading shelves of the
CyberX coffee shop.
CYBERX BOOKSHELF FOUND
Small is Beautiful:
Secret formula soap opera.
Hit & Run, The HP Way.
Curious, George?
Lesbian culture flying.
Satan says symptoms
spoiled priest.
Paris trout:
Allan Ginsberg.
[ (c) 1999 Prembone.]
In closing, I hope that in offering this small sampling I have
enhanced your comprehension of the True Calling of Being a Serious
Poet. But if you insist on defending amateur drivel and doggerel, may
I recommend the following URL:
Good Doggerel, Needs Home
http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/gdnh/
Seriously Yours,
** Prembone ** (remove b.s. phrase when replying)
The Prembone Pages: Humor, Opinion, Parody, Satire
http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/
"The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible." - Oscar Wilde
Aeon000000
>are the latter, shut the fuck up insulting us cause we're not as smart as
>you.
lowest-common denominator mentality really is pathetic and despciable.
love and hugs and such,
Aeon
"Sin after sin I have endured, yet the wounds I bear are the wounds of love." -
"Genocide" Judas Priest
"A lover is a blade" - guess who.
"Genius is what lesser men call insanity and perversion" - guess who.
Aeon000000
>> As for the rest of you, let me just say that once upon a time, poetry was
>>a serious business.
>
>thanks god the times have changed.
>
>>years of intensely dedicated scholarship on the part of an extraordinarily
>>talented individual.
>
>poetry is in everything, and everyone. okay, some write it better than
>others,
on both of those points, he is right.
all of these amtuer no-talelents have really brough tthe art form down, and it
no longer holds the respect it once did.
Misdrenias
>>are the latter, shut the fuck up insulting us cause we're not as smart as
>>you.
>
>lowest-common denominator mentality really is pathetic and despciable.
>
>
im sorry, but I really have no idea what this means, would you mind explaning
it to me?
Misdrenias
it well. Oh, and "Goodpoetry" is defined only by the reader. It doesn't
matter how sucky anyone else thinks it is. It depends on the impact of the
reader. No one has had the exact same experiences and someone who has had
personal experiences to that of the writer probably would like it a lot more
than the rest of the other fucks. There are too many wasteful idiots for you
to care what they think.
And as for Jewel, I don't think she is the best poet in the world, but I do
like some of her works, and they're a lot better than some of the crap I see
here. (Oh, and btw, some of the crap I'm referring to is mine.)
All I'm trying to say is that people have their own personal opinions on how
good something is.
>> Jewel is not a poet
>
>fuck you. Jewel can call herself whatever she god damn likes.
>she writes poetry, it might be shit, but if u have even the vaguest hint of
>the
>definition of poetry in the English Language, you'll acknowledge her as a
>poet.
>So is that moron who posted a poem in red writting on pick background
>entitled
>You Are My Soul.
>
>Niether of them may be good. But good poetry is an entirely different
>concept.
>Good poetry is defined subjectively, and we both know (thats if u have
>greater
>intelligence than a lobotomised carrot) that arguing about what constitutes a
>good poem is basically useless, given the afformentioned subjective nature of
>the discussion.
>
>You wanna argue against this, I suggest you go check www.dictionary.com for
>the
>definition of poetry.
>
> HoL
Ruswa
j r sherman wrote
>
>actually little dick, what is just as well documented is the fact that mere
>peasants, folks without the advanced education you keep insisting is needed
to
>be a "good" poet(whatever that is), were instrumental in advancing the
poetic
>form that we know today.
snip
a fact lost on many, but note how some who do dedicate themselves to their
writing are sensitive to their roots - Kazantzakis's devotion to demotic
greek, for example, getting back to the language and dialects that gave
birth to the "High Art".
R.
HoL
> It's quite well documented, but you'd have to actually be literate to find
> that out.
K E A T S
HoL
> newsgroups is utter swill,
I'd put it at 95%.
1 in 20 seems about right.
Not surprising really. How many people do you think Eliot wrote that never got
published?
HoL
> humor makes me feel lethargic and nauseated. Please show some skin or leave.
Yeah, we want blood!
If not Baneful will menstrate over you, and we will pretend!
SLL
<bar...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
>j r sherman wrote in message <7i5gao$1r...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>>In article <H%q13.418$eC3....@news.uswest.net>, "M. says...
>>>
>>> You're absolutely right that 99% of the "poetry" that is posted to these
>>>newsgroups is utter swill,
>>
>>ya know, o, he wasn't talking about the newsgroups, he was talking about
>the
>>net, ya know, websites and shit, not usenet... and speak for your own
>newsgroups
>>sparky.
>
>
> They're ALL my newsgroups, punk.
>
>>>but you're wrong to think that your own writing
>>>is much better than that of the people whose drivel you're belittling.
>>
>>um... no. the drivel that eric displayed in his articule was bad, like
>biting
>>tinfoil with metal teeth fillings bad.
>>>
>>>I read your entire article, and you *don't* know how to write well.
>>
>>better than the little girl he was beating up.
>>
>>> As for the rest of you, let me just say that once upon a time, poetry
>was
>>>a serious business.
>>
>>thanks god the times have changed.
>
>
> What an astonishingly ignorant remark. You're in junior high school,
>aren't you?
>
>>>It was a High Art that could only be achieved through
>>>years of intensely dedicated scholarship on the part of an extraordinarily
>>>talented individual.
>>
>>fucking liar. where do you get this crap? spare the elitist bullshit,
>idiot,
>>poetry is in everything, and everyone. okay, some write it better than
>others,
>>but spare me the "dedicated scholarship" crap, would you? you sound like
>some
>>wanna-be coffee house undergrad trying to impress his date.
>
>
> It's quite well documented, but you'd have to actually be literate to find
>that out.
>
> Run along, now.
I really don't want to show you guys mine. That would mean surgery or
x-rays or some other invasive procedure in order to expose them.
I want to undercut the "monkeyboy," "sparky," "junior high school,"
"crap" type of remarks in order to examine the concept of "dedicated
scholarship," but that would require some investigative procedure in
order to expose it.
SLL (bigger 'nads; just trust her :p)
> -M. Otis Beard
>
>
>
SLL
oh, you boys, settle down. just because you can't see mine doesn't
mean mine aren't bigger. :p
SLL (a REAL woman; shall we start that thread again??)
On 22 May 1999 09:22:13 -0700, j r sherman <jr...@wenet.net> wrote:
>In article <4Ht13.475$eC3....@news.uswest.net>, "M. says...
>>
>>
>>j r sherman wrote in message <7i5gao$1r...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>>>>
>>>>Remember: Jewel is not a poet,
>>>
>>>no!!!!
>>>
>>>>and in all likelihood, neither is anyone
>>>>reading this message.
>>>
>>>speak for your own newsgroup sparky, i gotta go, ya got me laughing at that
>>>"serious poet" shit so hard i spit out my cigarette and started a fire.
>>
>>
SLL
wrote:
>> You're absolutely right that 99% of the "poetry" that is posted to these
>> newsgroups is utter swill,
>
>I'd put it at 95%.
>
>1 in 20 seems about right.
I feel pretty good thinking of the probability that 1/5 to 1 in 20 of
my poems defies utter swill given either of the assessments above.
Thanks!!! :) er, um, but what does this mean?? might it be subutter
swill?
su butter swill ... su butters will ... sub utter... subu tterswill
... subut ters will, okay, 'nough w/ the fragmenting. onward!
(hey G, hope yer reading, margin was wrong and possibility was less
accurate than probability; however, might there have been a margin of
error in the test that measured your memory? if so, that'd put a
whole new twist on the probability of the accuracy of your memory ...
it took me a long time to realize this, but even the sloww... well,
you know.)
>Not surprising really. How many people do you think Eliot wrote that never got
>published?
Eliot never wrote me, and I've been published three times!! wheeee!
oh, well two of those weren't poems. guess those don't count.
>> Jewel is not a poet
>
>fuck you. Jewel can call herself whatever she god damn likes.
>she writes poetry, it might be shit, but if u have even the vaguest hint of the
>definition of poetry in the English Language, you'll acknowledge her as a poet.
or if u have even a hint of the vaguest definition of poetry,
acknowledge her as a poet. hey! here's a contest for everyone. find
the vaguest def. of poetry, post it, and post the published source.
are these rules clear? I get to judge! nya, nya. :p. here's your
motivational prize offer. if you win, I will not write a personalized
poem for you. all losers must suffer! i.e. (suffer) their very own
personalized poem dedicated to them by me!
>So is that moron who posted a poem in red writting on pick background entitled
>You Are My Soul.
>
>Niether of them may be good. But good poetry is an entirely different concept.
>Good poetry is defined subjectively, and we both know (thats if u have greater
>intelligence than a lobotomised carrot) that arguing about what constitutes a
>good poem is basically useless, given the afformentioned subjective nature of
>the discussion.
>
>You wanna argue against this, I suggest you go check www.dictionary.com for the
>definition of poetry.
yeah! do that! enter my contest!!!!
SLL
> HoL
>
M. Otis Beard
SLL wrote in message <37475d3a....@news.gte.net>...
>
>I want to undercut the "monkeyboy," "sparky," "junior high school,"
>"crap" type of remarks in order to examine the concept of "dedicated
>scholarship," but that would require some investigative procedure in
>order to expose it.
Hey, I wasn't trying to start a flamewar, but if I am attacked, I tend to
respond in kind.
The reason that I feel so bitter about the vast body of awful doggerel
that passes for poetry is because that awful doggerel drags a lot of decent
writing down with it. Poetry has lost its credibility and its importance in
the world because any half-literate ape with a moon-june rhyme and no
particular knowledge of anything whatsoever can go around proclaiming itself
a poet without being challenged. By all means, WRITE your rhymes, and have
fun with it. . . but don't delude yourself into thinking that this alone
makes you a poet.
As long as you're looking up the word 'poetry' and trying to come up with
a concise definition of same, please look up the word 'poetaster' as well.
Then take a good, long look in the mirror. Or at a picture of Jewel.
If you decide that you really do aspire to the title of Poet, and you
think you have the dedication and the raw talent to make it, then hit the
books, and best of luck to you.
-M. Otis Beard
SLL
Will any of this help me look into a mirror and see the face of
Jewel??
SLL (ah, early twenties, slender, rich who cares if she writes ____)
P.s. I'm off to work. Maybe I'll be more serious later this
afternoon. :)
> -M. Otis Beard
>
>
>
M. Otis Beard
Max King wrote in message <7i5kvv$2...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>...
>
> Dear Mr. Otis Beard,
> I couldn't resist responding to your most heated reply
> of eric yankthechain's article.
>
>
>In article <H%q13.418$eC3....@news.uswest.net>,
> "M. Otis Beard" <bar...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
>> As for the rest of you, let me just say that once upon a time, poetry
was
>>a serious business.
>
> poetry was NEVER a serious business. As a matter of fact, poetry is
> not a business at all, as I've expounded on previously in this group.
> Check the top 1000 richest people in the world. You won't find a single
> writer that atributes their wealth to writing poetry.
> Poetry is ignored by Madison Avenue, Wall Street, Hollywood
> and just about every major corporation out there.
> And even when they do use poetry in business,
> it is menial and trivializes the art.
> The 'academic' society of poetry is made up mostly of
> English professors and the like. Few can relate to
> any sizable audience because their writing is often
> esoteric and steeped in language beyond the
> the capabilites of most readers. Of course there are exceptions...
The phrase "serious business" frequently (as in this case) has NOTHING to
do with commerce -- It simply indicates something non-frivolous.
>>It was a High Art that could only be achieved through
>>years of intensely dedicated scholarship on the part of an extraordinarily
>>talented individual.
>
> how far back would you like to go. At one time poetry
> was a required main topic of curriculum. But back then folks wore
toga's
> or those cute little stockings strapped to the knees.
What on bog's green Earth does fashion have to do with it? You seem to be
saying that poetry shouldn't be taught in schools because students wear
pants.
> Scholastic or formal education of poetry does not
> a poet make.
That's why I said "intensely dedicated scholarship on the part of an
extraordinarily talented individual." You can teach or learn technique, but
talent is something you either have or lack. Raw talent can be an
awe-inspiring thing, but talent without training leaves much potential
unrealized.
>One more reality check. Dig into your poetic
> library there and tell me how many of the poets of the last
> 200 years had no formal poetry education whatsoever.
I didn't say anything about "formal poetry education" in my post. I said
"dedicated scholarship" and that's what I meant. Autodidactic scholarship
is still scholarship, and anyone with the capability of reading this
newsgroup has every opportunity to educate themselves in the fine art of
writing poetry. Sadly, most don't bother. Far too many of you think that
you can write poetry just because 1.) you know what a rhyme is, and 2.)
you're full of angst or in love.
> You
> might be surprised. I'm not against poetry education
> in any way, I feel everyone should know the basics
> of rhyme, meter and all of the other various techniques.
> And you should read as much poetry from others as possible.
Not everyone does know the basics, and that's precisely my point. MOST
don't know the basics. Sounds to me like we agree on this point. . . pity
that you didn't take the time to read what I actually wrote before replying
and stuffing my mouth full of things I never said.
> Many people write as a release
> for daily frustrations or just for a way to express themselves.
Yes, and many people do so without any knowledge of the fundamentals of
poetry. What they do is NOT poetry, it is therapy and nothing more. If I
picked up a saxophone and started blowing on it and diddling the keys
without any clue as to how to actually play the saxophone or any other
musical instrument, would you call the sounds I made 'music' or 'noise'?
Would it make a difference if I said that making sounds in that fashion
allowed me to release my inner tension?
The difference between me abusing a saxophone and a jazz musician playing
a saxophone is simple: the jazz musician knows the rules before he breaks
them. Similarly, James Joyce knew the rules of English composition before
he wrote Finnegan's Wake. If I had a nickel up my nose for every time I've
heard some ignorant hack's scribblings described as "Joycean" then I'd have
an awfully big nose.
> And the Internet has given them the capability to share it with others.
Thus drowning out the signal with an ocean of noise.
> Whether it sucks or not, is not the issue. The important thing is that
> they are attempting to write poetry, which has always been like
> trying to get a kid to eat their vegetables. That is why
> poetry on the internet is so important.
Have to disagree with you there. Getting kids to write poetry is easy.
Getting them to READ poetry is the difficult part.
> I prefer to nurture
> aspiring poets.
I prefer to call 'em like I see 'em, and nurture the aspiring poets with
honesty and education.
> We are all poets in a sense,
I don't agree, but I understand why you would think so. I'm assuming
you're American or Canadian. . . we New Worlders tend to allow just this
kind of populist, egalitarian thinking to color all of our attitudes, and
while it seems wholly appropriate and even noble in a lot of areas of
endeavor, it doesn't hold water when you're talking about art. It's so very
American to think that you can be an artist without learning the basics
first. Europe is laughing, and the joke's on us.
> Poetry is the language of experience, and to experience poetry
> you must live it.
It also helps an awful lot if you have some reading and writing skills.
[INSERT SOUND OF MY HAND SMACKING MY OWN FOREHEAD HERE]
Look, you don't LIVE poetry. . . you simply LIVE. If you have the
honesty, the sensitivity, the talent and the training to write about your
internal journey, then you have the capacity to create meaningful literature
no matter what your life is like.
> give 'em a break there OT. Would you rather have them playing with
> guns or spiking their veins with cloud juice.
No, I'd rather have them reading and studying poetry instead of mindlessly
wanking around with it until their lack of understanding and lack of
progress causes them to lose interest altogether.
BTW, I have some extra question marks here if you need some. Take all you
want: ?????????????????? Let me know if you run out again. ;--D
> Kids need poetry,
Then they should be taught to differentiate between poetry and
masturbatory bullshit, not encouraged to think of themselves as accomplished
poets before they've learned the fundamentals.
-M. Otis Beard
Baneful
>masturbatory bullshit, not encouraged to think of themselves as accomplished
>poets before they've learned the fundamentals.
Darling...What does it matter to you? People have always written what can be
termed as bad poetry, people always will. We are in a forum in which people
are trying to express to themselves and others different segments of their
life. You don't have to be here. you could be reading Gary Snyder by candle in
the wilderness at midnight. When you come upon a poetry newsgroup, not only
that but a TEEN poetry newsgroup (we know where your head is at), you are
certain to face some innalienable truths: There will be bad poetry, There will
be cliched lines, There will be a lack of flowing, rhythmic verse. You can
lecture all you want, people aren't going to see one of your obnoxious posts
and rush off to study rime and meter. Constructive criticism would be useful
rather than what you said in a post I just saw ::digs it up::
RemarQ User wrote in message ...
>
>seems like a bunch of bull shit
>
Otis Beard wrote only:
You said it, not me.
Honestly, don't you have anything better to do than pick on children?
HoL
u have big warty ears Ms. SLL.
evil evil Troll.
in future, just for you, i will spend time re-reading my posts.
Hail Eris
HoL
Cliff n' Tina
Now that the discussion has raged on,(and on), has anyone here taken time off from defining poetry, good and
bad, to writing any, good or bad? I apologize if someone has already said as much, I just couldn't wade
through any more of this string as I managed to already.
--
So...you wish to escape from http://home.earthlink.net/~cliffsongs/ do you?
M. Otis Beard
SDLYNCH1 wrote in message <19990523174658...@ng42.aol.com>...
>well why instead of wasting your time in this dumb flame war post a thing
or
>two on rhyme and meter and help those of us that have the dedication to
learn.
>Some of us do not have the funds to go enroll in college courses or online
>courses that teach us these things and most places that I have come across
>online are not free. I am all for improving myself but I don't have the
funds
>to do so. I can't speak for any others on this ng, but I would greatly
>appreciate a link or two to help me out.
> Shelly
Shelly,
You don't need money to educate yourself when you have the Internet. Here
are some links to help you out. . . I hope they are of use to you.
Free English courses online: http://www.study.com/
An excellent glossary of poetic terms:
http://shoga.wwa.com/~rgs/glossary.html
A writer's resource page:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/5949/links.html
Above all, a writer must first and foremost be a reader. Check out
PROJECT GUTENBERG, a large collection of electronic texts that are in the
public domain. PG is loaded with classics and must-reads:
http://promo.net/pg/
-M. Otis Beard
ian
HoL wrote in message <37470E4A...@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>...
>
>
>> It's quite well documented, but you'd have to actually be literate to
find
>> that out.
>
for God?
Ian,
giveita...@hotmail.com
"Midnight frost -
I'd borrow
The scarecrow's shirt"
Issa
Cliff n' Tina
And a fine opinion it is, Ben, thanks.
Ben Hemler
and I have crossed paths again. 2 things, 1. Whats with the stupid shit talking
about junior high? when the last post i sent to you you wrote some dinky little
poem about it and said i made you cry. and number 2. IN my opinion everyone is
a poet! you are a poet if you write something with meaning, if you write to have
fun writing you are a poet, if you write to express your feelings you are a
poet. and if only poeple who were overly educated and pompous stuffed shirts who
looked down upon everyone else where poets well then by-god, poetry would be
very very boring.
Ben
"Just my own opinion"
Misdrenias
it when people say "You're too young to do anything good." Your youth is when
your life begins and if you do nothing in your youth and are demotivated in
your youth, you will most likely be a failure as an adult.
Is this what happened to you Otis? Did your parents never encourage you and
now you are a failure? Do you not want this generation to have what you didn't
so you just demotivate them like your parents did you to? Is that all your
problem is?
>Subject: Re: Why Your Poetry Sucks
>From: Ben Hemler <benh...@home.com>
>Date: 5.23.99 7:51 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3748A2E9...@home.com>
~Misdrenias
Go to http://misdrenias.cjb.net
and take a stroll through the unknown.
ICQ: 9494512
"Wise man says 'Never use a bank with the initials F. U.'" -anon
Baneful
>now you are a failure? Do you not want this generation to have what you
>didn't
>so you just demotivate them like your parents did you to? Is that all your
>problem is?
>
No, I think our friend Otis is just one of those people who helped coin the
term "asshole."
Misdrenias
>No, I think our friend Otis is just one of those people who helped coin the
>term "asshole."
>
well, that too
SLL
wrote:
>
>u have big warty ears Ms. SLL.
>evil evil Troll.
this is the cutest thing anyone has ever said to me in a long, long
time!
I am Dali troll! :)
>in future, just for you, i will spend time re-reading my posts.
's aw right. no biggie. in fact, leave the fun in them. no need
for tight undies. ha! :) like I don't own none myself. ;)
>Hail Eris
Hail Er (who?)
SLL (after a momentary pause to consult dictionary ... Oh! Eris! :)
>HoL
>
HoL
>
> Hail Er (who?)
>
> SLL (after a momentary pause to consult dictionary ... Oh! Eris! :)
dictionary won't help you now....
HoL
SLL
wrote:
this leaves an autumn's worth of scatterings, for me, which I could
rake up limited piles of the leaves of (any word might work)
and some might pounce into the heap of these leaves
where the scattering brings some joy.
or the wind may stir and blend those leaves
as though the wind were shaking drinks
without lids
****
you know what HoL?
you may be right.
SLL
HoL
Jody McGinness
> Hey, I wasn't trying to start a flamewar, but if I am attacked, I tend to
> respond in kind.
>
> The reason that I feel so bitter about the vast body of awful doggerel
> that passes for poetry is because that awful doggerel drags a lot of decent
> writing down with it. Poetry has lost its credibility and its importance in
> the world because any half-literate ape with a moon-june rhyme and no
> particular knowledge of anything whatsoever can go around proclaiming itself
> a poet without being challenged. By all means, WRITE your rhymes, and have
> fun with it. . . but don't delude yourself into thinking that this alone
> makes you a poet.
> As long as you're looking up the word 'poetry' and trying to come up with
> a concise definition of same, please look up the word 'poetaster' as well.
Hey Otis, you might be interested in my website: www.poetaster.com
I put your picture up in honor of your visit.
-Jody
> Then take a good, long look in the mirror. Or at a picture of Jewel.
> If you decide that you really do aspire to the title of Poet, and you
> think you have the dedication and the raw talent to make it, then hit the
> books, and best of luck to you.
>
>
> -M. Otis Beard
>
>
>
>
>
---http://www.poetaster.com---
giddyap.
Sam Barasch
99% of poetry written *anywhere* is utter swill. 95% of *published poetry* is utter swill.
sorry.
-Sam
: You're absolutely right that 99% of the "poetry" that is posted to these
: newsgroups is utter swill, but you're wrong to think that your own writing
: is much better than that of the people whose drivel you're belittling. I
barrycoffey
E-mail if you wanna chat
Misdrenias
thing of the 20th century.
~Misdrenias
M. Otis Beard
Jody McGinness wrote in message ...
>
>Hey Otis, you might be interested in my website: www.poetaster.com
>I put your picture up in honor of your visit.
That's very nice, Jody. Now if you could just get it through your
potato-like head that the apostrophe is not a "here comes an s" symbol, you
might be able to say you've learned something today.
-M. Otis Beard
Scream
anyway?
> seinfeld does
oh, people laugh... people laugh.
~Scream
Button Presser
Is everyone who can wield a chisel a sculptor?
Is everyone who can dip a brush in paint a painter?
If I tell bad jokes, and nobody laughs, can I call myself a comedian anyway?
Dave
http://www.thepentagon.com/buttonpresser
Ben Hemler wrote in message <3748A2E9...@home.com>...
Misdrenias
>Is everyone who can dip a brush in paint a painter?
yeah
>If I tell bad jokes, and nobody laughs, can I call myself a comedian anyway?
seinfeld does
SLL
wrote:
>indeed :)
how dialectical! ;)
SLL
SLL
<bar...@uswest.net> wrote:
>the apostrophe is not a "here comes an s" symbol, you
>might be able to say you've learned something today.
my fingers have minds of their own, Otis. they must get it through
their thick heads that the apostrophe is not a "here comes an s"
symbol. *** I *** know this, BUT do *** they *** know this??
**nnnoooo**! the crazy little conspiratory fiends!
now, if you can be all nice to Jody and accept that poetry is poetry
on any level of vagueness, I ** just ** MIGHT tell you that your
explanation of what an apostrophe is not is cute! :p
and Jody! you be nice! and put away those squirly magazines this
instant!!
SLL
HoL
>
> how dialectical! ;)
i like being emperical.
[HoL]
ernesto
che guevara
Ben Hemler
statements iin my posts oh well. 1st thing, My dad sure thinks hes funny,
and man all he gets is groans. I think that the boundaries as to what you
are is basically a gray-scale that is not particularly easy to argue, it
falls in line with the beauty is in the eye of the beholder bit. ONes
persons poet could be just awful to someone else. Also I think the
differance sometimes is like in al those things that you mentioned i would
say yes they are those things. BUt when someone isnt quite as good as
someone else I htink sometimes that is the differance between an amateur
and professional status. Anyways I liked your point though.
SLL
wrote:
>> >indeed :)
>>
>> how dialectical! ;)
>
>i like being emperical.
at the risk of sounding sophistical, I wonder whether you leave
something out by limiting yourself like that; however, I shall read
you carefully. You *like* being emperical. I admit, I limit myself.
It's comfortable.
SLL
> [HoL]
>
>ernesto
>che guevara
>
>
Chris Keelan
>
> u have big warty ears Ms. SLL.
> evil evil Troll.
>
>
>
> HoL
All Hail Discordia!
C'mon, HoL, did you have your hot dog last Friday?
- Chris
P.S. Seen the "fnords" yet?
Jody McGinness
On Mon, 24 May 1999, M. Otis Beard wrote:
>
> Jody McGinness wrote in message ...
> >
> >Hey Otis, you might be interested in my website: www.poetaster.com
> >I put your picture up in honor of your visit.
>
>
> That's very nice, Jody. Now if you could just get it through your
> potato-like head that the apostrophe is not a "here comes an s" symbol, you
> might be able to say you've learned something today.
Hey Otie, thanks for the advice. I'll take it to heart. Say, were you born
an asshole, or did you have to, like, take lessons?
-Jody
>
> -M. Otis Beard
>
>
>
>
>
M. Otis Beard
Max King wrote in message <7ick92$d...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>...
>In article <EIS13.1310$eC3.1...@news.uswest.net>,> >lots of gratuitous snipping by Max<
>
>> Far too many of you think that
>>you can write poetry just because 1.) you know what a rhyme is, and 2.)
>>you're full of angst or in love.
>
> generalization Ots, never a good thing. I call them cheap shortcuts.
"Far too many of you" is the phrase I used. That does NOT indicate a
generalization, because "too many" is a relative term that could refer to a
subset of any size. If my house is full of people, and even one or two of
those people are deranged killers, then there are (in my opinion) too many
deranged killers in my house. If I were making a generalization, I'd be
painting everyone with the same brush.
> Sure we get our fair share of teens in love rhyming their way
> to rehabilitation.
Therefore you have no grounds to contest my statement that there are "far
too many" of them, unless you do so purely as a matter of opinion.
>> What they do is NOT poetry, it is therapy and nothing more.
>
> and what in melancholy karma is wrong with that. It may not be poetry
> to your sophisticated ideals, but if it's poetry to them, let it be.
>
>>> And the Internet has given them the capability to share it with others.
>>
>> Thus drowning out the signal with an ocean of noise.
>
> that 'ocean of noise' you refer to, is actually the future leaders
> expressing themselves.
I hope the "future leaders" improve their reading and writing skills
before they take over the world. Maybe if we challenge them once in a while
instead of mollycoddling them and praising their lamest, tiniest efforts,
they'll learn to take some pride in what they do.
> An opportunity my generation didn't have
> until recently. We had to struggle with snobby academics
> and their short-sighted discretions, self-serving publishers
> and producers, and biased politicians who would only listen
> when you stuffed their mouths full of green. Now they have
> no choice but to listen because the voices have been amplified
> through the wonderful communications medium we call the net.
> Be nice to them OT they may just save your pension.
When did it become mandatory for snobby academics, self-serving publishers
and producers, and biased politicians to read Usenet? Do you live on some
other planet, or have there been some strange changes here on Earth while I
wasn't looking?
>> Have to disagree with you there. Getting kids to write poetry is easy.
>>Getting them to READ poetry is the difficult part.
>
> Sure it's difficult to get them to read poetry, if you're
> throwing Beowolfe, Shakespeare or Shelley at them. Most kids
> have no concept of what it means because they can't relate to it.
> But throw Cummings, Hughes, Ginsberg, Bukowski or some of the
> modern lyrical poets at them and voila, it scores.
Then why don't you? While you're at it, you might point out to them that
cummings, Hughes, Ginsberk, Bukowski et al took the time to learn the rules
before they broke them, and that's part of what makes the difference between
their work and crap.
> Why?
Who cares why? As long as they're reading, they're learning.
> Because
> although poetry is a universal language, not all poetry relates
> to everyone. I love interpretation of poetry, especially the
> master poets. But it's not for everyone. And that's why most
> youngsters burn out on poetry, they are introduced to
> a language that does not relate to their real lives. They jump
> on this news group and read some of our more renowned writers
> and they feel they can connect. I'm not degrading the importance
> of classical or traditional poets, I just feel that they are not
> always the ideal for introducing poetry to the younger set.
I'm not insisting that they study the interpretation of poetry, I'm
insisting that they learn the fundamentals of English composition before
they start calling their efforts poetry. I'm insisting that they learn how
to walk instead of calling their crawlings flight and being satisfied with
that. I'm exerting a little upward pressure on them.
>>> We are all poets in a sense,
>>
>> I don't agree, but I understand why you would think so. I'm assuming
>>you're American or Canadian. . .
>
> the former.
>
>>e New Worlders tend to allow just this
>>kind of populist, egalitarian thinking to color all of our attitudes, and
>>while it seems wholly appropriate and even noble in a lot of areas of
>>endeavor, it doesn't hold water when you're talking about art. It's so
very
>>American to think that you can be an artist without learning the basics
>>first. Europe is laughing, and the joke's on us.
>
> Ehhh, works both ways. Some artists have studied till they
> were aquamarine and got nowhere, others didn't follow the
> formalist school and they're highly recognized. I really don't
> feel it's a legitimate criteria. The definition of art is as
> varied as the shape of clouds in the sky. Sure Europe has
> a much richer history of formal training, but I don't think
> they have any more creative outlets than we do.
You're just rabid about this formal training thing, aren't you? I never
mentioned any sort of formal training, because what we're talking about here
is LEARNING THE BASICS before you call yourself an artist. Such learning is
in no way dependent on formal training.
> >If you have the
>>honesty, the sensitivity, the talent and the training to write about your
>>internal journey, then you have the capacity to create meaningful
literature
>>no matter what your life is like.
>
> my point exactly.
Funny, that wasn't your point before. You don't think very clearly
sometimes, do you?
>> BTW, I have some extra question marks here if you need some. Take all
you
>>want: ?????????????????? Let me know if you run out again. ;--D
>
> another traditional formalist attempt at keeping the
> the grammatical grass green??????? There's a few extra
> so you can feel gratified.
It's called a joke. I even put a little winking, smiling face at the end
so humor-impaired people would get it, too. Unfortunately, I didn't realize
that the lack of proper punctuation in your writing indicated a case of
punctuation blindness so severe that it prevents you from seeing semicolons
and dashes as well as interrogatives.
>>> Kids need poetry,
>>
>> Then they should be taught to differentiate between poetry and
>>masturbatory bullshit, not encouraged to think of themselves as
accomplished
>>poets before they've learned the fundamentals.
>
> I don't disagree with your basic premise of fundamental education,
> what irks me is the all too common academic attitude of
> dismissing young writers just because they haven't fully
> developed they're talents.
Then why don't you harangue someone who has expressed that attitude? I'm
not telling anyone to quit writing poetry, I'm just trying to get them to
learn the basics before they start calling themselves poets. How can they
take pride in writing poetry when the acceptance and praise of people who
ought to know better (hint, hint) is doled out freely and evenly instead of
won through study and hard work? How can they take pride in being poets
when everyone who can scribble a few trite lines is honored with the title
of poet?
> Correct me if I'm wrong,
You're wrong.
-M. Otis Beard
Peter Stewart Richards
one way or another have had occasion to be exposed to M. Otis Beard, som
skrev i meldingen ...
>> >lots of gratuitous snipping by Max<
>>
<and me>
>
> "Far too many of you" is the phrase I used. That does NOT indicate a
>generalization, because "too many" is a relative term that could refer to a
>subset of any size. If my house is full of people, and even one or two of
>those people are deranged killers, then there are (in my opinion) too many
>deranged killers in my house. If I were making a generalization, I'd be
>painting everyone with the same brush.
>
Otis Beard has a house full of people covered in paint
<snip>
> Therefore you have no grounds to contest my statement that there are "far
>too many" of them, unless you do so purely as a matter of opinion.
>
The addressee has not retained the residue of coffee.
<snip>
> I hope the "future leaders" improve their reading and writing skills
>before they take over the world. Maybe if we challenge them once in a
while
>instead of mollycoddling them and praising their lamest, tiniest efforts,
>they'll learn to take some pride in what they do.
>
Otis Beard, and others with whom he associates, are in direct contact
with the future rulers of planet earth.
<snip>
>
>
> When did it become mandatory for snobby academics, self-serving
publishers
>and producers, and biased politicians to read Usenet? Do you live on some
>other planet, or have there been some strange changes here on Earth while I
>wasn't looking?
>
Otis Beard has apparently spent some time observing another planet.
<snip>
>
> Then why don't you? While you're at it, you might point out to them that
>cummings, Hughes, Ginsberk, Bukowski et al took the time to learn the rules
>before they broke them, and that's part of what makes the difference
between
>their work and crap.
>
It is important to differentiate between work, crap, rules and the
spelling of names.
<snip>
>
> Who cares why? As long as they're reading, they're learning.
>
It is written.
<snip>
>
> I'm not insisting that they study the interpretation of poetry, I'm
>insisting that they learn the fundamentals of English composition before
>they start calling their efforts poetry. I'm insisting that they learn how
>to walk instead of calling their crawlings flight and being satisfied with
>that. I'm exerting a little upward pressure on them.
>
a) Poetry in a foreign language may safely be ignored.
b) There is an error in the second law of thermodynamics: for work, read:
poetry.
c) Something about squashing insects on the ceiling.
<snip>
>
>
> You're just rabid about this formal training thing, aren't you? I never
>mentioned any sort of formal training, because what we're talking about
here
>is LEARNING THE BASICS before you call yourself an artist. Such learning
is
>in no way dependent on formal training.
>
You don't have to stand on your head to read this paragraph, you can
turn the screen upside down.
<snip>
>
> Funny, that wasn't your point before. You don't think very clearly
>sometimes, do you?
>
Analysis suggests the above not to be a sentence per se; possibly a
device to sabotage voice recognition machinery.
<snip>
>
> It's called a joke. I even put a little winking, smiling face at the end
>so humor-impaired people would get it, too. Unfortunately, I didn't
realize
>that the lack of proper punctuation in your writing indicated a case of
>punctuation blindness so severe that it prevents you from seeing semicolons
>and dashes as well as interrogatives.
>
Dashed colons are hell for the humourously impaired.
<snip>
>
> Then why don't you harangue someone who has expressed that attitude? I'm
>not telling anyone to quit writing poetry, I'm just trying to get them to
>learn the basics before they start calling themselves poets. How can they
>take pride in writing poetry when the acceptance and praise of people who
>ought to know better (hint, hint) is doled out freely and evenly instead of
>won through study and hard work? How can they take pride in being poets
>when everyone who can scribble a few trite lines is honored with the title
>of poet?
>
Otis Beard bravely and succinctly defends his right to dismiss writers
who can't write.
>> Correct me if I'm wrong,
>
> You're wrong.
>
He stops at nothing.
> -M. Otis Beard
>
Remember the name.
p
Misdrenias
>an asshole, or did you have to, like, take lessons?
>
>-Jody
>
He's one of those child prodigys who are born assholes but work their whole
life to perfect it.
Misdrenias
>anyway?
>> seinfeld does
>
>~Scream
>
>
>
yeah, well, when I was at the orchestra banquet at magic island, when one guy
finished his show, the people wouldn't leave and he started telling bad jokes
to (unsucessfully) get them out. And they all laughed at the jokes. One of
the jokes was "A 3-legged dog walked into a bar and said 'Hey, I'm looking for
the man who shot my paw.'"
Brookee
> potato-like head that the apostrophe is not a "here comes an s" symbol, you
> might be able to say you've learned something today.
>
Otis~
~Dear, I know you are a famous poet and all and you are probably quite
intelligent too. However, you are still in middle school. You still have *SO*
much more to learn, *SO* much experience yet to gain, and *SO* much more
personal growth to achieve. This is not a personal attack or a generalized
stereotype, rather it's a fact of your age and of life. Even retirees have
more to learn, and experience to gain, and more to grow. You can not treat
people (no matter how old you are) like you believe you are smarter, more
worthy, and just better than they are. People do not respond to that; people
do not respect that; people do not appreciate that. You will gain no respect,
only enemies. Realize, that it is possible that there is someone who knows
more about something (even poetry) than you do; perhaps, someone else could be
right (too or in opposition to) even if their opinions differ from yours.
Rudeness will get you no where. Rudeness is one of the biggest downfalls of
our society today. Learn to treat people with respect, or don't expect to be
respected by anyone. You don't gain respect, you earn it. No one will totally
respect you, unless you respect everyone. That's life. Respect yourself
enough to realize that you're not perfect either.
~Brooke~ who really was trying to stay out of
these arguments.
HoL
che guevara
HoL
HoL
[HoL]
ernesto
che guevara
Ben Hemler
to follow some specific set of guidelines, but as far as i can tell you dont.
Unless you are writing a specific type of poetry or haikou or something then
there arent really many rules to follow. I mean lord knows poetry most
definately doesnot have to follow the rules of grammer. There is also no
specific format you have to follow, or detailed guidelines on spacing. So I
really would like to know your idea of the "Rules" of poetry.
SLL
wrote:
>ernesto
>che guevara
I don't know much about him. Thank you. He's on my mind now. I'll
look into him.
SLL
HoL
> >che guevara
>
> I don't know much about him. Thank you. He's on my mind now. I'll
> look into him.
i'd look at him.
more impressive.
SLL
wrote:
I have given up idolatry and appreciate your statements.
Jim Futrell
ernesto
che guevara
are not much to look at. A man of action, inside and out he was.
SLL wrote in message <374c00dc...@news.gte.net>...
SLL
<j...@totaltech.win.net> wrote:
>The statements of :
>ernesto
>che guevara
>are not much to look at. A man of action, inside and out he was.
"In orations of praise, and in invectives, the fancy is predominant;
because the design is not truth, but to honour or dishonour; which is
done by noble or vile comparisons. The judgement does but suggest
what circumstances make an action laudable or culpable."
-- Hobbes
don't know if it fits, but it struck me.
SLL
Jim Futrell
Are you planning on turning the other cheek?
SLL wrote in message <374c2bd1...@news.gte.net>...
SLL
<j...@totaltech.win.net> wrote:
>> ...it struck me.
>
>Are you planning on turning the other cheek?
cute. I've never been very good at being submissive. The way I see
it, that cheek can get it either way. :)
perhaps prepared is a better word?
pne...@jupiternetworks.com
Whatever comes from someones heart and soul and reflects on his/her
words should be deemed as poetry. Whether or not it is good or bad,
should not be judged by anybody, but the writer themselves.-Peter
In article <7icfii$g22$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
bar...@athena.ddns.org wrote:
>
>
> 99% of poetry written *anywhere* is utter swill. 95% of *published
poetry* is utter swill.
>
> sorry.
>
> -Sam
>
> : You're absolutely right that 99% of the "poetry" that is posted to
these
> : newsgroups is utter swill, but you're wrong to think that your own
writing
> : is much better than that of the people whose drivel you're
belittling. I
> : read your entire article, and you *don't* know how to write well.
Who is to judge what good writing is? Scholars? Give me a break.
Whatever comes from someones heart and soul and reflects on his/her
words should be deemed as poetry. Whether or not it is good or bad,
should not be judged by anybody, but the writer themselves.
>
>
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
ian
barrycoffey wrote in message <3749c32e$0$7...@news-reader.satin.net>...
>\Hey, i'm new to all this stuff but I have a few poetic strains in me.
Hey! welcome to the ng. just jump right in and write what you're thinking
about. look forward to seeing some,
Ian,
giveita...@hotmail.com
"Midnight frost -
I'd borrow
The scarecrow's shirt"
Issa
Scream
Truth: Good/great poetry is intellectual.
~Scream
M. Otis Beard
pne...@jupiternetworks.com wrote in message
<7ihml2$btl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Who is to judge what good writing is? Scholars? Give me a break.
Well, of course not! Scholars obviously don't know anything, because they
*study* and follow -- gasp! -- traditions and stuff, which makes them THE
MAN and therefore worse than Hitler and Stalin combined! Career
prizefighters, rap "musicians" and garbage collectors should be the judges
of what good writing is, 'cause they have so much soul and they don't care
about all the goofy stuff THE MAN tries to teach you in school, which makes
them, like, alternative and shit. Unfortunately, career prizefighters and
rap "musicians" can be difficult to get in touch with on short notice, and
garbage collectors are only around at ungodly hours of the early pre-dawn
morning, so in a pinch you might consider asking the crew of your local
McDonald's or Taco Bell to critique your poetry instead (don't go to the
drive-thru window, though -- those people are nothing but PHILISTINES). If
you don't have any fast food franchises in your area, I know a guy who
washes dishes at Dartmouth. He'd be glad to read and critique your
poieertyrtry, 'cause he's got leukemia and his dying wish is to have a
million people send him their poams for review.
>Whatever comes from someones heart and soul and reflects on his/her
>words should be deemed as poetry. Whether or not it is good or bad,
>should not be judged by anybody, but the writer themselves.-Peter
It shouldn't even be judged by the writer! Nobody anywhere has the right
to judge anything for any reason whatsoever at any time, and anybody who
disagrees with me is an oppressive, elitist, dick-wielding NAZI!!!!! You
should write your poetry while you're asleep or thinking about something
else, and then crumple it up and throw it into a blast furnace before you
accidentally read it and form some kind of (*shudder*) opinion. I mean, it
just ISN'T COOL to be all judgmental and shit, which is why you should eat
anything that gets close to your mouth instead of acting all picky.
-M. Otis Beard, Famous Poet
Cliff n' Tina
Because it got boring two days ago? No, no, that CAN'T be it.
--
So...you wish to escape from http://home.earthlink.net/~cliffsongs/ do you?
Scream
~Scream
Prembone wrote:
> > Myth: Poetry is "heart and soul."
> >
> > Truth: Good/great poetry is intellectual.
>
> Purely "intellectual" poetry isn't poetry at all. It's a bloodless,
> soulless academic exercise.
>
> Good poetry has heart and soul and adequate crafting. **Great** poetry
> is heart and soul masterfully shaped and crafted by the practiced
> intellect. Intellect is the refining tool, but heart and soul is the
> substance upon which the intellect works.
M. Otis Beard
Misdrenias wrote in message
<19990526215024...@ng-da1.aol.com>...
>either you are being extremely sarcastic, or you are just insane and a
hypocrit
I"M NOT SIRCAUSTIC!!! I ARE A INSANE HYPOCRIT!!!!!
-M. Otis Beard
HoL
i agree,
i didn't say look at his statements. i said look at him.
think before u leap
HoL
> >
> >Are you planning on turning the other cheek?
>
> cute. I've never been very good at being submissive. The way I see
> it, that cheek can get it either way. :)
>
> perhaps prepared is a better word?
good boy scouts.
SLL
wrote:
Is this word association time? Okay, I'll play.
good boy scouts.
good girl scouts.
Prembone
"Scream" <runw...@geocities.com> wrote:
> Myth: Poetry is "heart and soul."
>
> Truth: Good/great poetry is intellectual.
Purely "intellectual" poetry isn't poetry at all. It's a bloodless,
soulless academic exercise.
Good poetry has heart and soul and adequate crafting. **Great** poetry
is heart and soul masterfully shaped and crafted by the practiced
intellect. Intellect is the refining tool, but heart and soul is the
substance upon which the intellect works.
--
Prembone
**************************************************
The Prembone Pages: Humor, Opinion, Parody, Satire
http://www.geocities.com/~prembone/
Misdrenias
>>Who is to judge what good writing is? Scholars? Give me a break.
~Misdrenias
Baneful
>soulless academic exercise.
"The intellect" is often the most passionate lover of all...
---
Phenobarbital,
---
Your peppermint-swirl halo.
---
On febrile summer nights I lie in my bed like a corpse listening to the uneasy
sound of crickets, and each moment is a dying ember of eternity placed in my
hand for me to do with what I wish.
Georgiana Cohen
for a very long time) and started to catch up by reading the entirety of this
thread. I notice the groups listed in the crossposting, but I feel obliged to
lend my perspective.
I'm a 19-year-old journalism student. Beginning when I was 15, I wrote
copious amounts of really bad poetry. The source? Nothing other than the
usual teenage malaise. Writing the poems (take my usage of the term with a
grain of salt here, Otis.. I'd rather say 'poems' than 'lyrics' or something
just for the sake of convenience) *was* therapy. I mean, they sucked, of
course. No form, no structure, nothing cohesive (or coherent, in some
cases). I'm a good writer; it's just that these pain-driven works were my
first experiments with the form of poetry. They were raw with unbridled
emotion and completely lacked the binding force that a critical, trained hand
could have applied. I have a pile of notebooks and papers stacked high with
crap from which can only be salvaged maybe a handful of glimpses of real
poetry. You know what, though? As I got older and that teenage malaise
gradually cured itself, I gained that critical eye and trained hand with which
I could say "That sucks" and see why. The poems I've written in the past two
years are of a vastly superior quality to those written in mid-adolescence.
Am I really a poet? I'm going to say that, to me (please, note the
disclaimer 'to me'. I'm not saying my judgment is the end-all, here.), poetry
is the ultimate conveyance of emotion or insight through a carefully crafted
form...the ultimate meeting place of those eternally opposed and united
entities: reason and emotion. A good poem comes close to striking a perfect
balance between the two. So, back to the questions at hand. Am I really a
poet? Yes. Was I one four years ago? I'll say I was an aspiring poet. The
stuff I wrote, though devoid of true poetic merit, still means something to
me. It's a record of emotional development. Each of those pages is like a
shred of a molted exoskeleton. It was part of a painful evolution from
tortured, angsty girl into wiser, experienced woman, and it was wholly
necessary. What I write now, however, is forged from that wisdom and that
experience. As I get older, I get wiser and gain more experience, and the
poems will get better. (I'll share some soon).
Your insight is much appreciated, but remember: what I've said here is just my
insight, not my declaration of immutable truths. Treat them as such. Thanks
for your time.
--
________________________________________________________________________
| Georgiana Cohen Happiness makes up in height|
| Boston University, COM '01 for what it lacks in length.|
| gvc...@bu.edu -- Robert Frost|
| |
| http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/7852 |
|_____________________________ ICQ = 7297847 ____________________________|
Misdrenias
that in one year that I have grown greatly in the quality of my poems, but I
still believe there is a lot more room to grow. But I guess its that way for
everyone.
~Misdrenias
Redclay 6
emotion and completely lacked the binding force that a critical, trained hand
could have applied. >>
mine got rawed unbridled motion to em too.
M. Otis Beard
Georgiana Cohen wrote in message <7ip2hu$1hp$1...@news1.bu.edu>...
>Hey everyone. I just jumped into this group (though I've had it on my list
>for a very long time) and started to catch up by reading the entirety of
this
>thread. I notice the groups listed in the crossposting, but I feel obliged
to
>lend my perspective.
>I'm a 19-year-old journalism student. Beginning when I was 15, I wrote
>copious amounts of really bad poetry. The source? Nothing other than the
>usual teenage malaise. Writing the poems (take my usage of the term with a
>grain of salt here, Otis.. I'd rather say 'poems' than 'lyrics' or
something
>just for the sake of convenience) *was* therapy. I mean, they sucked, of
>course. No form, no structure, nothing cohesive (or coherent, in some
>cases). I'm a good writer; it's just that these pain-driven works were my
>emotion and completely lacked the binding force that a critical, trained
hand
You haven't written a single word here that I would strongly disagree
with, but I don't like the implications of some of it -- perhaps I'm not
entirely clear on your meaning, though. You make it sound as though the
wisdom and experience that you now apply to your writing was gained by
penning bad poetry, but I don't think that's what you really meant. . . I
think you meant that you gained wisdom and experience from life, and your
poetry, as a record of your internal voyage, has reflected that. The real
question is, how much improvement in your writing do you attribute to life
experience, and how much to the actual study of writing itself?
I'm very glad that you've taken your poetry seriously enough to study and,
hopefully, master the techniques by which reason holds equal sway with
emotion (I really like your definition of poetry, by the way). The
recognition of the necessity for both reason and emotion in poetry is the
first step in maturing as a poet, and failure to make that connection
usually results in either dryly academic verse that fails to sing, or flat,
overwrought hash that fails to scan.
I don't know if you're a good poet or a bad poet, but your understanding
of the nature of poetry itself tells me that you are, indeed, a poet of some
sort. Good luck to you.
-M. Otis Beard
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/4236
Misdrenias
>think you meant that you gained wisdom and experience from life, and your
>poetry, as a record of your internal voyage, has reflected that.
I think thats what he meant.
> I'm very glad that you've taken your poetry seriously enough to study and,
>hopefully, master the techniques by which reason holds equal sway with
>emotion (I really like your definition of poetry, by the way).
So am I. Even though I am only in high school, I try to learn to the best of
my ability by means of the Internet and special classes offered at school on
this subject.
Mikael
(sorry, couldn´t help it !)
Peter Stewart Richards
Mikael skrev i meldingen <7ipbi9$6s2$1...@zingo.tninet.se>...
>......and now that you are sooooooo much older !!?? :)
>
>
>(sorry, couldn´t help it !)
>
and, as Yossarian says: 'You don't get much older than that'.
p
Georgiana Cohen
: You make it sound as though the
: wisdom and experience that you now apply to your writing was gained by
: penning bad poetry, but I don't think that's what you really meant. . . I
: think you meant that you gained wisdom and experience from life, and your
: poetry, as a record of your internal voyage, has reflected that. The real
: question is, how much improvement in your writing do you attribute to life
: experience, and how much to the actual study of writing itself?
Kind of... By penning bad poetry, I realized what bad poetry was. Whatever it
lacked was what I had to add. But your statement is correct, as well. As for
the 'real question', I would attribute my improved writing to maturity and to
the study of writing (I have taken three English classes in college, including
a creative writing class, a general survey class, and an upper-level class
discussing 20th century American poetry.. plus, I'm a journalism major, so
there's some other writing classes).
: I'm very glad that you've taken your poetry seriously enough to study and,
: hopefully, master the techniques by which reason holds equal sway with
: emotion (I really like your definition of poetry, by the way). The
: recognition of the necessity for both reason and emotion in poetry is the
: first step in maturing as a poet, and failure to make that connection
: usually results in either dryly academic verse that fails to sing, or flat,
: overwrought hash that fails to scan.
You know, reaching that realization is the hardest part, both in writing and
in one's personal life. I feel lucky to have realized that (holding to that
realization in one's actions is even harder ;) )
: I don't know if you're a good poet or a bad poet, but your understanding
: of the nature of poetry itself tells me that you are, indeed, a poet of some
: sort. Good luck to you.
Well, thanks. I'm going to post some poems soon.
--
________________________________________________________________________
| Georgiana Cohen Happiness makes up in height|
| Boston University, COM '01 for what it lacks in length.|
| gvc...@bu.edu -- Robert Frost|
| |
Georgiana Cohen
: Mikael skrev i meldingen <7ipbi9$6s2$1...@zingo.tninet.se>...
I'm a 'she', by the way.
Dead, wha?