racist caricatures: (1) "Mr. Wong" Cartoon, (2) D.R.Hofstadter
Tomoyuki Tanaka
i just saw some of "Mr. Wong" cartoon. this is powerful stuff.
marriage of 1950s US racism and Year 2000 technology.
in the Year 2000, it's shocking to see such crude caricatures
as this and those by Douglas Hofstadter (see below).
drydem <walte...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>It's a flash/shockwave web animation series at
> [ http://www.icebox.com ]
>The story revolves around dehumanizing an asian male named
>Mr. Wong who is drawn as a wimpy buck-toothed squinty-eyed
>male servant of a nasty and mean spirited Ally-McBeal /
>Audrey Hepburn-like white female boss Ms. Pam.
it's interesting that you compare Ally McBeal to "Breakfast
at Tiffany's". to me, anti-Asian racism is at the heart of
the 1960s film, whereas it is not for the 1990s TV show.
>[1] For a pic of Charlie the chinese houseboy see
> http://www2.wi.net/~rkurer/magoo.htm
>
>[2] http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/b/breakfast_tiffanys.html
> For a pic of Mr. Yunioshi
> http://pages.prodigy.net/mshimkus/yunioshi.htm
URL: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~soci/sp/vol1/sp30.html
SHOULD RACIAL STEREOTYPES APPEAR IN MAGAZINES?
Subject: Bright Lights Film Journal: Hollywood Yellowface (page 1)
URL: http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/18/18_yellow.html
is this author Robert Ito the actor who played Sam from Quincy?
About Hofstadter (see below), I just noticed that his
nonsexist-writing phase (in his 1985 book) was when
PC was becoming fashionable, and his caricatures of
Asians in his 1997 book came out when China-bashing
was becoming more popular: campaign financing scandals,
nuclear secrets, Wen Ho Lee, ... .
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
> D.R.Hofstadter: "alien" "inscrutable" "Oriental mind"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> in "Metamagical Themas" (1985) Hofstadter self-righteously
>> preached nonsexist language (word choices, etc) with
>> hypersensitivity.
>>
>> in "Le Ton beau de Marot" (1997) Hofstadter casually makes
>> fun of Asians with the phrases such as
>> "inscrutable" "the Oriental mind" and other outdated
>> (and inherently racist) stereotypes.
>>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
> from Douglas Hofstadter's book "Le Ton beau de Marot" (1997)
>
> "Could it be that the very idea of transculturation
> itself is a Western one, and strikes the Oriental mind
> as alien?" (Page 148)
>
> "By virtue of being overly Oriental, it would be
> extraordinarily disorienting!" (Page 149)
>
> have you read another book that's published in the last 20
> years or so that uses the words like "inscrutable" and "the
> Oriental mind" (or other racist stereotypes) to make fun of
> Asians?
>
> if so, could you let me know?
> i'm esp. interested in books by non-comedians.
>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> NYT's review article of Douglas Hofstadter's book "Le
>> Ton beau de Marot"
>> http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/07/20/reviews/970720.20altert.html
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
Tomoyuki Tanaka
the skin color used for "Mr. Wong" cartoon caught my attention:
dark, ugly yellow. much darker than the Simpson family.
is this similar to the color used during WW2 to depict the
Japanese?
> | Can you explain a little bit more why the above situations
> | is funny? For example would it be funny if it's not Mr Wong
> | doing it but some regular joe? If not, what is it about Mr
> | Wong that makes it funny when he, rather than some other
> | person, is involved in the situations you listed above?
>
> He has poor English, thus cursing sounds funny since he's not
> exactly prounouncing the words correctly.
i don't find Douglas Hofstadter's caricatures funny or amusing
because:
(1) "disoriented" puns and "inscrutable Oriental mind"
stereotypes are just old and hackneyed. nothing new
or creative about it.
(2) for decades we've been explaining to these insensitive
Hofstadter types why these are offensive and they just
don't get it. they keep doing it.
"Mr. Wong" is unfunny for the same reasons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
i just saw some of "Mr. Wong" cartoon. this is powerful stuff.
marriage of 1950s US racism and Year 2000 technology.
in the Year 2000, it's shocking to see such crude caricatures
as this and those by Douglas Hofstadter (see below).
drydem <walte...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>It's a flash/shockwave web animation series at
> [ http://www.icebox.com ]
>The story revolves around dehumanizing an asian male named
>Mr. Wong who is drawn as a wimpy buck-toothed squinty-eyed
>male servant of a nasty and mean spirited Ally-McBeal /
>Audrey Hepburn-like white female boss Ms. Pam.
>[1] For a pic of Charlie the chinese houseboy see
> http://www2.wi.net/~rkurer/magoo.htm
>
>[2] http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/b/breakfast_tiffanys.html
> For a pic of Mr. Yunioshi
> http://pages.prodigy.net/mshimkus/yunioshi.htm
URL: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~soci/sp/vol1/sp30.html
SHOULD RACIAL STEREOTYPES APPEAR IN MAGAZINES?
Bright Lights Film Journal: Hollywood Yellowface (page 1)
URL: http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/18/18_yellow.html
is this author Robert Ito the actor who played Sam from Quincy?
Stephen W. Worth
(Tomoyuki Tanaka) wrote:
> the skin color used for "Mr. Wong" cartoon caught my attention:
> dark, ugly yellow. much darker than the Simpson family.
Who cares?
> is this similar to the color used during WW2 to depict the
> Japanese?
During WW2, BOTH the Japanese and the Americans engaged in racist
caricature. (There is a difference between "racial caricature" and
"racist caricature" by the way... There is nothing wrong with
racial caricature in cartoons.)
See ya
Steve
--
Visit Spumco's Wonderful World of Cartoons:
http://www.spumco.com alt.animation.spumco
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Vintage Ink & Paint http://www.vintageip.com
JUNYER
<alia...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The color of Mr. Wong's skin is just the start. The cartoon is hideously
> offensive. I am an animator, and I am Asian. I would be willing to
> overlook the racism here if the show were funny.
I wrote a little piece about the surrounding MR. WONG controversy in the
ANIMATION BLAST News page at www.AnimationBlast.com.
Thanks,
Amid
AliasMoze
drydem
jun...@YESGIVEMESPAMjps.net (JUNYER) wrote:
> In article <i35f5.4370$1y.4...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "AliasMoze"
>
>I wrote a little piece about the surrounding MR. WONG controversy
>in the ANIMATION BLAST News page at www.AnimationBlast.com.
>
> Thanks,
> Amid
I saw your piece on Mr. Wong at.
http://www.animationblast.com/news/
Apu v. Mr.Wong
--------------
In the TV cartoon, "The Simpsons" all the main
characters are drawn rather silly and in a unflattering
manner. In the online animation "Mr.Wong" only Mr.Wong is
drawn in a silly and in a unflattering manner.
Normally an artist has a particular style that
comes through in all his character, e.g. in
Peanuts everyone has a round head. In "The
Simpsons," while the minor south-asian-indian
character Apu may have a thick accent and look
stereotypical - visually Apu is quite good looking
when considering the cartoon style being used. Apu's
wife is a looker, too. Mr.Wong's unflattering
visuals would have been less objectional if every main
character in the show was also consistantly unflattering.
However, in Mr.Wong's case - the depiction of Mr.Wong
cannot be accounted for as artistic style since no other
character is made to look like him. The break in style
and in form is a way for the artist to convey a message
- in this case - that chinese american men are ugly
and that white americans are pretty and handsome.
There are no other handsome asian american men in
Mr.Wong.
I believe my earlier comparisons UPN's TV Mr.Magoo
(circ. 1960s) is actually better comparable work
to "Mr.Wong" albeit such show are not readily
accessible to most people to make such a comparison.
Another TV show that you might compare plot/storylines
with is the old TV show called "The Jack Benny Show."
Jack Benny was the white master and Rochester was
the Black male servant.
master-servant comic schtick deviations
-----------
In the old master-servant comic schtick - the
master act as a creator of the comic frame
that the servant must deal with. The Simpson
normally doesnot use a master-servant
comic schtick. One of the reasons that all the main
characters in the Simpsons are dysfunctional - this
dysfunctionality provides the source of the comic
frame to create the story/comedy. Apu is use to feed
the comic frame but he never is the source of it.
For example - when Holmer finds out about
Apu anniversary present for his wife Holmer gets
envous/jealous (the comic frame = envy and jealousy).
In Mr.Wong, Ms.Pam - the white master - lacks any
dysfunctional depth - this forces Wong the servant
to create the comic frame alone,( aka solo comic
acts like Red Skeleton/Charlie Chaplin/Buster Keaton).
However, the writers are stuck with a master-servant
model and can't imbrace a solo comic act (that would
make Ms.Pam unnecessary). This makes the servant,
who is limited by the master in the master-servant
comic schtick model, responsible for the comic frame
without the standard assistance from the dysfunctional
master. Without the comic chemistry between master
and servant - the comedy becomes severely handicapped.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Michael Watson
One must consider who cares and what reputation will it give you plus can you
sell your creation...
Don't forget will it hold in time...
I will be creating "shorts" that will mirror me and hopefully make money...if
it offends a select few (say less than 100 or so)...if there not important than
oh well...
JUNYER wrote:
> In article <i35f5.4370$1y.4...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "AliasMoze"
Michael Morbius
cartoon to cash in on the fact that there was a new movie out? It took
about a week for the TV stations to realize how racist it was and yank it
off the air.
And then there's "Careless the Mexican Hairless" from *Beany & Cecil*.
Mike
Tomoyuki Tanaka
URL: http://biz.yahoo.com/st/000626/16385.html
Monday June 26, 4:15 pm Eastern Time
TheStandard.com
Mr. Wong Just Not Right, Critics Say
By Kathi Black
The National Asian Pacific American Legal Consortium called
on Icebox.com today, eCompanies' new entertainment venture,
to drop its animated short Mr. Wong, claiming that it
"reinforc[ed] negative stereotypes of Asian Americans."
[...]
Mr. Wong first came under fire on June 13, when Asian
Avenue, a community site, ran an article that requested
feedback on Mr. Wong. [...]
[ http://www.AsianAvenue.com ]
Debasish Mishra, director of the Indian American Legal
Center also thinks that the show is offensive. "If this
were a black character, it'd be on the front page of every
newspaper in the country," he says.
[very true]
Koby The Interactive Bear
>This is certainly a sticky issue. Again, I am an animator, and I am Asian.
>So I think the cartoon is offensive. This is not to say that I am offended
>myself. I simply just don't care.
>I believe in free speech across the board. For example, as much as I
>dislike the ideas of the KKK or Icebox's show, I respect the creators'
>rights to express their views.
>That said, I --likewise-- agree with the NAPALC's rights to protest.
I hope Icebox keeps it going, just for the sake of freedom of speech
AliasMoze
So I think the cartoon is offensive. This is not to say that I am offended
myself. I simply just don't care.
I believe in free speech across the board. For example, as much as I
dislike the ideas of the KKK or Icebox's show, I respect the creators'
rights to express their views.
That said, I --likewise-- agree with the NAPALC's rights to protest.
"Tomoyuki Tanaka" <tan...@web1.calweb.com> wrote in message
news:39838786$1...@news3.calweb.com...
Zephyr
AliasMoze <alia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:59Mg5.13435$1y.9...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
| This is certainly a sticky issue. Again, I am an animator, and I am Asian.
| So I think the cartoon is offensive. This is not to say that I am offended
| myself. I simply just don't care.
| I believe in free speech across the board. For example, as much as I
| dislike the ideas of the KKK or Icebox's show, I respect the creators'
| rights to express their views.
| That said, I --likewise-- agree with the NAPALC's rights to protest.
Totally agree. There are a LOT of anti free speech folks here that would
love to force Icebox to remove the offensive content (instead of just
protesting and let Icebox get the message that way, they prefer to have some
group force Icebox to remove it. ) It's a shame. People come here from
countries that have no bill of rights and no protected speech or press and
expect the same level of "big brother" govt here.
Wake up people! Do you really want 1984 to be real?
XBonesGT
> on Icebox.com today, eCompanies' new entertainment venture,
> to drop its animated short Mr. Wong, claiming that it
> "reinforc[ed] negative stereotypes of Asian Americans."
> [...]
> Center also thinks that the show is offensive. "If this
> were a black character, it'd be on the front page of every
> newspaper in the country," he says.
It seems to me that these groups, by loudly voicing their views on this
issue, will end up doing more damage than if they had said nothing in the
first place. The more they raise this topic of discussion, the more media
attention will be focused on it, and the more people will watch it for
themselves and possibly find it amusing.
There is so much content on the Internet that it is very nearly
impossible for a single person to be noticed. Therefore, people like Mr.
Wong's creator rely on the attention of groups like ones quoted above to
tell the media about their creations who in turn report what they have
heard, thereby gaining the creators a huge potential viewing base.
What if, however, nobody made mention of this cartoon to the media
(please note the difference between "nobody mentioning" and nobody caring")?
The creator would show it to a few of his friends, who might or might not
find it interesting. Having a handful of people finding this humorous will
do far less damage in the long run than potentially having thousands or tens
of thousands.
Yes, I find the Mr. Wong cartoons offensive. Yes, I believe it should
be taken down. But no, I don't believe it should be loudly talked about by
groups like the ones above; in the end, that course of action will only
encourage others to create such things in the future.
-Dan
gte...@prism.gatech.edu
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte176q/index.html
AliasMoze
> I'm waiting for the day when whites start protesting the almost
> overwhealming prejudice against them in media images. For example, in
> the movie "Coneheads" the aliens were portrayed as white people who
> did nothing but "consume mass quantities." And, many times in
> comedies, the white guy is portrayed as being uncool, while black or
> hispanic comedians make fun of him.
Daniel, you're message is just a sign of right wing brainwashing in the US.
The idea that whites are oppressed is laughable. Whites cannot be
oppressed, because they have represented a huge majority in the US and
Europe for so long. That's right. Can-NOT be oppressed. Are NOT
oppressed. Use you freakin head, man!
I, for one, do not agree with cencsoring Icebox. However, your post is an
example of the most idiotic of stances on oppression.
Koby The Interactive Bear
>Daniel wrote:
>> I'm waiting for the day when whites start protesting the almost
>> overwhealming prejudice against them in media images. For example, in
>> the movie "Coneheads" the aliens were portrayed as white people who
>> did nothing but "consume mass quantities." And, many times in
>> comedies, the white guy is portrayed as being uncool, while black or
>> hispanic comedians make fun of him.
>
>Daniel, you're message is just a sign of right wing brainwashing in the US.
>The idea that whites are oppressed is laughable. Whites cannot be
>oppressed, because they have represented a huge majority in the US and
>Europe for so long. That's right. Can-NOT be oppressed. Are NOT
>oppressed. Use you freakin head, man!
Oh, come on. Daniel was joking!
...wasn't he?
- Peter, commander and the leader
"Only uptight sexually repressed psychotics could fail to love this
album." - Velvet, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TZZO
http://www.geocities.com/pdestructo - Rare Cartoon Network MP3s -
UPDATED
Ryan Ridge
> It seems to me that these groups, by loudly voicing their views on this
> issue, will end up doing more damage than if they had said nothing in the
> first place. The more they raise this topic of discussion, the more media
> attention will be focused on it, and the more people will watch it for
> themselves and possibly find it amusing.
Also understand that the more attention that is focused on it, the more
people learn that this *is* offensive. Isn't education the way to
overcome garbage like this? Ignoring it won't make the problem go away
any faster.
> There is so much content on the Internet that it is very nearly
> impossible for a single person to be noticed. Therefore, people like Mr.
> Wong's creator rely on the attention of groups like ones quoted above to
> tell the media about their creations who in turn report what they have
> heard, thereby gaining the creators a huge potential viewing base.
But how many of these people will now actually *think* when they view
this? That is the hope, that these people will come to understand that it
is harmful, not funny, and the reasons behind the harm.
> What if, however, nobody made mention of this cartoon to the media
> (please note the difference between "nobody mentioning" and nobody caring")?
> The creator would show it to a few of his friends, who might or might not
> find it interesting. Having a handful of people finding this humorous will
> do far less damage in the long run than potentially having thousands or tens
> of thousands.
But the problem would then still exist, and those thousands or tens of
thousands would be completely ignorant of it, thereby possibly
perpetuating the problem for a much longer period of time. Getting lots
of attention mostly only serves to shorten the life-span of the subject.
If this attention spurs a large amount of copy-cat material, I think
people will get tired of it pretty fast. Especially if they come to
understand that there is harm being done.
> Yes, I find the Mr. Wong cartoons offensive. Yes, I believe it should
> be taken down. But no, I don't believe it should be loudly talked about by
> groups like the ones above; in the end, that course of action will only
> encourage others to create such things in the future.
I still don't understand how keeping quiet and letting stuff like this
happen uncontested helps solve the problem.
Ryan
Michael Morbius
> The idea that whites are oppressed is laughable. Whites cannot be
> oppressed, because they have represented a huge majority in the US and
> Europe for so long. That's right. Can-NOT be oppressed. Are NOT
> oppressed. Use you freakin head, man!
Oh, so white gays and lesbians and white poor people aren't
oppressed? Uh-huh.
Mike
AliasMoze
It's like, HEY BLACKY, keep your mouth shut.
Ridiculous. The social groups that were mentioned are simply protesting the
show. It's a right, as is free speech. They draw attention to "Mr. Wong."
The people who view the show will make their own judgements.
Tomoyuki Tanaka
>
>URL: http://biz.yahoo.com/st/000626/16385.html
>
i have trouble finding the place in AsianAvenue.com where
people are talking about "Mr. Wong".
do i have to become a member to see that?
[ http://www.AsianAvenue.com ]
here's another piece on the controversy.
i guess it made Newsweek.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
URL: http://www.msnbc.com/news/436610.asp?cp1=1
URL: http://www.msnbc.com/news/436610.asp
Trying to Right Mr. Wong
The Web site's founders say it's entertainment. But
Asian-Americans say it's offensive-and dangerous.
Offensive on-line: Civil Rights groups call Mr. Wong's
stereotypes hateful
By Lynette Clemetson
NEWSWEEK
July 23 - [...]
If the character sounds offensive, check out this
scene. In one episode of the recently launched Net show,
the bumbling Mr. Wong asks his socialite boss, Miss Pam,
for money.
"I THOUGHT YOU YELLOW PEOPLE were so sly. Can't you live
on your wits?" she says. "Say `cotillion' and I'll give
you 100 bucks." "Co-tir-rion," spits out Mr. Wong. Miss
Pam lets out a hearty laugh.
[...]
(Mr. Wong's creators are both former writers for "South
Park.")
joe
>
> Daniel wrote:
> > I'm waiting for the day when whites start protesting the almost
> > overwhealming prejudice against them in media images. For example, in
> > the movie "Coneheads" the aliens were portrayed as white people who
> > did nothing but "consume mass quantities." And, many times in
> > comedies, the white guy is portrayed as being uncool, while black or
> > hispanic comedians make fun of him.
>
> Daniel, you're message is just a sign of right wing brainwashing in the US.
> oppressed, because they have represented a huge majority in the US and
> Europe for so long. That's right. Can-NOT be oppressed. Are NOT
> oppressed. Use you freakin head, man!
The idea that whites cannot be oppressed is both ignorant and ultra
right wing. "Whites" as you call them are not all the same, and only an
ignorant racist would say such a slanderous thing.
In truth and in fact there is no "white" majority: Germans and English
and Italians hardly look at each other as being one unit.
The sooner you grow up the sooner that you willl realize that anybody
can be oppressed. What a bigot you are.
Steph Greenberg
Ryan Ridge <rri...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> In soc.culture.asian.american XBonesGT <xbon...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> > It seems to me that these groups, by loudly voicing their views
on this
> > issue, will end up doing more damage than if they had said nothing
in the
> > first place. The more they raise this topic of discussion, the
> Also understand that the more attention that is focused on it, the
more
> people learn that this *is* offensive. Isn't education the way to
> overcome garbage like this? Ignoring it won't make the problem go
away
> any faster.
Ironically, since money on the net comes from people clicking onto a
site, the company in question receives more money when people trying to
see what all the fuss is about, click onto the site.
That encourages the company to do more of the same, particularly if
less offensive animation is ignored because it's inoffensive.
> I still don't understand how keeping quiet and letting stuff like this
> happen uncontested helps solve the problem.
You never went to elementary school in the US, did you? Otherwise you'd
know that the more you rat out other kids, the more they'll continue to
do something that irritates you. It also runs the risk of consolidating
people who like stuff that offends minorities. Not so much because
those people are racist, they're just sick to death of Political
Correctness being shoved down their throats. Either way, unless there's
some law being broken, publicizing things you don't like merely acts as
an accelerant and incentive for creating more of the same.
The cartoons don't sound funny or entertaining for me, so I'm not even
going to go to that site to check it out.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Steph Greenberg BS#30 PYFP#8 2K FXST, 98 Dyna (gone to Tulsa)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Red-Haired She-Devil
Steph Greenberg <steph...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Ironically, since money on the net comes from people clicking onto a
> site, the company in question receives more money when people trying
to
> see what all the fuss is about, click onto the site.
>
> That encourages the company to do more of the same, particularly if
> less offensive animation is ignored because it's inoffensive.
I bet the people complaining about the content of such websites also
don't realize that this website they're upset with in particular has
been hoping for a higher profile as their stock is about to go public.
Don't buy into their game...don't go to their website.
RHSD
--
Red-Haired She-Devil shed...@pobox.com
Shemp
potrayed as white people because Dan Ackroyd happens to be a white
person. It is his character after all. as for the mass consuming part...
Its a comment on society. If Dan Ackroyd had been born as a black person
then the aliens would've been black. As for a PC obsessed media... the
real world can be quite different.
Daniel Simpson Day wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> On 29 Jul 2000 18:40:22 -0700, tan...@web1.calweb.com (Tomoyuki
> Tanaka) wrote:
>
> > Debasish Mishra, director of the Indian American Legal
> > Center also thinks that the show is offensive. "If this
> > were a black character, it'd be on the front page of every
> > newspaper in the country," he says.
> >
> > [very true]
>
> That is just a sign of how far ingrained PC-Brainwashing is in the US.
>
> I'm waiting for the day when whites start protesting the almost
> overwhealming prejudice against them in media images. For example, in
> the movie "Coneheads" the aliens were portrayed as white people who
> did nothing but "consume mass quantities." And, many times in
> comedies, the white guy is portrayed as being uncool, while black or
> hispanic comedians make fun of him.
>
> -----------------------------------------
> "Rejected from soc.culture.japan.moderated" H12/4/10
> -----------------------------------------
> "I am the Gaijin that can say NO!" DSD
> -----------------------------------------