Oh to be a muslim and follow the teachings of Islam :o)
J D Leister
followers of islam and each group has a different
opinion on their religion and how to conduct it.
Some of them have said that they want terrorism
to go on, while others have expressed outrage at
the goings on in the States.
So can anyone that knows anything about this religion
explain to me where these people find an out to do
the things they do?
Does the Koran really say terrorism is OK and that this
is the way to achieve your goals?
J D Leister
> I think you would get exactly the same outcome from
> a world assessment of Christianity.
I would agree with you. No doubt Christianity has done many
many despicable things all in the name of God.
They call it a Jihad in their world, and in the western world
we'd call something similar to this a Crusade. In fact in the
dark ages there was such a thing as the Crusades which was
sponsored and endorsed by the Catholic Church.
You'll get no argument from me on this one. Religion is the
single most often used cause for conflict IMHO........
ant
"J D Leister" <joh...@senet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3BB5C735...@senet.com.au...
> Well they have shown interviews on TV with various
> followers of islam and each group has a different
> opinion on their religion and how to conduct it.
> Some of them have said that they want terrorism
> to go on, while others have expressed outrage at
> the goings on in the States.
>
similar spread of views regarding the bombings of abortion clinics and
shootings of practioners in the states if you asked a bunch of christians.
> So can anyone that knows anything about this religion
> explain to me where these people find an out to do
> the things they do?
>
same as the christains killing in the name of god, they are sick individuals
who use the cloak of religion to justify their externalised self hatred and
intolerance.
> Does the Koran really say terrorism is OK and that this
> is the way to achieve your goals?
>
does the bible say similar things?
ant
Aaron T
know that the Old Testament preaches much the same thing.
You've heard of eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth? This is exactly what they
(the terrorists) see this as.
The new testament (which is what modern christian groups are based on)
preaches compassion, love and meekness above all else. "The meek shall
inherit the earth..." and so forth.
The Qu'ran does not nessesarily preach terrorism but it does teach revenge,
or more exactly, violence as a response to violence.
The problem in this, as with any other religion is that there are some who
take it to extremes. Perhaps there is not such a problem these days with
christian/catholic groups because they are western religions and the general
western view is to 'take it easy' and the new/modern christian view is to do
the best you can. Islamic countries are not modern and the life is hard, so
they are proactive and there is no 'take it easy' mentality. Religion takes
a larger role in releasing some of the tension and as more people take it up
then more ppl take it up, its a circular thing. So you have whole countries
where 90%+ of the population will be Muslim or outwardly Muslim to stay
alive.
This means that manipulation of the masses is so much easier. Playing on
religious ideals and enforcing only parts of the text which you feel
important to your end goal is a simpel way to insite people.
All that aside, I feel that it is no the crux of the problem. Religion is
just a means to an end for people like Osama bin Laden, he is a manipulator.
You can paint the USA as an enemy all you like, but you still need a medium
whereby you can demonstrate or convince people that losing their life for
the cause is just. You do this through use of their religiousness.
In any case, the justification for these acts isn't implicit in the Qu'ran
the interpretation of current state of the world could mean that it is. Does
killing 5000 people make up for teh 50000 that the USA killed in a very
round about fashion? Personally I think that the attack wasn't warranted at
all. To them they feel that it is just eh tip of the iceberg, its is
fanatacism and as such its simple to predict what will happen, but no how.
In the end, it doesn't matter if Islam justifies their actions, because this
isn't really a consideration to these people.
"J D Leister" <joh...@senet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3BB5C735...@senet.com.au...
Aaron T
"ant" <spam...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:malt7.103853$bY5.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "J D Leister" <joh...@senet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3BB5C735...@senet.com.au...
> > Well they have shown interviews on TV with various
> > followers of islam and each group has a different
> > opinion on their religion and how to conduct it.
> > Some of them have said that they want terrorism
> > to go on, while others have expressed outrage at
> > the goings on in the States.
> >
>
> similar spread of views regarding the bombings of abortion clinics and
> shootings of practioners in the states if you asked a bunch of christians.
>
That is religion. I mean you can't really group christianic religions
together these days there are just so many different sects. Some are ultra
modern and its basically a zen type thing where you do good and don't do
bad.. pretty simple. Some are ultra conservative such as the catholic church
where only recently have they allowed birth control.
It all comes down to interpretation of teh text they follow. It's the same
for any religion.
> > So can anyone that knows anything about this religion
> > explain to me where these people find an out to do
> > the things they do?
> >
>
> same as the christains killing in the name of god, they are sick
individuals
> who use the cloak of religion to justify their externalised self hatred
and
> intolerance.
>
Definitely, I'd prescribe to this. Its like the IRA, maybe, maybe it was
started with a religious intent, but I doubt it. For a long time its just
been about money and power, a form of organised crime if you like. The fact
that the IRA and the Orangemen are of different religions is just a side
issue these days.
> > Does the Koran really say terrorism is OK and that this
> > is the way to achieve your goals?
> >
>
> does the bible say similar things?
>
Sure does. We have an Old Testament and a New Testament. They contradict
each other in many issues. The modern church prefers the New Testament as
its much nicer. Such lines as "Eye for an Eye... " int he Old and replaced
with "... Love thy neighbour as thyself.. " you have a lot of nice stuff in
there ... sort of final stuff like "... the meek shall inherit the earth.. "
so basically be nice, be meek and honest and that kinda thing.
> ant
>
>
Peter Wood
Get real. When did you last see a crusader on a white horse? Christians
don't crash planes into buildings.
--
rgds,
Pete.
-----
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ptw
http://www.REDGUMAUDIO.com
'the amp with the key' - STUNNING!
Help fight world hunger-
http://www.hungersite.com
J D Leister
< snip >
> True... religion has little if anything to do with
> someone killing other people and terrorism in general.
> It is a means to an end used by manipulators to get
> people do do what they like.
>
> However if you actually got that chance to talk to some
> Muslims you'd find more than 50% (well actually closer
> to 80%) back Bin Laden...
But why?
Why do they feel so persecuted that they have to resort
to this? What's the world done to them?
Reg N. Pickford
Aaron T <tod...@ses.curtin.edu.au> wrote in message
news:gTlt7.103891$bY5.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
My understandaing is that he old testament, Torah and Qu'ran are the same
writings
Bevan Kirkland
his own means. Just Like so called Christian cult leaders manipulate
Christianity for their own means.
Bevan Kirkland
"Reg N. Pickford" <regn.p...@idl.net.au> wrote in message
news:1001838295.51017@bigboy...
Aaron T
You'd have to be them. In general they seem to have a very naive adn
childish view of the modern world. Its like anything though, terrorism is
just their way of fighting a war, and they fight because they feel
persecuted for USA controlling their region.
Go talk to a Muslim, you must know at least one. Ask them.. its long and
would require some knowledge of the past about 50 years in the region....
basically started around end of WW2..
>
Aaron T
No, they aren't :)
In actuality one of those texts has a parable about a man beating God, or
outwitting him more precisely. This is definitely not on in the other two
:)...
The Old Testamen and the Qu'ran are quite similar, Islam is almost a cousin
to Old Testamen Christianity in that a lot of its roots are within
Christianity.. Islam is quite a new religion.
>
>
>
Brock Ulfsen
Ask the Pope if Terrorism is OK in Ireland...
Ask the Queen if shooting civilians with rubber-coated iron cored rounds
is OK under Anglicanism...
--
= = = = = = = = = = = = =
Brock Ulfsen, wolf on the net.
A net alias used for
all the usual reasons.
ca...@nospamforme.com
<kirk...@pacific.net.au> wrote:
>Seems as though Osama bin Laden really is a cult leader changing Islam for
>his own means. Just Like so called Christian cult leaders manipulate
>Christianity for their own means.
>
>Bevan Kirkland
>
Snipped from an article written by Geoff Goldberg which first appeared
in NY Times July 25, 2000
About two hours east of the Khyber Pass, in the North-West Frontier
Province of Pakiston, sits a school called te Haqqania madrasa. A
madrasa is a Muslim religious seminary and Haqqania is one of the
bigger madrasas in Pakistan; the school enrolls more than 2.800
students. Tuition, room and board are free; the students are drawn
from the dire poor, and the madrasa raises its funds from wealthy
Pakistanis as well as from devout, and politically minded, Muslims in
the countries of the Persian Gulf. The students range in age from 8
and 9 to 30, sometimes 35.
In a typical class, the teachers sit on the floor with the boys,
reading to them in Arabic and the boys repeat what the teachers say.
What Westerners would think of as high-school-age and college-age
students are enrolled in an eight year course of study that focuses on
interpretation of the Koran and of the Hadith, the sayings of the
Prophet Muhmmad.
Very few of the students at the Haqqania madrasa study anything but
Islamic subjects. There are no world history course, nor math
course, or computer rooms or science labs at the madrasa. The
Haqqania madrasa is, in fact, a jihad factory.
This does not make it unique in Pakistan. There are one million
students styying in the country's 10,000 or so madrasas and militant
Islam is at the core of most of these schools.
Haqqania is notable not only because of its size, but also because it
has graduated more leaders of the Taliban than any other school in the
world including any in Afghanistan.
Classrooms were full when I vsited Haqqania. There were no tv's, no
radios that I could see. The students woke up before dawn to pray in
the madrasa's mosque. The dormintories were threadbare and filthy and
there was no cafeteria.
Suffice it to say, the students at the madrasa almost never see women.
There were no female teachers, cafeteria workers,no female presence
whatsoever.
The youngest boys were kept under lock and key in a three story
dormitory guarded by older students.
Haq's secret was not that the Haqqania madareasa is a training camp
for terrorists. These are poor and impressionable boys kept
entirely ignorant of the world and, for that matter, largely ignorant
of all but one interpretation of Islam.
They are the perfect jihad machines.
Pakistan also happens to be in posession of nuclear weapons. Many
Muslim radicals say they beleive these weapons should become part of
the arsenal of jihad.
It turns out that many of the Haqqania students, under careful
tutelage, now believe it too.
[It's a 2 page article but very interesting reading].
Cath
Reg N. Pickford
<ca...@nospamforme.com> wrote in message
news:3bb779c...@news.interconnect.net...
Obviously a very important aspect of the terrorist process which will need
to be addressed.
As the information of the WTC terrorists has been disseminated a really
amazing (AFAIC)
facet is that some of these people stayed quite a while in the USA and
apparantly received flght training
there. These people would have really been noticeable if they were
`third world, technology ignorant religious fanatics' Not to mention that a
year or two exposure
to western culture failed to get them to consider alternative methods of
protesting their cause.
>
> Pakistan also happens to be in posession of nuclear weapons. Many
> Muslim radicals say they beleive these weapons should become part of
> the arsenal of jihad.
> It turns out that many of the Haqqania students, under careful
> tutelage, now believe it too.
>
> [It's a 2 page article but very interesting reading].
Biologicals are more scary than Nuclear.
Aaron T
"Brock Ulfsen" <br...@tmba.design.net.au> wrote in message
news:3BB7561B...@tmba.design.net.au...
<snip>
> > Does the Koran really say terrorism is OK and that this
> > is the way to achieve your goals?
>
> Ask the Pope if Terrorism is OK in Ireland...
>
> Ask the Queen if shooting civilians with rubber-coated iron cored rounds
> is OK under Anglicanism...
>
Now really.. you would portray the IRA 'movement' (it is in no way a
'cause') in this way? HA!
It, like all terrorist groups is a money making group. The modern IRA is all
about money these days... the way they actually do it is to get innocent
people themselves. Then they say.. go kill this guy, or put a bomb in his
car, or steal this .. whatever they want... or we kill your family.
So in essence shooting of civilians by the British Police and Irish Specials
is no different to what the IRA does. Except the Brits do it in the name of
the majority of Irish and the IRA do it to make money.
lee
a Muslim or failing which killed. Is that not the basic belief?
Phil Hoenig
>Anyone who is not a Muslim is an infidel that needs to be converted to being
>a Muslim or failing which killed. Is that not the basic belief?
Of militant fundamentalist Muslims perhaps, but something similar could
be said about the basic belief of militant fundament Christians. You
can probably find somewhere in the Qu'ran that says that about
infidels, but there's also bits that say that People of the Book (i.e.,
Christians and Jews) are basically alright people.
Aaron T
"lee" <lbl...@tm.net.my> wrote in message news:3bb7f...@news.tm.net.my...
> Anyone who is not a Muslim is an infidel that needs to be converted to
being
> a Muslim or failing which killed. Is that not the basic belief?
No, what a stupid comment.
Most religions are tolerant of others. Islam categorises them, in this
way... Hinduism is evil as they dont' worship one God, Judaism is next as
they believe that they are equal to him, and have parables about them
outwhitting God, the best is Christianity, however Christians believe Jesus
to be the son of God, Baptists believe Jesus to be God on Earth.
Baptists are not well liked as God didn't have a son to Muslims. Jesus was
just another prophet to them.
The role of most religions is to make people see the light ie. convert them
to their religion. Its a very elitist thing if you like, there are 100's of
religions and sects and all of them think they are the only true correct
faith. Islam is like any of the others (except Hinduism... :)..) where they
will try to convert them.
Afghanistans approach of killing people trying to preach other religions
isn't based in religion it is a government decision. Fundamentalist groups
convert by death...
Chris
"Peter Wood" <p...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3BB5F368...@iprimus.com.au...
> J D Leister wrote:
>
> > alterity wrote:
> >
> > > I think you would get exactly the same outcome from
> > > a world assessment of Christianity.
> >
> > I would agree with you. No doubt Christianity has done many
> > many despicable things all in the name of God.
> >
> > They call it a Jihad in their world, and in the western world
> > we'd call something similar to this a Crusade. In fact in the
> > dark ages there was such a thing as the Crusades which was
> > sponsored and endorsed by the Catholic Church.
> >
> > You'll get no argument from me on this one. Religion is the
> > single most often used cause for conflict IMHO........
>
> Get real. When did you last see a crusader on a white horse? Christians
> don't crash planes into buildings.
Well obviously, our Crusaders never had planes back then. Actually, it was
their lack of technology that helped them fumble every Crusade embarked
upon.
Chris
MartinL
wrote:
>> > I would agree with you. No doubt Christianity has done many
>> > many despicable things all in the name of God.
Back in the middle ages that is call heritic..they kill for that
but the western culture has mature, that is why we now dont
mix religion with goverment. Islamic Nations is 2 centuries behind
on how to run a country and make it prosper without the help
of natural resources. The only muslim country that is successful
is Malaysia because it took the middle road.
>> >
>> > They call it a Jihad in their world, and in the western world
>> > we'd call something similar to this a Crusade.
The only problem with the term Jihad is every fanatical group is
hiding behind their god to do their deeds..this way the cowards
like to drag the whole muslim faith with them.
Is there a teaching in the Koran that says suicide for killing
innocent people will find a place for u in the next world??
I thought suicide alone is a sin in most religion.
Chris
Chris
"MartinL" <mar...@melbpc.org.au> wrote in message
news:3bc23969...@news.mel.connect.net.au...
Ben "The Lad"
Kill 100 non believers = Paradise + 10 virgins.
Kill 500 non believers = Paradise + 20 virgins.
Kill 1000 non believers = Paradise + 50 virgins + BMW.
Kill 5000 non believers = Paradise + 100 virgins + Ferrari.
Suicide = extra 10 virgins.
--
Ben "The Lad"
Sky Rider
<bent...@bigpond.com> write:
>Allah Point System:
Allah point finger at you and say...
... you one silly fella!
Seppo Renfors
MartinL wrote:
>
> On Tue, 9 Oct 2001 02:44:45 +1000, "Chris" <ga...@iprimus.com.au>
> wrote:
[correct attribution]
> > alterity wrote:
>
> >> > I would agree with you. No doubt Christianity has done many
> >> > many despicable things all in the name of God.
>
> Back in the middle ages that is call heritic..they kill for that
> but the western culture has mature, that is why we now dont
> mix religion with goverment. Islamic Nations is 2 centuries behind
> on how to run a country and make it prosper without the help
> of natural resources. The only muslim country that is successful
> is Malaysia because it took the middle road.
Turkey has been secular for a long time now. It matters not which
religion is a Government, such are never successful. Religion and
government should always be separated.
>
> >> >
> >> > They call it a Jihad in their world, and in the western world
> >> > we'd call something similar to this a Crusade.
>
> The only problem with the term Jihad is every fanatical group is
> hiding behind their god to do their deeds..this way the cowards
> like to drag the whole muslim faith with them.
A "jihad" is really a contest within one self, a fight to overcome the
evil within each that is "temptation". A fight to become a better
person.
>
> Is there a teaching in the Koran that says suicide for killing
> innocent people will find a place for u in the next world??
> I thought suicide alone is a sin in most religion.
As with most religious text, you certainly can read that into it -
however to do so, as I understand it, you would have to place yourself
in the shoes of Muhammad himself (who was a war lord - and a
"prophet"). I would think it be against the Koran to place oneself in
the privileged position of having Angle Gabriel (the most important
Angel in the Koran) communicating Allah's words to a mere follower of
Islam. According to Islam, Muhammad was the last prophet (and the
creator of Islam)!
--
SIR -Philosopher Unauthorised
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" Don't resent getting old. A great many are denied that privilege "
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